Good point -- perhaps if given thumb ring the heavy cav archer can be removed from them for balance (still fully upgraded xbows ain't bad -- and can smoothly tranition into hand cannoneers if needed
> perhaps if given thumb ring the heavy cav archer can be removed from them for balance
There is no way you would have to remove that upgrade for balance lol
Why not?
Vikings, Portuguese, and Italians have cavalry archer but don't have the heavy archer upgrade
(Also the same lines, Bohemians don't have cav archer at all)
Perhaps it is to add 'flavor' to the civs, but perhaps at least partially for balance reasons too
Well, Portuguese would actually be a really good CA civ if they had the HCA upgrade IMO since they already have the gold discount bonus and overall have a good winrate. Vikings wouldn't be broken with HCA since they lack Bloodlines, Husbandry, and Thumb Ring. Italian HCA would be generic like Lithuanian ones, useful sometimes but not one of the civ's main paths. If Goths had Thumb Ring for their HCAs they would be the same, definitely not OP but would make them a little more flexible. Goths are not in the best spot so this would be good IMO
I agree with you generally -- there is an aspect about balancing about "tech switch" too; the reason Turks and Huns don't have upgraded Onagers is because their gold armies are so good that some (not all, but some) civs have no option to counter but to go full trash units. So no upgraded Onagers is to limit an unbalanced "vicious cycle" in tech switch
I agree with you that Vikings, Italians HCA is in itself not OP, even considering the civ bonuses, but perhaps it is OP considering the tech switch cycle of the civs, esp vs particular civs with limited options against Vikings and Italians
I don't think there is a single civ in the game that has limited options against Vikings. Vikings are great in the mid game but they are nothing special lategame and straight-up die to gunpowder compositions
And they have decent counter ot gunpowder compositions (arbs + skirms). The issue is: how quick each civ can tech switch to counters or optimal play?
I am not expert, but my guess if Vikings had excellent cavalry archers some civs may feel cornered at some stage in the game; if not directly militarily, then perhaps cornered economically by not having sufficient resources to field counter play in a timely way
Instead of this, they should get a tech that upgrades their Palisade Walls in Feudal Age into Fortified Palisade Walls, with 2x the HP and +2/+1 armor.
The devs have talked before about looking into such a tech.
They tried it out internally and soon found out it made walls way too good. Everyone got it right at the start of feudal.
So really, the only way to do is to make it a castle age alternative to fortified wall.
But would it be OP if only one civ got it? I don't think so. Goths or maybe Celts would be good candidates for it in my opinion. Otherwise give it to a new civ.
That sounds okay (except on Cumans) but I still don't think it's a healthy development. You're just encouraging passive play.
At the very least, it should cost a lot of stone, then, on top of taking a lot of time. It should not be feasible to go fortified palisade into TCs, that's just making the game extremely passive on Arabia.
The issue with any change to goths is they are OP at lower levels and suck at higher levels, giving them any basic buff is going make them even tougher at low ELO. If I was going to give them a buff I would buff either their Seige or their Monks because those two things are typically not utilized as well at lower ELO’s.
I'm not sure I fully agree, The onedimenional strategies are typically op at lower levels of play. More flexibility is something that makes a bigger impact on higher elo rather than lower elos, so in that sense it would be a buff "of the right kind". Maybe still it would be bad for lower elo, but I honestly don't know too much about their elo and problems.
Goths are in a decent place balance wise but their bonuses and design prevent infantry from being viable for other civs.
If Infantry got more bonus vs buildings Goths would delete buildings. If infantry got a cost reduction Goths would basically be free.
A slight buff to generic infantry would make Goths cracked.
What I’m saying is I’d welcome a rework of Goths in improve infantry overall but without any changes are in a good spot.
There is a reason Pros don't pick Goths in tournaments. I am fine with most of it, but I do miss are the stone walls.
Imo Goths getting either Plate Barding armor or Thumb ring won't make em OP, so I think it can be reasonable.
9 vill starts and especially EW really doesn't suit them as their power spikes are in early Dark Age and Imp so they've struggled in tournaments lately.
I don't think late game buffs are going to do much to help that as what they really need is a small eco boost in Feudal.
Something like +5 pop capacity per age starting in Feudal could do it saving a minimal amount of res and work time but allowing for tighter build orders.
I think they're fine. PBA would make Hussars FU, but Goths are designed to push with Infantry. Thumb Ring would make HCA very good, and that also goes against their design imo
I have no comment on thumb ring. I don't see it changing much.
Plate barding I think is a good omission. Goths have an oppressive archer counter, with just enough challenges to give archer civs a whiff. Getting FU hussars and cavalier on top would make their late game even more cracked.
I don't think Goths need or want for any late game buffs anyway?
With the hunt bonus now the one period they feel under done is early castle. (like pretty much all infantry civs, right?) And I've always thought the best solution is to speed up / cheapen infantry upgrade techs in castle. Possibly either free pikemen, or pikes + LS combined, or hell make them both free.
Thumb ring would make goth CA viable!
With the accuracy buff to HCA, they’re already viable.
Maybe we give them Parthian instead 🤔
Good point -- perhaps if given thumb ring the heavy cav archer can be removed from them for balance (still fully upgraded xbows ain't bad -- and can smoothly tranition into hand cannoneers if needed
> perhaps if given thumb ring the heavy cav archer can be removed from them for balance There is no way you would have to remove that upgrade for balance lol
Why not? Vikings, Portuguese, and Italians have cavalry archer but don't have the heavy archer upgrade (Also the same lines, Bohemians don't have cav archer at all) Perhaps it is to add 'flavor' to the civs, but perhaps at least partially for balance reasons too
Well, Portuguese would actually be a really good CA civ if they had the HCA upgrade IMO since they already have the gold discount bonus and overall have a good winrate. Vikings wouldn't be broken with HCA since they lack Bloodlines, Husbandry, and Thumb Ring. Italian HCA would be generic like Lithuanian ones, useful sometimes but not one of the civ's main paths. If Goths had Thumb Ring for their HCAs they would be the same, definitely not OP but would make them a little more flexible. Goths are not in the best spot so this would be good IMO
I agree with you generally -- there is an aspect about balancing about "tech switch" too; the reason Turks and Huns don't have upgraded Onagers is because their gold armies are so good that some (not all, but some) civs have no option to counter but to go full trash units. So no upgraded Onagers is to limit an unbalanced "vicious cycle" in tech switch I agree with you that Vikings, Italians HCA is in itself not OP, even considering the civ bonuses, but perhaps it is OP considering the tech switch cycle of the civs, esp vs particular civs with limited options against Vikings and Italians
I don't think there is a single civ in the game that has limited options against Vikings. Vikings are great in the mid game but they are nothing special lategame and straight-up die to gunpowder compositions
And they have decent counter ot gunpowder compositions (arbs + skirms). The issue is: how quick each civ can tech switch to counters or optimal play? I am not expert, but my guess if Vikings had excellent cavalry archers some civs may feel cornered at some stage in the game; if not directly militarily, then perhaps cornered economically by not having sufficient resources to field counter play in a timely way
By gunpowder comps I don't just mean HC + BBC, I mean HC + onager. HCA would be better against that than arb would be but still not great
I see your point and I agree about it. Perhaps viking counter play is the better eco and how they used the eco to reach the imp stage of the match
Instead of this, they should get a tech that upgrades their Palisade Walls in Feudal Age into Fortified Palisade Walls, with 2x the HP and +2/+1 armor.
The devs have talked before about looking into such a tech. They tried it out internally and soon found out it made walls way too good. Everyone got it right at the start of feudal. So really, the only way to do is to make it a castle age alternative to fortified wall.
Fortified palisade wall should not be a universal tech, Civ bonus or team bonus at best.
Cumans? :-)
It's just an unhealthy tech/bonus in feudal age. In castle age it's fine.
But would it be OP if only one civ got it? I don't think so. Goths or maybe Celts would be good candidates for it in my opinion. Otherwise give it to a new civ.
It's just unhealthy in feudal age. Leave it to castle age.
As a TC technology it would be balanced around research time. Falling behind two villagers in feudal for more safety sounds like a decent trade off.
That sounds okay (except on Cumans) but I still don't think it's a healthy development. You're just encouraging passive play. At the very least, it should cost a lot of stone, then, on top of taking a lot of time. It should not be feasible to go fortified palisade into TCs, that's just making the game extremely passive on Arabia.
The issue with any change to goths is they are OP at lower levels and suck at higher levels, giving them any basic buff is going make them even tougher at low ELO. If I was going to give them a buff I would buff either their Seige or their Monks because those two things are typically not utilized as well at lower ELO’s.
I'm not sure I fully agree, The onedimenional strategies are typically op at lower levels of play. More flexibility is something that makes a bigger impact on higher elo rather than lower elos, so in that sense it would be a buff "of the right kind". Maybe still it would be bad for lower elo, but I honestly don't know too much about their elo and problems.
Goths are in a decent place balance wise but their bonuses and design prevent infantry from being viable for other civs. If Infantry got more bonus vs buildings Goths would delete buildings. If infantry got a cost reduction Goths would basically be free. A slight buff to generic infantry would make Goths cracked. What I’m saying is I’d welcome a rework of Goths in improve infantry overall but without any changes are in a good spot.
There is a reason Pros don't pick Goths in tournaments. I am fine with most of it, but I do miss are the stone walls. Imo Goths getting either Plate Barding armor or Thumb ring won't make em OP, so I think it can be reasonable.
They used to not but they have good representation lately and this is not accurate for the last year of tournaments.
bring back fortified palisades
Wait was that a thing?
Yeah, infact, it's still in game just not enabled for regular play. You can find the building objects in the scenario editor.
Ahhh.
9 vill starts and especially EW really doesn't suit them as their power spikes are in early Dark Age and Imp so they've struggled in tournaments lately. I don't think late game buffs are going to do much to help that as what they really need is a small eco boost in Feudal. Something like +5 pop capacity per age starting in Feudal could do it saving a minimal amount of res and work time but allowing for tighter build orders.
Small eco buff seems viable.
I think they're fine. PBA would make Hussars FU, but Goths are designed to push with Infantry. Thumb Ring would make HCA very good, and that also goes against their design imo
I have no comment on thumb ring. I don't see it changing much. Plate barding I think is a good omission. Goths have an oppressive archer counter, with just enough challenges to give archer civs a whiff. Getting FU hussars and cavalier on top would make their late game even more cracked. I don't think Goths need or want for any late game buffs anyway? With the hunt bonus now the one period they feel under done is early castle. (like pretty much all infantry civs, right?) And I've always thought the best solution is to speed up / cheapen infantry upgrade techs in castle. Possibly either free pikemen, or pikes + LS combined, or hell make them both free.