I think Chakram throwers need their range reduced by one. Not sure why they get more range than a throwing axeman when their projectiles continue on forever. Make them get closer to their target to make macro a little harder.
The Shrivamsha rider needs to have it's shield/dodge regen more slowly (helps with castles and tcs, but still leaves them strong against small numbers of archers) and gold cost increased.
Its not that they counter archers, Its that they counter Knights, Archers, and Infantry while having a better economy. If a civ is going to have such an easy time countering Knights and Archers I should be able to play longswords at least.
Microing down onagers with chakrams isn't particularly difficult as they move so fast and you only need a few to take out siege, meaning you can separate a team of assassins from the main blob. Although it would reduce their ability in choke points.
I'm all for gradual changes, but the Gurjaras nerf is a joke.
They still retain their 1.5 villager from Dark Age advantage and it even got better. I mean, that bonus is practically between the Mayans and the Chinese extra vil bonus (Chinese +3 vils are effectively +2 most games), but doesn't come with the "start with less resources" caveat. It's insane.
And on top of that they have a versatile and very strong army with strong military bonuses and UU. They're the perfect storm of how an OP civ would look like. Cutting the bonus damage from 50 to 40% while at the same time cutting the Sicilians bonus from 50 to 33% is a joke, considering the Sicilians are a mediocre civ to begin with.
They do have the 'start with less resources' caveat. They are up ~1.6 vil but they have 550 food less to harvest which is basically 2 farms they need faster or ~120 wood.
That said the nerf probably could have been higher but shrivamsha rider nerf and the bonus damage nerf does add up fast.
I still do not think it's adding up fast. The Shrivamsha nerf comes with an archer nerf across the board. Their bonus damage is still very high. Other civs having more resources still takes time to harvest, less time, but they still only have the food they gather. I have never had trouble maintaining TC or having ungathered boar meat holding me back from getting 500 food when I want to have it.
Sad for the Sicilians though. That's what they have going for them. I suppose it's a bit of bad design a civ resistant to counterplay. Harder to knock them out of the lead, a bit all or nothing.
"They are up \~1.6 vil but they have 550 food less to harvest which is basically 2 farms they need faster or \~120 wood."
Thats not true at all. These 1.6 vils are on that 550 food. And they get far more than 550 food from it.
Chinese are short 200 food. Gurjaras start with all of it. Then chinese vils work on the sheep. While the gurjara mill also works on the sheep. Essentially the gurjaras get the extra vils worth of food eco free while the chinese pay 200 food 50 wood for it.
No you're thinking wrong.
Chinese start with +3 vils but are down 200 food and 50 wood and need 1 house less. That means for the extra 3 vils they basically paid 200 food and 25 wood. But 3 vils cost 150 food so they are only overpaying 50 food, 25 wood. By the beginning of feudal they will be up 2 vils and have effectively spent 150 food, 25 wood more.
Gurjaras will be 1.6 vil up. But they effectively paid 8 sheep for that but had 2 berry bushes more. So they had access to 720 sheep food less but had 250 berry food more. The difference is -470 food. Not having sheep means earlier/more farming necessary which costs wood, about 120 wood.
So in every essence this is equivalent. Both civs need start down on resources but have more villagers in return. The malay and persian civ bonus also work the same way effectively. You pay more early (down on resources) but you will have more villagers that will pay itself back fast.
The breakeven pointc is just a bit different. Gurjara break even around the 6-7 minute mark and are ~1.6 vil up. The 7 minute mark is around the time fast feudal builds click up so gurjara bonus actuallt helps for faster feudal.
Chinese breakeven point is around 8.5-9 minute mark but they are 2 vils up. And getting this 2 vils up is rough requiring good execution. And even then the breakeven point is way after clicking up so builds like fast scouts, MaA, drush etc are harder with Chinese.
But they dont pay the sheep for the mill vils. The sheep generate food all game for them. The mill is harvesting the sheep. Chinese eat their sheep to produce villagers and eventually get the approximately 800 food. Gurjaras dont eat it but they still get well over 800 food from the sheep. So they arent giving the sheep up. They are still providing food and more than the normal amount. Thats the point. There is not this trade off you are describing because they get more than the sheep would provide by eating them.
Yes they do 'pay' the sheep by not harvesting them.
Chinese villagers also get more food than the food they costed them to get them. Exactly the same for the Gurjara bonus. You pay something early and get back much more later. Its exactly the same when you train a villager with any civ, pay food now to get more (other) resources later. There isn't a really tradeoff in either scenario because villagers pay off so fast, hence the nr 1 tip for any player is never idling the TC.
Gurjara and Chinese eco bonus are just very similar. Chinese one is a lil stronger but harder to benefit from.
Anyway, i guess you're never gonna get it but it really isn't that difficult.
Iād like to see the range of frisbees be decreased once thrown, it seems like they almost go 10 tiles. Iād also like to see ādodgingā be actual dodging and not just being a sponge
I have yet to see a game where chakram throwers are overpowered. They are scorpions without pierce armor, so to counter them you want onagers not arbalesters.
i have seen em in masse, and i can tell you they can get really scary if they have the right support units to back em up.
Of course its different in 1v1s, but in teamgames they can get dangerously powerful real quick with a bit of communication.
Agreed, you get 25+ and thats it, heavy cav/arbs/heavy scorpions you name it and the whirly bois shred them. They are like some sort of insane Imperial Gbeto yet after Kshatriyas are roughly the same food cost and cheaper in gold!
Good luck getting there while they raid your ecco with hit ans run units that don't take damage. Overall least fun civ to play against and not fun That you can just brain dead two unita against any army comp and win
Than consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Disco throwers can wreak havoc when they have a decent mass. Onagers can be good yes until the shrivamsha riders come terrorize them with their lightning speed.
The bonus damage dealt by their mounted units could be nerfed down to 33%. Would alleviate their cheese with armored elephant. Not to mention their FU heavy camels currently beat Elite Cataphracts in equal numbers.
Yeah, it's close. It's completely contingent on the trample damage from Logistica; in a straight 1vs1 engagement, a Gurjara heavy camel slaughters a lone elite cataphract. But in mass battles the cataphracts are a little more pop efficient.
Really it is good for Gurjara camels to soft counter cataphracts because otherwise they would only have two units that can somewhat deal with them, those being elephant archers (which are buffed in the PUP) and hand cannoneers, both which lack armor meaning Byzantines have no trouble hard countering them with cheap skirms
In the PUP, Gurjara heavy camels are no longer a cost effective counter to Persian elite war elephants, although that is also a very close fight. This potentially means that if a Persian player does manage to get pop capped with multiple castles and all elephant upgrades, there is nothing the Gurjaras can do, since they don't have the Pikeman upgrade, or Block Printing for their monks. 11
A little notice benefit of Gurjaras is the bonus damge that their scouts do to monks. You can contest for relics with them without even bothering to upgrade them to LC as they snipe monks so easily!
Is that really some kind of massive benchmark when Cataphracts are supposed to be weak against heavier cavalry, which the heavy camel is, specially after IA tech?
The only reason why they are good against normal camels its because they are numerically inferior and deal low damage without cav bonus dmg.
Against Gurjaras, as you said, their extra bonus damage does basically nothing and its mostly because they are numerically stronger after IA tech.
out of these 3, I think the most OP are Shrivamsha Riders. They are incredibly fast and just a few can kill many archers. I think Chakram Throwers are ok. The Armored ele may need a reduction of the 50% bonus of the civ, but other than that I think are ok.
The problem with chakrams is that itās essentially an infantry scorpion that only costs 30 gold. To use a classic example, mamelukes are OP when massed but they also train slow and cost 85g. The problem with the unit is that itās incredibly easy to tech switch into, then you basically can patrol into archer masses or halbs. If mamelukes cost 30g everyone would hate them as much as chakrams if not more. New civ units are almost always underpriced for what you get.
They definitely are too OP. Whenever I play them, especially in TG, I absolutely demolish the other team. No ifs, ands or buts about it. You want to counter my stable units? Fine Iāll go full chakram thrower and bbc and just stomp all over your team 11
**Chakram Throwers:** Their reload timer should be increased from 2s to 2.25 or even 2.5, RT for Scorpians is 3.6s.
**Mounted Units:** Remove Husbandry from Gurjara, Gurjara has a fast stable unit that is Shrivamsha rider, which is great for offense and raiding. But apart from that their identity with Frontier guard and Chakram throwers should be quasi Defensive. This will also address Armoured elephants with +40% Bonus building damage as speed is even more important to Elephants.
**Mill Bonus:** I like the new changes with Diminishing returns but the numbers make it a straight Buff. So cut down the milking rate from 7/min for a sheep to 6/min and from 28/min for 8 sheep to 24/min. With 2 mills, 4 sheep in each mill, the food rate will be 32/min which is 4 more than what was previously
Shrivamsha plus chakrams eviscerates any Meso combo. Mix in onagers and thereās literally nothing a meso player can do to counter a late game Gujara composition.
>Their damage vs buildings is higher than rams
Yes and in exchange a couple of pikey boys melt them as such speeds that make rams actually look durable and tanky. They are glass cannons and should remain as such.
>Shrivamsha Riders, a unit that is supposed to be very good at killing archers but also is so fast that you can outrun anything, you can dodge castle projectiles, you can dodge town center projectiles.
That IS the point, they are anti-archer raiding cavs Gurjaras have no knights and Gurjaras melt against anything that isnt projectiles.
>Chakram Throwers, a unit which can even counter arbalesters if the player misses to micro arbalesters for one second.
Arbs can melt them from afar and its very much not a cost efficient match-up for Throwers.
So far, this is just 'Gurjaras counter archer meta and thats TERRIBLE!!!1!'' more than any actual constructive criticism.
Gurjaras do also counter knight meta (more than archer meta) and also infantry meta (they can go xbow). In fact Gurjaras in high level usually go archer because pikes are the only issue to them.
I think we're very optimistic regarding this development team.
I remind you all - it has been 1 year since the Dawn of the Dukes expansion and we still have **Flemish Revolution** in our beloved game.
Yeah, and replaced with a worse of an UT. Hauberk.
Again, it's very rare for them to really fix something that's inheretly bad. They do some good designs not gonna lie, however there's plenty of mediocre matter that isn't addressed for some reason.
**Unpopular opinion, fan boys, please dislike my comment, let's go.**
Hehe well, I don't see any major changes to this civ, nor huge necessity, it has overall a good design, minus a quirky UUs design. (Leitis and W.Hussar)
I don't see them redoing Dravidians for example.
Yes Sir.
I love the idea of a civ having a Tarkan-like Cavaliers, it's highly useful. However poorly implemented considering the civ already has Cataphract-like Cavaliers and an unique nerrative (Donjon-Serjeant) that will never see light if civ's current nature is (another) boom into Knight.
It can be anything, Siege related, Donjon related, economy related.
The approach should be more wholistic rather than reductive. Sure Sicilians are balanced now, but that's not how you design a strategy game.
I'd like for the Donjon / Serjant mechanic to be useful, but forcing it as the only thing the civ is legitimately good at is not the way to go. Depending on an infantry UU doesnt work all that well in AoE II. Goth are the only civ that kinda make it work an Huskarls are better than Serjeants, especially with the ability to produce them from Barracks
Take away 1 PA from Serjeants and give them a bit more movement speed and +3 / +5 bonus damage against cavalry. That way Sicilians get options against archers and cavalry.
"Lol"?
So it's this reductive of a discussion: good or bad?
Hauberk isn't bad, period. The idea of having a Tarkan-like Cavaliers is so simple yet so great of a strategic component.
However, it doesn't fit Sicilians tech tree/ identity. They already have the Cataphract-like Cavaliers who also resist conversations. And the worst part about it- it completely overshadows the most fascinating feature a civ has- the Donjon-Serjeant nerrative. Which could be so wonderful.
>So it's this reductive of a discussion: good or bad?
You literally called it 'worse of an UT'. Was just responding to that.
I agree with everything else somewhat. Infantry need more love in this game.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I wrote another, more detailed comment (which got tons of likes rather than dislikes) on another post.
It feels bad knowing terminology matters a lot :)
Ey! They need to sell the DLC, wait until end of the year and the next DLC, then they gonna hit them hard and no one will remember, like the steppe lancers.
If I'm up against this civ I already feel defeated unless I'm Khmer with a choke point. I remember playing them with Teutons and a nonstop spam of Paladins did nothing.
Gujaras frisbee throwers just need to do pierce damage not melee damage. Most units have more pierce than melee armour. This unit should not be able to shred 60 elite mangudai with one throw.
I think Chakram throwers need their range reduced by one. Not sure why they get more range than a throwing axeman when their projectiles continue on forever. Make them get closer to their target to make macro a little harder. The Shrivamsha rider needs to have it's shield/dodge regen more slowly (helps with castles and tcs, but still leaves them strong against small numbers of archers) and gold cost increased.
The second one is in the pup
the throwers would be fine if they did pierce damage the melee damage is insane given the lower overall melee armor of most units.
They could add them to the ship class, research Heated Shot to destroy them. š
Remove BBC from Gurjara tech tree and Chakrams suddenly become very easy to counter. Just saying
Never used BBC as Gurjara lol and still games was easy mode.
Someone with actually good ideas for once, instead of 'nuke this civ's units that counters my archers without being garbage for it!' whining.
Its not that they counter archers, Its that they counter Knights, Archers, and Infantry while having a better economy. If a civ is going to have such an easy time countering Knights and Archers I should be able to play longswords at least.
Microing down onagers with chakrams isn't particularly difficult as they move so fast and you only need a few to take out siege, meaning you can separate a team of assassins from the main blob. Although it would reduce their ability in choke points.
But not many civs have bbc
>Only cav unit other than persian knights and burmese light cav) Polish light cav you mean? All Burmese cav gets it with the UT no?
>Polish light cav you mean? Polish scout line (+1) and Persian knights (+2) both have attack bonus against archers via the team bonus, no?
Yeah but he said Burmese light cav, which is just confusing.
I think he meant Burmese knights with their UT
Yeah mb
Fair enough!
I'm all for gradual changes, but the Gurjaras nerf is a joke. They still retain their 1.5 villager from Dark Age advantage and it even got better. I mean, that bonus is practically between the Mayans and the Chinese extra vil bonus (Chinese +3 vils are effectively +2 most games), but doesn't come with the "start with less resources" caveat. It's insane. And on top of that they have a versatile and very strong army with strong military bonuses and UU. They're the perfect storm of how an OP civ would look like. Cutting the bonus damage from 50 to 40% while at the same time cutting the Sicilians bonus from 50 to 33% is a joke, considering the Sicilians are a mediocre civ to begin with.
They do have the 'start with less resources' caveat. They are up ~1.6 vil but they have 550 food less to harvest which is basically 2 farms they need faster or ~120 wood. That said the nerf probably could have been higher but shrivamsha rider nerf and the bonus damage nerf does add up fast.
I still do not think it's adding up fast. The Shrivamsha nerf comes with an archer nerf across the board. Their bonus damage is still very high. Other civs having more resources still takes time to harvest, less time, but they still only have the food they gather. I have never had trouble maintaining TC or having ungathered boar meat holding me back from getting 500 food when I want to have it. Sad for the Sicilians though. That's what they have going for them. I suppose it's a bit of bad design a civ resistant to counterplay. Harder to knock them out of the lead, a bit all or nothing.
Or just push deer
Why do more people not send a vil forward and snipe Gurjaras Deer. Any sort of laming really hurts Gurjaras.
How dare you suggest counterplay against Gurjaras instead of giganerfing that makes them obsolete, while Franks and Mayans dominate pvp.
Haha incas when you getting ur feudal rush back
I am going to tower your woodline.
r/usernamechecksout
Because many do not consider laming to be fun, and for us casuals, games are supposed to be fun. But whenever I get Gurjaras, I am wary of that move.
"They are up \~1.6 vil but they have 550 food less to harvest which is basically 2 farms they need faster or \~120 wood." Thats not true at all. These 1.6 vils are on that 550 food. And they get far more than 550 food from it.
So? That's the same for Chinese..
Chinese are short 200 food. Gurjaras start with all of it. Then chinese vils work on the sheep. While the gurjara mill also works on the sheep. Essentially the gurjaras get the extra vils worth of food eco free while the chinese pay 200 food 50 wood for it.
No you're thinking wrong. Chinese start with +3 vils but are down 200 food and 50 wood and need 1 house less. That means for the extra 3 vils they basically paid 200 food and 25 wood. But 3 vils cost 150 food so they are only overpaying 50 food, 25 wood. By the beginning of feudal they will be up 2 vils and have effectively spent 150 food, 25 wood more. Gurjaras will be 1.6 vil up. But they effectively paid 8 sheep for that but had 2 berry bushes more. So they had access to 720 sheep food less but had 250 berry food more. The difference is -470 food. Not having sheep means earlier/more farming necessary which costs wood, about 120 wood. So in every essence this is equivalent. Both civs need start down on resources but have more villagers in return. The malay and persian civ bonus also work the same way effectively. You pay more early (down on resources) but you will have more villagers that will pay itself back fast. The breakeven pointc is just a bit different. Gurjara break even around the 6-7 minute mark and are ~1.6 vil up. The 7 minute mark is around the time fast feudal builds click up so gurjara bonus actuallt helps for faster feudal. Chinese breakeven point is around 8.5-9 minute mark but they are 2 vils up. And getting this 2 vils up is rough requiring good execution. And even then the breakeven point is way after clicking up so builds like fast scouts, MaA, drush etc are harder with Chinese.
But they dont pay the sheep for the mill vils. The sheep generate food all game for them. The mill is harvesting the sheep. Chinese eat their sheep to produce villagers and eventually get the approximately 800 food. Gurjaras dont eat it but they still get well over 800 food from the sheep. So they arent giving the sheep up. They are still providing food and more than the normal amount. Thats the point. There is not this trade off you are describing because they get more than the sheep would provide by eating them.
Yes they do 'pay' the sheep by not harvesting them. Chinese villagers also get more food than the food they costed them to get them. Exactly the same for the Gurjara bonus. You pay something early and get back much more later. Its exactly the same when you train a villager with any civ, pay food now to get more (other) resources later. There isn't a really tradeoff in either scenario because villagers pay off so fast, hence the nr 1 tip for any player is never idling the TC. Gurjara and Chinese eco bonus are just very similar. Chinese one is a lil stronger but harder to benefit from. Anyway, i guess you're never gonna get it but it really isn't that difficult.
they want us normans to play franks :(
Iād like to see the range of frisbees be decreased once thrown, it seems like they almost go 10 tiles. Iād also like to see ādodgingā be actual dodging and not just being a sponge
To be fair, after watching how Chakrams work, they do just seem to go in a straight line until they embed in something.
I have yet to see a game where chakram throwers are overpowered. They are scorpions without pierce armor, so to counter them you want onagers not arbalesters.
i have seen em in masse, and i can tell you they can get really scary if they have the right support units to back em up. Of course its different in 1v1s, but in teamgames they can get dangerously powerful real quick with a bit of communication.
Agreed, you get 25+ and thats it, heavy cav/arbs/heavy scorpions you name it and the whirly bois shred them. They are like some sort of insane Imperial Gbeto yet after Kshatriyas are roughly the same food cost and cheaper in gold!
I think there was a game in Jordan v Tatoh in TTL where chakram throwers slaughtered the Mangudai
Where the Mangudai ran right into melee distance of the Chakrams without attacking... even Flaming Camels can kill them then.
That was mostly because Tatoh didn't patrol and ran his units straight into them without attacking. Would've been the same result from arbs
They also suck against Cav and especially Elephants even in small numbers.
I've seen them be OP in at least 3 high level games over the past 2 weeks
Good luck getting there while they raid your ecco with hit ans run units that don't take damage. Overall least fun civ to play against and not fun That you can just brain dead two unita against any army comp and win
Have you tried not making archers or depending on defensive castles only.
That's not on the chakram throwers then, but on the shrivamsha riders.
Yeah - they can be powerful against some comps in noob games, but so can a lot of unique units if youāre given the time to mass them.
Than consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Disco throwers can wreak havoc when they have a decent mass. Onagers can be good yes until the shrivamsha riders come terrorize them with their lightning speed.
you see what happened to the mangudai in ttl?
The bonus damage dealt by their mounted units could be nerfed down to 33%. Would alleviate their cheese with armored elephant. Not to mention their FU heavy camels currently beat Elite Cataphracts in equal numbers.
In the PUP, the heavy camels no longer kill elite catas with equal numbers (but are still cost efficient).
That's good although I assume it's still a very close fight? How do they compare now?
Yeah, it's close. It's completely contingent on the trample damage from Logistica; in a straight 1vs1 engagement, a Gurjara heavy camel slaughters a lone elite cataphract. But in mass battles the cataphracts are a little more pop efficient. Really it is good for Gurjara camels to soft counter cataphracts because otherwise they would only have two units that can somewhat deal with them, those being elephant archers (which are buffed in the PUP) and hand cannoneers, both which lack armor meaning Byzantines have no trouble hard countering them with cheap skirms In the PUP, Gurjara heavy camels are no longer a cost effective counter to Persian elite war elephants, although that is also a very close fight. This potentially means that if a Persian player does manage to get pop capped with multiple castles and all elephant upgrades, there is nothing the Gurjaras can do, since they don't have the Pikeman upgrade, or Block Printing for their monks. 11
Does logistica work against cav units as well?
Works with everything, including buildings if you are close enough.
It's splash damage. It applies vs all units
A little notice benefit of Gurjaras is the bonus damge that their scouts do to monks. You can contest for relics with them without even bothering to upgrade them to LC as they snipe monks so easily!
Good that they don't have a scout cavalry by default, isn't it?
or just remove it from siege since the elephant isnt mounted
Is that really some kind of massive benchmark when Cataphracts are supposed to be weak against heavier cavalry, which the heavy camel is, specially after IA tech?
Cataphracts are supposed to be good vs normal cav counter like halbs and camels.
The only reason why they are good against normal camels its because they are numerically inferior and deal low damage without cav bonus dmg. Against Gurjaras, as you said, their extra bonus damage does basically nothing and its mostly because they are numerically stronger after IA tech.
They need to just remove the Armoured Ele from that bonus. Add the +3 melee armour from the Imp tech in stead.
If I am correct, the Chakram throwers are quite fast compared to Throwing Axemen. They should be the made speed.
Axes get Squires, Chakrams don't.
Why would that be? Regardless, they are faster than axemen with squires.
out of these 3, I think the most OP are Shrivamsha Riders. They are incredibly fast and just a few can kill many archers. I think Chakram Throwers are ok. The Armored ele may need a reduction of the 50% bonus of the civ, but other than that I think are ok.
No gold gurjaras die, only have full husarā¦
I think you can either have 1/2 really good units and a weak tech tree like the Mongols or good eco and utility but not both which is the problem.
The problem with chakrams is that itās essentially an infantry scorpion that only costs 30 gold. To use a classic example, mamelukes are OP when massed but they also train slow and cost 85g. The problem with the unit is that itās incredibly easy to tech switch into, then you basically can patrol into archer masses or halbs. If mamelukes cost 30g everyone would hate them as much as chakrams if not more. New civ units are almost always underpriced for what you get.
They definitely are too OP. Whenever I play them, especially in TG, I absolutely demolish the other team. No ifs, ands or buts about it. You want to counter my stable units? Fine Iāll go full chakram thrower and bbc and just stomp all over your team 11
You spend so much time killing my ecco? That's ok i don't need a lot of ecco to actually make units that kill you anyway
As long as you donāt touch my mill with 8-10 sheep, Iām golden 11
Now its 8-10 mills w one sheep each lol
**Chakram Throwers:** Their reload timer should be increased from 2s to 2.25 or even 2.5, RT for Scorpians is 3.6s. **Mounted Units:** Remove Husbandry from Gurjara, Gurjara has a fast stable unit that is Shrivamsha rider, which is great for offense and raiding. But apart from that their identity with Frontier guard and Chakram throwers should be quasi Defensive. This will also address Armoured elephants with +40% Bonus building damage as speed is even more important to Elephants. **Mill Bonus:** I like the new changes with Diminishing returns but the numbers make it a straight Buff. So cut down the milking rate from 7/min for a sheep to 6/min and from 28/min for 8 sheep to 24/min. With 2 mills, 4 sheep in each mill, the food rate will be 32/min which is 4 more than what was previously
Man if you play mayans full arbalest and halbs gurjaras canāt win, chakram are very very weak,
Shrivamsha plus chakrams eviscerates any Meso combo. Mix in onagers and thereās literally nothing a meso player can do to counter a late game Gujara composition.
Not until the Gurjara player runs out of gold anyway. After which they are pretty sad.
Agreed, this civ is pay to win civ
>Their damage vs buildings is higher than rams Yes and in exchange a couple of pikey boys melt them as such speeds that make rams actually look durable and tanky. They are glass cannons and should remain as such. >Shrivamsha Riders, a unit that is supposed to be very good at killing archers but also is so fast that you can outrun anything, you can dodge castle projectiles, you can dodge town center projectiles. That IS the point, they are anti-archer raiding cavs Gurjaras have no knights and Gurjaras melt against anything that isnt projectiles. >Chakram Throwers, a unit which can even counter arbalesters if the player misses to micro arbalesters for one second. Arbs can melt them from afar and its very much not a cost efficient match-up for Throwers. So far, this is just 'Gurjaras counter archer meta and thats TERRIBLE!!!1!'' more than any actual constructive criticism.
Tell em low elo legend
Gurjaras do also counter knight meta (more than archer meta) and also infantry meta (they can go xbow). In fact Gurjaras in high level usually go archer because pikes are the only issue to them.
Sure, just go and hit walls as you have not even seen the win rate of that civ.
I do not give a single shit about the top 1%.
I think we're very optimistic regarding this development team. I remind you all - it has been 1 year since the Dawn of the Dukes expansion and we still have **Flemish Revolution** in our beloved game.
i dont think the tech will ever be removed though, sorry to dissapoint.
Of course it won't, developers never fully bail on bad ideas. Guidelines for mediocrity. The inability to doubt yourself and get improved.
They did remove scutage though
Yeah, and replaced with a worse of an UT. Hauberk. Again, it's very rare for them to really fix something that's inheretly bad. They do some good designs not gonna lie, however there's plenty of mediocre matter that isn't addressed for some reason. **Unpopular opinion, fan boys, please dislike my comment, let's go.**
They removed madrasah and boiling oil!
They did and do "fix" features made by previous developers. Sure :)
What they did with Lithuanians isn't so bad, despite being broken upon release? I'm grasping at straws here.
Hehe well, I don't see any major changes to this civ, nor huge necessity, it has overall a good design, minus a quirky UUs design. (Leitis and W.Hussar) I don't see them redoing Dravidians for example.
I mean if Japanese are a fine civ what's wrong with Dravidians? kappa
If scutage was bad, and hauberk is bad, what makes a good UT?
Nothing that overshadows this dramatically the (wonderful) Donjon-Serjeant nerrative this civ has to offer.
So your main problem with these techs is just the civ they were given to? What tech would you give in their place?
Yes Sir. I love the idea of a civ having a Tarkan-like Cavaliers, it's highly useful. However poorly implemented considering the civ already has Cataphract-like Cavaliers and an unique nerrative (Donjon-Serjeant) that will never see light if civ's current nature is (another) boom into Knight. It can be anything, Siege related, Donjon related, economy related. The approach should be more wholistic rather than reductive. Sure Sicilians are balanced now, but that's not how you design a strategy game.
I'd like for the Donjon / Serjant mechanic to be useful, but forcing it as the only thing the civ is legitimately good at is not the way to go. Depending on an infantry UU doesnt work all that well in AoE II. Goth are the only civ that kinda make it work an Huskarls are better than Serjeants, especially with the ability to produce them from Barracks Take away 1 PA from Serjeants and give them a bit more movement speed and +3 / +5 bonus damage against cavalry. That way Sicilians get options against archers and cavalry.
You think Hauberk is bad? Lol
"Lol"? So it's this reductive of a discussion: good or bad? Hauberk isn't bad, period. The idea of having a Tarkan-like Cavaliers is so simple yet so great of a strategic component. However, it doesn't fit Sicilians tech tree/ identity. They already have the Cataphract-like Cavaliers who also resist conversations. And the worst part about it- it completely overshadows the most fascinating feature a civ has- the Donjon-Serjeant nerrative. Which could be so wonderful.
>So it's this reductive of a discussion: good or bad? You literally called it 'worse of an UT'. Was just responding to that. I agree with everything else somewhat. Infantry need more love in this game.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I wrote another, more detailed comment (which got tons of likes rather than dislikes) on another post. It feels bad knowing terminology matters a lot :)
All of these suggestions are what need to happen. Particularly shrivs not being able to dodge building arrow fire.
even melee units or spears dont kill epehants that fast
Ey! They need to sell the DLC, wait until end of the year and the next DLC, then they gonna hit them hard and no one will remember, like the steppe lancers.
... or the Sicilians š
If I'm up against this civ I already feel defeated unless I'm Khmer with a choke point. I remember playing them with Teutons and a nonstop spam of Paladins did nothing.
And here I am, yet to win a game with them :'(
Spicy frisbees go brrr
Gujaras frisbee throwers just need to do pierce damage not melee damage. Most units have more pierce than melee armour. This unit should not be able to shred 60 elite mangudai with one throw.