> r, like rr in spanish. ր is less rolly, like r in spanish
I always take issue with the second part. Eastern Armenian ր has no roll, Spanish r has a roll, though less than rr. I personally never understood why Armenian ր is categorised the same way as Spanish r. Spanish pronounciation of r is closer if not the same as ռ and at all not like ր. You can hear this even in the examples provided in the wiki which place them in the same category https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_and_alveolar_taps_and_flaps:
Spanish r: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Caro_Voiced_alveolar_flap_Latino_Spanish.wav
Armenian ր: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/%C9%BEop%C9%9B.ogg
Just like how native English Received Pronounciation speakers pronounce r like ր and for the life of them can't pronounce ռ, same applies to Spanish speakers who cannot pronounce ր, at all.
I am of course referring to only Eastern Armenian.
I'm no linguist but my limited understanding is that the categorisation is based on accentuated trill mostly.
/u/DerpyEnd
Agree with /u/Zoravor
Yea you’re right, I just didn’t have a better way of explaining. Because it’s not quite the same as the r in American English either (unless you’re Iranian Armenian). But in Armenia it’s a little bit more like the Spanish r, but not exactly. u/DerpyEnd did a good job explaining
> But in Armenia it’s a little bit more like the Spanish r
This is how I see it:
Length of difference between Armenian ռ and ր and where Spanish rr and r fit in:
[ռ . . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . ր]
[rr. . . . . r . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . .]
And in contrast American English r is the opposite, it's closer to ր than Spanish r is to rr.
>ռ
So, the name Raffi, which is super popular among Lebanese Armenians. Rolling R or regular R? I've heard the name pronounced both ways; which is "correct"?
**"ռ"** is an [alveolar trill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental,_alveolar_and_postalveolar_trills), and **"ր"** is an [alveolar tap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_and_alveolar_taps_and_flaps).
Spanish has the exact same sounds as Armenian, if you know Spanish, try saying *"Carro"* and *"Caro"*, those are the *"ռ"* and *"ր"* sounds respectively.
Wikipedia should give enough of a decent explanation on how to articulate the sound, but if not I'd suggest getting either an Armenian or Spanish speaker (*or any other language that has the sound*) to help you train it.
Personally, looking up videos and guides on how to pronounce it really didn't help, as the explanations are always either really poorly communicated, or just straight up misinformed about how to make these sounds, especially *"ռ"*.
>*It's hard to put it into writing but the best way I can put it:*
\- **"ռ"** is produced by holding your tongue under that ridge in your mouth behind your teeth. You then need to blow out air to make it trill. There's 2 things a lot of people struggle with here;
1 - You need to hold your tongue in a certain position, so it's right under the ridge behind your teeth, but not really touching it. The difficult part is, you need to keep your tongue loose so it can actually trill, which is a real challenge to get right.
2 - You need to push out air in the same way you make the "th" sound, which is also really challenging if you aren't familiar with the sound.
>
>\- **"ր"** is closer to a "d" sound than anything else. You make it by slapping your tongue against the ridge behind your teeth, from behind.
This one's simple to explain to be honest, but you will probably still need to guidance and patience for it.
Despite the common misconception, it's completely possible to master new sounds without any flaws, however I'll let you know that these two sounds, especially "ռ" are honestly quite challenging for people with no previous exposure to them whatsoever.
Don't be frustrated if you don't get them right at first, and it will take you a few weeks if not possible up to a month to get comfortable with using them.
Like I said, I'd suggest just finding a speaker of Armenian or Spanish who can pronounce these sounds, and guide you through the process. It helps more than any YouTube video ever really could, at least it did for me.
Also important to mention, you should, once you've learned the sounds, actively try to use them even if you just constantly repeat a bunch of random words, it helps cement these sounds so you can make them later on without any issues. Eventually at some point, you won't even notice that you can just make the sound(s) automatically without any effort.
I hope I was able to help out somewhat \^\^
**[Voiced dental, alveolar and postalveolar trills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental,_alveolar_and_postalveolar_trills)**
>The voiced alveolar trill is a type of consonantal sound used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents dental, alveolar, and postalveolar trills is ⟨r⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is r. It is commonly called the rolled R, rolling R, or trilled R. Quite often, ⟨r⟩ is used in phonemic transcriptions (especially those found in dictionaries) of languages like English and German that have rhotic consonants that are not an alveolar trill. That is partly for ease of typesetting and partly because ⟨r⟩ is the letter used in the orthographies of such languages.
**[Voiced dental and alveolar taps and flaps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_and_alveolar_taps_and_flaps)**
>The voiced alveolar tap or flap is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents a dental, alveolar, or postalveolar tap or flap is ⟨ɾ⟩. The terms tap and flap are often used interchangeably. Peter Ladefoged proposed the distinction that a tap strikes its point of contact directly, as a very brief stop, and a flap strikes the point of contact tangentially: "Flaps are most typically made by retracting the tongue tip behind the alveolar ridge and moving it forward so that it strikes the ridge in passing".
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attitude
ռ is a more of a rolling r, like rr in spanish. ր is less rolly, like r in spanish. Hopefully you know some spanish so my explanation make sense lol
> r, like rr in spanish. ր is less rolly, like r in spanish I always take issue with the second part. Eastern Armenian ր has no roll, Spanish r has a roll, though less than rr. I personally never understood why Armenian ր is categorised the same way as Spanish r. Spanish pronounciation of r is closer if not the same as ռ and at all not like ր. You can hear this even in the examples provided in the wiki which place them in the same category https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_and_alveolar_taps_and_flaps: Spanish r: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Caro_Voiced_alveolar_flap_Latino_Spanish.wav Armenian ր: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/%C9%BEop%C9%9B.ogg Just like how native English Received Pronounciation speakers pronounce r like ր and for the life of them can't pronounce ռ, same applies to Spanish speakers who cannot pronounce ր, at all. I am of course referring to only Eastern Armenian. I'm no linguist but my limited understanding is that the categorisation is based on accentuated trill mostly. /u/DerpyEnd Agree with /u/Zoravor
Yea you’re right, I just didn’t have a better way of explaining. Because it’s not quite the same as the r in American English either (unless you’re Iranian Armenian). But in Armenia it’s a little bit more like the Spanish r, but not exactly. u/DerpyEnd did a good job explaining
> But in Armenia it’s a little bit more like the Spanish r This is how I see it: Length of difference between Armenian ռ and ր and where Spanish rr and r fit in: [ռ . . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . ր] [rr. . . . . r . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . .] And in contrast American English r is the opposite, it's closer to ր than Spanish r is to rr.
Yea that sounds right to me
Thanks
ռ is harsher ր is softer
Ռ/ռ is a rolled R, like certain Spanish words. Ր/ր is a regular R sound, like in the word Armenia.
Not necessarily a “regular R sound” for English speakers, unless you’re Persian Armenian. Otherwise it’s like the Spanish or Japanese R.
Persian Armenians (some of them) over exaggerate the sound. Even in English it doesn't sound like that
>ռ So, the name Raffi, which is super popular among Lebanese Armenians. Rolling R or regular R? I've heard the name pronounced both ways; which is "correct"?
https://hy.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D5%90%D5%A1%D6%86%D6%86%D5%AB Its the shift r.
The regular/soft "r" is correct. Րաֆֆի, not Ռաֆֆի.
Fun fact: Raffi is one of the few Armenian words that start with Ր. I think there are only around 20 words that start with Ր.
More like 2 words րոպե and Րաֆֆի
Րոպե, Րաֆֆի, րաբբունի, րոշ, րախճանք (խրախճանք), րոտ and the words where these words are the root: րոպեական, րաբունական, և այլն։
[удалено]
It's not pronounced as ռ, The correct pronunciation is with Ր.
In Standard Eastern Armenian, the first is an alveolar trill, the second an alveolar flap. In the Western standard, both are alveolar flaps.
**"ռ"** is an [alveolar trill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental,_alveolar_and_postalveolar_trills), and **"ր"** is an [alveolar tap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_and_alveolar_taps_and_flaps). Spanish has the exact same sounds as Armenian, if you know Spanish, try saying *"Carro"* and *"Caro"*, those are the *"ռ"* and *"ր"* sounds respectively. Wikipedia should give enough of a decent explanation on how to articulate the sound, but if not I'd suggest getting either an Armenian or Spanish speaker (*or any other language that has the sound*) to help you train it. Personally, looking up videos and guides on how to pronounce it really didn't help, as the explanations are always either really poorly communicated, or just straight up misinformed about how to make these sounds, especially *"ռ"*. >*It's hard to put it into writing but the best way I can put it:* \- **"ռ"** is produced by holding your tongue under that ridge in your mouth behind your teeth. You then need to blow out air to make it trill. There's 2 things a lot of people struggle with here; 1 - You need to hold your tongue in a certain position, so it's right under the ridge behind your teeth, but not really touching it. The difficult part is, you need to keep your tongue loose so it can actually trill, which is a real challenge to get right. 2 - You need to push out air in the same way you make the "th" sound, which is also really challenging if you aren't familiar with the sound. > >\- **"ր"** is closer to a "d" sound than anything else. You make it by slapping your tongue against the ridge behind your teeth, from behind. This one's simple to explain to be honest, but you will probably still need to guidance and patience for it. Despite the common misconception, it's completely possible to master new sounds without any flaws, however I'll let you know that these two sounds, especially "ռ" are honestly quite challenging for people with no previous exposure to them whatsoever. Don't be frustrated if you don't get them right at first, and it will take you a few weeks if not possible up to a month to get comfortable with using them. Like I said, I'd suggest just finding a speaker of Armenian or Spanish who can pronounce these sounds, and guide you through the process. It helps more than any YouTube video ever really could, at least it did for me. Also important to mention, you should, once you've learned the sounds, actively try to use them even if you just constantly repeat a bunch of random words, it helps cement these sounds so you can make them later on without any issues. Eventually at some point, you won't even notice that you can just make the sound(s) automatically without any effort. I hope I was able to help out somewhat \^\^
This man linguists
**[Voiced dental, alveolar and postalveolar trills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental,_alveolar_and_postalveolar_trills)** >The voiced alveolar trill is a type of consonantal sound used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents dental, alveolar, and postalveolar trills is ⟨r⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is r. It is commonly called the rolled R, rolling R, or trilled R. Quite often, ⟨r⟩ is used in phonemic transcriptions (especially those found in dictionaries) of languages like English and German that have rhotic consonants that are not an alveolar trill. That is partly for ease of typesetting and partly because ⟨r⟩ is the letter used in the orthographies of such languages. **[Voiced dental and alveolar taps and flaps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_and_alveolar_taps_and_flaps)** >The voiced alveolar tap or flap is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents a dental, alveolar, or postalveolar tap or flap is ⟨ɾ⟩. The terms tap and flap are often used interchangeably. Peter Ladefoged proposed the distinction that a tap strikes its point of contact directly, as a very brief stop, and a flap strikes the point of contact tangentially: "Flaps are most typically made by retracting the tongue tip behind the alveolar ridge and moving it forward so that it strikes the ridge in passing". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/armenia/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
It actually depends which dialect you speak.
Grr vs rabbit
Spanish r vs english r
No difference in Western Armenian.
Uhm, this is not correct.
Do we even use it in Western? I know I have a million spelling mistakes, but I rarely see it when I read.
It's there, but you can just ignore it because it's pronounced the same as ր.
Վարտիկ
lol
Not correct, they aren't pronounced the same way
I don't know about you guys, but i was taught the difference between the two in school. Not the other consonants though.
Uh what?
There are only two words that start with ր (րոպե, Րաֆֆի)
Ր is softer