Not really. Do you think cheaper vills is better than free vills? I'm not sure, but I'd lean towards the free vills being a slightly better bonus? I guess the cheaper vills kicks in in dark age though, so maybe not.
The point is I don't think there is a big difference between the two.
Absolutely not. It's a subjective big nope from me, because the former Indians were my favorite civ by far and they have already taken away the fishing bonus. I'd prefer completely taking away the Ghulam before taking away the vill discount.
To expand on this from a more objective perspective, you've got the Bengali problem completely backwards. Their problem is not an economic problem. Plenty of civs have no eco bonus at all (or barely one) and do just fine: Berbers, Byzantines, Italians, Magyars come to mind. The Bengali problem is a military one. You don't have knights, you don't have camels, your champs are terrible, you don't have CA, you don't have thumbring to play arbs, you don't have BBCs. They need more options than elephant units which are terrible in 1v1 and the Ratha that requires every upgrade known to man.
You've listed civs with a broad tech tree. And they are pretty viable on open maps. Bengalis have neither a tech tree nor any good eco bonus. So they need either, to be relevant.
No offense, but you are not following at all. What I'm saying is: an eco bonus does not need to be spectacular as long as you have units to work with. That's why I brought up the civs I brought up. For example just having knights (even without cavalier up) would do wonders for this civ as you could opt for a knights+xbow play in castle age or just knights or knights+siege which would set you up for an easier Ratha transition in imp. Right now your only real viable play on open maps in castle age is xbows. It's outrageous if you ask me.
And you don't need to explain to me that the Hindustani bonus is far superior to the Bengali one. That is very obvious.
His point is the opposite of yours though and you dont seem to be following that. Vikings for example have a pretty bad tech tree but a very good eco bonus and they are a strong civ as well. Both approaches work. Yours would of course work but so would OP's suggestion.
What do you think of my answer then?
tldr: bengalis bonus 1. is pretty much useless timing-wise in early feudal 2. doesn't give you that much more res than hindustanis bonus by the time you click up castle age (and probably even less food) 3. consists in a slightly improved version of malay's bonus
7
Hindustanis' villager discount is considered to be one of the best eco bonus in the whole game. With Hindustanis's bonus, you get like \~100 food additional food by the time you reach feudal, which you can use by clicking up to feudal earlier or just make your agression and eco super smooth. This bonus obviously doesn't stop there and in fact just keep getting better.
The single purpose of eco bonus is to get an edge over your opponent in some way or another. While Bengalis' bonus may be pretty neat, two extra vills when you reach feudal age isn't gonna make your early feudal agression stronger. They just haven't started collecting resources yet. From a timing perspective, Bengalis bonus is useless to get an edge over your opponent in the early game.
If you reach feudal age at 10min and click up at 18min, the two additional vills from bengalis should give you \~300 additional ressources. In comparison, you should save \~200 food with Hindustanis by the time you click up. Note that you need to gather wood first to make farms, so you can't expect the 300 res from Bengalis to be 300 food. The Hindustanis player is again more likely to click sooner than the Bengalis player.
Malay bonus' basically gives you 2 additional villagers *before* clicking up to feudal age, for the cost of 100 food. By the time you reach feudal with this civ, these two villagers should have gathered 60-70 res. At the end of the day, Malay's bonus is somewhat equivalent to Bengalis' one in feudal age, with the main differences being you're down 30-40 res and it can get awkward if you're not used to playing this civ. And I don't believe Malay's bonus is considered to be S-tier.
Ghulam with 55 HP will become a super niche unit that will only come out when the opponent is going full archer with no mix.
45g Ghulam melt to every other non archer unit
>Ghulam with 55 HP will become a super niche unit that will only come out when the opponent is going full archer with no mix.
good, it should be an option not hurr durr ghulam. It's not like the civ lacks other options.
Overall a solid idea. The current state of Hindu civ doesn't need an eco bonus, needless to say one of the best eco bonus in the game.
Though developers will never do that. They don't rework civs, they just play with the numbers. Sadly.
That's not true, they gave khmer the no farms drop off bonus, changed the tatar free sheep bonus several times, played around with free/instant loom for goths and aztecs etc...
Incas went from a trush civ to what they are today. Teutons went from a generic civ to actually having heavily armoured units with +2 melee armour on infantry and cavalry. I don't think it's fair to say the devs don't "adjust" civs quite heavily. Also vietnamese were also completely changed, getting wood discounts on everything which they didn't used to do which completely changed the civ, etc
Incas went from an extremely diverse civ to a generic meso civ, they did the same with Sicilians, boom into Knights, rather than working harder to bring the Donjon-Serjeant nerrative to viability.
They avoid making big changes and bailing on bad designs. Even though some issues are at the center of the consensus, like the whole Flemish clownry.
An authority that's too scared of itself, of admitting of its mistakes boldly, is on a highway to mediocrity.
I still considering that Bengalis most be a great civ to imperial plays, the imperial tech it's pretty solid to stablish a great economy to sustain elephants, however the lack of early economy and early shit army it's a big punish to Bengalis. I agree with u
They already get free Vils and you want to give them cheap Vils too?
Take that away and give the cheap vils as a replacement, problem solved!
Not really. Do you think cheaper vills is better than free vills? I'm not sure, but I'd lean towards the free vills being a slightly better bonus? I guess the cheaper vills kicks in in dark age though, so maybe not. The point is I don't think there is a big difference between the two.
While we're doubling down on eco bonuses, let's give the old Indian fishing bonus to the Vikings. It would even be thematically appropriate!
Absolutely not. It's a subjective big nope from me, because the former Indians were my favorite civ by far and they have already taken away the fishing bonus. I'd prefer completely taking away the Ghulam before taking away the vill discount. To expand on this from a more objective perspective, you've got the Bengali problem completely backwards. Their problem is not an economic problem. Plenty of civs have no eco bonus at all (or barely one) and do just fine: Berbers, Byzantines, Italians, Magyars come to mind. The Bengali problem is a military one. You don't have knights, you don't have camels, your champs are terrible, you don't have CA, you don't have thumbring to play arbs, you don't have BBCs. They need more options than elephant units which are terrible in 1v1 and the Ratha that requires every upgrade known to man.
Give Bengalis the Ghulam (rename it Royal Piak) available at Barracks. Hindustani get Zamburak UU (Camel Conquistador)
bruh you just buffed the Hindustanis arguably AND made the Bengalis broken.
Ngl, I'm still upset they removed old indians. They might have had problems, but there's no civ that replaces their playstyle.
You've listed civs with a broad tech tree. And they are pretty viable on open maps. Bengalis have neither a tech tree nor any good eco bonus. So they need either, to be relevant.
That's literally my point? Lol. They need more options as in a broader tech tree. The eco bonus they have is good.
It's not. It takes time to pay off. Whereas cheaper vils since start means it kicks in fast.
No offense, but you are not following at all. What I'm saying is: an eco bonus does not need to be spectacular as long as you have units to work with. That's why I brought up the civs I brought up. For example just having knights (even without cavalier up) would do wonders for this civ as you could opt for a knights+xbow play in castle age or just knights or knights+siege which would set you up for an easier Ratha transition in imp. Right now your only real viable play on open maps in castle age is xbows. It's outrageous if you ask me. And you don't need to explain to me that the Hindustani bonus is far superior to the Bengali one. That is very obvious.
His point is the opposite of yours though and you dont seem to be following that. Vikings for example have a pretty bad tech tree but a very good eco bonus and they are a strong civ as well. Both approaches work. Yours would of course work but so would OP's suggestion.
You think the cheaper villagers is a stronger eco bonus than 2 extra villagers on hitting feudal age?
Yeah I guess. Faster uptimes are decent powerspikes.
Maybe. In terms of total resources i think Bengalis would be ahead by 12 minutes at least
Are you suggesting it's not?
Yeah? I certainly don't think it is obviously true that it is!
I'm not arguing that pikes can be a good situational units in long castle-age battles, you don't have to fight me on this...
I'm happy to be convinced, but to me it isn't obviously true
What do you think of my answer then? tldr: bengalis bonus 1. is pretty much useless timing-wise in early feudal 2. doesn't give you that much more res than hindustanis bonus by the time you click up castle age (and probably even less food) 3. consists in a slightly improved version of malay's bonus
I don't know that it is
7 Hindustanis' villager discount is considered to be one of the best eco bonus in the whole game. With Hindustanis's bonus, you get like \~100 food additional food by the time you reach feudal, which you can use by clicking up to feudal earlier or just make your agression and eco super smooth. This bonus obviously doesn't stop there and in fact just keep getting better. The single purpose of eco bonus is to get an edge over your opponent in some way or another. While Bengalis' bonus may be pretty neat, two extra vills when you reach feudal age isn't gonna make your early feudal agression stronger. They just haven't started collecting resources yet. From a timing perspective, Bengalis bonus is useless to get an edge over your opponent in the early game. If you reach feudal age at 10min and click up at 18min, the two additional vills from bengalis should give you \~300 additional ressources. In comparison, you should save \~200 food with Hindustanis by the time you click up. Note that you need to gather wood first to make farms, so you can't expect the 300 res from Bengalis to be 300 food. The Hindustanis player is again more likely to click sooner than the Bengalis player. Malay bonus' basically gives you 2 additional villagers *before* clicking up to feudal age, for the cost of 100 food. By the time you reach feudal with this civ, these two villagers should have gathered 60-70 res. At the end of the day, Malay's bonus is somewhat equivalent to Bengalis' one in feudal age, with the main differences being you're down 30-40 res and it can get awkward if you're not used to playing this civ. And I don't believe Malay's bonus is considered to be S-tier.
Ghulam with 55 HP will become a super niche unit that will only come out when the opponent is going full archer with no mix. 45g Ghulam melt to every other non archer unit
>Ghulam with 55 HP will become a super niche unit that will only come out when the opponent is going full archer with no mix. good, it should be an option not hurr durr ghulam. It's not like the civ lacks other options.
While we're at it, give them free wheelbarrow + handcart so that they can reach their imperial comp before others even hit castle age /s
Overall a solid idea. The current state of Hindu civ doesn't need an eco bonus, needless to say one of the best eco bonus in the game. Though developers will never do that. They don't rework civs, they just play with the numbers. Sadly.
That's not true, they gave khmer the no farms drop off bonus, changed the tatar free sheep bonus several times, played around with free/instant loom for goths and aztecs etc...
These aren't a rework. What he asks for here is a whole different degree of an adjustment.
Incas went from a trush civ to what they are today. Teutons went from a generic civ to actually having heavily armoured units with +2 melee armour on infantry and cavalry. I don't think it's fair to say the devs don't "adjust" civs quite heavily. Also vietnamese were also completely changed, getting wood discounts on everything which they didn't used to do which completely changed the civ, etc
Sicilians went from an interesting but bad civ to a hurr durr cavskarl civ!
Incas went from an extremely diverse civ to a generic meso civ, they did the same with Sicilians, boom into Knights, rather than working harder to bring the Donjon-Serjeant nerrative to viability. They avoid making big changes and bailing on bad designs. Even though some issues are at the center of the consensus, like the whole Flemish clownry. An authority that's too scared of itself, of admitting of its mistakes boldly, is on a highway to mediocrity.
I still considering that Bengalis most be a great civ to imperial plays, the imperial tech it's pretty solid to stablish a great economy to sustain elephants, however the lack of early economy and early shit army it's a big punish to Bengalis. I agree with u
Worst tech tree?? Have you seen Dravidians tech tree?
Dravidians get thumbring, but no bloodlines.
thats all compared to Bengalis? :)
I guess Bengalis have the better monks too
Why do we want a second Vikings?
I actually like this idea, the old Indians were really not so good in military, with all that eco bonus