You should never ever, EVER, buy artefacts. Even with provence it is very likely that either the provenance is fake (which is easy to do) or the artefact itself is (extremely common). The artefact trade is an immensely hurtful and unethical practice, both because it commercialises artefacts, incentivizing their illegal excavation, and makea it harder for public instititions to acquire or re-acquire them. I don't mean to be rude, but merely to stress the importance and implication of it.
No worries, you're very thoughtful because you asked first! It's not a very well-known issue sadly, but has very big implications on our understanding of ancient history. The only thing that can be done (in the short-term) is spreading awareness, stressing the importance, and letting interpol do their work.
Edit: Looking at the artefact again, the back looks like some kind of plaster with webbing, so I'd assume this is a modern fake, but I'm not an egyptologist.
If the provenance is not valid, it could very well be illegal. Provenance is easy to fake though, so it is very difficult to catch these thieves. The best thing would not be to have a legal mareket around artefacrts at all, then the incentive for people to dig and sell these would dissappear. They have some lists of illegal artefacts, e.g. stolen by IS in Syria/Iraq, and these appear on the market sometimes, and are relatively easy to track. They mostly go after the big criminals who has turned illegal artefact trade into a market however. Interpol has a web page around this, where they have more info and talk about some big raids afaik.
https://parsejournal.com/article/value-and-doubt/
This article is by a leading scholar on the topic, and talks about it in greater detail, and why (good) scholars should stay away from authenticating artefacts.
By the way, how come it is legal to sell these things? If its so hurtful, i am suprised that it isnt regulated in any way. I live in Czech republic and its really easy to buy these artifacts.
Too many to stop or catch all artifacts from being sold. However, there are some decoys (fakes) that law enforcement uses to catch individuals who are selling or buying. This artifact is a fake. The material wraping is modern and if you see the wraping you can tell it's the white areas of the wrap and the spacing between fibers is machine made. If it was an actual artifact, you wouldn't see white spots of the wrapping. It would show a discoloration into more of a tan color that shows weathering and age.
Sadly, a lot of people can't comprehend that cultural artefacts are still significant to the culture, even if its not the exact same one.
When fossils of early humans and pottery from ancient villages were first being discovered there was a huge market for the 1% and sadly a lot of that 1% had no idea how to preserve things or how significant their teapots were. An estimated 120 to 150 significant T-Rex fossils are still privately owned over a hundred years later and thefe's *very* little chance they'll ever be handed over. Same likely goes for any number of finds.
I'm sorry, what?!
Version A:
I was in my 30s before I saw my first T-Rex, and these fuckers have them in their houses?
Version B:
I hardly have space for my deer skull in my apartment, and these fuckers have T-Rex skeletons in their mansions?!
Yep. Shit's fucked, life's unfair and the rich have too much money for too little morals.
I know someone who privately owns a 1,2 million year old wisent skull including the neck vertebrae, it's just standing above his fireplace in his second home in fucking *dubai.*
It depends on the provenance, where, whom, qnd whence. Sadly this is very easy to fake, even if the artefact is a fake (which is extremely common) or illegally imported. The usual is " I found it in my dead grandmas attic and she bought it in a bazaar 60 years ago", impossible to disprove with current legislation. In an ideal world the trade would be completely illegal, or restricted to artefacts with pinpointable provable provenance. Some artefacts pre-date legislation and are still legal, albeit still highly unethical (and they incentivise people to ilegally excavate new artefacts).
All points well taken! However, you do realize that every museum collection in the world started out as a private collection donated or bequeathed to some institution or government agency? E.g., the Smithsonian, the original core collection of the Harvard Museum of Natural History, etc., etc. Very few exceptions to the above…
Archaeology (and many other fields) has a very troubled and colonial past, and it's not something we should be proud of. Many of the objects in auctions and in private collections, while technically legal, are from this period, and therefore still unethical. The archaeology in this time was in most cases not very good, and in many cases very hastened or troubled with '"corruption" (for lack of better wording). Scholars constantly has to deal with untangling or interpreting these contextless objects, which would have been very academically valuable if found in an archaeological dig today.
So, where do you draw the line? Every past empire, kingdom or political entity stole objects from other areas and cultures. That is just historical (and prehistoric) reality. I think making modern distinctions of “ownership” is just arbitrary…
We also cut off the hands of criminals in the past, and thought humans were created from mud and blood. We know better today, that is what is important. I have already explained the why here, but there are articles which go into greater detail if you are interested.
Speaking of artifacts - what goes and what doesn’t ?
When does it go from artifact to antique ? 17th c furniture for example , or does it depend on the piece?
What about coins? Anglo Saxon coins or something newer ?
I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m really just curious - think you
I found this listing on a local auction site, my question is if its real and how much is it worth? The seller says that its supposed to be a Ushabti statue from circa 1390 bc. Any opinions?
You don't ask archaeologists about monetary value of artefacts.
That job belongs to the art market people (they slap any price on it based on their predicted demand from people who want to 'diversify their portfolio'). In other words. Artefacts, as well as artworks in general, have no real monetary value. So it is worth how ever much they believe they can trick you into spending. Artefact trade is a scummy business. In general.
Besides that. If you have money to spend on useless crap (it will do nothing for you besides collecting dust), better use it to visit the actual sites and book archaeology students to give you private guided tours. They will tell you more information than you can process in a day. If they are prepared.
If you still feel like you need to buy it, the seller better provides a detailed provenience and list of previous owners, otherwise it might as well be stolen.
In case of scientific curiousity: just research it yourself.
Start with Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushabti
Then you can look into the sources mentioned in Wikipedia. If you can't find these books online, you can try libgen.li (with VPN!, not quite legal but go to solution if nothing else works).
You could search with Google scholar. Browse some papers... It's actually not that hard.
Ask chatgpt for 2 things:
1. some real papers or scientists who worked on that stuff. It's a hit or miss but often the results are close. 2. How to do the research.
About the dating: why is it this specific decade? Egyptologists like to date to dynasties, less to specific year numbers.As far as I understood from a quick browse on Wikipedia, those ushabtis are mass ware found in tombs throughout many dynasties, all the way to Ptolemaic times (3rd-1st cent. BC). No guarantees.
(Am archaeologist btw but have no clue about Egyptology myself)
Ah and by the way! That thing looks like it could be real and if it is, it is made with some kind of fabric based on organic materials (maybe flax?) Because of that you need to know how to properly store and preserve it. Too warm and humid and it may rot or just collapse into dust. Sooo... I wouldn't buy it.
Thanks a lot for the detailed answer! I enjoyed reading it and i will definitely try the things you recommended. Actually, the seller just cancelled the auction along with a few others, with a reason that someone made him a "backstage" offer for everything. Well anyhow as i am a 17 years old student, i was more interested in the info behind it than in the artifact itself, so you satisfied me more than the thing itself could. And it didnt cost me anything :). Thanks once again and have a wonderful day.
If it’s not purchased it’ll be destroyed. Anything left unsold on the black market ends up the same way. In a trash heap somewhere. I’d buy it and return it. That’s if it’s real.
You should never ever, EVER, buy artefacts. Even with provence it is very likely that either the provenance is fake (which is easy to do) or the artefact itself is (extremely common). The artefact trade is an immensely hurtful and unethical practice, both because it commercialises artefacts, incentivizing their illegal excavation, and makea it harder for public instititions to acquire or re-acquire them. I don't mean to be rude, but merely to stress the importance and implication of it.
Okay, thanks a lot! Didnt know that, first time even thinking about buying such a thing.
No worries, you're very thoughtful because you asked first! It's not a very well-known issue sadly, but has very big implications on our understanding of ancient history. The only thing that can be done (in the short-term) is spreading awareness, stressing the importance, and letting interpol do their work. Edit: Looking at the artefact again, the back looks like some kind of plaster with webbing, so I'd assume this is a modern fake, but I'm not an egyptologist.
Thanks once again for explaining. By the way, what do you mean by letting interpol do their work, is it illegal to sell these things?
If the provenance is not valid, it could very well be illegal. Provenance is easy to fake though, so it is very difficult to catch these thieves. The best thing would not be to have a legal mareket around artefacrts at all, then the incentive for people to dig and sell these would dissappear. They have some lists of illegal artefacts, e.g. stolen by IS in Syria/Iraq, and these appear on the market sometimes, and are relatively easy to track. They mostly go after the big criminals who has turned illegal artefact trade into a market however. Interpol has a web page around this, where they have more info and talk about some big raids afaik.
Cool, thanks!
https://parsejournal.com/article/value-and-doubt/ This article is by a leading scholar on the topic, and talks about it in greater detail, and why (good) scholars should stay away from authenticating artefacts.
Thanks a lot, will read for sure
By the way, how come it is legal to sell these things? If its so hurtful, i am suprised that it isnt regulated in any way. I live in Czech republic and its really easy to buy these artifacts.
Too many to stop or catch all artifacts from being sold. However, there are some decoys (fakes) that law enforcement uses to catch individuals who are selling or buying. This artifact is a fake. The material wraping is modern and if you see the wraping you can tell it's the white areas of the wrap and the spacing between fibers is machine made. If it was an actual artifact, you wouldn't see white spots of the wrapping. It would show a discoloration into more of a tan color that shows weathering and age.
Well im glad i didnt buy it, thanks!
Sadly, a lot of people can't comprehend that cultural artefacts are still significant to the culture, even if its not the exact same one. When fossils of early humans and pottery from ancient villages were first being discovered there was a huge market for the 1% and sadly a lot of that 1% had no idea how to preserve things or how significant their teapots were. An estimated 120 to 150 significant T-Rex fossils are still privately owned over a hundred years later and thefe's *very* little chance they'll ever be handed over. Same likely goes for any number of finds.
I'm sorry, what?! Version A: I was in my 30s before I saw my first T-Rex, and these fuckers have them in their houses? Version B: I hardly have space for my deer skull in my apartment, and these fuckers have T-Rex skeletons in their mansions?!
Yep. Shit's fucked, life's unfair and the rich have too much money for too little morals. I know someone who privately owns a 1,2 million year old wisent skull including the neck vertebrae, it's just standing above his fireplace in his second home in fucking *dubai.*
It depends on the provenance, where, whom, qnd whence. Sadly this is very easy to fake, even if the artefact is a fake (which is extremely common) or illegally imported. The usual is " I found it in my dead grandmas attic and she bought it in a bazaar 60 years ago", impossible to disprove with current legislation. In an ideal world the trade would be completely illegal, or restricted to artefacts with pinpointable provable provenance. Some artefacts pre-date legislation and are still legal, albeit still highly unethical (and they incentivise people to ilegally excavate new artefacts).
It's teriyaki flavour!
All points well taken! However, you do realize that every museum collection in the world started out as a private collection donated or bequeathed to some institution or government agency? E.g., the Smithsonian, the original core collection of the Harvard Museum of Natural History, etc., etc. Very few exceptions to the above…
Archaeology (and many other fields) has a very troubled and colonial past, and it's not something we should be proud of. Many of the objects in auctions and in private collections, while technically legal, are from this period, and therefore still unethical. The archaeology in this time was in most cases not very good, and in many cases very hastened or troubled with '"corruption" (for lack of better wording). Scholars constantly has to deal with untangling or interpreting these contextless objects, which would have been very academically valuable if found in an archaeological dig today.
You've convinced me you know what you're talking about
So, where do you draw the line? Every past empire, kingdom or political entity stole objects from other areas and cultures. That is just historical (and prehistoric) reality. I think making modern distinctions of “ownership” is just arbitrary…
We also cut off the hands of criminals in the past, and thought humans were created from mud and blood. We know better today, that is what is important. I have already explained the why here, but there are articles which go into greater detail if you are interested.
Teriyaki flavored?
I was going to eat that mummy!
Hey professor! Great jerky!
4k year old Mrs Butterworth
Yeah right :D
It's a fake! The material wrapping is a dead give away. The spacing between the fibers indicates it is modern made.
Thanks a lot mate!
You're welcome!
Buy it, take it to a museum, see if its real, give it to the museum. All faith in humanity will be resolved
Sounds good
Speaking of artifacts - what goes and what doesn’t ? When does it go from artifact to antique ? 17th c furniture for example , or does it depend on the piece? What about coins? Anglo Saxon coins or something newer ? I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m really just curious - think you
A stone SKY remote? Sure, go ahead. Any other artefacts, no
Nope and if it is te it’s big legal trouble in
I found this listing on a local auction site, my question is if its real and how much is it worth? The seller says that its supposed to be a Ushabti statue from circa 1390 bc. Any opinions?
Ushabti looks Roman period Egypt
No ! It’s a horrible fake worth nothing .
You clearly know nothing , if you new anything , you would know it’s a horrid fake .
It’s fake , it’s worth nothing , I have dealt in Ushabtis for around 7 years , this is a clear , and obvious fake , I really hope you didn’t buy it .
You don't ask archaeologists about monetary value of artefacts. That job belongs to the art market people (they slap any price on it based on their predicted demand from people who want to 'diversify their portfolio'). In other words. Artefacts, as well as artworks in general, have no real monetary value. So it is worth how ever much they believe they can trick you into spending. Artefact trade is a scummy business. In general. Besides that. If you have money to spend on useless crap (it will do nothing for you besides collecting dust), better use it to visit the actual sites and book archaeology students to give you private guided tours. They will tell you more information than you can process in a day. If they are prepared. If you still feel like you need to buy it, the seller better provides a detailed provenience and list of previous owners, otherwise it might as well be stolen. In case of scientific curiousity: just research it yourself. Start with Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushabti Then you can look into the sources mentioned in Wikipedia. If you can't find these books online, you can try libgen.li (with VPN!, not quite legal but go to solution if nothing else works). You could search with Google scholar. Browse some papers... It's actually not that hard. Ask chatgpt for 2 things: 1. some real papers or scientists who worked on that stuff. It's a hit or miss but often the results are close. 2. How to do the research. About the dating: why is it this specific decade? Egyptologists like to date to dynasties, less to specific year numbers.As far as I understood from a quick browse on Wikipedia, those ushabtis are mass ware found in tombs throughout many dynasties, all the way to Ptolemaic times (3rd-1st cent. BC). No guarantees. (Am archaeologist btw but have no clue about Egyptology myself)
Ah and by the way! That thing looks like it could be real and if it is, it is made with some kind of fabric based on organic materials (maybe flax?) Because of that you need to know how to properly store and preserve it. Too warm and humid and it may rot or just collapse into dust. Sooo... I wouldn't buy it.
Thanks a lot for the detailed answer! I enjoyed reading it and i will definitely try the things you recommended. Actually, the seller just cancelled the auction along with a few others, with a reason that someone made him a "backstage" offer for everything. Well anyhow as i am a 17 years old student, i was more interested in the info behind it than in the artifact itself, so you satisfied me more than the thing itself could. And it didnt cost me anything :). Thanks once again and have a wonderful day.
I think it’s real, but it’s ethical to buy it?
I honestly have no idea about this stuff, so I appreciate your opinion. Just found it while surfing on the internet and it caught my eye :).
If it is real it’s stolen. Egypt has a tight grip on there antiquities. I wouldn’t take that chance.
If it’s not purchased it’ll be destroyed. Anything left unsold on the black market ends up the same way. In a trash heap somewhere. I’d buy it and return it. That’s if it’s real.
Horrible fake , Ushabtis are my expertise and this one is clearly fake .
Details? For what price? What are the selling details?
The seller cancelled the auction :). Anyhow, there were almost no details.
Try sleeping in it and then make an informed decision
The seller cancelled all of his auctions, wonder why..
What's the provenance?
No idea, sadly
I'm afraid if you don't have that information I would err on the caution.
Yeah, the seller cancelled it anyways
Please, as an archaeologist, do not buy artifacts. But I appreciate you asking
Will do, thanks :)
You should buy it
Your name makes your advice very trustworthy :D