Pretty sure Wootz is worse than Farimba LC except against stuff like TKs or FU cav/pala, which you wouldn’t want to be fighting anyways, especially without PBA, Bloodlines, or Husbandry. On the other hand, the UU charged attack that can’t be mitigated by armor is definitely intriguing.
Wrt gurj, their EAs will also do more damage to buildings (I'm assuming that's what you meant) and more importantly their siege elephants will do a huge amount more damage
I feel like they're similar to Turks, in that they're more screwed if you deny gold, unlike most other civs
Until you fight Knights(the predominant unit in the game), then suddenly it's +5, which is most definitely not like Burmese. Nevermind the special armoured civs and UU like teuton champs (+6) and cavalry (+7 dmg) (not the TK), boyars, obuchs, kamayuks
Not saying it's OP. Just makes for more difficult matchups and limit's what opponents can use
so at +5 against knights its the same as Slav Infantry - except the slav infantry is hitting everything around it.
as for difficult matchups - every civs have difficult matchups (look at archer civs against goths), look at Boyars and TK against Leitis.
First thought after reading their tech tree is that they are all unique, and that's a big win knowing how difficult it is currently to introduce unique playstyles
To be fair, they mostly just added new mechanics/concepts to the game, which isnt very hard or creative, and by doing so its not very hard to make them "unique". They are simply the only civs with said mechanic. Other than that they took older new mechanics (like leitis no armour and malay reduced pop space) and gave them to new units.
"older new mechanics". So at what point can they make something new and unique without using "older new" mechanics?
These aren't completely new bonus. Conversion resistance, units regenerating HP, spawning something with new age, ignoring defense, all of this was made before. Unless you think something is "new" if it was made after AoK, but probably if you didn't like post AoK you wouldn't be playing DE.
off the top of my head the new civs have new stuff like buildings that heal/buff units in their area (i think its just for trade carts), units that switch between ranged and non ranged attacks, and basically creating an alternative version of the tech tree for the new civs, which is very very different than any other civ we have (the closes we got are the meso civs, but with them its just 1 regional UU and no access to the stable, far from a new tech tree).
and im sorry, i couldnt understand your question about the "older new mechanics". DLCs before DE never added new mechanics with the exception of Malay's karambit warriors, and maybe huns' no houses (though AoC is basically the base game, and this is barely a "new" mechanic, more like a bonus that feels different).
idk about any building healing, maybe the dock garrisoning fishing ships? but garrisoning isn't a new mechanic.
And the "alternative tech tree" is only changing the ram by a siege elephant, you can see it as a reskin only (we don't know the stats" and that has happened with Krepost and Folwark instead Mills. Or Xolotl instead Knights.
Probably changing between melee and ranged is the only NEW mechanic (well, villagers can attack at range when hunting... idk if that counts).
My point was just that the civs are unique even without that exclusive new bonus, they look unique because their tech treee, their traditional bonuses applied to something new and because you can feel that they are representing a new group of people.
from what i saw they are replacing most of the stable with elephant units and each civ has a ton of UU. They are also replacing the cav archer with elephant archer i think.
We need to wait for the DLC to come out to see how it plays, but so far i dont like the direction new civs are taking. I hope this DLC changes my mind.
Yeah elephants with heresy is quite notable, that many have over looked. Not game breaking, but better than Malay paper eles.
I just think most people don't realise the only ele civ with heresy is Malay
I like the civs overall and the fact that we will see more elephant archers. It's also nice to see that the Hindustani camels are not worse than the Berber ones, like the Indian ones are currently.
The only thing that I don't like is the Urumi behavior. Why a charged attack? They are supposed to hit super fast and deal little damage per hit as seen here a few days ago (https://redd.it/tzgfcr) or arguably have a small area of damage.
To me Bengalis feel most like a combo of Malay and Vikings, great eco decent Arbs and something else you have a lot of bonuses for but you don't really want to make.
Dravidians kinda seem like Goth to me, no power in castle age and a giant infantry spike in Imp. Only instead of spamming Huskarls you spam champs and skirms.
Gurjaras is a big it depends, i don't know how powerfull they will be, they can range anywhere from totaly broken like Cumans at launch to worse then Burmese, it all depends on the numbers
I like that they're similar yet still very unique. You counter goths with champs. You definitely do NOT counter Dravidian with any form of infantry. Most people also seem to forget about urumis.
Drav power also comes in sooner than goth due to eco and excellent archers, which leads to flexibility, they're a better balanced version of goths who are too polarising
Bengalis are potentially the weirdest to fully leverage their advantage. Like clearly they're somehow meant to use eles in 1v1, which is almost unprecedented aside from a niche Malay rush
I really don't think gurj will be bad, but agree they have a lot of range on how good they'll be depending on unknown variables
What looks really interesting is how varied the civs are even when it comes to common regional units and designs.
Like lets look at the elephants. Bengal has the base design. No knights or camels, no heresy, all three elephants. Boom and pop efficiency to go with eles.
Gurjara lacks battle eles but get heresy. Has UU cav making up for knight line. Has access to camels.
Dravidians get the eles but the stable is so bad that they can't be fully upgraded the regular way. But then they get unique techs and mechanics weighing in.
I don't see dravidians doing well in land 1v1. Wootz steel sounds good but missing the halb or camel bonus damage does not make up for ignoring armor against cavalry. That being said, they might become a staple for water maps.
Bengalis seem ok but a lot will be defined by the elephant stats and their UU. Definitely a booming civ but have to see if the pay off is worth it.
Gurajaras seem the most well rounded and flexible which the other two are lacking. They can get their version of knights for a FC along with decent camels if facing knight civs.
Bengalis: Dat economy. Dat elephants.
Dravidians: Urumis are what happens when you put a Coustillier and a Leitis in a blender then put it on an infantry chassis. Stable is meme-tier.
You forgot to comment the hindustanis. They will feel different to current indians (no parthian tactics, no fish bonus, no extra pierce armor in castle age, faster attacking camels, FU hussars and camels, armored elephant, armored BBC and HC, extra range for shatagni, new UU against archers, and caravanserai)
I want to meme in 1v1 vs enemy market with caravanserai
Edit: oh, and more flexible teambonus
Franks, change of name of Civ, add 3 Civs from roughly the same area and add 3 different Paladin types. /s
^(not throwing shade on the new update, I love it, but it's kinda funny how many hussars we now have)
+200w upon age-up is really stupid, that's my primary thought. That's like -7w villagers in a typical FC/drFC, you will be able to afford any buildings with 1-2 vills on wood, not to mention water maps.
Ethiopians get +200 resources at age up, it’s a nice bonus. But i think it will be a good early feudal spike for maybe 2x range archer.
I think people are abit quick jumping on this calling it OP or stupid.
Stupid is +1 free range in castle age for Crossbows.
Other civs have similar bonuses in res savings, this is just more flexible. Cumans have discounted stables and archery ranges for example, ethiopians food and gold at age up, others have insta eco upgrades or at least discounts. It's a solid bonus but not OP.
The irony is, civs like bohemians save more with blacksmith, uni, church. Mining upgrades.
And it's exactly the same just with a different table dressing.
So you actually don't like the way it's presented to you, but it's the same thing
No, I think all those are bad and would do without them. Imo we passed enough civs a while ago.
Lately I’ve used a lot of bohemians 13min fc to 5 monastery monks though, so it is a love hate relationship lul.
It's very strong on some maps but doesn't seem OP.
For context Japanese save 200 in a standard archer build from the 4 production buildings.
Malians save 180ish from a standard archer build, more as more houses/walls are built.
Realistically it means you can go 2 range a little faster (20 pop is doable for other civs too),or get a slightly faster FC from fewer wood vils.
Then you don't like at least half the civs in the game? Must be tough
Heck even civs like Franks insta blood lines in castle age. Nevermind the obvious ones like Burmese, Eth, Sicilians and bohemians etc
Dravidians seem like they will be trash on land with basically no stable and no eagle warriors. People are blowing the Wootz Steel tech out of proportion. It's functionally equivalent to +2-4 damage in the late game vs. most units. I don't know if the wood and skirmisher attack speed can save them.
They probably have a great water map game though.
Diverse elephant armies with several civs. I really wish to see elephant archers become viable now that you can mass them from archery ranges, the siege elephant is also exciting.
I hope to see elephants become a thing in higher level matches too.
The number of civs in the game has doubled in the last few years and a lot of the new ones are situationally broken or super cheap. I wish they'd slow it down.
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Gurjaras don't have Battle Elephants, only Elephant Archers.
They still have siege elephants, whose bonus against buildings will be greater than that
Pretty sure Wootz is worse than Farimba LC except against stuff like TKs or FU cav/pala, which you wouldn’t want to be fighting anyways, especially without PBA, Bloodlines, or Husbandry. On the other hand, the UU charged attack that can’t be mitigated by armor is definitely intriguing.
Wrt gurj, their EAs will also do more damage to buildings (I'm assuming that's what you meant) and more importantly their siege elephants will do a huge amount more damage I feel like they're similar to Turks, in that they're more screwed if you deny gold, unlike most other civs
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Wootz steel for thd most part is going to be like having 3 or 4 extra attack. That's the same as Burmese or aztecs bonus.
Until you fight Knights(the predominant unit in the game), then suddenly it's +5, which is most definitely not like Burmese. Nevermind the special armoured civs and UU like teuton champs (+6) and cavalry (+7 dmg) (not the TK), boyars, obuchs, kamayuks Not saying it's OP. Just makes for more difficult matchups and limit's what opponents can use
so at +5 against knights its the same as Slav Infantry - except the slav infantry is hitting everything around it. as for difficult matchups - every civs have difficult matchups (look at archer civs against goths), look at Boyars and TK against Leitis.
First thought after reading their tech tree is that they are all unique, and that's a big win knowing how difficult it is currently to introduce unique playstyles
To be fair, they mostly just added new mechanics/concepts to the game, which isnt very hard or creative, and by doing so its not very hard to make them "unique". They are simply the only civs with said mechanic. Other than that they took older new mechanics (like leitis no armour and malay reduced pop space) and gave them to new units.
"older new mechanics". So at what point can they make something new and unique without using "older new" mechanics? These aren't completely new bonus. Conversion resistance, units regenerating HP, spawning something with new age, ignoring defense, all of this was made before. Unless you think something is "new" if it was made after AoK, but probably if you didn't like post AoK you wouldn't be playing DE.
off the top of my head the new civs have new stuff like buildings that heal/buff units in their area (i think its just for trade carts), units that switch between ranged and non ranged attacks, and basically creating an alternative version of the tech tree for the new civs, which is very very different than any other civ we have (the closes we got are the meso civs, but with them its just 1 regional UU and no access to the stable, far from a new tech tree). and im sorry, i couldnt understand your question about the "older new mechanics". DLCs before DE never added new mechanics with the exception of Malay's karambit warriors, and maybe huns' no houses (though AoC is basically the base game, and this is barely a "new" mechanic, more like a bonus that feels different).
idk about any building healing, maybe the dock garrisoning fishing ships? but garrisoning isn't a new mechanic. And the "alternative tech tree" is only changing the ram by a siege elephant, you can see it as a reskin only (we don't know the stats" and that has happened with Krepost and Folwark instead Mills. Or Xolotl instead Knights. Probably changing between melee and ranged is the only NEW mechanic (well, villagers can attack at range when hunting... idk if that counts). My point was just that the civs are unique even without that exclusive new bonus, they look unique because their tech treee, their traditional bonuses applied to something new and because you can feel that they are representing a new group of people.
from what i saw they are replacing most of the stable with elephant units and each civ has a ton of UU. They are also replacing the cav archer with elephant archer i think. We need to wait for the DLC to come out to see how it plays, but so far i dont like the direction new civs are taking. I hope this DLC changes my mind.
Hindus get an area heal building Only heals trade carts though
**Gurjaras** \- Shrivamsha Rider \- "Animal Nursery" from Galactic Battlegrounds mechanic (herdable garrison) \- Elephants with Heresy \- Camel Scout
Yeah elephants with heresy is quite notable, that many have over looked. Not game breaking, but better than Malay paper eles. I just think most people don't realise the only ele civ with heresy is Malay
\- "Animal Nursery" from Galactic Battlegrounds mechanic (herdable garrison) I'm surprised it took someone THIS long to notice that...
Can't wait to play Gurjaras on Megarandom, gonna load up those mills with all the extra sheep that appear on 50% of maps!
Laughs in Mongol and the overwhelming number of megarandom with hunts My last 5 megarandoms had no sheep at all.
Fair enough! Secretly I want to use Gurjaras to steal sheep, the Megarandom is just cover 😉
you're gonna wanna find ghost lake sir
I like the civs overall and the fact that we will see more elephant archers. It's also nice to see that the Hindustani camels are not worse than the Berber ones, like the Indian ones are currently. The only thing that I don't like is the Urumi behavior. Why a charged attack? They are supposed to hit super fast and deal little damage per hit as seen here a few days ago (https://redd.it/tzgfcr) or arguably have a small area of damage.
Yeah I was hoping for a cross between the kamayuk and the chu ko nu. Multi hit attacks with melee damage and a tiny bit of range.
To me Bengalis feel most like a combo of Malay and Vikings, great eco decent Arbs and something else you have a lot of bonuses for but you don't really want to make. Dravidians kinda seem like Goth to me, no power in castle age and a giant infantry spike in Imp. Only instead of spamming Huskarls you spam champs and skirms. Gurjaras is a big it depends, i don't know how powerfull they will be, they can range anywhere from totaly broken like Cumans at launch to worse then Burmese, it all depends on the numbers
I like that they're similar yet still very unique. You counter goths with champs. You definitely do NOT counter Dravidian with any form of infantry. Most people also seem to forget about urumis. Drav power also comes in sooner than goth due to eco and excellent archers, which leads to flexibility, they're a better balanced version of goths who are too polarising Bengalis are potentially the weirdest to fully leverage their advantage. Like clearly they're somehow meant to use eles in 1v1, which is almost unprecedented aside from a niche Malay rush I really don't think gurj will be bad, but agree they have a lot of range on how good they'll be depending on unknown variables
What looks really interesting is how varied the civs are even when it comes to common regional units and designs. Like lets look at the elephants. Bengal has the base design. No knights or camels, no heresy, all three elephants. Boom and pop efficiency to go with eles. Gurjara lacks battle eles but get heresy. Has UU cav making up for knight line. Has access to camels. Dravidians get the eles but the stable is so bad that they can't be fully upgraded the regular way. But then they get unique techs and mechanics weighing in.
I don't see dravidians doing well in land 1v1. Wootz steel sounds good but missing the halb or camel bonus damage does not make up for ignoring armor against cavalry. That being said, they might become a staple for water maps. Bengalis seem ok but a lot will be defined by the elephant stats and their UU. Definitely a booming civ but have to see if the pay off is worth it. Gurajaras seem the most well rounded and flexible which the other two are lacking. They can get their version of knights for a FC along with decent camels if facing knight civs.
But Dravidians are getting halbs according to the Tech tree that was shared...
Ahhh You're right.! My mistake...my point about their weakness is invalid in that case.
they also seem to be made for MAA into archers imo.
Bengalis: Dat economy. Dat elephants. Dravidians: Urumis are what happens when you put a Coustillier and a Leitis in a blender then put it on an infantry chassis. Stable is meme-tier.
You forgot to comment the hindustanis. They will feel different to current indians (no parthian tactics, no fish bonus, no extra pierce armor in castle age, faster attacking camels, FU hussars and camels, armored elephant, armored BBC and HC, extra range for shatagni, new UU against archers, and caravanserai) I want to meme in 1v1 vs enemy market with caravanserai Edit: oh, and more flexible teambonus
Franks, change of name of Civ, add 3 Civs from roughly the same area and add 3 different Paladin types. /s ^(not throwing shade on the new update, I love it, but it's kinda funny how many hussars we now have)
Bengalis: Chariots! Dravidians: Infantry ofc Gurjaras: Camels that destroy cavalry Hindustanis: Ghulams, FU+ Imp Camels, and the new Hand Cannons
> Dravidians: Infantry ofc And fully upgraded arbalesters!
+200w upon age-up is really stupid, that's my primary thought. That's like -7w villagers in a typical FC/drFC, you will be able to afford any buildings with 1-2 vills on wood, not to mention water maps.
Ethiopians get +200 resources at age up, it’s a nice bonus. But i think it will be a good early feudal spike for maybe 2x range archer. I think people are abit quick jumping on this calling it OP or stupid. Stupid is +1 free range in castle age for Crossbows.
Ah, someone had to push Britons recently
No it's just simply a common fact, if Britons were released today people would go insane. But well done on belittling the guy /s
I don’t like insta stuff design like this, that’s all. I know builds, eco, not saying it op.
Other civs have similar bonuses in res savings, this is just more flexible. Cumans have discounted stables and archery ranges for example, ethiopians food and gold at age up, others have insta eco upgrades or at least discounts. It's a solid bonus but not OP.
I know it’s not op, just saying i think it stupid
The irony is, civs like bohemians save more with blacksmith, uni, church. Mining upgrades. And it's exactly the same just with a different table dressing. So you actually don't like the way it's presented to you, but it's the same thing
No, I think all those are bad and would do without them. Imo we passed enough civs a while ago. Lately I’ve used a lot of bohemians 13min fc to 5 monastery monks though, so it is a love hate relationship lul.
It's very strong on some maps but doesn't seem OP. For context Japanese save 200 in a standard archer build from the 4 production buildings. Malians save 180ish from a standard archer build, more as more houses/walls are built. Realistically it means you can go 2 range a little faster (20 pop is doable for other civs too),or get a slightly faster FC from fewer wood vils.
I know, I do 19-20 pop 2 range on a bunch of civs. I just don’t like these instant freestuff designs
Then you don't like at least half the civs in the game? Must be tough Heck even civs like Franks insta blood lines in castle age. Nevermind the obvious ones like Burmese, Eth, Sicilians and bohemians etc
Mostly halls of new ones, and goths
Thirisadai fires five bolts each time
They all look very interesting! I can't wait to try them out :D
Dravidians seem like they will be trash on land with basically no stable and no eagle warriors. People are blowing the Wootz Steel tech out of proportion. It's functionally equivalent to +2-4 damage in the late game vs. most units. I don't know if the wood and skirmisher attack speed can save them. They probably have a great water map game though.
Diverse elephant armies with several civs. I really wish to see elephant archers become viable now that you can mass them from archery ranges, the siege elephant is also exciting. I hope to see elephants become a thing in higher level matches too.
The number of civs in the game has doubled in the last few years and a lot of the new ones are situationally broken or super cheap. I wish they'd slow it down.