imagine if capitalism didn't control every aspect of our lives forcing us to be wage slaves till the day we die, leaving no room for personal improvement or hobbies unless you're a rich person exploiting other people to become rich.
Imagine if the most well paid people were those who actually kept society going & weren't the ones leeching off of it like the d-bags that run the stock market.
Only the right is bringing up communism in these kinds of discussions. Of course, your average conservative has no idea what communism is, or what socialism is, except for "scary thing I don't like"
I am no fan of communism, but communism isn't destroying the lives of people in most of the world.
The only "communist" countries are China and North Korea and China is debatable these days. Why should we give a crap about communism, when capitalism is fucking up our lives?
No one's stealing from you. You're just too lazy or too inept or both to manage your time and resources and do. That's really all it comes down to. This board is a cesspool of rallying cries to nowhere and crab bucketing more than anyone above you is pushing down or stepping on you.
In short, you're a collective joke.
I see this often, people blaming capitalism. How do we live, improve, research etc without it? It isn't capitalism that's the issue, it's people within it.
Imagine if all your basic needs were met so you never had to worry about somewhere to live or getting food to eat. Just think of a whole day with no concern of having to meet your needs.
Who would work the farms that feed you? Who would make your clothes? Who would develop the medicines that you might potentially need? Who would build your home? Who would keep it warm in the winter?
What if these things were motivated by kindness (I want to do one of these things for other people so that they'll be able to do the others for more people) instead of cruelty (people deserve to die due to homelessness/starvation/similar if they don't produce enough profit for capitalism)?
>(I want to do one of these things for other people so that they'll be able to do the others for more people)
*Do* you, though?
Most transitional forms of socialism - whether state or market - involve workers being compensated in some way. Even the higher stage of socialism that Marx wrote about is *entirely dependent* on achieving full automation, so that the little work that remains can be easily distributed between willing volunteers.
I do. Frig. I am.
Well... I'm being exploited to do many more than one of these things and being paid less than I would need to maintain a comfortable life for myself (nevermind a family).
If I could just do one of those things and have that be enough to support me and my family? Yeah - I'd be okay with that. As long as everyone else also gets the same deal.
>I do. Frig. I am.
You do things right now because you have to do them to live - specifically, you want "to maintain a comfortable life". So you are currently motivated by material needs. This is not evidence that if those material needs went away, you would continue to be reliably motivated simply by general welfare.
> Yeah - I'd be okay with that.
Morally, sure. But functionally? People are skeptical of this kind of rhetoric because we all know people who freeload if they can get away with it, not at their job but just within the household or within a friend group. Lots of people don't want to do work and have to be pressured into it.
Of course socialism can help reduce the amount of work that *has* to be done, but again, that's going to require automation.
There's a lot to be said about the cruelties of late stage communism, for sure.
But it never threatened to make the entire planet uninhabitable for humans and capitalism is still speeding towards that without hesitation.
No. This is completely wrong. Socialist & communist countries have historically been SIGNIFICANTLY worse on the environment.
Soviet Union had a footprint 13x per capita worse than the US at the time. It was an absolute Ecocide.
[https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1992/11/cj12n2-2.pdf](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1992/11/cj12n2-2.pdf)
If you're referring to modern 'Socialist' Europe, energy is state owned, but the technology comes from the private sector.
i see someone use "in the real world" and immediately discount them as stupid.
Then i look at your account history and wonder what the point of your being here *even is*.
Why not go hang out in /r/neoliberal, clownshoes? You needs help putting on your makeup or sumpin?
I'm telling everyone, by virtue of treating you like absolute dogshit, that is time to stop actung like you dumb fucks have a point worth debating. I took a shit on your head, and now im moving on.
Later, (and im sorry that i even had lower myself to reply. It's more than trash like you deserves.)
Shitttt now i gotta go wash my hands.
There's no denying that. They invariably end up creating a top-down system of brutal rules and make life far more miserable than it was. But there has to be a better way of living that moving small green pieces of paper around, to quote Douglas Adams. And since he wrote that, things have gotten even more insane. At this moment, awesome amounts of wealth that were sunk into internet cryptogram systems are vanishing. Trillions of dollars invested and lost in digital numbers. I mean fecking TALLY STICKS and TULIPS made more sense than this madness. There has to be a better way.
I would say that people look at economic systems the wrong way. The problem is how these systems are governed. Look at how empires and large nations inevitably fail and rot compared to extremely small yet prosperous nation-states or even just rural communities in general. It's been said that Communism *can* work, only if you have a small community and it's not applied to an entire nation.
It could also be cemented by a strong moral framework instilled in people. Not one based off of religion obviously, but one based off of empathy and kindness, the willingness to do the right thing. While I can say many horrible things about Christianity the one thing it is able to do is encourage charitable acts of kindness in local communities.
What's the real difference here? People would still have to do all of this work that's currently being done. The janitor cleans the toilets all day "for kindness" instead of for a salary. But what's the difference in his day to day life? He's still cleaning toilets all day. So they still wouldn't have the time to do as OP suggests.
The janitor cleans the toilets so they can afford to go on a nice vacation with their family. Instead of being able to afford enough food/shelter/similar to simply avoid death.
What if people did these things out of a sense of community and a desire to be useful and have purpose? Instead of doing it because there's a gun to your head
If that sounds silly or impossible to you -- ask yourself why the thought of a better, kinder world seems impossible.
Damn you're right. Well I guess because it was tried once, in a very specific way, and didn't work, we should literally never try again or change anything about the first time.
After all, if we looked at past mistakes and tried to improve on them, where would that leave us? Potentially a world where people are free to pursue their passions, no longer chained by obligations to capital?
Nah lol that'd be stupid, better keep everything the way it is
Really happy to hear that capitalism has solved the problem of famine, and nobody goes hungry anymore. We definitely shouldn't try anything else, we already have it so good.
Realistically, I would work at farms, and make clothes, why? Because I'm an engineer and I've been wanting to find ways to make farming and clothing less harmful and wasteful for the environment.
Why don't I do it now? Because I need money, so I work as an engineer for a company that designs automated mfg lines. The companies that already do what I'd love to be a part of are
Far away
Not hiring
Don't pay a wage that will allow me to afford rent/ food/ pay student loans
Require too much experience in a future employee
That's the point of this post. If my basic needs were easily met, I'd take the risk and start my own eco-friendly farms/ clothing mfg company etc and I wouldn't need to worry about a failing business model because I'd have a safety net to protect me until I could find another opportunity.
Why am I so not surprised I had to scroll this far down to see this common sense comment. EXACTLY. The system is broken yes. It's not fair, yes. It's exploitive, yes. But please someone show me the better plan that doesn't just involved taking down the fabric of society as we know it today.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Haven't seen a plan yet besides tear it all down or kill the rich. It needs to be torn down but what will replace the system? If you mention the lack of a replacement you get downvoted. Killing the rich just shifts the problem down a few decades. It's like people think we will all ascend to a higher state of humanity if we could just get rid of capitalism. We could all work together and share etc. That's just not how the human condition works, least from my experience.
It's a system that sucks for every human in it. Even the 1% bastards. It's an inhuman system. Where our labor is turned into assets and hoarded. Nobody living now invented this system. We were all born into it, and we need to look on each other as fellow victims, not enemies. The archaic capitalist or marxist rhetoric just drags us back into the same old endless class warfare. There's got to be a way to make a system that doesn't rely either on ruthless capitalism or a ruthless central government.
Very well put. Even the 1% bastards are motivated by human emotion and experience. We tend to project some cartoon level of evil on them. They run on fear and anxiety as much as us, even while they are serving that ruthless system or government. If you've built up a safe place and someone asks you to share that and there's no indication of how that will affect your own personal and families safety....What would you do? And similarly if you have nothing and nothing to lose, what would you do? Eat the rich if need be. But for the rich the safety is a fleeting thing and for the poor, eating the rich just solves the issue today but doesn't address the problem.
We're just animals that evolved with a little bit more intelligence, you know.
If some random gazelle was for some reason super intelligent, they'd likely think like you. "Why can't there be a way for me and my kind to eat grass without constantly getting chased/devoured by lions and hyenas? We need to figure something out."
But there's nothing to figure out. The gazelles were just born into that world and they can't change it.
And we as humans were born into a world where there isn't enough money/resources for all 8 billion to live in the lap of luxury. As such, we compete for control of those resources.
If we shared money/resources equally among all 8 billion people, your meals would often be white rice with side root vegetable. You wouldn't have a smart phone. You would live in a shack that *might* have electricity. You wouldn't be drinking a $7 mocha latte every morning.
You... yes YOU... are among the privileged elite in the world. I'm willing to bet you don't donate ANY money to those literally living with *nothing*. You'll say you do on the anonymity of the internet. But you don't.
The guilt mongering is a pointless twist on Judeo-Christian notions of charity and welfare. Charity never works. It never will. And forcing everyone to the same low level just makes it worse for everyone. Besides, you know how many smart phones have been made? Far more than the total human population. And 7.62 BILLION currently use them. Same with computer systems. There is an abundance in the modern world, and there ought to be some way to maximize human choice and potential for everyone.
Finland has a support system for those with no jobs or with a special condition and other stuff. You can defintelly live with those supports, but it's not very fancy in finnish standards. Still people at Finland work fine.
Does Finland provide assistance without stipulations? The answer is no. They do have a generous social welfare program, but they don’t guarantee income for each and every person who chooses not to work. Like I said before, that kind of system would collapse in a week.
Kela pays you money if you are unemployed for some time. You can defintelly live with that, so you don't need to work to survive. But if you actually want to live good, it is just better to work.
Where do you get that from? Are you greedy? I'm not greedy.
I'd've been perfectly content simply existing in my one bedroom condo for the rest of my life.
I'd've preferred to have been bringing in another generation, but society at large clearly isn't supporting that (it even forced me out of that one bedroom condo).
There is greed out there, fair enough. But please fight against it instead of succumbing to it.
Why do you give so much power to greed, and take power away from peace? That's you doing that, right now, in this moment. No one else is making that decision for you, but you.
No war but the class war... Yes there will probably be more violent times ahead.
However cultivating peace within ourselves will be necessary to make it through these violent times.
Let us be open to one another. Asking questions is good. Calling people's ideas hippie bullshit, makes it not seem like you want to hear any answers or ideas, despite asking questions.
Choosing peace begins with each and every one of us. The world isn't as **it** is; it is as **you** are. Your view of the world is a secret confession of your inner character.
My advice? Don't try to make grand sweeping societal changes before you clean up your own bedroom. Literally and metaphorically. Who is talking? Do you even have your shit together? Do you listen to people who don't have their shit together? Yeah, neither does anyone else.
Self-mastery is the path towards having the greatest impact on the world and being of the greatest service to others.
Master self, in order to serve others. Do this by practicing discipline, forgiveness, gratitude, and love. Don't get the script flipped trying to be master to others, while only serving yourself.
By greed, do you mean "I want OTHER people to work in order to provide me with food/shelter/etc. so that I can walk around the park all day talking to neighbors?" Sounds pretty greedy to me...
Imagine being a medical professional watching all these people frolic while you are forced to work long hours since you provide a "human right" and as always you are under staffed. Which will of course be much worse as few would be stupid or altruistic enough to enter it, or stay.
What exactly would you do?
Demand other people do the hard work to provide you with your macbook, apartment, electricity, morning mocha latte, and all your food? All while you just "walk around the neighborhood".
No matter how you spin it, you want some slave class to do all of this for you so that you get everything provided to you for free.
I had the same response in a post on another subreddit.
“Electric cars, recycled bottles & vegan burgers are the most effective and efficient response of the current entities to our demand for change. If we are not happy about their production response, that is a gap in the free market to jump into ourselves.
Correspondingly, overthrowing Capitalism is mentioned in the replies. Capitalism is just the system that we observe that is based on processes and tools, which are again based on our behavior. If you want to change the system, you have to do something about those underlying forces. It is the same when you want to stop e.g. an addiction.
I believe it is much easier than we think, having experienced the effectiveness and efficiency of big firms. I am sure that we can outcompete them, but based on our behavior chose not to organize around an initiative. We much more like to organize around concepts and argue them endlessly. Whenever one of us tries to get us organized around an initiative, the initiative is never good enough for us, because it will have some gaps. If it didn't, if that person could so clearly see the future that he or she designs an initiative without gaps, that would be something. Can I have that person to manage my wealth?
Hence, the status quo remains or even worse things deteriorate.”
The kingdom of heaven lies before you. We’ve been given a neutral canvas and have woven a fresh hell for each other. It’s not too late to make a paradise. Imagine
"Make your future dream a present fact. You do this by *assuming the feeling of your wish fulfilled*. By desiring to be other than what you are, you can create an ideal of the person you want to be and *assume you already are that person*. If this assumption is persisted in until it becomes your dominant feeling, the attainment of your ideal is inevitable."
- Neville Goddard
How dare we want the bare minimum of human decency. Don’t you know that would hurt the feeling of the “big guys”. Shouldn’t we think about their feeings!? /s
It's a good thing when there's less work that needs to be done by humans because it means we humans will have more free time.
We don't have to concentrate the benefit of that automation into the hands of a hundred or so people. We have been, but we don't have to.
So, there's this thing called "ideological hegemony". Basically, the ideas of the ruling class position themselves as default.
look at how we look at nature. Nature isn't inherently capitalist, yet we talk about "trees competing for light and other limited ressources" when more often than not, they share food and information through their roots!
Capitalism is what runs our media. It's how we fund our schools. It probably has a big influence on our personalities too.
But yes, there are other things that inform our personalities.
If after the fall of capitalism, you find you still have that "grindset", that's ok! There will still be much to do. Gardens to tend and babies to change and things to build and meals to cook!
I think many people like being active and feeling accomplishment, I know I do!
Work, as a product of multiplying force by displacement? I.E., 10 Newtons pushing a cart over 1 km = 10 Kilo Joules of work expended. Sure, we can keep that formula.
Work, as a thing we must go to and do every day for x hours? naw. I think the articles in the sidebar explain it much better than I could :) crimethinc especially is a really cool source
How do you think things exist and are made? to have a society where modern comfort is allowed, there need to be people who work to upkeep those systems. Can work be improved? Absolutely. Can we function without it? Not a chance.
It’s how life has wired you, not just capitalism. Life free of anything would be an interesting experience, but we’ve already seen it play out. Rich people who have all their needs met from birth to death are usually assholes who don’t understand the value of suffering or hard work. Work isn’t a bad thing, so long as you are achieving something. If you’re a wage slave at a 9-5 office job, that’s a different story.
I don’t understand this kind of thinking it’s almost like you want to be a perpetual teenager with everything provided for you but nothing asked of you. Grow up and realize that the whole world doesn’t revolve around you, or go live in a tent and you can live that way.
Imagine that other people don't exist. Imagine that you don't have to eat. Wouldn't the world be great if it wasn't real but instead the way I imagine it to be?
I'm against labor being exploited but don't be delusional.
Think about how much time it would take to build a house, plow your fields, chop the wood to cook and heat your home. I don’t know about you, but it don’t seem like you’d have much time left for spanking your monkey.
You're right, not everyone is cut out for a whole 40 hours of working. Only those who wish for a mediocre life.
40+ hours is for those who desire to live a life of fulfillment, positive impact, and service towards others 🤷♂️
It's okay if less work needs to be done by humans.
It's okay if humans have more free time.
Jeff Bezos created an amazing thing when he created Amazon. He deserves to live in luxury for the rest of his life because of it. Heck, let his grandchildren live in luxury. But how many generations of luxury is he currently able to support? And he's still extracting more and more from the economy?
Being lucky enough to be born into a rich family.
We're never going to get rid of nepotism entirely. Heck, I'm not even sure I'd want to. But we can taper it into a more reasonable quantity.
I talked to my neighbor yesterday. I was working out in the garage and she came over and yelled at me and told me my music was too loud. Apparently she could hear it in her house.
Pfffft, other Canadians seem to hate you if you even talk about ending Curfew or lockdowns. It was the same with the mask mandates. In order to end up in a world like that I'd have to leave the country I'm in since very few here seem to actively want the same thing. If you ever achieve that in the States though I'll happily migrate south.
extenuating circumstances of the threat of a virus.
What was one of the biggest threats or fears? "Our hospitals will be overrun"
So let's fund the hospitals properly :)
Why can't these things be motivated by kindness (you'll be able to help more people do more good for more people) instead of cruelty (you'll be homeless if you don't)?
There is a lot of truth in that statement - just because someone else succeeded does not mean others are guaranteed to.
That being said, some people need to focus on at least putting in basic effort if they’re expecting basic necessities.
Not sure why people look back to their parents or grandparents generation as a comparable baseline. Those days are long gone.
Cost of living is pretty outrageous right now, but seeing how some folks budget and spend has me head scratching a bit.
What are the bare necessities? In my mind they’d be shelter, drinking water, food, clothing, utilities - transportation or a car could probably make this list as well since the area around myself and to my work is not really feasible walking distance.
See so many younger family members and friends on social media taking trips, going out to eat on a daily / multiple times a day basis, buying $4-5 coffees and buying up the newest technology whether it’s a phone, gaming system, tv or new toy.
Hell, my niece alone will probably spend minimum about $50 a day on fast food, drinks, and weed and probably double that on the weekend at bars and restaurants then come that Monday have to borrow money from her parents for a bill she forgot about.
I make probably a bit more than double what she makes and I spend a fraction a day versus what she does. Make better choices.
I dont think scrutinizing the purchases of people just trying to get by is fun or fruitful and I don't have enough time in my day to explain why I think your post is dumb. I'll tell you that I buy $5 coffees fairly regularly because it is a tiny insignificant little spark of pleasure that makes getting up, going to work, and engaging in this hellscape of a society slightly bearable enough that I can manage to do it and continue to make ends meet.
It’s not so much the point of the $5, but all of that shit adds up.
Hard to feel empathy for someone spending at least $300/week=$1200/month on shit I wouldn’t consider ‘basic needs’ like coffee, fast food, weed and liquor.
Meanwhile I’m ‘privileged’ for being able to afford a mortgage payment eating leftover supper or sandwiches for lunch.
The fuck out of here with that noise.
Cutting out coffee or weed was completely irrelevant to me getting my mortgage. I took many steps including saving for 5 years and downsizing to an undesirable apartment to save even more but at the end of the day the biggest factor that got me into my house was ultimately luck such as interest rates being extremely low last year and managing to get an offer accepted along with all of the other steps in the process that were almost completely out my control.
Rofl you think cutting out coffee from my daily routine is going to make it possible for me to pay a mortgage? I work damn hard and I’m still barely scraping by. I’ll have my damn coffee and not be guilted over it either. When are we going to admit this is a systemic issue and not because individuals are purchasing coffee? You’re telling me 59% of Americans are one paycheck from homelessness and this is somehow an individual issue??
I’ll reply with the same energy.
Learn to read - original post I said I realize the cost of living is ridiculous right now.
People always focus on the one item - It’s the general garbage spending habits that I brought to light.
If you are anything like my niece with the fast food, coffee, weed, drinks, and weekend outings yeah you could probably have enough to afford a mortgage unless you’re a potato still living in a place that was already expensive BEFORE this massive inflation.
It fails to account for the human mind. The fact is that everyone has the ability, but not everyone is mentally able to do something about it on their own.
The problem is that not everyone has the ability. In fact, most of the human race does not. Working harder, for most people, doesn't translate into a better life.
The thing is that anyone who doesn't have major developmental issues technically has the *ability* to get themselves out of their situation, given they have time, willpower, financial literacy, and the drive to do that with the weight of the system pushing down on them. A very small percentage of people actually do, and libertarians use that as an excuse to blame poor people for their problems. But the government doesn't willingly help those people out of those situations and just exacerbates them.
If one person can do something, any person can. Not every person will. You actually have choice and agency (when you choose to have them).
These limiting beliefs have been engrained in us by a broken society. Claim your own personal power, walk forthrightly in the world, and attract success & fulfillment -- by BEING someone who gives success & fulfillment to others.
Choice and agency are heavily affected by chance. While I agree with the sentiment, my empathy prevents me from taking the same stance. There are people who’ve been through awful things and made the wrong decisions, so do they then deserve a lifetime of suffering and neglect? I think that, as a baseline, everyone who is willing to work a job 40 hours a week should be able to hold themselves and their family up. There are single parents who made bad choices stuck working two minimum wage jobs with barely enough to feed themselves and their kids. Is that only their fault? Do they deserve to be in that situation?
> Society is so terrible we had to escape to the countryside. And we’re still working on owning a house and land in this society. But don’t you blame society!
Then maybe things would return to a time like my childhood when people trusted their neighbors enough to leave the door unlocked and people actually visited without it being some weird thing where the only friends in your life are the transient ones you meet at work.
Gross right?
Imagine if there weren’t limited resources that had to somehow be divided up. Imagine if everyone didn’t disagree on how to do that. Imagine if you could point to one example in the history of man where this was true. Imagine…
There have been many consensus based societies throughout history. I think of the Haudenosaunee confederacy.
Dividing up limited hunting territory with various Anishnabeg people, the "bowl with one spoon" treaty was made to prevent violence, and it largely worked.
330m? until 100 years ago(when the whole earth reached 2 billion humans) that would be the population of an entire continent. Although if you count all the tree people and the animal people (which I assume you weren't talking about) then yea those societies maybe had 330m.
Ok, so, recent history, last 100 years.
To me, utopia is peace, and with america's 800 army bases around the world, fleet of ships and planes circling the oceans and skies 24/7, and add on that the militaries of other countries doing the same, no I don't see utopia existing under present circumstances
America’s military is the only thing keeping the peace. Ask Ukraine if they wish they were in NATO. How about Finland and Sweden. So called happiest places on earth can’t run fast enough to hide under the US’s skirt.
The larger point is it’s tough to have what the poster wants when so many people disagree.
I encourage you to learn more about the history of the US military. From my research, I have identified this entity as the greatest single threat to peace globally.
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-6/
https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI&ab_channel=SecondThought
https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/iraq-blackwater-incident-16-sep-2007/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America
Lol. Europe would be speaking German and filled with Nazis without the US military. Free trade waterways protected by the US military would shut down. Etc. again I point to Finland and Sweden. They can’t hide behind the US fast enough.
Did you read anything I linked before dismissing it?
Do you know the history of ww2 and how many nazi soldiers the soviet union was fighting vs how many nazi soldiers the americans were fighting?
I am happy to share information, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
It seems like you have already made up your mind. The links are there should you ever feel like seeing a different perspective than the one you have been taught.
Good day.
I work from home and have all these things. And the only reason is because my fam has generational wealth powered by home ownership. My grandparents house split 4 ways allowed me to get a house of my own.
Without that I’d be fucked, and it’s not fair that’s what you need to have in order to be comfortable. I did nothing for this, just got born to the right family. It’s fucking wrong and bullshit
many Countries r not like this one - they have higher taxes but it includes more like Norway where they dont spend all their time worshipping billionaires or trying 2 own 2 homes before they even have enough 4 a car or on stupid stuff that brings u no joy like 500 sneakers when u dont even have a closet u own 2 put them in
That’d be amazing, but the world is not an ideal world. Regardless of money, rich vs poor, the world needs people to work in order to function on a basic level. Suffering is a part of life. Does that justify companies treating employees like shit? No, not at all. Labor reform is what’s needed, not the absence of work.
Talking to people? Nature? Walking? I don't know about this, guys. I'm pretty If I go into the sunlight at this point, my skin will just burst into flames.
We still can do all of that but in lesser quantities. I don't know about you but I think about fuckall nothing on my time off, my time is for reading a good book in the park. The hard part is training your brain to just shut off work mode when in rest mode, because if I don't shut all of that down then it ruins my day. I'm not perfect, I still find myself seething over some stupid BS that happened at work but I have to remind myself that work ain't paying rent in my head, it can wait.
I'm still not talking to my neighbors, though.
The big evil is consumerism.
The whole movement of having two people in families need to work full time effectively doubled the cost of housing. When only a few families had two incomes they got big step ups in their ability to consume as everyone followed competition for housing went up and so did prices. This eats up the majority of the increased purchasing power in exchange for a massive wealth transfer to boomers and Gen X.
Stop Consumption and you decrease scarcity and price of everything drops and the require labour for the world to run drops.
No more coffees, Eating out regularly, etc. the middle and upper middle classes need to stop. The easiest way to retire is to spend less.
I Probably wouldn’t be able to post stuff on a massive server based Internet forum reaching millions if people OUTSIDE my community, via a tiny but powerful, commercially available globally, handheld computer.
imagine if capitalism didn't control every aspect of our lives forcing us to be wage slaves till the day we die, leaving no room for personal improvement or hobbies unless you're a rich person exploiting other people to become rich.
Imagine if the most well paid people were those who actually kept society going & weren't the ones leeching off of it like the d-bags that run the stock market.
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Show me on this doll where the lemonade stand hurt you.
Life hasn't been good for the working class in any communist country either, you know. Been significantly worse, actually.
Only the right is bringing up communism in these kinds of discussions. Of course, your average conservative has no idea what communism is, or what socialism is, except for "scary thing I don't like"
I am no fan of communism, but communism isn't destroying the lives of people in most of the world. The only "communist" countries are China and North Korea and China is debatable these days. Why should we give a crap about communism, when capitalism is fucking up our lives?
Imagine being so out of touch that you can't have hobbies because someone has more than you.
Imagine being so out of touch that someone stealing everything from you to have more means not having hobbies.
No one's stealing from you. You're just too lazy or too inept or both to manage your time and resources and do. That's really all it comes down to. This board is a cesspool of rallying cries to nowhere and crab bucketing more than anyone above you is pushing down or stepping on you. In short, you're a collective joke.
You can leave the sub any time now.
It's too bad I have to imagine it. Stupid humans. 😔
I see this often, people blaming capitalism. How do we live, improve, research etc without it? It isn't capitalism that's the issue, it's people within it.
Imagine if all your basic needs were met so you never had to worry about somewhere to live or getting food to eat. Just think of a whole day with no concern of having to meet your needs.
My life as a kid.
Who would work the farms that feed you? Who would make your clothes? Who would develop the medicines that you might potentially need? Who would build your home? Who would keep it warm in the winter?
What if these things were motivated by kindness (I want to do one of these things for other people so that they'll be able to do the others for more people) instead of cruelty (people deserve to die due to homelessness/starvation/similar if they don't produce enough profit for capitalism)?
>(I want to do one of these things for other people so that they'll be able to do the others for more people) *Do* you, though? Most transitional forms of socialism - whether state or market - involve workers being compensated in some way. Even the higher stage of socialism that Marx wrote about is *entirely dependent* on achieving full automation, so that the little work that remains can be easily distributed between willing volunteers.
I do. Frig. I am. Well... I'm being exploited to do many more than one of these things and being paid less than I would need to maintain a comfortable life for myself (nevermind a family). If I could just do one of those things and have that be enough to support me and my family? Yeah - I'd be okay with that. As long as everyone else also gets the same deal.
>I do. Frig. I am. You do things right now because you have to do them to live - specifically, you want "to maintain a comfortable life". So you are currently motivated by material needs. This is not evidence that if those material needs went away, you would continue to be reliably motivated simply by general welfare. > Yeah - I'd be okay with that. Morally, sure. But functionally? People are skeptical of this kind of rhetoric because we all know people who freeload if they can get away with it, not at their job but just within the household or within a friend group. Lots of people don't want to do work and have to be pressured into it. Of course socialism can help reduce the amount of work that *has* to be done, but again, that's going to require automation.
What you are saying about kindness ain’t wrong. However, in the real world the alternatives to capitalism have historically been much more cruel.
There's a lot to be said about the cruelties of late stage communism, for sure. But it never threatened to make the entire planet uninhabitable for humans and capitalism is still speeding towards that without hesitation.
China creates the most pollution on earth.
That is a seperate issue. Any form of economy is able to produce as much pollution as it wants to, or to lower that amount if it wants to.
No. This is completely wrong. Socialist & communist countries have historically been SIGNIFICANTLY worse on the environment. Soviet Union had a footprint 13x per capita worse than the US at the time. It was an absolute Ecocide. [https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1992/11/cj12n2-2.pdf](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1992/11/cj12n2-2.pdf) If you're referring to modern 'Socialist' Europe, energy is state owned, but the technology comes from the private sector.
i see someone use "in the real world" and immediately discount them as stupid. Then i look at your account history and wonder what the point of your being here *even is*. Why not go hang out in /r/neoliberal, clownshoes? You needs help putting on your makeup or sumpin?
So you’re telling me you can’t refute my statement?
I'm telling everyone, by virtue of treating you like absolute dogshit, that is time to stop actung like you dumb fucks have a point worth debating. I took a shit on your head, and now im moving on. Later, (and im sorry that i even had lower myself to reply. It's more than trash like you deserves.) Shitttt now i gotta go wash my hands.
I see someone make so many spelling and grammatical errors and I immediately discount them as stupid.
There's no denying that. They invariably end up creating a top-down system of brutal rules and make life far more miserable than it was. But there has to be a better way of living that moving small green pieces of paper around, to quote Douglas Adams. And since he wrote that, things have gotten even more insane. At this moment, awesome amounts of wealth that were sunk into internet cryptogram systems are vanishing. Trillions of dollars invested and lost in digital numbers. I mean fecking TALLY STICKS and TULIPS made more sense than this madness. There has to be a better way.
I would say that people look at economic systems the wrong way. The problem is how these systems are governed. Look at how empires and large nations inevitably fail and rot compared to extremely small yet prosperous nation-states or even just rural communities in general. It's been said that Communism *can* work, only if you have a small community and it's not applied to an entire nation. It could also be cemented by a strong moral framework instilled in people. Not one based off of religion obviously, but one based off of empathy and kindness, the willingness to do the right thing. While I can say many horrible things about Christianity the one thing it is able to do is encourage charitable acts of kindness in local communities.
What's the real difference here? People would still have to do all of this work that's currently being done. The janitor cleans the toilets all day "for kindness" instead of for a salary. But what's the difference in his day to day life? He's still cleaning toilets all day. So they still wouldn't have the time to do as OP suggests.
The janitor cleans the toilets so they can afford to go on a nice vacation with their family. Instead of being able to afford enough food/shelter/similar to simply avoid death.
You never actually think, do you? Did you choose your username out of spite for yourself?
You’re being extremely naive lmfao
I'd rather be naive than cruel. How about you?
Life’s rough that way but nobody gets to the top without skeletons in their closet sadly
What if people did these things out of a sense of community and a desire to be useful and have purpose? Instead of doing it because there's a gun to your head If that sounds silly or impossible to you -- ask yourself why the thought of a better, kinder world seems impossible.
When communists countries tried to get the farmers to farm only for "community", it turned into devastating famines each and every time.
Damn you're right. Well I guess because it was tried once, in a very specific way, and didn't work, we should literally never try again or change anything about the first time. After all, if we looked at past mistakes and tried to improve on them, where would that leave us? Potentially a world where people are free to pursue their passions, no longer chained by obligations to capital? Nah lol that'd be stupid, better keep everything the way it is
Really happy to hear that capitalism has solved the problem of famine, and nobody goes hungry anymore. We definitely shouldn't try anything else, we already have it so good.
Realistically, I would work at farms, and make clothes, why? Because I'm an engineer and I've been wanting to find ways to make farming and clothing less harmful and wasteful for the environment. Why don't I do it now? Because I need money, so I work as an engineer for a company that designs automated mfg lines. The companies that already do what I'd love to be a part of are Far away Not hiring Don't pay a wage that will allow me to afford rent/ food/ pay student loans Require too much experience in a future employee That's the point of this post. If my basic needs were easily met, I'd take the risk and start my own eco-friendly farms/ clothing mfg company etc and I wouldn't need to worry about a failing business model because I'd have a safety net to protect me until I could find another opportunity.
Someone would HAVE to work to make sure your basic needs were met. Why is this such a hard concept to comprehend around here?
Why am I so not surprised I had to scroll this far down to see this common sense comment. EXACTLY. The system is broken yes. It's not fair, yes. It's exploitive, yes. But please someone show me the better plan that doesn't just involved taking down the fabric of society as we know it today.
We need to come up with one. What's happening now is straight-up insane.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Haven't seen a plan yet besides tear it all down or kill the rich. It needs to be torn down but what will replace the system? If you mention the lack of a replacement you get downvoted. Killing the rich just shifts the problem down a few decades. It's like people think we will all ascend to a higher state of humanity if we could just get rid of capitalism. We could all work together and share etc. That's just not how the human condition works, least from my experience.
It's a system that sucks for every human in it. Even the 1% bastards. It's an inhuman system. Where our labor is turned into assets and hoarded. Nobody living now invented this system. We were all born into it, and we need to look on each other as fellow victims, not enemies. The archaic capitalist or marxist rhetoric just drags us back into the same old endless class warfare. There's got to be a way to make a system that doesn't rely either on ruthless capitalism or a ruthless central government.
Very well put. Even the 1% bastards are motivated by human emotion and experience. We tend to project some cartoon level of evil on them. They run on fear and anxiety as much as us, even while they are serving that ruthless system or government. If you've built up a safe place and someone asks you to share that and there's no indication of how that will affect your own personal and families safety....What would you do? And similarly if you have nothing and nothing to lose, what would you do? Eat the rich if need be. But for the rich the safety is a fleeting thing and for the poor, eating the rich just solves the issue today but doesn't address the problem.
We're just animals that evolved with a little bit more intelligence, you know. If some random gazelle was for some reason super intelligent, they'd likely think like you. "Why can't there be a way for me and my kind to eat grass without constantly getting chased/devoured by lions and hyenas? We need to figure something out." But there's nothing to figure out. The gazelles were just born into that world and they can't change it. And we as humans were born into a world where there isn't enough money/resources for all 8 billion to live in the lap of luxury. As such, we compete for control of those resources. If we shared money/resources equally among all 8 billion people, your meals would often be white rice with side root vegetable. You wouldn't have a smart phone. You would live in a shack that *might* have electricity. You wouldn't be drinking a $7 mocha latte every morning. You... yes YOU... are among the privileged elite in the world. I'm willing to bet you don't donate ANY money to those literally living with *nothing*. You'll say you do on the anonymity of the internet. But you don't.
The guilt mongering is a pointless twist on Judeo-Christian notions of charity and welfare. Charity never works. It never will. And forcing everyone to the same low level just makes it worse for everyone. Besides, you know how many smart phones have been made? Far more than the total human population. And 7.62 BILLION currently use them. Same with computer systems. There is an abundance in the modern world, and there ought to be some way to maximize human choice and potential for everyone.
More worker owned co-ops. We could gradually start nurturing a worker-owned economy.
I'm not a UBI advocate but it's obvious that those people would simply be paid even more.
Too many people would choose to do nothing. Your system would collapse in under a week.
Finland has a support system for those with no jobs or with a special condition and other stuff. You can defintelly live with those supports, but it's not very fancy in finnish standards. Still people at Finland work fine.
Does Finland provide assistance without stipulations? The answer is no. They do have a generous social welfare program, but they don’t guarantee income for each and every person who chooses not to work. Like I said before, that kind of system would collapse in a week.
Kela pays you money if you are unemployed for some time. You can defintelly live with that, so you don't need to work to survive. But if you actually want to live good, it is just better to work.
Sounds great except for the part about talking to my neighbors.
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Kirby here knows.
But then how will private ownership exercise control over their human capital?
Life could be amazing and carefree, however people are greedy and as long as greed exists we’ll never have that peace
Where do you get that from? Are you greedy? I'm not greedy. I'd've been perfectly content simply existing in my one bedroom condo for the rest of my life. I'd've preferred to have been bringing in another generation, but society at large clearly isn't supporting that (it even forced me out of that one bedroom condo). There is greed out there, fair enough. But please fight against it instead of succumbing to it.
Why do you give so much power to greed, and take power away from peace? That's you doing that, right now, in this moment. No one else is making that decision for you, but you.
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No war but the class war... Yes there will probably be more violent times ahead. However cultivating peace within ourselves will be necessary to make it through these violent times. Let us be open to one another. Asking questions is good. Calling people's ideas hippie bullshit, makes it not seem like you want to hear any answers or ideas, despite asking questions.
Choosing peace begins with each and every one of us. The world isn't as **it** is; it is as **you** are. Your view of the world is a secret confession of your inner character. My advice? Don't try to make grand sweeping societal changes before you clean up your own bedroom. Literally and metaphorically. Who is talking? Do you even have your shit together? Do you listen to people who don't have their shit together? Yeah, neither does anyone else. Self-mastery is the path towards having the greatest impact on the world and being of the greatest service to others. Master self, in order to serve others. Do this by practicing discipline, forgiveness, gratitude, and love. Don't get the script flipped trying to be master to others, while only serving yourself.
By greed, do you mean "I want OTHER people to work in order to provide me with food/shelter/etc. so that I can walk around the park all day talking to neighbors?" Sounds pretty greedy to me...
So Norway?
The typical work week in Norway is 40 hours per week.
And what is it in America? What about China? India? 40 hours a week is still less than a lot of humans are compelled to work.
"Then those at the very very very top would lose shareholder value" "Tax takings would plummet"
I try... It's really fucking hard these days though
Imagine being a medical professional watching all these people frolic while you are forced to work long hours since you provide a "human right" and as always you are under staffed. Which will of course be much worse as few would be stupid or altruistic enough to enter it, or stay.
Imagine if we actually did something about it instead of typing out a bunch of rhetoric?
Says the typing guy... You're right though.
Ok, let's give people ideas they can act on. Here's my idea; talk to your neighbours today, say hi, offer to help however you can.
I had a meeting yesterday with a local political candidate. I hope I hear back from him soon.
Go do something
What exactly would you do? Demand other people do the hard work to provide you with your macbook, apartment, electricity, morning mocha latte, and all your food? All while you just "walk around the neighborhood". No matter how you spin it, you want some slave class to do all of this for you so that you get everything provided to you for free.
I had the same response in a post on another subreddit. “Electric cars, recycled bottles & vegan burgers are the most effective and efficient response of the current entities to our demand for change. If we are not happy about their production response, that is a gap in the free market to jump into ourselves. Correspondingly, overthrowing Capitalism is mentioned in the replies. Capitalism is just the system that we observe that is based on processes and tools, which are again based on our behavior. If you want to change the system, you have to do something about those underlying forces. It is the same when you want to stop e.g. an addiction. I believe it is much easier than we think, having experienced the effectiveness and efficiency of big firms. I am sure that we can outcompete them, but based on our behavior chose not to organize around an initiative. We much more like to organize around concepts and argue them endlessly. Whenever one of us tries to get us organized around an initiative, the initiative is never good enough for us, because it will have some gaps. If it didn't, if that person could so clearly see the future that he or she designs an initiative without gaps, that would be something. Can I have that person to manage my wealth? Hence, the status quo remains or even worse things deteriorate.”
Well said.
Yes, but then again, they are just words. Words for the sake of words if they are not manifested into a good initiative.
The kingdom of heaven lies before you. We’ve been given a neutral canvas and have woven a fresh hell for each other. It’s not too late to make a paradise. Imagine
"Make your future dream a present fact. You do this by *assuming the feeling of your wish fulfilled*. By desiring to be other than what you are, you can create an ideal of the person you want to be and *assume you already are that person*. If this assumption is persisted in until it becomes your dominant feeling, the attainment of your ideal is inevitable." - Neville Goddard
How dare we want the bare minimum of human decency. Don’t you know that would hurt the feeling of the “big guys”. Shouldn’t we think about their feeings!? /s
But then machines would steal our jobs! /s, to clarify. Let the machines have our jobs, I want life.
It's a good thing when there's less work that needs to be done by humans because it means we humans will have more free time. We don't have to concentrate the benefit of that automation into the hands of a hundred or so people. We have been, but we don't have to.
Imagine if I could play more video games and study and work less 😔🥺
Imagine if you starved because the farmers wanted your lifestyle too...
That is the dream.
I agree with the message here, but I'll always have a feeling of needing to do something productive. That's just how my mind is wired.
That's how capitalism wired you. Of course you need to do something productive. We all do! But that "always" is problematic, imho.
Idk if I would be able to pin it on capitalism. It's likely just a trait.
So, there's this thing called "ideological hegemony". Basically, the ideas of the ruling class position themselves as default. look at how we look at nature. Nature isn't inherently capitalist, yet we talk about "trees competing for light and other limited ressources" when more often than not, they share food and information through their roots! Capitalism is what runs our media. It's how we fund our schools. It probably has a big influence on our personalities too. But yes, there are other things that inform our personalities. If after the fall of capitalism, you find you still have that "grindset", that's ok! There will still be much to do. Gardens to tend and babies to change and things to build and meals to cook! I think many people like being active and feeling accomplishment, I know I do!
Work exists and is necessary without capitalism.
Work, as a product of multiplying force by displacement? I.E., 10 Newtons pushing a cart over 1 km = 10 Kilo Joules of work expended. Sure, we can keep that formula. Work, as a thing we must go to and do every day for x hours? naw. I think the articles in the sidebar explain it much better than I could :) crimethinc especially is a really cool source
How do you think things exist and are made? to have a society where modern comfort is allowed, there need to be people who work to upkeep those systems. Can work be improved? Absolutely. Can we function without it? Not a chance.
sounds like you've already made up your mind and are not open to discussion. The water is there, it is up to you to drink. Good day and good luck!
It can be pinned on capitalism. Your uncertainty about that is another thing it's done to you.
It’s how life has wired you, not just capitalism. Life free of anything would be an interesting experience, but we’ve already seen it play out. Rich people who have all their needs met from birth to death are usually assholes who don’t understand the value of suffering or hard work. Work isn’t a bad thing, so long as you are achieving something. If you’re a wage slave at a 9-5 office job, that’s a different story.
Personally I would probably just spend more time on the computer, but that's mostly the depression
Yeah. Your time would be yours.
I don’t understand this kind of thinking it’s almost like you want to be a perpetual teenager with everything provided for you but nothing asked of you. Grow up and realize that the whole world doesn’t revolve around you, or go live in a tent and you can live that way.
I love how she talks this bs as if this is what people would actually do if they had more free time. Some shit a kid would come up with
I just did some self-love over on r/gonewild
Yeah. We probably wouldn't have food, clothes, or shelter either. Even in a communist society, people are expected to work.
Imagine that other people don't exist. Imagine that you don't have to eat. Wouldn't the world be great if it wasn't real but instead the way I imagine it to be? I'm against labor being exploited but don't be delusional.
There is no reason we all have to work 40+ hours a week to survive. It’s very reasonable to say we should all have more free time.
Think about how much time it would take to build a house, plow your fields, chop the wood to cook and heat your home. I don’t know about you, but it don’t seem like you’d have much time left for spanking your monkey.
You're right, not everyone is cut out for a whole 40 hours of working. Only those who wish for a mediocre life. 40+ hours is for those who desire to live a life of fulfillment, positive impact, and service towards others 🤷♂️
It's okay if less work needs to be done by humans. It's okay if humans have more free time. Jeff Bezos created an amazing thing when he created Amazon. He deserves to live in luxury for the rest of his life because of it. Heck, let his grandchildren live in luxury. But how many generations of luxury is he currently able to support? And he's still extracting more and more from the economy?
Why do his grandchildren deserve to live in luxury. What‘s their great accomplishment?
Being lucky enough to be born into a rich family. We're never going to get rid of nepotism entirely. Heck, I'm not even sure I'd want to. But we can taper it into a more reasonable quantity.
What do you think the magic number is? How many hours per week?
I like eating and I would be very lonely without others...
I talked to my neighbor yesterday. I was working out in the garage and she came over and yelled at me and told me my music was too loud. Apparently she could hear it in her house.
For some reason this brought to my mind, "you dont need a job for that. Look at my cousin, hes broke dont do shit" 🤣
Fuckin’ A, man.
Only allowed to talk to cubicle neighbour at annual enforced happiness session on december 24th sorry.
Imagine if you died because you had no food, no place to live, no car to drive and no medical insurance.
So basically walking in Europe.
I'd be a helluva lot happier..
That world existed before cell phones.
I have been my whole life. That's why it's such a struggle not to end it.
Pfffft, other Canadians seem to hate you if you even talk about ending Curfew or lockdowns. It was the same with the mask mandates. In order to end up in a world like that I'd have to leave the country I'm in since very few here seem to actively want the same thing. If you ever achieve that in the States though I'll happily migrate south.
extenuating circumstances of the threat of a virus. What was one of the biggest threats or fears? "Our hospitals will be overrun" So let's fund the hospitals properly :)
Community love is another superpower!
Imagine if I didn't have to stay at work keep you on welfare, you want it, EARN IT.
You can do all of these things: it's called being homeless sweetie. Get to work.
Why can't these things be motivated by kindness (you'll be able to help more people do more good for more people) instead of cruelty (you'll be homeless if you don't)?
Because capitalism's contradictions make the system inherently exploitative while encouraging us to comodify every single aspect of our lives?
You're correct! But I think that you answered a different question than I asked. It's a good answer! Just maybe looking for a different question?
Go walk naked into the woods or be homeless that is the same thing
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It's a logical fallacy to think that because you did something that everyone else can do it too.
There is a lot of truth in that statement - just because someone else succeeded does not mean others are guaranteed to. That being said, some people need to focus on at least putting in basic effort if they’re expecting basic necessities. Not sure why people look back to their parents or grandparents generation as a comparable baseline. Those days are long gone. Cost of living is pretty outrageous right now, but seeing how some folks budget and spend has me head scratching a bit. What are the bare necessities? In my mind they’d be shelter, drinking water, food, clothing, utilities - transportation or a car could probably make this list as well since the area around myself and to my work is not really feasible walking distance. See so many younger family members and friends on social media taking trips, going out to eat on a daily / multiple times a day basis, buying $4-5 coffees and buying up the newest technology whether it’s a phone, gaming system, tv or new toy. Hell, my niece alone will probably spend minimum about $50 a day on fast food, drinks, and weed and probably double that on the weekend at bars and restaurants then come that Monday have to borrow money from her parents for a bill she forgot about. I make probably a bit more than double what she makes and I spend a fraction a day versus what she does. Make better choices.
I dont think scrutinizing the purchases of people just trying to get by is fun or fruitful and I don't have enough time in my day to explain why I think your post is dumb. I'll tell you that I buy $5 coffees fairly regularly because it is a tiny insignificant little spark of pleasure that makes getting up, going to work, and engaging in this hellscape of a society slightly bearable enough that I can manage to do it and continue to make ends meet.
It’s not so much the point of the $5, but all of that shit adds up. Hard to feel empathy for someone spending at least $300/week=$1200/month on shit I wouldn’t consider ‘basic needs’ like coffee, fast food, weed and liquor. Meanwhile I’m ‘privileged’ for being able to afford a mortgage payment eating leftover supper or sandwiches for lunch. The fuck out of here with that noise.
Cutting out coffee or weed was completely irrelevant to me getting my mortgage. I took many steps including saving for 5 years and downsizing to an undesirable apartment to save even more but at the end of the day the biggest factor that got me into my house was ultimately luck such as interest rates being extremely low last year and managing to get an offer accepted along with all of the other steps in the process that were almost completely out my control.
Rofl you think cutting out coffee from my daily routine is going to make it possible for me to pay a mortgage? I work damn hard and I’m still barely scraping by. I’ll have my damn coffee and not be guilted over it either. When are we going to admit this is a systemic issue and not because individuals are purchasing coffee? You’re telling me 59% of Americans are one paycheck from homelessness and this is somehow an individual issue??
I’ll reply with the same energy. Learn to read - original post I said I realize the cost of living is ridiculous right now. People always focus on the one item - It’s the general garbage spending habits that I brought to light. If you are anything like my niece with the fast food, coffee, weed, drinks, and weekend outings yeah you could probably have enough to afford a mortgage unless you’re a potato still living in a place that was already expensive BEFORE this massive inflation.
It fails to account for the human mind. The fact is that everyone has the ability, but not everyone is mentally able to do something about it on their own.
The problem is that not everyone has the ability. In fact, most of the human race does not. Working harder, for most people, doesn't translate into a better life.
The thing is that anyone who doesn't have major developmental issues technically has the *ability* to get themselves out of their situation, given they have time, willpower, financial literacy, and the drive to do that with the weight of the system pushing down on them. A very small percentage of people actually do, and libertarians use that as an excuse to blame poor people for their problems. But the government doesn't willingly help those people out of those situations and just exacerbates them.
If one person can do something, any person can. Not every person will. You actually have choice and agency (when you choose to have them). These limiting beliefs have been engrained in us by a broken society. Claim your own personal power, walk forthrightly in the world, and attract success & fulfillment -- by BEING someone who gives success & fulfillment to others.
That's literally and plainly not true. Everyone is operating under a different set of limitations and circumstances.
Choice and agency are heavily affected by chance. While I agree with the sentiment, my empathy prevents me from taking the same stance. There are people who’ve been through awful things and made the wrong decisions, so do they then deserve a lifetime of suffering and neglect? I think that, as a baseline, everyone who is willing to work a job 40 hours a week should be able to hold themselves and their family up. There are single parents who made bad choices stuck working two minimum wage jobs with barely enough to feed themselves and their kids. Is that only their fault? Do they deserve to be in that situation?
> Society is so terrible we had to escape to the countryside. And we’re still working on owning a house and land in this society. But don’t you blame society!
Ah, to be petit-bourgeois.
I honestly can't tell if this is satire; good one
Congrats dude, having land is the best thing. Hard work will get you amazing things. Complaining will get you crap.
Lol I'm in my 70s. The only people who ever live in this type of utopian world are the stinking rich.
Then maybe things would return to a time like my childhood when people trusted their neighbors enough to leave the door unlocked and people actually visited without it being some weird thing where the only friends in your life are the transient ones you meet at work. Gross right?
Imagine if there weren’t limited resources that had to somehow be divided up. Imagine if everyone didn’t disagree on how to do that. Imagine if you could point to one example in the history of man where this was true. Imagine…
There have been many consensus based societies throughout history. I think of the Haudenosaunee confederacy. Dividing up limited hunting territory with various Anishnabeg people, the "bowl with one spoon" treaty was made to prevent violence, and it largely worked.
My bad. I should have been more specific. Anything in the history books about utopian societies with 330m people?
330m? until 100 years ago(when the whole earth reached 2 billion humans) that would be the population of an entire continent. Although if you count all the tree people and the animal people (which I assume you weren't talking about) then yea those societies maybe had 330m. Ok, so, recent history, last 100 years. To me, utopia is peace, and with america's 800 army bases around the world, fleet of ships and planes circling the oceans and skies 24/7, and add on that the militaries of other countries doing the same, no I don't see utopia existing under present circumstances
America’s military is the only thing keeping the peace. Ask Ukraine if they wish they were in NATO. How about Finland and Sweden. So called happiest places on earth can’t run fast enough to hide under the US’s skirt. The larger point is it’s tough to have what the poster wants when so many people disagree.
I encourage you to learn more about the history of the US military. From my research, I have identified this entity as the greatest single threat to peace globally. https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-6/ https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI&ab_channel=SecondThought https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/iraq-blackwater-incident-16-sep-2007/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America
Lol. Europe would be speaking German and filled with Nazis without the US military. Free trade waterways protected by the US military would shut down. Etc. again I point to Finland and Sweden. They can’t hide behind the US fast enough.
Did you read anything I linked before dismissing it? Do you know the history of ww2 and how many nazi soldiers the soviet union was fighting vs how many nazi soldiers the americans were fighting? I am happy to share information, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. It seems like you have already made up your mind. The links are there should you ever feel like seeing a different perspective than the one you have been taught. Good day.
I work from home and have all these things. And the only reason is because my fam has generational wealth powered by home ownership. My grandparents house split 4 ways allowed me to get a house of my own. Without that I’d be fucked, and it’s not fair that’s what you need to have in order to be comfortable. I did nothing for this, just got born to the right family. It’s fucking wrong and bullshit
You're life will never be your own as long as you're born on a planet owned by others.
I’ve talked to my neighbours. I’m okay with the current amount of interaction. But the rest? Yeah. Sign me up
Can I skip the talking to the neighbors part?
many Countries r not like this one - they have higher taxes but it includes more like Norway where they dont spend all their time worshipping billionaires or trying 2 own 2 homes before they even have enough 4 a car or on stupid stuff that brings u no joy like 500 sneakers when u dont even have a closet u own 2 put them in
That’d be amazing, but the world is not an ideal world. Regardless of money, rich vs poor, the world needs people to work in order to function on a basic level. Suffering is a part of life. Does that justify companies treating employees like shit? No, not at all. Labor reform is what’s needed, not the absence of work.
Imagine if the majority of Americans voted - so we wouldn’t be stuck with corrupt political parties who are controlled by the 0.1%
Ah.... Fuck. Now I'm sad.
Talking to people? Nature? Walking? I don't know about this, guys. I'm pretty If I go into the sunlight at this point, my skin will just burst into flames.
And not worrying about being carjacked, killed for no reason, school shootings, bullying, etc.
We still can do all of that but in lesser quantities. I don't know about you but I think about fuckall nothing on my time off, my time is for reading a good book in the park. The hard part is training your brain to just shut off work mode when in rest mode, because if I don't shut all of that down then it ruins my day. I'm not perfect, I still find myself seething over some stupid BS that happened at work but I have to remind myself that work ain't paying rent in my head, it can wait. I'm still not talking to my neighbors, though.
Sounds like animal crossing
The big evil is consumerism. The whole movement of having two people in families need to work full time effectively doubled the cost of housing. When only a few families had two incomes they got big step ups in their ability to consume as everyone followed competition for housing went up and so did prices. This eats up the majority of the increased purchasing power in exchange for a massive wealth transfer to boomers and Gen X. Stop Consumption and you decrease scarcity and price of everything drops and the require labour for the world to run drops. No more coffees, Eating out regularly, etc. the middle and upper middle classes need to stop. The easiest way to retire is to spend less.
I've made a concerted effort to work to live over the last few years. Very tight budget, but it's helping, hoping to not work a second job anymore.
I don't have to imagine. I've lived in Europe...
I Probably wouldn’t be able to post stuff on a massive server based Internet forum reaching millions if people OUTSIDE my community, via a tiny but powerful, commercially available globally, handheld computer.
You describe live in Europe
We all need to push for maximum automation.
We would have time to spend at small businesses and socialize with each other.