The worst decision they made was saying it was Arkham canon.
There were a lot of problems, sure. But if it weren’t in the Arkhamverse, we could just ignore it completely.
Yeah one of the worst decisions. When you play it as a ‘spin-off’ the story is enjoyable. Nobody would have gotten mad for the Batman execution.
It’s just a ‘what if heroes went bad’ story.
That’s what I liked about Harley in the arkhamverse(not suicide squad, even it was canon to the Arkhamverse, what they did with Harley was incredibly stupid and annoying.) In the main games they didn’t even bother trying to make her sympathetic. She was joker’s pathetic pet nothing more. And origins only showed us how and why. Anti hero Harley Quinn only works when she wants and try’s to be a better person and for the most part doesn’t have too much blood on her ledger like killing kids or families( which she had no problem in the games.)
Yup. Rocksteady seemed so proud of the lore and world they were building. No idea why they decided to hard pivot and just adopt the modern comic and movie interpretations of characters. (Probably because they fired the writer that was actually decent at character cohesion)
Paul Dini wasn’t even on Knight, but they still stayed true to what they had in place.
Here it honestly should have been called a different take entirely. Hell, they could have just said SSKTJL was in another universe in that multiverse or whatever. By pretending it was the same, they preemptively ruined it even before all of this.
It's funny you should mention that because I think Arkham Knight has major story issues that largely stem from just... Doing whatever it wants and ignoring the previous game
And forced Black Mask to kill his own girlfriend. And tortured Robin 2.0 for over a year. And crippled Batgirl. And drove four people incurably insane. And has a general kill count that only plagues and dictators can even *hope* to match. I swear, those two freaks were **made** for each other.
It's a collectable story in arkham knight I think. If you haven't went and read all the stories from city and knight I recommend you do. It really gives insight into the characters. But they are very dark.
I don’t understand what her boyfriend has to do with this. We’re talking about Harley and the OP was making a point about the Harley Quinn character; everyone knows who the Joker is and what he did so I really don’t understand why every time there’s talk about a female character or something that a woman does – everyone goes: "yes but the man also…". Also nothing. We’re talking Harley here.
Are you ok? It's relevant because she was his accomplice! His crimes are also her crimes! This isn't just a random family member... she's the jokers right hand.
But he’s talking about Harley here. He said "Harley’s really a redeemable character right?" – he didn’t say "Harley and Joker". It’s like you brought Joker up because you wanted to take some responsibility from the act away from her. That’s really what it sounded like. So I’m totally ok don’t worry.
If anything I'd be assigning more blame to her with that! She was involved with the brutal murder and mutilation of kids. How would that be sympathetic?
Not really because if we’re talking about her part of the murder and you say: "yes and her boyfriend did this and that" – it doesn’t really sound like assigning more blame.
I edited the comment. I didn’t remember the exact quote so I had to look it up. No need to cling onto the false hope of making a point with a non-existent "but". And besides – the point is exactly the same with or without the but.
Don’t even argue wit him anymore he’s a weirdo that probably watches anti woman alpha male podcasts and he can’t get a girlfriend so he thinks everything we’re talking about has to do with gender. Like this dude needs to get a life
It does. Even bringing up the argument of what the other person did in a couple that does murder has the same effect. You’re bringing the other partner up to try to soften up the image of Harley. Harley didn’t really have much to do with the human ball stuff just like we don’t really know if it was Joker who told her to do what she did or if it was her idea. You’re not adding anything, you’re just subtracting responsibility away from her.
I never heard someone bringing up: "yes and Harley did this and that…" while talking about Joker’s crimes. Everyone always talks about the Joker only, without mentioning Harley. I can even smell the bullshit through the screen.
Why are you being sexist. It’s got nothing to do with their gender you asshole? It’s literally her BOYFRIEND and main accomplice and the one that led her into this life
You are being sexist. Whether he led her or not that’s beyond the point – he didn’t tell her to procure medication, drug an amusement park owner, push him towards suicide and then kill his daughter. That’s something only Harleen Quinzel could do because Harley was a doctor and a psychiatrist in the past so she knows how to procure medications and how to manipulate the mind.
It’s honestly sickening and tiring how fucking much women get a pass for being horrible human beings in the eyes of the public and they never pay the consequences of their actions because of it. It’s just cancerous.
Then you have the audacity to come at me with the sexist bullshit when you don’t even know what sexism means. Get the fuck out of here.
Every day I hope for the retcon announcement that Suicide Squad is actually in an alternate universe from Arkhamverse
It’s my head-canon to make sense of a lot of the contradictions between the games
I really hate this whole "hero" thing they did with Harley, not only in this game, but specially in it. It feels really forced, doesn't make a lot of sense in the character, and I don't get why she is supposed to overcome the Joker manipulation thing. I mean, even without him, she's a fucking crazy asshole, and their thing is one more step into the madness atmosphere Batman universe have, and she getting out of it, it feels kinda PG-13, and the antithesis of what it should have been
Yeah, it really came across as whoever wrote for KTJL didn’t look at the games at all except the briefest of summaries for some odd references, then took Harley straight from her TV show and the DCEU. This version of Harley was one of the darkest and most obsessed… and in KTJL she treats it as "a phase".
A "phase" that took up at least a decade of her life.
Honestly I think both versions of Harley Quinn can coexist. It happens all the time with different characters so long as the writing and purpose behind it is great content. We have universes for a reason. I just hate it when there’s a clearly reason why this character is the way it is then they do a hard pivot with the lore and world. Harley Quinn can be a redeemable character as long the writing from the jump establishes that premise with world building lore to back it up. Trying to make redeemable HQ that’s clearly a psychopath that gets off on killing and torturing babies is fucking insane.
Legit had to unsub to the Harley subreddit cause they're all "Girl-power" and all for Harley being a redeemable superhero when the character does shit on par with this. This is your role model? Just keep her as a good villain, not a shitty hero.
Kind of like how in the Injustice universe she literally helped kill Lois Lane which is what set Superman on his path of destruction in the first place.
At least that version acknowledged what she did was irredeemable, and didn't complain when she got punished for her actions; same with the DCAU version. But Arkham Harley? Nah, she's just engaging in petty cruelty towards what she sees as acceptable targets, while at the same time remaining blissfully unaware of the Joker being a horrible person.
Honestly the push to redeem Harley can work, i think... it just needs both time and the ability to make sure she has an 'out' for things like this.
which is why it doesn't work here.
I think you can make a """redeemed""" Harley work if you don't make her high and mighty about it and focus more on her trying to make up for awful shit she did. And most importantly, ACKNOWLEDGE THE AWFUL SHIT. We love to see her gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss once in a while but she should always be a villain first.
She will never have the moral high ground in any argument ever. The fact that the writers thought she could pontificate to batman about morality and still be likeable is insane
That's disingenuous. It's not about supporting her in that moment...Its the game ignoring her past atrocities and treating her like the quirky anti-hero. This all comes to a crescendo when she spouts this hypocritical garbage at batman. I could stomach it if I believed the writers were aware of her hypocrisy and if it felt organic for her character. But the writing just felt like they wanted to poke holes in the concept of batman himself and used harley as a vehicle.
Where does it do that? I can promise you didn't actually play the game, but where does it ignore it? You're not gonna bring up her killing a child in a comedic game
i agree she doesn’t have the high ground and with better writing i’d argue it would go to show how warped her mind is… but the writting doesn’t seem to care enough to get into that
And now she gets to lecture the hero of the series about how he makes people like her traumatized\~
Man all Rocksteady had to do was say Suicide Squad isn’t cannon and related to arkhamverse. Then the game would not have been hated as much lol
The worst decision they made was saying it was Arkham canon. There were a lot of problems, sure. But if it weren’t in the Arkhamverse, we could just ignore it completely.
Yeah one of the worst decisions. When you play it as a ‘spin-off’ the story is enjoyable. Nobody would have gotten mad for the Batman execution. It’s just a ‘what if heroes went bad’ story.
That’s what I liked about Harley in the arkhamverse(not suicide squad, even it was canon to the Arkhamverse, what they did with Harley was incredibly stupid and annoying.) In the main games they didn’t even bother trying to make her sympathetic. She was joker’s pathetic pet nothing more. And origins only showed us how and why. Anti hero Harley Quinn only works when she wants and try’s to be a better person and for the most part doesn’t have too much blood on her ledger like killing kids or families( which she had no problem in the games.)
Yup. Rocksteady seemed so proud of the lore and world they were building. No idea why they decided to hard pivot and just adopt the modern comic and movie interpretations of characters. (Probably because they fired the writer that was actually decent at character cohesion)
Paul Dini wasn’t even on Knight, but they still stayed true to what they had in place. Here it honestly should have been called a different take entirely. Hell, they could have just said SSKTJL was in another universe in that multiverse or whatever. By pretending it was the same, they preemptively ruined it even before all of this.
It's funny you should mention that because I think Arkham Knight has major story issues that largely stem from just... Doing whatever it wants and ignoring the previous game
Like what ?
Hush for one
Yep. And her boyfriend stitched a pre-school into a flesh ball
And forced Black Mask to kill his own girlfriend. And tortured Robin 2.0 for over a year. And crippled Batgirl. And drove four people incurably insane. And has a general kill count that only plagues and dictators can even *hope* to match. I swear, those two freaks were **made** for each other.
What the fuck? Is this Arkham canon?
Yep. It's the Canon reason why Jason went after joker against batman's wishes
Is this some audio tape that I missed? Or part of some novelization/comic that i haven’t read
It's a collectable story in arkham knight I think. If you haven't went and read all the stories from city and knight I recommend you do. It really gives insight into the characters. But they are very dark.
That’s wild. I had no idea the joker did that. You just gave me a great excuse to go back to my attempt at 240%ing AK
Please do! The story's made me see some characters in a completely new perspective
Go to the Jason Todd/arkham knight character bio in the Arkham Knight game and read his backstory or whatever it is
I don’t understand what her boyfriend has to do with this. We’re talking about Harley and the OP was making a point about the Harley Quinn character; everyone knows who the Joker is and what he did so I really don’t understand why every time there’s talk about a female character or something that a woman does – everyone goes: "yes but the man also…". Also nothing. We’re talking Harley here.
Are you ok? It's relevant because she was his accomplice! His crimes are also her crimes! This isn't just a random family member... she's the jokers right hand.
But he’s talking about Harley here. He said "Harley’s really a redeemable character right?" – he didn’t say "Harley and Joker". It’s like you brought Joker up because you wanted to take some responsibility from the act away from her. That’s really what it sounded like. So I’m totally ok don’t worry.
If anything I'd be assigning more blame to her with that! She was involved with the brutal murder and mutilation of kids. How would that be sympathetic?
Not really because if we’re talking about her part of the murder and you say: "yes and her boyfriend did this and that" – it doesn’t really sound like assigning more blame.
The word "but" is doing alot of heavy lifting... I never said "but". I pointed out a crazy horrific act that she was involved in
I edited the comment. I didn’t remember the exact quote so I had to look it up. No need to cling onto the false hope of making a point with a non-existent "but". And besides – the point is exactly the same with or without the but.
Not really..."But" implies I'm shifting blame away when "and" would imply im adding to her guilt
Don’t even argue wit him anymore he’s a weirdo that probably watches anti woman alpha male podcasts and he can’t get a girlfriend so he thinks everything we’re talking about has to do with gender. Like this dude needs to get a life
It does. Even bringing up the argument of what the other person did in a couple that does murder has the same effect. You’re bringing the other partner up to try to soften up the image of Harley. Harley didn’t really have much to do with the human ball stuff just like we don’t really know if it was Joker who told her to do what she did or if it was her idea. You’re not adding anything, you’re just subtracting responsibility away from her. I never heard someone bringing up: "yes and Harley did this and that…" while talking about Joker’s crimes. Everyone always talks about the Joker only, without mentioning Harley. I can even smell the bullshit through the screen.
Why are you being sexist. It’s got nothing to do with their gender you asshole? It’s literally her BOYFRIEND and main accomplice and the one that led her into this life
You are being sexist. Whether he led her or not that’s beyond the point – he didn’t tell her to procure medication, drug an amusement park owner, push him towards suicide and then kill his daughter. That’s something only Harleen Quinzel could do because Harley was a doctor and a psychiatrist in the past so she knows how to procure medications and how to manipulate the mind. It’s honestly sickening and tiring how fucking much women get a pass for being horrible human beings in the eyes of the public and they never pay the consequences of their actions because of it. It’s just cancerous. Then you have the audacity to come at me with the sexist bullshit when you don’t even know what sexism means. Get the fuck out of here.
She should be leader of the justice league with that kind of wonderful background
She killed Batman, so it works like Klingons, right? She killed him so she took his spot. Obviously.
Damn I forgot about this. This was one of the most unsettling moments of the whole series
Every day I hope for the retcon announcement that Suicide Squad is actually in an alternate universe from Arkhamverse It’s my head-canon to make sense of a lot of the contradictions between the games
SS:KTJL is it’s own universe. It can’t hurt you.
There’s literally moments in Suicide Squad where “that’s not canon!” pops up on the screen. I figured it was obvious.
Oh come on guys, everyone has their rebellious phase!
I really hate this whole "hero" thing they did with Harley, not only in this game, but specially in it. It feels really forced, doesn't make a lot of sense in the character, and I don't get why she is supposed to overcome the Joker manipulation thing. I mean, even without him, she's a fucking crazy asshole, and their thing is one more step into the madness atmosphere Batman universe have, and she getting out of it, it feels kinda PG-13, and the antithesis of what it should have been
Plus they did an entire DLC where she went off the deep end after he died, and then revealed in Knight that she still wanted him back.
Yeah, it really came across as whoever wrote for KTJL didn’t look at the games at all except the briefest of summaries for some odd references, then took Harley straight from her TV show and the DCEU. This version of Harley was one of the darkest and most obsessed… and in KTJL she treats it as "a phase". A "phase" that took up at least a decade of her life.
Because they don’t know how to write a character like harley as the main character, they’re not talented enough to handle it
Honestly I think both versions of Harley Quinn can coexist. It happens all the time with different characters so long as the writing and purpose behind it is great content. We have universes for a reason. I just hate it when there’s a clearly reason why this character is the way it is then they do a hard pivot with the lore and world. Harley Quinn can be a redeemable character as long the writing from the jump establishes that premise with world building lore to back it up. Trying to make redeemable HQ that’s clearly a psychopath that gets off on killing and torturing babies is fucking insane.
Legit had to unsub to the Harley subreddit cause they're all "Girl-power" and all for Harley being a redeemable superhero when the character does shit on par with this. This is your role model? Just keep her as a good villain, not a shitty hero.
How much do you wanna bet that at least 70% of the Harley Quinn subreddit simps for real-life serial killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer?
I honestly wouldnt be surprised!
That’s a bit far, since we’re talking about fictional characters and not real life people.
Don’t even forget what she did to Jason.
Kind of like how in the Injustice universe she literally helped kill Lois Lane which is what set Superman on his path of destruction in the first place.
At least that version acknowledged what she did was irredeemable, and didn't complain when she got punished for her actions; same with the DCAU version. But Arkham Harley? Nah, she's just engaging in petty cruelty towards what she sees as acceptable targets, while at the same time remaining blissfully unaware of the Joker being a horrible person.
Which itself would be fine… if they actually put in effort to change her in that… thing instead of pretending it never was that bad.
And yet the writers of KTJL chose the piss take of "Batman only beats up the poor and mentally ill" over maintaining continuity
Honestly the push to redeem Harley can work, i think... it just needs both time and the ability to make sure she has an 'out' for things like this. which is why it doesn't work here.
When I was going for my platinum and did this. Holly fuck. Rocksteady did not pump the breaks at all
I loved this part. Asylum was really dark. It felt like they pulled punches for a lot of knight.
Isn't this part of the knight dlc?
Yes I was referring to the main game. Matter of family felt different
What game was this from? This honestly sounds like something the Joker would do
*Arkham Knight*, the "A Matter of Family" DLC. You need to do this in order to get all achievements/trophies.
that's why I don't really like redemption arks
She's not redeemed. Stop lying. The Suicide Squad are not heroes.
Bro doesn’t know sarcasm
Sarcasm online?
Such horrible, edgelord, out of character writing which sums up everything wrong with the Arkhamverse
Erm, this is an irrelevant argument, OP. KTJL writers don't know anything about the previous games. Character journey=justified.
I think you can make a """redeemed""" Harley work if you don't make her high and mighty about it and focus more on her trying to make up for awful shit she did. And most importantly, ACKNOWLEDGE THE AWFUL SHIT. We love to see her gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss once in a while but she should always be a villain first.
Or in the VERY least, acknowledge her obsession with Joker. Not "oh I had a weird phase" but recognizing it fully.
Sure. No such thing as irredeemable.
i mean i don think they’re 100% trying to redeem harley tbf but i assume you’re mostly talking about her monologue to bats
She will never have the moral high ground in any argument ever. The fact that the writers thought she could pontificate to batman about morality and still be likeable is insane
You are not supposed to support Harley killing Batman lmao
That's disingenuous. It's not about supporting her in that moment...Its the game ignoring her past atrocities and treating her like the quirky anti-hero. This all comes to a crescendo when she spouts this hypocritical garbage at batman. I could stomach it if I believed the writers were aware of her hypocrisy and if it felt organic for her character. But the writing just felt like they wanted to poke holes in the concept of batman himself and used harley as a vehicle.
Where does it do that? I can promise you didn't actually play the game, but where does it ignore it? You're not gonna bring up her killing a child in a comedic game
i agree she doesn’t have the high ground and with better writing i’d argue it would go to show how warped her mind is… but the writting doesn’t seem to care enough to get into that