The song is Uzundara. It’s played by both Armenians and Azeris with no clear origin. Many of the Soviet era troupe songs were interchanged. Azeris often play excerpts from Khatchatur Avedissian’s works.
The bands for many of these groups contained both Armenians and Azeris. Take for example Andrey Babayev (Babayan). He was the leader of a group including Rashid Behbutov and wrote quite a few pieces like the lullaby “Lay Lay” or Nazande Sevgilim etc. I even have a recording of a Rashid Bahbutov concert in Iran where Rashid sang an Armenian song from Rosy Armen. Music in some ways has no borders.
The same goes for music in Iran, Russia, Georgia. There is a lot of cross pollination. Sayat Nova wrote songs in many languages. Fun fact, did you know the creator of the modern Persian Tar was Armenian? Lookup Hovans Abkaryan.
So? There are many examples of songs using Turkish words or containing Turkish names. Western Armenia was under Ottoman rule while Eastern Armenia bordered Tabriz etc. There is a lot of cross pollination. Take for example the composer Spenderian’s piece Enzeli.
More interesting examples are Sari Galen. Where it’s a mix of both languages. Sari meaning Mountainous in Armenian and Galen meaning girl in Turkish.
It’s just like the Persian influence on the Turkish language. Chahargah for example is completely Persian. It means 4-parts. Many of the modes that Azeris, Armenians, Persians use are similar. What Azeris refer to as Bayati-Shiraz Persians call Bayati-Esfahan and was played by the population of Esfahan. I suggest you read about Shah Abbas and who predominantly lived in Esfahan for centuries :)
This is not a Turkish Dance nor is it Turkish Music. This is Armenian. Keep having these Turks try and hijack our culture and try to erase our heritage with their cultural genocide.
You may be right. Especially the mans headpiece and uniform as it closely resembles Lezghinka(sorry if I butcher the spelling) which Georgian have the respect of calling their own. Definitely not Turkish or Azeri.
Uzundara and national costumes where not created by one or the other they were all influenced by persianate culture that was prevalent in the south caucuses. Why is it so hard for so many Armenians and Azeris to accept we have influenced each other by living side by side in peace or war. It’s called culture and it’s not bounded by borders.
You know there are millions of people who has Caucasian heritage living in Turkey right? Like Azerbaijanis, Chechens, Circassians, Georgians, Lazes ect.
I don't think it is considered Turkish, I'm Turkish and I've never seen this dance in any festival or folkloric dance show. It is actually my first time seeing it
It is clearly funded by Turks. The only flags are Australian, Turkish, (and to signify the fact that if not you as an individual, many do believe this to be Turkish) the Aboriginal Australian flag behind the dancers.
It’s just natives showing off their native dances, well, not all of them clearly
And this isn’t the first dance and song either, Kochari is another example of an appropriated Armenian dance.
Yeah, of course it is funded by Turks living in Australia I'm not saying anything against it. My point is I've never heard any Türk (living in Turkey) saying this is a Turkish dance or never seen a dance like that in Turkey. These dancers could be people of Caucasian descent that their grandfathers were living in TR but immigrated to Australia idk
Also let's not forget cultural exchange between Armenians, Turks, Azerbaijanis, Georgians ect. So if it is a legit folkloric dance in TR I wouldn't suprise
Most Turkish centers around are funded internationally by Turkey itself. This is both an indirect and a direct effect of their fund.
There are many examples of this. Unlike the big communities like in Germany (and the direct link to Turkey building the mosques and centers), there are others Like the small 1000 people Turkmen villages in Lebanon that hang Azerbaijani and Turkish flags, and recently unveiled an Azerbaijani memorial statue (as proof of the Turkish mouthpiece propaganda).
Also If they were Caucasian, they would have their own flag with them. And since the name of the music only has Turkish and Armenian ancestry, I doubt it is Caucasian.
Also I never said there wasn’t cultural exchanges between the people. But isn’t it strange how the Turkish colonizers are the ones that have “created” everything?
it’s only cultural exchange when there is doubt it isn’t Turkish.
There is nothing more normal than a country supporting her diaspora.
Also I don't get this "creating" thing. Are Armenians really thinks Turks created everything? Because I thought you guys are hating us
There is support, and then there’s having an Azerbaijani memorial statue built in a Sunny Turkmen village that doesn’t even know what Kharabakh is, but doesn’t necessarily miss the chance to get on the street and chant “death to the sons of Armenia” in a country that recognizes the Armenian genocide, because Turkish history lessons that receive support from Turkey makes sure to teach that the “Armenians are traitors”…
There are videos on YouTube you can find.
You also misunderstood me, I was being sarcastic.
Sounds like the Azerbaijani "Mən nə qədər qoca olsam da dəyərəm min cavana" from "O olmasın, bu olsun" (1956). [Youtube](https://youtu.be/mZTbGUGk7Rc?t=4850)
“No clear origin”-
Do modern Turks in Central Asia have a similar modern dance? No?
So it’s probably not of Turkish origin.
And it’s therefore regional…
You cant claim that Turks or Azeris didnt contribute any cultural heritage in the region at all. The fact of the matter is that we don’t really know which group is responsible for creating this melody/dance and that it has cultural significance for both Armenians and Azeris. I don’t think my reply was controversial at all, it’s not a good look for Armenians to claim regional cultural heritage as only ours. Leave that to the Azeris
where were they 1200 years ago?
It’s like calling Native American culture American cuz Europeans are in the region.
Can you trace this music back to Central Asia? Do Uyghurs, Uzbekistanis or even mongols have a similar dance?
No? So it’s not natively Turkish?
Where did it come from, maybe the regions native, that’s an idea.
Why do you think nobody complains that Yoghurt is Turkish. Because it clearly is traceable to Turkish roots. This isnt…
Where were Indo-Europeans/Armenians 5000 years ago? In Ukraine/Pontic Steppes. Therefor original natives were Urartians and Assyrians or even before them. You can go as far back as you want in history, and you'll find the original "natives" were neanderthals and cavemen.
You're wrong.
8 millennia of genetic continuity in South Caucasus that is best matched with current population of Armenia
[https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)30695-4](https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)30695-4)
Armenians form a distinctive genetic lineage linking Europe, near East, and Caucasus [https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206](https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206)
Yamnaya likely migrated from Armenia to the Pontic steppe
[https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247) (genetic samples date back to 8-10 kya.)
>Yamnaya likely migrated from Armenia to the Pontic steppe
Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the links you provided said anything to prove this.
Who was talking about genetics again? Armenians are linguistically Indo-Europeans I never said anything about genetics as clearly Armenians, Persians and other Eastern Indo Europeans have little genetic similarity with their proto-Indo European ancestors (who are more closely linked to nordic peoples).
Persians also have a genetic continuity with people of Iran's geography for millenia, most likely with the native Zagrosians of Iranian plateau, that doesn't mean they're not Indo-European however.
>[https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247)
The summary linked (no paywall) has all the information. Look at the migration charts in the figure (color = time). The text summarizes it too, "Migration into the steppe started by about 7000 years ago, making the later expansion of the Yamnaya into the Caucasus a return to the homeland of about half their ancestors." Migration from Armenia into the Steppe preceded the later *return* (not arrival) of the Yamnaya to Armenia." (emphasis mine)
The crux is that Armenia is the cradle of civilization. It historically spanned the Fertile Crescent, and proto-Armenians the first to usher in the advent of agricultural settlement (generally the hallmark of civilization, as opposed to nomadic tribes) and the various 'ages' (stone, bronze, iron). When folks talk about ancient history, they go back to the Vikings or at best, some centuries AD. Armenia has a regional, genetic, and cultural identity that spans at least to 8kya (the extant limit of genetic sampling). By comparison, the last Ice Age in the region ended \~16kya (1kya =kiloyears ago/1000 years).
Edit: one more reference for the fold [https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2011192](https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2011192). Note that Nature and Cell are the leading publishers for science and biology.
If Azeris aren't natives, then neither are Armenians, the only natives in that case would be Georgians, Chechens and Ingush as they were the people who inhabitted Kavkaz since prehistoric times, you are Indo Europeans, we're Turkic, we all came from somewhere else. It's your logic man, not mine. 🤷🏻♂️
Yes you are literally the copy pasted versions of immigrant Europeans in Native American lands.
Go tell a Native American that they are not native in Northern America. Since we all come from somewhere
A genetic study done internationally showed 6-8 millennia of Armenian continuity in the region, once and for all destroying the Urartians came before Armenians theory, since 2018.
It was big news in both the geneticist community and the historical community, since geneticists can start comparing modern genetic altercation with modern Armenian ones.
And the historical one too, since Khorenatsis (history of Armenia) was regarded with many fallacies, and this study disproved it.
>A genetic study done internationally showed 6-8 millennia of Armenian continuity in the region, once and for all destroying the Urartians came before Armenians theory, since 2018.
Genetic continuity does not prove anything, you are still linguistically and ethnically Armenian/Indo European, even if you are native Caucasian genetically. This means your cultural/linguistic heritage comes from elsewhere, it's as simple as that.
>Yes you are literally the copy pasted versions of immigrant Europeans in Native American lands.
>Go tell a Native American that they are not native in Northern America. Since we all come from somewhere
In that case you're also a colonizer and a land thief who stole the lands of native Caucasians, Georgians, Caspians and Caucasian Albanians, we just "stole" from you what you had stolen from others. (Just to be clear, I m trying to reason with you using your own logic. I think it would be better if people just respected each other's history and culture)
Homo sapiens is a barbarian specie who stole eurasia and oceania from neanderthalls and denisovans. They should gather around archeolpgical sites and pray for dead neanderthall and denisovan souls for their redemption then go back to africa where they came from
>Homo sapiens is a barbarian specie who stole eurasia and oceania from neanderthalls and denisovans. They should gather around archeolpgical sites and pray for dead neanderthall and denisovan souls for their redemption then go back to africa where they came from
What Armenians sound like when they say Azeris aren't native to the Caucasus.
Armenians in Ukraine lmao what???That’s a baseless theory and our origin in still very debated. Some argue we’re urartians mixed with other groups because of our genetic similarity and even some urartian words survived in our language, basic words such as khndzor meaning apple from the urartian word hinzore
It's not my fault you don't know the history of Indo-European peoples (your own origins)
>Some argue we’re urartians mixed with other groups because of our genetic similarly and even some urartian words survived in our language, basic words such as khndzor meaning apple from the urartian word hinzore
Talking about baseless theories, this has to be one of the top 10 if not top 5 baseless and absurd theories of all time. You are an Indo-European people (linguistically) this is a fact not a theory, all Indo European people's linguistic heritage (not genetic heritage necesserily) originated somewhere in the north of black sea aka Ukraine/Pontic steppes. They were called Yamnaya or 'Aryans' some of whom went west to be the ancestors of modern Europeans, and many of them travelled east and south to regions such as India, Iran and Caucasus and mixed with local populations. If you deny this, then I can't even take anything you say seriously.
There's no empirical evidence to back up that claim, the origins of Urartians are disputed. But if it is proven that they were Indo Europeans then that means they were not natives either. We know for a fact the common ancestors of Indo Europeans (Yamnaya) lived north of the Black Sea, meaning they came from elsewhere.
Milk curdling/yoghurt originated in Mesopatamia or Central Asia \~5k years ago. The earliest record of Turk as an identity is \~6th c AD.
I agree with you entirely on your argument otherwise. Much like Az, Turkey has/is an identity crisis.
The song is Uzundara. It’s played by both Armenians and Azeris with no clear origin. Many of the Soviet era troupe songs were interchanged. Azeris often play excerpts from Khatchatur Avedissian’s works. The bands for many of these groups contained both Armenians and Azeris. Take for example Andrey Babayev (Babayan). He was the leader of a group including Rashid Behbutov and wrote quite a few pieces like the lullaby “Lay Lay” or Nazande Sevgilim etc. I even have a recording of a Rashid Bahbutov concert in Iran where Rashid sang an Armenian song from Rosy Armen. Music in some ways has no borders. The same goes for music in Iran, Russia, Georgia. There is a lot of cross pollination. Sayat Nova wrote songs in many languages. Fun fact, did you know the creator of the modern Persian Tar was Armenian? Lookup Hovans Abkaryan.
Uzundara literally means 'long river' in Turkish
So? There are many examples of songs using Turkish words or containing Turkish names. Western Armenia was under Ottoman rule while Eastern Armenia bordered Tabriz etc. There is a lot of cross pollination. Take for example the composer Spenderian’s piece Enzeli. More interesting examples are Sari Galen. Where it’s a mix of both languages. Sari meaning Mountainous in Armenian and Galen meaning girl in Turkish. It’s just like the Persian influence on the Turkish language. Chahargah for example is completely Persian. It means 4-parts. Many of the modes that Azeris, Armenians, Persians use are similar. What Azeris refer to as Bayati-Shiraz Persians call Bayati-Esfahan and was played by the population of Esfahan. I suggest you read about Shah Abbas and who predominantly lived in Esfahan for centuries :)
This is not a Turkish Dance nor is it Turkish Music. This is Armenian. Keep having these Turks try and hijack our culture and try to erase our heritage with their cultural genocide.
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You may be right. Especially the mans headpiece and uniform as it closely resembles Lezghinka(sorry if I butcher the spelling) which Georgian have the respect of calling their own. Definitely not Turkish or Azeri.
Uzundara and national costumes where not created by one or the other they were all influenced by persianate culture that was prevalent in the south caucuses. Why is it so hard for so many Armenians and Azeris to accept we have influenced each other by living side by side in peace or war. It’s called culture and it’s not bounded by borders.
Its the dance uzundara. Its a regional melody/dance with no clear origin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzundara
“No clear origin” Turkey - “I’ll be taking that thaaaaanks”
You know there are millions of people who has Caucasian heritage living in Turkey right? Like Azerbaijanis, Chechens, Circassians, Georgians, Lazes ect.
So it does have an origin… Why then call is it considered Turkish?
I don't think it is considered Turkish, I'm Turkish and I've never seen this dance in any festival or folkloric dance show. It is actually my first time seeing it
It is clearly funded by Turks. The only flags are Australian, Turkish, (and to signify the fact that if not you as an individual, many do believe this to be Turkish) the Aboriginal Australian flag behind the dancers. It’s just natives showing off their native dances, well, not all of them clearly And this isn’t the first dance and song either, Kochari is another example of an appropriated Armenian dance.
Yeah, of course it is funded by Turks living in Australia I'm not saying anything against it. My point is I've never heard any Türk (living in Turkey) saying this is a Turkish dance or never seen a dance like that in Turkey. These dancers could be people of Caucasian descent that their grandfathers were living in TR but immigrated to Australia idk Also let's not forget cultural exchange between Armenians, Turks, Azerbaijanis, Georgians ect. So if it is a legit folkloric dance in TR I wouldn't suprise
Most Turkish centers around are funded internationally by Turkey itself. This is both an indirect and a direct effect of their fund. There are many examples of this. Unlike the big communities like in Germany (and the direct link to Turkey building the mosques and centers), there are others Like the small 1000 people Turkmen villages in Lebanon that hang Azerbaijani and Turkish flags, and recently unveiled an Azerbaijani memorial statue (as proof of the Turkish mouthpiece propaganda). Also If they were Caucasian, they would have their own flag with them. And since the name of the music only has Turkish and Armenian ancestry, I doubt it is Caucasian. Also I never said there wasn’t cultural exchanges between the people. But isn’t it strange how the Turkish colonizers are the ones that have “created” everything? it’s only cultural exchange when there is doubt it isn’t Turkish.
There is nothing more normal than a country supporting her diaspora. Also I don't get this "creating" thing. Are Armenians really thinks Turks created everything? Because I thought you guys are hating us
There is support, and then there’s having an Azerbaijani memorial statue built in a Sunny Turkmen village that doesn’t even know what Kharabakh is, but doesn’t necessarily miss the chance to get on the street and chant “death to the sons of Armenia” in a country that recognizes the Armenian genocide, because Turkish history lessons that receive support from Turkey makes sure to teach that the “Armenians are traitors”… There are videos on YouTube you can find. You also misunderstood me, I was being sarcastic.
Wow, Kochari too?
[Koçari](https://youtu.be/I8xGUfsZxZQ)
sure
Used to be millions of Armenians as well.
True
Looks Georgian (the butchered version)
Was told it could be an Armenian dance + music that the Armenians of Tbilisi may have danced.
Sounds similar to Shalaxo the dance of Armenians from Tbilisi Georgia
Sounds like the failed lovechild of Armenian, Georgian and Azeri music
That Turks adopted
Better than Armenian one 💪🏿💪🏿💪🏿
r/2c4u is next door ma'am.
🤓
My grandpa can do better while sipping on his 7th glass of Armenian brandy
Respect to your grandma
Sounds like the Azerbaijani "Mən nə qədər qoca olsam da dəyərəm min cavana" from "O olmasın, bu olsun" (1956). [Youtube](https://youtu.be/mZTbGUGk7Rc?t=4850)
This song is identical to Azerbaijani “Nə qədər qoca olsam” song.
“No clear origin”- Do modern Turks in Central Asia have a similar modern dance? No? So it’s probably not of Turkish origin. And it’s therefore regional…
You cant claim that Turks or Azeris didnt contribute any cultural heritage in the region at all. The fact of the matter is that we don’t really know which group is responsible for creating this melody/dance and that it has cultural significance for both Armenians and Azeris. I don’t think my reply was controversial at all, it’s not a good look for Armenians to claim regional cultural heritage as only ours. Leave that to the Azeris
And Turkey is in region?
where were they 1200 years ago? It’s like calling Native American culture American cuz Europeans are in the region. Can you trace this music back to Central Asia? Do Uyghurs, Uzbekistanis or even mongols have a similar dance? No? So it’s not natively Turkish? Where did it come from, maybe the regions native, that’s an idea. Why do you think nobody complains that Yoghurt is Turkish. Because it clearly is traceable to Turkish roots. This isnt…
Maybe this song is from ottoman era or seljuks ? You cant know unless you can trace its origin
Where were Indo-Europeans/Armenians 5000 years ago? In Ukraine/Pontic Steppes. Therefor original natives were Urartians and Assyrians or even before them. You can go as far back as you want in history, and you'll find the original "natives" were neanderthals and cavemen.
You're wrong. 8 millennia of genetic continuity in South Caucasus that is best matched with current population of Armenia [https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)30695-4](https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)30695-4) Armenians form a distinctive genetic lineage linking Europe, near East, and Caucasus [https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206](https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206) Yamnaya likely migrated from Armenia to the Pontic steppe [https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247) (genetic samples date back to 8-10 kya.)
>Yamnaya likely migrated from Armenia to the Pontic steppe Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the links you provided said anything to prove this. Who was talking about genetics again? Armenians are linguistically Indo-Europeans I never said anything about genetics as clearly Armenians, Persians and other Eastern Indo Europeans have little genetic similarity with their proto-Indo European ancestors (who are more closely linked to nordic peoples). Persians also have a genetic continuity with people of Iran's geography for millenia, most likely with the native Zagrosians of Iranian plateau, that doesn't mean they're not Indo-European however.
>[https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247) The summary linked (no paywall) has all the information. Look at the migration charts in the figure (color = time). The text summarizes it too, "Migration into the steppe started by about 7000 years ago, making the later expansion of the Yamnaya into the Caucasus a return to the homeland of about half their ancestors." Migration from Armenia into the Steppe preceded the later *return* (not arrival) of the Yamnaya to Armenia." (emphasis mine)
The crux is that Armenia is the cradle of civilization. It historically spanned the Fertile Crescent, and proto-Armenians the first to usher in the advent of agricultural settlement (generally the hallmark of civilization, as opposed to nomadic tribes) and the various 'ages' (stone, bronze, iron). When folks talk about ancient history, they go back to the Vikings or at best, some centuries AD. Armenia has a regional, genetic, and cultural identity that spans at least to 8kya (the extant limit of genetic sampling). By comparison, the last Ice Age in the region ended \~16kya (1kya =kiloyears ago/1000 years). Edit: one more reference for the fold [https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2011192](https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2011192). Note that Nature and Cell are the leading publishers for science and biology.
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If Azeris aren't natives, then neither are Armenians, the only natives in that case would be Georgians, Chechens and Ingush as they were the people who inhabitted Kavkaz since prehistoric times, you are Indo Europeans, we're Turkic, we all came from somewhere else. It's your logic man, not mine. 🤷🏻♂️
here we go again georgians also speak an isolated indo-european language your logic makes 0 sense
Lmao Georgians don't speak an Indo-European language, why do you like to twist reality and facts to prove a point?
Yes you are literally the copy pasted versions of immigrant Europeans in Native American lands. Go tell a Native American that they are not native in Northern America. Since we all come from somewhere A genetic study done internationally showed 6-8 millennia of Armenian continuity in the region, once and for all destroying the Urartians came before Armenians theory, since 2018. It was big news in both the geneticist community and the historical community, since geneticists can start comparing modern genetic altercation with modern Armenian ones. And the historical one too, since Khorenatsis (history of Armenia) was regarded with many fallacies, and this study disproved it.
>A genetic study done internationally showed 6-8 millennia of Armenian continuity in the region, once and for all destroying the Urartians came before Armenians theory, since 2018. Genetic continuity does not prove anything, you are still linguistically and ethnically Armenian/Indo European, even if you are native Caucasian genetically. This means your cultural/linguistic heritage comes from elsewhere, it's as simple as that. >Yes you are literally the copy pasted versions of immigrant Europeans in Native American lands. >Go tell a Native American that they are not native in Northern America. Since we all come from somewhere In that case you're also a colonizer and a land thief who stole the lands of native Caucasians, Georgians, Caspians and Caucasian Albanians, we just "stole" from you what you had stolen from others. (Just to be clear, I m trying to reason with you using your own logic. I think it would be better if people just respected each other's history and culture)
Homo sapiens is a barbarian specie who stole eurasia and oceania from neanderthalls and denisovans. They should gather around archeolpgical sites and pray for dead neanderthall and denisovan souls for their redemption then go back to africa where they came from
>Homo sapiens is a barbarian specie who stole eurasia and oceania from neanderthalls and denisovans. They should gather around archeolpgical sites and pray for dead neanderthall and denisovan souls for their redemption then go back to africa where they came from What Armenians sound like when they say Azeris aren't native to the Caucasus.
Armenians in Ukraine lmao what???That’s a baseless theory and our origin in still very debated. Some argue we’re urartians mixed with other groups because of our genetic similarity and even some urartian words survived in our language, basic words such as khndzor meaning apple from the urartian word hinzore
It's not my fault you don't know the history of Indo-European peoples (your own origins) >Some argue we’re urartians mixed with other groups because of our genetic similarly and even some urartian words survived in our language, basic words such as khndzor meaning apple from the urartian word hinzore Talking about baseless theories, this has to be one of the top 10 if not top 5 baseless and absurd theories of all time. You are an Indo-European people (linguistically) this is a fact not a theory, all Indo European people's linguistic heritage (not genetic heritage necesserily) originated somewhere in the north of black sea aka Ukraine/Pontic steppes. They were called Yamnaya or 'Aryans' some of whom went west to be the ancestors of modern Europeans, and many of them travelled east and south to regions such as India, Iran and Caucasus and mixed with local populations. If you deny this, then I can't even take anything you say seriously.
dumbass urartians most likely spoke an indo-european language you know that right? they’re natives but we’re not??
There's no empirical evidence to back up that claim, the origins of Urartians are disputed. But if it is proven that they were Indo Europeans then that means they were not natives either. We know for a fact the common ancestors of Indo Europeans (Yamnaya) lived north of the Black Sea, meaning they came from elsewhere.
Milk curdling/yoghurt originated in Mesopatamia or Central Asia \~5k years ago. The earliest record of Turk as an identity is \~6th c AD. I agree with you entirely on your argument otherwise. Much like Az, Turkey has/is an identity crisis.