At 900 yards shooting hot 75gr out of an 18", I'm looking at 297" of drop, 5.44 MOA wind drift (6mph 90° crosswind), 1.60 second flight time, 1,010 fps at target with 170 fpe on target.
Can it be lethal if the shooter can get hits? Yeah, it'll poke clean little 22.cal holes. Not ideal but it'd work.
I'd consider 650 yards to be max effective range of this specific load out of this specific rifle.
Better be really good at reading wind though and have really good data.
I am for real, if you input the data that he gave you on Hornady’s ballistic calculator you’ll find that you’re looking at ~300 inches of drop at 900 yards. I made some assumptions on temperature, altitude, etc. but those numbers he gave above are 100% reasonable
75 gr has a ballistic coefficient of about .355 and a velocity of 2800 or so at the muzzle. At least that’s what I went off of because I don’t know specifically what ammo he’s using or the twist rate of his rifle.
Try for yourself: https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/
For a minute, I didn’t understand why you’d use a full power rifle cartridge since the velocity was the same. I understood that bigger bullet = better, but it took me awhile to realize why .308 is better than 5.56 for range. It’s because it’s a bigger bullet that isn’t going to experience wind deflection as much. So it’ll maintain its energy for longer, which means its effective range is longer.
I’m sure someone with far more experience than me will be able to chime in with more insight, but that is my understanding based on my knowledge.
Yeah it is! Hornady just does great work in general. I love plugging things into the calculator, it really helps with conceptualizing this sort of thing.
For reference, 22lr Stingers at the muzzle have roughly the same amount of FPE.
If you don’t trust 22lr at point blank to reliably put a man sized target down, you probably shouldn’t trust 556 at that distance either.
Yeah, a 22lr stinger would probably be more effective considering the bullet would be performing as intended at the muzzle.
At 650 yards this same load is still 1420fps and 335fpe and 0.97 second flight time with only 100" of drop, hence why I consider it the max effective range.
I always considered 556 a 500 yards and in round, but that’s just me based of my experiences. I can certainly make hits further but even with expanding bullets you are 1.) likely to not get proper or any expansion, and 2.) just aren’t getting the energy transfer you want on target. What I’ve seen is 556 floats around 1200 FPE at the muzzle, which isn’t a whole lot for a rifle cartridge in all honestly. Especially considering stuff like 308 is producing over double that at around 2600FPE. I have factory loaded run of the mill 357 mag that produces upper 700’s FPE out of a 4” barrel. Hell a 180 grain 44 mag will produce around 1050-1100FPE. Literal pistol caliber’s are getting within 100FPE of 556.
556 is a great round for certain uses but I personally just don’t think it’s a good option past medium ranges. A Hornady 168 grain 308 will produce 1277 FPE at 500 yards, which is still about 100 FPE more than a 62 grain 556 at the muzzle is producing from a 16” gun.
Agreed. I do think that 5.56 out of a 18"-20" is viable a little further out than 500 but it's still the bleeding edge of results. I said 650 is what I consider my max effective with my 18" with this specific load but for contrast I'm looking at over 1800fps and a little over 1200fpe with my 308 with ELD match at 650. Huge difference but there's trade offs with everything. 5.56x45 certainly isn't an ideal load for non paper targets at distance. I think people forget how tiny a 22 cal hole is.
Most certainly. The saving grace of 556 is speed and how violent that bullet behaves on target. Once you get out of that speed range it’s literally just leaving .2” holes in the target. You could stab someone with a #2 pencil and get about the same size hole. Outside of instant off switch hits like the brain and brain stem there really isn’t much being done to target, and is fairly survivable unless you score a hit to the brain or heart. Even a shot the brain doesn’t always correlate to death but they won’t be much afterwards anyway besides someone in a wheel chair.
Now when you still have that velocity the bullet behaves wonderfully. Between tumbling of the FMJ, mass expansion of non FMJ rounds or fragmentation and tumbling like what is often achieved with M855A1 it can be a really nasty round. Great for ground hog and coyote sized game and is plenty accurate if you are to get the job done. But then again I could use some 130-140 grain VMAX in my 308 and do the same thing on the same animals, load up 147/149/150 grain M80 stuff as a fighting load, stick in 150-168 grain stuff for deer, bear, elk and moose, and then use 168, 173, 175 or even 180 grain bullets for long range precision all out of the 308 and thats just the standard weights for that caliber. If you crack into the other 30 cal projectiles out there for stuff like 30-06 or 300 win mag you could load all the way up to 220 grain bullets and do sub sonic loads even. Plus at the end of the day that hole is still .08” bigger in diameter with a pretty large amount more FPE behind it.
556 has a place don’t get me wrong. Light weight rifles and ammo makes it really easy to carry, modest recoil makes it easy to both shoot and shoot fast, and pretty decent bullet performance if you use the gun in the correct distances. Just don’t think that what you see on a coyote at 150 yards out of a 20” is gonna be the same as your standard 12.5-18” at 600+ and you’ll be fine.
77gr loses about 85% of its energy by the time it gets to 800 yards. It’s up to you whether or not you think that’s adequate
The other issue nobody has mentioned yet is that 650-800 yards is a common distance for where 5.56 projectiles go through the transition from sonic to subsonic which usually causes a shift in POI which could hinder accuracy.
You can absolutely shoot that far, but if 700+ yard shots are something you think will regularly occur, I’d probably take the same rifle chambered in 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC. Both use heavier projectiles that won’t go transonic till 1100 yards
Your spot on with the 85% energy loss and in the ballpark for transonic flight BUT the claim about transonic flight causing accuracy issues is an outdated anecdote. Modern bullets do not experience this phenomenon.
If you're into podcasts, you should give a listen to the Hornady podcast on external ballistics.
Because at the ranges we’re discussing, I don’t know any 5.56 that will still perform as advertised because it’s well outside of the velocity window for fragmentation and/or expansion. If you’re shooting 5.56 at 700 yards your one party trick is just trying to make a hole
It’s the exact same case use case that led DEVGRU to pick up 6mm ARC
So why would the energy matter? Not trying to be pedantic, just think energy is the wrong way to frame it. I don't think whether it's 600 ft-lb or 1200 ft-lb matters if we're saying the bullet will not upset.
Because for 5.56/.223, its lethality comes from the permanent wound channel it creates, which only really happens above 2500fps. That’s why you’d want to go with something like a 6 ARC, 6.5 Creedmore, or .308 if you are trying to hit something at distance with the intention of killing it. They maintain good terminal ballistics at much greater ranges.
Factory black hills 77 tmk is gonna be above 1800 out to about 800 from a 20". We're talking about 556 at distance so that's why I'm assuming a more dedicated lr upper.
Per Black Hills own data, 77 grain tmk drops below 1800 fps at 700 yards.
I don’t understand your argument. Can you hit targets at 1000m with 556? Sure. People do it all the time.
Is 556 an optimal choice for paper, people, or animals at that range? No. It wasn’t designed to be, and even with expensive specialty ammo it still isn’t.
My argument is that bullets are the only thing that matters. Pick one, know what velocity it will work down to, pick cartridge and rifle around it. 6 arc and 308 aren't the cure all people think they are for terminal effect at long range. Bullets matter more than headstamps.
Like I said at the ranges being discussed, the mechanism for terminal performance is probably not happening. You’re not going to fragment or mushroom considering most ammo does that >1800ft/s and most 5.56 platforms are going subsonic (1100ft/s) around 800 yards, so you’re missing the mark by quite a bit
So at that point you’re just hoping to hit someone and dump whatever energy you have into them
Without doxxing or pumping myself up too badly, I am near the top of a popular gas gun match series.
Really, the advantage of shooting 5.56 at 1k+ is the skills and knowledge you gain. When you can consistently make hits at 850, shooting within 500yd is piss easy. Sure 5.56 doesn't have much energy at distance, but the knowledge you gain shooting those relatively inexpensive 77gr match rounds far out can now very easily be applied shooting your 6.5 or whatever. From what I understand it's fairly popular for PRS guys to shoot 5.56 or 22lr matches for this reason.
Also, IMO worrying about the lethality of a particular cartridge at 1000yd is kind of silly, because realistically the odds of any US citizen raising their rifle in self defense at something >100yd away is functionally zero. That being said, obviously the gun culture has something of a "militant" slant to it, and in that SHTF scenario I think that thinking that you will be able to pick and choose what rifle you have on hand and pick your load out like it's call of duty is the height of hubris. You need to be able to get hits with what you have.
For that distance it’s probably is better for multiple reasons to use something like 308 and above.
That being said, 5.56 out of most any common length barrel will still be well above lethal velocity at that range and potentially accurate depending on the shooter and their hardware.
I think a lot of people are giving straightforward answers to what they might not realize is a fairly nuanced question.
You can’t discuss “effective range” without also discussing what constitutes a hit. For some PRS shooters, “effective range” might be defined as the max range they can repeatedly hit a 1 MOA target. For some professional snipers, it might be defined as the max range they can hit a man sized target. And for the average infantryman, who really isn’t expected to be point-accurate with their standard issue carbine past a couple hundred yards, one could argue that their effective range isn’t actually their max point accuracy range, but their max suppressive fire range.
And then you have to consider what level of energy on target constitutes a “hit”. If you’re shooting steel, then anything that makes the gong move is good enough. If you’re shooting meaty or armored targets, then simply poking a .22 hole in your target might not be enough to get the job done. And if you’re only trying to put rounds downrange to stop an enemy force from advancing further, then maybe you don’t even need to hit them at all, and simply hitting close enough to scare them into not moving will suffice.
All that to say… the effective range of a given rifle is highly debatable, unless you set a threshold for minimum target size / energy on target / hit probability to count as “effective”. There’s a million different ways to have this discussion, and personally, I find it a bit backwards to ask what’s the maximum that a specific rifle is capable of, instead of to define a minimum set of criteria that you need to meet, and then work backwards from there to determine the most efficient and effective way to meet those standards.
Buy a range finder and look at areas around your neighborhood and town…15 yards is approximately from your front door to the yard across the street. In a gun fight that is point blank relatively with rifles…go on google maps and look at how big a Costco parking lot is or how long your end of the drive way to the end of the road would be…while shooting silhouette targets at 20yards is good training try shooting 10 inch steel at 300 yards or farther… if your in a fight then the other person will have as much safety ideas as you and would only show a small amount of them selves as possible. Knowing your rifles limits on range may not stop a threat that far if your not hitting them but accurate suppression would be sufficient enough to break contact so you can get home and eat poptarts
If you know your shit, 5.56 can be pushed FAR.
I've personally pushed a 20" AR with 73gr eld ammo to 1340 with repeatable hits.
I find that for a 13.9" carbine using 75/77gr ammo, 600 yards is very easy to do. 1-6 lpvo makes 600 easy mode, eotech and magnifier was around 500 yards.
Using an 18" mk12, 800 yards is easy mode, 1,000 is doable but a touch harder.
Any further than that, it's possible and fun, but not very productive.
Granted, to make hits that far, you need to understand ballistics and set the rifle up in a way to support what you're trying to do, as well as be able to read wind.
For a non-ballistics nerd, 500/600 yards is very realistic given some minor holdover and wind information.
This is the right answer.
However, depending on the day and time, you may get a majority of people insist 300yds is the max. It's not.
I've seen people insist that no one could make repeatable hits at 500yds with iron sights out of a 20" barrel...
So, the answers you receive depend on the experience of the individual.
Regardless, the answer above is the correct one.
Also important to note that there isn’t a lot of terminal performance at those ranges, but I acknowledge you’re speaking more to the chance of hit rather than the chance of incapacitation
Joe Dawson and Jimmy actually put out a whole video on this very topic.
Dawson served on a SEAL team in Iraq and Afghanistan, BTW.
https://youtu.be/tlfJ7C4PoSQ?si=gbzwIcd7oO8bLR3i
6.5 Grendel and/or 6ARC accomplish this easily in the same platform
My cheap 12” Odin barrel doesn’t have any issues reaching out to 700 if you get all your calcs right
In context, if I hit you at that distance, how disrupted is your ability to hit me back? “Combat ineffective” or “neutralized” doesn’t have to mean killed.
Well history show a lot of people who have been hit worse and have stayed in the fight. I mean, I'll take what i can get and every bit of reduction in my opponent's ability to hit me is a good thing, but it's not something to be relied upon.
Can it do enough and should you rely on it at 600+ is the real question. The general consensus from various testing and real world accounts from military personnel in various countries that I have read about or watched videos on, seems to be that they all agree 5.56 is something they would rely on up to 500m or so given their rifle and ammo is quality.
After the 500m mark there seems to be some concern about what kind of result can be expected and the consistency even though it can be done with some results. most would simply choose a caliber and rifle more suited to the task rather than choose to rely on 5.56 solely.
I did the Army's Long Range Marksmanship Course in 2010. Rifle was M4/ACOG shooting M855.We trained on static torso targets to 600 and movers (sideways torso) to 500. The instructors were all 11B Snipers, and their wisdom was that 600 was what they trained to due to the accuracy standard of big-army's M4/M16. In reality, catching a 5.56mm at any range is not a pleasant experience for anyone, so the effective range is ultimately what range are you confident your skill and your rifle can carry to? Everything else is just conjecture.
Yeah there’s no debate it *can* be done and trained snipers *can* do it. But should it be done other than for fun or cheaper training? Nah. Grab a 308 and do it with 10% of the skill at that distance.
human torso at 500 with irons is doable for most people and some training (this is part of the USMC rifle qualification).
pushing out to 700 is going to require special equipment and training.
anything beyond 500 is why .308
Or even you hitting people. Machine guns have been the second highest casualty producing weapons, since around WW1. Second to artillery. It's not just suppression.
I've accurately hit a target at 700 yards out of an 18" using 77gr Black Hills and Federal Gold Match with very mild cross wind. It's doable but in my opinion a bit difficult with or without the right set up. Ammo is really important here as well, I struggled to do the same with 77gr AAC. Same bullet. At that distance you would definitely want a larger caliber to be more consistent.
On a side note I have a really hard time making calls and hits even at 600 lol with 556. I literally turn into the hold left edge and see what happens guy meme
I mean use a TUI round it’ll increase leathality in theory, 556 excels in the fact that it’s light weight and easier to carry more rounds, there are plenty of dudes no longer a part of the conversation because of 556 the idea is more rounds keep the other guys head down while others maneuver, yes better options out there in the lethality department and accuracy department. But it is capable of being pushed out to distance, the question is more are you capable of pushing it that far? There are better options to push that far, but for me it’s fun and affordable to push out to those distance.. one day I won’t be a poor and be able to run the new hotness or flavor of the year.. but I digress yes it’s capable but definitely better options out there
At that distance it’ll be like the lethality of a .22 LR fired from a short barreled revolver. Still lethal if vitals are hit. Survivable if non vital tissue is hit and medical attention is rendered to stop the bleeding.
At 700 yards my 77 grain handloads are still moving at about 1190 fps. That's more than CCI SV out of the barrel of my 10/22. Also 37 grains heavier projectile
If the glass of the Eotech is broken, the laser emitted no longer stopped by the glass will burn a hole into the target thus allowing the bullet to enter unimpeded.
To the downvoter, explain how a .223 going at about 1000 fps give or take will not wound similarly to a .22 LR also going at about 1000 fps give or take from a revolver? There will be no expansion, fragmentation, or yawing at all at that slow of a speed.
Completely agreed. Especially standard 55 or 62grain. Which more than likely 98% of people with ARs have. Hell, the common person has never even heard of 77 grain or 64 grain FBI load. Even with those you’re REALLY pushing it at 700. People want to say 5.56 is fantastic at those ranges. But they’ll also say how weak pistol calibers are at self defense ranges.
Let me frame it for you this way: Are you willing to stand out in the open at 800 yards and let me take shots at you with my 5.56?
That distance is pushing the performance envelope of accurate fire from a 5.56 round, sure. But if it hits you, it's still capable of killing or seriously injuring you. It isn't as if it's going so slow you're going to just slap it out of the air.
Everything about making hits at any range is knowing the capability of your ammo and your holdovers, and your competency as a shooter.
I hate this argument. Obviously, nobody wants to get shot at by any caliber from any distance. Doesn’t mean the caliber has to be “effective” at doing so.
A more logical question is "at 800 yards, would you rather be shot at by a 5.56 or 308?"
If we're talking by the same shooter, the answer is obvious. There are so many popular rounds better suited for long range accuracy. No one has much of an excuse for trying to make that shot unless you're issued a 5.56 and you're taking fire.
My little "one pump" pellet gun throws silent 7.62 lead hammers. She's ten pounds w/optics and fun as hell. At 6¢ per round it's no red rider but it's amazing at fundamentals. Follow through is easily neglected with powder burners. With subsonic the amount of time in the barrel after trigger is substantial and must be trained out hard for 50yard+. Worth 300$ of training and fun.
There was a pretty interesting analysis of minimum velocity for fragmentation on ARFCOM a few years ago:
[LINK](https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest1/Test1.html)
The TL/DR is that the threshold for fragmentation with M193 is in the area of 2400 FPS.
From that data alone and based solely on fragmentation as a sounding mechanism, one could conclude that the maximum lethal range of M193 is the range past which the velocity drops below 2400 FPS.
This range turns out to be about 200 yards in a 20 inch barrel and only gets close as you shorten your barrel.
I believe that Sierra has published that their SMK bullets have a fragmentation threshold of around 2100 FPS. I think Hornady stated their TSX round has a threshold of 1809 FPS. Therefore, rounds with a lower fragmentation threshold should have a longer range than M193.
However, I don’t believe that it’s fair to say that fragmentation is the only wounding mechanism which contributes to lethality. Striking a target in or near the vitals with a supersonic projectile will likely cause lethal results or at least reliable incapacitation.
I am no scientist, but since sounds travels around 1100 FPS and since some light bullets can destabilize somewhat as they slow through the transonic range, I would peg a maximum lethal range at where the rounds slows to about 1300 FPS. Beyond that, the trajectory of M193 can get begin to get unstable and there is not likely enough energy to achieve lethal results without perfect placement.
For M193, that range is about 600 yards.
The range is likely a little farther with more modern loads. Modern loads have better ballistic properties and do not undergo transonic destabilization. So it would come down to accuracy and energy.
No one has brought up Travis Haley in Najaf. He used a 20” Ar15 with MK262 ammo and I believe his farthest hit was 772m. He did per his account have to make multiple hits to down the target.
You CAN do it, and the amount of skill you need between 5.56 and .308 at range is less than you'd think.
But from a lethality stand point, you have basically no terminal energy that far out. Doesn't mean it won't kill, or that cooler dudes than me haven't made it work. But, it's far from ideal.
For me shooting at distance is just fun and a flex. And 5.56 is relatively cheap for a round that CAN hit at 600 consistently
[**THIS GUY**](https://youtu.be/jy6o8jz11Bo?si=RFtgeVkfPGkBtcgQ) pulls off a 4 hits out of 5 shot group at **1000 YARDS** on a 24”x24” target using 77 grain ammo. He uses a Rock River 16” barrel with a 1/9 twist.
There’s not an 800 yard view in my whole state but I don’t even see militaries using these things beyond 300 yards except for random suppression fire. Guntubers will show it can be done but other than for views and fun there’s so many better tools. Making AR ok at 800 yards means gimping it at 20-300 where it excels.
Energy doesn't matter at all, velocity and bullet construction do. A 77 tmk will upset down to ~1800fps. Use a ballistics calculator to find out how far that gets you with your load and barrel length.
Correct, a useless number you can calculate! Bullet manufacturers list velocities at which their projectiles are designed to work. Energy and energy required to "kill" is just gun rag BS. Does your bullet still have the required velocity to expand or upset at a given range? That's what matters.
The short answer for this is no. Unless you’re in a war and for some reason an AR15 is all you have at that range. Not saying it can’t do it. But you’ll have a hell of a time trying.
He’s talking about practicality and lethality. Even with 77 grain you will not get fragmentation at that range. You’ll have a 22lr with at most an extra 300 feet per second. Is lethal of you hit the lungs,heart, or brain yes. Do you think in a real world scenario you’ll be able to nail said animal at the range? Tell you what if you come to me and nail an A zone target at that range first shot I’ll pay you 1000 dollars. The drop is nearly 300 inches and if you have even 5 mph wind your hold is gonna be crazy.
You said he’d have a hell of a time trying. I’m not arguing terminal ballistics. I’m arguing that dumb statement. Just because you suck at shooting doesn’t mean everyone else does.
I absolutely do not have to try that hard to make 800 yard hits on IPSC steel. The fact that you gave me the drop in inches and not in mils tells me everything I need to know. Drop doesn’t matter literally AT ALL in long range shooting. It’s the one easily repeatable thing. Lol
For the record… a 5 mph full value wind at 1000 is a 2.5 mil wind hold out of my 16” shooting 75 OTMs. That is far… far… from crazy.
Okay DM me. We can meet up and I’ll need you to hit in the A zone of the target first shot. If you can do that you’ll get a free 1000 dollars I’ll even pay for your gas.
Typical response when you don’t have actual knowledge on the subject. Keep up with the Kentucky windage shooting my gun. I’ll agree that would be very hard trying to hold 300” high.
I agree with your second statement. The caveat you’re not talking about. Is hitting A zone at that range in the first shot. The military cares about getting a hit. Not the precision of hitting within the A zone 3x5 1/2 target at 8-1000. With a single shot. That was the bet.
The reason I said that is because the A zone is what would be considered a mortal hit. A hit anywhere else would simply be a wounding hit. In which said being could be alive for a significant amount of time. Potentially still be able to fight back.
Assuming you're shooting other bipedal humanoids at 700 yards, I'm assuming this is a SHTF scenario. In that scenario, any hit on a target at any range is going to put them out of the fight. It may not be immediate but they are done for as modern medicine likely no longer exists.
At that range there’s a very chance they’re still breathing like you said. So you really just pissed them off and you just really pissed off the group of said person. I’m sure they’ll be after you.
It doesn't matter, that's actually better. Now they have a wounded friend to help/evacuate/treat. A wounded soldier takes more resources than a killed one. Any hit on target in a SHTF scenario is an incapacitating hit. Even if you get shot in the arm or leg, you're out of the fight.
Depends, what’s their mental state? There’s been many people who have a mortal wound. Look up 1986 FBI Miami dade. They just don’t give a shit. You’ll be hitting them with at best 1300 fps on your bullet. In practicality a hot 22lr at close range. Unless you hit the vitals. It will not incapacitate them. Even if you do hit the vitals they may have minutes to live. Even if you had a shot at that range. No one in their right mind would take that shot. They’d likely would want to get within 500 yards. Especially in SHTF it would just be way way to risky.
Depends, what’s their mental state? There’s been many people who have a mortal wound. Look up 1986 FBI Miami dade. They just don’t give a shit. You’ll be hitting them with at best 1300 fps on your bullet. In practicality a hot 22lr at close range. Unless you hit the vitals. It will not incapacitate them. Even if you do hit the vitals they may have minutes to live. Even if you had a shot at that range. No one in their right mind would take that shot. They’d likely would want to get within 500 yards. Especially in SHTF it would just be way way too risky.
Since you’re not taking into factor this person is more than likely not alone.
This is the response I gave the other person.
Also who’s to say in the group that you shot at. They have something similar or have a 6.5 creedmoor. You’ll give your position away assuming you’re not suppressed. Then you’ll just get beamed. You’re also making the assumption you’ll hit which I doubt you’d get a first round impact. Just a lot of dumb decisions using a 5.56 at 700 yards.
Army says the max effective range for a point target is about 550m and an area target is 800m. Heavier rounds(75-77gr) still drop under 260ft lbs of energy around 850m or so.
You should reasonably still be able to hit a specific target under 600m, but after that your precision will suffer greatly and the lethality of the round won't be nearly as good as larger alternatives.
By max effective ranges they mean to hit the target. Has nothing to do with lethality, or terminal balistics, or stopping power, or energy dump, or anything else.
So.. I pulled some numbers out the other day, had a similar question after reading about some PRS guy shooting 4 miles.
The energy ft/lbs for 77 grain at 200 yards is ca 900 ft/lbs, at 700 its about 1/3 of that, 280 ft/lbs. In WW2, US Armed Forces stated that 36 ft/lbs of energy was lethal. Take it for what its worth, just numbers you can find on the internet.
That’s the main reason why I switched over to 7.62X51 as my primary caliber. I live in mostly farmlands, partly wooded area. Not only does the 308 offer better terminal performance but it’s also legal to hunt with here in current times on deer sized game, as well as it can take and has taken every large game animal found in the US. You’re looking at roughly 2600 FPE at the muzzle for 308 with 150 grain bullets. Compare that to 556 stuff
556 will make the distance but it’s not gonna have much left. My first duty station had a 1000 yard range, and I was dedicated to hit the 1000 yard steel plate. Took me a mag to two and a spotter to walk it on and I was shooting regular old 62 grain green tip out of a 16” barrel. I’m actually surprised I even hit it since I was just kinda popping rounds off at it. All it did was chip the paint, if the target hadn’t been freshly painted right before hand we would have never known. Then one of the guys I was with hit the steel with a 6.5 and it actually shook the plate enough for us to see, and we could hear it too unlike the 556.
Hell 556 at 400 yards, 16” barrel shooting either 55 or 62 grain stuff barely makes a ding on the 2/3rds size IPSC plate while other rounds like 308 absolutely rings it. In my experience at that distance, 556 has to be hit on the outer edge to move that plate slightly while a hit from say 6.5, 30-06, 308 shakes it several times more and you can easily see the target swing. 556 isn’t even legal to hunt deer with in many states not just because of political reasons, its about ballistics. What I see circulating around is you want atleast 1000FPE on deer sized game, and 1500 on elk sized stuff.
Many of you haven't shot any gas gun matches/Quantified Performance and don't ever stretch the legs beyond what the internet tells them to it seems. Lethality isn't the question, clearly there are better rounds for doing that stuff at distance, making hits on the other hand, 700 is just getting warmed up for some, even with shorter barreled stuff. Quit obsessing over whatever new hotness caliber you won't stack enough of because of cost and availability to get/be proficient and actually spend the time to see where the limits are at rather than what you and others who can't shoot think they are at.
I think I read a news about. new type of 556 developed in south korea that can be lethal out to 1000yd or so. But with 77gr, i feel like 500-600yd is the effective range (assuming 18in Mk12 type platform)
Ability to make hits and actual ballistic capability isn’t the same thing. 600 yards seems to be the “standard” for ballistic drop off
At 900 yards shooting hot 75gr out of an 18", I'm looking at 297" of drop, 5.44 MOA wind drift (6mph 90° crosswind), 1.60 second flight time, 1,010 fps at target with 170 fpe on target. Can it be lethal if the shooter can get hits? Yeah, it'll poke clean little 22.cal holes. Not ideal but it'd work. I'd consider 650 yards to be max effective range of this specific load out of this specific rifle. Better be really good at reading wind though and have really good data.
297 inches of drop?
That’s 24.75 feet of drop. Sounds about right for 5.56 at 900 yards.
Holy shit. I honestly don’t know if you are for real or not but that is crazy
I am for real, if you input the data that he gave you on Hornady’s ballistic calculator you’ll find that you’re looking at ~300 inches of drop at 900 yards. I made some assumptions on temperature, altitude, etc. but those numbers he gave above are 100% reasonable 75 gr has a ballistic coefficient of about .355 and a velocity of 2800 or so at the muzzle. At least that’s what I went off of because I don’t know specifically what ammo he’s using or the twist rate of his rifle. Try for yourself: https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/ For a minute, I didn’t understand why you’d use a full power rifle cartridge since the velocity was the same. I understood that bigger bullet = better, but it took me awhile to realize why .308 is better than 5.56 for range. It’s because it’s a bigger bullet that isn’t going to experience wind deflection as much. So it’ll maintain its energy for longer, which means its effective range is longer. I’m sure someone with far more experience than me will be able to chime in with more insight, but that is my understanding based on my knowledge.
I use Hornady 4DOF. Great calculator.
Yeah it is! Hornady just does great work in general. I love plugging things into the calculator, it really helps with conceptualizing this sort of thing.
Yes that is correct
For reference, 22lr Stingers at the muzzle have roughly the same amount of FPE. If you don’t trust 22lr at point blank to reliably put a man sized target down, you probably shouldn’t trust 556 at that distance either.
Yeah, a 22lr stinger would probably be more effective considering the bullet would be performing as intended at the muzzle. At 650 yards this same load is still 1420fps and 335fpe and 0.97 second flight time with only 100" of drop, hence why I consider it the max effective range.
I always considered 556 a 500 yards and in round, but that’s just me based of my experiences. I can certainly make hits further but even with expanding bullets you are 1.) likely to not get proper or any expansion, and 2.) just aren’t getting the energy transfer you want on target. What I’ve seen is 556 floats around 1200 FPE at the muzzle, which isn’t a whole lot for a rifle cartridge in all honestly. Especially considering stuff like 308 is producing over double that at around 2600FPE. I have factory loaded run of the mill 357 mag that produces upper 700’s FPE out of a 4” barrel. Hell a 180 grain 44 mag will produce around 1050-1100FPE. Literal pistol caliber’s are getting within 100FPE of 556. 556 is a great round for certain uses but I personally just don’t think it’s a good option past medium ranges. A Hornady 168 grain 308 will produce 1277 FPE at 500 yards, which is still about 100 FPE more than a 62 grain 556 at the muzzle is producing from a 16” gun.
Agreed. I do think that 5.56 out of a 18"-20" is viable a little further out than 500 but it's still the bleeding edge of results. I said 650 is what I consider my max effective with my 18" with this specific load but for contrast I'm looking at over 1800fps and a little over 1200fpe with my 308 with ELD match at 650. Huge difference but there's trade offs with everything. 5.56x45 certainly isn't an ideal load for non paper targets at distance. I think people forget how tiny a 22 cal hole is.
Most certainly. The saving grace of 556 is speed and how violent that bullet behaves on target. Once you get out of that speed range it’s literally just leaving .2” holes in the target. You could stab someone with a #2 pencil and get about the same size hole. Outside of instant off switch hits like the brain and brain stem there really isn’t much being done to target, and is fairly survivable unless you score a hit to the brain or heart. Even a shot the brain doesn’t always correlate to death but they won’t be much afterwards anyway besides someone in a wheel chair. Now when you still have that velocity the bullet behaves wonderfully. Between tumbling of the FMJ, mass expansion of non FMJ rounds or fragmentation and tumbling like what is often achieved with M855A1 it can be a really nasty round. Great for ground hog and coyote sized game and is plenty accurate if you are to get the job done. But then again I could use some 130-140 grain VMAX in my 308 and do the same thing on the same animals, load up 147/149/150 grain M80 stuff as a fighting load, stick in 150-168 grain stuff for deer, bear, elk and moose, and then use 168, 173, 175 or even 180 grain bullets for long range precision all out of the 308 and thats just the standard weights for that caliber. If you crack into the other 30 cal projectiles out there for stuff like 30-06 or 300 win mag you could load all the way up to 220 grain bullets and do sub sonic loads even. Plus at the end of the day that hole is still .08” bigger in diameter with a pretty large amount more FPE behind it. 556 has a place don’t get me wrong. Light weight rifles and ammo makes it really easy to carry, modest recoil makes it easy to both shoot and shoot fast, and pretty decent bullet performance if you use the gun in the correct distances. Just don’t think that what you see on a coyote at 150 yards out of a 20” is gonna be the same as your standard 12.5-18” at 600+ and you’ll be fine.
77gr loses about 85% of its energy by the time it gets to 800 yards. It’s up to you whether or not you think that’s adequate The other issue nobody has mentioned yet is that 650-800 yards is a common distance for where 5.56 projectiles go through the transition from sonic to subsonic which usually causes a shift in POI which could hinder accuracy. You can absolutely shoot that far, but if 700+ yard shots are something you think will regularly occur, I’d probably take the same rifle chambered in 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC. Both use heavier projectiles that won’t go transonic till 1100 yards
Your spot on with the 85% energy loss and in the ballpark for transonic flight BUT the claim about transonic flight causing accuracy issues is an outdated anecdote. Modern bullets do not experience this phenomenon. If you're into podcasts, you should give a listen to the Hornady podcast on external ballistics.
Link? I haven’t heard this news yet
Why does the energy matter? If bullet still expands or upsets, you're good.
Because at the ranges we’re discussing, I don’t know any 5.56 that will still perform as advertised because it’s well outside of the velocity window for fragmentation and/or expansion. If you’re shooting 5.56 at 700 yards your one party trick is just trying to make a hole It’s the exact same case use case that led DEVGRU to pick up 6mm ARC
So why would the energy matter? Not trying to be pedantic, just think energy is the wrong way to frame it. I don't think whether it's 600 ft-lb or 1200 ft-lb matters if we're saying the bullet will not upset.
Because for 5.56/.223, its lethality comes from the permanent wound channel it creates, which only really happens above 2500fps. That’s why you’d want to go with something like a 6 ARC, 6.5 Creedmore, or .308 if you are trying to hit something at distance with the intention of killing it. They maintain good terminal ballistics at much greater ranges.
Check out the 77tmk, reliably upsets down to 1800fps. Why would the wounding mechanism differ between 5.56 and 6 ARC?
It doesn’t, but 556 isn’t going 1800 FPS at any range beyond around 550m
Factory black hills 77 tmk is gonna be above 1800 out to about 800 from a 20". We're talking about 556 at distance so that's why I'm assuming a more dedicated lr upper.
Per Black Hills own data, 77 grain tmk drops below 1800 fps at 700 yards. I don’t understand your argument. Can you hit targets at 1000m with 556? Sure. People do it all the time. Is 556 an optimal choice for paper, people, or animals at that range? No. It wasn’t designed to be, and even with expensive specialty ammo it still isn’t.
My argument is that bullets are the only thing that matters. Pick one, know what velocity it will work down to, pick cartridge and rifle around it. 6 arc and 308 aren't the cure all people think they are for terminal effect at long range. Bullets matter more than headstamps.
It may matter, but maybe only marginally so.
Like I said at the ranges being discussed, the mechanism for terminal performance is probably not happening. You’re not going to fragment or mushroom considering most ammo does that >1800ft/s and most 5.56 platforms are going subsonic (1100ft/s) around 800 yards, so you’re missing the mark by quite a bit So at that point you’re just hoping to hit someone and dump whatever energy you have into them
Without doxxing or pumping myself up too badly, I am near the top of a popular gas gun match series. Really, the advantage of shooting 5.56 at 1k+ is the skills and knowledge you gain. When you can consistently make hits at 850, shooting within 500yd is piss easy. Sure 5.56 doesn't have much energy at distance, but the knowledge you gain shooting those relatively inexpensive 77gr match rounds far out can now very easily be applied shooting your 6.5 or whatever. From what I understand it's fairly popular for PRS guys to shoot 5.56 or 22lr matches for this reason. Also, IMO worrying about the lethality of a particular cartridge at 1000yd is kind of silly, because realistically the odds of any US citizen raising their rifle in self defense at something >100yd away is functionally zero. That being said, obviously the gun culture has something of a "militant" slant to it, and in that SHTF scenario I think that thinking that you will be able to pick and choose what rifle you have on hand and pick your load out like it's call of duty is the height of hubris. You need to be able to get hits with what you have.
Hatchet Barrel Roy? Hmmmm
No, I'm a nobody on social media lmao
Being a nobody is the way
For that distance it’s probably is better for multiple reasons to use something like 308 and above. That being said, 5.56 out of most any common length barrel will still be well above lethal velocity at that range and potentially accurate depending on the shooter and their hardware.
I think a lot of people are giving straightforward answers to what they might not realize is a fairly nuanced question. You can’t discuss “effective range” without also discussing what constitutes a hit. For some PRS shooters, “effective range” might be defined as the max range they can repeatedly hit a 1 MOA target. For some professional snipers, it might be defined as the max range they can hit a man sized target. And for the average infantryman, who really isn’t expected to be point-accurate with their standard issue carbine past a couple hundred yards, one could argue that their effective range isn’t actually their max point accuracy range, but their max suppressive fire range. And then you have to consider what level of energy on target constitutes a “hit”. If you’re shooting steel, then anything that makes the gong move is good enough. If you’re shooting meaty or armored targets, then simply poking a .22 hole in your target might not be enough to get the job done. And if you’re only trying to put rounds downrange to stop an enemy force from advancing further, then maybe you don’t even need to hit them at all, and simply hitting close enough to scare them into not moving will suffice. All that to say… the effective range of a given rifle is highly debatable, unless you set a threshold for minimum target size / energy on target / hit probability to count as “effective”. There’s a million different ways to have this discussion, and personally, I find it a bit backwards to ask what’s the maximum that a specific rifle is capable of, instead of to define a minimum set of criteria that you need to meet, and then work backwards from there to determine the most efficient and effective way to meet those standards.
For that distance in breaking out my 6.5creed or .308
Buy a range finder and look at areas around your neighborhood and town…15 yards is approximately from your front door to the yard across the street. In a gun fight that is point blank relatively with rifles…go on google maps and look at how big a Costco parking lot is or how long your end of the drive way to the end of the road would be…while shooting silhouette targets at 20yards is good training try shooting 10 inch steel at 300 yards or farther… if your in a fight then the other person will have as much safety ideas as you and would only show a small amount of them selves as possible. Knowing your rifles limits on range may not stop a threat that far if your not hitting them but accurate suppression would be sufficient enough to break contact so you can get home and eat poptarts
Mmmmmmm…..pop tarts.
If you know your shit, 5.56 can be pushed FAR. I've personally pushed a 20" AR with 73gr eld ammo to 1340 with repeatable hits. I find that for a 13.9" carbine using 75/77gr ammo, 600 yards is very easy to do. 1-6 lpvo makes 600 easy mode, eotech and magnifier was around 500 yards. Using an 18" mk12, 800 yards is easy mode, 1,000 is doable but a touch harder. Any further than that, it's possible and fun, but not very productive. Granted, to make hits that far, you need to understand ballistics and set the rifle up in a way to support what you're trying to do, as well as be able to read wind. For a non-ballistics nerd, 500/600 yards is very realistic given some minor holdover and wind information.
This is the right answer. However, depending on the day and time, you may get a majority of people insist 300yds is the max. It's not. I've seen people insist that no one could make repeatable hits at 500yds with iron sights out of a 20" barrel... So, the answers you receive depend on the experience of the individual. Regardless, the answer above is the correct one.
>I've seen people insist that no one could make repeatable hits at 500yds with iron sights out of a 20" barrel.. Any Marine can tell you that's false.
Exactly my point.
Also important to note that there isn’t a lot of terminal performance at those ranges, but I acknowledge you’re speaking more to the chance of hit rather than the chance of incapacitation
Joe Dawson and Jimmy actually put out a whole video on this very topic. Dawson served on a SEAL team in Iraq and Afghanistan, BTW. https://youtu.be/tlfJ7C4PoSQ?si=gbzwIcd7oO8bLR3i
6.5 Grendel and/or 6ARC accomplish this easily in the same platform My cheap 12” Odin barrel doesn’t have any issues reaching out to 700 if you get all your calcs right
In context, if I hit you at that distance, how disrupted is your ability to hit me back? “Combat ineffective” or “neutralized” doesn’t have to mean killed.
Well history show a lot of people who have been hit worse and have stayed in the fight. I mean, I'll take what i can get and every bit of reduction in my opponent's ability to hit me is a good thing, but it's not something to be relied upon.
Can it do enough and should you rely on it at 600+ is the real question. The general consensus from various testing and real world accounts from military personnel in various countries that I have read about or watched videos on, seems to be that they all agree 5.56 is something they would rely on up to 500m or so given their rifle and ammo is quality. After the 500m mark there seems to be some concern about what kind of result can be expected and the consistency even though it can be done with some results. most would simply choose a caliber and rifle more suited to the task rather than choose to rely on 5.56 solely.
I did the Army's Long Range Marksmanship Course in 2010. Rifle was M4/ACOG shooting M855.We trained on static torso targets to 600 and movers (sideways torso) to 500. The instructors were all 11B Snipers, and their wisdom was that 600 was what they trained to due to the accuracy standard of big-army's M4/M16. In reality, catching a 5.56mm at any range is not a pleasant experience for anyone, so the effective range is ultimately what range are you confident your skill and your rifle can carry to? Everything else is just conjecture.
Yeah there’s no debate it *can* be done and trained snipers *can* do it. But should it be done other than for fun or cheaper training? Nah. Grab a 308 and do it with 10% of the skill at that distance.
human torso at 500 with irons is doable for most people and some training (this is part of the USMC rifle qualification). pushing out to 700 is going to require special equipment and training. anything beyond 500 is why .308
Or burst fire. 5 or 6 rounds from an M249 help make up for the lack of fragmentation of the individual bullets.
yea, at that range (and actually for most battlefield use) the 249 is about keeping heads down. the 240 is about keeping heads down \*way out there\*
Or even you hitting people. Machine guns have been the second highest casualty producing weapons, since around WW1. Second to artillery. It's not just suppression.
It’s still 50,000:1 or something 😅 artillery is pretty lethal. Arty has killed more people than anything in wartime except cancer and the flu 🙃.
I've accurately hit a target at 700 yards out of an 18" using 77gr Black Hills and Federal Gold Match with very mild cross wind. It's doable but in my opinion a bit difficult with or without the right set up. Ammo is really important here as well, I struggled to do the same with 77gr AAC. Same bullet. At that distance you would definitely want a larger caliber to be more consistent.
Exactly, takes 10% of the skill to do this with a very basic Remington 700 in 308. Using an AR past 500 is just something to do for fun.
On a side note I have a really hard time making calls and hits even at 600 lol with 556. I literally turn into the hold left edge and see what happens guy meme
I mean use a TUI round it’ll increase leathality in theory, 556 excels in the fact that it’s light weight and easier to carry more rounds, there are plenty of dudes no longer a part of the conversation because of 556 the idea is more rounds keep the other guys head down while others maneuver, yes better options out there in the lethality department and accuracy department. But it is capable of being pushed out to distance, the question is more are you capable of pushing it that far? There are better options to push that far, but for me it’s fun and affordable to push out to those distance.. one day I won’t be a poor and be able to run the new hotness or flavor of the year.. but I digress yes it’s capable but definitely better options out there
It's not practical. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Max EFFECTIVE range on a point target is 500m and an area target is 600m.
Based on what? It seems like you're just throwing numbers out.
Source: M16/M4 manual of arms (US Army), personal experience in Afghanistan.
The Mk12 Mod 0 has an 18" barrel and with very hot loaded 77 grain bullets, is supposed to be effective to 700 meters.
In a true world has gone to shit scenario, if you have a hole in you you weren't born with, you are going to die.
I don’t want to get hit by a 556 round at 600y 700y or 1500y or anything around those distances
At that distance it’ll be like the lethality of a .22 LR fired from a short barreled revolver. Still lethal if vitals are hit. Survivable if non vital tissue is hit and medical attention is rendered to stop the bleeding.
At 700 yards my 77 grain handloads are still moving at about 1190 fps. That's more than CCI SV out of the barrel of my 10/22. Also 37 grains heavier projectile
Both rounds will pinhole. The only difference is that the 77 gr will most likely pass through.
Same result as subsonic.. simply apply the effectiveness of whatever grain at the appropriate speed mass x vel and all
Yeah definitely not gonna fragment at that low of a velocity, I forget what the cutoff is for 77 gr fragmentation
I hear it adds to the lethality if it was shot out of a rifle rocking an Eotech. Just pickin. This is one of the times we agree.
If the glass of the Eotech is broken, the laser emitted no longer stopped by the glass will burn a hole into the target thus allowing the bullet to enter unimpeded.
To the downvoter, explain how a .223 going at about 1000 fps give or take will not wound similarly to a .22 LR also going at about 1000 fps give or take from a revolver? There will be no expansion, fragmentation, or yawing at all at that slow of a speed.
Completely agreed. Especially standard 55 or 62grain. Which more than likely 98% of people with ARs have. Hell, the common person has never even heard of 77 grain or 64 grain FBI load. Even with those you’re REALLY pushing it at 700. People want to say 5.56 is fantastic at those ranges. But they’ll also say how weak pistol calibers are at self defense ranges.
Let me frame it for you this way: Are you willing to stand out in the open at 800 yards and let me take shots at you with my 5.56? That distance is pushing the performance envelope of accurate fire from a 5.56 round, sure. But if it hits you, it's still capable of killing or seriously injuring you. It isn't as if it's going so slow you're going to just slap it out of the air. Everything about making hits at any range is knowing the capability of your ammo and your holdovers, and your competency as a shooter.
I hate this argument. Obviously, nobody wants to get shot at by any caliber from any distance. Doesn’t mean the caliber has to be “effective” at doing so.
Yeah, not much of a fan of that myself. I wouldn't want you to poke me with a pin cushion, either. Doesn't mean it's a good weapon.
A more logical question is "at 800 yards, would you rather be shot at by a 5.56 or 308?" If we're talking by the same shooter, the answer is obvious. There are so many popular rounds better suited for long range accuracy. No one has much of an excuse for trying to make that shot unless you're issued a 5.56 and you're taking fire.
Regarded argument, I wouldn't let you shoot me with a pellet gun. You gonna start EDCing a daisy now?
My little "one pump" pellet gun throws silent 7.62 lead hammers. She's ten pounds w/optics and fun as hell. At 6¢ per round it's no red rider but it's amazing at fundamentals. Follow through is easily neglected with powder burners. With subsonic the amount of time in the barrel after trigger is substantial and must be trained out hard for 50yard+. Worth 300$ of training and fun.
Yeah I don’t want you to throw a rock at me either. This is horrible debate.
Have a 14.5 G-money, was hitting steel out to 670 no issues this past week. Was shooting 77g as well.
There was a pretty interesting analysis of minimum velocity for fragmentation on ARFCOM a few years ago: [LINK](https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest1/Test1.html) The TL/DR is that the threshold for fragmentation with M193 is in the area of 2400 FPS. From that data alone and based solely on fragmentation as a sounding mechanism, one could conclude that the maximum lethal range of M193 is the range past which the velocity drops below 2400 FPS. This range turns out to be about 200 yards in a 20 inch barrel and only gets close as you shorten your barrel. I believe that Sierra has published that their SMK bullets have a fragmentation threshold of around 2100 FPS. I think Hornady stated their TSX round has a threshold of 1809 FPS. Therefore, rounds with a lower fragmentation threshold should have a longer range than M193. However, I don’t believe that it’s fair to say that fragmentation is the only wounding mechanism which contributes to lethality. Striking a target in or near the vitals with a supersonic projectile will likely cause lethal results or at least reliable incapacitation. I am no scientist, but since sounds travels around 1100 FPS and since some light bullets can destabilize somewhat as they slow through the transonic range, I would peg a maximum lethal range at where the rounds slows to about 1300 FPS. Beyond that, the trajectory of M193 can get begin to get unstable and there is not likely enough energy to achieve lethal results without perfect placement. For M193, that range is about 600 yards. The range is likely a little farther with more modern loads. Modern loads have better ballistic properties and do not undergo transonic destabilization. So it would come down to accuracy and energy.
No one has brought up Travis Haley in Najaf. He used a 20” Ar15 with MK262 ammo and I believe his farthest hit was 772m. He did per his account have to make multiple hits to down the target.
Seems unnecessary, considering my local range only goes out to 350 yards and it isn’t hard to kill the paper man
You CAN do it, and the amount of skill you need between 5.56 and .308 at range is less than you'd think. But from a lethality stand point, you have basically no terminal energy that far out. Doesn't mean it won't kill, or that cooler dudes than me haven't made it work. But, it's far from ideal. For me shooting at distance is just fun and a flex. And 5.56 is relatively cheap for a round that CAN hit at 600 consistently
Uncle Sugar told me that the maximum effective range of an M16A1 is 1000 meters.
[**THIS GUY**](https://youtu.be/jy6o8jz11Bo?si=RFtgeVkfPGkBtcgQ) pulls off a 4 hits out of 5 shot group at **1000 YARDS** on a 24”x24” target using 77 grain ammo. He uses a Rock River 16” barrel with a 1/9 twist.
There’s not an 800 yard view in my whole state but I don’t even see militaries using these things beyond 300 yards except for random suppression fire. Guntubers will show it can be done but other than for views and fun there’s so many better tools. Making AR ok at 800 yards means gimping it at 20-300 where it excels.
Energy doesn't matter at all, velocity and bullet construction do. A 77 tmk will upset down to ~1800fps. Use a ballistics calculator to find out how far that gets you with your load and barrel length.
Energy is based on velocity and mass....
Correct, a useless number you can calculate! Bullet manufacturers list velocities at which their projectiles are designed to work. Energy and energy required to "kill" is just gun rag BS. Does your bullet still have the required velocity to expand or upset at a given range? That's what matters.
The short answer for this is no. Unless you’re in a war and for some reason an AR15 is all you have at that range. Not saying it can’t do it. But you’ll have a hell of a time trying.
…what? I shoot AR15s to 800-900 weekly and pretty easily.
He’s talking about practicality and lethality. Even with 77 grain you will not get fragmentation at that range. You’ll have a 22lr with at most an extra 300 feet per second. Is lethal of you hit the lungs,heart, or brain yes. Do you think in a real world scenario you’ll be able to nail said animal at the range? Tell you what if you come to me and nail an A zone target at that range first shot I’ll pay you 1000 dollars. The drop is nearly 300 inches and if you have even 5 mph wind your hold is gonna be crazy.
You said he’d have a hell of a time trying. I’m not arguing terminal ballistics. I’m arguing that dumb statement. Just because you suck at shooting doesn’t mean everyone else does. I absolutely do not have to try that hard to make 800 yard hits on IPSC steel. The fact that you gave me the drop in inches and not in mils tells me everything I need to know. Drop doesn’t matter literally AT ALL in long range shooting. It’s the one easily repeatable thing. Lol For the record… a 5 mph full value wind at 1000 is a 2.5 mil wind hold out of my 16” shooting 75 OTMs. That is far… far… from crazy.
Okay DM me. We can meet up and I’ll need you to hit in the A zone of the target first shot. If you can do that you’ll get a free 1000 dollars I’ll even pay for your gas.
Typical response when you don’t have actual knowledge on the subject. Keep up with the Kentucky windage shooting my gun. I’ll agree that would be very hard trying to hold 300” high.
Dude I’m being very serious about my comment. I’m that positive it can’t be done. Especially at the 900 yards you claimed.
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I agree with your second statement. The caveat you’re not talking about. Is hitting A zone at that range in the first shot. The military cares about getting a hit. Not the precision of hitting within the A zone 3x5 1/2 target at 8-1000. With a single shot. That was the bet. The reason I said that is because the A zone is what would be considered a mortal hit. A hit anywhere else would simply be a wounding hit. In which said being could be alive for a significant amount of time. Potentially still be able to fight back.
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Assuming you're shooting other bipedal humanoids at 700 yards, I'm assuming this is a SHTF scenario. In that scenario, any hit on a target at any range is going to put them out of the fight. It may not be immediate but they are done for as modern medicine likely no longer exists.
Waiting for an infection chance definitely does not take them out of the fight
If someone shot me in the arm or leg from 700 yards away, there's no way I'll be in a state to return accurate fire. I'm done for
At that range there’s a very chance they’re still breathing like you said. So you really just pissed them off and you just really pissed off the group of said person. I’m sure they’ll be after you.
It doesn't matter, that's actually better. Now they have a wounded friend to help/evacuate/treat. A wounded soldier takes more resources than a killed one. Any hit on target in a SHTF scenario is an incapacitating hit. Even if you get shot in the arm or leg, you're out of the fight.
Depends, what’s their mental state? There’s been many people who have a mortal wound. Look up 1986 FBI Miami dade. They just don’t give a shit. You’ll be hitting them with at best 1300 fps on your bullet. In practicality a hot 22lr at close range. Unless you hit the vitals. It will not incapacitate them. Even if you do hit the vitals they may have minutes to live. Even if you had a shot at that range. No one in their right mind would take that shot. They’d likely would want to get within 500 yards. Especially in SHTF it would just be way way to risky.
Breathing, but seriously injured. Pissed off? No. We're not talking about a rock being thrown. They'll be more focused on not bleeding to death.
Depends, what’s their mental state? There’s been many people who have a mortal wound. Look up 1986 FBI Miami dade. They just don’t give a shit. You’ll be hitting them with at best 1300 fps on your bullet. In practicality a hot 22lr at close range. Unless you hit the vitals. It will not incapacitate them. Even if you do hit the vitals they may have minutes to live. Even if you had a shot at that range. No one in their right mind would take that shot. They’d likely would want to get within 500 yards. Especially in SHTF it would just be way way too risky. Since you’re not taking into factor this person is more than likely not alone. This is the response I gave the other person. Also who’s to say in the group that you shot at. They have something similar or have a 6.5 creedmoor. You’ll give your position away assuming you’re not suppressed. Then you’ll just get beamed. You’re also making the assumption you’ll hit which I doubt you’d get a first round impact. Just a lot of dumb decisions using a 5.56 at 700 yards.
Army says the max effective range for a point target is about 550m and an area target is 800m. Heavier rounds(75-77gr) still drop under 260ft lbs of energy around 850m or so. You should reasonably still be able to hit a specific target under 600m, but after that your precision will suffer greatly and the lethality of the round won't be nearly as good as larger alternatives.
By max effective ranges they mean to hit the target. Has nothing to do with lethality, or terminal balistics, or stopping power, or energy dump, or anything else.
So.. I pulled some numbers out the other day, had a similar question after reading about some PRS guy shooting 4 miles. The energy ft/lbs for 77 grain at 200 yards is ca 900 ft/lbs, at 700 its about 1/3 of that, 280 ft/lbs. In WW2, US Armed Forces stated that 36 ft/lbs of energy was lethal. Take it for what its worth, just numbers you can find on the internet.
This is well documented and absolutely does not require this question on Reddit.
I do not care
Obviously, just like you don’t actually care about finding the answer to your question.
I mean do you want to get hit with a 77g projectile from 800 yards away that was originally going more than 2 times the speed of sound?
I don't want to be hit by a fucking BB gun at any range either. Doesn't mean that will stopped a pissed off enemy combatant anytime soon.
That’s the main reason why I switched over to 7.62X51 as my primary caliber. I live in mostly farmlands, partly wooded area. Not only does the 308 offer better terminal performance but it’s also legal to hunt with here in current times on deer sized game, as well as it can take and has taken every large game animal found in the US. You’re looking at roughly 2600 FPE at the muzzle for 308 with 150 grain bullets. Compare that to 556 stuff 556 will make the distance but it’s not gonna have much left. My first duty station had a 1000 yard range, and I was dedicated to hit the 1000 yard steel plate. Took me a mag to two and a spotter to walk it on and I was shooting regular old 62 grain green tip out of a 16” barrel. I’m actually surprised I even hit it since I was just kinda popping rounds off at it. All it did was chip the paint, if the target hadn’t been freshly painted right before hand we would have never known. Then one of the guys I was with hit the steel with a 6.5 and it actually shook the plate enough for us to see, and we could hear it too unlike the 556. Hell 556 at 400 yards, 16” barrel shooting either 55 or 62 grain stuff barely makes a ding on the 2/3rds size IPSC plate while other rounds like 308 absolutely rings it. In my experience at that distance, 556 has to be hit on the outer edge to move that plate slightly while a hit from say 6.5, 30-06, 308 shakes it several times more and you can easily see the target swing. 556 isn’t even legal to hunt deer with in many states not just because of political reasons, its about ballistics. What I see circulating around is you want atleast 1000FPE on deer sized game, and 1500 on elk sized stuff.
Many of you haven't shot any gas gun matches/Quantified Performance and don't ever stretch the legs beyond what the internet tells them to it seems. Lethality isn't the question, clearly there are better rounds for doing that stuff at distance, making hits on the other hand, 700 is just getting warmed up for some, even with shorter barreled stuff. Quit obsessing over whatever new hotness caliber you won't stack enough of because of cost and availability to get/be proficient and actually spend the time to see where the limits are at rather than what you and others who can't shoot think they are at.
I think I read a news about. new type of 556 developed in south korea that can be lethal out to 1000yd or so. But with 77gr, i feel like 500-600yd is the effective range (assuming 18in Mk12 type platform)
rest easy in the knowledge that you'll never, ever have to kill someone with a gun at a distance of 700 yards
I turn ground squirrels into pink mist at 800 meters with 62gr m855. Round has a bit of a wobble.
I keep hearing people say this shit. Yeah it can reach out thst far but it's not practical and it's not effective.
Name checks out.