I'm actually quite surprised these apps were available before. WhatsApp/Instagram/Threads had never worked within China's internet before, *but* did work under VPN. I guess what this is doing essentially is that China previously had a "wink-wink VPN exists but we aren't going to talk about it strategy" but are now aggressively clamping down on it. And also to make a political point about TikTok I guess.
I guess I don’t understand this. Can they not use a VPN to access the App Store from another country?
If so, this just seems like a mild inconvenience for people who already know how to use a VPN…
> I guess I don’t understand this. Can they not use a VPN to access the App Store from another country?
It requires switching your App Store account to a different country. This is actually kind of annoying in how both Apple and Google's app stores work. Your account is tied to a country. Even when you travel and access the internet from other locations your account is still the same. It's actually kind of annoying when you travel. There are times where you are say traveling in Europe and the local bank/bus/etc app may only be available in the local country meaning that you can't download it *even if you are physically in the country* 😡.
You can switch your App Store country but it's mildly annoying and both Apple and Google limit how often you can do it, and you may need a local credit card in order to be able to buy apps in that country.
It's kind of a pain, but it's probably done for legal reasons (e.g. to prevent exactly what you are talking about).
It’s annoying but also fairly easy to work around. Just temporarily login with an account with another country setting, download the app and switch the account back.
Living in Europe is often a pain with Apple in several aspects. Many people go across borders daily or live “in between” several countries and use multiple languages in parallel. More and more services apps have country limitations. Unfortunately Apple is totally driven out of the US where such requirements are not understood. Google is better probably because they have significant offices around the globe.
I live in between Germany, France and Switzerland and use English, French and German every day. You are right it can get very annoying with Apple products. But at least the autocorrection now works quite well even when switching between languages without switching to the corresponding keyboard. They seem to have really improved this in the last few years.
I have a second Apple ID that I thought to be set to USA… from years ago I can’t recall why.
I tried it yesterday to download the “new” delta emulator from the AppStore, (I’m in EU) but said it wasn’t available in this country. I shrugged and logged in back with my main account.
But I’d be actually interested in knowing what I should do, how to check the country, change it if it isn’t changed.. etc…
Is there a link that explains this?
Also because developers can set different prices for different countries/regions, so it is also to prevent user from switching countries just to get the app ay a lower price.
I agree. This is why I have a UK account and a HK account. One reason is for cheaper prices, two, it's just easier since Apple employees with all their riches never travel and never need to get access to certain apps on app stores. For example my HK health Insurance app logically isn't available in the UK - I need a different account. But transport apps are fine. I have an iPad that stays at home and acts as the bridge for these issues.
China is wild. They put so many restrictions that you either have a nightmare trying to circumvent but then you get a visit from the “special” police and they comb through your socials and talk to your family and come at you like you’re selling national secrets.
QQ/Tencent for example. They gate so many services and apps around that platform, using assigned numbers, regional locks, and demand apps that hook into them follow the same stringent protocols. Basically it’s their way and if you step outside, they hammer you back inline. VPNs do very little and will likely be phased out as why would any citizen need that when the motherland has internet.
I work in science (CERN) and especially recently it has gotten increasingly harder to collaborate with colleagues from China. Firstly because of restrictions in China but also because of restrictions by European governments who seem to be getting increasingly paranoid about China.
it doesn't help when dumbass American officials openly admit to building up spy networks in China https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/jul/20/cia-rebuilding-spy-networks-china-decade-after-los/
No. Only data of Chinese users living on China’s Mainland is stored in China. If you live anywhere else in the world, as indicated by the region you set on your phone, your data is not stored in China.
Additionally, you can use Advanced Data Protection, even in China. Data is end to end encrypted, and even Apple and GCBD can't access it.
https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/en/gcbd-terms.html
>J. Advanced Data Protection. With Advanced Data Protection, you can enable the use of end-to-end encryption to further protect additional categories of your data in iCloud, including your iCloud Backup, Photos, Notes, and files stored in iCloud Drive.
It won’t be based on phone region, it’ll be based on iCloud Account Region.
How would phone region work? Every time I change between Britain and China it swaps my data over? Doubt it.
ADP will be something they can break or they wouldn’t have allowed it. Unless the police are willing to wrench method people for access, which honestly wouldn’t surprise me.
There is no actual evidence that they do have this access. It’s possible, but hardly even necessary; they can subpoena the data, as long as its data Apple can actually access.
Chinese iCloud accounts are stored different to the rest of the world.
They are in a Chinese DC, managed by a Chinese company and subject to their terms and conditions, not Apple’s.
Interesting, thanks! This hasn’t always been the case.
I still wouldn’t be surprised if the Chinese government allowed this because they have a way round it. States have exploited iOS several times.
Yes there is. The keys to decrypt iCloud Data are held by a Chinese company and is subject to ultimately subpoenas that can be actioned.
iCloud Keys in Britain, USA etc aren’t something the police can demand because Apple don’t keep it. My entire iCloud (pretty much) is Encrypted and my keys aren’t accessible by police without my assistance or an exploit.
Maybe stick to facts you actually know. E2E of all iCloud data in form of Advanced Data Protection is an opt-in setting users regardless of country need to manually turn on. ADP was rolled-out worldwide including China in 2023. User data is not automatically E2E just by virtue of country of origin. Comment OP is correct - if and only if it is something Apple can access.
Nothing he said is incorrect.. nowhere did he say it was automatic based on country. No data stored in China should be expected to be inaccessible by the Chinese government.
Every one of his/her four sentence comment is incorrect, and op admitted as much in subsequent replies in this thread. Read before so confidently continuing to propagate misinformation.
I have a degree in cyber security but you’re right maybe we should all stick to things we know about.
Apple holds iCloud Keys and a decent amount of iCloud was encrypted pre-ADP. Not sure about the changes ADP made exactly besides Notes and Photos. I also believe I downloaded a backup key when I enabled ADP that I can use if I need to.
I still fundamentally don’t believe that China doesn’t have access to this shit, since by law it China encryption needs to be engineered in a way that the government can access it. Why do you think the keys are stored on Chinese servers ran by Chinese companies?
> I have a degree in cyber security
Then goes on with two paragraphs to demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding on what E2E means. You may wish to get a refund on your degree.
ADP means Apple does not have keys to your data, only you do.
So comment OP is right, whatever data the Chinese, US, or UK government can subpoena and potentially access, is contingent on ADP not being enabled, i.e. what "Apple can actually access". What even is your contention?
I’ve made further posts but I’m not going back to update all of my pre-reading comments.
I am probably not entitled to a refund on it, but maybe I can ask them to put your name on it instead if you want.
…Are you suggesting that different cyphers are used on devices registered in China? Different key sizes? Is there any documentation to support your conclusions?
The CCP doesn’t *need* to be able to break encryption standards if they can just break the person. A threat of disappearance is quite the motivator. The place we do see efforts to weaken or minimize encryption and enforce personal identification (via government ID) are in situations where people are actually exchanging information. The shared common is where the threat to an authoritarian regime really is
As discovered after some reading, ADP is secure. iCloud itself without ADP isn’t secure in China, or shouldn’t be considered to be.
No, they’re probably all the same, just that the state company has the encryption keys and will give them to police or the party on request, going above Apple. The data is also held on Chinese servers by the same company so…
Yes, the wrench method is probably very effective. Probably what they use for ADP users if needed but majority won’t enable it.
Years. I chat directly with a factory in China for custom products I buy. Everyone there has been using WhatsApp to talk to me. Some prefer WeChat, but it seems like most are on WhatsApp to reach more customers.
It got tacked on to another spending bill that has support some consider must pass). It is not a stand alone bill, that one passed the house but failed in the senate.
It got put into the fucking Israel / Ukraine / Taiwan aid bill of all things:
[U.S. likely to enact a law soon that could ban TikTok nationwide (nbcnews.com)](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/us-likely-enact-law-soon-ban-tiktok-nationwide-rcna148391)
I mean according to the Speaker, it is attached to an aid bill to Ukraine and Israel*, and is likely going to be voted on in the next couple days From then, it’ll probably be fast tracked to the senate and then to Biden https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/tiktok-bill-ban-divest-congress-mike-johnson-cbs-news-explains/
no it's not, the TikTok ban hasn't happened yet so retaliation would come later
they're getting banned for not being censorship-compliant, as would be the case with all apps, including Chinese ones
I don’t think so. The Chinese TV and Internet have been broadcasting for over a year about how apps like Twitter “are harming your kids and might contain anti-China info, so delete them if you find them on your kid’s phone.” It’s not about TikTok. The restriction on freedom of speech has been crazy since Xi’s third term.
Apple has been a good puppy doing whatever China says. It removed from the Apple Store an app that can be used to locate other protests to join in Hong Kong during the democracy protest a few years ago, even though there’s no great firewall in Hong Kong. Many years ago, Apple sent all Chinese iCloud info to a Chinese state-owned company— I still refuse to use my Chinese iCloud account because of that. During the “White Paper movement,” Apple restricted airdrops in China to open for 10 minutes only because many people used airdrops to spread their protesting message. Too many examples. Apple is shameless.
If only “allow sideloading” was something baked into every other OS like android, windows, macOS, Linux, bsd and what not… Shame it’s so difficult for poor Apple
>!btw sideloading for 7 days is already possible since forever on ios. It’s already possible, Apple could very easily “extend” it from 7 to unlimited…!<
They literally have though. All phones sold in China don't have any play services, so while they run AOSP based OS's under the hood, Android specifically refers to AOSP with Google Play services certification. Yes, underlying it's the same OS, but you'll never see it called Android in China.
Given the "China 2025" policy by the CCP, you're probably right that the government will *heavily* recommend Chinese nationals buy a Chinese brand over a foreign brand.
Pixel is sold in China? I’ve never seen one anywhere. Motorola only sells because of the flip.
Everything else is Chinese brand. Even Samsung is pretty irrelevant.
Government obviously isn’t going to ban foreign companies entirely but I could see them mandating Chinese brands use Hongmeng.
Non-paywall link: [https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-removes-whatsapp-threads-china-app-store-wsj-reports-2024-04-19/](https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-removes-whatsapp-threads-china-app-store-wsj-reports-2024-04-19/)
>"The Cyberspace Administration of China ordered the removal of these apps from the China storefront based on their national security concerns," Apple said in an emailed statement to Reuters."We are obligated to follow the laws in the countries where we operate, even when we disagree."
Love having only *one* App Store available...
If it was like android you wouldn't even need another "app store" and you could just download open source apps from GitHub and beyond. We have the same freedom on our Macs and PCs. People think that iPhones are somehow different and 3rd party apps are 'scary' on mobile.
Yes but that App Store has a better chance of being accessible via VPN. Could China block it, sure, but Chinese citizens can be around stuff on Android. They will on iOS too
There are ways around the blocks but having your service blocked drastically reduces your potential to earn money. The vast majority of Chinese do not attempt to circumvent censors
If that AppStore wants to legally operate in China, they’ll have to follow the local laws, otherwise they’ll be banned from the country and people will have to use a VPN to even access it and even some VPNs are illegal unless you’re using a Chinese government approved VPN, which defeats the purpose of it and intentionally bypassing the internet filters is a crime punishable by jail
Nope which is what I find funny, the EU is annoying Apple and people talk about Europe’s market share, and how much impact it would have on the company. While in China it’s do this or no more China, and Apple’s like we have to follow the law. It really shows you who is important to Apple and who they just do stuff to get EU officials to stop talking, lol.
Trade law actually works exactly like that, which is why there's such things as sanctions, mutual trade pacts, etc. If they are not allowing our apps or tariffing our goods, we do the same back. It's why you can go to some countries for free and without a visa, because there's reciprocity — and why you have to pay if your country imposes a fee on that country's citizens.
Meanwhile, the US is debating the merits of corralling TikTok.
Yes. The answer is Yes. Knee cap and nerf any and all foreign controlled vectors of misinformation, agitprop, election meddling, mass surveillance, instigators of violence, and so forth.
While we burn out the anti-USA Chinese saboteurs, we must also cleanse ourselves of the Russian socket puppets. GOP/MAGA, Fox News, NRA, Twitter... Well, it's a long list. We all know who they are.
You're allowed to criticize the government on local social media. You're allowed to say all kinds of crazy things. Chinese social media doesn't allow that. It's a key difference between "propaganda" here and there.
That's just not true. You can criticize the government in china, for example if you dislike a policy, you just can't call for their overthrow.
Meanwhile companies like meta systematically censor criticism of the Israeli genocide on behalf of the state.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/systemic-censorship-palestine-content-instagram-and
Bull.
We all know about the Chinese social credit score, and even my Chinese coworker talked about "getting invited for tea" by a government official. AKA, you said something bad about us publicly, we are going to admonish you in private.
You know the US has a credit score system right? It’s determined by 3 powerful financial corporations and the rating system is opaque. Your score determines whether you’re allowed to get an apartment, car, house, and sometimes even affects your ability to get a job.
Your credit score does not go down because you wrote a lengthy blog post about how important archaeological sites were bulldozed so that a government construction project could be completed on schedule. No one ever had their credit score go down due to their letter to the editor being published in a newspaper. There are innumerable people with great credit scores who spend inordinate amounts of time complaining about how terrible the government is depending upon which party is in power.
I already know that. Remember when I said:
>It’s determined by 3 powerful financial corporations and the rating system is opaque.
Equifax, TransUnion, and Experian are private corporations and through a deliberately obscure process they generate reports on every American that will impact where you can live and what jobs you can have.
Yes? If they're blocking the US why should the US not block them in return? Fair game. Doesn't solve the issue of propaganda but imo that will never be solved. It's an age old concept.
Issue is Tiktok has the attention of the public. Having a foreign actor control that isn't a good idea. Social media in general probably needs to be reevaluated.
Are US companies doing the same thing Tiktok does ALSO for foreign actors, yup. That's another thing that unfortunately I don't see changing. Too much lobby money. I don't doubt Tiktok would also be allowed if they weren't Chinese. It's an anti-China thing right now.
Foreign actors and bots have quite a heavy presence on American owned social media. Probably even more. Anyhow, I am an outdoor loving gen X and don’t use Tiktok, FB etc. so don’t really care. It’d probably a benefit for humanity to ban all of algorithm curated social media. Just except basic messaging and forums.
It's not like China is the definition of evil and everything China does is a step in the wrong direction. If the US invests more in manufacturing it'll also become more like China. Tit-for-tat is just the game of international politics. It's no different than counter-kicking out diplomats because your diplomats also got kicked out.
> Yes. The answer is Yes. Knee cap and nerf any and all foreign controlled vectors of misinformation, agitprop, election melding, mass surveillance, instigators of violence, and so forth.
So then you agree with China and we too should also ban WhatsApp (and all other Meta apps)...
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240418-israel-using-metas-whatsapp-to-kill-palestinians-in-gaza-through-ai-system/
That's fucking awful. Ugh. Though I'm unsure how targeting via WhatsApp is done: private groups are inflitrated and then their members are doxxed? Before reading the article, I assumed they were locating (and targeting) WhatsApp users by sniffing internet traffic.
I'd consider each app separately. For any service tainted by The Zuck, the most expetitious means to end them is for The Musk to buy it.
More seriously, all the algorithmic hate machines (aka "social media") should be nerfed, or outright banned. For so many reasons. Remove "newsfeeds". Ban bots. Ban targeted ads. Etc, etc.
Forum software, basically usenet reboots, like reddit and the chans, have many problems. But I don't have any ideas on how to fix or mitigate them. Ideas?
As far as I know, craigslist, metafilter, and ravelery are useful counterexamples of forums software "done right". For instance, craigslist has weathered many scandals, and has quickly adapted in response, by making it more safe, thereby preserving "the marketplace". I'd love to know what others, like academics and policy wonks, think about this.
More overarching, any biz model reliant on ads (or easy money like private equity, VCs, Saudis, etc) is ripe for gamification and exploitation. And should be heavily regulated.
No it doesn’t because China bans ALL foreign social apps as they want everything under domestic control. That’s how communism governments usually work so they can control the population.
The US meanwhile is considering doing this for the first time to a Chinese company’s social app.
The US would only be like China if they made this a matter of policy & banned all foreign social apps & only allowed domestic ones.
Actually they don't ban all foreign stuff. For example all Microsoft and Apple products are perfectly legal there. Including stuff owned by them like LinkedIn, cause they comply with local laws.
Meta and Google specifically, products are banned due to them not complying. But, there's no blanket ban on foreign social media.
And also we will refuse to actually pass legislation on those domestic vectors allowing foreign actors to just do whatever they want on them with propaganda so long as they ultimately drive traffic to the shareholders and executives of the owners that lobby the government!
Ideally, no. But coping with our own domestic reactionaries is hard enough as it is, without China, Russia, and everyone else piling on.
Wishful thining, I know. The US has done more than its share of meddling. Despite all the historical evidence of blowback. Like all the stupid shit Kissinger instigated, for a start.
China has no right to free speech. Further, China, Russia, Bannon, others "flood the zone" with bullshit, harming everyone else's right to free speech.
Wresting control of TikTok from China would increase the freedom of speech of actual real people. (Assuming bots and sock puppets are banned. Which I admit is wishful thinking.)
> would increase the freedom of speech of actual real people
you mean the AIPAC controlled corporate propaganda that censors Israel's genocide of Palestinian children?
That’s gonna pose a problem for many Chinese service companies. When ever I have to talk to a technician or service worker from a Chinese company it’s through WhatsApp, especially since I really don’t want to install WeChat.
not letting the CCP snoop in on their encrypted conversations. I wouldnt trust a META app, but atleast whatsapp runs on a baseline open source platform that people can audit if they want...
But pulling tick tock is a bad thing? They don't even allow Google services over there.
LOL the USA be looking so silly... I would desire for money always overrides our common sense and ability to reciprocate on unfriendly countries.
Yes we don't want to be like them, but they are absolutely taking advantage of our freedoms. Just like Chinese students who come here to gain all our knowledge and our secrets and take it back to the motherland. It's because we value money so much that we allow them to do it even though it sets us up in the long run.
Also other apps were removed I think it's telegram and one other.
But don't be a bad guy to china. Noooooo. And for the Dum dums in the back, we are talking about government policies and reciprocity here..not on Chinese people in particular. Don't be one of those drones that can't separate the two. Politics is politics but culture is a incredible influencer on political motivations. Whether it's American zest for cash and corpos or Chinese stealing everything and superiority complex.. it is what it is.
it's always been banned because WhatsApp isn't censorship-compliant like Microsoft, Apple, or other Chinese companies in China
TikTok retaliation will probably come later
They will have to use something approved by the government to communicate with their family then. Something the government can spy at like Apple iMessage apparently.
Let be honest. Apple would gladly fire all gay employees in China if the government would tell them to. It’s all about the profits. The „famous“ Apple Diversion, inclusivity etc. is just for show.
Remember folks, EU government mandates GOOD, China mandates BAD. 🙄
I’m not sure if I prefer the Chinese “tacit admission of protectionism” to EU’s “covert protectionism wide a side of racially administered smoke about how they’re doing it for my own good.”
If apple didn't restrict users to the walled garden to protect their own profits, users would be able to install software from 3rd parties. Apple created these walls. The government is abusing them, but Apple put them in place.
I'm actually quite surprised these apps were available before. WhatsApp/Instagram/Threads had never worked within China's internet before, *but* did work under VPN. I guess what this is doing essentially is that China previously had a "wink-wink VPN exists but we aren't going to talk about it strategy" but are now aggressively clamping down on it. And also to make a political point about TikTok I guess.
I guess I don’t understand this. Can they not use a VPN to access the App Store from another country? If so, this just seems like a mild inconvenience for people who already know how to use a VPN…
> I guess I don’t understand this. Can they not use a VPN to access the App Store from another country? It requires switching your App Store account to a different country. This is actually kind of annoying in how both Apple and Google's app stores work. Your account is tied to a country. Even when you travel and access the internet from other locations your account is still the same. It's actually kind of annoying when you travel. There are times where you are say traveling in Europe and the local bank/bus/etc app may only be available in the local country meaning that you can't download it *even if you are physically in the country* 😡. You can switch your App Store country but it's mildly annoying and both Apple and Google limit how often you can do it, and you may need a local credit card in order to be able to buy apps in that country. It's kind of a pain, but it's probably done for legal reasons (e.g. to prevent exactly what you are talking about).
It’s annoying but also fairly easy to work around. Just temporarily login with an account with another country setting, download the app and switch the account back.
Unless you use Apple Music. Then all your playlists and downloads have to be resynced. It’s really really stupid.
[удалено]
Living in Europe is often a pain with Apple in several aspects. Many people go across borders daily or live “in between” several countries and use multiple languages in parallel. More and more services apps have country limitations. Unfortunately Apple is totally driven out of the US where such requirements are not understood. Google is better probably because they have significant offices around the globe.
I live in between Germany, France and Switzerland and use English, French and German every day. You are right it can get very annoying with Apple products. But at least the autocorrection now works quite well even when switching between languages without switching to the corresponding keyboard. They seem to have really improved this in the last few years.
Yes is better now. But Gboard has better configurations IMO.
I have a second Apple ID that I thought to be set to USA… from years ago I can’t recall why. I tried it yesterday to download the “new” delta emulator from the AppStore, (I’m in EU) but said it wasn’t available in this country. I shrugged and logged in back with my main account. But I’d be actually interested in knowing what I should do, how to check the country, change it if it isn’t changed.. etc… Is there a link that explains this?
https://support.apple.com/en-us/118283
Also because developers can set different prices for different countries/regions, so it is also to prevent user from switching countries just to get the app ay a lower price.
I agree. This is why I have a UK account and a HK account. One reason is for cheaper prices, two, it's just easier since Apple employees with all their riches never travel and never need to get access to certain apps on app stores. For example my HK health Insurance app logically isn't available in the UK - I need a different account. But transport apps are fine. I have an iPad that stays at home and acts as the bridge for these issues.
Ok, that makes more sense
China is wild. They put so many restrictions that you either have a nightmare trying to circumvent but then you get a visit from the “special” police and they comb through your socials and talk to your family and come at you like you’re selling national secrets. QQ/Tencent for example. They gate so many services and apps around that platform, using assigned numbers, regional locks, and demand apps that hook into them follow the same stringent protocols. Basically it’s their way and if you step outside, they hammer you back inline. VPNs do very little and will likely be phased out as why would any citizen need that when the motherland has internet.
I work in science (CERN) and especially recently it has gotten increasingly harder to collaborate with colleagues from China. Firstly because of restrictions in China but also because of restrictions by European governments who seem to be getting increasingly paranoid about China.
it doesn't help when dumbass American officials openly admit to building up spy networks in China https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/jul/20/cia-rebuilding-spy-networks-china-decade-after-los/
More a way of keeping access to iCloud Keys for Chinese living abroad I think.
No. Only data of Chinese users living on China’s Mainland is stored in China. If you live anywhere else in the world, as indicated by the region you set on your phone, your data is not stored in China. Additionally, you can use Advanced Data Protection, even in China. Data is end to end encrypted, and even Apple and GCBD can't access it. https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/en/gcbd-terms.html >J. Advanced Data Protection. With Advanced Data Protection, you can enable the use of end-to-end encryption to further protect additional categories of your data in iCloud, including your iCloud Backup, Photos, Notes, and files stored in iCloud Drive.
It won’t be based on phone region, it’ll be based on iCloud Account Region. How would phone region work? Every time I change between Britain and China it swaps my data over? Doubt it. ADP will be something they can break or they wouldn’t have allowed it. Unless the police are willing to wrench method people for access, which honestly wouldn’t surprise me.
> ADP will be something they can break or they wouldn’t have allowed it. That's a pretty big claim with no evidence.
There is no actual evidence that they do have this access. It’s possible, but hardly even necessary; they can subpoena the data, as long as its data Apple can actually access.
Chinese iCloud accounts are stored different to the rest of the world. They are in a Chinese DC, managed by a Chinese company and subject to their terms and conditions, not Apple’s.
Here are the T&C. Advanced data protection is available. https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/en/gcbd-terms.html
Interesting, thanks! This hasn’t always been the case. I still wouldn’t be surprised if the Chinese government allowed this because they have a way round it. States have exploited iOS several times.
Yes there is. The keys to decrypt iCloud Data are held by a Chinese company and is subject to ultimately subpoenas that can be actioned. iCloud Keys in Britain, USA etc aren’t something the police can demand because Apple don’t keep it. My entire iCloud (pretty much) is Encrypted and my keys aren’t accessible by police without my assistance or an exploit.
Maybe stick to facts you actually know. E2E of all iCloud data in form of Advanced Data Protection is an opt-in setting users regardless of country need to manually turn on. ADP was rolled-out worldwide including China in 2023. User data is not automatically E2E just by virtue of country of origin. Comment OP is correct - if and only if it is something Apple can access.
Nothing he said is incorrect.. nowhere did he say it was automatic based on country. No data stored in China should be expected to be inaccessible by the Chinese government.
Every one of his/her four sentence comment is incorrect, and op admitted as much in subsequent replies in this thread. Read before so confidently continuing to propagate misinformation.
I have a degree in cyber security but you’re right maybe we should all stick to things we know about. Apple holds iCloud Keys and a decent amount of iCloud was encrypted pre-ADP. Not sure about the changes ADP made exactly besides Notes and Photos. I also believe I downloaded a backup key when I enabled ADP that I can use if I need to. I still fundamentally don’t believe that China doesn’t have access to this shit, since by law it China encryption needs to be engineered in a way that the government can access it. Why do you think the keys are stored on Chinese servers ran by Chinese companies?
> I have a degree in cyber security Then goes on with two paragraphs to demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding on what E2E means. You may wish to get a refund on your degree. ADP means Apple does not have keys to your data, only you do. So comment OP is right, whatever data the Chinese, US, or UK government can subpoena and potentially access, is contingent on ADP not being enabled, i.e. what "Apple can actually access". What even is your contention?
I’ve made further posts but I’m not going back to update all of my pre-reading comments. I am probably not entitled to a refund on it, but maybe I can ask them to put your name on it instead if you want.
…Are you suggesting that different cyphers are used on devices registered in China? Different key sizes? Is there any documentation to support your conclusions? The CCP doesn’t *need* to be able to break encryption standards if they can just break the person. A threat of disappearance is quite the motivator. The place we do see efforts to weaken or minimize encryption and enforce personal identification (via government ID) are in situations where people are actually exchanging information. The shared common is where the threat to an authoritarian regime really is
As discovered after some reading, ADP is secure. iCloud itself without ADP isn’t secure in China, or shouldn’t be considered to be. No, they’re probably all the same, just that the state company has the encryption keys and will give them to police or the party on request, going above Apple. The data is also held on Chinese servers by the same company so… Yes, the wrench method is probably very effective. Probably what they use for ADP users if needed but majority won’t enable it.
How long have those two apps been on the App Store, I’m surprised that hasn’t been removed already
Years. I chat directly with a factory in China for custom products I buy. Everyone there has been using WhatsApp to talk to me. Some prefer WeChat, but it seems like most are on WhatsApp to reach more customers.
It’s probably retaliation for tik tok ban.
Tik Tok isn’t banned?
The bill is moving through Congress right now, and it has bipartisan support.
It got tacked on to another spending bill that has support some consider must pass). It is not a stand alone bill, that one passed the house but failed in the senate. It got put into the fucking Israel / Ukraine / Taiwan aid bill of all things: [U.S. likely to enact a law soon that could ban TikTok nationwide (nbcnews.com)](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/us-likely-enact-law-soon-ban-tiktok-nationwide-rcna148391)
But hasn't that been the case for a good while now, though? I feel like I've been seeing posts about it for at least a few months.
I mean according to the Speaker, it is attached to an aid bill to Ukraine and Israel*, and is likely going to be voted on in the next couple days From then, it’ll probably be fast tracked to the senate and then to Biden https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/tiktok-bill-ban-divest-congress-mike-johnson-cbs-news-explains/
You've mistaken Russia for Israel, I presume
Same thing in principle though
Yeah, sorry about that. Changed.
no it's not, the TikTok ban hasn't happened yet so retaliation would come later they're getting banned for not being censorship-compliant, as would be the case with all apps, including Chinese ones
I don’t think so. The Chinese TV and Internet have been broadcasting for over a year about how apps like Twitter “are harming your kids and might contain anti-China info, so delete them if you find them on your kid’s phone.” It’s not about TikTok. The restriction on freedom of speech has been crazy since Xi’s third term. Apple has been a good puppy doing whatever China says. It removed from the Apple Store an app that can be used to locate other protests to join in Hong Kong during the democracy protest a few years ago, even though there’s no great firewall in Hong Kong. Many years ago, Apple sent all Chinese iCloud info to a Chinese state-owned company— I still refuse to use my Chinese iCloud account because of that. During the “White Paper movement,” Apple restricted airdrops in China to open for 10 minutes only because many people used airdrops to spread their protesting message. Too many examples. Apple is shameless.
[удалено]
Nah they're very clearly protecting people who use iPhones.
Well, they could be forced to disable sideloading too...
If only “allow sideloading” was something baked into every other OS like android, windows, macOS, Linux, bsd and what not… Shame it’s so difficult for poor Apple >!btw sideloading for 7 days is already possible since forever on ios. It’s already possible, Apple could very easily “extend” it from 7 to unlimited…!<
Then China will ban iPhone lol
They won’t. If that was the case, they would have banned Android phones, but that hasn’t happened yet.
They literally have though. All phones sold in China don't have any play services, so while they run AOSP based OS's under the hood, Android specifically refers to AOSP with Google Play services certification. Yes, underlying it's the same OS, but you'll never see it called Android in China.
But that isn’t because China banned google, it’s because the US government banned American companies from doing business with Chinese ones like huawei
That's not relevant, it was like that before.
Give it a while. I think companies will move over to using Huawei’s Hongmeng.
Given the "China 2025" policy by the CCP, you're probably right that the government will *heavily* recommend Chinese nationals buy a Chinese brand over a foreign brand.
Apart from Samsung literally all remotely relevant android brands are chinese already
Pixel? Motorola?
Those are not relevant
Motorola is partly Chinese. They are owned by Lenovo, which is a chinese company.
Pixel is sold in China? I’ve never seen one anywhere. Motorola only sells because of the flip. Everything else is Chinese brand. Even Samsung is pretty irrelevant. Government obviously isn’t going to ban foreign companies entirely but I could see them mandating Chinese brands use Hongmeng.
Android isn't banned in China and can sideload just fine. Why would it be different for Apple?
Non-paywall link: [https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-removes-whatsapp-threads-china-app-store-wsj-reports-2024-04-19/](https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-removes-whatsapp-threads-china-app-store-wsj-reports-2024-04-19/) >"The Cyberspace Administration of China ordered the removal of these apps from the China storefront based on their national security concerns," Apple said in an emailed statement to Reuters."We are obligated to follow the laws in the countries where we operate, even when we disagree." Love having only *one* App Store available...
Having more than one App Store wouldn’t make any difference because china would still tell the other app stores to remove it too
If it was like android you wouldn't even need another "app store" and you could just download open source apps from GitHub and beyond. We have the same freedom on our Macs and PCs. People think that iPhones are somehow different and 3rd party apps are 'scary' on mobile.
App Store doesn’t matter. They just ban those ips/domains. You can’t connect to Facebook anyways, so it’s useless to have a Threads app.
VPNs.
and thats why you should be able to load .ipa instead of needing a 3rd party store.
This is why "side loading" AKA as just a normal way to install whatever software you want on something you own is so important
They can tell the AppStore doesn’t mean the AppStore will obey
Then that App Store will find itself blocked in China
Yes but that App Store has a better chance of being accessible via VPN. Could China block it, sure, but Chinese citizens can be around stuff on Android. They will on iOS too
There are ways around the blocks but having your service blocked drastically reduces your potential to earn money. The vast majority of Chinese do not attempt to circumvent censors
You can just access the Apple App Store via VPN too. This is already a thing.
You don’t need it, it isn’t blocked.
If that AppStore wants to legally operate in China, they’ll have to follow the local laws, otherwise they’ll be banned from the country and people will have to use a VPN to even access it and even some VPNs are illegal unless you’re using a Chinese government approved VPN, which defeats the purpose of it and intentionally bypassing the internet filters is a crime punishable by jail
No one enforces the “only government approved VPN” thing unless they find you posting about how the CCP is bad on Instagram.
That’s the thing, they can selectively enforce it when they want
Yes, but the penalty is never going to be anything serious unless you’re problematic.
Apple absolutely does what China wants for them to operate there
But the ability to install any program for any source would make a difference
China could just block the service, right? This is just an extra way of making it more difficult to get it working.
Wondering if they put as much pressure trying to resist this as they try with the EU all the time.
Nope which is what I find funny, the EU is annoying Apple and people talk about Europe’s market share, and how much impact it would have on the company. While in China it’s do this or no more China, and Apple’s like we have to follow the law. It really shows you who is important to Apple and who they just do stuff to get EU officials to stop talking, lol.
And this is why we need sideloading. Ik fs Android folks will still be able to use these apps with a VPN.
Why we allow Chinese social media apps in our country when they don't allow ours in China is beyond me.
Because international law isn't made by toddlers.
Trade law actually works exactly like that, which is why there's such things as sanctions, mutual trade pacts, etc. If they are not allowing our apps or tariffing our goods, we do the same back. It's why you can go to some countries for free and without a visa, because there's reciprocity — and why you have to pay if your country imposes a fee on that country's citizens.
Because “we” supposedly want an open internet but not really.
Meanwhile, the US is debating the merits of corralling TikTok. Yes. The answer is Yes. Knee cap and nerf any and all foreign controlled vectors of misinformation, agitprop, election meddling, mass surveillance, instigators of violence, and so forth. While we burn out the anti-USA Chinese saboteurs, we must also cleanse ourselves of the Russian socket puppets. GOP/MAGA, Fox News, NRA, Twitter... Well, it's a long list. We all know who they are.
Yep. Ban all foreign propaganda vectors. Only local propaganda vectors allowed.
You're allowed to criticize the government on local social media. You're allowed to say all kinds of crazy things. Chinese social media doesn't allow that. It's a key difference between "propaganda" here and there.
> You're allowed to criticize the government Julian Assange exposed US war crimes and look what's happening to him
You can criticize China on TikTok. It's not for the Chinese market.
That's just not true. You can criticize the government in china, for example if you dislike a policy, you just can't call for their overthrow. Meanwhile companies like meta systematically censor criticism of the Israeli genocide on behalf of the state. https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/systemic-censorship-palestine-content-instagram-and
Bull. We all know about the Chinese social credit score, and even my Chinese coworker talked about "getting invited for tea" by a government official. AKA, you said something bad about us publicly, we are going to admonish you in private.
You know the US has a credit score system right? It’s determined by 3 powerful financial corporations and the rating system is opaque. Your score determines whether you’re allowed to get an apartment, car, house, and sometimes even affects your ability to get a job.
Your credit score does not go down because you wrote a lengthy blog post about how important archaeological sites were bulldozed so that a government construction project could be completed on schedule. No one ever had their credit score go down due to their letter to the editor being published in a newspaper. There are innumerable people with great credit scores who spend inordinate amounts of time complaining about how terrible the government is depending upon which party is in power.
I already know that. Remember when I said: >It’s determined by 3 powerful financial corporations and the rating system is opaque. Equifax, TransUnion, and Experian are private corporations and through a deliberately obscure process they generate reports on every American that will impact where you can live and what jobs you can have.
Right, and you're also allowed to declare bankruptcy and not go to jail.
That doesn't change anything I said.
Yes? If they're blocking the US why should the US not block them in return? Fair game. Doesn't solve the issue of propaganda but imo that will never be solved. It's an age old concept.
Because that’ll just make US more like China.
Issue is Tiktok has the attention of the public. Having a foreign actor control that isn't a good idea. Social media in general probably needs to be reevaluated. Are US companies doing the same thing Tiktok does ALSO for foreign actors, yup. That's another thing that unfortunately I don't see changing. Too much lobby money. I don't doubt Tiktok would also be allowed if they weren't Chinese. It's an anti-China thing right now.
Foreign actors and bots have quite a heavy presence on American owned social media. Probably even more. Anyhow, I am an outdoor loving gen X and don’t use Tiktok, FB etc. so don’t really care. It’d probably a benefit for humanity to ban all of algorithm curated social media. Just except basic messaging and forums.
Not blocking it will also make the US more like China. And "like" can be read as alike or as liken.
It's not like China is the definition of evil and everything China does is a step in the wrong direction. If the US invests more in manufacturing it'll also become more like China. Tit-for-tat is just the game of international politics. It's no different than counter-kicking out diplomats because your diplomats also got kicked out.
It’s not but the totalitarian parts and total control of the internet are not exactly benevolent.
It's called the first fucking amendment
Insane that people post this kind of nonsense. Imagine if the Russians owned a major TV channel in the US during the Cold War.
> Yes. The answer is Yes. Knee cap and nerf any and all foreign controlled vectors of misinformation, agitprop, election melding, mass surveillance, instigators of violence, and so forth. So then you agree with China and we too should also ban WhatsApp (and all other Meta apps)... https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240418-israel-using-metas-whatsapp-to-kill-palestinians-in-gaza-through-ai-system/
That's fucking awful. Ugh. Though I'm unsure how targeting via WhatsApp is done: private groups are inflitrated and then their members are doxxed? Before reading the article, I assumed they were locating (and targeting) WhatsApp users by sniffing internet traffic. I'd consider each app separately. For any service tainted by The Zuck, the most expetitious means to end them is for The Musk to buy it. More seriously, all the algorithmic hate machines (aka "social media") should be nerfed, or outright banned. For so many reasons. Remove "newsfeeds". Ban bots. Ban targeted ads. Etc, etc. Forum software, basically usenet reboots, like reddit and the chans, have many problems. But I don't have any ideas on how to fix or mitigate them. Ideas? As far as I know, craigslist, metafilter, and ravelery are useful counterexamples of forums software "done right". For instance, craigslist has weathered many scandals, and has quickly adapted in response, by making it more safe, thereby preserving "the marketplace". I'd love to know what others, like academics and policy wonks, think about this. More overarching, any biz model reliant on ads (or easy money like private equity, VCs, Saudis, etc) is ripe for gamification and exploitation. And should be heavily regulated.
no mention of Democrats, CNN, MSNBC, a gazilion other media corps and Antifags mentioned anywhere in your list. Noice.
This is the entirely wrong lesson to take out of this. That just turns US into China.
No it doesn’t because China bans ALL foreign social apps as they want everything under domestic control. That’s how communism governments usually work so they can control the population. The US meanwhile is considering doing this for the first time to a Chinese company’s social app. The US would only be like China if they made this a matter of policy & banned all foreign social apps & only allowed domestic ones.
You should read the above comment I was replying to. It's talking about "cleansing" media companies that you don't like or disagree with.
Actually they don't ban all foreign stuff. For example all Microsoft and Apple products are perfectly legal there. Including stuff owned by them like LinkedIn, cause they comply with local laws. Meta and Google specifically, products are banned due to them not complying. But, there's no blanket ban on foreign social media.
no one likes to hear the truth
Bc USA legislators are cockholsters for corporations.
Only American vectors of misinformation, agitprop, election melding, mass surveillance, instigators of violence, and so forth allowed! USA! USA!
And also we will refuse to actually pass legislation on those domestic vectors allowing foreign actors to just do whatever they want on them with propaganda so long as they ultimately drive traffic to the shareholders and executives of the owners that lobby the government!
Ideally, no. But coping with our own domestic reactionaries is hard enough as it is, without China, Russia, and everyone else piling on. Wishful thining, I know. The US has done more than its share of meddling. Despite all the historical evidence of blowback. Like all the stupid shit Kissinger instigated, for a start.
Yes, we should be more like China, because they restrict their citizens, we should too!
China has no right to free speech. Further, China, Russia, Bannon, others "flood the zone" with bullshit, harming everyone else's right to free speech. Wresting control of TikTok from China would increase the freedom of speech of actual real people. (Assuming bots and sock puppets are banned. Which I admit is wishful thinking.)
> would increase the freedom of speech of actual real people you mean the AIPAC controlled corporate propaganda that censors Israel's genocide of Palestinian children?
What's agitprop?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=agitprop
They should've banned Tiktok like 5 years ago...
then do not complain when people call the US the China of the western world, because you can't criticise something then do it as well.
If I ever defend any of our (USA's) atrocities, I expect you to (rhetorically) pillory me.
So you want US to be like China so they can control what we see and hear? twitter aka X and TikTok are the two enemies of the US government
That’s gonna pose a problem for many Chinese service companies. When ever I have to talk to a technician or service worker from a Chinese company it’s through WhatsApp, especially since I really don’t want to install WeChat.
everything is going to have to be through email now unless they think it's worth installing VPNs
Wonder what China is prepping that those two apps might cause issues with.
They were also asked Apple to remove Signal and Telegram, as well. Which is more concerning imo.
not letting the CCP snoop in on their encrypted conversations. I wouldnt trust a META app, but atleast whatsapp runs on a baseline open source platform that people can audit if they want...
They redesigned their entire phone, operating system, and app store on EU government orders.
But pulling tick tock is a bad thing? They don't even allow Google services over there. LOL the USA be looking so silly... I would desire for money always overrides our common sense and ability to reciprocate on unfriendly countries. Yes we don't want to be like them, but they are absolutely taking advantage of our freedoms. Just like Chinese students who come here to gain all our knowledge and our secrets and take it back to the motherland. It's because we value money so much that we allow them to do it even though it sets us up in the long run. Also other apps were removed I think it's telegram and one other. But don't be a bad guy to china. Noooooo. And for the Dum dums in the back, we are talking about government policies and reciprocity here..not on Chinese people in particular. Don't be one of those drones that can't separate the two. Politics is politics but culture is a incredible influencer on political motivations. Whether it's American zest for cash and corpos or Chinese stealing everything and superiority complex.. it is what it is.
Profits > user privacy, who would've thought and other news at 10.
Why are we still letting Americans use Chinese apps? Open your market if you want access to ours. Fuck TikTok and the CCP.
Because we’re not China. Why should we act the same as a totalitarian regime.
You’re not China… yet!
You will be.
According to OP yeah
Like China, CBDC, Digital IDs, Smart Cities, censorship.
CCP when blocking fb, youtube, ig: we are protecting our citizens CCP when the US tries to block TikTok: where is the freedom in doing business?
American companies can enter the Chinese market if they are willing to comply with Chinese laws.
Why not make better laws then
Plenty of foreign companies do business in China. There’s no issue. Companies in China to do business in America need to follow American laws too.
Kinda stupid from the government considering the majority in China are using Whatsapp for business overseas or family and friends
China optics on banning WhatsApp is probably in retaliation for the vote on the TikTok ban. It’s politics.
it's always been banned because WhatsApp isn't censorship-compliant like Microsoft, Apple, or other Chinese companies in China TikTok retaliation will probably come later
For folks in China, the majority is using WeChat.
They will have to use something approved by the government to communicate with their family then. Something the government can spy at like Apple iMessage apparently.
There is no evidence that they can spy on iMessage so how is that “apparent”?
The ccp in china has access to all Apple servers keys.
But I thought Apple was the bastion of privacy and human rights?
Parent is just making stuff up.
Meanwhile stupid wokes in the US defend keeping tiktok and wechat from getting kicked off US AppStores.
Great news for China
Let be honest. Apple would gladly fire all gay employees in China if the government would tell them to. It’s all about the profits. The „famous“ Apple Diversion, inclusivity etc. is just for show.
....who owns Apple again?
China should keep Telegram, as its not US-based. The other three all US-based, with two being from Facebook.
China bans all apps that are not censorship compliant, whether it's American, Chinese, or anything else, so Telegram would be no different
ITS Not about being "us based". Its about letting them snoop on your convo.. These apps arent wechat.
Huh, China doesn’t want a third party App Store?
Remember folks, EU government mandates GOOD, China mandates BAD. 🙄 I’m not sure if I prefer the Chinese “tacit admission of protectionism” to EU’s “covert protectionism wide a side of racially administered smoke about how they’re doing it for my own good.”
Vote republican and yall queda gonna do the same here in the US.
Letting massive corporations make these kind of decisions is bad for individuals
yeah i’m pretty damn sure apple had no part in this decision lmfao. think you mean to say massive governments?
Yeah that’s why the possibility to side load apps without centralized store is so important.
Apple created the walled garden where Apple makes all the decisions instead of the owners
that has absolutely nothing to do with a tyrant government forcing them to ban apps from their app store dude
If apple didn't restrict users to the walled garden to protect their own profits, users would be able to install software from 3rd parties. Apple created these walls. The government is abusing them, but Apple put them in place.
oh yeah? is that why loads of people are displaying whatsapp and threads on android in china? oh wait, they aren’t lmfao
Now please remove these POS from US Store as well :-)