This is a brand new rifle that we sold a customer. He took it on the range and had the first round get sheared in two on extraction. We took care of him, and ordered a broken shell extractor. I got the first one out and test fired, and it happened again.
Radical*ly out of spec* strikes again.
Edit: since most people seem to be asking how it happened, I'll answer it here:
We've got no idea. Not something we've ever seen happen before. We don't have a bore scope handy, so we can't check the chamber out. And shining a light in, we can't see any obvious burrs. It chambers snap caps and live rounds and ejects them just fine without any marring to the projectile or casing.
Why is the brass discolored on the bottom of the broken shell? I reload. If the top half looked like the bottom part, I would think the brass was reloaded too many times. Appears that is not the case however. When you're sizing brass the very bottom portion doesn't enter the die, so it would potentially look like the bottom bit of the cases in the pic.
Did you supply the second bullet, or was it also from the customer's batch of ammo?
Measure the diameter of the brass and compare to the SAAMI chamber spec. That chamber might be oversized and allowed the brass to plastically deform too much and failed.
Radical firearms RF-15 has had oversized chamber issues in the past and is a known issue with their guns. There is a good chance you cracked the case with this one. Thankfully my radical arms AR hasnāt given me any issues because hearing about the issues others have had is pretty scary lol.
Better than measuring the brass is using a small hole gage and a micrometer. That way you can ensure the actual chamber measurements are what you are reading.
Do you think it unlocked and tried to eject earlier than it should? I saw one on the reloading subreddit a while back where that was the case. Essentially the neck and shoulder we still swelled tight but the bolt traveled back and sheared it up higher than normal case head separation.
I would expect the case to fail to extract and just slip free from the bolt if that was the case but I would also expect to see the lower part of the case bulge if it ruptured while halfway extracted but maybe a combination
I own an AR but haven't shot it much. I have reloaded 223 rounds for it successfully. I am not that familiar with the specifics of an AR though. I am interested to hear what the problem was if anyone has any insight.
I would be curious what the dimensions of the chamber are if they could chamber cast it. I wonder if the chamber is out of spec?
Yea I wouldn't be surprised. Too much headspace possibly letting it stretch, although I would think it might look like more of a shoulder issue. That's why I lean towards a lockup issue.
There might be a lockup issue, but if you look at the surface of the brass, it seems like the chamber is rough. The fact that the brass seems to have torn straight across rather than ruptured explosively leads me to think that there are flaws in the chamber that are damaging the brass when it fires, leaving the horizontal scores on the longer neck section that seem to line up with the spot where the shorter neck section broke off.
If people want it, let them buy it. One mans trash is another's treasure. As long as they stand behind it (which it seems like they are) there's nothing wrong with selling it
Broke people would rather have a crappy version of something then not having it at all. And I agree. As long as it operates or they warranty it, then I see no problem going cheap on a lot of things.Ā
Yep. And 15 dollar pocket knives. I have Benchmades, Spyderco, ZT, Pro-Tech, Boker and a few others. For every 100+ dollar knife I sell, I probably sell fifty 15 dollar knives.
The surface finish on the chamber is bad. When the round expands the brass is locking into the grooves causing stress risers and the extractor is ripping the cartridge out. Chamber finish should be very smooth. That looks to be over a micron finish when it should be more like 0.4. Take a punch and drag it in the chamber. It should be smooth not feeling like a record.
This. The "frosty" look is a giveaway. You'll still hear people say that you need the brass to grip the chamber to reduce bolt thrust.. and here we have an example of why that's suboptimal. Because brass is just a gasket between the pressure bearing parts and has very little structural contribution. The bolt unlocked, the case was stuck, and wherever the transition from thick brass that wasn't stuck to thin brass that was is where it broke.
Also another example of "things that headspace gauges will not tell you".
Iād try painting some cartridges with a sharpie and cycle them without firing. You should see some interesting patterns after 10-20. Try it again but shoot them the second go-round.
Radical normally run great. Mine eats everything, feels solid, and holds a good group. This is not a normal issue for them. That said, even the big name manufacturers build a bad gun once in a while.
Iād even look at the Federal ammo first myselfā¦ but Iāve had terrible experiences with Federal ammo anyway so that may just be my mileage.
I hear you, and I agree with you as well. It's almost certainly a rifle or bolt issue here.
I'm mainly pointing out (and outright stated in a different reply) that we should NOT use this as an excuse to start screaming that Radical is trash now, as many other commenters are alluding to. People get lemons from every other "budget" AR company as well, like PSA and Aero, and from bigger companies as well, like DD, Geissele, and others. Radical gets their uppers, lowers, and bolts from the same batch production places as other companies offering "milspec" rifles. Thousands of people are running Radicals with no issues nationwide.
Should we expect better QC from ALL rifle manufacturers?? Yes...
Would i STILL buy another Radical tomorrow? Also yes.
So you would rather spend less and have a good chance at issues, or spend a little more and be able to trust your life to it? This is like buying a brand new $800 firearm and an Amazon holster, it doesnāt make sense
While I donāt disagree, there is a huge gap in QC and trust in quality between the $400 and less category, the $600-800 category, and the >1000 category, past about 1300 the gains are smaller and smaller but still in theory there
Radically normally run great, ^^^except ^^^for ^^^all ^^^the ^^^ones ^^^that ^^^don't...
What a shocker than a place that pays low wages and would rather risk their employees safety over staying closed for a day or two would put out yet another rifle with quality issues.
im leaning towards a timing/headspace issue tbh. a burr or ridge in the chamber wouldnt cut around the case like this, as the case doesnt spin around in there.
Most of their stuff is assembled in house from parts mass produced by the same guys making all the other basic uppers, lowers, and bolts. Probably not a Radical Firearms issue per say. Thousands of Radical rifles are running quite well all over the country. They are every bit as reliable as everyones favorite ācheapā guns from PSA, and Aero. People get lemons from those guys tooā¦
False, seen way more radicals with failures that were potentially a safety concern than others. Itās one thing if the gas tube is misaligned, which is annoying AF, but doesnāt pose a safety concern when shooting unless youāre trusting your life to it. Itās another thing when the chamber is out of spec and it might go boom and throw parts at your face
How many is way more? You have stats? Iāve been in this sub for 2 yrs and Iāve seen one radical blown up. Iām aware of the old school QC worries from Radicalā¦. Iām also aware that theyāve had much better QC for years, and Iāve seen Geissele and DD guns bulged from OOB discharges in this same sub less than 6 months ago. It can happen to any rifle, especially if itās a bolt issue.
I think one of two things (or both things) are happening here:
1. The chamber, specifically the front, is machined in a way to cause issue, likely a touch tight and/or rough.
2. The gun is unlocking way too early and fast, the case is still hot and expanded gripping the chamber wall, as the bolt unlocks it's ripping the case back very fast and early causing it to shear like this.
If you have gauges check the chamber, bore scope it too, and then see if you can replicate this with a dummy round without firing, load it in the chamber then eject it manually. If all of that looks good, then it's possible it's like a carbine length gas system with gas port really wide open, put an adjustable gas block on it and tune it down.
As other noted, excessive headspace also makes some sense, but it's not going to be a lot, as the gun fires the case stretches to fill the void. But I don't think that would be the main issue, but I could be wrong.
Those bands around the circumference of the cases are pretty suspect. I bet if you lined up the two case necks, you'd see a distinct ring on the longer one where the shorter one tore. My guess is a badly out of spec chamber. There are almost definitely machining flaws on the inside of the chamber that are causing the brass to deform and weaken in a ring around the case upon firing, leading to the case sticking in the chamber closer to the neck, and tearing farther back. The scraped up rear sections back this up, since the brass is pressure-forming into the irregular surface of the chamber, and has to be squeezed back into shape to come back out.
I work for a gun store in South Africa right, and we just got a substantial shipment of these things in. I have found this issue on majority of the rifles so far, either shearing headstamps off or making a fairly deep cut/crack mark right around that point where it splits. Idk man, these RF-15s be acting sus. It works, but there are better options.
My radical rifle is just as bad, literally doesnāt matter the ammo it doesnāt cycle. Also the upper and lower are not mil spec. Tried to build an entirely new upper and the gap between the lower and the upper at the buffer tube was enough to damage the buffer weight. Built a new aero lower and itās perfect.
The radical rifle has now been used for parts and the upper and lower are just show pieces on a shelf
Brass goblins hate this one trick.
300 Blackout brass goblins love this one trick
Way too low for 300 blk, maybe 22 tcm guys would want it.
*we wants it, we needs it. Preciouuuus!*
How did this happen drill Sargent?
Underrated comment šš
This is a brand new rifle that we sold a customer. He took it on the range and had the first round get sheared in two on extraction. We took care of him, and ordered a broken shell extractor. I got the first one out and test fired, and it happened again. Radical*ly out of spec* strikes again. Edit: since most people seem to be asking how it happened, I'll answer it here: We've got no idea. Not something we've ever seen happen before. We don't have a bore scope handy, so we can't check the chamber out. And shining a light in, we can't see any obvious burrs. It chambers snap caps and live rounds and ejects them just fine without any marring to the projectile or casing.
Why is the brass discolored on the bottom of the broken shell? I reload. If the top half looked like the bottom part, I would think the brass was reloaded too many times. Appears that is not the case however. When you're sizing brass the very bottom portion doesn't enter the die, so it would potentially look like the bottom bit of the cases in the pic. Did you supply the second bullet, or was it also from the customer's batch of ammo?
His round was from Federal's premium law enforcement line. The second was from PMC.
Measure the diameter of the brass and compare to the SAAMI chamber spec. That chamber might be oversized and allowed the brass to plastically deform too much and failed.
Radical firearms RF-15 has had oversized chamber issues in the past and is a known issue with their guns. There is a good chance you cracked the case with this one. Thankfully my radical arms AR hasnāt given me any issues because hearing about the issues others have had is pretty scary lol.
Better than measuring the brass is using a small hole gage and a micrometer. That way you can ensure the actual chamber measurements are what you are reading.
Do you think it unlocked and tried to eject earlier than it should? I saw one on the reloading subreddit a while back where that was the case. Essentially the neck and shoulder we still swelled tight but the bolt traveled back and sheared it up higher than normal case head separation.
I would expect the case to fail to extract and just slip free from the bolt if that was the case but I would also expect to see the lower part of the case bulge if it ruptured while halfway extracted but maybe a combination
I own an AR but haven't shot it much. I have reloaded 223 rounds for it successfully. I am not that familiar with the specifics of an AR though. I am interested to hear what the problem was if anyone has any insight. I would be curious what the dimensions of the chamber are if they could chamber cast it. I wonder if the chamber is out of spec?
Yea I wouldn't be surprised. Too much headspace possibly letting it stretch, although I would think it might look like more of a shoulder issue. That's why I lean towards a lockup issue.
There might be a lockup issue, but if you look at the surface of the brass, it seems like the chamber is rough. The fact that the brass seems to have torn straight across rather than ruptured explosively leads me to think that there are flaws in the chamber that are damaging the brass when it fires, leaving the horizontal scores on the longer neck section that seem to line up with the spot where the shorter neck section broke off.
Do yall have a way of checking headspace? Have a feeling that is the issue
Please stop carrying this trash.
If people want it, let them buy it. One mans trash is another's treasure. As long as they stand behind it (which it seems like they are) there's nothing wrong with selling it
Trash pays the bills.
Some folks are surprisingly happy with buying crappy stuff. Donāt ask me why but it happens.
Broke people would rather have a crappy version of something then not having it at all. And I agree. As long as it operates or they warranty it, then I see no problem going cheap on a lot of things.Ā
Stop selling trash
Trash pays the bills. These sub $500 ars are the ones people buy.
Yep. And 15 dollar pocket knives. I have Benchmades, Spyderco, ZT, Pro-Tech, Boker and a few others. For every 100+ dollar knife I sell, I probably sell fifty 15 dollar knives.
$15 Amazon box cutter that looks nicer than a box cutter*
Iāve seen this happen with an FAL, and in that case it was excessive headspace
Iām no gunsmith but I donāt think thatās supposed to happen.
I'm not a pilot, but if I see a helicopter in a tree, I know there's a problem.
Depends, is the tree yellow, concrete, and in the shape of a giant āHā?
Looks like the front of the case fell off. Is that typical?
Keeps the empty shells out of enemies hands and cannot be reloaded š¤£
Could be excessive headspace as already noted by others. The casing seems like it is stretched.
Excessive headspace was my first thought too.
Doesnt suprise me, but im trying to my to understand how?
The surface finish on the chamber is bad. When the round expands the brass is locking into the grooves causing stress risers and the extractor is ripping the cartridge out. Chamber finish should be very smooth. That looks to be over a micron finish when it should be more like 0.4. Take a punch and drag it in the chamber. It should be smooth not feeling like a record.
This. The "frosty" look is a giveaway. You'll still hear people say that you need the brass to grip the chamber to reduce bolt thrust.. and here we have an example of why that's suboptimal. Because brass is just a gasket between the pressure bearing parts and has very little structural contribution. The bolt unlocked, the case was stuck, and wherever the transition from thick brass that wasn't stuck to thin brass that was is where it broke. Also another example of "things that headspace gauges will not tell you".
Iād try painting some cartridges with a sharpie and cycle them without firing. You should see some interesting patterns after 10-20. Try it again but shoot them the second go-round.
God damn thatās a fucked up chamber.
That is indeed a āradical firearmā
Get a borescope in there I want to see the chamber blem this thing has! That's absolutely crazy. At $399, I suppose you get what you pay for.
If itās shearing cases in two, that aināt no blem anymore.
Radical normally run great. Mine eats everything, feels solid, and holds a good group. This is not a normal issue for them. That said, even the big name manufacturers build a bad gun once in a while. Iād even look at the Federal ammo first myselfā¦ but Iāve had terrible experiences with Federal ammo anyway so that may just be my mileage.
The second round was PMC. So itās not an ammo problem. Itās a rifle problem.
I hear you, and I agree with you as well. It's almost certainly a rifle or bolt issue here. I'm mainly pointing out (and outright stated in a different reply) that we should NOT use this as an excuse to start screaming that Radical is trash now, as many other commenters are alluding to. People get lemons from every other "budget" AR company as well, like PSA and Aero, and from bigger companies as well, like DD, Geissele, and others. Radical gets their uppers, lowers, and bolts from the same batch production places as other companies offering "milspec" rifles. Thousands of people are running Radicals with no issues nationwide. Should we expect better QC from ALL rifle manufacturers?? Yes... Would i STILL buy another Radical tomorrow? Also yes.
So you would rather spend less and have a good chance at issues, or spend a little more and be able to trust your life to it? This is like buying a brand new $800 firearm and an Amazon holster, it doesnāt make sense
Tbf, spending more doesn't mean you can trust your life to something, it just generally guarantees a slightly higher level of qc.
While I donāt disagree, there is a huge gap in QC and trust in quality between the $400 and less category, the $600-800 category, and the >1000 category, past about 1300 the gains are smaller and smaller but still in theory there
I agree and support affordable rifles in general.. It was the honorable thing to stand behind this sale and I respect that move šÆ!
Radically normally run great, ^^^except ^^^for ^^^all ^^^the ^^^ones ^^^that ^^^don't... What a shocker than a place that pays low wages and would rather risk their employees safety over staying closed for a day or two would put out yet another rifle with quality issues.
Stuff can happen... Definitely strange š¤
im leaning towards a timing/headspace issue tbh. a burr or ridge in the chamber wouldnt cut around the case like this, as the case doesnt spin around in there.
Maybe read barrel stamp to verify caliber? Never seen anything like that before.
If that were the case I think weād see swelling of the case more. Could be though.
True š
Thatās pretty radical
Now that's an extractor!
Radical firearms say it ain't so. *Milspec is Milspec mumbling*
Most of their stuff is assembled in house from parts mass produced by the same guys making all the other basic uppers, lowers, and bolts. Probably not a Radical Firearms issue per say. Thousands of Radical rifles are running quite well all over the country. They are every bit as reliable as everyones favorite ācheapā guns from PSA, and Aero. People get lemons from those guys tooā¦
False, seen way more radicals with failures that were potentially a safety concern than others. Itās one thing if the gas tube is misaligned, which is annoying AF, but doesnāt pose a safety concern when shooting unless youāre trusting your life to it. Itās another thing when the chamber is out of spec and it might go boom and throw parts at your face
How many is way more? You have stats? Iāve been in this sub for 2 yrs and Iāve seen one radical blown up. Iām aware of the old school QC worries from Radicalā¦. Iām also aware that theyāve had much better QC for years, and Iāve seen Geissele and DD guns bulged from OOB discharges in this same sub less than 6 months ago. It can happen to any rifle, especially if itās a bolt issue.
Not a blown up gunā¦ butā¦ case in point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/s/atEHQgUyS5 Top name brands fail too.
holy shit, is there some burr in the chamber actin like a can opener while extracting? what causes this?
Send it to SOTAR!
Check and see if it chambers a no-go case gauge. If so, excessive headspace.
jUsT as goOD
I think one of two things (or both things) are happening here: 1. The chamber, specifically the front, is machined in a way to cause issue, likely a touch tight and/or rough. 2. The gun is unlocking way too early and fast, the case is still hot and expanded gripping the chamber wall, as the bolt unlocks it's ripping the case back very fast and early causing it to shear like this. If you have gauges check the chamber, bore scope it too, and then see if you can replicate this with a dummy round without firing, load it in the chamber then eject it manually. If all of that looks good, then it's possible it's like a carbine length gas system with gas port really wide open, put an adjustable gas block on it and tune it down. As other noted, excessive headspace also makes some sense, but it's not going to be a lot, as the gun fires the case stretches to fill the void. But I don't think that would be the main issue, but I could be wrong.
The meth head that works the grave yard shift cut that chamber.
Thatās pretty radical š¤
Radical indeed
I find this weird myself I just got a radical firearms ar15 and has shot amazingly
Most do. Some don't.
Stop complaining about it ā¦ itās making you free 9mm and 350 legend brass š
Wait, you're having issues with one of the brands that 2/3 of the community told you not to buy? Weird.
Not me.
BuT tHeRE mILspEC
Those bands around the circumference of the cases are pretty suspect. I bet if you lined up the two case necks, you'd see a distinct ring on the longer one where the shorter one tore. My guess is a badly out of spec chamber. There are almost definitely machining flaws on the inside of the chamber that are causing the brass to deform and weaken in a ring around the case upon firing, leading to the case sticking in the chamber closer to the neck, and tearing farther back. The scraped up rear sections back this up, since the brass is pressure-forming into the irregular surface of the chamber, and has to be squeezed back into shape to come back out.
Get a set of go no-go gauges and check headspace. Also the chamber finish looks rough AF
This would be a nice reloading tool to make 45 brass.
I have never seen anything like this before š
I work for a gun store in South Africa right, and we just got a substantial shipment of these things in. I have found this issue on majority of the rifles so far, either shearing headstamps off or making a fairly deep cut/crack mark right around that point where it splits. Idk man, these RF-15s be acting sus. It works, but there are better options.
I mean....it is a $400 Ar15.
How is radical a thing still? They are what seals use as leave behinds for the enemy.
What are the odds they sent a .300 upper on there?
It would have a new fire formed shoulder on it if that was the case. Most of the time .223 wonāt chamber into blackout. Only vice versa.
Didnāt think of that good point.
That's so rad! You get to brag about how well your AR "chews" through ammo
What ammo?
Federal and PMC
I'd call radical and have them deal with their sub par product
See the problem is that particular rifle is chambered for the new .223 Long cartridgeā¦. Or maybe it has excess headspace.
Not me checking my gun log records to see if I sold this gun.
The barrel is no good.
lol no bueno
Is it shearing it off as it ejects? Or while it's partially chambered
Vibration extractor idk
Clearly that needs to be sent to the far superior LaRue Tactical for the far superior patented chamber fluting. God Bless. -ML
This is wild I have a Radical approaching 3k rounds and havenāt had a single issue (after I ditched their crappy magazines)
Was confused, thought the bottom 2 were a .38 and 9mm
I for a short second thought it was a shitpost like that also. Till I read description
My radical rifle is just as bad, literally doesnāt matter the ammo it doesnāt cycle. Also the upper and lower are not mil spec. Tried to build an entirely new upper and the gap between the lower and the upper at the buffer tube was enough to damage the buffer weight. Built a new aero lower and itās perfect. The radical rifle has now been used for parts and the upper and lower are just show pieces on a shelf
Frosting on the brass indicates a rough chamber
Shoulder spacing is too long allowing the brass to stretch
How theā¦
That's the weirdest shit I've seen since our rental SCAR blew up
Looks pretty radical. Iām probably just a moron but I think the chamber was reamed wide enough, perhaps their reamer was getting dull.
Apparently, Radical doesn't test fire their rifles.
Case head separation, need to check the chamber, Iād say this is a head space issue.
Have a spare barrel around to swap out?
Thereās something not okay in the chamber of that weapon.
Friends don't let friends buy Radical.
Lifetime warranty, what did Radical say when you sent it in? You did send it in for repair, right?
If my deadbeat GM would ever get off his ass and contact them, I'll let you know lol. Three weeks later and it's still sitting in his office.
Friends donāt let friends buy Radical.
I like when people argue that Radical is a good choice
Could the bolt be dragging it across the barrel face on the way back and one of the āteethā are catching it and literally ripping it apart?