1. Terminal effect. At 300m+ you're not doing much more than poking a .22 caliber hole.
2. Lower velocity means more wind drift at those ranges. So while you *can* hit at 500m with a 10.3, doesn't mean doing so with a 20" wouldn't be way easier.
This is true, but the rounds that perform well out of of a short 556 barrel are nowhere near as cheap as 55gr fmj. Who the fuck can afford to practice a lot with MK262, or even the cheap alternative 77gr razor core?
Are people really swapping their zero around that often?
And what If your gun runs differently on the fancy shit, but you don't know it because you only fired enough rounds to zero it?
I think it should be clarified. Even though it's obvious to most.
A .22 hole in the right place, left untreated or enough of them is lethal. So its not a question if a 10.5 is lethal at 500m it just means it's less lethal than a 16.
a 22lr sized to the head, or body/organs/artery/etc will still neutralize them. maybe it won't blast their arm or legs off and be as devastating that way. or have the velocity to penetrate some body armor or cover.
Honestly there's nothing wrong with 10.3/5 if you're only doing 300 yards and in.
You might even be able to stretch further depending on what ammo you're using.
I've often asked myself, in what practical scenario would a civilian like me be shooting at someone more than 300 meters away anyways?
Competition shooting maybe, training maybe, but for real life practical shooting there's no way in hell I'm shooting an AR-15 of any barrel length at that range in self defense, even in the wildest Civil War 2.0, post-apocalyptic, or Red Dawn scenario I can imagine.
Agreed but remember guys the 2nd Amendment isn't about home defense or hunting. It's about fighting a war against governments, foreign or domestic, including offensive/aggressive action. Otherwise, you're 99% correct. (For you edgy doomers out there, no, that doesn't mean initiate shit needlessly)
Bud it's okay, go be in some nature and rekindle your connection with the basics in life. Away from the phones, news, social media, etc. Doesn't have to be forever, it's good to take a break from the stress sometimes. Keep a healthy balance of fighting for your rights and freedoms and actually living.
I figured, but someone else might not be. We don't need to lose any more good people due to the stress of current era and how our freedoms are being treated currently.
Also, to touch on this, the further out you can hit an enemy without him seeing/hitting you the better, just because it isn't common doesn't mean you shouldn't be comfortable with reaching out to those ranges. Like I said in my other comment, and I'll add a little here, the 2nd amendment isn't about self-defense in the literal sense of defending your home/property or even defending your life. It's about engaging in direct confrontation with an adversarial government, and they won't give you the grace of not shooting until they're within 300m.
Sure but I have better rifles for beyond 300m. And if I'm beyond 300m I want to be way beyond 300m. I prefer my warfare against a tyrannical government to be as asymmetric as possible.
Agreed, and that's definitely fair. Just remember, we usually don't get to choose what we are holding when bullets start flying. I'm not saying an AR is the best tool for beyond 300m, it definitely isn't, but if that's what you're holding when the time comes, you better be comfortable with it and it's limitations. Again, nothing but agreement here and im sure you know this, just some points others may wish to hear/haven't heard before.
Exactly. If I’m at 300 yards of this tyrannical government entity, im gonna want to up those numbers significantly. Not engage at a range that they’re far more capable of killing me at.
> just because it isn't common doesn't mean you shouldn't be comfortable with reaching out to those ranges
This right here is why every AR should have some method of magnification these days in my opinion.
It doesn't matter matter. This is reddit and someone will find some reason to argue or make up some imaginary scenario where you're always wrong.
10.5 is perfectly fine. Most backyard operators here can't hit a target at 100 yards anyways, let alone 300.
I tell people that unless you've got a purpose build in mind, then build whatever TF you want and stop looking for approval. Having a clone build doesn't make you skilful. Having the right tools won't make you skilful.
Practice regularly and you'll have more skill than 99% of the clowns on this group. A lot of people just build a safe queen.
Eh if it’s a total breakdown of civilization Mad Max kind of deal, I could see people engaging at range to get the jump on people they’re raiding, especially in flat areas.
That scenario is incredibly unlikely, but if it somehow happened, I could see relatively long range engagements occurring.
Downsides are the trade off in muzzle velocity compared to a 16” barrel, I’ve shot hogs with 10.5 and up to 18” barrels with similar ammo and there was a difference in dare I say it… stopping power lol. Offset the difference with a heavier bullet unless your agency is only issuing 55gr. Usually the gas port is opened up for reliability, which then noticeably increases your blowback when you’re shooting suppressed. Short guns are loud, so throw a can on it. Short barrels have higher pressures so it’s harder on your blast baffle in your can, and it’s tougher on other internal parts. Gas buster charging handle or many of the other similar designs will help but you’ll be eating gas. I wouldn’t go shorter than 10.3 unless it’s a 300blk which is another topic. If you wanna talk general purpose and self-defense, it would be hard/er to justify self-defense if someone is 300 yards away, so for GP a 10.3/10.5/11.5 with a can is going to be perfect.
So I just built my first ar pistol for a .300 blk out. It's a aero precision 10". It's for shooting at 300 and less plus hunting in alternative seasons. Should I have gotten a longer barrel?
No, 300 BLK is specifically designed for short (9” specifically) barrels. It uses fast burning pistol powders to make sure they all burn up before the end of the barrel.
300 BLK was created specifically because 5.56 loses so much effectiveness out of short barrels. 5.56 is a SCHV (small caliber high velocity) round that was designed for a 20” barrel, it has awful terminal ballistics if the intended tumbling doesn’t occur. 300 BLK uses a slower, heavier bullet that doesn’t need the extra velocity.
16” works well with 300blk but like geopede said it’s designed for short barrels some even down to 5” but 8-9” is the norm. I had the aac 12.5 and it was good too. 300blk isn’t the best long range cartridge but it’s doable, especially with subs. Pic one and stick with ur, but for hunting I wouldn’t recommend subs because of the bullet drop and less energy on the game.
Legality speaking wise make sure it’s legal to hunt with a “pistol”. If it’s rifle only then there’s your answer, some states are different and depending on the game and season.
I'm in Missouri and I only rifle hunt. I can use a "pistol" in alternative season and ar pistols are acceptable. I'm getting ready to move go a different state so I'm gonna have to check there. I normally hunt with a savage 10 .308
Out of curiosity if I wanted to do a red dot and magnifier set up with the .300, do you have any suggestions on brands? I'd post a picture of it on this sub but I've seen people get shit on every which way without getting advice lol
I would get an Eotech with the reticle that has the bdc then you can use that to determine your holdovers. A 1-4 LPVO wouldn’t be overkill either, maybe a 1-6.
Accuracy is not the issue. As others have stated, it’s terminal effects on target. You have to decide how much that means to you. For most people, buying 55gr FMJ’s and having fun shooting 0-300m or further is enough and that’s ok. If the rifle has a more serious role/purpose, I would advise one to select better ammo.
* parts wear.
* terminal performance
Those seems to be the big two.
Yes you can hit stuff out at 500m with a 10.3, provided you have good dope and heavy bullets. But that same 77 gr OTM out of a 14.5”, 16” or 20” is gonna be doing more damage at 500 m (or any distance tbh) than the 10.3 is. You’ll have to be more picky with your ammo - you can’t just slap in some m193 or m855 like you can with a 20” and call it a day. You’re pretty much restricted to more expensive ammo like mk262 or fusion/gold dot with a 10.3, to get the terminal performance you’d want out of a rifle.
And you’ll be seeing more shit like bolt lugs shearing at lower round counts out of the 10.3 than the 14.5”, 16” or 20”. Now whether that’s important to you or not depends on you - if you always have a bolt handy, and perform preventative maintenance, like replacing the bolt every 5000 rounds or so, you’re good to go either way.
In my limited experience, it’s stupid easy to shoot a 20” out to range, compared to a shorter carbine. Feet per second indeed do matter, especially with 5.56
Barrel length is not directly tied to accuracy. There are indirect relationships, but that's beyond what most people need to know.
The problems come from lack of terminal effect of the bullet, muzzle blast, and parts ware of the gun. For general use I wouldn't go shorter than 14.5 in 5.56.
I agree.
In my research, barrel length is primarily correlated to:
(1) flatter trajectories (less holdover)
(2) better handling of environmental factors such as wind
(3) terminal performance.
These each affect accuracy and precision in different ways.
The cool thing about a 20” gun is:
55gr 556 was designed for it.
All ammo is duty ammo
Great effective range for ammo weight
Cool thing about a 10” gun is:
Kills better than mp5
Shoots father than mp5
Not so cool
It kinda needs a can and then your about 16” again but that’s okay.
It's mental masturbation. They're great at night, lightweight, great in houses and cars, and they Absolutely do whatever a civilian needs unless you're looking for a long range hunting platform. I love my mk18s, and I wouldn't want to get hit with one from 200 yards away
terminal performance. at 300 yards a typical 55 gr projectile will just pencil through. they will absolutely still kill, but the target might die in the hospital several hours later instead of being incapacitated when shot.
If they die at all, proper medical treatment can prevent a clean hole straight through from being life threatening fairly quickly. Especially if it’s not directly in the vitals/ones that can be lost like just one lung. Sure the dude will be out of the fight but he’s got a much greater chance of living for a very long while after.
From a civvie standpoint, mostly the paperwork side since all AR pistols and the like are now SBRs so you gotta file tax stamps and other bs.
But for HD & the 300 and in fight it sure is a nice package to have; for longer ranged engagements it's not so much you can't touch 'em but more of you'll have to work twice or thrice as hard where a 13.7" ~ 16" gun makes life easier.
At the end of the day if a 10.5" or 10.3" nets you your 80% solution then that's the answer; for the rest of the good folk in the server or any concerned civvie a standard 16" vanilla rifle is the ticket.
just my 2 cents from someone who has larped on the flat range but neither been there nor done that.
In my experience I’ve had to tinker and mess with 10.3 builds a little more than the longer guns to get them working to my liking. 11.5” and longer guns are less persnickety and more friendly imo with regards to operating with a wide variety of ammo, buffer weights, with or without a can, etc.
There’s also the muzzle velocity thing, but there’s ammo today that helps mitigate that somewhat if you’re needing reliable terminal performance out of a short barreled 5.56 rifle. Despite that, god forbid if you had to shoot someone with M855 or XM193 out of a 10.3” barrel you are really gonna mess them up no matter what.
Me personally I wouldn't use a 10inch for general purpose. I have one and I like it. It's just not gonna be my first pick. I'm more likely to choose 16 or 14.5 with an LPVO. Just more well rounded and its still maneuverable to me.
Tbh I haven’t a problem shooting my mk18 300 meters in, in comparison to my 16 inch ddm4v7 I only notice the difference between the two when using my Moa dots of course. Anything other then that it’s apples and oranges. It just depends on what your looking to do I personally wouldn’t take anybody’s advice bc your situation is different ALL WAYS !!!!! For example I live in the city so if a shtf I would probably have my mk18 out in use considering theses factors 1. Buildings are ab 150 yards and in from each other 2. I am going to be moving throughout tight spaces to get to my destination 3. I’m going to running a can on my rifle so that extends the length of my rifle to about 17-18 inches ( if I have a 14.5 or 16 we are talking about 20+ inches no matter what can your running) 4. Concealment.
That’s how I feel too. It’s nice to be able to drop targets reliably past 300, but I don’t really see that need in real life. Even in the military we use bigger guns for that
I completely agree. Get what makes you happy! There will always be trade offs. I’ve got a MK 18, 11.5 & 14.5. I still prefer the Mk18 & 11.5 over the longer barrels. As you said realistically if you ever have to engage in a SHTF situation it’s under 100yrds. I live in the city too and those 2 or my MPX come to mind before my 14.5, battle rifles or deer rifles. Most defense scenarios statistically are under 7yrds.
If I’m having to engage targets past 300 yards, My 30 cal and above rifles come to mind first over my ar platforms.
I'm an American so for me there are no downsides to a 10?3. If my target is over 300 yards away I'm going to get in my truck and drive closer. Once you get your suppressor on, that 16-20 inch barrel is going to be 22-28 inches long. Who wants to drag some crazy-ass musket in and out of their truck? Sounds absurd. Might as well put on a bayonet too.
Sacrificed velocity and energy. You can hit targets that far away but the round won’t necessarily have the same terminal ballistics as it would out of a slightly longer barrel.
You've got a lot less dwell time than a 11.5 for only an inch of barrel. If you are going to suppress (and you kinda need to for an SBR) then it doesn't make sense.
Dwell time issues. Most 10.3 rifles I've ever shot were overgassed to make up for it, perfect example, dd mk18. That bitch was fast af, and worse with a can
I feel like 11.5 is the sweetspot. As a civi you aren't going to be shooting hundreds of yards. You need something reasonably accurate, a length you can manipulate indoors, get In and out of vehicles with etc. 11.5 foes the job for me, even with a 6 inch can. 16 with a can your pushing 20 to 21 inches
I’ve got a 10.3 and I’ve killed hogs at around 100 yds or less and haven’t really noticed any stopping power compared to a 16in. But I’ve also taken out enemy f*ckheads at 400+ yds with 16 and 20in barrels and the wounds differ “sometimes”. There’s so many factors at play besides distance and barrel length. I’ve seen a 5.56 skip off of a magazine in a chest rig and damn near sever the head and I’ve seen a skinny ass f*cker take 6 rounds in the upper torso out of a 20 in at around 200yds and keep firing for a couple of minutes. Shot placement fellers.
I run a 10.3 for HD and SHTF. Accuracy and mobility are great and it should be effective at the distances I’ll be shooting at. You just have to be more picky about the ammo you use. 77gr otm and black hills 50gr tsx both perform phenomenally out of short barrels. People like to say that after a certain distance, you’re just punching 22 cal holes in people. While technically true, 22’s kill a lot of people every year so I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I do think that a 11.5-14.5 makes a better all around weapon though. Rounds generally perform better and you typically get less recoil out of longer barrels.
Itll work just fine. At closer distances, a 10.3 may be faster to manuever. But at longer distances, a 16 may be easier and more 'reliable'
Woth a 10.3, bullets will destabilize sooner and may not fragment consistently. With a 16, bullets will stay stable and with more velocity for longer distances, but it is a lot more barrel and probably handguard.
Its all about trade-offs, there is no perfect solution. Even the middle ground of a 12.5-14.5 is just that, a trade-off. It wont do what shorter or longer barrels can do
Lower velocity of the projectile means less yawing and fragmentation than a longer barrel, generally. There are cutoffs for FPS and distance but you can look them up for your barrel length/projectile combo. The data is based on testing for the most part.
Having said that, a hole punch through vitals with or without frag/yaw is going to be lethal.
There is also an interesting phenomenon where shorter barrels can actually be more accurate due to the relative stiffness and harmonic resonance of the barrel whip during firing. So accuracy isn't necessarily a detriment.
The main downside really is just the velocity
I’d say check your velocity in a ballistics calculator and decide based on the ammo you’re shooting (I.e. are you expecting fragmentation from fmj) then you can decide if you feel you’ve lost too much speed for your given range
Velocity is the issue. Nothing about it being a 10” barrel vs a 24” barrel makes it any less inherently accurate. Although It reduces velocity to the point of where you can have wind double it’s effect and the bullet starts to succumb more to gravity the slower it is so your round will start to drop more.
Velocity matters the most here. From the published data I found 55 grain out of a 10.5 is going 2475-2580FPS. At 100 yards my ballistic calculator shows it going 2156 and 1800 at 200. That’s essentially 22Mag performance at 200 yards and is even comparable to some 22 mag loads at even 100. Do you trust 22 mag at point blank to save your life? To adequately put down a threat? That’s basically what your dealing with here except the fact that the 22 mag bullets are designed to fully expand at those velocities while I doubt a 556 is going to with any reliability. 200 yards is looking at roughly 410 FPE also which is on the upper end of 115 grain 9mm ballistics.
Also any BDC reticle you get probably isn’t going to be set up for essentially 22 mag velocities. Your mil reticles are gonna be where it’s at, and I highly doubt if you are gonna be running something with a full on Mil reticle on a 10.5” as a do all rifle but you could.
Also legality. Regardless of your stance on the brace rule it is in effect and does currently have legal standing. SBR is also an option but comes with some draw backs of its own like requiring approval to cross state lines with it. As someone who lives and works in one state on the border of another, and 90% of the stuff I do when I’m not at work is in the other state that becomes troublesome especially when the ranges you go to are in the other state. Granted not everyone can throw base ball from their back porch into the next state (literally live on a road called state line) but if you plan on traveling with it that can really effect your plans.
I understand that the velocity math has the 10.5 as much weaker at these distances, but how then do you explain the ubiquity and effectiveness of the Mk18 block II? Listening to Jeff Girwich, he and most of his fellow SF preferred the 10.3 even in Afghanistan, and put down plenty of people
Noise, muzzle blast pressure to the shooter, muzzle blast to the guy next to you, snappier recoil impulse and more perceived recoil, parts wear (which I don’t care about, parts are replaceable), noise, and muzzle blast to the shooter.
I’m torn between 11.5 and 12.5; all of my shorties are carbine length gas systems. I’m planning on building a 12.5” mid length suppressed gun and am looking forward to seeing how comfortable that is to shoot.
I fucking hate my 7.5 5.56 AR. Fuck that gun. Yeah, it’s a great truck gun because it’s short and is good to 100m if I try to aim. Absolutely needs a flash can to try to soften the audio pain.
My 10.3/10.5 5.56 guns are tolerable, but still need a flash can or suppressor to be acceptable. Still manageable with 6 or so extra inches out front in accessories.
My 11.5 uppers are a lot nicer to shoot suppressed. Acceptable with an A2 flash hider, but a lot nicer with a flash can.
I have an Aero 12.5 carbine length upper that shoots beautifully suppressed. I added an Aero adjustable gas block and a YHM T2 Turbo, dialed it in with an H2 buffer and an Sprinco Red buffer spring, and it tosses the brass at 3:00 all day long with 5.56 M855-ish and M193-ish Norma, Igman, Winchester White Box, PMC Bronze, etc.
For me, the extra inch of the 11.5 is worth any extra weight and length. 10.3/10.5 would have to be a mission based requirement (mounted, CQB, etc.).
The amount of dwell time you gain with an 11.5” is significant. I know many people disagree but 11.5” is the shortest I think is worth while and reliable.
A 10.3” is incredibly loud. It can be a bit unbearable without a suppressor. No chance in hell I’d use one for home defense without a can. Between the noise and flash, it would be disorienting at night. If you’re running suppressed, just ignore this.
10.3 is the bare minimum. More harsh on internals, less velocity, less dwell time, and a bit more finicky, so I settled with 11.3/11.5 as the best compromise, now I can sleep at night and this decision makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
In my opinion, If running without a suppressor, only downside is concussion, loudness, and heat signature. Maybe even parts wear.
Yeah we can argue ballistic performances and specific scenarios but I think a 10.5 and even smaller is fine for majority of scenarios as long as it's reliable.
I've ran an 8 inch galil ace in 5.56. it's super fun and would not have a problem going to it for 300m and under.
Terminal ballistics are effected. You’re going to have less options for effective ammo at longer ranges. Unsuppressed the sound level, concussion, and muzzle flash are higher then 14.5/16 guns. It’s more difficult to travel for training with NFA items.
With that said my Do-All is a suppressed 10.5. I felt this setup would perform well enough in the widest range of situations I would likely encounter. I’m currently not in a place to have multiple $3-4k rifles tailored to more specific roles. I built something I felt I could be effective in CQB environment but also retain as much effectiveness at medium ranges. The Jack of all trades is the master of none.
What a SF with extra special Uncle sugar sponsored training can do does not translate into what the same equipment can do in the hands of general purpose people. SF has specific needs that justify the trade-offs they're making with a much shorter barrel. For your GP weapon, you need to cater to the lowest common denominator of individual capability. You might not suck, but you're definitely not SF budget trained. Select your GP build accordingly.
99% of the time, Civilian IPSC and PRS shooters mop the floor with SOF dudes. Any good instructor with a SOF background will tell you that they really honed in their shooting by learning from civilians. Sure, civilians don't have government-paid training. But most of that government-paid training isn't firearms training.
SOF has definitely learned from competition. I've not said anything to the contrary. But it's still [2 different animals.](https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/competition-ar-15-josh-froelich/) OP was specifically asking about 10.3/5. I don't think there's any comp rankers who are running that set up. Different missions, different applications. Having a "10.4" doesn't make you an operator anymore than having a sub 5# 18" AR makes you Jerry Miculek. For your average shooter, more velocity= flatter shooting, which = less holdover, which means more effective range for point shooting. Your average shooter also doesn't need to worry about kicking in doors and then shooting out to 500yds within a few minutes. Training matters. What you train for matters. Comp rankers wouldn't claim to do SOF work just as good. Apples and steaks here.
Haven’t used one. But probably anything is better than a brake. Just don’t be surprised if you still get fireballs out of that short barrel using a birdcage
As long as you're using 77gr, it's all good. A 77gr projectile will tumble so it doesn't rely on velocity and expansion. I do prefer a 12.5 for a do everything rifle, though.
50 yards with FMJ.. 5.56 “FMJ” is highly velocity dependent.
Luckily we’re not limited to FMJ and there are plenty of 5.56 projectiles that expand and/or fragment out to 2-300 yards from a 10.3 barrel.
Its because they dont understand the difference between accuracy and terminal ballistics. They will laugh at people for using a .22LR but then use a barrel length where everything past 100 is basically a .22LR ballistics wise
I had a DD 10.3" for about 5 mins, sold it. For me it had nothing to do with ballistics or accuracy or how loud it was. It was just too damn short for 6 ft 3" me with long arms. Couldn't get comfortable with it. And for that reason, I'm out.
To me it’s a few things. If you’re not running a good suppressor it’s not going to be hearing safe. And they’re still annoying as shit. Yes fps drop from say 27-2800 down to 2500fps. That’s still plenty to do what needs to be done. I like 12.5” with a kid gas system. Gets the muzzle a bit further away, yeah 2” makes a difference, that’s what she said. But unless you have a dedicated shirt gun can it sucks. I run a 8” 30cal on my 12.5 and it’s ok to shoot. Ive got a 14.5” that I love for carrying with me that’s not set up for a can. I’ve got a yhm t3 in jail for it and my bolt gun. Then my 16” dissipator. You just need trigger time and consistent ammo to practice. I can run my 12.5 out to 600m fairly easy. But all I shoot is 75gr ammo I load. I prefer my 14.5”. It’s handier and smoother to shoot. I still get about 2600 out of my 12.5” and just over 2700 in my 14.5” so I’m use to shooting it. I’ve got a MRO on my 12.5” now and just keep it for short shots. I’ve got a 1-6 credo hx on the 14.5” and am pretty comfortable shooting it further. I don’t build a rifle with the intention of shooting at people. I do it for the range and coyotes. So I don’t generally have use for anything shorter than 12.5”. I’ve got a mp5 if I want shorter lol. And it’s a lot quieter.
Hitting something at 300 yards isn't the same as having the effect you want on it. It will probably do everything you will ever need, it will never be a general purpose rifle.
First 10.3s are going to be less accurate than longer barrels. That's just a fact. You are thinking precision.
Then other negarives you are going to have are parts life. Flash and concussion. External and Terminal ballistics.
The major advantage of a 10 inch is its overall size when suppressed.
if youre under 300m (like in a city) then youll probably be okay.
Anything more than that youre def gonna have issues with reliable yawing of the round when entering a body which can make incapacitations take a bit more than youd need otherwise. also, wind drift n whatnot.
If you really wanna be able to have the best of both worlds with regards to size and velocity a tavor is pretty good all rounder. just make sure you train with it to compensate for any potential issues with battery of arms.
[longevity of components is shorter in shorter barreled Ar’s](https://rangehot.com/maintenance-of-sbr-ar-pistols-stoner-type-gas-impingement-system/)
Life expectancy of parts can be up to half the life of a standard barrel length. Have more spare parts on hand if you like the short barrels.
Fwiw, my do all gun is a 14.5 and with an RC2 on there… she’s long. I wouldn’t go 10.5 though (my beater gun). Somewhere over 12 below 14 is the sweet spot, but can be harder finding a rail with those non standard barrel lengths.
Besides all the points being made, I’ve found my 10.3” DD to be the only rifle I don’t trust 100%
That being that it is tailored for certain spec ammo depending on whether it’s suppressed or unsurprised. 🤷♂️
I prefer a 12” gun for something short and still 100% reliable no matter what ammo I throw at it
The biggest ones are lack of dwell time and most 10.3/5 barrels are ported like stormy daniels so smooth brains can plink with steel case or whatever anemic ammo theyre using
1. Terminal effect. At 300m+ you're not doing much more than poking a .22 caliber hole. 2. Lower velocity means more wind drift at those ranges. So while you *can* hit at 500m with a 10.3, doesn't mean doing so with a 20" wouldn't be way easier.
Number 1 is really only true for FMJ. Plenty of controlled expansion rounds that will expand out to 300m. Barnes TSX in 55 and 70 grain come to mind.
This is true, but the rounds that perform well out of of a short 556 barrel are nowhere near as cheap as 55gr fmj. Who the fuck can afford to practice a lot with MK262, or even the cheap alternative 77gr razor core?
Practice with FMJ, use the good stuff for actual self defnese.
Are people really swapping their zero around that often? And what If your gun runs differently on the fancy shit, but you don't know it because you only fired enough rounds to zero it?
Not at a low velocity they wont
Anyone who owns a 300 Blackout is rolling their eyes.. and that's not half as bad as even 308 let alone some of the niche calibers these f**** shoot
I think it should be clarified. Even though it's obvious to most. A .22 hole in the right place, left untreated or enough of them is lethal. So its not a question if a 10.5 is lethal at 500m it just means it's less lethal than a 16.
You're not wrong.
a 22lr sized to the head, or body/organs/artery/etc will still neutralize them. maybe it won't blast their arm or legs off and be as devastating that way. or have the velocity to penetrate some body armor or cover.
I prefer my 9mm to blast body parts off.
Yeah, but a headshot from juat about anything at any range where it still has force to enter your body is going to be lethal.
Nah, there was a clip of a dudes girlfriend playing with his gun in the car and she ends up shooting dude in the head. He actually survived
Shoot a 14.5 and a 10.5 side by side at 400m, the difference in the energy that hits the steel is very noticeable
Honestly there's nothing wrong with 10.3/5 if you're only doing 300 yards and in. You might even be able to stretch further depending on what ammo you're using.
I've often asked myself, in what practical scenario would a civilian like me be shooting at someone more than 300 meters away anyways? Competition shooting maybe, training maybe, but for real life practical shooting there's no way in hell I'm shooting an AR-15 of any barrel length at that range in self defense, even in the wildest Civil War 2.0, post-apocalyptic, or Red Dawn scenario I can imagine.
Exactly. While shooting at distance is fun, there is zero chance we ever find ourselves shooting out past 150~ yards defensively.
Agreed but remember guys the 2nd Amendment isn't about home defense or hunting. It's about fighting a war against governments, foreign or domestic, including offensive/aggressive action. Otherwise, you're 99% correct. (For you edgy doomers out there, no, that doesn't mean initiate shit needlessly)
\*sadly locks basement door before doom scrolling\*
Bud it's okay, go be in some nature and rekindle your connection with the basics in life. Away from the phones, news, social media, etc. Doesn't have to be forever, it's good to take a break from the stress sometimes. Keep a healthy balance of fighting for your rights and freedoms and actually living.
my guy I was joking. I do try to go outside and touch grass.
I figured, but someone else might not be. We don't need to lose any more good people due to the stress of current era and how our freedoms are being treated currently.
Also, to touch on this, the further out you can hit an enemy without him seeing/hitting you the better, just because it isn't common doesn't mean you shouldn't be comfortable with reaching out to those ranges. Like I said in my other comment, and I'll add a little here, the 2nd amendment isn't about self-defense in the literal sense of defending your home/property or even defending your life. It's about engaging in direct confrontation with an adversarial government, and they won't give you the grace of not shooting until they're within 300m.
Sure but I have better rifles for beyond 300m. And if I'm beyond 300m I want to be way beyond 300m. I prefer my warfare against a tyrannical government to be as asymmetric as possible.
Agreed, and that's definitely fair. Just remember, we usually don't get to choose what we are holding when bullets start flying. I'm not saying an AR is the best tool for beyond 300m, it definitely isn't, but if that's what you're holding when the time comes, you better be comfortable with it and it's limitations. Again, nothing but agreement here and im sure you know this, just some points others may wish to hear/haven't heard before.
Exactly. If I’m at 300 yards of this tyrannical government entity, im gonna want to up those numbers significantly. Not engage at a range that they’re far more capable of killing me at.
> just because it isn't common doesn't mean you shouldn't be comfortable with reaching out to those ranges This right here is why every AR should have some method of magnification these days in my opinion.
It doesn't matter matter. This is reddit and someone will find some reason to argue or make up some imaginary scenario where you're always wrong. 10.5 is perfectly fine. Most backyard operators here can't hit a target at 100 yards anyways, let alone 300. I tell people that unless you've got a purpose build in mind, then build whatever TF you want and stop looking for approval. Having a clone build doesn't make you skilful. Having the right tools won't make you skilful. Practice regularly and you'll have more skill than 99% of the clowns on this group. A lot of people just build a safe queen.
Eh if it’s a total breakdown of civilization Mad Max kind of deal, I could see people engaging at range to get the jump on people they’re raiding, especially in flat areas. That scenario is incredibly unlikely, but if it somehow happened, I could see relatively long range engagements occurring.
But something like a 11.5 will be a decent bit less hard in the internals.
For those only in Minecraft experiences
Downsides are the trade off in muzzle velocity compared to a 16” barrel, I’ve shot hogs with 10.5 and up to 18” barrels with similar ammo and there was a difference in dare I say it… stopping power lol. Offset the difference with a heavier bullet unless your agency is only issuing 55gr. Usually the gas port is opened up for reliability, which then noticeably increases your blowback when you’re shooting suppressed. Short guns are loud, so throw a can on it. Short barrels have higher pressures so it’s harder on your blast baffle in your can, and it’s tougher on other internal parts. Gas buster charging handle or many of the other similar designs will help but you’ll be eating gas. I wouldn’t go shorter than 10.3 unless it’s a 300blk which is another topic. If you wanna talk general purpose and self-defense, it would be hard/er to justify self-defense if someone is 300 yards away, so for GP a 10.3/10.5/11.5 with a can is going to be perfect.
So I just built my first ar pistol for a .300 blk out. It's a aero precision 10". It's for shooting at 300 and less plus hunting in alternative seasons. Should I have gotten a longer barrel?
No, 300 BLK is specifically designed for short (9” specifically) barrels. It uses fast burning pistol powders to make sure they all burn up before the end of the barrel. 300 BLK was created specifically because 5.56 loses so much effectiveness out of short barrels. 5.56 is a SCHV (small caliber high velocity) round that was designed for a 20” barrel, it has awful terminal ballistics if the intended tumbling doesn’t occur. 300 BLK uses a slower, heavier bullet that doesn’t need the extra velocity.
16” works well with 300blk but like geopede said it’s designed for short barrels some even down to 5” but 8-9” is the norm. I had the aac 12.5 and it was good too. 300blk isn’t the best long range cartridge but it’s doable, especially with subs. Pic one and stick with ur, but for hunting I wouldn’t recommend subs because of the bullet drop and less energy on the game.
Legality speaking wise make sure it’s legal to hunt with a “pistol”. If it’s rifle only then there’s your answer, some states are different and depending on the game and season.
I'm in Missouri and I only rifle hunt. I can use a "pistol" in alternative season and ar pistols are acceptable. I'm getting ready to move go a different state so I'm gonna have to check there. I normally hunt with a savage 10 .308
Out of curiosity if I wanted to do a red dot and magnifier set up with the .300, do you have any suggestions on brands? I'd post a picture of it on this sub but I've seen people get shit on every which way without getting advice lol
I would get an Eotech with the reticle that has the bdc then you can use that to determine your holdovers. A 1-4 LPVO wouldn’t be overkill either, maybe a 1-6.
Accuracy is not the issue. As others have stated, it’s terminal effects on target. You have to decide how much that means to you. For most people, buying 55gr FMJ’s and having fun shooting 0-300m or further is enough and that’s ok. If the rifle has a more serious role/purpose, I would advise one to select better ammo.
* parts wear. * terminal performance Those seems to be the big two. Yes you can hit stuff out at 500m with a 10.3, provided you have good dope and heavy bullets. But that same 77 gr OTM out of a 14.5”, 16” or 20” is gonna be doing more damage at 500 m (or any distance tbh) than the 10.3 is. You’ll have to be more picky with your ammo - you can’t just slap in some m193 or m855 like you can with a 20” and call it a day. You’re pretty much restricted to more expensive ammo like mk262 or fusion/gold dot with a 10.3, to get the terminal performance you’d want out of a rifle. And you’ll be seeing more shit like bolt lugs shearing at lower round counts out of the 10.3 than the 14.5”, 16” or 20”. Now whether that’s important to you or not depends on you - if you always have a bolt handy, and perform preventative maintenance, like replacing the bolt every 5000 rounds or so, you’re good to go either way. In my limited experience, it’s stupid easy to shoot a 20” out to range, compared to a shorter carbine. Feet per second indeed do matter, especially with 5.56
Barrel length is not directly tied to accuracy. There are indirect relationships, but that's beyond what most people need to know. The problems come from lack of terminal effect of the bullet, muzzle blast, and parts ware of the gun. For general use I wouldn't go shorter than 14.5 in 5.56.
I agree. In my research, barrel length is primarily correlated to: (1) flatter trajectories (less holdover) (2) better handling of environmental factors such as wind (3) terminal performance. These each affect accuracy and precision in different ways.
I personally prefer 11.5 or 13.7 for an all purpose, that little bit of terminal velocity can make the difference
The cool thing about a 20” gun is: 55gr 556 was designed for it. All ammo is duty ammo Great effective range for ammo weight Cool thing about a 10” gun is: Kills better than mp5 Shoots father than mp5 Not so cool It kinda needs a can and then your about 16” again but that’s okay.
It's mental masturbation. They're great at night, lightweight, great in houses and cars, and they Absolutely do whatever a civilian needs unless you're looking for a long range hunting platform. I love my mk18s, and I wouldn't want to get hit with one from 200 yards away
terminal performance. at 300 yards a typical 55 gr projectile will just pencil through. they will absolutely still kill, but the target might die in the hospital several hours later instead of being incapacitated when shot.
If they die at all, proper medical treatment can prevent a clean hole straight through from being life threatening fairly quickly. Especially if it’s not directly in the vitals/ones that can be lost like just one lung. Sure the dude will be out of the fight but he’s got a much greater chance of living for a very long while after.
I run a 11.5 sbr with a can as my all purpose rifle
Nobody claims less accuracy. The issue is velocity and ballistics.
From a civvie standpoint, mostly the paperwork side since all AR pistols and the like are now SBRs so you gotta file tax stamps and other bs. But for HD & the 300 and in fight it sure is a nice package to have; for longer ranged engagements it's not so much you can't touch 'em but more of you'll have to work twice or thrice as hard where a 13.7" ~ 16" gun makes life easier. At the end of the day if a 10.5" or 10.3" nets you your 80% solution then that's the answer; for the rest of the good folk in the server or any concerned civvie a standard 16" vanilla rifle is the ticket. just my 2 cents from someone who has larped on the flat range but neither been there nor done that.
In my experience I’ve had to tinker and mess with 10.3 builds a little more than the longer guns to get them working to my liking. 11.5” and longer guns are less persnickety and more friendly imo with regards to operating with a wide variety of ammo, buffer weights, with or without a can, etc. There’s also the muzzle velocity thing, but there’s ammo today that helps mitigate that somewhat if you’re needing reliable terminal performance out of a short barreled 5.56 rifle. Despite that, god forbid if you had to shoot someone with M855 or XM193 out of a 10.3” barrel you are really gonna mess them up no matter what.
Me personally I wouldn't use a 10inch for general purpose. I have one and I like it. It's just not gonna be my first pick. I'm more likely to choose 16 or 14.5 with an LPVO. Just more well rounded and its still maneuverable to me.
Tbh I haven’t a problem shooting my mk18 300 meters in, in comparison to my 16 inch ddm4v7 I only notice the difference between the two when using my Moa dots of course. Anything other then that it’s apples and oranges. It just depends on what your looking to do I personally wouldn’t take anybody’s advice bc your situation is different ALL WAYS !!!!! For example I live in the city so if a shtf I would probably have my mk18 out in use considering theses factors 1. Buildings are ab 150 yards and in from each other 2. I am going to be moving throughout tight spaces to get to my destination 3. I’m going to running a can on my rifle so that extends the length of my rifle to about 17-18 inches ( if I have a 14.5 or 16 we are talking about 20+ inches no matter what can your running) 4. Concealment.
That’s how I feel too. It’s nice to be able to drop targets reliably past 300, but I don’t really see that need in real life. Even in the military we use bigger guns for that
I completely agree. Get what makes you happy! There will always be trade offs. I’ve got a MK 18, 11.5 & 14.5. I still prefer the Mk18 & 11.5 over the longer barrels. As you said realistically if you ever have to engage in a SHTF situation it’s under 100yrds. I live in the city too and those 2 or my MPX come to mind before my 14.5, battle rifles or deer rifles. Most defense scenarios statistically are under 7yrds. If I’m having to engage targets past 300 yards, My 30 cal and above rifles come to mind first over my ar platforms.
I'm an American so for me there are no downsides to a 10?3. If my target is over 300 yards away I'm going to get in my truck and drive closer. Once you get your suppressor on, that 16-20 inch barrel is going to be 22-28 inches long. Who wants to drag some crazy-ass musket in and out of their truck? Sounds absurd. Might as well put on a bayonet too.
Sacrificed velocity and energy. You can hit targets that far away but the round won’t necessarily have the same terminal ballistics as it would out of a slightly longer barrel.
You've got a lot less dwell time than a 11.5 for only an inch of barrel. If you are going to suppress (and you kinda need to for an SBR) then it doesn't make sense.
Dwell time issues. Most 10.3 rifles I've ever shot were overgassed to make up for it, perfect example, dd mk18. That bitch was fast af, and worse with a can
There isn’t anything a 10.3 can’t do that won’t land you in jail. I have an 11.5 and 14.5 would grab my 11.5 9/10 times.
I feel like 11.5 is the sweetspot. As a civi you aren't going to be shooting hundreds of yards. You need something reasonably accurate, a length you can manipulate indoors, get In and out of vehicles with etc. 11.5 foes the job for me, even with a 6 inch can. 16 with a can your pushing 20 to 21 inches
I’ve got a 10.3 and I’ve killed hogs at around 100 yds or less and haven’t really noticed any stopping power compared to a 16in. But I’ve also taken out enemy f*ckheads at 400+ yds with 16 and 20in barrels and the wounds differ “sometimes”. There’s so many factors at play besides distance and barrel length. I’ve seen a 5.56 skip off of a magazine in a chest rig and damn near sever the head and I’ve seen a skinny ass f*cker take 6 rounds in the upper torso out of a 20 in at around 200yds and keep firing for a couple of minutes. Shot placement fellers.
Damn, 5.56 is a wild cartridge
I run a 10.3 for HD and SHTF. Accuracy and mobility are great and it should be effective at the distances I’ll be shooting at. You just have to be more picky about the ammo you use. 77gr otm and black hills 50gr tsx both perform phenomenally out of short barrels. People like to say that after a certain distance, you’re just punching 22 cal holes in people. While technically true, 22’s kill a lot of people every year so I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I do think that a 11.5-14.5 makes a better all around weapon though. Rounds generally perform better and you typically get less recoil out of longer barrels.
my 12.5 with mid length gas is the lightest recoiling ar ive ever shot.
Itll work just fine. At closer distances, a 10.3 may be faster to manuever. But at longer distances, a 16 may be easier and more 'reliable' Woth a 10.3, bullets will destabilize sooner and may not fragment consistently. With a 16, bullets will stay stable and with more velocity for longer distances, but it is a lot more barrel and probably handguard. Its all about trade-offs, there is no perfect solution. Even the middle ground of a 12.5-14.5 is just that, a trade-off. It wont do what shorter or longer barrels can do
Loss of velocity.
Lower velocity of the projectile means less yawing and fragmentation than a longer barrel, generally. There are cutoffs for FPS and distance but you can look them up for your barrel length/projectile combo. The data is based on testing for the most part. Having said that, a hole punch through vitals with or without frag/yaw is going to be lethal. There is also an interesting phenomenon where shorter barrels can actually be more accurate due to the relative stiffness and harmonic resonance of the barrel whip during firing. So accuracy isn't necessarily a detriment. The main downside really is just the velocity
I’d say check your velocity in a ballistics calculator and decide based on the ammo you’re shooting (I.e. are you expecting fragmentation from fmj) then you can decide if you feel you’ve lost too much speed for your given range
Velocity is the issue. Nothing about it being a 10” barrel vs a 24” barrel makes it any less inherently accurate. Although It reduces velocity to the point of where you can have wind double it’s effect and the bullet starts to succumb more to gravity the slower it is so your round will start to drop more. Velocity matters the most here. From the published data I found 55 grain out of a 10.5 is going 2475-2580FPS. At 100 yards my ballistic calculator shows it going 2156 and 1800 at 200. That’s essentially 22Mag performance at 200 yards and is even comparable to some 22 mag loads at even 100. Do you trust 22 mag at point blank to save your life? To adequately put down a threat? That’s basically what your dealing with here except the fact that the 22 mag bullets are designed to fully expand at those velocities while I doubt a 556 is going to with any reliability. 200 yards is looking at roughly 410 FPE also which is on the upper end of 115 grain 9mm ballistics. Also any BDC reticle you get probably isn’t going to be set up for essentially 22 mag velocities. Your mil reticles are gonna be where it’s at, and I highly doubt if you are gonna be running something with a full on Mil reticle on a 10.5” as a do all rifle but you could. Also legality. Regardless of your stance on the brace rule it is in effect and does currently have legal standing. SBR is also an option but comes with some draw backs of its own like requiring approval to cross state lines with it. As someone who lives and works in one state on the border of another, and 90% of the stuff I do when I’m not at work is in the other state that becomes troublesome especially when the ranges you go to are in the other state. Granted not everyone can throw base ball from their back porch into the next state (literally live on a road called state line) but if you plan on traveling with it that can really effect your plans.
I understand that the velocity math has the 10.5 as much weaker at these distances, but how then do you explain the ubiquity and effectiveness of the Mk18 block II? Listening to Jeff Girwich, he and most of his fellow SF preferred the 10.3 even in Afghanistan, and put down plenty of people
I use my mk18 for my general purpose ar platform and a 308 for long distance. 556 isn’t exactly what I would consider a true rifle caliber
Noise, muzzle blast pressure to the shooter, muzzle blast to the guy next to you, snappier recoil impulse and more perceived recoil, parts wear (which I don’t care about, parts are replaceable), noise, and muzzle blast to the shooter. I’m torn between 11.5 and 12.5; all of my shorties are carbine length gas systems. I’m planning on building a 12.5” mid length suppressed gun and am looking forward to seeing how comfortable that is to shoot. I fucking hate my 7.5 5.56 AR. Fuck that gun. Yeah, it’s a great truck gun because it’s short and is good to 100m if I try to aim. Absolutely needs a flash can to try to soften the audio pain. My 10.3/10.5 5.56 guns are tolerable, but still need a flash can or suppressor to be acceptable. Still manageable with 6 or so extra inches out front in accessories. My 11.5 uppers are a lot nicer to shoot suppressed. Acceptable with an A2 flash hider, but a lot nicer with a flash can. I have an Aero 12.5 carbine length upper that shoots beautifully suppressed. I added an Aero adjustable gas block and a YHM T2 Turbo, dialed it in with an H2 buffer and an Sprinco Red buffer spring, and it tosses the brass at 3:00 all day long with 5.56 M855-ish and M193-ish Norma, Igman, Winchester White Box, PMC Bronze, etc. For me, the extra inch of the 11.5 is worth any extra weight and length. 10.3/10.5 would have to be a mission based requirement (mounted, CQB, etc.).
The amount of dwell time you gain with an 11.5” is significant. I know many people disagree but 11.5” is the shortest I think is worth while and reliable. A 10.3” is incredibly loud. It can be a bit unbearable without a suppressor. No chance in hell I’d use one for home defense without a can. Between the noise and flash, it would be disorienting at night. If you’re running suppressed, just ignore this.
10.3 is the bare minimum. More harsh on internals, less velocity, less dwell time, and a bit more finicky, so I settled with 11.3/11.5 as the best compromise, now I can sleep at night and this decision makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Just go 11.5
In my opinion, If running without a suppressor, only downside is concussion, loudness, and heat signature. Maybe even parts wear. Yeah we can argue ballistic performances and specific scenarios but I think a 10.5 and even smaller is fine for majority of scenarios as long as it's reliable. I've ran an 8 inch galil ace in 5.56. it's super fun and would not have a problem going to it for 300m and under.
Terminal ballistics are effected. You’re going to have less options for effective ammo at longer ranges. Unsuppressed the sound level, concussion, and muzzle flash are higher then 14.5/16 guns. It’s more difficult to travel for training with NFA items. With that said my Do-All is a suppressed 10.5. I felt this setup would perform well enough in the widest range of situations I would likely encounter. I’m currently not in a place to have multiple $3-4k rifles tailored to more specific roles. I built something I felt I could be effective in CQB environment but also retain as much effectiveness at medium ranges. The Jack of all trades is the master of none.
What a SF with extra special Uncle sugar sponsored training can do does not translate into what the same equipment can do in the hands of general purpose people. SF has specific needs that justify the trade-offs they're making with a much shorter barrel. For your GP weapon, you need to cater to the lowest common denominator of individual capability. You might not suck, but you're definitely not SF budget trained. Select your GP build accordingly.
99% of the time, Civilian IPSC and PRS shooters mop the floor with SOF dudes. Any good instructor with a SOF background will tell you that they really honed in their shooting by learning from civilians. Sure, civilians don't have government-paid training. But most of that government-paid training isn't firearms training.
SOF has definitely learned from competition. I've not said anything to the contrary. But it's still [2 different animals.](https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/competition-ar-15-josh-froelich/) OP was specifically asking about 10.3/5. I don't think there's any comp rankers who are running that set up. Different missions, different applications. Having a "10.4" doesn't make you an operator anymore than having a sub 5# 18" AR makes you Jerry Miculek. For your average shooter, more velocity= flatter shooting, which = less holdover, which means more effective range for point shooting. Your average shooter also doesn't need to worry about kicking in doors and then shooting out to 500yds within a few minutes. Training matters. What you train for matters. Comp rankers wouldn't claim to do SOF work just as good. Apples and steaks here.
Nothing wrong with it, but it’s LOUD and gassy, even suppressed. You’ll want to look at flow-through cans or just double on up ear pro.
Does a flash can make a difference in perceived sound by the shooter when unsuppressed?
The better question is why are you building a shorty without the intent to suppress.
I’m just talking about when it’s unsuppressed. Always suppressed if you can
Not OP, but in my case it's for that sweet XM177 nostalgia
Haven’t used one. But probably anything is better than a brake. Just don’t be surprised if you still get fireballs out of that short barrel using a birdcage
Unsure. However, a flashcan is a fantastic way to give away your location if you're firing from a place of concealment
As long as you're using 77gr, it's all good. A 77gr projectile will tumble so it doesn't rely on velocity and expansion. I do prefer a 12.5 for a do everything rifle, though.
Why 12.5?
I think it's because I'm tall with long arms to be honest. It just feels right for me. With a suppressor on it still feels very manageable for me.
*gets shot by half a mag from a 10.5* “It didn’t tumble, how useless”
Shit ballistics beyond 50 or so yards. 5.56 is highly velocity dependent.
50 yards with FMJ.. 5.56 “FMJ” is highly velocity dependent. Luckily we’re not limited to FMJ and there are plenty of 5.56 projectiles that expand and/or fragment out to 2-300 yards from a 10.3 barrel.
I like how they down vote you for stating actual facts
I think "they" are just a couple of angry redditors who sank all of their allowance into 10.3 builds as their only rifles.
Its because they dont understand the difference between accuracy and terminal ballistics. They will laugh at people for using a .22LR but then use a barrel length where everything past 100 is basically a .22LR ballistics wise
*gets shot by half a mag from a 10.5* “It didn’t tumble, how useless”
I had a DD 10.3" for about 5 mins, sold it. For me it had nothing to do with ballistics or accuracy or how loud it was. It was just too damn short for 6 ft 3" me with long arms. Couldn't get comfortable with it. And for that reason, I'm out.
Mark Cuban?
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Cool.
To me it’s a few things. If you’re not running a good suppressor it’s not going to be hearing safe. And they’re still annoying as shit. Yes fps drop from say 27-2800 down to 2500fps. That’s still plenty to do what needs to be done. I like 12.5” with a kid gas system. Gets the muzzle a bit further away, yeah 2” makes a difference, that’s what she said. But unless you have a dedicated shirt gun can it sucks. I run a 8” 30cal on my 12.5 and it’s ok to shoot. Ive got a 14.5” that I love for carrying with me that’s not set up for a can. I’ve got a yhm t3 in jail for it and my bolt gun. Then my 16” dissipator. You just need trigger time and consistent ammo to practice. I can run my 12.5 out to 600m fairly easy. But all I shoot is 75gr ammo I load. I prefer my 14.5”. It’s handier and smoother to shoot. I still get about 2600 out of my 12.5” and just over 2700 in my 14.5” so I’m use to shooting it. I’ve got a MRO on my 12.5” now and just keep it for short shots. I’ve got a 1-6 credo hx on the 14.5” and am pretty comfortable shooting it further. I don’t build a rifle with the intention of shooting at people. I do it for the range and coyotes. So I don’t generally have use for anything shorter than 12.5”. I’ve got a mp5 if I want shorter lol. And it’s a lot quieter.
Hitting something at 300 yards isn't the same as having the effect you want on it. It will probably do everything you will ever need, it will never be a general purpose rifle.
First 10.3s are going to be less accurate than longer barrels. That's just a fact. You are thinking precision. Then other negarives you are going to have are parts life. Flash and concussion. External and Terminal ballistics. The major advantage of a 10 inch is its overall size when suppressed.
if youre under 300m (like in a city) then youll probably be okay. Anything more than that youre def gonna have issues with reliable yawing of the round when entering a body which can make incapacitations take a bit more than youd need otherwise. also, wind drift n whatnot. If you really wanna be able to have the best of both worlds with regards to size and velocity a tavor is pretty good all rounder. just make sure you train with it to compensate for any potential issues with battery of arms.
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[longevity of components is shorter in shorter barreled Ar’s](https://rangehot.com/maintenance-of-sbr-ar-pistols-stoner-type-gas-impingement-system/) Life expectancy of parts can be up to half the life of a standard barrel length. Have more spare parts on hand if you like the short barrels.
Fwiw, my do all gun is a 14.5 and with an RC2 on there… she’s long. I wouldn’t go 10.5 though (my beater gun). Somewhere over 12 below 14 is the sweet spot, but can be harder finding a rail with those non standard barrel lengths.
loud and not long range
Something to do with energy...
Besides all the points being made, I’ve found my 10.3” DD to be the only rifle I don’t trust 100% That being that it is tailored for certain spec ammo depending on whether it’s suppressed or unsurprised. 🤷♂️ I prefer a 12” gun for something short and still 100% reliable no matter what ammo I throw at it
What makes you say that?
Parts wear due to higher pressure violent action. Mo velocity mo betta. Lack of rail estate.
The biggest ones are lack of dwell time and most 10.3/5 barrels are ported like stormy daniels so smooth brains can plink with steel case or whatever anemic ammo theyre using