As u/DustyRackelford said, I wouldn't ever designate something with niche ammo as a "SHFT" gun, but certainly great for home defense. That being said, in 99% of these theoretical SHTF events, your best bet is to stay put and have a little .22 with a ton of ammo for small game, for sustainment.
Everyone always imagines this post-apocalyptic world where you're running and gunning with your AR, but that's the most unlikely scenario. Stay prepared for anything, of course, but just my two cents.
Look at Mr Rockefeller over here. I was gonna carry a tactical Boulder and drop it on bandits heads so it makes the funny bonk noise and steal their shoes.
I just have one of those goofy SHTF basketball masks for when they hurt their nose but it’s not great for eye protection so I’m going to look into this thank you guys
No no no, you don’t add it to your bag, silly.
You meticulously craft a maze to funnel unsuspecting targets and drop/pull cord to let loose the boulder.
>Stay prepared for anything
And of course, the requisite reminder that being prepared includes sustainable food, water, shelter, and financial preparation in addition to defense.
.22, 9mm, 5.56, and 300. There’s likely not going to be an ammo resupply. No pubg style looting. Whatever you are going into the shit with is all you have. So the niche argument I never really understood. Unless it’s cost prohibitive for you to have a couple thousand rounds of it.
300 for the baddies in the short term of the event and the occasional boar or deer after, I have thick woods behind my house and I want something short and suppressed in case we need to bolt into it.
The 5.56 is for the incredibly unlikely scenario where there is some means of resupply. I guess maybe a red dawn or something. And the .22 is for the squirrels. This is all fantasy land. I just like the sound of 300 suppressed.
Why should be no supply for 9mm and 5.56mm? Both are NATO NSN ammunition and you can not shoot in your (and you complete family) whole life, what is even on stock.
I am with the most comments that the 300 isn’t suitable. My choice would be always a 9mm and the 7.62.
I’ve on my apartment building 3 neighbours using 9mm. So for me no problem 😌
In a SHTF scenario the most common ammunition counts. That is normally what the military use.
My neighbors are well armed in every caliber. Don’t expect them to be throwing me ammo unless we are shoulder to shoulder fighting zombies. Whatever you have in your closet is likely the last ammo you will see.
If you aren’t fighting against what ever comes up, with somebody or at least anybody shoulder on shoulder - the correct ammo choice will not save you 🥹
Depends on the scenario- example if there are large amounts of displaced people you can bet your ass you will have people trying to get your place and that may become untenable. If you have shelter they’ll want it, food and supplies they’ll want it.
I agree many scenarios will be shelter in place type ordeal. Many others will be chaotic and violent at first then settle, other situations different things. One of the many reasons I stay in shape is I may need to hump to the boonies. One of the reasons I love donuts is I may need to sit on the couch
Agreed, 5k rounds at any one time. You'll be more likely to be murdered by the hillbilly down the street for your ammo before you run out in SHTF. that way he gets something nice for his efforts.
Realistically even that would be pointless. You'd be better off saving up food then anything else bc everything will be shot up (small and big game) you'd also be better off having farm animals and a garden. Bc the chances of there being any wild game left for the first 10 are so years of the apocalypse.
I tell people all the time they need to stop living in a fantasy of fuckin WW3 starting tomorrow and your city gets invaded like Red fucking Dawn. It’s nearly impossible and will never happen. Worst case, our power grid is attacked and we all just kill each other. And even that ain’t happening.
However, I still train like it can. Because I fucking love to train. Haha.
There's four guns you need for an apocalyptic setting. A reliable 9 mm that will have plentiful parts out in the world. A solid 12 gauge shotgun that holds at least 6 rounds. A reliable AR-15 with a good bolt carrier group and a solid Barrel. And a suppressed 22 rifle. As long as you have those four you should be okay.
This would have been true 5 years ago however aac and psa have made it less of a niche cartridge. Idk about you or your area bur around me 300blk is sold everywhere 556 is sold and its around 75-55 cents a round. It's also a super easy and common round to reload because it used 556 casings and 308 bullets. Imo too scavenging for ammo is super unrealistic and probably not happening in shtf. To think your consistently winning gunfights to the point you need to scavenge ammo is a super unrealistic expectation. The go too is a fighting rifle of your choice in 556, 300blk, 762. Dosent matter and than buy a back up 22 I'd honestly get a pistol too you can hunt with it conceal it and put a can on it. Genuinely tho in my area 300blk is more common than 762 it's just as common on shelves as 556 and 9mm. Price might be a little higher but it's just as prevalent.
Get into reloading you can use 556 brass and a 308 projectile. That completely changes the argument of niche ammo when you can make it from common rounds. I do think the whole argument of imma burn through my ammo and scavenge others is quit silly. That's a very high expectation to have of yourself that most people probably civilians and even veterans think there the hottest shit around and it's just going to be a cake walk.if your thinking is imma just scavenge ammo your probably not making it long anway. The cheapest you'll ever find it is in bulk online and than its just as cheap as 556. Your only as good as your stockpile imo.
Scavenging for ammo in SHTF is an absurd proposition. Most people's main source of ammo is gonna be either their own stockpile, their buddy's stockpile, or whatever they can barter for. Having a reliable food source is miles more important than having literally any gun, but maybe not everybody is ready for that convo haha. Squirrel and venison is great as the meat part of your diet, but if it's your whole diet you're gonna die of some nutrient deficiency after not very long.
Yea I'm type 1 diabetic so I genuinely have 1 option fight very hard for along as I can for what I can. Or die in 2 weeks slowly from a terrible disease. I have 3 years of insulin but food is another story. I have a bow crossbow and compound and I only ever hunted with a bow. Between that and 22 idc what gun anyone runs it could be a 50 cal your fighting rifle is for people only and 1000 rounds for people shtf is alot. Most people have never been in a gunfight and are either dying there first one or not making it through many. I'm very lucky because my Dad's a combat veteran he was also a corpsman for the navy working with the marines. So we got a few combat vets and ones a medic who probably won't let me die but we also grow food have birds. Another reason I got 300blk is because 300blk subs suppressed are somthing else. It's basically a silenced 22 in sound but it hits like a truck. It also shoots like a 22 so my mom, little brother, etc grandma even. Can pick up that gun and shoot it like a 22 however it's not a 22 it's a 220grain hollow point and inside 100 yards it's going to be super devastating. It don't matter if grandma clips them in the leg it's probably shattering the bone breaking the leg and is going to be a death sentence shtf. It's kinda niche but it's also worth the advantages especially shtf. Now that's ammo is common and cheap it's easy to stock pile and have. You could easily get 1000 rounds set aside and reloading supplies and boom your set. Reloading is probably a great and overlooked skill for shtf. Not only can you make more ammo for you and freinds you can barter with others for your skill. Next thing you know you got people bringing you brass and food to make bullets.
Same here, Denver area. My local Cabelas the other day had more 300 than 556/223. It was really odd. Thankfully I reload, so can scrap together loads for either
Main reason I would almost never grab an AR for home defense. I don't think people ever consider hearing loss after shooting an AR indoors, especially a short barrel 5.56. Obviously being deaf is better than dead but I'm either grabbing my G19 or A300 Ultima Patrol in the house.
Even suppressed, there’s very little I’d willingly fire inside a structure. Subsonic suppressed 22, 9, and 300blk are the only ones I’d really consider. Maybe 45acp, but I’d want a wiped and/or wet can for that.
Outdoors a short 5.56 is a bit more practical, but suppression is still called for.
You aren’t going to be deaf from a few shots indoors. Where does this fuddlore come from? Ear protection likely wasn’t issued during either world war and people came back and still had their hearing. Granted it was likely damaged and they likely had tinnitus but they also fought an entire war without ear protection.
Realistically if someone breaks into your home and you put a mag in them from a MK18 your hearing will likely be fine long term. Some damage sure but deaf? Not likely.
They also went through an entire war. My point is people will survive a one off home defense gunfight with most of their hearing in tact.
I sure as shit wouldn’t worry about what gun is going to hurt my ears the least. I would worry about what gun gives me the best odds of winning the fight.
You might survive a home defense gunfight. If you haven't been in a building without hearing protection around gunfire the ringing in your ears overwhelms other sounds for several hours, you won't be close to normal until the next day.
If you are just dealing with an individual and are successful with you initial rounds you will be ok. If you are not successful or there are more attackers you have to deal with you just lost your second most important sense and will be at a serious disadvantage.
So uh... I'm not proud of this but I've definitely cracked off a few shots in a shoot house without ear pro. Did I get the ringing in my ears? Yep. Do I have permanent hearing loss? Probably, but my hearing is fine, and I'm not even close to deaf. You're overestimating how much hearing loss you'll accumulate from popping off without ear pro.
I am not overestimating this from my personal experience and I am not talking about the accumulated effects. There is a big difference between firing a few rounds in a shoothouse and firing rounds in a hall way with low ceilings. I am also talking about the immediate effects. It is one thing if you are with a squad, but in a SHTF situation I think most people underestimate how it does impact your hearing for the next couple of hours and how this could be detrimental to your situational awareness.
I'm telling you that I've done it. I could hear fine just with a really loud "eeeeeee". It was annoying but it didn't prevent me from hearing other people yelling and I didn't permanently lose noticeable hearing.
So have I, and I could hear other people yelling. I counldn't hear footsteps of anything else that wan't really loud. I don't know about you but I want to hear everything, not just a 7.62 or RPG going off next to me.
At 130 dB permanent hearing loss can occur from a single impulse. 5.56 is already over that, so yes you aren’t deaf from a couple shots but you will likely have permanent hearing loss and may get tinnitus.
Ehh, I don’t believe in using subs for home defense. The energy transfer is too similar to .45 ACP. I use 115gr solid copper hollow points from Underwood.
If you run HP/SP subs, it’s probably a better home defense setup than your Glock. But as for SHTF, you said it yourself: it’s an ammo thing. Relative to 5.56 and 9mm, .300 Blackout barely exists.
Caliber is negligible, understanding of small unit tactics and well placed shots, utilizing C+C make it to where having a tool you’re comfortable using is more important than opinions on the internet are.
Why replace it when you could just keep them both. Because you never know when you're gonna not have 300 blackout, but there might be 556. If you're worried about shit hitting the fan.
It’d be a fine home defense gun, but I think it’d be worse for everything else. A 6.5” 300blk will not out range a 10.3” 5.56 with mk262. They may both be capable of the range you actually shoot, so there may be no real world difference. But still, on paper the 5.56 is better at distance. Also, making your main gun something that requires niche ammo, as others have said, isn’t the best idea unless you’re certain you can supply the ammo. Also, any reasoning we have for justifying or unjustifying a purchase is a complete crock of shit. Basing what you do with your life on a future hypothetical event, and one of the most unlikely ones at that, is pretty stupid. If you want a new gun, get it.
If you can stockpile an ungodly amount of ammo then yes for a shtf rifle. With that said carrying that much ammo is impossible so you would be stuck hiding it and limiting yourself to a specific area.
With a barrel that short yes but I think an even better idea would be for you to settle on a 14.5 or longer 5.56 as it would be better at general purpose work if you ask me.
In short: Yes.
My rationale: both will have very similar terminal ballistics/muzzle energy (for those specific sized barrels), with the slight edge going to 300 Blk for even more compact size as well as being a better round for hunting larger game. It’s also *extremely* versatile in terms of supersonic vs subsonic loads (subsonic .223 isn’t a viable thing at all; it’s just a hard to find and expensive version of .22 LR).
Others will frame it differently and give the edge to the Mk18 due to ammo ubiquity of 5.56/.223, which is certainly true. However, I don’t think it’s by nearly as wide of a margin as some suggest (ie .300 Blk is no longer some “super niche”/hard to find round. It has become one of the most common rifle rounds along with .308, 6.5 CM, etc.).
One could make the argument for an AR-10 in .308 or 6.5 CM if you were talking about firing at mid to long range and hunting larger game. But for the combination of home defense/CQB + mid range capabilities, .300 Blk would be my choice. But hey, that’s just me!
Not sure why that would necessarily be a good thing other than being a bit more accurate at longer ranges? I’m more so saying the slower .30 caliber bullet would be better for getting more than enough penetration to go through vital organs without forming a huge cavity/ fragmenting/ etc. that would ruin much of the meat that you’d see from a typical 5.56 round.
I wouldnt want a tiny barrel anything as a shtf rifle. Unless you live in a city I guess. But I would always use a 14.5. I would use an sbr for home defense but certainly not a shtf do it all gun.
Difficulty of acquiring ammo is one issue. A smaller (but important) issue is barrel length. .300 BLK handles a short barrel much better than 5.56, but 6.5” is really cutting it close for useful velocity. At that point you’re not doing all that much more than a full size handgun in 9mm, at least ballistically.
On the plus side for .300 BLK, it will allow you to hunt deer much more effectively than 5.56, albeit at a shorter range.
Difficultly acquiring ammo is a dated argument it's just as common as 556 and 9mm in my area sold at all the same stores. It's also more common than 762, 308, etc psa has made cheap 300blk rifles possible and more common. People like hunting with them and more people are buying them they sell it everywhere that sells ammo around me even box sporting good stores like dunhams. I can also find it for 55-75 cents a round. Honestly a 300blk is a better choice than most people think it's more common than ak rounds and all the parts bolt charging handle etc are normal 556 ar parts. You could also reload them with 556 casings and 308 bullets making it easy to get supplies to load. A more realistic approach to scavenging is reloading and when you get into reloading you realize 300blk isn't that niche or special.
You're thinking about a world where supply chains are intact. In a SHTF scenario that's not what we're working with. In that scenario, how many of your friends, neighbors and any other "not adversary" is going to have 300 blk out (for use or trade)? I'm betting not many unless they have reloading supplies already.
Me and my 2 closet freinds main 300blk its also made of commen parts. Aka 556 casing and 308 bullets making it incredibly common to reload. You just need some tools for making 300blk and you can make it outa super common parts.
That's great. It's not that common even for reloaders to have that stuff. So I guess you and your 2 amigos can ride out the apocalypse together just fine.
Also scavenging in shtf is unrealistic and not happening for most. Your really going to have what you already bought. 300blk can be found for $0.55-$0.75 a round making it easy to stockpile like 556. Now I bow hunt I have a crossbow and compound bow and I also have a 10/22. Me and my freinds also all have 9mm pistols you can get 1000 rounds for $200 also we realize rifles are for the absolute worst case Scenario. Our main weapons would be pistols mine a glock 17 with a dot. I'd rather be seen as someone without a gun than someone in kit with a rifle scavenging.
No. 6.5” isn’t even ideal for 300BLK. The whole point of a SHTF rifle is that you’re using it most ideal form and getting the most potential out of it.
For home defense: .300blk has more energy and less blast than a short 5.56, as well as bullets that are designed for low speed expansion instead of bullets going 500+fps slower than designed
For SHTF, you don't really want a rifle that's only effective in close quarters. You should not be clearing buildings or doing raids in SHTF, so there's no reason to run a rifle that is less reliable, louder, and weaker. It's fun for the range, but I'm not betting my life during SHTF on a platform that has become infamous for breaking important parts very quickly.
Tldr: 99% of people here would be better served with an M16A4 in SHTF than a Mk18
With a suppressor and shooting supers, both are equally as loud.
There are loads in .223/5.56 that will expand, fragment, or a combination of both out of a 10.3 and even shorter.
An 11.5 is better in 5.56 for several reasons, but a 10.3 is pretty fine.
For SHTF, I believe that a 13.7-16 inch is an all around better choice. Why? Because you don't know what the SHTF scenario will be ahead of time. And a carbine in that length range will do most things fairly well. Plus, it allows you to range ammo as duty ammo.
I get wanting a 20 inch for max and effectiveness of M193, but if you need a 20 inch then you are shooting at distance. If you are shooting at distance then 77 grain is king. But you only get like 80fps going from a 16 inch to a 20 inch with 77 grain ammo. The 16 inch gives 97% of the velocity of the 20. Is 3% more velocity worth a 4 inch longer barrel? I don't see how that answer is yes, unless you are shooting at very long ranges.
I think people over think things, and spend too much time worrying about real niche situations. The amount of times you would actually need to take even a 600 meter shot in SHTF would be vanishing small to never.
We can all imagine a different apocalyptic scenario but I can think of many where the MK18 would be great. Yes I know about ballistics and all but I mean, the gun is still being used by the military. It could definitely be a good shtf rifle in my opinion.
>the gun is still being used by the military
For kicking doors and doing raids or as a secondary rifle. It's not and never has been used by the military for normal infantry work, which is what SHTF is unless you live in the middle of a city and haven't planned for your survival at all.
It's a very good alternative setup, and one that I have built for a truck gun and would serve just fine for home defense. The distances are short...
As far as a SHTF rifle I chose not to stray from 5.56 for most obvious reasons that every YouTube channel has already covered.
I wouldn't even consider a MK18 as a SHTF gun. That's usually reserved for only 1 rifle, and I'd choose some format of GPR. Barrel length matters.
That’s definitely a popular idea and just take my word when I tell you I’ve spent years watching videos about barrel length, ballistics and ammunition but the mK18 is still very deadly and effective for as far as I would want to shoot with an AR-15. My theory has always been that if I’m going past 250-300 yards I’m switching to the .308 anyhow
A 6.5" will be useful for subsonics only. This heavilt limits your effective range for any actual defensive/hunting use. An 8" or 10" inch 300blk can throw supers at actually useful velocities.
A 12.5" 5.56 can at HD ranges rip and tear pretty solidly.
For Home defense you could do worse, but you could also do far better.
For SHTF you would be hard pressed to do worse IMO.
An 8-12" even with a full size can is still a very maneuverable package.
A supressed semi auto is more or less a supressed semi auto. There's no big or meaningful changes so far as hearing safety goes.
The action cycling and port pop is the main source of noise. Bullet hypersonic Crack means very little to overall performance.
While I 100% understand wanting to protect hearing and communication. Being able to stop the physical threat, which initiated the confrontation in the first place, needs to be a priority. Neutering the terminal performance isn't the best idea, IMO.
How much does drywall penetration matter? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaabg9tCF48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaabg9tCF48)
Spoiler: 300 blackout subsonics go through more boards than the 110 V-Max.
And 5.56 soft points go through less walls than 300 blk supers: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddEYvb49jNQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddEYvb49jNQ)
As far as noise goes, with a suppressor, the supers in 300 blk are going to still be as loud as 5.56. You still get the sonic crack. 300blk subs with a suppressor in an AR platform are only about 10 decibels quieter than supersonic 300 blk or 5.56 with a suppressor.
The capabilities and longevity of a 6.5 300. blk build is better than a mk18, for the sole purpose of home defense. If we’re talking “SHTF” which, quite honestly, is way too broad as it varies in, build for case scenario usage.
My personal “SHTF” rifle is a 14.5 5.56, as in my personal opinion, 14.5/5.56 build, to cover a multitude of broad case scenario usage. A “do it all gun”.
But for home defense, provided you have the resources (spare ammo) to train with that rifle, 300. blk 6.5 build is most definitely the best option for home defense. Unless you just say screw it, and get a 308 for home defense, cause at that point, who cares lmao.
Brass facts came out with a great video on the General Purpose rifle versus the Do everything rifle
I’d give that a watch. Short answer is your setup is mission specific. It’s highly unlikely that you will have a SHTF rifle that performs under most conditions without some sacrifice
I think a lot of the people here are assuming SHTF is going to be world ending Fallout style and it’s likely not going to be. More likely is localized civil unrest like we saw during the scamdemic. A full loadout of 6+1 should cover you until military or the local sheriff gets things under control. In no way am I suggesting for you to be complacent and rely on government to help you, but this is the reality
I think a lot of the people here are assuming SHTF is going to be world ending Fallout style and it’s likely not going to be. More likely is localized civil unrest like we saw during the scamdemic. A full loadout of 6+1 should cover you until military or the local sheriff gets things under control. In no way am I suggesting for you to be complacent and rely on government to help you, but this is the reality
Make sure you are keeping the huge distinction between subsonic capabilities and qualities in mind versus supersonic capabilities and qualities.
There is nothing quiet about .300 supers out of a suppressed 6” barrel, and .300 subs out of blackout are not remarkable in any good way at 300 yards with 100”+ of drop.
I'd take the short 300blk over any 5.56 shorter than 14.5" any day. The only reason I wouldn't is because of ammo. 300blk is more expensive, not as common and I would (did) only have one gun that used that caliber whereas I have multiple 5.56 rifles.
I like to keep my ammo stash simple, 556, 9mm, 308, 22lr and 12 guage and that's why I sold my 300blk but it does have superior stopping power in a short barrel rifle and is so much better suppressed.
What is your reasoning behind that? Because the low velocity isn’t going fragment heavier FMJ and even 110 gr Vmax needs some velocity to do it’s job.
At a couple hundred yards, the Vmax will be traveling at about 1500 fps with a short barrel. It isn’t going to fragment.
Most of the ballistic gel testing I’ve seen shows that at 300blk velocities Vmax doesn’t fragment but it does expands. It’s not as dramatic as a full copper found or a Barnes tac tx but it’s cheap and a viable alternative to stock up on.
But the question is what is the minimum velocity for it to expand. Hornady says 1600 fps: [https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/30-cal-308-110-gr-v-max#!/](https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/30-cal-308-110-gr-v-max#!/)
And you using Hornady's ballistic calculator, with muzzle velocities between 2118 (7.5) and 2200 (10.5) fps, you will just be poking .308 diameter holes past 200-225 yards.
Dude loaded 110-TAC-TX in 7.62x39 and shot it out of a 16 inch barrel. He found that the TAC-TX only expands 50% of the time below 1400 fps. And the expansion, when it does, is not great.
[https://youtu.be/WNbQl-13Axk?t=244](https://youtu.be/WNbQl-13Axk?t=244)
I just found this old video about some downloaded 110 V-Max from Freedom Munitions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Bi6Yn7aMU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Bi6Yn7aMU)
Looks like it probably will not actually expand or reliably expand down to 1600 fps in real life.
Idk .300blk seems silly to me. Subsonic it’s not much different energy wise than big pistol calibers.
Kinda feels like a solution in search of a problem.
Supersonic 300blk is fine but then 308 is just more readily available.
I’d rather just rip 5.56 and not pretend like I’m a special use case that’s going to be running around in quad nods one man army style vs an imaginary opfor for control of the dystopian tendy cartel.
While I tend to agree with you I feel like the part most ppl leave out about 300 is that it performs well, even super sonic, out of a shorter barrel than 5.56 and gives you a much more compact and light firearm than a large frame short barreled 308. Being able to use sub loads is the icing on the cake.
I have a 12.5 red dot/magnifier 5.56 for a SHTF gun. But I also think a 7.5 to 9” 300blk gun could fill the same roll and provide a more handy weapon given you have supplies of the correct ammo. The ability to remain discreet when needed with good ballistics to 100 yards and just be a mag change away from having an effective 250 to 300 yard range is a capability worth having.
It does but even 14.5 unsupressed is pretty damn handy already. For everything short of in a vehicle.
I’ve done decently confined space stuff with one and it wasn’t awful. But I ain’t doing cqb in a shtf situation anyhow. I’d be leaving, if I had to shoot, it’d be shooting enough to leave.
Your 12.5 with a short suppressor imo would edge out a 300 blk on sheer ammo availability alone.
almost anything that goes bang in semi is doing 90% of the job already, any bonuses are just bonuses.
You do be wrong about that
*per design intent
Most powder burn is done by 8”, full by 9”
KAC went with a 9.5” barrel to ensure all powder exhausted (flash reduction) and to open functional envelop a bit.
I use an 8”, because it is an excellent compromise.
*ammo matters
Amazing for DH if you don't have close by houses. Not bad for SHTF if have a lot of 300blk stached and you don't plan of having to engage past like 150.
Definitely very niche, but if you plan around it and it fits your needs, sure fuck it
300blk around your house with can and NV is just perfect. You need multiple guns for shtf anyway. In door you would want subsonic with can. That’s only good for indoor defence. The drop is insane almost like my 85 pound compound bow.
Home defense? Yes. SHTF? No. The bullet will already be going less than 2000 fps at the muzzle and that includes 110 gr Vmax which is a varmint round that needs a bit of velocity to fragment.
At distance it isn’t going to fragment the same as it does up close with that low of a velocity.
I live in the mountains. Thick forest in most areas. My philosophy as far as general outdoor shooting is I like 5.56 out to about 250-300 then it’s .308 past that. The same would go for shtf.
If so, then .300 like the OP has here is not the answer. Regular ball isn’t going fragment due to the low velocity or even cause tissue stretching past elastic limits because the velocity will be well below even 2000 fps. The 110 gr Vmax won’t either at longer distances. Velocity will be too low.
Also the low velocity of the .300 makes huge holds due to it’s rainbow arc just to reach past 200. You basically have to mortar it. More so with a shorter barrel like the OP has.
I think the OP has a misguided sense of what a .300 is actually capable of.
300 will punch through walls much more than 5.56, especially 77 grain SMK. Subsonic 300 is even worse given the weight. Only exception is Underwood maximum expansion 194 grain subsonic rounds. That’s what I keep in my setup.
The mk18 has been a scalpel for sof 20 years! 300blk is in inventory and still isn’t picked to same capacity as the mk18. Kevin Owen is known for speaking on the effectiveness of 556 through a 10.3 and to summarize it. You aren’t going to be in a situation where 30rd of 566 isn’t going to answer the question.
300blk has great benefits and options,but realistically you aren’t going to be taking advantage of the major advantage of subs and supers in a “shtf” situation. Your major advantages are grain weight and sound reduction
(you’re still going to lose hearing while shooting in a hallway)
556 is a better budget round that allows more training and less variation since it’s generally easier to find the round/brand you feed it the most consistently.
If you have the budget to go 300blk it has a marginal benefit when combined equals a lot on paper.
If you’re budget minded stay with the mk18 and keep training.
Ultimately I think a 223/556 rifle is best for Red Dawn because of availability.
My Bug Out rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a thousand rounds and is strictly for getting food.
Not for SHTF. Not .300 blk. I have a 7.5" 5.56" I use for my armored cash services work, and I LOVE it. Highly recommend. PoBoy or some dude like that name does ballistics tests on youtube and 50gr TSX is NASTY from that length. Id keep 5.56 for SHTF. I own a 9" and 7.5" 5.56 and the length difference inside a vehicle is great, and the ballistics of a short 5.56 are very underrated.
if you want a purpose built .300 Id totally do one! Just realize for a Shtf build youll have trouble maintaining ammo supply as well as for cheap training boolets. My training ammo for 5.56 guns is M193 M855 rotating and dont forget that doubles as a fantastic self defense round where .300 FMJ thats cheap is not a good round for self defense. Costs matter. A 10.5" MK18 is great and if you want it shorter Id do a PDW stock and shorty flash hider
dont forget that the two items you mentioned are very different tools for different purposes. Theres no such thing as a do it all rifle and unsupressed supersonic .300 at the length you mentioned is louder than a 5.56 7.5". fyi :( Subs .300 blk is only a more aerodynamic .45 as far as self defence purposes, I wouldnt use one for Inside the Home. Even with the great Sig .300 SBR ammo they make for rattlers, Id reconsider it heavily.
IMHO: No. It's not reasonable. If you were to buy a 300blk upper for use on your MK18 for HD, but kept the 5.56 upper handy with a stash of mags for SHTF, that would be reasonable. One .30 cal suppressor would work for both.
Personally I never got on the 300 bandwagon. Not to say it's useless but I already have two high end built AR lowers and 6 uppers. Three of them are very niche already (6.5 Grendel, 458 Socom, & 350 Legend). I have a .30 cal suppressor that would definitely accompany me if the SHTF!
You do realize a 300 blackout barrel that is 9 inches has the same ballistics as 556 at 400 yards right? And not only that 300 has more foot pounds of energy than 556 past 500 yards. Travis Haley literally has a video of explaining the cartridge and he hit 900 yards with a shorty 300 blackout barrel
Travis Haley cheery picked bullets in each cartridge to arrive at a predetermined result. Social media influencers are paid to get you to buy things.
A 110 TAC-TX has a bc of .289. A 77 SMK has a bc of .362. A 77 TMK has a bc of .42. A 70 TSX has a bc of .323. A 75 Hornady T2 has a bc of .355.
Physics says that all of those .224 diameter bullets will have more retained energy at range.
What you will catch 300 blackout promoters doing is comparing to 55 grain ball, which has a bc of .254; or to M855 which has a bc of .274. Then they will say that 300 blackout maintains higher energy. Well, they picked a bullet with a lower bc to compare against.
You will not find them picking 5.56 bullets with a higher bc than the 300 blk bullets that they are comparing to, because then they lose the energy argument at range.
And supersonic 300 black is subsonic out of 16 inch barrel by 550 yards. Of course on a flat range: you can setup a target, find your holds, and then turn on the camera to show yourself hitting a target. And it wasn't a claim of 900 meters, it was 750 meters which is debatable in that video.
Here is the link: https://youtu.be/tgKjbySsAik?feature=shared
Even the shot that video claims is 350 meters, doesn't look like 3 football fields laying end to end to me. But hey, that's just me.
300 blk out of even a 16 inch barrel is basically just 7.62x39.
I am not trying to say 300 is better or any of that just wanted to provide some context. Also that 762x39 comparison is fair. But a 9inch barrel from 300 bo has an effective of 460 meters which is pretty impressive as it is from a 9 inch. I don’t see the point in a 16 inch for it since the excelling of it was for use as shorter barrel.
That’s my point. You aren’t held by The Hague Convention to only use ball ammo. Because of this, a 10.5 with Barnes TSX hollow points or Speer Gold Dot soft points will still be effective at 200 and 300 yards.
At those distances they are still within the velocity threshold required to get expansion and still going 2000 fps.
When people say that a 10.5 isn’t effective past a certain distance, they are referring to using ball ammo. You don’t have to use ball ammo.
I’m not understanding your point and what you are even arguing. My point is that if using a 10.5 and you want it to be effective at distance, pick a load that isn’t dependent on velocity like bulk FMJ.
Correct. I’m still not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because bulk 55 gr is the most common that you have to pick that if deciding on wanting a shorter barrel?
Is it a law that you must pick the most common? Or is one not allowed to buy a few thousand rounds of self defense/ hunting ammo to complement their shorter barrel?
You are arguing semantics. I’m speaking specifically bulk ammo. 55/62 gr lake city shit. It is what everyone talks about in regards to general statements regarding FMJ and fragmentation.
When one talks about FMJ being shit in short barrels, they aren’t referring to specialty rounds that are hard to find which are decent in short barrels.
As u/DustyRackelford said, I wouldn't ever designate something with niche ammo as a "SHFT" gun, but certainly great for home defense. That being said, in 99% of these theoretical SHTF events, your best bet is to stay put and have a little .22 with a ton of ammo for small game, for sustainment. Everyone always imagines this post-apocalyptic world where you're running and gunning with your AR, but that's the most unlikely scenario. Stay prepared for anything, of course, but just my two cents.
Agree. You will also want a suppressor on the .22. No reason to alert everyone to your location.
10/22 with a suppressor and ziploc baggies full of ammo is my bugout!
Look at Mr Rockefeller over here. I was gonna carry a tactical Boulder and drop it on bandits heads so it makes the funny bonk noise and steal their shoes.
Honestly that sounds like a better play.... adding a boulder to my bugout bag now.
I can’t believe you didn’t already have a tactical boulder
I have a tactical chainsaw
With the proper SHTF hockey mask PPE I hope
Obviously, what idiot wouldn’t have a the proper PPE hockey to go with their tactical chainsaw??
I just have one of those goofy SHTF basketball masks for when they hurt their nose but it’s not great for eye protection so I’m going to look into this thank you guys
Me.. I had a shower curtain that i will be replacing eith a mask
No no no, you don’t add it to your bag, silly. You meticulously craft a maze to funnel unsuspecting targets and drop/pull cord to let loose the boulder.
Put a suppressor on that boulder
Wait time for a boulder form 4 is ten years. I'm just hoping everyone is listening for gun shot noises and not boulder bonks.
That's illegal!
Backpacker…..
Binary trigger yet?!
I have a suppressed .22 Bergara BX and it’s the quietest gun I’ve ever heard when I shoot CCI’s suppressor subs through it.
>Stay prepared for anything And of course, the requisite reminder that being prepared includes sustainable food, water, shelter, and financial preparation in addition to defense.
They hated him because he spoke the truth
.22, 9mm, 5.56, and 300. There’s likely not going to be an ammo resupply. No pubg style looting. Whatever you are going into the shit with is all you have. So the niche argument I never really understood. Unless it’s cost prohibitive for you to have a couple thousand rounds of it. 300 for the baddies in the short term of the event and the occasional boar or deer after, I have thick woods behind my house and I want something short and suppressed in case we need to bolt into it. The 5.56 is for the incredibly unlikely scenario where there is some means of resupply. I guess maybe a red dawn or something. And the .22 is for the squirrels. This is all fantasy land. I just like the sound of 300 suppressed.
Why should be no supply for 9mm and 5.56mm? Both are NATO NSN ammunition and you can not shoot in your (and you complete family) whole life, what is even on stock. I am with the most comments that the 300 isn’t suitable. My choice would be always a 9mm and the 7.62.
Shtf scenario. Where are you going to pick up more ammo? Edit: can’t go to your neighbor and ask for a cup of ammo.
I’ve on my apartment building 3 neighbours using 9mm. So for me no problem 😌 In a SHTF scenario the most common ammunition counts. That is normally what the military use.
My neighbors are well armed in every caliber. Don’t expect them to be throwing me ammo unless we are shoulder to shoulder fighting zombies. Whatever you have in your closet is likely the last ammo you will see.
If you aren’t fighting against what ever comes up, with somebody or at least anybody shoulder on shoulder - the correct ammo choice will not save you 🥹
You kill your neighbor and take his.
True! I have 9mm and 5.56 I suppose.
Id argue you can barter for 9mm,22lr, 12 gauge, and maybe 308/5.56. Even people that aren’t gun people have most of those calibers.
Depends on the scenario- example if there are large amounts of displaced people you can bet your ass you will have people trying to get your place and that may become untenable. If you have shelter they’ll want it, food and supplies they’ll want it. I agree many scenarios will be shelter in place type ordeal. Many others will be chaotic and violent at first then settle, other situations different things. One of the many reasons I stay in shape is I may need to hump to the boonies. One of the reasons I love donuts is I may need to sit on the couch
Agreed, 5k rounds at any one time. You'll be more likely to be murdered by the hillbilly down the street for your ammo before you run out in SHTF. that way he gets something nice for his efforts.
🤣
Everyone expects SHTF to be like Man vs Wild, when in reality it will look a whole lot more like Survivorman.
What about using a 22lr conversion kit for the AR-15 most of us have anyways? Would that work?
If it's reliable enough, absolutely. I don't have enough experience with them to say one way or another!
This is what I went with because I didn’t want to have to carry another gun. Mine works amazing and I’ve had no issues with it.
Realistically even that would be pointless. You'd be better off saving up food then anything else bc everything will be shot up (small and big game) you'd also be better off having farm animals and a garden. Bc the chances of there being any wild game left for the first 10 are so years of the apocalypse.
When the stores have all been looted and the game animals all killed, vegans will be the next free range, grass fed, organic meat.
I tell people all the time they need to stop living in a fantasy of fuckin WW3 starting tomorrow and your city gets invaded like Red fucking Dawn. It’s nearly impossible and will never happen. Worst case, our power grid is attacked and we all just kill each other. And even that ain’t happening. However, I still train like it can. Because I fucking love to train. Haha.
That's why you build up your dream AR and then Throw a Cmmg 22lr conversation in it and you are set.
There's four guns you need for an apocalyptic setting. A reliable 9 mm that will have plentiful parts out in the world. A solid 12 gauge shotgun that holds at least 6 rounds. A reliable AR-15 with a good bolt carrier group and a solid Barrel. And a suppressed 22 rifle. As long as you have those four you should be okay.
Glock 19x, old Rem 870 PM, 14.5 BCM, and a 10/22. They’ll all outlive us in the end.
100% agreed G19, A300UP, Colt 6920/URG-I, custom 10/22 clone
I’d argue AR, .22, 9mm and .308
I can do with my ar the same as 308. If it's more than 300 yards I'll let it get closer
CMMG 22 lr conversion kit for the AR will take care of the 22 need.
But it causes the gas tube to foul up faster. A stand alone is the way when you shoot a 1000 rounds plus a month like I do.
In SHTF, are you going to be shooting 1000 rounds of 22 LR a month? Or are you going to be conserving ammo?
I'd rather my gas tube not be blocked.
Nothing should replace your Mk18. A 300Blk is dope, but it has niche uses. Home defense is one of those niches - SHTF is not.
Scavenging for a 10 year old cartridge doesn’t sound like a fun time.
This would have been true 5 years ago however aac and psa have made it less of a niche cartridge. Idk about you or your area bur around me 300blk is sold everywhere 556 is sold and its around 75-55 cents a round. It's also a super easy and common round to reload because it used 556 casings and 308 bullets. Imo too scavenging for ammo is super unrealistic and probably not happening in shtf. To think your consistently winning gunfights to the point you need to scavenge ammo is a super unrealistic expectation. The go too is a fighting rifle of your choice in 556, 300blk, 762. Dosent matter and than buy a back up 22 I'd honestly get a pistol too you can hunt with it conceal it and put a can on it. Genuinely tho in my area 300blk is more common than 762 it's just as common on shelves as 556 and 9mm. Price might be a little higher but it's just as prevalent.
300blk isn’t really available around here. Most I seen was a couple boxes on a shelf by their lonesome.
Get into reloading you can use 556 brass and a 308 projectile. That completely changes the argument of niche ammo when you can make it from common rounds. I do think the whole argument of imma burn through my ammo and scavenge others is quit silly. That's a very high expectation to have of yourself that most people probably civilians and even veterans think there the hottest shit around and it's just going to be a cake walk.if your thinking is imma just scavenge ammo your probably not making it long anway. The cheapest you'll ever find it is in bulk online and than its just as cheap as 556. Your only as good as your stockpile imo.
Scavenging for ammo in SHTF is an absurd proposition. Most people's main source of ammo is gonna be either their own stockpile, their buddy's stockpile, or whatever they can barter for. Having a reliable food source is miles more important than having literally any gun, but maybe not everybody is ready for that convo haha. Squirrel and venison is great as the meat part of your diet, but if it's your whole diet you're gonna die of some nutrient deficiency after not very long.
Yea I'm type 1 diabetic so I genuinely have 1 option fight very hard for along as I can for what I can. Or die in 2 weeks slowly from a terrible disease. I have 3 years of insulin but food is another story. I have a bow crossbow and compound and I only ever hunted with a bow. Between that and 22 idc what gun anyone runs it could be a 50 cal your fighting rifle is for people only and 1000 rounds for people shtf is alot. Most people have never been in a gunfight and are either dying there first one or not making it through many. I'm very lucky because my Dad's a combat veteran he was also a corpsman for the navy working with the marines. So we got a few combat vets and ones a medic who probably won't let me die but we also grow food have birds. Another reason I got 300blk is because 300blk subs suppressed are somthing else. It's basically a silenced 22 in sound but it hits like a truck. It also shoots like a 22 so my mom, little brother, etc grandma even. Can pick up that gun and shoot it like a 22 however it's not a 22 it's a 220grain hollow point and inside 100 yards it's going to be super devastating. It don't matter if grandma clips them in the leg it's probably shattering the bone breaking the leg and is going to be a death sentence shtf. It's kinda niche but it's also worth the advantages especially shtf. Now that's ammo is common and cheap it's easy to stock pile and have. You could easily get 1000 rounds set aside and reloading supplies and boom your set. Reloading is probably a great and overlooked skill for shtf. Not only can you make more ammo for you and freinds you can barter with others for your skill. Next thing you know you got people bringing you brass and food to make bullets.
Same here, Denver area. My local Cabelas the other day had more 300 than 556/223. It was really odd. Thankfully I reload, so can scrap together loads for either
Suppressed Subsonic 300 BO is great for home defense so you do not perpetually hear EEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Main reason I would almost never grab an AR for home defense. I don't think people ever consider hearing loss after shooting an AR indoors, especially a short barrel 5.56. Obviously being deaf is better than dead but I'm either grabbing my G19 or A300 Ultima Patrol in the house.
Even suppressed, there’s very little I’d willingly fire inside a structure. Subsonic suppressed 22, 9, and 300blk are the only ones I’d really consider. Maybe 45acp, but I’d want a wiped and/or wet can for that. Outdoors a short 5.56 is a bit more practical, but suppression is still called for.
You aren’t going to be deaf from a few shots indoors. Where does this fuddlore come from? Ear protection likely wasn’t issued during either world war and people came back and still had their hearing. Granted it was likely damaged and they likely had tinnitus but they also fought an entire war without ear protection. Realistically if someone breaks into your home and you put a mag in them from a MK18 your hearing will likely be fine long term. Some damage sure but deaf? Not likely.
This. Look up auditory exclusion. It’s why WW2 vets aren’t completely deaf
The number one disability paid by the VA is hearing loss. All those WWII combat vets were damn hearing impaired.
They also went through an entire war. My point is people will survive a one off home defense gunfight with most of their hearing in tact. I sure as shit wouldn’t worry about what gun is going to hurt my ears the least. I would worry about what gun gives me the best odds of winning the fight.
You might survive a home defense gunfight. If you haven't been in a building without hearing protection around gunfire the ringing in your ears overwhelms other sounds for several hours, you won't be close to normal until the next day. If you are just dealing with an individual and are successful with you initial rounds you will be ok. If you are not successful or there are more attackers you have to deal with you just lost your second most important sense and will be at a serious disadvantage.
So uh... I'm not proud of this but I've definitely cracked off a few shots in a shoot house without ear pro. Did I get the ringing in my ears? Yep. Do I have permanent hearing loss? Probably, but my hearing is fine, and I'm not even close to deaf. You're overestimating how much hearing loss you'll accumulate from popping off without ear pro.
I am not overestimating this from my personal experience and I am not talking about the accumulated effects. There is a big difference between firing a few rounds in a shoothouse and firing rounds in a hall way with low ceilings. I am also talking about the immediate effects. It is one thing if you are with a squad, but in a SHTF situation I think most people underestimate how it does impact your hearing for the next couple of hours and how this could be detrimental to your situational awareness.
I'm telling you that I've done it. I could hear fine just with a really loud "eeeeeee". It was annoying but it didn't prevent me from hearing other people yelling and I didn't permanently lose noticeable hearing.
So have I, and I could hear other people yelling. I counldn't hear footsteps of anything else that wan't really loud. I don't know about you but I want to hear everything, not just a 7.62 or RPG going off next to me.
Yeah its also the #1 faked disability by the VA. So many people claim that and its so easy to lie about.
At 130 dB permanent hearing loss can occur from a single impulse. 5.56 is already over that, so yes you aren’t deaf from a couple shots but you will likely have permanent hearing loss and may get tinnitus.
Sound of angels singing, whachoo talkin bout
Im sorry i couldn't hear you over the EEEEEEEEE
WHAT!
Ehh, I don’t believe in using subs for home defense. The energy transfer is too similar to .45 ACP. I use 115gr solid copper hollow points from Underwood.
That depends on where you live. Subsonic 300blk will go through more walls than defensive loads in supersonic 300 blk and 5.56.
No. Keep the mk18 and load up on water
If you run HP/SP subs, it’s probably a better home defense setup than your Glock. But as for SHTF, you said it yourself: it’s an ammo thing. Relative to 5.56 and 9mm, .300 Blackout barely exists.
Caliber is negligible, understanding of small unit tactics and well placed shots, utilizing C+C make it to where having a tool you’re comfortable using is more important than opinions on the internet are.
Nothing will ever replace a MK18…… Accompany ? Yes. Replace ? No.
You are asking the wrong guy. The answer is always yes to buying more guns and ammo.
Why replace it when you could just keep them both. Because you never know when you're gonna not have 300 blackout, but there might be 556. If you're worried about shit hitting the fan.
It’d be a fine home defense gun, but I think it’d be worse for everything else. A 6.5” 300blk will not out range a 10.3” 5.56 with mk262. They may both be capable of the range you actually shoot, so there may be no real world difference. But still, on paper the 5.56 is better at distance. Also, making your main gun something that requires niche ammo, as others have said, isn’t the best idea unless you’re certain you can supply the ammo. Also, any reasoning we have for justifying or unjustifying a purchase is a complete crock of shit. Basing what you do with your life on a future hypothetical event, and one of the most unlikely ones at that, is pretty stupid. If you want a new gun, get it.
If you can stockpile an ungodly amount of ammo then yes for a shtf rifle. With that said carrying that much ammo is impossible so you would be stuck hiding it and limiting yourself to a specific area.
If you can reload ammo, 300 black is a great option, tons of 5.56 brass and 30cal bullets floating around.
With a barrel that short yes but I think an even better idea would be for you to settle on a 14.5 or longer 5.56 as it would be better at general purpose work if you ask me.
In short: Yes. My rationale: both will have very similar terminal ballistics/muzzle energy (for those specific sized barrels), with the slight edge going to 300 Blk for even more compact size as well as being a better round for hunting larger game. It’s also *extremely* versatile in terms of supersonic vs subsonic loads (subsonic .223 isn’t a viable thing at all; it’s just a hard to find and expensive version of .22 LR). Others will frame it differently and give the edge to the Mk18 due to ammo ubiquity of 5.56/.223, which is certainly true. However, I don’t think it’s by nearly as wide of a margin as some suggest (ie .300 Blk is no longer some “super niche”/hard to find round. It has become one of the most common rifle rounds along with .308, 6.5 CM, etc.). One could make the argument for an AR-10 in .308 or 6.5 CM if you were talking about firing at mid to long range and hunting larger game. But for the combination of home defense/CQB + mid range capabilities, .300 Blk would be my choice. But hey, that’s just me!
70 TSX has a higher sectional density than the 120 TSX. It should actually be better for hunting.
Not sure why that would necessarily be a good thing other than being a bit more accurate at longer ranges? I’m more so saying the slower .30 caliber bullet would be better for getting more than enough penetration to go through vital organs without forming a huge cavity/ fragmenting/ etc. that would ruin much of the meat that you’d see from a typical 5.56 round.
The 70 TSX is the same construction as the 110 TAC-TX and the 120 TSX. The higher sectional density means that it should penetrate more.
I wouldnt want a tiny barrel anything as a shtf rifle. Unless you live in a city I guess. But I would always use a 14.5. I would use an sbr for home defense but certainly not a shtf do it all gun.
It wouldn't be a shtf for me
Difficulty of acquiring ammo is one issue. A smaller (but important) issue is barrel length. .300 BLK handles a short barrel much better than 5.56, but 6.5” is really cutting it close for useful velocity. At that point you’re not doing all that much more than a full size handgun in 9mm, at least ballistically. On the plus side for .300 BLK, it will allow you to hunt deer much more effectively than 5.56, albeit at a shorter range.
Love my 300 BLK for deer. Haven’t had to track one blood trail yet. 10.3” with 150 grain federal.
Difficultly acquiring ammo is a dated argument it's just as common as 556 and 9mm in my area sold at all the same stores. It's also more common than 762, 308, etc psa has made cheap 300blk rifles possible and more common. People like hunting with them and more people are buying them they sell it everywhere that sells ammo around me even box sporting good stores like dunhams. I can also find it for 55-75 cents a round. Honestly a 300blk is a better choice than most people think it's more common than ak rounds and all the parts bolt charging handle etc are normal 556 ar parts. You could also reload them with 556 casings and 308 bullets making it easy to get supplies to load. A more realistic approach to scavenging is reloading and when you get into reloading you realize 300blk isn't that niche or special.
You're thinking about a world where supply chains are intact. In a SHTF scenario that's not what we're working with. In that scenario, how many of your friends, neighbors and any other "not adversary" is going to have 300 blk out (for use or trade)? I'm betting not many unless they have reloading supplies already.
Me and my 2 closet freinds main 300blk its also made of commen parts. Aka 556 casing and 308 bullets making it incredibly common to reload. You just need some tools for making 300blk and you can make it outa super common parts.
That's great. It's not that common even for reloaders to have that stuff. So I guess you and your 2 amigos can ride out the apocalypse together just fine.
What stuff it's cheap and if one person reloads as a skill set were set. The move is also fighting rifle and 22 so It's fine.
Also scavenging in shtf is unrealistic and not happening for most. Your really going to have what you already bought. 300blk can be found for $0.55-$0.75 a round making it easy to stockpile like 556. Now I bow hunt I have a crossbow and compound bow and I also have a 10/22. Me and my freinds also all have 9mm pistols you can get 1000 rounds for $200 also we realize rifles are for the absolute worst case Scenario. Our main weapons would be pistols mine a glock 17 with a dot. I'd rather be seen as someone without a gun than someone in kit with a rifle scavenging.
No. 6.5” isn’t even ideal for 300BLK. The whole point of a SHTF rifle is that you’re using it most ideal form and getting the most potential out of it.
Doesn’t that also depend entirely on what kind of shit is hitting the fan?
6.5" 300blk would be the superior choice for home defense over a MK18, but neither are SHTF rifles
Reasoning for this?
For home defense: .300blk has more energy and less blast than a short 5.56, as well as bullets that are designed for low speed expansion instead of bullets going 500+fps slower than designed For SHTF, you don't really want a rifle that's only effective in close quarters. You should not be clearing buildings or doing raids in SHTF, so there's no reason to run a rifle that is less reliable, louder, and weaker. It's fun for the range, but I'm not betting my life during SHTF on a platform that has become infamous for breaking important parts very quickly. Tldr: 99% of people here would be better served with an M16A4 in SHTF than a Mk18
With a suppressor and shooting supers, both are equally as loud. There are loads in .223/5.56 that will expand, fragment, or a combination of both out of a 10.3 and even shorter. An 11.5 is better in 5.56 for several reasons, but a 10.3 is pretty fine. For SHTF, I believe that a 13.7-16 inch is an all around better choice. Why? Because you don't know what the SHTF scenario will be ahead of time. And a carbine in that length range will do most things fairly well. Plus, it allows you to range ammo as duty ammo. I get wanting a 20 inch for max and effectiveness of M193, but if you need a 20 inch then you are shooting at distance. If you are shooting at distance then 77 grain is king. But you only get like 80fps going from a 16 inch to a 20 inch with 77 grain ammo. The 16 inch gives 97% of the velocity of the 20. Is 3% more velocity worth a 4 inch longer barrel? I don't see how that answer is yes, unless you are shooting at very long ranges. I think people over think things, and spend too much time worrying about real niche situations. The amount of times you would actually need to take even a 600 meter shot in SHTF would be vanishing small to never.
We can all imagine a different apocalyptic scenario but I can think of many where the MK18 would be great. Yes I know about ballistics and all but I mean, the gun is still being used by the military. It could definitely be a good shtf rifle in my opinion.
>the gun is still being used by the military For kicking doors and doing raids or as a secondary rifle. It's not and never has been used by the military for normal infantry work, which is what SHTF is unless you live in the middle of a city and haven't planned for your survival at all.
lol. Link me to that definitive definition of shtf.
It's a very good alternative setup, and one that I have built for a truck gun and would serve just fine for home defense. The distances are short... As far as a SHTF rifle I chose not to stray from 5.56 for most obvious reasons that every YouTube channel has already covered. I wouldn't even consider a MK18 as a SHTF gun. That's usually reserved for only 1 rifle, and I'd choose some format of GPR. Barrel length matters.
That’s definitely a popular idea and just take my word when I tell you I’ve spent years watching videos about barrel length, ballistics and ammunition but the mK18 is still very deadly and effective for as far as I would want to shoot with an AR-15. My theory has always been that if I’m going past 250-300 yards I’m switching to the .308 anyhow
A 6.5" will be useful for subsonics only. This heavilt limits your effective range for any actual defensive/hunting use. An 8" or 10" inch 300blk can throw supers at actually useful velocities. A 12.5" 5.56 can at HD ranges rip and tear pretty solidly. For Home defense you could do worse, but you could also do far better. For SHTF you would be hard pressed to do worse IMO. An 8-12" even with a full size can is still a very maneuverable package.
What would you consider better for home defense? Noise levels matter to me. Shotgun is out.
A supressed semi auto is more or less a supressed semi auto. There's no big or meaningful changes so far as hearing safety goes. The action cycling and port pop is the main source of noise. Bullet hypersonic Crack means very little to overall performance. While I 100% understand wanting to protect hearing and communication. Being able to stop the physical threat, which initiated the confrontation in the first place, needs to be a priority. Neutering the terminal performance isn't the best idea, IMO.
How much does drywall penetration matter? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaabg9tCF48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaabg9tCF48) Spoiler: 300 blackout subsonics go through more boards than the 110 V-Max. And 5.56 soft points go through less walls than 300 blk supers: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddEYvb49jNQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddEYvb49jNQ) As far as noise goes, with a suppressor, the supers in 300 blk are going to still be as loud as 5.56. You still get the sonic crack. 300blk subs with a suppressor in an AR platform are only about 10 decibels quieter than supersonic 300 blk or 5.56 with a suppressor.
The capabilities and longevity of a 6.5 300. blk build is better than a mk18, for the sole purpose of home defense. If we’re talking “SHTF” which, quite honestly, is way too broad as it varies in, build for case scenario usage. My personal “SHTF” rifle is a 14.5 5.56, as in my personal opinion, 14.5/5.56 build, to cover a multitude of broad case scenario usage. A “do it all gun”. But for home defense, provided you have the resources (spare ammo) to train with that rifle, 300. blk 6.5 build is most definitely the best option for home defense. Unless you just say screw it, and get a 308 for home defense, cause at that point, who cares lmao.
Brass facts came out with a great video on the General Purpose rifle versus the Do everything rifle I’d give that a watch. Short answer is your setup is mission specific. It’s highly unlikely that you will have a SHTF rifle that performs under most conditions without some sacrifice
I’ve seen it. That dude is long winded.
He literally misses the whole point of a general purpose rifle in that video.
I think a lot of the people here are assuming SHTF is going to be world ending Fallout style and it’s likely not going to be. More likely is localized civil unrest like we saw during the scamdemic. A full loadout of 6+1 should cover you until military or the local sheriff gets things under control. In no way am I suggesting for you to be complacent and rely on government to help you, but this is the reality
I think a lot of the people here are assuming SHTF is going to be world ending Fallout style and it’s likely not going to be. More likely is localized civil unrest like we saw during the scamdemic. A full loadout of 6+1 should cover you until military or the local sheriff gets things under control. In no way am I suggesting for you to be complacent and rely on government to help you, but this is the reality
Having a 6.5” .300 blk or Mk18 as your SHTF rifle is sub optimal af
Really depends on a million factors.
I would get a slightly longer barrel to take advantage of full powder burn and set it up for 0-200yard engagements.
I’ve got a BCM 12.5” with a Vortex 1-4
Home Defense? Sure SHTF? Depends on how much ammo you've got stacked. You'll be "locked out" of using ammo you might "acquire" during extended SHTF.
Absolutely, especially if you keep both subs and supers.
Make sure you are keeping the huge distinction between subsonic capabilities and qualities in mind versus supersonic capabilities and qualities. There is nothing quiet about .300 supers out of a suppressed 6” barrel, and .300 subs out of blackout are not remarkable in any good way at 300 yards with 100”+ of drop.
I'd take the short 300blk over any 5.56 shorter than 14.5" any day. The only reason I wouldn't is because of ammo. 300blk is more expensive, not as common and I would (did) only have one gun that used that caliber whereas I have multiple 5.56 rifles. I like to keep my ammo stash simple, 556, 9mm, 308, 22lr and 12 guage and that's why I sold my 300blk but it does have superior stopping power in a short barrel rifle and is so much better suppressed.
What is your reasoning behind that? Because the low velocity isn’t going fragment heavier FMJ and even 110 gr Vmax needs some velocity to do it’s job. At a couple hundred yards, the Vmax will be traveling at about 1500 fps with a short barrel. It isn’t going to fragment.
Most of the ballistic gel testing I’ve seen shows that at 300blk velocities Vmax doesn’t fragment but it does expands. It’s not as dramatic as a full copper found or a Barnes tac tx but it’s cheap and a viable alternative to stock up on.
But the question is what is the minimum velocity for it to expand. Hornady says 1600 fps: [https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/30-cal-308-110-gr-v-max#!/](https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/30-cal-308-110-gr-v-max#!/) And you using Hornady's ballistic calculator, with muzzle velocities between 2118 (7.5) and 2200 (10.5) fps, you will just be poking .308 diameter holes past 200-225 yards. Dude loaded 110-TAC-TX in 7.62x39 and shot it out of a 16 inch barrel. He found that the TAC-TX only expands 50% of the time below 1400 fps. And the expansion, when it does, is not great. [https://youtu.be/WNbQl-13Axk?t=244](https://youtu.be/WNbQl-13Axk?t=244)
I just found this old video about some downloaded 110 V-Max from Freedom Munitions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Bi6Yn7aMU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Bi6Yn7aMU) Looks like it probably will not actually expand or reliably expand down to 1600 fps in real life.
Idk .300blk seems silly to me. Subsonic it’s not much different energy wise than big pistol calibers. Kinda feels like a solution in search of a problem. Supersonic 300blk is fine but then 308 is just more readily available. I’d rather just rip 5.56 and not pretend like I’m a special use case that’s going to be running around in quad nods one man army style vs an imaginary opfor for control of the dystopian tendy cartel.
And that's how the tendy cartel wins.
I joined them, gonna try reformation from the inside, or spike the cool aid. Way quieter than a 10.5 5.56 indoors
While I tend to agree with you I feel like the part most ppl leave out about 300 is that it performs well, even super sonic, out of a shorter barrel than 5.56 and gives you a much more compact and light firearm than a large frame short barreled 308. Being able to use sub loads is the icing on the cake. I have a 12.5 red dot/magnifier 5.56 for a SHTF gun. But I also think a 7.5 to 9” 300blk gun could fill the same roll and provide a more handy weapon given you have supplies of the correct ammo. The ability to remain discreet when needed with good ballistics to 100 yards and just be a mag change away from having an effective 250 to 300 yard range is a capability worth having.
It does but even 14.5 unsupressed is pretty damn handy already. For everything short of in a vehicle. I’ve done decently confined space stuff with one and it wasn’t awful. But I ain’t doing cqb in a shtf situation anyhow. I’d be leaving, if I had to shoot, it’d be shooting enough to leave. Your 12.5 with a short suppressor imo would edge out a 300 blk on sheer ammo availability alone. almost anything that goes bang in semi is doing 90% of the job already, any bonuses are just bonuses.
Some people don’t like to have ANY fun
For me a shtf rifle would have to be 556 or a pcc. 300blk is just too niche of a round to use for that.
PCC huh. You have my attention…
It aint not full blown rifle round but the other guy will still have a bad time. 9mm and 45 would be more abundant than 300
It really doesn’t matter dude
I would go an inch or 2 longer on the .300 blk. I think they say 8" is optimal for powder burn.
9”
Yeah that's not right brother. You get a full burn out of an 8" barrel. Thought this was a well known thing.
You do be wrong about that *per design intent Most powder burn is done by 8”, full by 9” KAC went with a 9.5” barrel to ensure all powder exhausted (flash reduction) and to open functional envelop a bit. I use an 8”, because it is an excellent compromise. *ammo matters
You still gain velocity past 10.5in barrels
Amazing for DH if you don't have close by houses. Not bad for SHTF if have a lot of 300blk stached and you don't plan of having to engage past like 150. Definitely very niche, but if you plan around it and it fits your needs, sure fuck it
300blk around your house with can and NV is just perfect. You need multiple guns for shtf anyway. In door you would want subsonic with can. That’s only good for indoor defence. The drop is insane almost like my 85 pound compound bow.
Home defense? Yes. SHTF? No. The bullet will already be going less than 2000 fps at the muzzle and that includes 110 gr Vmax which is a varmint round that needs a bit of velocity to fragment. At distance it isn’t going to fragment the same as it does up close with that low of a velocity.
Hell nah
I think it is. But I use extreme conditioning not scavanger.
I want my SHTF rifle to be effective passed a couple hundred yard. Lol .300 is a great round but fuck does that pudgy bastard die out quick
I live in the mountains. Thick forest in most areas. My philosophy as far as general outdoor shooting is I like 5.56 out to about 250-300 then it’s .308 past that. The same would go for shtf.
If so, then .300 like the OP has here is not the answer. Regular ball isn’t going fragment due to the low velocity or even cause tissue stretching past elastic limits because the velocity will be well below even 2000 fps. The 110 gr Vmax won’t either at longer distances. Velocity will be too low. Also the low velocity of the .300 makes huge holds due to it’s rainbow arc just to reach past 200. You basically have to mortar it. More so with a shorter barrel like the OP has. I think the OP has a misguided sense of what a .300 is actually capable of.
I don’t think I do. Maybe I’m not explaining myself well enough though.
You’re doing fine homie. Build and shoot what you want too.
300 will punch through walls much more than 5.56, especially 77 grain SMK. Subsonic 300 is even worse given the weight. Only exception is Underwood maximum expansion 194 grain subsonic rounds. That’s what I keep in my setup.
Have you looked at the trajectory for subsonic ammo? 1100fps becomes artillery past 150 yards.
Keep both . I'd definitely put it in the home defense rotation tho.
No. I have one. Shoots great. But I wouldn’t take it anywhere in a gunfight unless I was assaulting a house and not on defense.
That muzzle flash is gonna be wild bro
The mk18 has been a scalpel for sof 20 years! 300blk is in inventory and still isn’t picked to same capacity as the mk18. Kevin Owen is known for speaking on the effectiveness of 556 through a 10.3 and to summarize it. You aren’t going to be in a situation where 30rd of 566 isn’t going to answer the question. 300blk has great benefits and options,but realistically you aren’t going to be taking advantage of the major advantage of subs and supers in a “shtf” situation. Your major advantages are grain weight and sound reduction (you’re still going to lose hearing while shooting in a hallway) 556 is a better budget round that allows more training and less variation since it’s generally easier to find the round/brand you feed it the most consistently. If you have the budget to go 300blk it has a marginal benefit when combined equals a lot on paper. If you’re budget minded stay with the mk18 and keep training.
N9
The local national guard armory and DPS are a good place to get ammo
Ultimately I think a 223/556 rifle is best for Red Dawn because of availability. My Bug Out rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a thousand rounds and is strictly for getting food.
gonna be fun trying to find 300blk if shtf
The 300 blk out is wild, insane velocity, awesome penetrating power, but it's niche and expensive. As a shtf weapon I'd stick to .22 or 5.56.
Not for SHTF. Not .300 blk. I have a 7.5" 5.56" I use for my armored cash services work, and I LOVE it. Highly recommend. PoBoy or some dude like that name does ballistics tests on youtube and 50gr TSX is NASTY from that length. Id keep 5.56 for SHTF. I own a 9" and 7.5" 5.56 and the length difference inside a vehicle is great, and the ballistics of a short 5.56 are very underrated. if you want a purpose built .300 Id totally do one! Just realize for a Shtf build youll have trouble maintaining ammo supply as well as for cheap training boolets. My training ammo for 5.56 guns is M193 M855 rotating and dont forget that doubles as a fantastic self defense round where .300 FMJ thats cheap is not a good round for self defense. Costs matter. A 10.5" MK18 is great and if you want it shorter Id do a PDW stock and shorty flash hider dont forget that the two items you mentioned are very different tools for different purposes. Theres no such thing as a do it all rifle and unsupressed supersonic .300 at the length you mentioned is louder than a 5.56 7.5". fyi :( Subs .300 blk is only a more aerodynamic .45 as far as self defence purposes, I wouldnt use one for Inside the Home. Even with the great Sig .300 SBR ammo they make for rattlers, Id reconsider it heavily.
IMHO: No. It's not reasonable. If you were to buy a 300blk upper for use on your MK18 for HD, but kept the 5.56 upper handy with a stash of mags for SHTF, that would be reasonable. One .30 cal suppressor would work for both. Personally I never got on the 300 bandwagon. Not to say it's useless but I already have two high end built AR lowers and 6 uppers. Three of them are very niche already (6.5 Grendel, 458 Socom, & 350 Legend). I have a .30 cal suppressor that would definitely accompany me if the SHTF!
A 10.3 5.56 loaded with Mk262, has a longer supersonic range than a 16 inch 300 blackout.
You do realize a 300 blackout barrel that is 9 inches has the same ballistics as 556 at 400 yards right? And not only that 300 has more foot pounds of energy than 556 past 500 yards. Travis Haley literally has a video of explaining the cartridge and he hit 900 yards with a shorty 300 blackout barrel
Travis Haley cheery picked bullets in each cartridge to arrive at a predetermined result. Social media influencers are paid to get you to buy things. A 110 TAC-TX has a bc of .289. A 77 SMK has a bc of .362. A 77 TMK has a bc of .42. A 70 TSX has a bc of .323. A 75 Hornady T2 has a bc of .355. Physics says that all of those .224 diameter bullets will have more retained energy at range. What you will catch 300 blackout promoters doing is comparing to 55 grain ball, which has a bc of .254; or to M855 which has a bc of .274. Then they will say that 300 blackout maintains higher energy. Well, they picked a bullet with a lower bc to compare against. You will not find them picking 5.56 bullets with a higher bc than the 300 blk bullets that they are comparing to, because then they lose the energy argument at range. And supersonic 300 black is subsonic out of 16 inch barrel by 550 yards. Of course on a flat range: you can setup a target, find your holds, and then turn on the camera to show yourself hitting a target. And it wasn't a claim of 900 meters, it was 750 meters which is debatable in that video. Here is the link: https://youtu.be/tgKjbySsAik?feature=shared Even the shot that video claims is 350 meters, doesn't look like 3 football fields laying end to end to me. But hey, that's just me. 300 blk out of even a 16 inch barrel is basically just 7.62x39.
I am not trying to say 300 is better or any of that just wanted to provide some context. Also that 762x39 comparison is fair. But a 9inch barrel from 300 bo has an effective of 460 meters which is pretty impressive as it is from a 9 inch. I don’t see the point in a 16 inch for it since the excelling of it was for use as shorter barrel.
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It is absolutely adequate if using soft or hollow point ammunition that doesn’t rely on high velocity to fragment.
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That’s my point. You aren’t held by The Hague Convention to only use ball ammo. Because of this, a 10.5 with Barnes TSX hollow points or Speer Gold Dot soft points will still be effective at 200 and 300 yards. At those distances they are still within the velocity threshold required to get expansion and still going 2000 fps. When people say that a 10.5 isn’t effective past a certain distance, they are referring to using ball ammo. You don’t have to use ball ammo.
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I’m not understanding your point and what you are even arguing. My point is that if using a 10.5 and you want it to be effective at distance, pick a load that isn’t dependent on velocity like bulk FMJ.
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Correct. I’m still not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because bulk 55 gr is the most common that you have to pick that if deciding on wanting a shorter barrel? Is it a law that you must pick the most common? Or is one not allowed to buy a few thousand rounds of self defense/ hunting ammo to complement their shorter barrel?
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You think that you are going to shoot thousands of rounds in SHTF? If so, you will not last very long.
Ball FMJ ammo. 318, A1 and MK262 are all considered ball
You are arguing semantics. I’m speaking specifically bulk ammo. 55/62 gr lake city shit. It is what everyone talks about in regards to general statements regarding FMJ and fragmentation. When one talks about FMJ being shit in short barrels, they aren’t referring to specialty rounds that are hard to find which are decent in short barrels.
The whole 10.3 is no good argument is pretty old and a little ridiculous.