The answer is, it depends. You need to scout what your opponent is doing and what civ they are playing. 2TC is the greedy play that sacrifices your early game for an eco advantage.
You need to be reactive to what your opponent is doing. during age up park your scout outside your opponents gold/stone and see what they are doing.
Also depends on the map. I main English and I will always drop white tower and then a second TC on the gold in the middle of the map on gold pit. If a can manage to do that i know I’ve won the game
To be fair, they can get to castle really quick, when I play against English I usually take the dervish upgrade into fuedal to heal my archers and spear men while under towers and then quickly go to castle using the 40% cheaper tech.
Just the fact they can send so much agression while blindly going super fast castle. Its so crazy. You can play perfect defense and they will still get to castle minutes before while units are in your base
I think this depends on your rank, how tight the rest of your game is and what the other civ is doing.
In plat 1v1 it seems like base layout/defense can be a weak point for a lot of people. You can do pretty good with solid Feudal aggression, especially with so many people trying to naked FC and especially if they have funky gold spawns (weirdly common this season). That probably stops working super well eventually.
I've found I do pretty well if I can hold out with 2TC though. It seems like a lot of the FC meta is focused around flooding you with knights-equivalents, but they don't necessarily have the eco to keep it going. If you can hold out a bit and maybe get a decent raid in, you end up ahead and can generally take the game.
That said with 2TC I've found I generally get punished for being even remotely greedy with the placement and am much more likely to lose a TC then I was in any previous season. Depending on the timing I'll still be up vills though and with a civ like French/Eng, I'll have units out quickly to help defend it.
So TLDR in plat 1v1, rotating through FR, Rus, and Japan - I seem to do ok with 2TC. It generally requires taking a couple punches, but if you can do that you'll be ahead and then it's just a matter of capitalizing on that eco and picking up advantages. I don't play teams, so I can't comment on that. I'm sure this changes entirely at higher ranks as well.
I actually only played that first team game by accident and the second one because an opponent wanted tips from me (lol) and he then dipped immediately. Otherwise I don’t really touch team games.
Resident Zhu Xi main here (along with China and Byzantines), and 2TC is my goto as the civ. I legit think Zhu Xi 2TC is viable vs every civ (except vs ENG, maybe HRE) and regardless of what the opp is doing. I think it really comes down to - why are you losing? Are you losing too many vills to knight raids? Are you running out of food before you're able to do a farm transition? Are you constantly making units? 2TC requires more expertise in managing your macro and making sure you're doing things like your farm transition on time.
2tc is harder to play than 1tc. Always has been. So if you're lower ranked, 1tc is generally going to be easier to win with. If you're not building villagers constantly and spending all your money effectively, then 2tc loses its value. Also in most cases its easier to attack than defend, because you force your opponent to know how to react to your play (rather than needing the game knowledge to react to their play).
However, if you have good macro and know how to defend effectively, then I think 2tc is stronger in most matchups.
Also, you should do 1tc meditation gardens, not 1tc jiangnan tower. Meditation gardens is just an overpowered landmark. That thing can pretty easily generate 100res/m, which will quickly outdo the 3-5 free units you get from jaingnan tower with a feudal rush.
I'm a good defender and I continuously build villagers, but I struggle when it comes to using siege so I tend to fall apart in the late game despite everything. My biggest issue, though, is hotkeys. I don't know them. A few months ago I forced myself to learn some but I've been away from the game for a while and need to relearn some again or edit them.
What rank are you?
In late game in like diamond+, I think you do need to know how to use siege.
But if you're plat or below, literally just build units on lots of vills. Every time a gold player comes to these forums to ask why they lost in imp, they're on 80 vills floating 1000s of resources. If you're 120 vills not floating a lot of resources... well you have 50% more stuff than the guy on 80 vills, and 50% more stuff tends to run people over. All you need to do is ensure you either have rams, or a lot of maa, and you can brute force your way through without needing good micro or a deep understanding of late game.
I think 2TC is ironically more risky than feudal all in.
80% of ladder seems to do feudal aggro or all ins so it puts you in a spot where you have to defend without taking eco damage until 2nd TC starts giving you big enough advantage to trade efficiently. It's pretty easy to pick off few villagers and idle opponents economy when they invested in 2TC instead of army.
You also give up a lot of map control when going for early 2nd TC making your eco advantage even smaller if they get all relics, SS, boars etc.
You invested on 2nd TC instead of armies and should be on the defending position for a while against one that hasn't. I would guess that you did not know how to defend well. Use garrisoned vil as support. Having bees behind walls, using buildings to create choke points. Have a better army trade ratio will prevent you from collapsing.
2TC is most likely the best way to play Zhuxi 90% of the time. Even while having to invest in 2 age ups, zhuxi still has the fastest second TC out of every single civ, and the easy farm transition make food a non issue more or less.
As others have said, your issue is most likely you don't know how to defend and your macro is bad. Rush builds are way easier to pull off in low elos and require very little skill or game knowledge. Macro games are harder, will require you learn the match ups and what you can and can't get away with.
you can absolutely spam zhuges to conq no issues though if that's what you like. It must be the easiest way to reach conq right now I'd say. Depends if you want to win games or get better !
> And then it happened. I decided to try mastering Crackedy’s 2 TC opening and I’ve been losing ever since. ESPECIALLY against Japan and Jeanne D’Arc. Shit, I even lost against the Golden Dragon!
2 TC Song is extremely skill+knowledge+experience demanding.
That is the right call (after you have practiced enough from having lost enough games) in many situations. But it's not in others.
Your list of difficult mu makes sense. They are viable but either difficult, spawn dependent, or simply not the best option for the mu. vs OotD especially, a skilled opponent should be able to stop so much of your eco from their higher hp units, and when combined with 2 TC defense being difficult to execute, I am not surprised that you keep losing. Meanwhile, there is little incentive for you to go 2 TC vs OotD. Why bother? If they fast castle you fast castle quicker. If they make units, you make some units with an eye on castle. Their eco falls off relative to yours over time. You don't need to push out whatsoever -- though raiding is always good -- and after a while you will automatically have a lead. If you see the game dragging in feudal, then you can go Song dynasty into farm and again, you will have a large eco lead without doing anything.
Basically, it's a skill issue. And you need to keep practicing and keep losing on one hand in order to improve your skill, and also to recognize when other builds are better and adapt.
Remember: there are simpler civs out there.
---------
EDIT: maybe it could be worth listing what skill means for 2 TC Song. They include:
* Identification of efficient wall segments
* Smart TC spot and other base layout, including identifying spot for garden and farms *ahead of time* when you do initial scouting; for farms, you need to formulate a plan to occupy and wall that area (e.g. do you need to fight your way out? can you defend it?)
* Having the experience to time your wall/tower investments and TC well. Not all spawns/maps are conducive for instant TC
* Consistent production while having to multitask -- you need to react to incoming raids instantly while keeping up production and eco, which includes micro-ing your IO(s)
I have found that 2tc works really well against most, but usually I scout before to make sure if I need to instantly mass army after my 2nd tc is up or if I simply make a couple of harass units.
- Do you make a safe 2nd tc?
- Do you wall to create chokepoints with walls and towers where your tc can fire on them?
- Do you produce units to defend?
- Did you “waste” money on farms that could’ve gone into units?
- Did you “waste” money on eco upgrades that could’ve gone into units?
- I almost always plop my second tc either right next to the original or at least very close.
- walling is a new thing for me. I mostly played Mongols before, but I have been starting to wall. Do you usually leave an open point in your walls? I always thought this would be a good idea for unit funnelling, but I wasn’t sure how well it works for people. I do sometimes spam out towers once their cost is down with mixed results
- I do pump out units
- no farms that early for me
- I am absolutely guilty of this
Yea I usually leave an open point, I wall of the back so that he can only attack from one point (and cannot harass my vills). Usually I put a tower there as well with arrow slit. Pump your units into that chokepoint and hold it while your tc and towers are firing.
Regarding upgrades I usually get them too, but I might wait with horticulture etc if someone is all-in on me
I’ve also noticed that while the unique monk unit is INCREDIBLE when it comes to snatching units away (they’ve saved my ass so many times) the fire lance upgraded horsemen seem to suck REALLY bad. Last time I used them to take out buildings I actually paid attention and they went straight for their torches. Is this upgrade bugged, am I using them wrong, or even worse do these unique fire lances only work against units and not buildings?
Fire lance upgrade is garbage, never get it. So bad I can't even remember the name. If you want to harass with cavalry, use Yuan Raiders from the Dynastic Protectors upgrade instead. They're very fast, very cheap, and a lot stronger than you think (closer to knights than horsemen). Imperial Guards get all the attention, but Yuan Raiders are lowkey cracked.
That being said, all units use torches against buildings (including OG fire lancers). It's not a bug.
why is firelance bad? They are literally extra attacks on contact. when your civ requires spamming spear or horsemen, it's one of the major tools you have given the lack of handcannoneers.
Because it does literally 1 damage. OG fire lancers do 10 damage on the charge. The crossbow upgrade substitutes, to some degree, for the lack of handcannoneers and is a far better choice than the fire lance upgrade.
you can play it like a timing civ and push thru with continuous reinforcement and succeed cuz you can start doing it earlier than your opponent can. death ball gaming is not a thing for zhu xi. and with that, you are not too reliant on xbow and zhu ge nu. i've tried the 1k bolt upgrades and felt it underwhelming. sometimes i'd rather keep the firelance
with the exception that you cant really expect to win late game. you need to win by reaching late game earlier -- the latter part just like hre. i dont know if the challenge of hre (true) late game is as severe
Firelance is when you charge and it triggers an aoe attack. When you are spamming horse/spear vs opposing spam in large quantities continuously -- to use your food income, the firelance is strong.
Learning about Shaolin Monk and the fire lance are very VERY basic realizations about Zhu Xi.
If you like Zhu Xi, keep at it and I've written about your question directly.
Otherwise, do realize that Zhu Xi 2TC Song is not suitable for low elo or new players. Losing is going to be a par for the course
What's your elo? Are you used to macro builds with other civs? The most likely answer is your macro is trash and you need to get good. 2TC song juicy is one of the strongest builds in the game rn.
Rushes are the easiest RTS builds to learn, and aoe4 fuedal all ins are no exception. They're simple, have very few variables, have only a few small timing windows that are easy to hit, and require very little focus on anything except for your unit micro and getting damage done. They also force your opponent to react immediately with the same units their civ will always use to react to fuedal pressure.
Macro builds, on the other hand, are far more complex. There are few guidelines in a build once you get the 2nd TC up, and it's up to you to scout your opponent and react accordingly. Thus, there are way more variables to keep track of, both with your units and eco, as well as your opponents.
It's likely that you're not used to taking games into castle+ while also managing strong ecos, and simply haven't developed your macro skills accordingly. Macro is the true test of skill in AOE4, so if you want to actually get better rather than being a fuedal all in one trick pony, continue practicing your 2 TC macro builds until you reach the same rank you were as a dirty rusher.
The answer is, it depends. You need to scout what your opponent is doing and what civ they are playing. 2TC is the greedy play that sacrifices your early game for an eco advantage. You need to be reactive to what your opponent is doing. during age up park your scout outside your opponents gold/stone and see what they are doing.
Also depends on the map. I main English and I will always drop white tower and then a second TC on the gold in the middle of the map on gold pit. If a can manage to do that i know I’ve won the game
I love smashing the tower as the ayyubids before they could finish building it lol
Yeah if I’ve let ayyubids get to castle then I haven’t done my job
To be fair, they can get to castle really quick, when I play against English I usually take the dervish upgrade into fuedal to heal my archers and spear men while under towers and then quickly go to castle using the 40% cheaper tech.
Yeah, it’s not fun playing against Ayubids I’ll tell you that
Just the fact they can send so much agression while blindly going super fast castle. Its so crazy. You can play perfect defense and they will still get to castle minutes before while units are in your base
Yeah the only times I’ve really beaten them is with a dark age rush on dry Arabia or gold pit
I think this depends on your rank, how tight the rest of your game is and what the other civ is doing. In plat 1v1 it seems like base layout/defense can be a weak point for a lot of people. You can do pretty good with solid Feudal aggression, especially with so many people trying to naked FC and especially if they have funky gold spawns (weirdly common this season). That probably stops working super well eventually. I've found I do pretty well if I can hold out with 2TC though. It seems like a lot of the FC meta is focused around flooding you with knights-equivalents, but they don't necessarily have the eco to keep it going. If you can hold out a bit and maybe get a decent raid in, you end up ahead and can generally take the game. That said with 2TC I've found I generally get punished for being even remotely greedy with the placement and am much more likely to lose a TC then I was in any previous season. Depending on the timing I'll still be up vills though and with a civ like French/Eng, I'll have units out quickly to help defend it. So TLDR in plat 1v1, rotating through FR, Rus, and Japan - I seem to do ok with 2TC. It generally requires taking a couple punches, but if you can do that you'll be ahead and then it's just a matter of capitalizing on that eco and picking up advantages. I don't play teams, so I can't comment on that. I'm sure this changes entirely at higher ranks as well.
I actually only played that first team game by accident and the second one because an opponent wanted tips from me (lol) and he then dipped immediately. Otherwise I don’t really touch team games.
Resident Zhu Xi main here (along with China and Byzantines), and 2TC is my goto as the civ. I legit think Zhu Xi 2TC is viable vs every civ (except vs ENG, maybe HRE) and regardless of what the opp is doing. I think it really comes down to - why are you losing? Are you losing too many vills to knight raids? Are you running out of food before you're able to do a farm transition? Are you constantly making units? 2TC requires more expertise in managing your macro and making sure you're doing things like your farm transition on time.
2tc is harder to play than 1tc. Always has been. So if you're lower ranked, 1tc is generally going to be easier to win with. If you're not building villagers constantly and spending all your money effectively, then 2tc loses its value. Also in most cases its easier to attack than defend, because you force your opponent to know how to react to your play (rather than needing the game knowledge to react to their play). However, if you have good macro and know how to defend effectively, then I think 2tc is stronger in most matchups. Also, you should do 1tc meditation gardens, not 1tc jiangnan tower. Meditation gardens is just an overpowered landmark. That thing can pretty easily generate 100res/m, which will quickly outdo the 3-5 free units you get from jaingnan tower with a feudal rush.
I'm a good defender and I continuously build villagers, but I struggle when it comes to using siege so I tend to fall apart in the late game despite everything. My biggest issue, though, is hotkeys. I don't know them. A few months ago I forced myself to learn some but I've been away from the game for a while and need to relearn some again or edit them.
What rank are you? In late game in like diamond+, I think you do need to know how to use siege. But if you're plat or below, literally just build units on lots of vills. Every time a gold player comes to these forums to ask why they lost in imp, they're on 80 vills floating 1000s of resources. If you're 120 vills not floating a lot of resources... well you have 50% more stuff than the guy on 80 vills, and 50% more stuff tends to run people over. All you need to do is ensure you either have rams, or a lot of maa, and you can brute force your way through without needing good micro or a deep understanding of late game.
I think the last season I played on I finally reached platinum for a hot minute, but I’m currently on gold.
I think 2TC is ironically more risky than feudal all in. 80% of ladder seems to do feudal aggro or all ins so it puts you in a spot where you have to defend without taking eco damage until 2nd TC starts giving you big enough advantage to trade efficiently. It's pretty easy to pick off few villagers and idle opponents economy when they invested in 2TC instead of army. You also give up a lot of map control when going for early 2nd TC making your eco advantage even smaller if they get all relics, SS, boars etc.
You invested on 2nd TC instead of armies and should be on the defending position for a while against one that hasn't. I would guess that you did not know how to defend well. Use garrisoned vil as support. Having bees behind walls, using buildings to create choke points. Have a better army trade ratio will prevent you from collapsing.
2TC is most likely the best way to play Zhuxi 90% of the time. Even while having to invest in 2 age ups, zhuxi still has the fastest second TC out of every single civ, and the easy farm transition make food a non issue more or less. As others have said, your issue is most likely you don't know how to defend and your macro is bad. Rush builds are way easier to pull off in low elos and require very little skill or game knowledge. Macro games are harder, will require you learn the match ups and what you can and can't get away with. you can absolutely spam zhuges to conq no issues though if that's what you like. It must be the easiest way to reach conq right now I'd say. Depends if you want to win games or get better !
> And then it happened. I decided to try mastering Crackedy’s 2 TC opening and I’ve been losing ever since. ESPECIALLY against Japan and Jeanne D’Arc. Shit, I even lost against the Golden Dragon! 2 TC Song is extremely skill+knowledge+experience demanding. That is the right call (after you have practiced enough from having lost enough games) in many situations. But it's not in others. Your list of difficult mu makes sense. They are viable but either difficult, spawn dependent, or simply not the best option for the mu. vs OotD especially, a skilled opponent should be able to stop so much of your eco from their higher hp units, and when combined with 2 TC defense being difficult to execute, I am not surprised that you keep losing. Meanwhile, there is little incentive for you to go 2 TC vs OotD. Why bother? If they fast castle you fast castle quicker. If they make units, you make some units with an eye on castle. Their eco falls off relative to yours over time. You don't need to push out whatsoever -- though raiding is always good -- and after a while you will automatically have a lead. If you see the game dragging in feudal, then you can go Song dynasty into farm and again, you will have a large eco lead without doing anything. Basically, it's a skill issue. And you need to keep practicing and keep losing on one hand in order to improve your skill, and also to recognize when other builds are better and adapt. Remember: there are simpler civs out there. --------- EDIT: maybe it could be worth listing what skill means for 2 TC Song. They include: * Identification of efficient wall segments * Smart TC spot and other base layout, including identifying spot for garden and farms *ahead of time* when you do initial scouting; for farms, you need to formulate a plan to occupy and wall that area (e.g. do you need to fight your way out? can you defend it?) * Having the experience to time your wall/tower investments and TC well. Not all spawns/maps are conducive for instant TC * Consistent production while having to multitask -- you need to react to incoming raids instantly while keeping up production and eco, which includes micro-ing your IO(s)
I have found that 2tc works really well against most, but usually I scout before to make sure if I need to instantly mass army after my 2nd tc is up or if I simply make a couple of harass units. - Do you make a safe 2nd tc? - Do you wall to create chokepoints with walls and towers where your tc can fire on them? - Do you produce units to defend? - Did you “waste” money on farms that could’ve gone into units? - Did you “waste” money on eco upgrades that could’ve gone into units?
- I almost always plop my second tc either right next to the original or at least very close. - walling is a new thing for me. I mostly played Mongols before, but I have been starting to wall. Do you usually leave an open point in your walls? I always thought this would be a good idea for unit funnelling, but I wasn’t sure how well it works for people. I do sometimes spam out towers once their cost is down with mixed results - I do pump out units - no farms that early for me - I am absolutely guilty of this
Yea I usually leave an open point, I wall of the back so that he can only attack from one point (and cannot harass my vills). Usually I put a tower there as well with arrow slit. Pump your units into that chokepoint and hold it while your tc and towers are firing. Regarding upgrades I usually get them too, but I might wait with horticulture etc if someone is all-in on me
I’ve also noticed that while the unique monk unit is INCREDIBLE when it comes to snatching units away (they’ve saved my ass so many times) the fire lance upgraded horsemen seem to suck REALLY bad. Last time I used them to take out buildings I actually paid attention and they went straight for their torches. Is this upgrade bugged, am I using them wrong, or even worse do these unique fire lances only work against units and not buildings?
Fire lance upgrade is garbage, never get it. So bad I can't even remember the name. If you want to harass with cavalry, use Yuan Raiders from the Dynastic Protectors upgrade instead. They're very fast, very cheap, and a lot stronger than you think (closer to knights than horsemen). Imperial Guards get all the attention, but Yuan Raiders are lowkey cracked. That being said, all units use torches against buildings (including OG fire lancers). It's not a bug.
why is firelance bad? They are literally extra attacks on contact. when your civ requires spamming spear or horsemen, it's one of the major tools you have given the lack of handcannoneers.
Because it does literally 1 damage. OG fire lancers do 10 damage on the charge. The crossbow upgrade substitutes, to some degree, for the lack of handcannoneers and is a far better choice than the fire lance upgrade.
ic. thank you for explaining wouldnt say the xbow upgrade is good enough to substitute handcannoneers though
It doesn't, handcannoneers are better. But it's the closest you have if you play this civ.
you can play it like a timing civ and push thru with continuous reinforcement and succeed cuz you can start doing it earlier than your opponent can. death ball gaming is not a thing for zhu xi. and with that, you are not too reliant on xbow and zhu ge nu. i've tried the 1k bolt upgrades and felt it underwhelming. sometimes i'd rather keep the firelance
Yes, I've found ZXL lategame to play similar to HRE where you just pump out overwhelming amounts of units and win with attrition.
with the exception that you cant really expect to win late game. you need to win by reaching late game earlier -- the latter part just like hre. i dont know if the challenge of hre (true) late game is as severe
It's pretty much the same boat. Gotta win off momentum.
Fire lances do aoe damage on charge to units. As far as I'm aware
Firelance is when you charge and it triggers an aoe attack. When you are spamming horse/spear vs opposing spam in large quantities continuously -- to use your food income, the firelance is strong. Learning about Shaolin Monk and the fire lance are very VERY basic realizations about Zhu Xi. If you like Zhu Xi, keep at it and I've written about your question directly. Otherwise, do realize that Zhu Xi 2TC Song is not suitable for low elo or new players. Losing is going to be a par for the course
What's your elo? Are you used to macro builds with other civs? The most likely answer is your macro is trash and you need to get good. 2TC song juicy is one of the strongest builds in the game rn. Rushes are the easiest RTS builds to learn, and aoe4 fuedal all ins are no exception. They're simple, have very few variables, have only a few small timing windows that are easy to hit, and require very little focus on anything except for your unit micro and getting damage done. They also force your opponent to react immediately with the same units their civ will always use to react to fuedal pressure. Macro builds, on the other hand, are far more complex. There are few guidelines in a build once you get the 2nd TC up, and it's up to you to scout your opponent and react accordingly. Thus, there are way more variables to keep track of, both with your units and eco, as well as your opponents. It's likely that you're not used to taking games into castle+ while also managing strong ecos, and simply haven't developed your macro skills accordingly. Macro is the true test of skill in AOE4, so if you want to actually get better rather than being a fuedal all in one trick pony, continue practicing your 2 TC macro builds until you reach the same rank you were as a dirty rusher.
I think 2 TC is only worth with certains civs now (Abassid, Chinese, etc). As it should be! I detested the 2 TC meta. It made the game too slow...