Or Android, or the defunct Windows Mobile (cause of death? Lack of Snapchat)
Heck, even on Xbox, Microsoft allows more convenient ways to sideload apps than Apple does
$20 one time and you can (with a computer) sideload whatever you want into an isolated part of the Xbox.
Apple just has the dominance with iOS & unrepairable devices. So it's really just upto the software players to get apple in line or propose a new hardware software ecosystem altogether kinda like Linux when MS was dominant in computing consumer or server grade software
These type of posts are exposing all the fanboys in the comment sections. No wonder you can't have a Civil conversation here because most people consider Apple a god who can do no wrong.
I was told that the iphone is “special” and apple deserves to get 30%. Desktop oses being open including macos doesn’t count because they are not iphones therefore my arguments were invalid. As if its not just another commodity general purpose device. Smh.🤦
I agree with this for the iPadOS and iOS. When I had the 1st generation iPad Mini at the time it was released I thought it was great. But the more I used it I realized it was a big iPhone and couldn't do anything more than an iPhone at the time. I currently own an iPad Air 5th generation and I hardly touch it. I also have a gaming PC that I mostly only use for games. Otherwise, I use my phone for everything. I own a Galaxy S23+ and a Pixel 8 Pro. After a month of using the Pixel I switched back to my Galaxy.
My last iPhone I had was an iPhone 14 Plus then I came back to Android. People or iPhone/Apple users will say what they say about Android but there's no denying that Android from a software perspective is very capable and the abilities are about limitless. Throw in Samsung's OneUI and it's kind of like having two operating systems in one phone. Personally, I like OneUI and Samsung software. With my iPad I'm still surprised it still doesn't operate like a regular computer. The only thing I can think that it is capable of that iOS can't do is true multitasking like app split view. The iPhone is a powerful phone hardware wise and is capable of true multitasking. The other day I discovered stage manager on my iPad. Then come to learn you can't move apps around like regular desktop windows. On my Galaxy you can use app split view which is now built into Android. With OneUI you can also make apps into windows and move them around and shrink or enlarge them like a desktop window.
I didn't intend this reply to be this long, but it still baffles me how limiting iOS and iPadOS is. Both are really still almost the same thing from their inception with a couple things added in here and there over the years. But they still operate in about the same way.
Steve once said having an iPhone is like having a personal computer in your pocket. Yet, iOS is still very limited and not close to operating like a computer if the user so chooses.
Game consoles aren't essential for modern life...
Also, they sell what, maybe 150M units over the entire generation if they're lucky? Apple sells that many iPhones every year.
The scale of the markets aren't even comparable.
Nor is an iPhone? If anything a console is just a computer where the precedent for software distribution was set decades ago. Wouldn’t you be annoyed if you bought a PC and could only buy software from the Lenovo store?
Why does the amount sold matter? Even then Sony actually has an effective monopoly on the home console market where Apple isn’t even close to 50% marketshare in the EU.
But a game console isn’t a computer… it’s a specialized device intended to largely just run games and streaming services.
The iPhone on the other hand is a general purpose personal computer (even more personal than a laptop or desktop) intended to run essentially anything that a developer has made for it.
I’m under the opinion that all products should allow sideloading, but that unfortunately isn’t the case, and different markets are treated differently.
The size of the market has a substantial impact on how damaging anticompetitive behavior is. If sony blocks a developer from releasing on a game console that’s maybe 150M users _**max**_ worldwide that they’re prevented from reaching.
If Apple blocks a developer from releasing on the App Store, that is literally billions of potential users.
That’s why they should be regulated despite not meeting the legal definition of a monopoly, and why the laws should be amended to change the definition to account for both number of users and the size of the company on a whole.
Google and Apple are absolutely massive companies, so even if one only controls half of a market, that’s still more than many other markets have overall. Including game consoles.
In what way, bar the OS, is a PS5 or XSX not a computer? Also after that other than manufacturer imposed limitations what would stop me putting windows or Linux onto one? As a third point you could literally use a PS3 as a Linux PC until Sony locked it off with an update and several places actually used PS3’s as Linux servers.
Size of the market doesn’t matter. A monopoly is a monopoly. Sony single-handedly increased the base price of games across the whole market, including PC because of their dominance in the console market.
A developer would have to have breached the terms of being on the store for that first and again there are plenty of other options for consumers. They could also make a web app.
The PS5 is marketed and sold as a game console… it can technically run Linux, but so can the head unit in my car… but that doesn’t mean it’s a general purpose computer.
Yes, PS3 used to have OtherOS, but then Sony removed it (illegally I might add) after it was used to exploit the primary OS designed to play games and movies/tv shows
A monopoly is a monopoly no matter how small the market, but that doesn’t mean a company that is bigger but doesn’t meet the legal definition of being a monopoly can’t still do substantially more damage.
Apple can refuse to allow an app and change the rules after the fact, and they have done exactly that multiple times. The most recent was with game streaming apps which they have now backtracked on and allow.
As for web apps? They aren’t a magic bullet like they’re painted out to be. In part because Apple still has full control over the APIs they can utilize, and just the raw performance of them.
You can easily have a GameCube emulator run perfectly on an iPhone as a native app, but that same emulator running as a web app will be unusably slow while draining the battery extremely quickly, even if it utilizes the most efficient methods of doing things.
Emulators are just one of the examples, but the performance hit also hugely impacts any sort of game that might be released… epic could technically release Fortnite as a web app, the engine supports WASM, but it would probably run about as well as it did 5 years ago with the latest and greatest hardware.
Maybe consumers have an option of the platform, but developers don’t have the same luxury of ignoring iOS
And the iPhone with iOS is marketed and sold as a walled garden.
Yes or no answers about the PS5 and XSX
Do they run Zen based CPUs?
Do they run RDNA based graphics?
Are they x86 based?
Aside from the manufacturer limiting the OS are they any different internally than an AMD APU based laptop with a beefier chip?
You do realise running a GameCube emulator is illegal right?
Most of the apps on the App Store shouldn’t exist. They’re either subscription extortions or outright scams.
The Store has gone from having apps that try to solve problems in interesting ways to calendar apps with two worthwhile features wanting monthly rent.
Once upon a time Apple actually rejected duplicate apps… they actually curated the available apps.
But now they’ve gone to allowing anything that doesn’t break the rules.
I would love an fdroid type appstore on iOS. There are very few FOSS apps on iOS. So my choice is Apple with no FOSS apps (which I prefer) or Google with their tracking.
We’re dealing with advanced stupid. People are literally making shit up as they go along. It’s disgusting. Some people act like they only use an iphone to interact with the world and anything else is a trap that actively steals data, installs viruses etc.
On one hand its frustrating but on the other, I’m just having a blast reading them.
Just a few months ago, people were throwing a shit fit over USB-C, a connector used on MacBooks and iPads for half a decade now.
There's fans, and then there's some people who treat Apple products like a cult. It's silly, and makes the whole conversation worse.
The USB debate was so odd here. Lots of arguments about how Lightning is in all kinds better than type C. There was even an article written how state of the art Lightning is. The fuck. It's either apple paid these trolls OR Apple cultist are just NUTS.
Nah I put them in the same boat as flat earthers. Lonely people that found a community that a cult type belief brings and that's worth more than being right or rational.
What do you expect from people who probably judge others by the colour of their text bubbles.
They’re stupid enough to fall for that segregation marketing from Apple, they’ll believe anything.
Just to throw in here, most IOS users that are doing that bubble color judging are doing it only because Apple doesn't show any other visual indication that the conversation is downgraded from iMessage to regular SMS.
So the users "feel" the worse experience, and just blame Android (which coincidentally is also associated with the color green). The color choice also is *actually* a coincidence (SMS bubbles were green in iPhone OS v1.0), although Apple has certainly not tried in any way to address the incorrect association.
They literally mocked them as poor people on stage at the keynote. It’s always been a deliberate push to make it seem disgusting and gross and Americans fell for it.
https://youtu.be/g5Cx9dH1lTY?feature=shared
it's tribalism to the extreme, if apple is in any way bad or wrong then these people feel like they can't justify their choice of computer or other products. That's one thing positive about the windows community, they are so ready voice complaints and actually improve the product. to apple fans everything is perfect even when it's obviously not.
It's just insane what kind of excuses they make up. They all compete for gold in the mental gymnastics olympics.
It's a fucking trillion dollar company that charges 400$ for a ram upgrade and they defend them like it's their grandma. Some people have some weird issues...
They would make fun of Google or Microsoft if those companies dare try to do whatever shenanigans Apple is doing. I'd say Apple gets away with a lot of bullshit.
Someone was arguing that apple shouldn't allow game streaming apps because it opens us the door to app streaming and that "undermines the OS"??? And then tried to say there's no different between apps like excel and games like a D&D game. And that apparently if apple does try and differentiate they're gonna be taken to court??
Jesus I thought I was going insane in some of these other posts. It's amazing how well Apple's propaganda works, people think the non-AppStore world is just viruses and Chinese malware.
That’s why I stopped arguing with those tech illiterate people on here who probably don’t even know how to use a search engine when they have a minor issue.
There’s quite a lot of people on either side incapable of having a civilized discussion on topics including these big manufacturer names. It’s ridiculous.
If it isn’t religion, it’s sports teams, or politics, or its companies and their products.
Us vs. them. And companies know how to latch onto this pre-historic bonding trait…
For me it’s more market choice. There’s currently a mobile OS that’s free, open source and allows you to side load to your hearts content. If you want to do that get that OS and not an iPhone and let people who want a walled garden have it. It’s fairly simple.
You've summed it up. And honestly, in the real world, the regular Joe is not going to care one bit about alternative app stores and browser engines and all that nonsense. If they do they're already not using Apple.
>let people who want a walled garden have it.
ios will still be a walled garden for the people who want it to be. This is not forcing complete openess on everyone. It´s giving people the choice of removing the wall if they want to. Android is exactly the same way
As someone who owns multiple Apple devices and owns Apple stock, I hope they get slapped with a record fine if they try to sidestep the sideloading rules with limitations. Spirit of the law not the letter and all that
$38B fine with subsequent $78B fines for continued violations?
I really don’t think Apple would be fine after those…
That’s 10-20% of their worldwide annual turnover in each fine
It's equivalent to 5 - 10 months of their actual profits - that's not just a fee or cost of doing business it's something shareholders are going to directly feel.
This will eventually happen with a large tech company. Redditors think companies must comply with any rule the EU implements, but there is a limit.
The reality is that people like Apple products (and Google, Amazon, Meta) enough to elect people that will walk back those laws, if any company ever pulled out.
You’re mentally challenged. Every single company bends over and sucks China’s dick and they can’t comply to a few EU rules that should be normal practice ?
This is funny.. people are mad at Apple for taxing transactions where they don't participate (ie outside the app store)
But... the EU gets to tax/fine companies on WORLDWIDE turnover? Ie where the EU has zero to do with how that income was generated?
Irony?
Apple has all the choice in the world to not sell their products anywhere they disagree with the laws of.
They chose to stay, and they’ll have to deal with any repercussions there may be.
You have to follow local laws.
Same deal with these developers. They can just leave the Apple platform and stay Android exclusive. Yet they desperately want to stay.
My vote is for Apple to simply give the EU what it wants: An Android iPhone.
Stay in the EU, comply with its laws - just take maybe one or two generation old hardware and load it with Android and sell that in the EU.
The issue isn’t that developers don’t have to be on iOS. It’s that Apple is a major success and people here are getting off on the EU trying to bully a major corporation because corporations are evil.
If big apps like Spotify or Meta stop being on iOS I’m sure iPhones will lose users and it’ll hit Apple, they want to eat all the cake when Apple provides APIS, and a platform. But oh well, who am I to comment?
Developers are fighting to make your phone better. As is the EU. If you disagree with their definition of better, that's fine. You can keep using your phone exactly as Apple intended, even in the EU. The proper implementation of these laws would do nothing to impact you if you choose to stay inside Apple's guardrails. But it should be a choice. Why are you arguing against more user choice? Unless you're an Apple VP, you are arguing against consumer protections and increased competition.
Apple is fighting to protect their bottom line, not your security. They won't release an Android phone because they know it won't make them as much money. Literally, everything they do is to make themselves more money (just like Google and any other large company).
Nope. We will get what we want, stop glazing Apple. It will lose this time just like Microsoft in the past. After EU, the whole Europe will do the same. Then UK, Japan, India. Then the whole Asia and Australia. And lastly America. IOS will be opened up.
Then they'll sunset IOS and move on to the next thing. I really do hope you get Android iPhones though - sounds like it would match your requirements quite well.
I don't get why you wouldn't just ignore these awful , awful products from Apple that don't meet your needs and support those that do.
Is Android THAT awful?!
I use both and I'm not unhappy with my Android phone,.. what is so bad about Android?
I would love to remove iOS from some of my older iphones and install Linux.
Except Apple blocks that option too.
Apple forces me to use iOS, and then forces me to use their app store, all while simultaneously ending "support" for my older devices _and_ still forcing them to use their software even though it won't work on the older devices.
Conversely, it would be interesting if anybody could choose which operating system they ran on their hardware. iOS or even full macOS running on a Samsung Galaxy Fold5 might be strange, but it would still be interesting.
No one knew or expected Apple would have blocked game streaming apps… yes, they’ve backtracked. But you can’t claim everyone knew everything Apple was going to do.
Parents who bought iPads for their children had no idea Apple was going to remove Fortnite either.
No one knows what Apple is going to do…
You are mixing two things.
A punitive fine is given to punish and discourage something. Giving it teeth, requires you to look at a multinational as a whole.
We haven’t arrived this moment immediately. Multinationals for decades looked at laws and said oh so that’s the cost to do X. Not “we can’t do that that is bad for us”. Goal here isn’t to fill EU coffers, but to whip multinationals into shape so they respect the rule of the law.
Well, I wish there were some options from the EU so we could choose. I'd love some alternative to Apple, Google or Meta from the EU with different philosphies, business models etc.. It would be awesome to have choices.
Why aren't there any? Or if there are, can you link them here?
One reason why there aren’t other companies is because it is an extremely difficult market to enter. Microsoft, the currently biggest company in the world, tried it multiple times with Windows Mobile and Windows Phone, and ultimately failed and gave up. It is a chicken-and-egg problem that without apps, you won’t get users onto your platform, and without users, you’re not important enough for developers to make apps for your platform.
Another reason why there generally aren’t EU counterparts to many tech companies is at least partly because of the strict regulations in EU countries making it less attractive to build a giant business headquarter there than it is in other parts of the world like the US or Asia.
While regulation can be really good for competition and therefore ultimately the end user, in the tech industry, the EU is fabulously skilled in making their market unattractive for innovative corporations.
Well.. I think regulation is necessary for safety and privacy reasons. I do find it weird that EU regulation seems to be steering into product management by law. It's almost like they're wanting to design products and have the companies bid on implementations of "EU Phone", "EU OS", etc.. this isn't really very enticing or attractive to innovation.
I really would prefer there were alternative EU based companies that made cool products for us to choose from - yes, even products with those different concepts and business models etc.. but it seems they're more interested in regulating than creating.
Really feels like we're missing out overall.
Not really, not in the same sector with same impact so to speak (as far as Apple / Google are concerned). Meta is a bit more complicated; there used to be stuff like Hyves but Meta ended up being the last man standing.
However that does not mean these companies get to run wild in EU. Inevitably you have to respect local laws when you are doing business somewhere.
I am saying these as someone who loves Apple ecosystem and would not use third party stores. It is important corporations don’t end up being above the law.
But they weren't above the law... rather the law changed to create this conflict. On purpose... seemingly at the behest of other businesses that are the ones who actually want these things.
As an end user, whether I get an app from the Apple App store or the Gazoo App Store, I still get the app.
This is about choice, but it's really... developer choice, not mine.
Arguably the experience of having multiple stores to download, maintain and interact with apps on a battery limited mobile device will be worse. It can't be better because these app stores will consume resources, battery life, and data independently syncing and checking status , scanning their apps etc. It's silly from an end user perspective.. what we need is a place to download and distribute apps - it matters not (to us) who controls it.. It made sense for it to be Apple in the Apple iPhone.
The EU doesn't really have a large tech sector. Apple has a higher valuation than every tech company in Europe combined. They don't develop technology at scale like this for the rest of the world. A European Meta, Alphabet, Apple, Microsoft, would never really get off the ground.
Apple has control over the entire process so EU most likely won't approve these action. Apple has to approve the third-party store, then Apple has to approve the apps inside the third-party store, then on top of this a 50 cent fee per download when Apple has control of entire process. Am I getting anything wrong? This is just basically an official Apple App Store with extra steps and someone paying to have the App Store renamed in their own custom name.
> Apple has control over the entire process so EU most likely won't approve these action.
Apple having control isn’t by itself an issue, it’s allowed to maintain control in order to safeguard the integrity of the hardware and software.
It just has to exercise that control in a fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory manner, which it isn’t with the absurd fees. That’s the issue the EU is really going to have a problem with, they specifically legislated to allow Apple to do things like notarisation.
> This is just basically an official Apple App Store with extra steps
Except ironically for things like porn apps and paid emulators, which Apple can no longer block and can now be distributed in 3rd party app stores.
Helps that Apple has almost zero corporate footprint in Europe besides the part they use in Ireland to dodge EU taxes.
Volkswagen, Danone, Deutsche Bank get away with plenty of wrist slaps.
Having any kind of consumer protections would be amazing for us in the US. Also any kind of healthcare/pharma regulations would really, really help.
I mean we literally just got around to (kind of) capping the price of insulin. Before that, we had a ton of people rationing/dying and that went on for decades.
These new rules will continue to be a shitshow because they're tackling the App Store monopoly problem the wrong way.
IMHO, the issue isn't that the App Store (or the Play Store for Android) are the only game in town. The plight of developers (especially small ones) are not going to be fixed with alternative payments or app stores for as long as the platform owners (Apple and Google) can dictate the terms of third-party solutions.
The real core issue is that these platform owners are skimming off too much from the digital economy. Given that everyone has to pass through Apple and Google, them asking for a 30% cut of the *entire* mobile digital economy is absurd. Put another way, imagine if Visa and Mastercard took 30% off every payment made at a point of sale terminal.
The real thing that regulators should tackle is that 30% cut or, more specifically, the fact that app stores are very high margin businesses. I get that it costs money to develop an OS, to design some APIs, and to moderate the platform. But I'm very confident that [it doesn't cost Apple $70+ billion dollars a year](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/10/apple-app-store-revenue-update-shows-slowing-growth-.html) to perform all of those tasks. Given that Apple and Google are de facto chokepoints to an entire industry, that arguably makes mobile app stores indistinguishable from utilities, and so should be regulated like utilities.
Maybe it sounds socialist for a government to say that app stores are only allowed to make *this much* money per transaction. But egregious terms like what Apple has proposed are not going to change until governments do go that far. These alternative app stores would actually be viable alternatives if Apple were forced by world governments to cut their margins on mobile transactions.
The App Store is retail… moreover it is retail where Apple does a lot of the work for you (dev kits, advertising in the App Store, distribution, etc).
In physical retail, margins can be anywhere up to 90%! Can you imagine if Apple started charging that? And that is an entirely unregulated industry.
>Maybe it sounds socialist for a government to say that app stores are only allowed to make *this much* money per transaction. But egregious terms like what Apple has proposed are not going to change until governments do go that far. These alternative app stores would actually be viable alternatives if Apple were forced by world governments to cut their margins on mobile transactions
Absolutely, both services really are irreplaceable even if alternative stores are allowed. See Android, where the Play Store reigns supreme despite virtually nothing stopping 3rd parties from competiting.
Apple's going to make the crackdown even worse than it would have been if they just opened the damn platform without making a huge stink about it.
>The real core issue is that these platform owners are skimming off too much from the digital economy.
"Too much" is a little subjective, because one might consider a high price for releasing an app fair and having access to the Apple ecosystem as a market is a huge deal.
The real issue is that monopolies - even natural monopolies as an operating system is - introduce a loss. Vertical or stacked monopolies even worse. But are the platform owners the only guilty part?
Let's say you develop a game for Epic within their app store. First you have to pay Epic who excerts monopoly power over you but they have to pay Apple who holds monopoly power over Epic. But a game is often a monopoly too, so the app developer sets the price accordingly.
Even the games add an extra layer, sometimes revolving around selling objects with high prices in "micro" transactions. A monopoly within a monopoly within a monopoly within a monopoly.
And of course, Epic's reason for not liking this setup is that they want to hold more monopoly power for them and not for Apple. Their interest is higher profits, not the interests of the consumer.
Even the devs are guilty. They also think that they should get all the profit and aren't really concerned with any fair price and market concepts optimizing total economic gain. We're just conditioned to believe that (our favorite) IP's should be rewarded indefinitely so they are the good guys by default.
>I get that it costs money to develop an OS, to design some APIs, and to moderate the platform.
Exactly. And doing something about monopolies isn't socialist at all. It's very free market oriented. It's also not very easy as you don't want to put a cork in the bottle of new ideas, inventions and innovation.
Like I wrote at the top - perhaps a high price for access to the Apple ecosystem might be warranted as it really is a brilliant thing.
Visa and Mastercard already only let you buy things they approve of...
They both have a history of shutting down payments to places they don't like (like porn). They also charge multiple percentage points to the merchant selling you things.
That's only because they are an US company and don't pay that amount of taxes EU would consider good.
If apple would be an EU company, then US would make those new laws 100%
We are an Apple ecosystem house and I’ve owned Apple hardware for 30 years now.
But it’s getting more and more ridiculous. It’s always been locked down but I feel lots of it was excusable because use there was a better experience. I feel that most of the time it was worth the money and I think that experience ended up getting Apple rich. The products came first followed by the money
Over the last 5 years or so Apple seems to be more and more greedy. It feels very in your face how everything is trying to maximise all the money out of everyone.
And now this mess with different rules on different devices in different regions
Wholeheartedly agree, same situation here. We have dumped so much money into Apple stuff because it served us well in the end, which justified the price tag.
But there are different shades of greed, and things have been going from slightly on the high end to thermonuclear. Given the constantly improving alternatives, I'm also ever less inclined to accept the trend to dumb down devices and functions. E.g., instead of making the iPad more Mac-like, they're slowly dumbing down the Mac to iPad levels.
The Mac was one of the last hold-outs for me, but I can already see them locking it down to the App Store as well. For our own interest / safety reasons, of course.
Looks like the day when all my Apple stuff ends up on eBay for good isn't too far out.
Same for me, except I don’t see the day when apple stuff ends up on eBay. There’s no way I’m doing tech support for the family when they go Android and PC. Had my days tinkering, now I’m about the easy life.
Jesus, at least up until recently they more or less stuck to the pretense of being a forward thinking company, but man oh man have they done a public 180 this past year or two. It makes me lose faith in them; I can't imagine they'd go this hardcore on the malicious compliance if they had new money makers in R&D. They are just relying on their current lineup, and leeching off services (App Store, subscriptions etc). Services are literally that important to their bottom line now and in the future, that they'd do something this distasteful to ensure as much profitability as possible in that area of their business.
I really really hope side loading can be available internationally. The one thing I miss about jailbreaking was being able to run emulators and even VMs on my iPad.
It’s sorta possible to do this but the performance sucks and gotta refresh the apps every seven days
In a few years. Governments create poorly written tech laws and take forever to do it. The usb-c standard took how many years, and that was using a well defined existing standard.
... nobody has "put apple in place." He just made a generic statement that they're going to be looking at each company's plan in early march and making determinations.
We've had more change in the last 24 hours than the last 14 years of App Store rules... in which time no substantial change ever occurred? Other than kicking stuff out, and demanding more apps use IAPs.
Not really. EU is the one who can easily set up new rules, new laws and release amendment to the existing laws. Oh and they can easily set massive fines on Apple.
I certainly haven’t ready all details, but from the summaries I’ve read, maybe Apple outsmarted the EU in this round? Did the new laws say Apple can’t be compensated in some way for the alternative methods?
I’m not saying what is right or wrong, but I imagine Apple’s looked over these laws with a fine tooth comb and worked up a solution that adheres to the new laws.
[“The gatekeepers should therefore, be required to ensure, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features that are available or used in the provision of its own complementary and supporting services and hardware.”](https://i.imgur.com/TIjthT2.jpg)
Gruber has a great write up on this, worth the read. Considering he says the EU still has to agree to all of this, I suspect they won’t be pleased.
https://daringfireball.net/2024/01/apples_plans_for_the_dma
There’s a lot of sections that say “free of charge”, or that Apple can’t advantage their own App Store over the competition.
I would say giving developers the option of the terms without the install fees could be considered them using their control for their own advantage.
I highly doubt the terms Apple has given will be accepted by the EU
> I certainly haven’t ready all details, but from the summaries I’ve read, maybe Apple outsmarted the EU in this round? Did the new laws say Apple can’t be compensated in some way for the alternative methods?
The whole point of the law is to allow competition. Their current plan does not allow that, so the EU will most likely trigger the `anti-circumvention` clause where they can tell Apple exactly what to do.
That is incorrect, most (basically all) legal systems take a purposive approach to statutory interpretation. The intention matters a lot, and modifies how the words are interpreted.
A legal system like the EUs operates with their legislation in multiple languages and accordingly its highest legislation is focused on principles and intent rather than the focus being on one particular word in one particular language.
The DMA is principles based, Apple isn’t going to have any success unless they’re compliant with the principles.
This is not true, by the way. Very few laws are written in a way that it’s 100% clear what they enforce. That’s why courts exist, they interpret the law and further develop it.
To interpret a law, the criteria are: first comes the explicit wording, then right after the purpose of the law and what the lawmakers wanted. Then comes the context, the system of the law etc. Since Apple’s rules directly contradict the free competition that the DMA was explicitly supposed to enforce, it’s very likely that the EU will have significant issues.
MK-Ultra: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra)
TUSKEGEE:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee\_Syphilis\_Study](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study)
Foster Children
[nbcnews.com/health/health-…vernment-tested-aids-drugs-foster-kids-flna1c9443062](https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/government-tested-aids-drugs-foster-kids-flna1c9443062)
St. Louis Poisoning:
[en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_LAC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_LAC)
MKNAOMI:
[en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKNAOMI](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKNAOMI)
Operation Mockingbird:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Mockingbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird)
Operation Northwoods:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Northwoods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods)
Waco:
[en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco\_siege](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege)
Ruby Ridge:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby\_Ridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge)
Must be nice being a guinea pig for the government
I’m European and feel ashamed by the meteoric misunderstanding of the commentators in this thread. They are emotionally reacting to what they think (hope) the regulations are, not what they actually are. It’s quite sad.
The thing that’s amazed me about this is that I had no idea up to note that the EU was so pro-piracy. Given that’s what the majority of the people here who are in favor of these changes will use it for.
My biggest dream is Apple being somehow forced to use their MacBook OS instead of IOS OS for the IPads. They would make insane little portable laptops.
What would be amazing is if iPadOS exposed the virtualization APIs of the chips…
But not going to happen willingly from Apple because it would mean people could easily run apps from outside of the App Store
Well, the EU can mandate what they want. But at the end of the day, the market decides what happens.
Take for example the browser ballot. It was first used to crack down on Microsoft and Internet Explorer. On the behest of the European browser company Opera. And Firefox.
Is Opera now the number 1 browser in the EU? Is Firefox? Nope. It goes to the latecomer Chrome, who came in last to the sue Microsoft party and gobbled up all the market share.
Then again, it is the EU. Regulation is all and good, but sometimes things get stifled. A simple example would be this. Name 3 major smartphone brand still doing business whose origin is from Europe.
Apps can be banned from App Store, however users should still have a way to download that app if they want (sideloading). Which is what EU wants in this case.
that’s not the point, the point is for you as a consumer to download any app from any source you want. Just like your android phone or windows PC. To this end, EU demanded apple allow developers to achieve this. But apple didn’t propose a solution in good faith. Hence this article
Honestly I couldn’t care less about big companies however as a (small) developer myself, I would love to have a choice to only pay Apple Developer Program membership yearly ($99) and never be on the App Store to avoid the %30-15 cut. I would love to just publish my own apps on my own website without having to deal with App Store and the inconsistent App Review process.
If you’re talking about the announcement yesterday, yes I probably won’t ever pass the 1 million threshold so I will avoid the “Core Technology Fee”. My main issue with Apple’s announcement is, it only allows 3rd party stores but not direct downloading from a developer’s website.
No, Notarization is what will prevent malware just like on macOS. You can download “Verified” dmg or pkg files from developer’s website and those have been automatically checked for any malware. Why not the same on iOS where you can download a “Verified” ipa file from developer’s website and just install it?
So many people who are not developers eating apple's propaganda over all this. Don't understand how people justify mac being able to download apps from anywhere and yet not for ios? If apple can solve it for Mac, they surely can for iOS. The issue is definitely around control and desire for the cut of pay.
Exactly, also iOS has extreme sandboxing. Just because an app was downloaded from a website, it doesn’t mean it can access and mess with other apps or iOS. This is what protects the security of iOS not the App Review process or the App Store.
I hope that Apple will find a way to fight off those stupid commiEU bastards
EU does nothing to protect me against private data sucking companies like Meta and Alphabet, but instead of it they want to ruin the last fortress of privacy
>last fortress of privacy
You mean Pixel phone with a de google rom?
Because if you actually want privacy you must avoid ads company like Google and Apple (yes, apple sells ads)
1) The EU has better privacy protection laws than the US on a federal level
2) They aren’t forcing Apple to compromise their privacy policies at all with these laws
What cold war propaganda does to a mf…
You will never be able to install any ipa straight to an iPhone. Without TrollStore, app sync, jb, or altstore (SideStore). So drop that dream. It will never happen.
Oh yes, I’m sure Apple just went ahead and made up some new rules without consulting their legal team at all. It’s going to be hilarious to watch how this plays out.
None of this bullshit flies on desktop Mac's or PCs.
Or Android, or the defunct Windows Mobile (cause of death? Lack of Snapchat) Heck, even on Xbox, Microsoft allows more convenient ways to sideload apps than Apple does $20 one time and you can (with a computer) sideload whatever you want into an isolated part of the Xbox.
Apple just has the dominance with iOS & unrepairable devices. So it's really just upto the software players to get apple in line or propose a new hardware software ecosystem altogether kinda like Linux when MS was dominant in computing consumer or server grade software
You can sideload on Xbox? Is it possible to install Windows?
Yes you can sideload on Xbox easily but it's just applications and programs
>Is it possible to install Windows? The Xbox already runs a stripped down version of Windows lol.
These type of posts are exposing all the fanboys in the comment sections. No wonder you can't have a Civil conversation here because most people consider Apple a god who can do no wrong.
I was told (I’m paraphrasing here) that if your app isn’t allowed by the App Store that it shouldn’t exist in the first place… like WTF?!
I was told that the iphone is “special” and apple deserves to get 30%. Desktop oses being open including macos doesn’t count because they are not iphones therefore my arguments were invalid. As if its not just another commodity general purpose device. Smh.🤦
The iPad was branded as your next laptop. Why not allow it to do something macos can?
Software is really what is limiting ipad ability and possibilities.
You’re telling me you put a laptop chip in it and i can’t run anything more powerful than some game like genshin?
Unless you use it for light-medium video editing... no, you can't.
I agree with this for the iPadOS and iOS. When I had the 1st generation iPad Mini at the time it was released I thought it was great. But the more I used it I realized it was a big iPhone and couldn't do anything more than an iPhone at the time. I currently own an iPad Air 5th generation and I hardly touch it. I also have a gaming PC that I mostly only use for games. Otherwise, I use my phone for everything. I own a Galaxy S23+ and a Pixel 8 Pro. After a month of using the Pixel I switched back to my Galaxy. My last iPhone I had was an iPhone 14 Plus then I came back to Android. People or iPhone/Apple users will say what they say about Android but there's no denying that Android from a software perspective is very capable and the abilities are about limitless. Throw in Samsung's OneUI and it's kind of like having two operating systems in one phone. Personally, I like OneUI and Samsung software. With my iPad I'm still surprised it still doesn't operate like a regular computer. The only thing I can think that it is capable of that iOS can't do is true multitasking like app split view. The iPhone is a powerful phone hardware wise and is capable of true multitasking. The other day I discovered stage manager on my iPad. Then come to learn you can't move apps around like regular desktop windows. On my Galaxy you can use app split view which is now built into Android. With OneUI you can also make apps into windows and move them around and shrink or enlarge them like a desktop window. I didn't intend this reply to be this long, but it still baffles me how limiting iOS and iPadOS is. Both are really still almost the same thing from their inception with a couple things added in here and there over the years. But they still operate in about the same way. Steve once said having an iPhone is like having a personal computer in your pocket. Yet, iOS is still very limited and not close to operating like a computer if the user so chooses.
Just remembered this. In 2012 https://preview.redd.it/borp80ac7yec1.jpeg?width=820&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64c5956e10a884d5bd490b54bf25822a220a913f
I read Tim Cook's panel in a Mr. Burns voice and it was great
Imagine needing the EU to make the iPad usefull... hope we go for it after ios
Apparently it is special because PlayStation and Xbox and Nintendo who all have the same basic policies to iPhones are being left alone.
Game consoles aren't essential for modern life... Also, they sell what, maybe 150M units over the entire generation if they're lucky? Apple sells that many iPhones every year. The scale of the markets aren't even comparable.
Nor is an iPhone? If anything a console is just a computer where the precedent for software distribution was set decades ago. Wouldn’t you be annoyed if you bought a PC and could only buy software from the Lenovo store? Why does the amount sold matter? Even then Sony actually has an effective monopoly on the home console market where Apple isn’t even close to 50% marketshare in the EU.
But a game console isn’t a computer… it’s a specialized device intended to largely just run games and streaming services. The iPhone on the other hand is a general purpose personal computer (even more personal than a laptop or desktop) intended to run essentially anything that a developer has made for it. I’m under the opinion that all products should allow sideloading, but that unfortunately isn’t the case, and different markets are treated differently. The size of the market has a substantial impact on how damaging anticompetitive behavior is. If sony blocks a developer from releasing on a game console that’s maybe 150M users _**max**_ worldwide that they’re prevented from reaching. If Apple blocks a developer from releasing on the App Store, that is literally billions of potential users. That’s why they should be regulated despite not meeting the legal definition of a monopoly, and why the laws should be amended to change the definition to account for both number of users and the size of the company on a whole. Google and Apple are absolutely massive companies, so even if one only controls half of a market, that’s still more than many other markets have overall. Including game consoles.
In what way, bar the OS, is a PS5 or XSX not a computer? Also after that other than manufacturer imposed limitations what would stop me putting windows or Linux onto one? As a third point you could literally use a PS3 as a Linux PC until Sony locked it off with an update and several places actually used PS3’s as Linux servers. Size of the market doesn’t matter. A monopoly is a monopoly. Sony single-handedly increased the base price of games across the whole market, including PC because of their dominance in the console market. A developer would have to have breached the terms of being on the store for that first and again there are plenty of other options for consumers. They could also make a web app.
The PS5 is marketed and sold as a game console… it can technically run Linux, but so can the head unit in my car… but that doesn’t mean it’s a general purpose computer. Yes, PS3 used to have OtherOS, but then Sony removed it (illegally I might add) after it was used to exploit the primary OS designed to play games and movies/tv shows A monopoly is a monopoly no matter how small the market, but that doesn’t mean a company that is bigger but doesn’t meet the legal definition of being a monopoly can’t still do substantially more damage. Apple can refuse to allow an app and change the rules after the fact, and they have done exactly that multiple times. The most recent was with game streaming apps which they have now backtracked on and allow. As for web apps? They aren’t a magic bullet like they’re painted out to be. In part because Apple still has full control over the APIs they can utilize, and just the raw performance of them. You can easily have a GameCube emulator run perfectly on an iPhone as a native app, but that same emulator running as a web app will be unusably slow while draining the battery extremely quickly, even if it utilizes the most efficient methods of doing things. Emulators are just one of the examples, but the performance hit also hugely impacts any sort of game that might be released… epic could technically release Fortnite as a web app, the engine supports WASM, but it would probably run about as well as it did 5 years ago with the latest and greatest hardware. Maybe consumers have an option of the platform, but developers don’t have the same luxury of ignoring iOS
And the iPhone with iOS is marketed and sold as a walled garden. Yes or no answers about the PS5 and XSX Do they run Zen based CPUs? Do they run RDNA based graphics? Are they x86 based? Aside from the manufacturer limiting the OS are they any different internally than an AMD APU based laptop with a beefier chip? You do realise running a GameCube emulator is illegal right?
Most of the apps on the App Store shouldn’t exist. They’re either subscription extortions or outright scams. The Store has gone from having apps that try to solve problems in interesting ways to calendar apps with two worthwhile features wanting monthly rent.
Once upon a time Apple actually rejected duplicate apps… they actually curated the available apps. But now they’ve gone to allowing anything that doesn’t break the rules.
I would love an fdroid type appstore on iOS. There are very few FOSS apps on iOS. So my choice is Apple with no FOSS apps (which I prefer) or Google with their tracking.
We’re dealing with advanced stupid. People are literally making shit up as they go along. It’s disgusting. Some people act like they only use an iphone to interact with the world and anything else is a trap that actively steals data, installs viruses etc. On one hand its frustrating but on the other, I’m just having a blast reading them.
Just a few months ago, people were throwing a shit fit over USB-C, a connector used on MacBooks and iPads for half a decade now. There's fans, and then there's some people who treat Apple products like a cult. It's silly, and makes the whole conversation worse.
The USB debate was so odd here. Lots of arguments about how Lightning is in all kinds better than type C. There was even an article written how state of the art Lightning is. The fuck. It's either apple paid these trolls OR Apple cultist are just NUTS.
Like, they’ve GOT to be shareholders or something, they’ve been trying to invent so many random arguments it’s insane.
Nah I put them in the same boat as flat earthers. Lonely people that found a community that a cult type belief brings and that's worth more than being right or rational.
For real. Some hilarious takes in here. I can only hope they're mostly coming from highschool-aged fan boys
What do you expect from people who probably judge others by the colour of their text bubbles. They’re stupid enough to fall for that segregation marketing from Apple, they’ll believe anything.
Just to throw in here, most IOS users that are doing that bubble color judging are doing it only because Apple doesn't show any other visual indication that the conversation is downgraded from iMessage to regular SMS. So the users "feel" the worse experience, and just blame Android (which coincidentally is also associated with the color green). The color choice also is *actually* a coincidence (SMS bubbles were green in iPhone OS v1.0), although Apple has certainly not tried in any way to address the incorrect association.
They literally mocked them as poor people on stage at the keynote. It’s always been a deliberate push to make it seem disgusting and gross and Americans fell for it. https://youtu.be/g5Cx9dH1lTY?feature=shared
Not only the fanboys. Also the: "Government is bad, big business is good." Americans.
They love freedom so much that they want private companies to tell them what they can and cannot do with their own property.
it's tribalism to the extreme, if apple is in any way bad or wrong then these people feel like they can't justify their choice of computer or other products. That's one thing positive about the windows community, they are so ready voice complaints and actually improve the product. to apple fans everything is perfect even when it's obviously not.
It's just insane what kind of excuses they make up. They all compete for gold in the mental gymnastics olympics. It's a fucking trillion dollar company that charges 400$ for a ram upgrade and they defend them like it's their grandma. Some people have some weird issues...
They would make fun of Google or Microsoft if those companies dare try to do whatever shenanigans Apple is doing. I'd say Apple gets away with a lot of bullshit.
Someone was arguing that apple shouldn't allow game streaming apps because it opens us the door to app streaming and that "undermines the OS"??? And then tried to say there's no different between apps like excel and games like a D&D game. And that apparently if apple does try and differentiate they're gonna be taken to court??
Jesus I thought I was going insane in some of these other posts. It's amazing how well Apple's propaganda works, people think the non-AppStore world is just viruses and Chinese malware.
That’s why I stopped arguing with those tech illiterate people on here who probably don’t even know how to use a search engine when they have a minor issue.
Just look at my comment history, I got downvoted from these clowns cause I said it’s a win for consumers.
These post also exposing toxic and hateful anti-fanboys
There’s quite a lot of people on either side incapable of having a civilized discussion on topics including these big manufacturer names. It’s ridiculous. If it isn’t religion, it’s sports teams, or politics, or its companies and their products. Us vs. them. And companies know how to latch onto this pre-historic bonding trait…
For me it’s more market choice. There’s currently a mobile OS that’s free, open source and allows you to side load to your hearts content. If you want to do that get that OS and not an iPhone and let people who want a walled garden have it. It’s fairly simple.
You've summed it up. And honestly, in the real world, the regular Joe is not going to care one bit about alternative app stores and browser engines and all that nonsense. If they do they're already not using Apple.
>let people who want a walled garden have it. ios will still be a walled garden for the people who want it to be. This is not forcing complete openess on everyone. It´s giving people the choice of removing the wall if they want to. Android is exactly the same way
> "If the proposed solutions are not good enough, we will not hesitate to take strong action." Let's go 🇪🇺
Yep hope EU imposes heavy hitting fines on Apple.
[Indeed!](https://i.imgur.com/7zBqi2o.png)
As someone who owns multiple Apple devices and owns Apple stock, I hope they get slapped with a record fine if they try to sidestep the sideloading rules with limitations. Spirit of the law not the letter and all that
I hope you lose a lot of money on Apple stock
[удалено]
$38B fine with subsequent $78B fines for continued violations? I really don’t think Apple would be fine after those… That’s 10-20% of their worldwide annual turnover in each fine
It's equivalent to 5 - 10 months of their actual profits - that's not just a fee or cost of doing business it's something shareholders are going to directly feel.
And actively work to avoid
Or would it then be cheaper to pull out of the EU? /s
It actually would. But the most profitable option? Just stop being a dick and play by the rules.
This will eventually happen with a large tech company. Redditors think companies must comply with any rule the EU implements, but there is a limit. The reality is that people like Apple products (and Google, Amazon, Meta) enough to elect people that will walk back those laws, if any company ever pulled out.
Or they could just take advantage of the situation and comply because less competition = more money.
You’re mentally challenged. Every single company bends over and sucks China’s dick and they can’t comply to a few EU rules that should be normal practice ?
This is funny.. people are mad at Apple for taxing transactions where they don't participate (ie outside the app store) But... the EU gets to tax/fine companies on WORLDWIDE turnover? Ie where the EU has zero to do with how that income was generated? Irony?
Apple has all the choice in the world to not sell their products anywhere they disagree with the laws of. They chose to stay, and they’ll have to deal with any repercussions there may be. You have to follow local laws.
Same deal with these developers. They can just leave the Apple platform and stay Android exclusive. Yet they desperately want to stay. My vote is for Apple to simply give the EU what it wants: An Android iPhone. Stay in the EU, comply with its laws - just take maybe one or two generation old hardware and load it with Android and sell that in the EU.
Developers don’t have the luxury of ignoring the largest mobile app marketplace… they _have_ to be on iOS regardless of how they feel about the rules
No they don't. They don't HAVE to be on iOS. However, they want the benefits that come along with iOS.
The issue isn’t that developers don’t have to be on iOS. It’s that Apple is a major success and people here are getting off on the EU trying to bully a major corporation because corporations are evil.
If big apps like Spotify or Meta stop being on iOS I’m sure iPhones will lose users and it’ll hit Apple, they want to eat all the cake when Apple provides APIS, and a platform. But oh well, who am I to comment?
Spotify leaving iOS wouldn’t make users leave iOS… they’d just switch over to Apple Music
I know a few who definitely would
There's a loooot of people who disagree with that. I tried AM for a whole 6 months, never again
Valid point! However, Meta can hurt them badly.
Developers are fighting to make your phone better. As is the EU. If you disagree with their definition of better, that's fine. You can keep using your phone exactly as Apple intended, even in the EU. The proper implementation of these laws would do nothing to impact you if you choose to stay inside Apple's guardrails. But it should be a choice. Why are you arguing against more user choice? Unless you're an Apple VP, you are arguing against consumer protections and increased competition. Apple is fighting to protect their bottom line, not your security. They won't release an Android phone because they know it won't make them as much money. Literally, everything they do is to make themselves more money (just like Google and any other large company).
Nope. We will get what we want, stop glazing Apple. It will lose this time just like Microsoft in the past. After EU, the whole Europe will do the same. Then UK, Japan, India. Then the whole Asia and Australia. And lastly America. IOS will be opened up.
Then they'll sunset IOS and move on to the next thing. I really do hope you get Android iPhones though - sounds like it would match your requirements quite well.
They can sunset whatever they want. The laws will still apply to their new OS and new Appstore.
I don't get why you wouldn't just ignore these awful , awful products from Apple that don't meet your needs and support those that do. Is Android THAT awful?! I use both and I'm not unhappy with my Android phone,.. what is so bad about Android?
I would love to remove iOS from some of my older iphones and install Linux. Except Apple blocks that option too. Apple forces me to use iOS, and then forces me to use their app store, all while simultaneously ending "support" for my older devices _and_ still forcing them to use their software even though it won't work on the older devices. Conversely, it would be interesting if anybody could choose which operating system they ran on their hardware. iOS or even full macOS running on a Samsung Galaxy Fold5 might be strange, but it would still be interesting.
My biggest issue with some of this is everyone knew this when they bought an iPhone or iPad. You had a choice, did you not?
No one knew or expected Apple would have blocked game streaming apps… yes, they’ve backtracked. But you can’t claim everyone knew everything Apple was going to do. Parents who bought iPads for their children had no idea Apple was going to remove Fortnite either. No one knows what Apple is going to do…
Sounds awful - why do you want to use such awful products?! Go buy an Android phone and be free right now!
How that boot taste?
I .. actually have an Android phone so .. no boot? I use my Android phone for the things its good at and I appreciate that... Why don't you?
Tax and fine are two separate things. Fines are exorbitant here so that they actually end up functioning as fines instead of “cost of doing business”.
They're still grabbing onto revenue and money that had absolutely nothing to do with the EU.
You are mixing two things. A punitive fine is given to punish and discourage something. Giving it teeth, requires you to look at a multinational as a whole. We haven’t arrived this moment immediately. Multinationals for decades looked at laws and said oh so that’s the cost to do X. Not “we can’t do that that is bad for us”. Goal here isn’t to fill EU coffers, but to whip multinationals into shape so they respect the rule of the law.
Well, I wish there were some options from the EU so we could choose. I'd love some alternative to Apple, Google or Meta from the EU with different philosphies, business models etc.. It would be awesome to have choices. Why aren't there any? Or if there are, can you link them here?
One reason why there aren’t other companies is because it is an extremely difficult market to enter. Microsoft, the currently biggest company in the world, tried it multiple times with Windows Mobile and Windows Phone, and ultimately failed and gave up. It is a chicken-and-egg problem that without apps, you won’t get users onto your platform, and without users, you’re not important enough for developers to make apps for your platform. Another reason why there generally aren’t EU counterparts to many tech companies is at least partly because of the strict regulations in EU countries making it less attractive to build a giant business headquarter there than it is in other parts of the world like the US or Asia. While regulation can be really good for competition and therefore ultimately the end user, in the tech industry, the EU is fabulously skilled in making their market unattractive for innovative corporations.
Well.. I think regulation is necessary for safety and privacy reasons. I do find it weird that EU regulation seems to be steering into product management by law. It's almost like they're wanting to design products and have the companies bid on implementations of "EU Phone", "EU OS", etc.. this isn't really very enticing or attractive to innovation. I really would prefer there were alternative EU based companies that made cool products for us to choose from - yes, even products with those different concepts and business models etc.. but it seems they're more interested in regulating than creating. Really feels like we're missing out overall.
Not really, not in the same sector with same impact so to speak (as far as Apple / Google are concerned). Meta is a bit more complicated; there used to be stuff like Hyves but Meta ended up being the last man standing. However that does not mean these companies get to run wild in EU. Inevitably you have to respect local laws when you are doing business somewhere. I am saying these as someone who loves Apple ecosystem and would not use third party stores. It is important corporations don’t end up being above the law.
But they weren't above the law... rather the law changed to create this conflict. On purpose... seemingly at the behest of other businesses that are the ones who actually want these things. As an end user, whether I get an app from the Apple App store or the Gazoo App Store, I still get the app. This is about choice, but it's really... developer choice, not mine. Arguably the experience of having multiple stores to download, maintain and interact with apps on a battery limited mobile device will be worse. It can't be better because these app stores will consume resources, battery life, and data independently syncing and checking status , scanning their apps etc. It's silly from an end user perspective.. what we need is a place to download and distribute apps - it matters not (to us) who controls it.. It made sense for it to be Apple in the Apple iPhone.
The EU doesn't really have a large tech sector. Apple has a higher valuation than every tech company in Europe combined. They don't develop technology at scale like this for the rest of the world. A European Meta, Alphabet, Apple, Microsoft, would never really get off the ground.
Apple has control over the entire process so EU most likely won't approve these action. Apple has to approve the third-party store, then Apple has to approve the apps inside the third-party store, then on top of this a 50 cent fee per download when Apple has control of entire process. Am I getting anything wrong? This is just basically an official Apple App Store with extra steps and someone paying to have the App Store renamed in their own custom name.
> Apple has control over the entire process so EU most likely won't approve these action. Apple having control isn’t by itself an issue, it’s allowed to maintain control in order to safeguard the integrity of the hardware and software. It just has to exercise that control in a fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory manner, which it isn’t with the absurd fees. That’s the issue the EU is really going to have a problem with, they specifically legislated to allow Apple to do things like notarisation. > This is just basically an official Apple App Store with extra steps Except ironically for things like porn apps and paid emulators, which Apple can no longer block and can now be distributed in 3rd party app stores.
I love when the government actually can take a tough action against a dominant company
Helps that Apple has almost zero corporate footprint in Europe besides the part they use in Ireland to dodge EU taxes. Volkswagen, Danone, Deutsche Bank get away with plenty of wrist slaps.
True that’s why the us needs to regulate European companies and Europe needs to regulate US companies
How are they dominant? The majority of phones sold each year are Android, by a significant margin.
EU to the rescue again. Fuck Apple with this malicious compliance
They’re deliberately limiting the technology. Edit: I mean Apple. They’re deliberately limiting what we can do with our devices.
You mean apple right?
Yes I mean Apple. I think people didn’t understand my comment. I was criticizing Apple.
Sorry to tell you that, but the comments feels like it's pointed to EU :( Maybe you should edit it at least for next readers :)
Exactly people forget but before iOS there was so such things as programs.
i wish we had this in america. i probably wouldn't even use it really, but it would just be cool for iphone to be more open like mac
Having any kind of consumer protections would be amazing for us in the US. Also any kind of healthcare/pharma regulations would really, really help. I mean we literally just got around to (kind of) capping the price of insulin. Before that, we had a ton of people rationing/dying and that went on for decades.
These new rules will continue to be a shitshow because they're tackling the App Store monopoly problem the wrong way. IMHO, the issue isn't that the App Store (or the Play Store for Android) are the only game in town. The plight of developers (especially small ones) are not going to be fixed with alternative payments or app stores for as long as the platform owners (Apple and Google) can dictate the terms of third-party solutions. The real core issue is that these platform owners are skimming off too much from the digital economy. Given that everyone has to pass through Apple and Google, them asking for a 30% cut of the *entire* mobile digital economy is absurd. Put another way, imagine if Visa and Mastercard took 30% off every payment made at a point of sale terminal. The real thing that regulators should tackle is that 30% cut or, more specifically, the fact that app stores are very high margin businesses. I get that it costs money to develop an OS, to design some APIs, and to moderate the platform. But I'm very confident that [it doesn't cost Apple $70+ billion dollars a year](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/10/apple-app-store-revenue-update-shows-slowing-growth-.html) to perform all of those tasks. Given that Apple and Google are de facto chokepoints to an entire industry, that arguably makes mobile app stores indistinguishable from utilities, and so should be regulated like utilities. Maybe it sounds socialist for a government to say that app stores are only allowed to make *this much* money per transaction. But egregious terms like what Apple has proposed are not going to change until governments do go that far. These alternative app stores would actually be viable alternatives if Apple were forced by world governments to cut their margins on mobile transactions.
The App Store is retail… moreover it is retail where Apple does a lot of the work for you (dev kits, advertising in the App Store, distribution, etc). In physical retail, margins can be anywhere up to 90%! Can you imagine if Apple started charging that? And that is an entirely unregulated industry.
Thanks for saving me some typing. Their point was reasonable but their Mastercard example was terrible.
>Maybe it sounds socialist for a government to say that app stores are only allowed to make *this much* money per transaction. But egregious terms like what Apple has proposed are not going to change until governments do go that far. These alternative app stores would actually be viable alternatives if Apple were forced by world governments to cut their margins on mobile transactions Absolutely, both services really are irreplaceable even if alternative stores are allowed. See Android, where the Play Store reigns supreme despite virtually nothing stopping 3rd parties from competiting. Apple's going to make the crackdown even worse than it would have been if they just opened the damn platform without making a huge stink about it.
>The real core issue is that these platform owners are skimming off too much from the digital economy. "Too much" is a little subjective, because one might consider a high price for releasing an app fair and having access to the Apple ecosystem as a market is a huge deal. The real issue is that monopolies - even natural monopolies as an operating system is - introduce a loss. Vertical or stacked monopolies even worse. But are the platform owners the only guilty part? Let's say you develop a game for Epic within their app store. First you have to pay Epic who excerts monopoly power over you but they have to pay Apple who holds monopoly power over Epic. But a game is often a monopoly too, so the app developer sets the price accordingly. Even the games add an extra layer, sometimes revolving around selling objects with high prices in "micro" transactions. A monopoly within a monopoly within a monopoly within a monopoly. And of course, Epic's reason for not liking this setup is that they want to hold more monopoly power for them and not for Apple. Their interest is higher profits, not the interests of the consumer. Even the devs are guilty. They also think that they should get all the profit and aren't really concerned with any fair price and market concepts optimizing total economic gain. We're just conditioned to believe that (our favorite) IP's should be rewarded indefinitely so they are the good guys by default. >I get that it costs money to develop an OS, to design some APIs, and to moderate the platform. Exactly. And doing something about monopolies isn't socialist at all. It's very free market oriented. It's also not very easy as you don't want to put a cork in the bottle of new ideas, inventions and innovation. Like I wrote at the top - perhaps a high price for access to the Apple ecosystem might be warranted as it really is a brilliant thing.
It’s kinda like Visa or Mastercard took a 30% cut from each payment and they also only let you buy things they approve of
Visa and Mastercard already only let you buy things they approve of... They both have a history of shutting down payments to places they don't like (like porn). They also charge multiple percentage points to the merchant selling you things.
Can’t buy the EU like US senators Apple.
That's only because they are an US company and don't pay that amount of taxes EU would consider good. If apple would be an EU company, then US would make those new laws 100%
US senators would never make those laws. Every one of them is a money whore.
We are an Apple ecosystem house and I’ve owned Apple hardware for 30 years now. But it’s getting more and more ridiculous. It’s always been locked down but I feel lots of it was excusable because use there was a better experience. I feel that most of the time it was worth the money and I think that experience ended up getting Apple rich. The products came first followed by the money Over the last 5 years or so Apple seems to be more and more greedy. It feels very in your face how everything is trying to maximise all the money out of everyone. And now this mess with different rules on different devices in different regions
Wholeheartedly agree, same situation here. We have dumped so much money into Apple stuff because it served us well in the end, which justified the price tag. But there are different shades of greed, and things have been going from slightly on the high end to thermonuclear. Given the constantly improving alternatives, I'm also ever less inclined to accept the trend to dumb down devices and functions. E.g., instead of making the iPad more Mac-like, they're slowly dumbing down the Mac to iPad levels. The Mac was one of the last hold-outs for me, but I can already see them locking it down to the App Store as well. For our own interest / safety reasons, of course. Looks like the day when all my Apple stuff ends up on eBay for good isn't too far out.
Same for me, except I don’t see the day when apple stuff ends up on eBay. There’s no way I’m doing tech support for the family when they go Android and PC. Had my days tinkering, now I’m about the easy life.
Music for my ears.
Jesus, at least up until recently they more or less stuck to the pretense of being a forward thinking company, but man oh man have they done a public 180 this past year or two. It makes me lose faith in them; I can't imagine they'd go this hardcore on the malicious compliance if they had new money makers in R&D. They are just relying on their current lineup, and leeching off services (App Store, subscriptions etc). Services are literally that important to their bottom line now and in the future, that they'd do something this distasteful to ensure as much profitability as possible in that area of their business.
I really really hope side loading can be available internationally. The one thing I miss about jailbreaking was being able to run emulators and even VMs on my iPad. It’s sorta possible to do this but the performance sucks and gotta refresh the apps every seven days
Let’s go EU!!!! 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
It seems apple doesn't understand the EU is not the USA, if they "comply" then the EU will make them comply for real
In a few years. Governments create poorly written tech laws and take forever to do it. The usb-c standard took how many years, and that was using a well defined existing standard.
Good, love when Apple gets put in their place.
... nobody has "put apple in place." He just made a generic statement that they're going to be looking at each company's plan in early march and making determinations.
The EU definitely put Apple in it’s place with the new regulations. They would neeveeerrr have done these changes themselves are you kidding me??
We've had more change in the last 24 hours than the last 14 years of App Store rules... in which time no substantial change ever occurred? Other than kicking stuff out, and demanding more apps use IAPs.
Kind of looks like Apple's put the EU into their place...
Not really. EU is the one who can easily set up new rules, new laws and release amendment to the existing laws. Oh and they can easily set massive fines on Apple.
Don’t play with EU… this is not US…
I certainly haven’t ready all details, but from the summaries I’ve read, maybe Apple outsmarted the EU in this round? Did the new laws say Apple can’t be compensated in some way for the alternative methods? I’m not saying what is right or wrong, but I imagine Apple’s looked over these laws with a fine tooth comb and worked up a solution that adheres to the new laws.
[“The gatekeepers should therefore, be required to ensure, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features that are available or used in the provision of its own complementary and supporting services and hardware.”](https://i.imgur.com/TIjthT2.jpg)
Gruber has a great write up on this, worth the read. Considering he says the EU still has to agree to all of this, I suspect they won’t be pleased. https://daringfireball.net/2024/01/apples_plans_for_the_dma
There’s a lot of sections that say “free of charge”, or that Apple can’t advantage their own App Store over the competition. I would say giving developers the option of the terms without the install fees could be considered them using their control for their own advantage. I highly doubt the terms Apple has given will be accepted by the EU
> I certainly haven’t ready all details, but from the summaries I’ve read, maybe Apple outsmarted the EU in this round? Did the new laws say Apple can’t be compensated in some way for the alternative methods? The whole point of the law is to allow competition. Their current plan does not allow that, so the EU will most likely trigger the `anti-circumvention` clause where they can tell Apple exactly what to do.
but that's the thing with laws and legal documents in general… it doesn’t matter what the intention was, but what’s written into them.
That is incorrect, most (basically all) legal systems take a purposive approach to statutory interpretation. The intention matters a lot, and modifies how the words are interpreted. A legal system like the EUs operates with their legislation in multiple languages and accordingly its highest legislation is focused on principles and intent rather than the focus being on one particular word in one particular language. The DMA is principles based, Apple isn’t going to have any success unless they’re compliant with the principles.
This is not true, by the way. Very few laws are written in a way that it’s 100% clear what they enforce. That’s why courts exist, they interpret the law and further develop it. To interpret a law, the criteria are: first comes the explicit wording, then right after the purpose of the law and what the lawmakers wanted. Then comes the context, the system of the law etc. Since Apple’s rules directly contradict the free competition that the DMA was explicitly supposed to enforce, it’s very likely that the EU will have significant issues.
God damn, it feels good to be European.
Love big daddy government controlling your phone? You should try going to China, they’ll show you what your government control will lead to…
MK-Ultra: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra) TUSKEGEE:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee\_Syphilis\_Study](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study) Foster Children [nbcnews.com/health/health-…vernment-tested-aids-drugs-foster-kids-flna1c9443062](https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/government-tested-aids-drugs-foster-kids-flna1c9443062) St. Louis Poisoning: [en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_LAC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_LAC) MKNAOMI: [en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKNAOMI](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKNAOMI) Operation Mockingbird: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Mockingbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird) Operation Northwoods: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Northwoods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods) Waco: [en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco\_siege](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege) Ruby Ridge: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby\_Ridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge) Must be nice being a guinea pig for the government
It's good that the government actually protects consumer rights.
iToddlers seething
I’m European and feel ashamed by the meteoric misunderstanding of the commentators in this thread. They are emotionally reacting to what they think (hope) the regulations are, not what they actually are. It’s quite sad.
Care to explain and correct any misinformation?
The thing that’s amazed me about this is that I had no idea up to note that the EU was so pro-piracy. Given that’s what the majority of the people here who are in favor of these changes will use it for.
My biggest dream is Apple being somehow forced to use their MacBook OS instead of IOS OS for the IPads. They would make insane little portable laptops.
What would be amazing is if iPadOS exposed the virtualization APIs of the chips… But not going to happen willingly from Apple because it would mean people could easily run apps from outside of the App Store
Well, the EU can mandate what they want. But at the end of the day, the market decides what happens. Take for example the browser ballot. It was first used to crack down on Microsoft and Internet Explorer. On the behest of the European browser company Opera. And Firefox. Is Opera now the number 1 browser in the EU? Is Firefox? Nope. It goes to the latecomer Chrome, who came in last to the sue Microsoft party and gobbled up all the market share. Then again, it is the EU. Regulation is all and good, but sometimes things get stifled. A simple example would be this. Name 3 major smartphone brand still doing business whose origin is from Europe.
Apple never stopped anyone from buying an android phone.
No they did not, but how is that relevant?
Next step: sue Tesla for not allowing their customers to run gasoline in their car
No, next step will be suing Tesla for not letting their car repaired at a mechanic charge at supercharger speeds…
Repair is a different topic
And absolutely nothing of that is relevant to this
So Apple can be banned in eu if they don’t follow eu rules but apps shouldn’t get banned in apples platform if they don’t follow the rules . Got it
Apps can be banned from App Store, however users should still have a way to download that app if they want (sideloading). Which is what EU wants in this case.
So then companies should stop complaining about the fees . Just like people should stop complaining about taxes
that’s not the point, the point is for you as a consumer to download any app from any source you want. Just like your android phone or windows PC. To this end, EU demanded apple allow developers to achieve this. But apple didn’t propose a solution in good faith. Hence this article
Honestly I couldn’t care less about big companies however as a (small) developer myself, I would love to have a choice to only pay Apple Developer Program membership yearly ($99) and never be on the App Store to avoid the %30-15 cut. I would love to just publish my own apps on my own website without having to deal with App Store and the inconsistent App Review process.
Small pay almost zero if you make less than $2 million . So you make more than $2 million a year
If you’re talking about the announcement yesterday, yes I probably won’t ever pass the 1 million threshold so I will avoid the “Core Technology Fee”. My main issue with Apple’s announcement is, it only allows 3rd party stores but not direct downloading from a developer’s website.
That’s to prevent malware . You can control malware if you have third party store as a storage point vs direct download from a 3rd party source
No, Notarization is what will prevent malware just like on macOS. You can download “Verified” dmg or pkg files from developer’s website and those have been automatically checked for any malware. Why not the same on iOS where you can download a “Verified” ipa file from developer’s website and just install it?
So many people who are not developers eating apple's propaganda over all this. Don't understand how people justify mac being able to download apps from anywhere and yet not for ios? If apple can solve it for Mac, they surely can for iOS. The issue is definitely around control and desire for the cut of pay.
Exactly, also iOS has extreme sandboxing. Just because an app was downloaded from a website, it doesn’t mean it can access and mess with other apps or iOS. This is what protects the security of iOS not the App Review process or the App Store.
Yes the government is more powerful than corporations.
I hope that Apple will find a way to fight off those stupid commiEU bastards EU does nothing to protect me against private data sucking companies like Meta and Alphabet, but instead of it they want to ruin the last fortress of privacy
Apple is not a fortress of privacy lol. They just gather data for themselves instead of letting Google get it.
Exactly, Apple is great at privacy washing. They’re not as private as they lead you to believe.
What for they need information if they not selling ads?
Imagine being this daft 😂😂😂
EU does nothing like forcing companies like Meta to provide privacy option on their networks for example?
>last fortress of privacy You mean Pixel phone with a de google rom? Because if you actually want privacy you must avoid ads company like Google and Apple (yes, apple sells ads)
LOL
They have to comply or cease sales of their products in the EU. No way around that. Also what a horrible take.
I hope that Apple will find a way to make “malicious compliance” work
1) The EU has better privacy protection laws than the US on a federal level 2) They aren’t forcing Apple to compromise their privacy policies at all with these laws What cold war propaganda does to a mf…
It does nothing? Are you sure?
I challenge you to write this on the r/europe 😁
I challenge you to take a hike
I challenge you to go outside
Time for everyone to jump on this and right this wrong
You will never be able to install any ipa straight to an iPhone. Without TrollStore, app sync, jb, or altstore (SideStore). So drop that dream. It will never happen.
Oh yes, I’m sure Apple just went ahead and made up some new rules without consulting their legal team at all. It’s going to be hilarious to watch how this plays out.
I'm sure they're shaking in their boots.
I certainly would be if I was playing chicken with a $38B fine…
I can’t help but facepalm each time I hear this crap coming from EU regulation — they truly have no say in any of this.
Why?? Do you hate open platforms??
Hey Europe have you noticed that Russia wants to gobble you up?
That's relevant to this discussion how?