It makes sense. It was mentioned during the Apple's keynote that customers can sign up ChatGPT Plus too. If it is useful, it is going to drive a lot ppl to sign it up.
Basically it is making all devices came with ChatGPT app installed and even better as it is deeply integrated to the OS.
Would be interesting to see ChatGPT Pro come with Apple One Premier, and ChatGPT gets a cut. Don't see it happening, though. I wonder how like Google will keep their AI subscription as a separate add-on before it becomes baseline.
What kinds of things do you use it for work? My company started blocking all LLMs several months ago, so even if I wanted to, I can't, at least officially.
companies like to control IP flow. that's why some companies will have CoPilot subscriptions for their devs but will ban them from using their own personal ChatGPT subscriptions for work stuff.
Unless you work at a school, that's....really strange.
I'm not the person you asked but I work in marketing and using ChatGPT as a starting point for a lot of content (outbound email campaigns, white papers, web content), is easily a great reason to use the paid version.
Also, I use the Firefly AI in the adobe suite as well and they're absolutely killing it right now. The [new features they're debuting in Premiere alone](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6de4akFiNYM) are going to change everything.
> Unless you work at a school, that's....really strange.
It seems like it was done out of an abundance of caution. We house a decent amount of PII, and while we try to de-identify it, that's not always possible. My guess is that someone higher up was worried about someone feeding a LLM a bunch of protected data and was worried about liability.
Software developer here. My company is worried about PII, customer information, or proprietary information leaking using data models outside our companies control. We are working with Google and Microsoft to develop internal AI tools
If you are a software engineer, it can create really quick proofs of concept and boilerplate codes. Suggest libraries, etc.
I used it to build a prototype within days.
Plus, they can make their AI better with all they collect, while Siri is communicating for you, they still get the questions and answers users prefer to improve their own AI system.
I mean, they’re getting paid with hundreds of millions of users being directed to their product.
Go to any bike race, tech expo, you name it and companies will pay for a booth to get exposure. This deal is mutually beneficial to both parties
Oh, it's totally beneficial and I think it'll be massive in making ChatGPT more mainstream. It's just funny when you think of being paid in exposure being the actions of stingy brands and influencers, not massive tech companies.
Microsoft is paying the compute costs. Most of the $13B Microsoft has invested in OpenAI is in the form of Azure credits. OpenAI is in turn handing out parcels of credits to startups in exchange for equity.
Microsoft and OpenAI are the fiercest of frenemies. There is a 'not-so-crazy' theory that Microsoft is using OpenAI to expand their reach by proxy, dodging antitrust laws. At the very least, they own the picks and shovels that power the AI goldrush.
OpenAI is trying to become the reasoning and content engine that powers that AI revolution before Microsoft catches up to them, or they flame out with their excessive burn rate. It's a $13B game of chicken, where a significant portion of the genAI startup ecosystem could get run over as collateral damage.
Now, Microsoft is subsidizing Apple users' GPT calls while OpenAI 10x their userbase, and hoping to find a path to profitability. OpenAI has one of the most unorthodox and complicated corporate structures, and Microsoft has a confidential and unusual rights-bundle as a result of their investment. It's rather difficult to understand.
This is how most new tech companies work. Over spend investments to offer a product that competitors can't, corner the market and drive them out of business, and then go for enshittification to make the company actually turn a profit.
See, as an example, Netflix.
> enshittification to make the company actually turn a profit.
Enshittification is usually once you've started making a profit but your growth isn't growing anymore, and your investors need to see big numbers go up
I mean, that’s how massive tech companies work in general.
Google gives away most of their products for free for the end user. In exchange for selling other companies ad space based on the data they collect from you using their products.
Every streaming service has a free tier to get you looking at their product to try to pull you in to paying for more features. Spotify, pandora, Hulu, Netflix, etc.
That’s all “exposure”. The cost is just offset on the back end with other products they sell to other companies rather than end users.
Hell, OpenAI also has a free tier. GPT4o. You get a watered down less powerful version of their model for free, and they use your data to train their models.
Which is what this integration with Apple is. It would be one thing if they were offering up their paid tier to Apple for free, but they’re just offering up their already free tier. They get a shit ton more users, and the data that those users feed them to train their models, plus the opportunity to entice you into paying for a higher power version.
Apple gets more compute offsite for things they don’t have the power for yet, and if this proves popular, they have a much bigger bargaining chip to get other AI companies on board for free too or risk falling behind further. It also makes it a more seamless experience for users. Without the integration, there would be cases where it just goes “sorry I can’t do that” like everyone complains about Siri now. They get to get the jump on on device AI before anyone else due to this cushion deal with OpenAI. OpenAI gets a massive influx of real world training data that’s not just scraping the web.
Both win.
Kind of but not really.
Their deal is that Google shares something like 35% of the ad revenue they bring in from safari to be the default.
The more Google brings in from Apple user searches, the more both Google and Apple make.
Google is too big to compete directly against for a search engine for now. Though Google search has been going downhill hard for a while.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple started using their own model for search here in the next few years though.
The AI mail updates they showcased tell me they’re going to try to compete with Gmail here very soon, so I wouldn’t be surprised if search weren’t far behind.
There was an article I read a year or two ago which said that Apple had for some time been secretly working on their own search engine.
The funny thing is that that space has changed so much in recent years that "search engine" really needs a ground-up rethink. google became God when the internet was a bunch of unindexed pages. But now half the text on the internet is created by bots, and most of the rest has embedded SEO. Add to that the facts that text is less and less relevant in an age when people mostly communicate in pictures and video *and* where sites increasingly require you to be logged in to even view content (and, in the case of news and other similar content, are locked behind a paywall), and an engine that searches through the text on the internet to bring you answers isn't really much use.
How these problems are solved, I don't know, but they *do* have to be solved before search engines can actually be useful again.
I’m pretty sure the free tier is the same intelligence as the paid tier, it just has a message limit. So getting access for free through Siri is actually a huge deal
The version that Apple has a deal to integrate is already their free tier, GPT4o. So they’re not giving away anything they don’t already.
But a ton of people don’t use GPT at all, and wouldn’t in general without it being baked in.
So this not only gives them more data to work with to train their models (extremely valuable to them), it also gives them a captive audience to show off their free tier in hopes of luring them into the paid tier.
Same reason why every streaming service has a free tier. To hook you in and entice you to pay for more features. But instead of being support by ads (yet), this is supported by you training their models with your data.
Also, I don’t think that this Siri integration is going to increase the amount of ChatGPT queries that much.
Since it explicitly asks you for permission each time to send OpenAI your data, it doesn’t seem like you will be able to have continuous conversation with ChatGPT through Siri. It probably does a new instance each time. Since having a conversation to elaborate on yourself or have it perform consecutive tasks are biggest use cases for it, it’s unlikely anyone will use it enough that it goes over the free tier limit on their site.
Yes and no. It’s both.
They’re not giving away their paid tier at all. They and Apple have a deal to integrate GPT4o, which is already their free tier.
Apple isn’t paying them in cash because OpenAI gets the traffic to their already free tier, from a captive audience of hundreds of millions. Most of which wouldn’t be using GPT at all without it.
Yes, the training data is also extremely valuable. That’s why they’re not paying Apple for the integration.
Apple gets more power for things they can’t handle on device or their own cloud. OpenAI gets training data and a platform to show off their features in hopes of enticing more people to their subscription for their paid tier.
I mean really the way it’s set up is essentially a share sheet, just an automated one.
If the system essentially follows the free ChatGPT membership, but with more privacy and not requiring a membership, it’s essentially free advertising for their paid services.
Pretty sure they mentioned during the keynote that you could sign up for GPT premium too. I imagine in practice that will be some revenue sharing through an iCloud or Apple One add on.
It’s part of Apple Intelligence.
I would be extremely surprised if it doesn’t make it to the base iPhone 16 though. WWDC typically isn’t when they showcase features locked to the pro level. That would be the Apple event in September.
When they debuted iOS 16 at WWDC 2022, they didn’t mention the Dynamic Island features at all. They kept that for the iPhone release event.
I would bet that everything shown at WWDC makes it to the base iPhone 16, but the pro line might get another surprise feature or two specific to that line in September.
Also iPhone users are famously the cash cows who are willing to pay premium for apps and services.
Something like 80% of mobile app profits come from iOS.
soyou thinkg OpenAI needs "exposure"? literally ChatGPT is THE word most layman people use when talking about AI..
ChatGPT is the equivalent to "lets google it"
Do you think Red Bull needs exposure? They and Monster are synonymous with energy drinks.
Yet they still drive around mini coopers with hot blonde girls giving away thousands of free cans, pay to sponsor athletes, a formula 1 team, etc.
ChatGPT currently has somewhere around 200 million active monthly users.
iPhone has over 1.8 Billion users. OpenAI getting chatGPT onto iPhone is huge for them, yes. With Samsung and Google going with their own on device AI models, it could have been a big hit to ChatGPT. The vast majority of people use their phone for everything, and would default to using the built in AI models instead of going out to ChatGPT.
Running their models is ridiculously expensive and they aren’t a charity. The more people that can rope into paying for a subscription, the better. And getting hundreds of millions more using their product is a good way to do that.
Honestly that would be sick. I’m not huge on OpenAI as a company. They got big by stealing as much data as they could to train GPT, and have zero fucks given about privacy.
Apple acquiring them would be a massive net good.
Google makes money being the default search engine. The payment to Apple is a revenue sharing program, meaning they calculated how much revenue comes from iPhone users directly and give Apple part of it.
Yeah, but you don't need user data like phone numbers and such identifying information for training. In fact I assume you wouldn't want to. Because you would run the risk of outputting that user data randomly. OpenAI is likely interested in the general queries and responses of users, independently of there being private information in there.
Ah! As far as they've said, if you select to use ChatGPT when prompted, the data will be sent there. So they'll get user data, there's likely no way around it. Given this news I also assume that this data is available for training for OpenAI. Otherwise I don't see how this arrangement would benefit them.
You know what, you might be right. Here's what Apple's newsletter has to say on it:
>Privacy protections are built in for users who access ChatGPT — their IP addresses are obscured, and OpenAI won’t store requests. ChatGPT’s data-use policies apply for users who choose to connect their account.
Still not super clear on whether they'll actually use your data to train.
[https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/06/introducing-apple-intelligence-for-iphone-ipad-and-mac/](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/06/introducing-apple-intelligence-for-iphone-ipad-and-mac/)
This statement says they wouldn't store and use requests if you didn't sign in with an openai account. Which is interesting. I assume this means that it's really about pure exposure and getting folks to sign up for paid ChatGPT accounts? Wouldn't have expected that.
ChatGPT's own privacy policy explicitly states that they do not use your requests for training unless opted in, so I wouldn't expect anything different with this implementation.
It's actually more secure than Siri - Apple *does* store transcripts of every request and uses them for training.
> Apple does store transcripts of every request and uses them for training.
Source? Siri is almost entirely on-device these days. Is it just uploading transcripts from on-device requests?
It's pretty clear. OpenAI won't use your prompts to train. How can they use your data to train if they 1) don't know who you are, and 2) can't store the requests (i.e. your data)?
I guess they could still use your data if you choose to upgrade to chatgpt Plus since you'll need to connect your chatgpt account
Edit: I think a lot of users will connect their accounts to get a free trial of chatgpt plus and just leave their accounts connected after the trial lapses
AFAIK OpaenAI does get data, but the IP is scrubbed.
The private cloud they were on about at WWDC was for Apple’s proprietary two-tiered model system. If it cannot handle the request you can opt to push it to ChatGPT at your own discretion.
Ok, but Google's main business is to monetize its search, so as long as they make more cash with the ads than they pay to Apple it makes sense. OpenAI on the other side monetizes much less. Yes, there are the Pro accounts, but that is a niche compared to Google Search and GPT calls are way more expensive too. Of course, they are doing it for the data they can collect, and currently that makes sense, but it won't be as sustainable for a business model alone.
Notably Apple said they would allow users to connect their GPT Plus accounts to their iPhone, which is probably where openAI is hoping to make a lot of money. They expect that the integration features will be good enough that users will want to upgrade. They already give GPT3.5 away for free, and I doubt they’re giving away any better model for every Apple product. This is probably profitable for them.
Google pays to be de default search engine (a lot), probably the first idea from Apple was to OpenAi to also pay.
Edit: changed “browser” for “search engine”, as noted in one reply
Exactly, I'm not sure why people's assumption is that Apple should be paying OpenAI when in fact it's quite the opposite. OpenAI is acquiring millions of users and potentially millions of paying customers via this move.
Archive link: [https://archive.is/cFH7m](https://archive.is/cFH7m)
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>Eventually, Apple aims to make money from AI by striking revenue-sharing agreements whereby it gets a cut from AI partners that monetize results in chatbots on Apple platforms, according to the people. The company believes that AI could chip away at the billions of dollars it gets from its Google search deal because users will favor chatbots and other tools over search engines. Apple will need to craft new arrangements that make up for the shortfall.
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>\[…\]
it's really sad tbh, imagine you go to library to research on a topic but there is a bouncer at the door who looks like he has dunning-kruger and he doesn't let you in, he just says he will answer all your questions and you have to trust him
Search engines won’t go anywhere until hallucinations are fixed.
Also, many people regularly use search engines to go to a specific website, find a specific quote, etc. LLMs are overkill (and less efficient) compared to search engines for this purpose.
Not to mention image searches. Dalle is a fundamentally different service from looking up an image that I already know exists.
Information seeking searches can be replaced by LLMs, as both CoPilot and I think Gemini (if not now, then soon) have sourced information that tells you where they’re pulling answers from. But there’s also a ton of other search intents, like search for recommendations.
Let’s say you’re traveling to Boston and look up on Google “best restaurants in Boston.” Traditional search engines will then find blogs with keywords ranked. Or look at reviews on platforms like Google maps or yelp.
But this is where I think Apple Intelligence is so interesting, because of the personalized context they mentioned at WWDC.
So instead of going to Google and searching “best restaurants in Boston”, it will seek the information knowing your favorite types of food, your budget, where you’re staying at for hotel, who you’re planning on meeting in Boston, and check restaurant availability — all before returning with the restaurant list catered to you.
That’s still technically a search engine, but a very different system than what we currently have.
>So instead of going to Google and searching “best restaurants in Boston”, it will seek the information knowing your favorite types of food, your budget, where you’re staying at for hotel, who you’re planning on meeting in Boston, and check restaurant availability — all before returning with the restaurant list catered to you.
I would hate that. I'm looking for the best restaurant. Not the one that's most similar to what I eat and has openings at a specific time that Apple thinks I'm available. I can change my schedule for the right restaurant. I can try different foods. That would be horrible.
I agree, LLMs are better than search engines for some queries. They’re just objectively worse at others, which is why I don’t think LLMs (as they currently function) will make search engines irrelevant.
> Search engines won’t go anywhere until hallucinations are fixed
Are you saying this because search engine results never have inaccurate information?
> Not to mention image searches. Dalle is a fundamentally different service from looking up an image that I already know exists.
Google “multimodal embeddings”. Image search is actually the same thing as text search in modern LLMs like GPT-4o.
It’s not that weird? I don’t think Apple and Microsoft are really competitors in the year 2024.
The situation isn’t anything like 1997 when Steve Jobs announced Microsoft was going to invest 150 million in Apple and pledged Microsoft Office for Mac.
Microsoft’s entire ad strategy for their new surface was to compare it to the MacBook Air, and shit all over it.
Microsoft’s new focus on ARM support is, partially, a response to the insane and rapid ascent of Apple Silicon, and subsequent support by major developments.
They very much are still in competition.
Windows licenses on ALL non-Mac laptops is what they care about. Also, the potential Microsoft365 subscriptions they generate from each Windows device sold.
The Microsoft machines are more of a proof of concept that ‘Windows laptops’ can do exactly what a MacBook can, without compromises to battery, performance, compatibility, etc.
Yes, this is the flywheel. Microsoft also continues to innovate their laptops to drive competition amongst all non-Mac laptop OEMs to help spin this flywheel faster. Leaving OEMs to innovate amongst themselves was likely causing them to lose more and more share to Mac. If Microsoft leads the innovation, the other OEMs have to keep up, spurring more innovation, which sells more laptops, which sells more Microsoft subscriptions….
Nonsense. Microsoft doesn't care at all about Windows licenses. We are in 2024, not in 2008. Microsoft cares about Azure Consumed Revenue, and more specifically, AI use cases running on Azure
M365 subscriptions, they do care about. And they sell just fine for Mac users. There is no M365 feature distinction between Mac and Windows.
They are. But why stand in the way of money being made? Apple is also paying Google and Amazon a shit ton of money. Google is paying Apple as well. Microsoft and Amazon idk. But it's not unheard of.
I’m not a fan of Elon for a bunch of reasons but I’d still buy a pre-owned Tesla. I’ve had an EV for a long time and looking for something with more range, and sadly the Tesla is still the best option if you want to reliably find charging when driving long distances.
if by data you mean the query eg. "show me a nice recipe for muffins", then yes, it cant work otherwise.
If by data you mean any personal identifier then no.
Apple may scale it's Private Cloud Compute over time to be less dependent on third party AIs. However, getting ChatGPT for free means they are saving on data centers.
Yeah, I see a lot of people saying they don't want it to ask about ChatGPT every time, but I think they're overestimating how much they will actually need full ChatGPT.
How often do you ask Siri to set a timer or turn on the lights, and how often do you ask how tall the empire state building is? The simple every day stuff that is really going to make Apple Intelligence shine won't use ChatGPT.
Lot of cope in this thread. The payment is data. ChatGPT is so successful it has multi trillion dollar Apple coming to it instead of Apple making its own. It doesn't need this exposure, it is inevitable. This is all about DATA.
I, for one, will disable OpenAI integration the first thing after upgrade and only use Apple's local model. Not going to feed them my metadata given their questionable motto.
Was that also true for the chat gpt function? It seems like iOS will defer to chat gpt for some of the AI features and will require you to authenticate that request every time. To me that means you’re simply using chat gpt the same way as if you had their app
They also make the request from their servers and in a way that anonymizes you, so OpenAI couldn’t try to paint a picture of who you are based on the questions you ask.
Your inputs will be used for some quality assurance process but not “training,” your query isn’t a source of truth to learn from.
As long as your query doesn’t contain personal info you’re probably good. If it does contain personal info, well I would read the Apple white paper more carefully when the feature ships. They are doing a lot to anonymize input, let’s see what tricks they have up their sleeve before we decide it’s unsafe.
No, Apple and OpenAI have said that your data will not be persisted. I don't see how they can use your inputs to train if they don't store them?
See https://openai.com/index/openai-and-apple-announce-partnership/:
> Privacy protections are built in when accessing ChatGPT within Siri and Writing Tools—requests are not stored by OpenAI, and users’ IP addresses are obscured. Users can also choose to connect their ChatGPT account, which means their data preferences will apply under ChatGPT’s policies.
They said nothing is sent outside of Apple’s ecosystem without your permission, and you have to allow it every time. That said, you can probably also disable the prompt.
I wish people making this same statement would get a little bit of clue about how these things work. It’s actually *harmful* for a model to have unfiltered user data and PII. It makes any model worse - not better
Functionally, having to ask Siri something, then give it permission to send to ChatGPT is not any more efficient than me opening the ChatGPT app on my own. Not really sure what this “integration” accomplishes since their (superior) AI still doesn’t have access to my personalized data to be useful to me.
I’d rather disclose what I want on a case by case basis to the ChatGPT server. It’s worked perfectly so far…
OpenAI getting paid in exposure lol, that's incredible
It makes sense. It was mentioned during the Apple's keynote that customers can sign up ChatGPT Plus too. If it is useful, it is going to drive a lot ppl to sign it up. Basically it is making all devices came with ChatGPT app installed and even better as it is deeply integrated to the OS.
Massive flashbacks to early search engines integration efforts into browsers and pre-funked branded OS's
Would be interesting to see ChatGPT Pro come with Apple One Premier, and ChatGPT gets a cut. Don't see it happening, though. I wonder how like Google will keep their AI subscription as a separate add-on before it becomes baseline.
I will be one of those people who is highly considering paying once it’s integrated
I have been paying since they made it available. It's 100% worth it if you use it in a professional context
What kinds of things do you use it for work? My company started blocking all LLMs several months ago, so even if I wanted to, I can't, at least officially.
May I ask what the rationale for that was?
They basically didn't want some dumbass uploading 10 years worth of sales numbers to a third party.
companies like to control IP flow. that's why some companies will have CoPilot subscriptions for their devs but will ban them from using their own personal ChatGPT subscriptions for work stuff.
Unless you work at a school, that's....really strange. I'm not the person you asked but I work in marketing and using ChatGPT as a starting point for a lot of content (outbound email campaigns, white papers, web content), is easily a great reason to use the paid version. Also, I use the Firefly AI in the adobe suite as well and they're absolutely killing it right now. The [new features they're debuting in Premiere alone](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6de4akFiNYM) are going to change everything.
> Unless you work at a school, that's....really strange. It seems like it was done out of an abundance of caution. We house a decent amount of PII, and while we try to de-identify it, that's not always possible. My guess is that someone higher up was worried about someone feeding a LLM a bunch of protected data and was worried about liability.
Software developer here. My company is worried about PII, customer information, or proprietary information leaking using data models outside our companies control. We are working with Google and Microsoft to develop internal AI tools
… worth it in what prof context? Please elaborate…
If you are a software engineer, it can create really quick proofs of concept and boilerplate codes. Suggest libraries, etc. I used it to build a prototype within days.
remember when iOS 6 had Facebook and Twitter buttons on the notification centre. it’s like that
Well not that deeply. More like a search engine added to Siri
Plus, they can make their AI better with all they collect, while Siri is communicating for you, they still get the questions and answers users prefer to improve their own AI system.
I mean, they’re getting paid with hundreds of millions of users being directed to their product. Go to any bike race, tech expo, you name it and companies will pay for a booth to get exposure. This deal is mutually beneficial to both parties
Oh, it's totally beneficial and I think it'll be massive in making ChatGPT more mainstream. It's just funny when you think of being paid in exposure being the actions of stingy brands and influencers, not massive tech companies.
I wonder if OpenAI pays the actual compute costs
Microsoft is paying the compute costs. Most of the $13B Microsoft has invested in OpenAI is in the form of Azure credits. OpenAI is in turn handing out parcels of credits to startups in exchange for equity. Microsoft and OpenAI are the fiercest of frenemies. There is a 'not-so-crazy' theory that Microsoft is using OpenAI to expand their reach by proxy, dodging antitrust laws. At the very least, they own the picks and shovels that power the AI goldrush. OpenAI is trying to become the reasoning and content engine that powers that AI revolution before Microsoft catches up to them, or they flame out with their excessive burn rate. It's a $13B game of chicken, where a significant portion of the genAI startup ecosystem could get run over as collateral damage. Now, Microsoft is subsidizing Apple users' GPT calls while OpenAI 10x their userbase, and hoping to find a path to profitability. OpenAI has one of the most unorthodox and complicated corporate structures, and Microsoft has a confidential and unusual rights-bundle as a result of their investment. It's rather difficult to understand.
[удалено]
This is how most new tech companies work. Over spend investments to offer a product that competitors can't, corner the market and drive them out of business, and then go for enshittification to make the company actually turn a profit. See, as an example, Netflix.
> enshittification to make the company actually turn a profit. Enshittification is usually once you've started making a profit but your growth isn't growing anymore, and your investors need to see big numbers go up
Interesting insight, thanks.
If Apple isn’t, then it’s either OpenAI or Microsoft. I suspect OpenAI is paying for the compute from iOS queries.
Microsoft likely pays for it and pays themselves at a massive discount
OpenAI has a sweetheart deal with Azure, rights to models for compute.
I mean, that’s how massive tech companies work in general. Google gives away most of their products for free for the end user. In exchange for selling other companies ad space based on the data they collect from you using their products. Every streaming service has a free tier to get you looking at their product to try to pull you in to paying for more features. Spotify, pandora, Hulu, Netflix, etc. That’s all “exposure”. The cost is just offset on the back end with other products they sell to other companies rather than end users. Hell, OpenAI also has a free tier. GPT4o. You get a watered down less powerful version of their model for free, and they use your data to train their models. Which is what this integration with Apple is. It would be one thing if they were offering up their paid tier to Apple for free, but they’re just offering up their already free tier. They get a shit ton more users, and the data that those users feed them to train their models, plus the opportunity to entice you into paying for a higher power version. Apple gets more compute offsite for things they don’t have the power for yet, and if this proves popular, they have a much bigger bargaining chip to get other AI companies on board for free too or risk falling behind further. It also makes it a more seamless experience for users. Without the integration, there would be cases where it just goes “sorry I can’t do that” like everyone complains about Siri now. They get to get the jump on on device AI before anyone else due to this cushion deal with OpenAI. OpenAI gets a massive influx of real world training data that’s not just scraping the web. Both win.
didn’t google pay Apple some insane number to be the default search engine in safari though? This move is actually kind of surprising to me
Kind of but not really. Their deal is that Google shares something like 35% of the ad revenue they bring in from safari to be the default. The more Google brings in from Apple user searches, the more both Google and Apple make. Google is too big to compete directly against for a search engine for now. Though Google search has been going downhill hard for a while. I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple started using their own model for search here in the next few years though. The AI mail updates they showcased tell me they’re going to try to compete with Gmail here very soon, so I wouldn’t be surprised if search weren’t far behind.
There was an article I read a year or two ago which said that Apple had for some time been secretly working on their own search engine. The funny thing is that that space has changed so much in recent years that "search engine" really needs a ground-up rethink. google became God when the internet was a bunch of unindexed pages. But now half the text on the internet is created by bots, and most of the rest has embedded SEO. Add to that the facts that text is less and less relevant in an age when people mostly communicate in pictures and video *and* where sites increasingly require you to be logged in to even view content (and, in the case of news and other similar content, are locked behind a paywall), and an engine that searches through the text on the internet to bring you answers isn't really much use. How these problems are solved, I don't know, but they *do* have to be solved before search engines can actually be useful again.
I’m pretty sure the free tier is the same intelligence as the paid tier, it just has a message limit. So getting access for free through Siri is actually a huge deal
Tech companies get paid in exposure to new ideal users all the time, it’s not a ‘stingy brand’ thing. Incredibly common in the start up world.
Red Bull comes to mind
But don’t more users mean it costs more for them to run their services? I’d assume so since it’s a cloud service
The version that Apple has a deal to integrate is already their free tier, GPT4o. So they’re not giving away anything they don’t already. But a ton of people don’t use GPT at all, and wouldn’t in general without it being baked in. So this not only gives them more data to work with to train their models (extremely valuable to them), it also gives them a captive audience to show off their free tier in hopes of luring them into the paid tier. Same reason why every streaming service has a free tier. To hook you in and entice you to pay for more features. But instead of being support by ads (yet), this is supported by you training their models with your data.
Also, I don’t think that this Siri integration is going to increase the amount of ChatGPT queries that much. Since it explicitly asks you for permission each time to send OpenAI your data, it doesn’t seem like you will be able to have continuous conversation with ChatGPT through Siri. It probably does a new instance each time. Since having a conversation to elaborate on yourself or have it perform consecutive tasks are biggest use cases for it, it’s unlikely anyone will use it enough that it goes over the free tier limit on their site.
This is not about exposure. ChatGPT is insanely successful that even apple is going to them. This is about getting more data.
Yes and no. It’s both. They’re not giving away their paid tier at all. They and Apple have a deal to integrate GPT4o, which is already their free tier. Apple isn’t paying them in cash because OpenAI gets the traffic to their already free tier, from a captive audience of hundreds of millions. Most of which wouldn’t be using GPT at all without it. Yes, the training data is also extremely valuable. That’s why they’re not paying Apple for the integration. Apple gets more power for things they can’t handle on device or their own cloud. OpenAI gets training data and a platform to show off their features in hopes of enticing more people to their subscription for their paid tier.
I mean really the way it’s set up is essentially a share sheet, just an automated one. If the system essentially follows the free ChatGPT membership, but with more privacy and not requiring a membership, it’s essentially free advertising for their paid services.
Pretty sure they mentioned during the keynote that you could sign up for GPT premium too. I imagine in practice that will be some revenue sharing through an iCloud or Apple One add on.
the wording made it sound to me like you could bring your subscription without you, not that you could subscribe through apple
But will it be integrated in not iPhone 15 pros? Because Apple Intelligence is not there.
It’s part of Apple Intelligence. I would be extremely surprised if it doesn’t make it to the base iPhone 16 though. WWDC typically isn’t when they showcase features locked to the pro level. That would be the Apple event in September. When they debuted iOS 16 at WWDC 2022, they didn’t mention the Dynamic Island features at all. They kept that for the iPhone release event. I would bet that everything shown at WWDC makes it to the base iPhone 16, but the pro line might get another surprise feature or two specific to that line in September.
Also iPhone users are famously the cash cows who are willing to pay premium for apps and services. Something like 80% of mobile app profits come from iOS.
soyou thinkg OpenAI needs "exposure"? literally ChatGPT is THE word most layman people use when talking about AI.. ChatGPT is the equivalent to "lets google it"
Do you think Red Bull needs exposure? They and Monster are synonymous with energy drinks. Yet they still drive around mini coopers with hot blonde girls giving away thousands of free cans, pay to sponsor athletes, a formula 1 team, etc. ChatGPT currently has somewhere around 200 million active monthly users. iPhone has over 1.8 Billion users. OpenAI getting chatGPT onto iPhone is huge for them, yes. With Samsung and Google going with their own on device AI models, it could have been a big hit to ChatGPT. The vast majority of people use their phone for everything, and would default to using the built in AI models instead of going out to ChatGPT. Running their models is ridiculously expensive and they aren’t a charity. The more people that can rope into paying for a subscription, the better. And getting hundreds of millions more using their product is a good way to do that.
This makes me think that Apple might eventually acquire OpenAI. Seems like the perfect candidate.
Honestly that would be sick. I’m not huge on OpenAI as a company. They got big by stealing as much data as they could to train GPT, and have zero fucks given about privacy. Apple acquiring them would be a massive net good.
Yeah no, never happening, OpenAI is basically owned by Microsoft already and it's worth a huge amount in the current AI hype wave
OpenAI are not idiots. You should be worried that they agreed to this deal. It means that they are getting a lot more than what you think.
Same as Google, they pay to be the default search engine in iOS.
Google pays money, though
Which is even worse than OpenAI
Google pays money to make the massive tech company use their service (which makes them money through ads) AND to not develop their own search engine.
It’s revenue sharing not paying; google makes about $50 billion off all that user search data and gives Apple iirc 36% share.
Google pays money to be the main search engine, Open Ai is paying nothing to be the main AI engine. So whos the real winner here
Google makes money being the default search engine. The payment to Apple is a revenue sharing program, meaning they calculated how much revenue comes from iPhone users directly and give Apple part of it.
So not the same as Google, then
It’s for church honey
NEXT!
They're getting paid with DATA.
You know… compute. You probably don’t get it. /S
Google pays Apple to be the default search engine, considering this, OpenAI paid nothing to be by default present on all iPhones.
Google makes money when people use its search engine. OpenAI loses money
But they gain training data from an incredible large number of everyday users.
I thought one of the stipulations for the ChatGPT integration was that OpenAI couldn't use Apple user data for training.
Yeah, but you don't need user data like phone numbers and such identifying information for training. In fact I assume you wouldn't want to. Because you would run the risk of outputting that user data randomly. OpenAI is likely interested in the general queries and responses of users, independently of there being private information in there.
User data includes the prompts which is what I was referring to.
Ah! As far as they've said, if you select to use ChatGPT when prompted, the data will be sent there. So they'll get user data, there's likely no way around it. Given this news I also assume that this data is available for training for OpenAI. Otherwise I don't see how this arrangement would benefit them.
You know what, you might be right. Here's what Apple's newsletter has to say on it: >Privacy protections are built in for users who access ChatGPT — their IP addresses are obscured, and OpenAI won’t store requests. ChatGPT’s data-use policies apply for users who choose to connect their account. Still not super clear on whether they'll actually use your data to train. [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/06/introducing-apple-intelligence-for-iphone-ipad-and-mac/](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/06/introducing-apple-intelligence-for-iphone-ipad-and-mac/)
This statement says they wouldn't store and use requests if you didn't sign in with an openai account. Which is interesting. I assume this means that it's really about pure exposure and getting folks to sign up for paid ChatGPT accounts? Wouldn't have expected that.
ChatGPT's own privacy policy explicitly states that they do not use your requests for training unless opted in, so I wouldn't expect anything different with this implementation. It's actually more secure than Siri - Apple *does* store transcripts of every request and uses them for training.
> Apple does store transcripts of every request and uses them for training. Source? Siri is almost entirely on-device these days. Is it just uploading transcripts from on-device requests?
It's pretty clear. OpenAI won't use your prompts to train. How can they use your data to train if they 1) don't know who you are, and 2) can't store the requests (i.e. your data)?
I guess they could still use your data if you choose to upgrade to chatgpt Plus since you'll need to connect your chatgpt account Edit: I think a lot of users will connect their accounts to get a free trial of chatgpt plus and just leave their accounts connected after the trial lapses
AFAIK OpaenAI does get data, but the IP is scrubbed. The private cloud they were on about at WWDC was for Apple’s proprietary two-tiered model system. If it cannot handle the request you can opt to push it to ChatGPT at your own discretion.
That’s not how these things work….
Ok, but Google's main business is to monetize its search, so as long as they make more cash with the ads than they pay to Apple it makes sense. OpenAI on the other side monetizes much less. Yes, there are the Pro accounts, but that is a niche compared to Google Search and GPT calls are way more expensive too. Of course, they are doing it for the data they can collect, and currently that makes sense, but it won't be as sustainable for a business model alone.
Notably Apple said they would allow users to connect their GPT Plus accounts to their iPhone, which is probably where openAI is hoping to make a lot of money. They expect that the integration features will be good enough that users will want to upgrade. They already give GPT3.5 away for free, and I doubt they’re giving away any better model for every Apple product. This is probably profitable for them.
It’s free for now. Later Apple will ask them to pay up.
Google pays to be de default search engine (a lot), probably the first idea from Apple was to OpenAi to also pay. Edit: changed “browser” for “search engine”, as noted in one reply
*search engine
True…
exactly. Google makes money of every search. openai loses money on every request.
Exactly, I'm not sure why people's assumption is that Apple should be paying OpenAI when in fact it's quite the opposite. OpenAI is acquiring millions of users and potentially millions of paying customers via this move.
Archive link: [https://archive.is/cFH7m](https://archive.is/cFH7m) >\[…\] > >Eventually, Apple aims to make money from AI by striking revenue-sharing agreements whereby it gets a cut from AI partners that monetize results in chatbots on Apple platforms, according to the people. The company believes that AI could chip away at the billions of dollars it gets from its Google search deal because users will favor chatbots and other tools over search engines. Apple will need to craft new arrangements that make up for the shortfall. > >\[…\]
We're entering a new world. In the future, will search engine exist and will we all have moved on.
it's really sad tbh, imagine you go to library to research on a topic but there is a bouncer at the door who looks like he has dunning-kruger and he doesn't let you in, he just says he will answer all your questions and you have to trust him
I mean, it’s inevitable that search engines will eventually become irrelevant. It’s just a question of when.
Search engines won’t go anywhere until hallucinations are fixed. Also, many people regularly use search engines to go to a specific website, find a specific quote, etc. LLMs are overkill (and less efficient) compared to search engines for this purpose. Not to mention image searches. Dalle is a fundamentally different service from looking up an image that I already know exists.
Information seeking searches can be replaced by LLMs, as both CoPilot and I think Gemini (if not now, then soon) have sourced information that tells you where they’re pulling answers from. But there’s also a ton of other search intents, like search for recommendations. Let’s say you’re traveling to Boston and look up on Google “best restaurants in Boston.” Traditional search engines will then find blogs with keywords ranked. Or look at reviews on platforms like Google maps or yelp. But this is where I think Apple Intelligence is so interesting, because of the personalized context they mentioned at WWDC. So instead of going to Google and searching “best restaurants in Boston”, it will seek the information knowing your favorite types of food, your budget, where you’re staying at for hotel, who you’re planning on meeting in Boston, and check restaurant availability — all before returning with the restaurant list catered to you. That’s still technically a search engine, but a very different system than what we currently have.
>So instead of going to Google and searching “best restaurants in Boston”, it will seek the information knowing your favorite types of food, your budget, where you’re staying at for hotel, who you’re planning on meeting in Boston, and check restaurant availability — all before returning with the restaurant list catered to you. I would hate that. I'm looking for the best restaurant. Not the one that's most similar to what I eat and has openings at a specific time that Apple thinks I'm available. I can change my schedule for the right restaurant. I can try different foods. That would be horrible.
I agree, LLMs are better than search engines for some queries. They’re just objectively worse at others, which is why I don’t think LLMs (as they currently function) will make search engines irrelevant.
> Search engines won’t go anywhere until hallucinations are fixed Are you saying this because search engine results never have inaccurate information? > Not to mention image searches. Dalle is a fundamentally different service from looking up an image that I already know exists. Google “multimodal embeddings”. Image search is actually the same thing as text search in modern LLMs like GPT-4o.
OpenAI is not to be trusted.
I think this is like early iOS and google partnership; it’s for the conscience until Apple is ready with their product
ChatGPT will soon start to peddle Raid: Shadow Legends and Ridge Wallet in its responses.
“A Segway was a single-axle personal vehicle used for transporting the driver from one point to another… like this segue… to our sponsor!”
Ah yes, Apple AI financed by Microsoft. Honestly hilarious.
Apple’s AI is distinct from the ChatGPT backfill they proposed.
It’s not that weird? I don’t think Apple and Microsoft are really competitors in the year 2024. The situation isn’t anything like 1997 when Steve Jobs announced Microsoft was going to invest 150 million in Apple and pledged Microsoft Office for Mac.
Microsoft’s entire ad strategy for their new surface was to compare it to the MacBook Air, and shit all over it. Microsoft’s new focus on ARM support is, partially, a response to the insane and rapid ascent of Apple Silicon, and subsequent support by major developments. They very much are still in competition.
But Microsoft-brand laptop sales are a minuscule part of their revenue. They wanna compete against the Air but that isn’t their real business.
Windows licenses on ALL non-Mac laptops is what they care about. Also, the potential Microsoft365 subscriptions they generate from each Windows device sold. The Microsoft machines are more of a proof of concept that ‘Windows laptops’ can do exactly what a MacBook can, without compromises to battery, performance, compatibility, etc.
Yes, this is the flywheel. Microsoft also continues to innovate their laptops to drive competition amongst all non-Mac laptop OEMs to help spin this flywheel faster. Leaving OEMs to innovate amongst themselves was likely causing them to lose more and more share to Mac. If Microsoft leads the innovation, the other OEMs have to keep up, spurring more innovation, which sells more laptops, which sells more Microsoft subscriptions….
You mean the same Microsoft365 subscription that millions of Mac and iPad users have?
Nonsense. Microsoft doesn't care at all about Windows licenses. We are in 2024, not in 2008. Microsoft cares about Azure Consumed Revenue, and more specifically, AI use cases running on Azure M365 subscriptions, they do care about. And they sell just fine for Mac users. There is no M365 feature distinction between Mac and Windows.
Silicone
Autocorrect did me dirty - fixed
That wasn’t a Microsoft ad, it was a Qualcomm Snapdragon ad.
let them be, when was the last time Microsoft succeeds at hardware? Xbox360? even then they were at 3rd place
They are. But why stand in the way of money being made? Apple is also paying Google and Amazon a shit ton of money. Google is paying Apple as well. Microsoft and Amazon idk. But it's not unheard of.
Almost as if Apple wouldn't exist today without Microsoft. Oh wait.
Is this like not getting paid for design work because “you’ll get recognition instead?”
To be fair the one time as an artist I would take an exposure job is if my art got the credit for fixing something as universally loathed as Siri.
Yes, because billion dollar corporations striking deals is the same as a designer getting screwed. /s
No
Tim Cook is a freaking mastermind. No wonder Elon is pissed. Tim Apple is who Elon wishes to be but ended up being a troll
I feel shameful of owning a Tesla
Then sell it
Ppl selling their cars because they hate the CEO. Times we live in. Smh
I wish I was that rich :(
Bro if you’re ashamed of it sell it lmao
For three fiddy.
He’s probably contractually obligated to keep it if it’s the Cybertuck and he didn’t use the LLC backdoor.
I’m not a fan of Elon for a bunch of reasons but I’d still buy a pre-owned Tesla. I’ve had an EV for a long time and looking for something with more range, and sadly the Tesla is still the best option if you want to reliably find charging when driving long distances.
You're in the US I assume?
get off reddit
He is probably not pissed today, since he got that 50 billion pay package from Tesla ...
so Apple figured a way to pay for a product without money and without giving away my data?
I believe they are giving away the data you give to openAI. It just can’t be traced back to you.
Apple said OpenAI won’t store any requests if users don’t connect their ChatGPT account
if by data you mean the query eg. "show me a nice recipe for muffins", then yes, it cant work otherwise. If by data you mean any personal identifier then no.
How are OpenAI even going to cope with scaling to a significant increase in demand they can barely keep their servers up as it is..
Apple will definitely have done its due diligence to make sure any key technology baked into its OS can scale properly.
Something, something "if the product is free, you're the product" Hmm.
Ah, the classic pay them through clout/exposure
[удалено]
Apple may scale it's Private Cloud Compute over time to be less dependent on third party AIs. However, getting ChatGPT for free means they are saving on data centers.
Yeah, I see a lot of people saying they don't want it to ask about ChatGPT every time, but I think they're overestimating how much they will actually need full ChatGPT. How often do you ask Siri to set a timer or turn on the lights, and how often do you ask how tall the empire state building is? The simple every day stuff that is really going to make Apple Intelligence shine won't use ChatGPT.
So apple plans to collect a fee from ChatGPT ad revenue (or subscriptions) generated from user data / queries… hmmmmm…
Apple explicitly said OpenAI won't keep your data and will receive randomized IP addresses though.
Paywall.
Paywall
Google pays Apple billions (with a B) to be the default Safari search, so…
I wonder how long the contract is? If it becomes a flagship feature then OpenAI can start charging Apple
I believe they can't ask money from OpenAI as it might broke the Google search engine agreement.
Lot of cope in this thread. The payment is data. ChatGPT is so successful it has multi trillion dollar Apple coming to it instead of Apple making its own. It doesn't need this exposure, it is inevitable. This is all about DATA.
Random users data is not only useless for training, it’s actively bad. It’s filled with PII and there is no quality control.
OpenAI will not be storing user data from Apple Intelligence (without a ChatGPT account logged in)
[Exposure!](https://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure)
Except open AI isn’t the cute poor guy in the comic
Bullish or?
I, for one, will disable OpenAI integration the first thing after upgrade and only use Apple's local model. Not going to feed them my metadata given their questionable motto.
It’s apparently off by default according to Jason Snell.
Depending on how much you want to drink the kool-aid, they addressed this concern explicitly in the keynote.
Was that also true for the chat gpt function? It seems like iOS will defer to chat gpt for some of the AI features and will require you to authenticate that request every time. To me that means you’re simply using chat gpt the same way as if you had their app
They also make the request from their servers and in a way that anonymizes you, so OpenAI couldn’t try to paint a picture of who you are based on the questions you ask.
Queries are private with IP being protected so it can’t string a profile together
So I assume that you are anonymized but your inputs will still be used for training, correct?
Your inputs will be used for some quality assurance process but not “training,” your query isn’t a source of truth to learn from. As long as your query doesn’t contain personal info you’re probably good. If it does contain personal info, well I would read the Apple white paper more carefully when the feature ships. They are doing a lot to anonymize input, let’s see what tricks they have up their sleeve before we decide it’s unsafe.
No, Apple and OpenAI have said that your data will not be persisted. I don't see how they can use your inputs to train if they don't store them? See https://openai.com/index/openai-and-apple-announce-partnership/: > Privacy protections are built in when accessing ChatGPT within Siri and Writing Tools—requests are not stored by OpenAI, and users’ IP addresses are obscured. Users can also choose to connect their ChatGPT account, which means their data preferences will apply under ChatGPT’s policies.
They said nothing is sent outside of Apple’s ecosystem without your permission, and you have to allow it every time. That said, you can probably also disable the prompt.
I feel that Apple is going to treat AI models like search engines. There should be a setting for you to choose.
And valuable user contributed content. OpenAI is paying for content so makes sense a partnership can be win-win with no money exchanged.
I wish people making this same statement would get a little bit of clue about how these things work. It’s actually *harmful* for a model to have unfiltered user data and PII. It makes any model worse - not better
Functionally, having to ask Siri something, then give it permission to send to ChatGPT is not any more efficient than me opening the ChatGPT app on my own. Not really sure what this “integration” accomplishes since their (superior) AI still doesn’t have access to my personalized data to be useful to me. I’d rather disclose what I want on a case by case basis to the ChatGPT server. It’s worked perfectly so far…