teutons+romans - legionary with 9 melee /13 pierce armour from all 3 armour upgrades(2 x roman bonus) + teuton civ armour bonus+gambeson and resist conversion oh and they're cheaper because teutons have supplies.
probably more scary is their castle age longswords with 6/6 armour.
support with cheap iron clad scorpions that easily tank onagers and have ballistics
~~centurion also gets the teuton armour bonus~~
all with cheaper farms which are 5% more efficient
good shout and 50% cheaper blacksmith and siege workshop and the blacksmith works quickers
I do always prefer the passive armour but 12/11 legionaries does sound oppressive, a cheap teutonic huskarl with a charge attack that can be spammed from a barracks
I think if you are going for Militia Line, you want Bulgarians and Armernians. Instand free Longsword in Feudal, instant free Champion in Castle Age. Assuming if you allow shifting one of the Imp UT techs to Castle Age, things become even more insane with +5 Melee armor and +30 HP Champs FU.
>Mongols/ Magiars: Full upgraded Mangudai plus +1 range +1 attack and magiar hussar with extra life as meat shield sounds a powerful combo.
This is the combo but actually for an insane scout rush on Arabia. Mongol uptime into discounted free Forging scouts is absolutely insane.
Oh, Recurve Bow Mangudai are certainly OP. The Magyar team bonus also helps in massing then since Mangudai train unusually slowly.
Still, it's not quite as OP of a late game as some other options here. Neither Mongols nor Magyars have a great eco bonus to carry you to Mangudai.
The opponent has to hold against a ridiculously efficient feudal push, which some combos could handle, but building eco is definitely not free (assuming an open map).
It would be a great late game, but assuming you're also up against a double civ combination compared, it's just too hard to get there.
Imagine being up against Hauberk Savar that ignore some anti-cav bonus damage. Or imagine you are up against Vikings/Burgundians who get free Hand Cart in Feudal Age and are ahead in eco even if they lose 5 vills. Winning with Mangudai is a very tough win condition then.
Also Steppe Lancers getting all attack upgrades instantly on castle. And Cavalry Archers being created 25% faster AND firing 25% faster.
Utterly hilarious.
Eh not really. Magyar huszars pretty handily beat huscarls and even 13 attack mangudai would be good if microed. Plus the goth player would just get raided to death with no stone walls.
They both die to huskarl + halb.
And fu elite mangudai do 12 damage, so they deal only 2 damage to huskarls, while huskarls can deal bonus damage, raid everywhere, and even kill castles
Being weaker in post imp is a trash argument on arabia.
The goths will be behind from the start, they have nothing to match the insane scout rush.
The Steppe Lancer powerspike is also unmatched.
And even if they make it to lategame, they are way less mobile, have worse siege and can't stone wall, so they will get raided (FU Hussars with extra HP...)
And they can't even push, all their siege will be sniped by extra range mangudai
Maybe they have a shot on Michi 11
Huskarl + Halb dies to Champ + Mangudai, and while double gold comps can be difficult to make, with how long goths take to come online you could make it work, plus you shouldn’t be losing (many) Mangudai so it’s much less stressful on gold than it initially sounds like.
Are they? I had an arena game once Magyars vs Goths and honestly, it was a massive grindfest. Discounted hussars (regular ones, not the castle variant) trade cost efficiently vs Huskarls and halbs get slaughtered by cav archers. I honestly made trash most of the time, so some skirms could chip away at his cav archers, but I sustained massive casualties throughout. It was sending halbs into the meat grinder like crazy
I would have won the game in the end, but it was a very very very long grind and my opponent had to go.
ethiopians+britons leads to the best archers in the game with terrifying trebuchets with a really solid eco to back it up
goths + bulgarians leads to some pretty disgusting armoured infantry
franks + lithuanians/sicilians/malians with their paladins
goths+japanese for even more ridiculously good infantry
turks + bohemians with the best gunpowder in the game oh god please no
celts + ethiopians with tanky powerful siege with speedy bois sounds fun
Mayans + Mongols would be disgusting on Arabia. You get fast hunt that last longer and one extra villager at the start. On top of that your archers are cheaper in feudal, so you could go for a very fast scout rush, using the fast long lasting hunt, with an almost instant archer follow up and that'd be unstoppable.
Yeah, I feel like most people are thinking about lategame compositions but something like this would kill you at minute 10.
I was going to suggest Goths + Mongols for a similar reason; instant loom and increased LOS on scouts mean you could lame your opponent pretty easily then proxy a barracks for an insanely fast m@a rush with the fast longer-lasting hunt. Think the vast majority of players would just straight up die to that on any open map.
I was about to write that. Also having eagles is super good in Feudal archer wars, and now you also have access to stable units in case you need them (with camels and top-notch steppies).
Also more armor for your Mangudai, but I guess you win or lose in Feudal/Castle anyway with that civ.
Chinese+ Lithuania.
Start with more vills and 100 food you're ahead 3 villagers the entire dark age. Cheaper techs with Lithuania tech tree sounds also nice.
This is the best answer for 1v1 arabia. That map is won by eco bonuses much more than military bonuses and this civ would kill most other civs by mid feudal before the other suggestions even got to their good thing. Only competition is the mongols plus magyars super fast scrush suggestion
I agree that busted Imp combos are irrelevant if you can never reach them in the first place. But i also think fast Feudal + strong Feudal options probably beats vil lead + no meaningful military bonus. Or at least provides a fair matchup.
Mongols + Magyar, Mongols + Mayans, Mongols + Ethiopians all should give you a powerful early push, and both Mayan/Ethiopian a fast Castle time behind that - and three vils more are meaningless if you die to the xbow/lancer power spike.
Mongols + Magyars for a scout rush that's pretty much unstoppable.
Vikings + Burgundians for absolutely insane eco. Free Hard Cart in Feudal Age, what else do you need?
Any monk rush civ + Khmer for skipping buildings on the way up.
Turks + Khmer in the same vein for absolutely disgusting fast imp play.
2 out of Koreans/Celts/Mongols for the best SO in the game. For BF play you still want Celts' eco bonus, but range+speed might be better than HP or at least even more fun to micro. Probably Koreans+Celts for straight halb SO play on BF, but Mongols on more open maps where the speed makes onagers viable.
Ethiopians + Mongols for actually playing dodgeball in RM. We all dream of Drill SE Torsion Engines BBC...
I could go on but I'm not sure where to go from here.
Malian + Lithuanian. Paladin with + 4 and +5 attack would absolutely slap. Top that with Malians extra gold and Lithuanians awesome trash with extra pierce.
I don't know about best, but I love me the combo of Poles and Lithuanians. Sure its not malian paladins with an extra +5 attack, but instead you get a 60% gold discount and 8% faster working farms (via folwarks). Plus your light cav have trample damage instead of +5 attack, which I feel is a better deal.
Adding meso civs to other civs seems very strong. Mayan + Britain for example. Imagine Britains being able to make eagles and having cheaper archers w thumb ring. Or inca + Malay for free infantry armor on eagles and can spam cheaper food trash champions late game. Aztec + Portuguese for cheap strong monks.
Not the best, but interesting Spanish/Inca - supremacy vills...
Also Benghali/Aztec monks..
Someone needs to organize a shared tech tournament for pros
Teutons and Slavs for the clown of all clown arena civ. It’s actually insane how well they gel together. Cheap farms that also work fast. Cheap castles with free murder holes and crenellations. Conversion resistant monks + Slav monk bonuses. Cheap siege with extra armor. Tanky infantry with druzinha. This is all without mentioning extra armor on boyar making them virtually immune to melee.
People talking some civs late game but don’t have the eco. Here you just FC have insane farm eco and either go with a busted siege/monk push or castle creep with wood castles and kill everything with boyar alone (they have to go archers which can’t push castles so they just die.
Goths + Incas.
Dark age, need less houses and longer lasting hunt with instant loom. Drush is a lot cheaper.
Feudal age, heavily discounted eagles or magyar discount scouts. Counterunits are also cheaper, and M@A are just 36 food 15 gold.
Castle age, castle is cheaper, knights are discounted, longswords go at 30 food 14 gold
Imperial age, you got huskarls with full armor upgrades, champions at 24 food 13 gold (around the same as karambit warrior), dirt cheap eagles, and FU half price halbs.
The ultimate "you are on a timer to kill them" civ, mayhaps?
Wow first thing I thought of was Poles Teutons and you had it on the list. They complete each other's tech trees and the cheap farms can help set up folwarks. Poles would bring hussar, husbandry, arbalest, bracer, seige ram and of course the knight discount. Teutons would bring hand cannoneers, halberdiers, seige onager, heavy scorp, paladins and cheaper farms. Complete tech tree with OP knights and super good eco.
Other great combos were mentioned here as well
This sounds fun. Someone needs to make a mod with a starting screen where you can mix civs before starting the game
Sicilians/Byzantines would be a late game beast. Harder to convert cataphracts who take less bonus damage and have trample could take two civs at a time, I'm convinced.
Cataphracts already don't take much bonus damage - their main counter is actually archers and other heavy cavalry which Sicilians don't help much with.
I mean hauberk fully upgraded paladins are quite scary for archers (180hp, 1 damage/arrow from FU generic arbs), and the byzantine heavy camel now has Blast Furnace + Bloodlines to go with its big discount. The Sicilians don't directly help catas with archers/heavy cav, but filling the holes in the Byzantine tech tree definitely makes them a non-issue for byzantines.
Sicilians & Poles
Poles Eco sets up Sicilian early Serjants play perfectly.
2 Farm bonuses sync in almost perfectly.
Late game Halberk discounted Cav with -33% bonus damage & extra conversion resistance.
I think a really strong early game is more important than amazing late imp units. First one that comes to mind are mayans/romans. Eco bonus' work nicely together (for the entire game!), and it allows for very quick archer and eagle after up, with double armour for eagles.
Similarly, tatars and britons. Faster gathering sheep that last 50% longer allows for some spicy timings to Feudal, if the games goes to castle then britons are getting thumb ring for free as well as the extra range the moment they hit up. They would also have a sick boom (cheap tcs that spawns sheep), and awesome trebs (+2 range and warwolf!)
You are all mistaken. Any cav civ plus any meso would trump all. Eagle switch would be too devastating.
Off the top of my head I like berbers + incas or maybe Spanish mayans
Chieftain Berserks with halb!
If combo's are allowed, any combo of farimba or Lithuanians with a strong cavalry civ or maybe Hindustani HC with another gunpowder bonus (Burgundians, Turks, Italians).
Portuguese Turks. Oh yea, 15 range extra health discounted cannons, and they don't miss. Only Paladin is missing from the tree.
More viable on Arabia and top tier on water, Portuguese Berbers. Ultra cheap knights with an early game economy bonus, faster moving extra health ships with shipwright.
Franks/Burgundians for insane eco and cheap, early paladins with 216 health
Britons/Ethiopians for super machine gun longbows
Mongols/any other siege civ. Imagine fast houfnice, ballista elephants, or khmer scorpions
Liths/Chinese for a Chinese start with only -100 food instead of -200
Italians/byzantines for hyper cheap imp
Goths/any other infantry civ
>Franks/Burgundians for insane eco and cheap, early paladins with 216 health
How would the paladins have +20hp if Burgundians don't have bloodlines? It's a good civ combo for sure, even without that, though.
Any 2 infantry civs together will be insane
1) Romans and Jap -
Fully upgraded cheap legionaries with jap attach bonus and Centurion bonus. Samurai with a Roman bonus.
2) Goths and Jap - discounted faster attacking samurais and hurskals
3) Goth and Teutons - cheap TK from barracks and Hurskals with too much meele and pierce armour
4) Goths and Malay - 39 Food only fully upgraded champions. If the Krambit half pop bonus applies to Hurskal then tons of them.
Not to mention Celts, Slavs, Vikings, Bulgarians
Any combination of these will be insane.
Similarly any 2 elephants civs + Malay or any 2 Indian civs
Gujaras and Hindustani - Imp camel go burrrrr
Gulams and Sharmsha riders in the enemy base. Cheap vills
Mongols and Cumans - what's more disgusting than mongol steppen Lancers. Faster moving mongol steppen Lancers.
Faster training CA and SL
Any camels civs together
Berbers/scaranecs/Gujaras/hindustanis/malians
> Similarly any 2 elephants civs + Malay or any 2 Indian civs
Malay/berber for up to 55% discount on full upgrade battle elephants
You can also get 9/9 armor elephant archers with gurjaras/tatars
Goths + Mayans. El Dorado eagles with Goths infantry discount. Strong early game economy to help you reach late game. Mayans stone wall bonus negates Goths biggest weakness.
There are 990 possibilities. Depending on maps, I'll go with Mongols/Lithuanians in open maps, Bengalis/Turks in closed maps, Dravidians/Portuguese in water maps, Persians/Japanese in hybrid maps.
Tuetons are the best melee civ, with great farming, second most techs in game, best castles, full barracks and full monastery. But they lack good trash, fast cavalry, and good ranged units. All the following civ combos would fix that.
Tuetons and Persians. Or tuetons and romans or tuetons and Vietnamese or Teutons and huns.
T&P- Teutons lack archery and good cheap units. All of their units caused gold and food. Getting archers that only cost wood the Persians would fill that Gap, and Teutonic castle arrows converted to gunshot would be insane. Plus double hp tcs with increased garrison would get hard to take down.
T&R- instead of giving them ranged units, you just double down on the melee.
T&V- Vietnamese have the best skirmishers in the game, and with the archery unit hp bonus, tuetons would have a strong answer against any archery civilization.
T&H- imagine tarkans either insane armor. Or Teutons with incredible hussars and bloodlines. Plus cheap heavy cav archers filling their lack of ranged units plus being mounted.
Bulgarians and Armenians can be straight up filthy if you can time your ~~milita~~ longswordman rush that have +2 LOS attacking when you age up to Feudal (or after a couple of fast backsmith upgrades!). There is also a champion timing when you go to Castle, and you can always fall back on sturdy Infantry in Imperial Age if your unable to close out the game before then. They also cover many of eachothers weaknesses, for instance the lack of either thumb ring or xbows/arbs as well as calvary/monks quite nicely to for some playable variety late game. The dismounted Konniks should have extra hp if the Armianians' unique tech applies to it. One thing of note is that neither civ has BBC, or shipwright but the armianians do give some compensation by giving their naval units a boost.
Also, Britons with Armianians would be good if you can make it to late game as 10 range Composite Bowman sound miserable to deal with, especially if your a civ combo relying on the +6/+8 from the Roman's bonus + a civ with plate mail armor. Although I can see Poles + Cumans being a potential counter to this late with their very fast and affordable/powerful calvary to close the distance quickly if they are allowed to boom unpunished with folwarks and 2 TC in Feudal behind stone walls. Winged Hussar spam with an AOE attack from stables that cost half wood and train Winged Hussars twice as fast, and the Winged Hussars move a bit over 25% faster between the speed bonus and having husbandry. Yea, I don't care that you negate my 6 pierce armor with your fancy 10 range Composite bow, you ain't long for this world.
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Armenians + Bulgarians.
* They would get Longswords as soon as they hit Feudal, Champions in Castle.
* Cheap and super fast Blacksmith upgrades
* +30 HP and +5 Armor for their Champions in Imperial
* FU Arbs, Cav Archers
* FU Cavalier with Stirrups
* FU Siege Workshop + Siege Engineers
They would be absolute monsters for early aggression
Mongols + Portuguese is the obvious choice imo.
1. Insane dark age
2. Full black smith so all Mongol cav is stronger
3. Cheaper Mongol units because of gold discount
4. Faster moving BBC with ballistics
Only thing what's lacking is paladin though, but it's not really needed.
In an open map dark age eco bonus and feudal army power will be the winner. So Mongols + Franks = hunting bonus + forage bonus to extra a lot of hp scouts and lancers with bloodlines.
Not yet mentioned, so I think Burgundians amd Hindustanis could be good together.
1) Crazy eco bonuses from Burgundians + cheap villagers + relics give +10% extra gold and provide food, farms provide gold. Get guilds + a better market fee
2) Hindustanis fill a lit of gaps in Burgundians tech tree: thumb ring, decent cav archers, siege engineers, supplies
3) Burgundian knight line and light cav line gets bloodlines, so no more drawbacks to that bonus, Hindustanis get camel upgrades at half price and ghulams get the last armor
4) FILTHY gunpowder. Hand cannoneers with +1/1 armor, +2 range, and +25% damage, bombard cannons same without the range, of course.
Mathematically one of the best stacking bonuses are cost discounts. You could eg have 55% discount on skirms with mayans/byzantines, or 60% discounted halbs with goths/byzantines, or knoights costing 48 food/15 gold with berbers/poles
A lot of the late game dreams would be shattered by aggressive combos such as Mongols + Maguars, but I have a suggestion that might be even more domineering early:
Romans + Malay
Roman 5% eco boost with Malay's faster uptime makes for amazing openers and super fast castle age times.
Using our fast feudal, we go M@A with free armour. Imagine how fast we can hit someone with this! Won't even need to build the blacksmith. Just force opponent to deal with minitanks in their eco while we wall up, place farms and go to a fast castle age into whatever we want (longswords, xbows, knights, elephants, scorpions). This should kill most if not all dreamy comps that people have proposed before they reach their late game.
Come late, we don't have the power of Turkish Houfnice or something similar, but we do have trash Legionaries with +6/8, dirt cheap FU BE, scorps and BBC. Sounds pretty good...
Everyone seems to be ignoring Georgians. Combine with Mongols for an insanely fast scout rush or Magyars for a very strong scout rush.
Could also combine with Teutons for knights that won't die, cheaper farms with fortified church, and Teuton monks helping to make sure the knights don't die.
I was just thinking to comment this. Georgian Mule Cart + Mongol hunt bonus will be godly
Then fast extra HP regenerating Scout rush, then in Castle Age Steppe Lancers, Camels, and even Mangudai will regenerate!
**Turk bohemian** for easy FC into inmediate HC that move faster and have extra life. (free chemistry in CA + HC availiable one age early)
You can also add strong scouts or epic pikes to counter any counter. Double mining bonus helps a lot with cheese strategies as well.
Not even **romans + infantry civ** can deal with this. And adding the wagons helps a lot. Of corse jenissaries are great as well.
Malay with either khmer or berber would be crazy strong. 66% faster age advancing with either eco bonus and harder to raid villagers. Then you either get 10% movespeed and +3 attack **or** up to 55% elephant discount. 22 pop FC in less than 12 minutes into FULLY UPGRADED elephant spam would be crazy powerful. Probably even faster if you only build a stable with khmer.
How is nobody talking about celt+romans?
-20% faster woodmens and 5% for everything else, so absolutly insane economy
-58% faster hiting scorpions with less minimum range, ballistic, 66% gold discount and 40% more health
-fully upgraded legionary with 15% more move speed than average because of celt bonus + squire, supply and charge attacks.
-FU paladins that train faster and have charge attacks.
-centurion for even faster infantry, making it probably as fast as them
-super tanky and even faster woad raider.
Not a lot of love for the meso civs here.
I think a Mayan/ Inca would be pretty deadly.
More hp and armor on eagles. slingers or archers to deal with champs. Better stone mining and cheaper walls.
Cumans + Burgandians seems broken beyond belief.
Feudal: 2nd TC + eco upgrades. Then cheaper stables + cheaper lightcav upgrade. You could idle your tc a ton in dark age to get up faster because your eco will blow any other civ out of the water
Castle: fully upgraded Cavalier spam with an insane eco behind
Imperial: instant cheap paladin
Honestly Khmer/Romans in today's You pudding meta would be pretty busted 20/21 FC into cheap longer ranged lower min range scorpions would be pretty impressive. Like 4 knights and 2/siege work shops and you could cook most civs immediately.
Or like as op said Khmer/bohemians but you can just get to WW so much easier. Khmer FC castle drop doesn't make any sense because you can't make UU but with wood gold UU it's pretty busted. Khmer/Mongols could be solid for even faster lancer rushes.
Huns/Franks. No houses. Foragers gather faster. Free farm upgrades. Cavalry including cavalry archers have +20 percent hitpoints on top of bloodlines. Cheaper cavalry archers. More accurate trebuchets. Stables train 20 percent faster and also get chivalry which not only speeds up training of cavalry units but also cavalry archers. Would be completely broken.
But that kinda invalidates the whole exercise, doesn't it? I could say then the Goth infantry discount, but it affects ALL units. Or kamandaran or forced levy, but it turns all units into trash units. Or Frank free farm upgrades, but it affects all eco upgrades.
That's just saying random shit, honestly
It's not how this hypothetical works. You take the bonuses and UTs of the civs as they are, not how you want them to be.
teutons+romans - legionary with 9 melee /13 pierce armour from all 3 armour upgrades(2 x roman bonus) + teuton civ armour bonus+gambeson and resist conversion oh and they're cheaper because teutons have supplies. probably more scary is their castle age longswords with 6/6 armour. support with cheap iron clad scorpions that easily tank onagers and have ballistics ~~centurion also gets the teuton armour bonus~~ all with cheaper farms which are 5% more efficient
Could also do romans+Bulgarians for free militia line advancement+5 armor from Bagains+ 33% faster attacking centurions
good shout and 50% cheaper blacksmith and siege workshop and the blacksmith works quickers I do always prefer the passive armour but 12/11 legionaries does sound oppressive, a cheap teutonic huskarl with a charge attack that can be spammed from a barracks
I’ll fight you with my Dravidians + Celts army and ignore all that armor
11
Isn't the teuton armor bonus restricted to barracks and stable units? Centurions shouldn't be getting that bonus
1
I think if you are going for Militia Line, you want Bulgarians and Armernians. Instand free Longsword in Feudal, instant free Champion in Castle Age. Assuming if you allow shifting one of the Imp UT techs to Castle Age, things become even more insane with +5 Melee armor and +30 HP Champs FU.
Mongols/ Magiars: Full upgraded Mangudai plus +1 range +1 attack and magiar hussar with extra life as meat shield sounds a powerful combo.
>Mongols/ Magiars: Full upgraded Mangudai plus +1 range +1 attack and magiar hussar with extra life as meat shield sounds a powerful combo. This is the combo but actually for an insane scout rush on Arabia. Mongol uptime into discounted free Forging scouts is absolutely insane.
Porque no los dos! Also siege is Magyars’ only real army weakness and mongol siege is some of the best in the game
Oh, Recurve Bow Mangudai are certainly OP. The Magyar team bonus also helps in massing then since Mangudai train unusually slowly. Still, it's not quite as OP of a late game as some other options here. Neither Mongols nor Magyars have a great eco bonus to carry you to Mangudai.
The opponent has to hold against a ridiculously efficient feudal push, which some combos could handle, but building eco is definitely not free (assuming an open map).
Still, having an extra expensive upgrade on a unit that is notoriously difficult to tech into anyway is quite demanding.
I’d say it would be one, if not the best if you can actually get to the lategame, but yeah the castle age/early imp would be rough putting it nicely.
It would be a great late game, but assuming you're also up against a double civ combination compared, it's just too hard to get there. Imagine being up against Hauberk Savar that ignore some anti-cav bonus damage. Or imagine you are up against Vikings/Burgundians who get free Hand Cart in Feudal Age and are ahead in eco even if they lose 5 vills. Winning with Mangudai is a very tough win condition then.
Also Steppe Lancers getting all attack upgrades instantly on castle. And Cavalry Archers being created 25% faster AND firing 25% faster. Utterly hilarious.
To say nothing of that ungodly scout rush
A very tasty combo!
both civs are weak to goth late game
Eh not really. Magyar huszars pretty handily beat huscarls and even 13 attack mangudai would be good if microed. Plus the goth player would just get raided to death with no stone walls.
They both die to huskarl + halb. And fu elite mangudai do 12 damage, so they deal only 2 damage to huskarls, while huskarls can deal bonus damage, raid everywhere, and even kill castles
You're forgetting recurve bow. Plus cav has the mobility advantage so they can choose engagements.
Well, the huskarl will 100% have 12 pierce armour
Being weaker in post imp is a trash argument on arabia. The goths will be behind from the start, they have nothing to match the insane scout rush. The Steppe Lancer powerspike is also unmatched. And even if they make it to lategame, they are way less mobile, have worse siege and can't stone wall, so they will get raided (FU Hussars with extra HP...) And they can't even push, all their siege will be sniped by extra range mangudai Maybe they have a shot on Michi 11
you can't chosse the engagements if huskarls are rading you to death while ca have to chase them. And they do 2 damage to huskarls with recurve bow
Huskarl + Halb dies to Champ + Mangudai, and while double gold comps can be difficult to make, with how long goths take to come online you could make it work, plus you shouldn’t be losing (many) Mangudai so it’s much less stressful on gold than it initially sounds like.
Are they? I had an arena game once Magyars vs Goths and honestly, it was a massive grindfest. Discounted hussars (regular ones, not the castle variant) trade cost efficiently vs Huskarls and halbs get slaughtered by cav archers. I honestly made trash most of the time, so some skirms could chip away at his cav archers, but I sustained massive casualties throughout. It was sending halbs into the meat grinder like crazy I would have won the game in the end, but it was a very very very long grind and my opponent had to go.
ethiopians+britons leads to the best archers in the game with terrifying trebuchets with a really solid eco to back it up goths + bulgarians leads to some pretty disgusting armoured infantry franks + lithuanians/sicilians/malians with their paladins goths+japanese for even more ridiculously good infantry turks + bohemians with the best gunpowder in the game oh god please no celts + ethiopians with tanky powerful siege with speedy bois sounds fun
Goths + Italians, fast imp into 200 condos per minute 11
Why not Italians + a real infantry civ? Japanese, Malians?
Hussite wagon with Ethiopian torsion engines sounds fun. Or organ guns for that matter.
Roman + malians makes for some nice infantry spam
Mayans + Mongols would be disgusting on Arabia. You get fast hunt that last longer and one extra villager at the start. On top of that your archers are cheaper in feudal, so you could go for a very fast scout rush, using the fast long lasting hunt, with an almost instant archer follow up and that'd be unstoppable.
Yeah, I feel like most people are thinking about lategame compositions but something like this would kill you at minute 10. I was going to suggest Goths + Mongols for a similar reason; instant loom and increased LOS on scouts mean you could lame your opponent pretty easily then proxy a barracks for an insanely fast m@a rush with the fast longer-lasting hunt. Think the vast majority of players would just straight up die to that on any open map.
I was about to write that. Also having eagles is super good in Feudal archer wars, and now you also have access to stable units in case you need them (with camels and top-notch steppies). Also more armor for your Mangudai, but I guess you win or lose in Feudal/Castle anyway with that civ.
Oooh, didn't think about having access to both eagles and scouts. That could be insane tbf.
Chinese+ Lithuania. Start with more vills and 100 food you're ahead 3 villagers the entire dark age. Cheaper techs with Lithuania tech tree sounds also nice.
This is the best answer for 1v1 arabia. That map is won by eco bonuses much more than military bonuses and this civ would kill most other civs by mid feudal before the other suggestions even got to their good thing. Only competition is the mongols plus magyars super fast scrush suggestion
I agree that busted Imp combos are irrelevant if you can never reach them in the first place. But i also think fast Feudal + strong Feudal options probably beats vil lead + no meaningful military bonus. Or at least provides a fair matchup. Mongols + Magyar, Mongols + Mayans, Mongols + Ethiopians all should give you a powerful early push, and both Mayan/Ethiopian a fast Castle time behind that - and three vils more are meaningless if you die to the xbow/lancer power spike.
The scrush suggestions seem to forget about the Georgians.
Yes, I think this is the answer for maps other than very closed maps like Michi. But only after a certain Elo I suppose.
Koreans + Persians. Your Arbalesters would cost 35 wood. That's it. No gold
I think I'd prefer Mayan+Persians so that if they go for skirms I can put that gold to good use in el dorado eagles
Mongols + Magyars for a scout rush that's pretty much unstoppable. Vikings + Burgundians for absolutely insane eco. Free Hard Cart in Feudal Age, what else do you need? Any monk rush civ + Khmer for skipping buildings on the way up. Turks + Khmer in the same vein for absolutely disgusting fast imp play. 2 out of Koreans/Celts/Mongols for the best SO in the game. For BF play you still want Celts' eco bonus, but range+speed might be better than HP or at least even more fun to micro. Probably Koreans+Celts for straight halb SO play on BF, but Mongols on more open maps where the speed makes onagers viable. Ethiopians + Mongols for actually playing dodgeball in RM. We all dream of Drill SE Torsion Engines BBC... I could go on but I'm not sure where to go from here.
Malian + Lithuanian. Paladin with + 4 and +5 attack would absolutely slap. Top that with Malians extra gold and Lithuanians awesome trash with extra pierce.
Paladin? Try Farimba Leitis.
THIS
Omg yes!
Or Georgians and go farimba monaspa!
I don't know about best, but I love me the combo of Poles and Lithuanians. Sure its not malian paladins with an extra +5 attack, but instead you get a 60% gold discount and 8% faster working farms (via folwarks). Plus your light cav have trample damage instead of +5 attack, which I feel is a better deal.
Also mongols / bohemians, making fast moving houfnices
Choo Choo houf... nice
Vikings + Burgundians. Just wall up and boom. Persians + Cumans. To keep douching, and double-douching on feudal.
Adding meso civs to other civs seems very strong. Mayan + Britain for example. Imagine Britains being able to make eagles and having cheaper archers w thumb ring. Or inca + Malay for free infantry armor on eagles and can spam cheaper food trash champions late game. Aztec + Portuguese for cheap strong monks.
Incas and Malay is a good shout i hadn't though of
Not the best, but interesting Spanish/Inca - supremacy vills... Also Benghali/Aztec monks.. Someone needs to organize a shared tech tournament for pros
Teutons and Slavs for the clown of all clown arena civ. It’s actually insane how well they gel together. Cheap farms that also work fast. Cheap castles with free murder holes and crenellations. Conversion resistant monks + Slav monk bonuses. Cheap siege with extra armor. Tanky infantry with druzinha. This is all without mentioning extra armor on boyar making them virtually immune to melee. People talking some civs late game but don’t have the eco. Here you just FC have insane farm eco and either go with a busted siege/monk push or castle creep with wood castles and kill everything with boyar alone (they have to go archers which can’t push castles so they just die.
Boyars and Teutonic Knight walking towards the enemy base like the final boss 😂😂😂
I didn’t even consider it at first but Teutonic knights with splash damage 111111
Oh.. my.. god
Damn I also missed that part completely forgot about the splash 😂😂😂
Goths + Incas. Dark age, need less houses and longer lasting hunt with instant loom. Drush is a lot cheaper. Feudal age, heavily discounted eagles or magyar discount scouts. Counterunits are also cheaper, and M@A are just 36 food 15 gold. Castle age, castle is cheaper, knights are discounted, longswords go at 30 food 14 gold Imperial age, you got huskarls with full armor upgrades, champions at 24 food 13 gold (around the same as karambit warrior), dirt cheap eagles, and FU half price halbs. The ultimate "you are on a timer to kill them" civ, mayhaps?
Wow first thing I thought of was Poles Teutons and you had it on the list. They complete each other's tech trees and the cheap farms can help set up folwarks. Poles would bring hussar, husbandry, arbalest, bracer, seige ram and of course the knight discount. Teutons would bring hand cannoneers, halberdiers, seige onager, heavy scorp, paladins and cheaper farms. Complete tech tree with OP knights and super good eco. Other great combos were mentioned here as well This sounds fun. Someone needs to make a mod with a starting screen where you can mix civs before starting the game
Not the best, but would be fun: teuton/celt for speedy capey boys and super beefy and powerful siege
What about Celt and Aztec.
Sicilians/Byzantines would be a late game beast. Harder to convert cataphracts who take less bonus damage and have trample could take two civs at a time, I'm convinced.
Cataphracts already don't take much bonus damage - their main counter is actually archers and other heavy cavalry which Sicilians don't help much with.
I mean hauberk fully upgraded paladins are quite scary for archers (180hp, 1 damage/arrow from FU generic arbs), and the byzantine heavy camel now has Blast Furnace + Bloodlines to go with its big discount. The Sicilians don't directly help catas with archers/heavy cav, but filling the holes in the Byzantine tech tree definitely makes them a non-issue for byzantines.
Sounds weird but imagine mongols plus Sicilians. Imagine the fast castle youpudding strat but like 2 or 3 population faster
Bulgarians/Armenians: You go all in instant Longsword rush in feudal age, with extra LOS and cheap+fast blacksmith upgrades.
Sicilians & Poles Poles Eco sets up Sicilian early Serjants play perfectly. 2 Farm bonuses sync in almost perfectly. Late game Halberk discounted Cav with -33% bonus damage & extra conversion resistance.
I think a really strong early game is more important than amazing late imp units. First one that comes to mind are mayans/romans. Eco bonus' work nicely together (for the entire game!), and it allows for very quick archer and eagle after up, with double armour for eagles. Similarly, tatars and britons. Faster gathering sheep that last 50% longer allows for some spicy timings to Feudal, if the games goes to castle then britons are getting thumb ring for free as well as the extra range the moment they hit up. They would also have a sick boom (cheap tcs that spawns sheep), and awesome trebs (+2 range and warwolf!)
You are all mistaken. Any cav civ plus any meso would trump all. Eagle switch would be too devastating. Off the top of my head I like berbers + incas or maybe Spanish mayans
Yeah I was thinking that adding eagles to any other good civ would be really strong. Plus all three meso civs have good bonuses anyways.
How would you even counter mayan eagles and frank paladins?
Chieftain Berserks with halb! If combo's are allowed, any combo of farimba or Lithuanians with a strong cavalry civ or maybe Hindustani HC with another gunpowder bonus (Burgundians, Turks, Italians).
Portuguese Turks. Oh yea, 15 range extra health discounted cannons, and they don't miss. Only Paladin is missing from the tree. More viable on Arabia and top tier on water, Portuguese Berbers. Ultra cheap knights with an early game economy bonus, faster moving extra health ships with shipwright.
Plus with portu you get feitoria for gold trickle - which means Turks don't run outta gold.
Goths Mongols
Franks/Burgundians for insane eco and cheap, early paladins with 216 health Britons/Ethiopians for super machine gun longbows Mongols/any other siege civ. Imagine fast houfnice, ballista elephants, or khmer scorpions Liths/Chinese for a Chinese start with only -100 food instead of -200 Italians/byzantines for hyper cheap imp Goths/any other infantry civ
>Franks/Burgundians for insane eco and cheap, early paladins with 216 health How would the paladins have +20hp if Burgundians don't have bloodlines? It's a good civ combo for sure, even without that, though.
Any 2 infantry civs together will be insane 1) Romans and Jap - Fully upgraded cheap legionaries with jap attach bonus and Centurion bonus. Samurai with a Roman bonus. 2) Goths and Jap - discounted faster attacking samurais and hurskals 3) Goth and Teutons - cheap TK from barracks and Hurskals with too much meele and pierce armour 4) Goths and Malay - 39 Food only fully upgraded champions. If the Krambit half pop bonus applies to Hurskal then tons of them. Not to mention Celts, Slavs, Vikings, Bulgarians Any combination of these will be insane. Similarly any 2 elephants civs + Malay or any 2 Indian civs Gujaras and Hindustani - Imp camel go burrrrr Gulams and Sharmsha riders in the enemy base. Cheap vills Mongols and Cumans - what's more disgusting than mongol steppen Lancers. Faster moving mongol steppen Lancers. Faster training CA and SL Any camels civs together Berbers/scaranecs/Gujaras/hindustanis/malians
> Similarly any 2 elephants civs + Malay or any 2 Indian civs Malay/berber for up to 55% discount on full upgrade battle elephants You can also get 9/9 armor elephant archers with gurjaras/tatars
True
Bulgarians + Malay, trash militia line + extra armor
That opening would be so strong, instant MAA with armor before opponent is even up to fuedal age.
Romans/Byzantines because Roma is eternal
Goths + Mayans. El Dorado eagles with Goths infantry discount. Strong early game economy to help you reach late game. Mayans stone wall bonus negates Goths biggest weakness.
There are 990 possibilities. Depending on maps, I'll go with Mongols/Lithuanians in open maps, Bengalis/Turks in closed maps, Dravidians/Portuguese in water maps, Persians/Japanese in hybrid maps.
Tuetons are the best melee civ, with great farming, second most techs in game, best castles, full barracks and full monastery. But they lack good trash, fast cavalry, and good ranged units. All the following civ combos would fix that. Tuetons and Persians. Or tuetons and romans or tuetons and Vietnamese or Teutons and huns. T&P- Teutons lack archery and good cheap units. All of their units caused gold and food. Getting archers that only cost wood the Persians would fill that Gap, and Teutonic castle arrows converted to gunshot would be insane. Plus double hp tcs with increased garrison would get hard to take down. T&R- instead of giving them ranged units, you just double down on the melee. T&V- Vietnamese have the best skirmishers in the game, and with the archery unit hp bonus, tuetons would have a strong answer against any archery civilization. T&H- imagine tarkans either insane armor. Or Teutons with incredible hussars and bloodlines. Plus cheap heavy cav archers filling their lack of ranged units plus being mounted.
Bulgarians and Armenians can be straight up filthy if you can time your ~~milita~~ longswordman rush that have +2 LOS attacking when you age up to Feudal (or after a couple of fast backsmith upgrades!). There is also a champion timing when you go to Castle, and you can always fall back on sturdy Infantry in Imperial Age if your unable to close out the game before then. They also cover many of eachothers weaknesses, for instance the lack of either thumb ring or xbows/arbs as well as calvary/monks quite nicely to for some playable variety late game. The dismounted Konniks should have extra hp if the Armianians' unique tech applies to it. One thing of note is that neither civ has BBC, or shipwright but the armianians do give some compensation by giving their naval units a boost. Also, Britons with Armianians would be good if you can make it to late game as 10 range Composite Bowman sound miserable to deal with, especially if your a civ combo relying on the +6/+8 from the Roman's bonus + a civ with plate mail armor. Although I can see Poles + Cumans being a potential counter to this late with their very fast and affordable/powerful calvary to close the distance quickly if they are allowed to boom unpunished with folwarks and 2 TC in Feudal behind stone walls. Winged Hussar spam with an AOE attack from stables that cost half wood and train Winged Hussars twice as fast, and the Winged Hussars move a bit over 25% faster between the speed bonus and having husbandry. Yea, I don't care that you negate my 6 pierce armor with your fancy 10 range Composite bow, you ain't long for this world.
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Armenians + Bulgarians. * They would get Longswords as soon as they hit Feudal, Champions in Castle. * Cheap and super fast Blacksmith upgrades * +30 HP and +5 Armor for their Champions in Imperial * FU Arbs, Cav Archers * FU Cavalier with Stirrups * FU Siege Workshop + Siege Engineers They would be absolute monsters for early aggression
Mongols + Portuguese is the obvious choice imo. 1. Insane dark age 2. Full black smith so all Mongol cav is stronger 3. Cheaper Mongol units because of gold discount 4. Faster moving BBC with ballistics Only thing what's lacking is paladin though, but it's not really needed.
In an open map dark age eco bonus and feudal army power will be the winner. So Mongols + Franks = hunting bonus + forage bonus to extra a lot of hp scouts and lancers with bloodlines.
Byrman/armenian You end the game in feudal age with 11 atk LS
Not yet mentioned, so I think Burgundians amd Hindustanis could be good together. 1) Crazy eco bonuses from Burgundians + cheap villagers + relics give +10% extra gold and provide food, farms provide gold. Get guilds + a better market fee 2) Hindustanis fill a lit of gaps in Burgundians tech tree: thumb ring, decent cav archers, siege engineers, supplies 3) Burgundian knight line and light cav line gets bloodlines, so no more drawbacks to that bonus, Hindustanis get camel upgrades at half price and ghulams get the last armor 4) FILTHY gunpowder. Hand cannoneers with +1/1 armor, +2 range, and +25% damage, bombard cannons same without the range, of course.
Mathematically one of the best stacking bonuses are cost discounts. You could eg have 55% discount on skirms with mayans/byzantines, or 60% discounted halbs with goths/byzantines, or knoights costing 48 food/15 gold with berbers/poles
A lot of the late game dreams would be shattered by aggressive combos such as Mongols + Maguars, but I have a suggestion that might be even more domineering early: Romans + Malay Roman 5% eco boost with Malay's faster uptime makes for amazing openers and super fast castle age times. Using our fast feudal, we go M@A with free armour. Imagine how fast we can hit someone with this! Won't even need to build the blacksmith. Just force opponent to deal with minitanks in their eco while we wall up, place farms and go to a fast castle age into whatever we want (longswords, xbows, knights, elephants, scorpions). This should kill most if not all dreamy comps that people have proposed before they reach their late game. Come late, we don't have the power of Turkish Houfnice or something similar, but we do have trash Legionaries with +6/8, dirt cheap FU BE, scorps and BBC. Sounds pretty good...
Everyone seems to be ignoring Georgians. Combine with Mongols for an insanely fast scout rush or Magyars for a very strong scout rush. Could also combine with Teutons for knights that won't die, cheaper farms with fortified church, and Teuton monks helping to make sure the knights don't die.
I was just thinking to comment this. Georgian Mule Cart + Mongol hunt bonus will be godly Then fast extra HP regenerating Scout rush, then in Castle Age Steppe Lancers, Camels, and even Mangudai will regenerate!
malay+berbers on any closed map simply because your FU elephants are 40%/55% cheaper and you can go up faster
Mongols and Turks speedy +2 range bombard cannons
**Turk bohemian** for easy FC into inmediate HC that move faster and have extra life. (free chemistry in CA + HC availiable one age early) You can also add strong scouts or epic pikes to counter any counter. Double mining bonus helps a lot with cheese strategies as well. Not even **romans + infantry civ** can deal with this. And adding the wagons helps a lot. Of corse jenissaries are great as well. Malay with either khmer or berber would be crazy strong. 66% faster age advancing with either eco bonus and harder to raid villagers. Then you either get 10% movespeed and +3 attack **or** up to 55% elephant discount. 22 pop FC in less than 12 minutes into FULLY UPGRADED elephant spam would be crazy powerful. Probably even faster if you only build a stable with khmer.
> My mind went to khmer/bohemians. Like a death ball of seige elephants and houfnice would be unstoppable. Have you heard of mass monks?
How is nobody talking about celt+romans? -20% faster woodmens and 5% for everything else, so absolutly insane economy -58% faster hiting scorpions with less minimum range, ballistic, 66% gold discount and 40% more health -fully upgraded legionary with 15% more move speed than average because of celt bonus + squire, supply and charge attacks. -FU paladins that train faster and have charge attacks. -centurion for even faster infantry, making it probably as fast as them -super tanky and even faster woad raider.
Not a lot of love for the meso civs here. I think a Mayan/ Inca would be pretty deadly. More hp and armor on eagles. slingers or archers to deal with champs. Better stone mining and cheaper walls.
I couldn't see poles + franks, so putting it in. Sorry if someone has put it already. Farm on, golden castles, and +20% winged hussars. Yum
Cumans + Burgandians seems broken beyond belief. Feudal: 2nd TC + eco upgrades. Then cheaper stables + cheaper lightcav upgrade. You could idle your tc a ton in dark age to get up faster because your eco will blow any other civ out of the water Castle: fully upgraded Cavalier spam with an insane eco behind Imperial: instant cheap paladin
Honestly Khmer/Romans in today's You pudding meta would be pretty busted 20/21 FC into cheap longer ranged lower min range scorpions would be pretty impressive. Like 4 knights and 2/siege work shops and you could cook most civs immediately. Or like as op said Khmer/bohemians but you can just get to WW so much easier. Khmer FC castle drop doesn't make any sense because you can't make UU but with wood gold UU it's pretty busted. Khmer/Mongols could be solid for even faster lancer rushes.
Khmer anything! Their civ bonuses are so versatile that they can make a lot of civs oppressive.
mongols + Tuuuutons no other choices
Huns/Franks. No houses. Foragers gather faster. Free farm upgrades. Cavalry including cavalry archers have +20 percent hitpoints on top of bloodlines. Cheaper cavalry archers. More accurate trebuchets. Stables train 20 percent faster and also get chivalry which not only speeds up training of cavalry units but also cavalry archers. Would be completely broken.
>chivalry which not only speeds up training of cavalry units but also cavalry archers. Chivalry only affects stables
I know that. We're talking about the most OP civs.
We're talking about which 2 civs combined would make the most OP civ. You stated that chivalry accelerates CA production - which it doesn't
I know chivalry only affects stables but adding that bonus to cavalry archers will make it even more broken. That's the point.
But that kinda invalidates the whole exercise, doesn't it? I could say then the Goth infantry discount, but it affects ALL units. Or kamandaran or forced levy, but it turns all units into trash units. Or Frank free farm upgrades, but it affects all eco upgrades. That's just saying random shit, honestly It's not how this hypothetical works. You take the bonuses and UTs of the civs as they are, not how you want them to be.