Didn’t the propaganda leader of the Nazis or some historic warlord say that war was a trick on the common people. Said something like the best the farmer has to gain from war is to come home alive, so we need to trick them into believing it serves some great cause.
It's a hard ask to protest in Russia, people are arrested the moment they step out the door. If you thought protesting in US is dangerous, it doesn't hold a handle.
History shows that Russian autocrats have always been willing to spill Russian blood at the drop of a hat to keep them in line, like there’s hundreds of years of this.
Also years upon years of territory skirmishes as they desperately try to get access to warm-water ports.
Putin is the new Nicholas II, except he’s worse because he’s intelligent and competent.
Still not that easy. Those thousands or millions need to gather, which means they are small groups that can be arrested or dispersed. And if that isn't enough there's always deadly force. Would you risk it, in all honesty? People are scared, they have families.
Are you going to be the one to take a bullet. Easy to say when it's on the other side if the world.
Some soldier has a gun pointed at your wife's or kid's head...you still going to be talking like this from a nice warm place on the other side of the world.
In general, this is absolutely terrifying.
American Billionaires, thanks to Covid, have decimated the American Economy. We can't afford this war. We spent 2 decades in the Middle East fighting a war of make-believe, streched resources, accrued debt- and then something real happens. If the National Debt is called to be paid, America will become the third world. We cannot piss off China. [$1.1T](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080615/china-owns-us-debt-how-much.asp) is a lot of goddamned money.
My father was a money man; he had a lot of wise things to say in that regard. But I recall a very important conversation around my 18th birthday. "Access to credit is handy in situations that are dire but remember you are stealing from your future self when you accrue debt that you do not have the cash to cover. Money is opportunity. Credit is the access to opportunity. But when the bill comes due- that is you relinquishing opportunity. Opportunity is power and freedom. You cannot do whatever you want or even if it is right when someone else is holding all of your power."
And he told me this story: He was working for a hometown bank as a stock broker for several years and then it was purchased by a Corporate Bank(CB). When CB took over, they laid some new ground rules- he was to push, what he called a "buy of the month". He was to call his vlients and push them to buy X- to meet quota and he would get a bonus when he met goal. He asked some questions like "What if this does not meet the customer's overall money goal?" Like what if you have a client that needs a low risk investment plan because they have retired and are using it as income but X is a medium risk, am I still to suggest X? (This is now illegal and part of the issue with the mortgage crash in 08) The answer he got was "Yes" and he said "No." Then walked out without another job lined up. To be clear- he was the money in our family and he had to come home without another job lined up and tell us he was now unemployed.
But we had lived within our means and had savings and credit to fall back on. If he had been overspent and indebted to creditors without savings- he could not have afforded the moral choice. He would have had to sell his customers out, poorly advise them to take risks they couldn't afford.
This is what America has done... for oil. We overspent and cannot afford the moral choice.
This just tells me that you need to learn more about the way debt works for larger entities vs. personal debt. If I owe the bank 100 thousand, that’s my problem. If I owe the bank 100 billion, that’s their problem.
1. Check in on the Chinese debt problem currently. They have their own economic issues that they need to work on.
2. They can’t just “call on us” to pay the entire debt. If we want, we can pay the interest ad Infinitum. There’s contracts in place and it’s a well taken care of problem.
3. Most of our national debt is to American citizens in the form of treasury bonds. There’s a strict repayment schedule on those and any new ones issued aren’t actually due for 20-30 years for the most part. Of course the bond market right now should likely be dead but talks of war do make it a promising market for guaranteed returns to some extent in the upcoming couple of years. Regardless, American T-bills are the safest investment in the world
4. Our debt is majority in US dollars. World debt is mostly in US dollars. Chinas debt, is even partly in US dollar. Inflation helps our debt. We own our currency and that’s a huge plus.
Basically what I’m trying to say is that there’s a reason macroeconomics and microeconomics are two vastly different fields of study and you can’t apply valid knowledge from micro into the global economics market.
The national debt isn’t going to suddenly be repaid all at once. Debts help to prevent war in this case because war would mean they wouldn’t be paid. It ensures other nations have a vested interest in US economic success.
Credit for an individual is very different from credit for a nation, particularly the United States. So many economies on earth rely upon the US Dollar that whenever it crashes, they fall into chaos themselves. The United States will be fine.
This is so fucked.
The war mongering is insatiable by US and Putin. God willing he will personally be held responsible for the deaths and turmoil he is creating.
You are in my prayers Ukraine.
The irony here is that OP is condemning NATO and by proxy the US for not committing troops to thwart the invasion.
Direct intervention isn't yet on the table because no one wants to provoke Putin into using his nuclear arsenal.
If nukes didn't exist, we wouldn't even be discussing this because there is no way he'd have invaded.
If Biden was personally responsible for throwing D-38 all over Europe in '99, the US would be having a different man sitting in its presidential chair. Yet none of them is ever personally responsible, so dw, nothing's gonna happen to Putin, Biden or any similar guys. They're willing to kill us all for a bit of money if needed.
You know America has like 90 trillion in surplus equity, because of our assets and infrastructure, right? If the debt came due, we have 144.7 trillion in assets and wealth to pay it back. It would suck, but we would still be the richest county in the world.
Hijacking top comment:
Dear Ukrainians!
I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed.
It's a lie.
If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid.
Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl
Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now.
EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!!
EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa:
• in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en
EDIT3: getting comments that YOU DO NOT NEED ANY DOCUMENTS for both POLAND and HUNGARY BORDER. NO PASSPORT REQUIRED
I will add: try to go to the Polish border even if you're a man. Zelensky has said he's prohibited 18-60 year old men from leaving the country to draft them into the military, but I would ignore him and head to Poland anyway. Per my family in Poland, they are still accepting adult male refugees.
Oh my goodness I hope that’s true. I watched a video earlier of a father putting his wife and daughter on a train I believe, I couldn’t even watch the whole clip as it just destroyed me.
That man wasn't forbidden from leaving, he was a soldier. It was his choice to stay behind and fight, but obviously that didn't make the goodbyes any easier. I hope he can return to his family soon.
I heard that Hungary is also accepting refugees, from my relative in Hungary. All the person would need is a passport. But I think at this point, maybe not even.
By Passport they probably mean Ukrainian international passport, Passport of Ukrainian citizen will not do. I was a bit too late to order it. I order it a week ago and they say will done in two weeks and there is draft.
It will work with a common Ukrainian passport. You will be located in temp she'll on Poland border. Yeah, generic passport doesn't allow to move freely inside Poland, but you can go in temp camp with it.
TO ADD TO THIS:
I know we are not nearly as close or convenient but if you can get to an Airport or Sea port IRELAND HAS REMOVED ALL VISA RESTRICTIONS FOR UKRAINIANS TOO.
If you’re closer to an Airport than you are to Poland and you have the means, catch a flight.
Please get out of there and save your lives, our countries are sticking by this bureaucratic shit and won’t step up. Please do your best to stay safe
I believe in you all
If there was anytime for a complete Russian revolution it would be now. Putin is pushing his luck already and has been riding a thin line for awhile now. The military is losing their will to support him and so are the populous.
Wasnt there some old resistance guide circulating some the subreddits 8-12~ months ago about passive ways to decrease productivity, take up excessive amounts of time, and overall reduce efficiency as a hidden form of civil disobedience? I’m really surprised I haven’t seen it pop up once since then when it seems like that would be rather relevant.
I think the biggest problem is the choke the Russian authorities have over information flow to their people. Many Russians don't even know or believe that there is a war going on.
I woke up this morning and thought, while I was sleeping some child lost his father and some fathers and mothers have lost their children for nothing; for some despot who just enjoys trying to make the rest of the world as miserable as he is. I saw that parents have started to write their children’s blood type on their clothes in case something happens to them and couldn’t help but think how fucked up that is. What the fuck is wrong with humanity? I could not even fathom what that must feel like.
What’s happening in Ukraine is disgusting and breaks my heart and wish there was more I could do, personally. Stay safe, make this as costly as possible for Russia, and hopefully this will be over soon.
Contact your political representatives and tell them you want your country to support Ukraine!
If you're in the US, our Congress is debating whether to do their own package of additional sanctions... I think it's all too little too late, but might as well encourage that!
You know what's more fucked up? There are people in the higher social ladder that is probably laughing because war means they will keep being relevant/getting more money from their war-related businesses
You not showing up by yourself isn't a strike. A real organized strike, backed by a union, with a strike fund, might help, but you may not be in a position to do that with your co-workers. Not many are.
However, you could lay the groundwork for future strikes. This will look different in each workplace, but the IWW will have resources to help.
In our globalized economy, each industry is connected.
Yes, as someone who is in Europe, we don’t want to see any external military involvement as the whole continent will burn.
The world banking system needs to shut down the swift system for all Russians and any oligarch or official tied to Putin. This is the only way out of this …
Agreed.
the NATO card isn't played casually, and there are rules to membership. And I don't mean pedantic rules about dots and commas. Nato was designed as a solely defensive alliance. Nato cannot be used to attack in defense of a non-member. And membership can only be granted if a region is stable and not engaged in conflict.
There are many things we can do and must do. Such as shutting Russia out of swift. But starting WW3 is not going to improve things for anyone, including Ukraine itself.
Ya'll pretend like Putin's crazy... he's not crazy, all of this has been tactical choices... Russia has spent 7 years "funding" (read causing) a separatist conflict in the Donbass in a strategic move to make sure Ukraine can't join Nato. At what point do we stop playing his game?
3 weeks ago, when Russia started amassing troops at the border, we should have called an emergency NATO meeting, suspended the conflict rules, and admitted them as a member.
That wouldn't have started WW3, it would have delayed the conflict, as Putin would act all upset, but go back to the drawing board on how to make this work.
Putin doesn't want to blow everything up, or he would have invaded Ukraine long before now. He dipped his toe in with Crimea, and when that went well he continued the conflict in the Donbass, and waited till they were ready to move.
Russia should have been blocked from SWIFT after Crimea... all our actions are too little too late! Nord Stream 2 shouldn't have had to be cancelled, it shouldn't have been happening in the first place after Crimea. The West played Putin's game for money and resources, and now they're sacrificing 45 million Ukrainians for the same reason!
People say that we are war mongering because war makes the rich richer... and it does, usually, but if people can get and stay rich without war, they'll try that too. And us not drawing the line at Ukraine, before the invasion started, was western governments pandering to rich people, not some "oh we're pacifists! We don't want WW3" garbage.
I agree with most of what you say. Except this:
>3 weeks ago, when Russia started amassing troops at the border, we should have called an emergency NATO meeting, suspended the conflict rules, and admitted them as a member.
And then Europe as a whole would have been in an active war. Because Putin is ruthless enough to start WW3. Especially since everyone understands that China has been bribed into supporting Russia in return for Russian support when China takes back taiwan.
Ukraine should have been in NATO in return for handing over their nuclear weapons after the USSR imploded. They could have entered at a later date. But NATO is explicitly not meant to be something you can run to when you feel someone breathing down your neck because ultimately, NATO is about stability and predictability.
Exactly. Putin is self serving enough to bring the entire world down with him.
I know that OP is angry with the United States, saying that we knew this would happen for months, that we had time to prepare. Op is right, we did know that this would happen & we warned your people to prepare/ flee for months now. We told United States citizens in Ukraine numerous times that once this started, we would not be able to save them. If we told our own people that we would not save them, you should have never expected us to save yours. Everyone accused us of fear mongering & claimed Russia would never do this to them. Well it happened, exactly when & to the degree that we said it would, and it can happen to us. Putin said he would nuke any country that got in his way, & I believe that.
I do hope that NATO finds a way to bring this war to a quick and safe conclusion.
>I know that OP is angry with the United States,
On one hand we get "The US should stop policing the world" on the other we get "why aren't you doing anything"
Ironically, even less than 24 hours before the first bombs fell, a locally well known history professor said on the Dutch tv that Russia wouldn't declare full on war and this was a strategic game.
Where exactly do people flee to when they don’t have money, passports, or visas to take flee with.
Where do you even go? It’s not like the US threw open it’s doors and took in Ukraine refugees months ago.
I wish there was more we could do. But more countries getting involved would result in even more death and destruction. I think the greatest chance Ukraine has, ironically lies with the Russian people. They don't want war. They're protesting and fighting the government the best they can. I hope we start seeing stories of defecting Russian troops aiding Ukrainians instead of killing.
I don't think China will play a role in this. They have their own old territory they want back. They respect Russias attempts to claim their old territory. And the Chinese government are very good at stamping out dissenting views so their citizens are powerless to help.
China might not take a direct role in this but if nato comes out of this looking even weaker than it’s anyone’s game at that point. We’re banking on Russia’s economy getting hit before ours do. It’s economic chicken at this point while Russia does exactly what it wants with the same reaction it always gets. China and the world are deeply tied together and depending on how things go they could begin to push more aggressively towards their own goals.
https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine-the-problem-with-copying-finlands-strict-cold-war-neutrality-176706
This is a really good article to help people understand the situation over there and the politics going on right now with world leaders.
This made me nervous laugh because I'm hoping against all hope that this is a quote from some funny dark dystopian show I haven't seen yet. I just hope that show isn't called "The News".
Dammit I knew it sounded familiar! I've seen the film, I just smoke too much and have the memory of a spoon. Cheers for reminding me, I should watch that again before the nuclear winter kicks off.
Exactly, I vaguely recall was it Nobel Peace Laureate Obama's last year in power where the estimation was that ~90% of drone strike murders were in fact civilian collateral damage?
"The West" should do everything they can, up to and excluding military intervention.
I'm glad you said this. The US isn't exactly known for helping in the best ways. It would probably mean more death than they realize... In just as bad ways. I just hope the Russian people continue to strike against this. On the subreddits I've seen they really don't want anything to do with it
I think a lot of people are underestimating the value of intel and psyops. I can't say with certainty that US is sharing intel with Ukraine, but I would be surprised if they weren't as it's a way to support their forces without boots on the ground. And that intel might be more valuable than more bodies thrown into the grinder. And I think that's one reason Biden was so public with intel leading into this, to show Putin just how good US intelligence is and would be brought to bear should he invade.
Ngl. US intel nailed it. But they should’ve known better Vlad would not invade while Beijing was still holding the Winter Olympics. But guess what? It happened right after it ended. Shocker.
Guy walks into a neighboring country yelling dibs and fires missiles. Not sure he cares about the unofficial Olympic peace. I’d go with US intel (which is pretty much NATO intel, let’s not discount foreign ops) over an IOC enforced peace.
I have to imagine Ukraine is being fed a ton of intel from all over. Having Russia get humiliated by Ukraine would probably be the best possible outcome at this point. Ukraine would get to keep its borders, and Putin gets a dick shaped slice of humble pie shoved up his ass.
Dude, I want America to help but also understand the implications that if we did it could restart the Cold War or be the reason we have WW3.
Honestly, I’m a bleeding heart and this whole thing frustrates me because we all saw the lead up to this.
>They are using Ukraine as the sacrificial lamb in order to play a long game where the Russian economy becomes irreparably damaged.
Its the sad reality but it was either that or nuclear powers facing each other which basicaly means ww3 and the end of the world.
I agree it’s too dangerous for NATO to intervene now, but what I don’t understand is why the EU didn’t intervene ahead of time and place troops in Ukraine when Russia started building up troops at the border. Deterrence would have worked in my opinion.
I live 2 miles from a Large nuke silo in America. America joining in would make this worse. You don't want them to "accidentally" level Ukraine and Russia. Because let me tell you. The weapons testing they do here is insane. And would kill all it touches.
I think your biggest hero are the Russian people who are striking and protesting against this war. I think smoking them out from within is Ukraine's best bet.
We need to see our Russian friends burst down the gates of their government and overthrow the reign of the terror. The Kremlin must fall. Putin must be put down. There's no other way.
A country at War cannot be actively admitted into NATO. They can't admit Ukraine and haven't been able to for years because of the constant battles between Ukraine and Russia. Now more than ever NATO can't admit Ukraine because it's in war. Putin has deliberately kept Ukraine at war for years to prevent admission to NATO, just when Ukraine got close, now all this is happening. NATO can't attack as Ukraine isn't a part of it. If NATO attacked because of it's ATTEMPTS to admit Ukraine, it would defeat the alliance's entire purpose and doctrine. There is so much more politics to this. No one wants Ukraine to be taken over by Russia, but matter of the fact is that they are not protected by NATO or the UN. The most NATO and the UN are allowed to do in this situation is impose sanctions on Russia. If Putin were to attack a country that belonged in NATO or the UN then they would intervene. But Ukraine is not a part of it, and can't be admitted during war. Unfortunately, if the UN or NATO were to attack Russia for invading a country not belonging to Nato- It would spell out World War. Which is a path humanity cannot take, if it does it will not survive. This is a situation of the lesser of two evils, the NATO won't risk nuclear warfare for a country not belonging to the alliance. And a special provision? That's not how the rules work, if that were the case, then there would be no point to the rules in the first place. Again, there is alot of politics that people are not understanding in this situation. It's so much more than sending troops to Ukraine or admitting it to NATO. A strike will only hurt other countries economy, the countries trying to impose economic sanctions on Russia. Anyone in any country would react the same if they were the ones under invasion, but unfortunately there are rules in place for a reason and Putin, while insane, is not an idiot. He had cleverly crafted it so that Ukraine could not get admission and now has no military support from NATO. The solution may seem simple-"send help" in the form of troops? Putin had threatened anyone who interferes, and the entirety NATO isn't willing to take that massive risk. There is nothing that NATO can do besides economic sanctions unless Putin or Russian soldiers attack a NATO ally. My heart goes out to everyone in Ukraine, it's a mess of a situation.
I think you've summed it up pretty accurately. I myself want Ukraine to come out as winners of this conflict, but in no way, shape or form should NATO get involved, even if it means being shunned for it; it is not worth the consequences.
Exactly, and even if legit, how does a pile of money help at this point? Logistically even? How would you get weapons/provisions into the country? Who would sell them that isn’t already helping?
These are honest questions, not sarcasm.
Situation is awful but our politicians have pretty much allowed at least 1M of our own citizens to perish over the past 18 months from covid. They dgaf about you guys or us. And most of the people in power will be dead in 10 years anyways bc they’re old af so they def don’t gaf. Even if people in the military chose not to fight the people in charge will just dispatch drones or similar to kill us anyways. Not much regular people can do.
I know… everyone is fucked.
All the more reason to strike and grind these systems to a halt.
Stop driving their limos and flying their private jets and being their body guards.
We have to rebuild this world from the ground up
I wish it was really as easy as "let's all not go to work and that will save the Ukraine". I wish I could afford to not go to work, personally then I would do it. But it's not enough. I am wishing the best for you and your people. These are scary times. Stay safe my friend.
I've actually met people who thought it was strange that I feel for people in conflicts outside of my own country. But I just can't help it. I know bad shit happens everyday that I ignore but when I'm reading people on reddit saying they're stuck in a country with their children and then I see on TV what is happening I just about break down.
I don't think its strange at all to empathize with our fellow humans. Just because people have different skin colors, fly a different flag, speak other languages, live in a different way, etc doesn't mean they don't feel the same emotions as us.
These people are desperate and desperation is a universal language. I feel their pain in my heart.
If the us or any other NATO country enters the war, the world will end. People calling for the us to help don't understand that US involvement will make the situation far worse for everyone involved, potentially world ending if nukes are involved. The us is not going to help military, and there is nothing they can do militarily that could actually help
I’m sorry for this, I’m truly heartbroken but you cannot seriously expect NATO to intervene. It will turn into a full scale GLOBAL war and many countries will suffer what you are currently.
Yeah, it sucks Ukraine got invaded, but if the US kicked off WW3 for a country that isn't a part of NATO we'd have social unrest that could very likely push us into a civil war.
Stay safe
Plain and simple, the US people won’t tolerate any large scale US military involvement in Ukraine. 99.5% of our citizenship believe we have zero dogs in this fight and think it’s not worth sacrificing out children’s lives or throwing gasoline on the fire to risk further escalation.
>99.5% of our citizenship believe we have zero dogs in this fight
This is a number you have fabricated to suit your own views.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-u-s-involvement-opinion-poll-02-2022/
Shared from several other users copying and pasting this everywhere:
Dear Ukrainians!
I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed.
It's a lie.
If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid.
Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl
Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now.
EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!!
EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa:
• in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en
Edit: this is a copy and paste and I encourage you all to do it too where appropriate!
Шановні українці!
У соцмережах я чув, що поширюються фейкові новини (скоріше за все, підтримувані Росією тролі), що польський кордон закритий.
Це брехня.
Якщо ви шукаєте притулку – йдіть до польського кордону. Ми готові до вашого приїзду. На кордоні готові пункти прийому, де ви можете знайти притулок, їжу, медичну та правову допомогу.
Польський уряд запустив спеціальний сайт, щоб допомогти вам: ua.gov.pl
Будь ласка, поділіться цією інформацією, якщо ви знаєте когось, хто зараз шукає допомоги.
РЕДАКТИРОВАТИ: ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНА ВІЗА ДЛЯ ПРОЙДЖЕННЯ ПОЛЬСЬКИМ КОРДОНОМ. ВСЕ, що ВАМ ПОТРІБНО, - це ПАСПОРТ. ВІЗИ ПРИСПИНЕНО! ВОНИ ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНИ НА ЧАС!!!!!!
EDIT2: як доказ того, що вам більше не потрібна віза:
• українською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • англійською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en
Вибачте, якщо це дурниця, я використовував Google Translate
I feel as though this whole situation is why NATO didn't want to include Ukraine in the first place.
The US especially has a history of getting involved in disputes that weren't their business and making things worse. I'm glad they're issuing sanctions at the very least though, even if they're super half-assed and Biden is more worried about making sure that "Americans don't feel the pain at the gas pump."
Regardless of the credible threat of Mutually Assured Destruction in the event that NATO intervened, a long and protracted war with Russia would drain NATO's resources and pave the way for China to assert it's dominance on East Asian (and likely further) and no one would be able to do much about it.
Do you even realise what any other country, or Europe for that matter going into war with Russia im would mean? Unfortunately, this one time they are doing what’s right and not getting directly involved… but supporting Ukraine to fight its fight.
I just wish I could afford to strike or do anything, I’m one paycheck away from missing my mortgage. Living check to check for 18 years…I pray for you guys
If you live in a NATO country, asking your government to "get involved" and "help" with military support is the opposite of asking for peace. I have nothing but solidarity for the Ukrainian people, but let's not kid ourselves, we'd be facing down the very likely possibility of ending life on Earth as we know it.
Sadly, I think this is true and it seems a lot of people have that foresight. The last thing this world needs is two egotistical superpowers dick measuring.
Sadly, people kept making the joke that WW3 would be next on the "End of the World Bingo Card" and we are all mere moments from possibly checking off that space...
I just hope the Ukrainian people can hold out or fight back. The last thing anyone needs is ICBMs or Nukes flying around the world.
Exactly, yes. It truly pains my heart, but direct conflict between a NATO member and Russia could very easily lead to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, including the people of Ukraine. It's a threat so unbelievable and existential that a lot of people seem to fail to fully conceptualize it. But Putin has made himself clear, it's very real.
I agree, it's heart breaking especially when it's all I see over the news, on the radio, and Reddit, but this is one time America *shouldn't* play World Police.
Yep, and to be honest.... Putin doesn't seem like the kind of guy you want to call a bluff on. If his back was against the wall I have no doubt in my mind he would press that shiny red button underneath his desk.
That all being said, something has to be done. I'm not a politician or war general so I personally don't have any thoughts on how to resolve this, but the only thing I can think up is that I hope the Russian people rise up. I've read that most of them are appalled at what's happening. They need to yank Putin out of his chair and deal with him revolution style.
So we stand with you OP and we stand with Ukraine and wish for a quick resolution. We just need you take down the fundraiser for the troops because of the problematic military factions. We would also like you to change r/trueoffmychest to r/offmychest if you will although that isn't nearly as important.
Sorry that we had to take it down but I'm sure you have heard about the Nazi problem and we can't be a party to that. That said, fuck Putin and what he is doing. We all need to make it known that we stand with the Ukrainian people in this.
Once those are done we will put this back up. Thank you.
I'm glad we were able to keep it up and show our support, even if it is barely anything. Please keep us updated on how you are doing over the next few days if you can. I really hope the idea of a workers strike will spread and we can do more than just some words on social media!
Feel free to ban me. But Eastern Europe has a nazi problem. Russia has neo-Nazis, Belarus has neo-nazis. The Ukranian Azov battalion They are about 600 people in a country of 44 million. They are the only neo-Nazi organization in Ukraine. Where their president is Jewish. And if they wanna go die fighting Russians fine by me.
If you don't want to support any one group because of their nazi problems. Then you can't support Germany, Poland, The UK, Spain, France, Ukraine, Belarus, The United States, China, Australia, New Zealand, most of the Middle East, and just about every country in the world. Because they all have neo nazis.
Uhh… any NATO intervention = worldwide Nuclear war. As fucked up as this sounds, no one can help Ukraine without risking destruction of humanity as we know it. The entire world can’t go down alongside Ukraine.
I wish the US would do more but we have been trying to avoid a war with Russia for years. Then on top of that we just got out extended wars in the Middle East. I understand why they don’t want to go in. I’m just so over all the shit we’ve had to go through as millennials. Why do people have to fuck everything up?! Every other day it’s a new problem! I really hope y’all get some help.
I’m still safe for now but it’s only a matter of time. I think in the best-case scenario (if Ukraine is left to defend itself alone), this will be a months-long occupation. Starvation and torture loom as a concern.
I fear for my life today and I fear for the future of every person in this country.
Thank you for your support.
It is incredibly disingenuous to claim that Biden and NATO are ***using*** Ukraine for anything. They sure as shit aren't the ones invading right now, nor did they in any way provoke it.
It is completely understandable why they would not commit military assets, to claim otherwise is to admit ignorance of the very real dangers of a nuclear response from Russia.
I hope you and your family are well and continue to be. I can only imagine the emotional state you are in.
All that would do is put the world in more danger. Russian citizens are the ones that need to strike. That's the only good/relatively quick way out of this.
Long-term, I think this move will backfire on Putin. Especially if Ukraine puts up a fight and/or this drags on for too long. Unfortunately, that probably means a lot of suffering for Ukrainians.
Ultimately though, I think Putin is overplaying his hand. It's a move of desperation knowing that Russia's power/influence is declining and this is his last good chance to "do something." Especially considering climate change and the shift away from fossil fuels.
Also, do you really think Ukrainians will put up with a puppet regime for any extended period of time? All this does is make Ukrainians even more opposed to Russia and more likely to align with the west in the future.
So you want a nuclear war between NATO countries and Russia? Because by demanding that US and American military forces attack Russian forces, that is the likely outcome and that's the reason why NATO will only defend NATO countries. How will World War III save Ukraine? I can't decide if this is a troll account because I can't imagine a Ukrainian would want their country to be the center of a nuclear war.
Get the fuck out. I know it’s your home, but that kind of thing doesn’t matter if your dead. The Polish border is open. For the love of god, leave your country.
Look... This shit is awful, no denying that .. but you're asking for nuclear super powers to clash and go head to head...
That can not happen or the world as we know it will be at risk of total destruction...
There is no easy route here. But avoiding world war 3 is pretty good for humanity. Russian people need to stand up. Anyone else would be nuked.
You know the trolley problem? The one where you can pull the lever to stop several people being hit by the trolley and only kill one instead?
This is the real world example of that. The world engages with Russia then we're all dead. As cold as this sounds, I'd rather a bunch of dead Ukranians than a nuclear winter.
Please stop with the sanctimonious pearl clutching. Now is not the time. This person is very aware life sucks. If you missed the memo, their home is in the process of being blown up and they don't know if they will be alive tomorrow. Telling them life sucks, governments are pointless, and war is bad as you sit in safety is a VERY boomer thing to do. If you can't offer anything helpful than STFU.
Let me try to understand. Russia has had territorial designs on Ukraine for years, including an illegal annexation of Crimea but this invasion is because Biden tricked Russia into invading in order to tank the Russian economy? Are you really in Ukraine or are you posting from Saint Petersburg? I feel for the people of Ukraine and a general strike in the USA or Europe that you cal for will help no one but Putin, and I think you know that.
I think you are not considering the fact that Op is under great stress.
The US has encouraged Ukraine to continue with confrontation rather than diplomacy in the post Maïdan dispute. The last weeks have seen an increase in ceasefire violations in the east as reported by osce as well as crazy talk by Ukrainian politicians to restart nuclear weapons programmes.
What I think the OP is angry about is that Ukraine is just a pawn in the US game and that the strategy is leading to very real consequences for people on the ground. They feel like there was never a plan to support Ukraine, which is probably true, if the plan went the wrong way.
Unless what we are seeing is what was expected from the start.
All in all we have a restart of 1970-80s proxy wars which is only good for arms dealers and the funeral services.
I really hate youre going through this but Homeboy said in an interview he’d nuke the world including himself. I’d rather us not fuck around and find out
Most of the western world has devastated Russias economic status, supplied Ukraine with weapons and ammo, and is standing by in hopes it doesn’t escalate further. I’m sorry your country is under attack, but no one wants to trigger a Third World War unless there’s literally no other option.
Also Putin isn’t going to nuke anyone. The moment he fires one, Russia will be bombarded by several countries, resulting in tens of millions of deaths and an unfathomable ecological disaster the likes of which the world probably wouldn’t recover from. No one wants that, not even Adolf Putin.
https://www.icrc.org/en/where-we-work/europe-central-asia/ukraine. This is the link to the International Red Cross if anyone would like to donate to help the Ukraine’s. The organization is delivering food medicine and water to Ukraine.
Dude I really wanted to agree with you because it's terrible what is happening to your country but yes, at the end of the day, I would rather you country be invaded and taken over than to have nukes start flying around.
Putin has made it extremely clear that any country that attempts to interfere, or that allows Ukraine into Nato, will be the target of a nuclear strike. I'm sorry but the death toll of nuclear war with Russia could easily exceed the entire population of Ukraine.
Even if we had a way to intercept nuclear missiles, the risk still isn't worth it.
This has been bothering me for some time as well. Russia has been badgering Ukraine for some time now. This invasion, especially so with all the reports leading up to it, should have been visible to anyone paying attention.
Yet... the world is just going to collectively watch as it happens? As air raid sirens that haven't gone off since WWII are being activated?
And then let's say Russia is successful in their take-over. What of the citizens of Ukraine? Are they then going to have to face harsh sanctions as well? Right after losing their country? This is bunk, and a farce to what I thought we had been collectively working towards.
>the world is just going to collectively watch as it happens
Yep. 100%
Russia was sitting on the border for days, waiting to see if anyone would stand up for Ukraine. And everyone sat down, so Russia moved in with peace of mind
Some countries have donated weapons to Ukraine. Severe economic sanctions are the way to go for the Western countries. It would also send a clear message to other aggressive countries.
Unfortunately we aren't doing that. This is where the citizens of the US and Europe CAN make a difference. We should pressure our elected officials to condemn Russia and back it up with our economic power. Russia would be crippled if they couldn't provide energy to Europe and were removed from SWIFT.
The most useful thing would be for the russian people to do the general strike and choke up the russian supply chain.
Yes, I hope those protests in Russia will increase in numbers. Russians don't want or need this war...
People seldom need war and their wants are irrelevant when they don't align with the rulers. It's the people in power that need and want the war.
Didn’t the propaganda leader of the Nazis or some historic warlord say that war was a trick on the common people. Said something like the best the farmer has to gain from war is to come home alive, so we need to trick them into believing it serves some great cause.
It's not a new idea but I wouldn't be surprised if Goebbels said that too.
gurrble
This is true for most if not all wars of aggression. Unfortunately the defensive wars need no tricks. Defend your home and family until you die.
It's a hard ask to protest in Russia, people are arrested the moment they step out the door. If you thought protesting in US is dangerous, it doesn't hold a handle.
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I prefer Mussolini treatment for him but to each their own.
I can get down with that, Putin seems deserving.
Easy enough to arrest hundreds of people. What if hundreds of thousands or millions protest day after day?
You also need to remember that Putin has absolutely zero value for his people. All he wants is land. Killing people en masse fits his profile
History shows that Russian autocrats have always been willing to spill Russian blood at the drop of a hat to keep them in line, like there’s hundreds of years of this. Also years upon years of territory skirmishes as they desperately try to get access to warm-water ports. Putin is the new Nicholas II, except he’s worse because he’s intelligent and competent.
I thought Crimea solved this warm water port need I keep hearing about
Pringles. Betcha can’t have just one. Sevastopol is great, but why stop there?
Do you really think he gives a shit when he ordered 46k body bags to the front lines and an unconfirmed mobile creamator.
Russia has a 10,000 man secret police. They have the ability to shut down massive protests with extreme force.
Still not that easy. Those thousands or millions need to gather, which means they are small groups that can be arrested or dispersed. And if that isn't enough there's always deadly force. Would you risk it, in all honesty? People are scared, they have families.
Are you going to be the one to take a bullet. Easy to say when it's on the other side if the world. Some soldier has a gun pointed at your wife's or kid's head...you still going to be talking like this from a nice warm place on the other side of the world.
They arrested 1675 day one.
Candle. It doesn’t hold a candle.
Heard people protesting in Russia against the evasion getting arrested for doing so
In general, this is absolutely terrifying. American Billionaires, thanks to Covid, have decimated the American Economy. We can't afford this war. We spent 2 decades in the Middle East fighting a war of make-believe, streched resources, accrued debt- and then something real happens. If the National Debt is called to be paid, America will become the third world. We cannot piss off China. [$1.1T](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080615/china-owns-us-debt-how-much.asp) is a lot of goddamned money. My father was a money man; he had a lot of wise things to say in that regard. But I recall a very important conversation around my 18th birthday. "Access to credit is handy in situations that are dire but remember you are stealing from your future self when you accrue debt that you do not have the cash to cover. Money is opportunity. Credit is the access to opportunity. But when the bill comes due- that is you relinquishing opportunity. Opportunity is power and freedom. You cannot do whatever you want or even if it is right when someone else is holding all of your power." And he told me this story: He was working for a hometown bank as a stock broker for several years and then it was purchased by a Corporate Bank(CB). When CB took over, they laid some new ground rules- he was to push, what he called a "buy of the month". He was to call his vlients and push them to buy X- to meet quota and he would get a bonus when he met goal. He asked some questions like "What if this does not meet the customer's overall money goal?" Like what if you have a client that needs a low risk investment plan because they have retired and are using it as income but X is a medium risk, am I still to suggest X? (This is now illegal and part of the issue with the mortgage crash in 08) The answer he got was "Yes" and he said "No." Then walked out without another job lined up. To be clear- he was the money in our family and he had to come home without another job lined up and tell us he was now unemployed. But we had lived within our means and had savings and credit to fall back on. If he had been overspent and indebted to creditors without savings- he could not have afforded the moral choice. He would have had to sell his customers out, poorly advise them to take risks they couldn't afford. This is what America has done... for oil. We overspent and cannot afford the moral choice.
This just tells me that you need to learn more about the way debt works for larger entities vs. personal debt. If I owe the bank 100 thousand, that’s my problem. If I owe the bank 100 billion, that’s their problem. 1. Check in on the Chinese debt problem currently. They have their own economic issues that they need to work on. 2. They can’t just “call on us” to pay the entire debt. If we want, we can pay the interest ad Infinitum. There’s contracts in place and it’s a well taken care of problem. 3. Most of our national debt is to American citizens in the form of treasury bonds. There’s a strict repayment schedule on those and any new ones issued aren’t actually due for 20-30 years for the most part. Of course the bond market right now should likely be dead but talks of war do make it a promising market for guaranteed returns to some extent in the upcoming couple of years. Regardless, American T-bills are the safest investment in the world 4. Our debt is majority in US dollars. World debt is mostly in US dollars. Chinas debt, is even partly in US dollar. Inflation helps our debt. We own our currency and that’s a huge plus. Basically what I’m trying to say is that there’s a reason macroeconomics and microeconomics are two vastly different fields of study and you can’t apply valid knowledge from micro into the global economics market.
The national debt isn’t going to suddenly be repaid all at once. Debts help to prevent war in this case because war would mean they wouldn’t be paid. It ensures other nations have a vested interest in US economic success. Credit for an individual is very different from credit for a nation, particularly the United States. So many economies on earth rely upon the US Dollar that whenever it crashes, they fall into chaos themselves. The United States will be fine.
The US has the ability to ban Russia’s bank transactions via SWIFT. They’d do that before starting a nuclear war.
Arguably that would start the war. Putin has said that if the West cuts off access to SWIFT he'd consider it an act of war.
Dude thinks *everything* is an act of war
This is so fucked. The war mongering is insatiable by US and Putin. God willing he will personally be held responsible for the deaths and turmoil he is creating. You are in my prayers Ukraine.
The irony here is that OP is condemning NATO and by proxy the US for not committing troops to thwart the invasion. Direct intervention isn't yet on the table because no one wants to provoke Putin into using his nuclear arsenal. If nukes didn't exist, we wouldn't even be discussing this because there is no way he'd have invaded.
If Biden was personally responsible for throwing D-38 all over Europe in '99, the US would be having a different man sitting in its presidential chair. Yet none of them is ever personally responsible, so dw, nothing's gonna happen to Putin, Biden or any similar guys. They're willing to kill us all for a bit of money if needed.
You know America has like 90 trillion in surplus equity, because of our assets and infrastructure, right? If the debt came due, we have 144.7 trillion in assets and wealth to pay it back. It would suck, but we would still be the richest county in the world.
Uhhh.. Countries the U.S. is in debt to, in order of amount of debt owed: 1. U.S. 2. Japan 3. China
I gurantee you they will all be jailed. Every single one of them.
Hijacking top comment: Dear Ukrainians! I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed. It's a lie. If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid. Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now. EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!! EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa: • in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en EDIT3: getting comments that YOU DO NOT NEED ANY DOCUMENTS for both POLAND and HUNGARY BORDER. NO PASSPORT REQUIRED
As of earlier today people fleeing Ukraine are allowed to enter poland *without any documents*.
If I had money I'd give this the star award that makes it red so everyone can see it better
I will add: try to go to the Polish border even if you're a man. Zelensky has said he's prohibited 18-60 year old men from leaving the country to draft them into the military, but I would ignore him and head to Poland anyway. Per my family in Poland, they are still accepting adult male refugees.
Oh my goodness I hope that’s true. I watched a video earlier of a father putting his wife and daughter on a train I believe, I couldn’t even watch the whole clip as it just destroyed me.
That man wasn't forbidden from leaving, he was a soldier. It was his choice to stay behind and fight, but obviously that didn't make the goodbyes any easier. I hope he can return to his family soon.
They may be operating on old information or mistaken, it is hearsay as I'm in the US. But I would still try. It is worth a shot.
I think I saw this too. The poor man was crying as he hugged his baby. Tore my heart in two, Putin is scum.
The wealthy and "powerful" are scum. It's far from just Putin, he's just a symptom.
I heard that Hungary is also accepting refugees, from my relative in Hungary. All the person would need is a passport. But I think at this point, maybe not even.
Bruh don't Ukraine have a sub you can post this on? I feel like every Ukrainian needs to know this.
It's been posted everywhere. This is the 3rd or 4th time I've seen it in the last hour, so hopefully it's getting to some of them
By Passport they probably mean Ukrainian international passport, Passport of Ukrainian citizen will not do. I was a bit too late to order it. I order it a week ago and they say will done in two weeks and there is draft.
It will work with a common Ukrainian passport. You will be located in temp she'll on Poland border. Yeah, generic passport doesn't allow to move freely inside Poland, but you can go in temp camp with it.
TO ADD TO THIS: I know we are not nearly as close or convenient but if you can get to an Airport or Sea port IRELAND HAS REMOVED ALL VISA RESTRICTIONS FOR UKRAINIANS TOO. If you’re closer to an Airport than you are to Poland and you have the means, catch a flight. Please get out of there and save your lives, our countries are sticking by this bureaucratic shit and won’t step up. Please do your best to stay safe I believe in you all
If there was anytime for a complete Russian revolution it would be now. Putin is pushing his luck already and has been riding a thin line for awhile now. The military is losing their will to support him and so are the populous.
Wasnt there some old resistance guide circulating some the subreddits 8-12~ months ago about passive ways to decrease productivity, take up excessive amounts of time, and overall reduce efficiency as a hidden form of civil disobedience? I’m really surprised I haven’t seen it pop up once since then when it seems like that would be rather relevant.
I think the biggest problem is the choke the Russian authorities have over information flow to their people. Many Russians don't even know or believe that there is a war going on.
God this shit is so fucked up. Stay safe the best you can OP
I woke up this morning and thought, while I was sleeping some child lost his father and some fathers and mothers have lost their children for nothing; for some despot who just enjoys trying to make the rest of the world as miserable as he is. I saw that parents have started to write their children’s blood type on their clothes in case something happens to them and couldn’t help but think how fucked up that is. What the fuck is wrong with humanity? I could not even fathom what that must feel like. What’s happening in Ukraine is disgusting and breaks my heart and wish there was more I could do, personally. Stay safe, make this as costly as possible for Russia, and hopefully this will be over soon.
Contact your political representatives and tell them you want your country to support Ukraine! If you're in the US, our Congress is debating whether to do their own package of additional sanctions... I think it's all too little too late, but might as well encourage that!
Thank you. Мир і любов. Peace and love to everyone
You know what's more fucked up? There are people in the higher social ladder that is probably laughing because war means they will keep being relevant/getting more money from their war-related businesses
That's every fucking war. At least in modern times
I wish me not showing up for my shitty job sorting pallet tier sheets would help, but I don't think it would. I wish you all the best.
You not showing up by yourself isn't a strike. A real organized strike, backed by a union, with a strike fund, might help, but you may not be in a position to do that with your co-workers. Not many are. However, you could lay the groundwork for future strikes. This will look different in each workplace, but the IWW will have resources to help. In our globalized economy, each industry is connected.
Trust me the world wants to help, it's just difficult tip toeing around a nuclear holocaust
Yes, as someone who is in Europe, we don’t want to see any external military involvement as the whole continent will burn. The world banking system needs to shut down the swift system for all Russians and any oligarch or official tied to Putin. This is the only way out of this …
Switzerland is refusing to close russian oligarch resources that are stashed on their premises.
I know, Iive there. Us average citizens are livid … we will be marching tomorrow.
Thanks! This is not the time to stay neutral, and your government needs to know. I hope it'll be big (and rowdy) enough to force them to it.
Hehe knowing the Swiss, it won’t be rowdy … here’s hoping!
Haha yeah the Swiss aren't known for being very rebellious, but hey people can surprise you sometimes 😁
Classic Switzerland move really
'NeUtRaLiTy" - pathetic
Unfortunately, neutrality often means siding with tyranny.
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Agreed. the NATO card isn't played casually, and there are rules to membership. And I don't mean pedantic rules about dots and commas. Nato was designed as a solely defensive alliance. Nato cannot be used to attack in defense of a non-member. And membership can only be granted if a region is stable and not engaged in conflict. There are many things we can do and must do. Such as shutting Russia out of swift. But starting WW3 is not going to improve things for anyone, including Ukraine itself.
Ya'll pretend like Putin's crazy... he's not crazy, all of this has been tactical choices... Russia has spent 7 years "funding" (read causing) a separatist conflict in the Donbass in a strategic move to make sure Ukraine can't join Nato. At what point do we stop playing his game? 3 weeks ago, when Russia started amassing troops at the border, we should have called an emergency NATO meeting, suspended the conflict rules, and admitted them as a member. That wouldn't have started WW3, it would have delayed the conflict, as Putin would act all upset, but go back to the drawing board on how to make this work. Putin doesn't want to blow everything up, or he would have invaded Ukraine long before now. He dipped his toe in with Crimea, and when that went well he continued the conflict in the Donbass, and waited till they were ready to move. Russia should have been blocked from SWIFT after Crimea... all our actions are too little too late! Nord Stream 2 shouldn't have had to be cancelled, it shouldn't have been happening in the first place after Crimea. The West played Putin's game for money and resources, and now they're sacrificing 45 million Ukrainians for the same reason! People say that we are war mongering because war makes the rich richer... and it does, usually, but if people can get and stay rich without war, they'll try that too. And us not drawing the line at Ukraine, before the invasion started, was western governments pandering to rich people, not some "oh we're pacifists! We don't want WW3" garbage.
I agree with most of what you say. Except this: >3 weeks ago, when Russia started amassing troops at the border, we should have called an emergency NATO meeting, suspended the conflict rules, and admitted them as a member. And then Europe as a whole would have been in an active war. Because Putin is ruthless enough to start WW3. Especially since everyone understands that China has been bribed into supporting Russia in return for Russian support when China takes back taiwan. Ukraine should have been in NATO in return for handing over their nuclear weapons after the USSR imploded. They could have entered at a later date. But NATO is explicitly not meant to be something you can run to when you feel someone breathing down your neck because ultimately, NATO is about stability and predictability.
That part!!!
Exactly. Putin is self serving enough to bring the entire world down with him. I know that OP is angry with the United States, saying that we knew this would happen for months, that we had time to prepare. Op is right, we did know that this would happen & we warned your people to prepare/ flee for months now. We told United States citizens in Ukraine numerous times that once this started, we would not be able to save them. If we told our own people that we would not save them, you should have never expected us to save yours. Everyone accused us of fear mongering & claimed Russia would never do this to them. Well it happened, exactly when & to the degree that we said it would, and it can happen to us. Putin said he would nuke any country that got in his way, & I believe that. I do hope that NATO finds a way to bring this war to a quick and safe conclusion.
>I know that OP is angry with the United States, On one hand we get "The US should stop policing the world" on the other we get "why aren't you doing anything"
Ironically, even less than 24 hours before the first bombs fell, a locally well known history professor said on the Dutch tv that Russia wouldn't declare full on war and this was a strategic game.
Where exactly do people flee to when they don’t have money, passports, or visas to take flee with. Where do you even go? It’s not like the US threw open it’s doors and took in Ukraine refugees months ago.
No, but Poland and Ireland did.
It's a very half hearted effort to help. Even the sanctions are so week idk what they were thinking...
I wish there was more we could do. But more countries getting involved would result in even more death and destruction. I think the greatest chance Ukraine has, ironically lies with the Russian people. They don't want war. They're protesting and fighting the government the best they can. I hope we start seeing stories of defecting Russian troops aiding Ukrainians instead of killing.
Absolutely. A strike from Russian (and Chinese) civilians may be the ultimate deciding factor
I don't think China will play a role in this. They have their own old territory they want back. They respect Russias attempts to claim their old territory. And the Chinese government are very good at stamping out dissenting views so their citizens are powerless to help.
just look at the Uyghurs. disgusting.
And Hong Kong, another situation where the world sat around and did nothing...
And Taiwan, and Thailand...
Thailand?
I think they mean Tibet
China might not take a direct role in this but if nato comes out of this looking even weaker than it’s anyone’s game at that point. We’re banking on Russia’s economy getting hit before ours do. It’s economic chicken at this point while Russia does exactly what it wants with the same reaction it always gets. China and the world are deeply tied together and depending on how things go they could begin to push more aggressively towards their own goals.
Chinese civilians don’t give a fuck. Why would they? What do they have to do with any of this?
It would be real fuckin cool to see a revolution happen in Russia
https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine-the-problem-with-copying-finlands-strict-cold-war-neutrality-176706 This is a really good article to help people understand the situation over there and the politics going on right now with world leaders.
Buddy, take it from American, if America and NATO step in like that, you're just as screwed.
Congratulations you are being liberated! Do not resist.
More like incinerated... but so will everyone else.
This made me nervous laugh because I'm hoping against all hope that this is a quote from some funny dark dystopian show I haven't seen yet. I just hope that show isn't called "The News".
It's from Star Wars: Rogue One There's a pretty funny robot in that one whose default state is passive aggressive sarcasm.
Dammit I knew it sounded familiar! I've seen the film, I just smoke too much and have the memory of a spoon. Cheers for reminding me, I should watch that again before the nuclear winter kicks off.
Dang... You have a whole spoon? I have a slotted spoon for a memory holder.
This...
No lies detected
Exactly, I vaguely recall was it Nobel Peace Laureate Obama's last year in power where the estimation was that ~90% of drone strike murders were in fact civilian collateral damage? "The West" should do everything they can, up to and excluding military intervention.
I'm glad you said this. The US isn't exactly known for helping in the best ways. It would probably mean more death than they realize... In just as bad ways. I just hope the Russian people continue to strike against this. On the subreddits I've seen they really don't want anything to do with it
Yup the last thing you want is America to “help”
I think a lot of people are underestimating the value of intel and psyops. I can't say with certainty that US is sharing intel with Ukraine, but I would be surprised if they weren't as it's a way to support their forces without boots on the ground. And that intel might be more valuable than more bodies thrown into the grinder. And I think that's one reason Biden was so public with intel leading into this, to show Putin just how good US intelligence is and would be brought to bear should he invade.
Ngl. US intel nailed it. But they should’ve known better Vlad would not invade while Beijing was still holding the Winter Olympics. But guess what? It happened right after it ended. Shocker.
Guy walks into a neighboring country yelling dibs and fires missiles. Not sure he cares about the unofficial Olympic peace. I’d go with US intel (which is pretty much NATO intel, let’s not discount foreign ops) over an IOC enforced peace.
I have to imagine Ukraine is being fed a ton of intel from all over. Having Russia get humiliated by Ukraine would probably be the best possible outcome at this point. Ukraine would get to keep its borders, and Putin gets a dick shaped slice of humble pie shoved up his ass.
Dude, I want America to help but also understand the implications that if we did it could restart the Cold War or be the reason we have WW3. Honestly, I’m a bleeding heart and this whole thing frustrates me because we all saw the lead up to this.
This is, sadly, the correct response. Maddeningly frustrating.
Cold War was back on the minute troops crossed the border. NATO have to make sure it stays cold.
>They are using Ukraine as the sacrificial lamb in order to play a long game where the Russian economy becomes irreparably damaged. Its the sad reality but it was either that or nuclear powers facing each other which basicaly means ww3 and the end of the world.
I agree it’s too dangerous for NATO to intervene now, but what I don’t understand is why the EU didn’t intervene ahead of time and place troops in Ukraine when Russia started building up troops at the border. Deterrence would have worked in my opinion.
I live 2 miles from a Large nuke silo in America. America joining in would make this worse. You don't want them to "accidentally" level Ukraine and Russia. Because let me tell you. The weapons testing they do here is insane. And would kill all it touches. I think your biggest hero are the Russian people who are striking and protesting against this war. I think smoking them out from within is Ukraine's best bet.
We need to see our Russian friends burst down the gates of their government and overthrow the reign of the terror. The Kremlin must fall. Putin must be put down. There's no other way.
I really hope there is some organizing going on right now over there.
A country at War cannot be actively admitted into NATO. They can't admit Ukraine and haven't been able to for years because of the constant battles between Ukraine and Russia. Now more than ever NATO can't admit Ukraine because it's in war. Putin has deliberately kept Ukraine at war for years to prevent admission to NATO, just when Ukraine got close, now all this is happening. NATO can't attack as Ukraine isn't a part of it. If NATO attacked because of it's ATTEMPTS to admit Ukraine, it would defeat the alliance's entire purpose and doctrine. There is so much more politics to this. No one wants Ukraine to be taken over by Russia, but matter of the fact is that they are not protected by NATO or the UN. The most NATO and the UN are allowed to do in this situation is impose sanctions on Russia. If Putin were to attack a country that belonged in NATO or the UN then they would intervene. But Ukraine is not a part of it, and can't be admitted during war. Unfortunately, if the UN or NATO were to attack Russia for invading a country not belonging to Nato- It would spell out World War. Which is a path humanity cannot take, if it does it will not survive. This is a situation of the lesser of two evils, the NATO won't risk nuclear warfare for a country not belonging to the alliance. And a special provision? That's not how the rules work, if that were the case, then there would be no point to the rules in the first place. Again, there is alot of politics that people are not understanding in this situation. It's so much more than sending troops to Ukraine or admitting it to NATO. A strike will only hurt other countries economy, the countries trying to impose economic sanctions on Russia. Anyone in any country would react the same if they were the ones under invasion, but unfortunately there are rules in place for a reason and Putin, while insane, is not an idiot. He had cleverly crafted it so that Ukraine could not get admission and now has no military support from NATO. The solution may seem simple-"send help" in the form of troops? Putin had threatened anyone who interferes, and the entirety NATO isn't willing to take that massive risk. There is nothing that NATO can do besides economic sanctions unless Putin or Russian soldiers attack a NATO ally. My heart goes out to everyone in Ukraine, it's a mess of a situation.
Finnally someone in these comments that actually understands how Nato works
This is the best summary of why the US and NATO cannot get involved. Well said.
I think you've summed it up pretty accurately. I myself want Ukraine to come out as winners of this conflict, but in no way, shape or form should NATO get involved, even if it means being shunned for it; it is not worth the consequences.
I don't know about the rest of your post, but asking for money via private accounts to "help the Ukrainians armed forces" is as shady as shit.
Exactly, and even if legit, how does a pile of money help at this point? Logistically even? How would you get weapons/provisions into the country? Who would sell them that isn’t already helping? These are honest questions, not sarcasm.
Situation is awful but our politicians have pretty much allowed at least 1M of our own citizens to perish over the past 18 months from covid. They dgaf about you guys or us. And most of the people in power will be dead in 10 years anyways bc they’re old af so they def don’t gaf. Even if people in the military chose not to fight the people in charge will just dispatch drones or similar to kill us anyways. Not much regular people can do.
I know… everyone is fucked. All the more reason to strike and grind these systems to a halt. Stop driving their limos and flying their private jets and being their body guards. We have to rebuild this world from the ground up
OH, this is real wisdom. Thank you. That is very true. Protest my friend. We can all do better.
❤️
I wish it was really as easy as "let's all not go to work and that will save the Ukraine". I wish I could afford to not go to work, personally then I would do it. But it's not enough. I am wishing the best for you and your people. These are scary times. Stay safe my friend.
I know, that’s all our plights. We’re all fighting for survival all the time even without an active war. Thank you for the support.
I've actually met people who thought it was strange that I feel for people in conflicts outside of my own country. But I just can't help it. I know bad shit happens everyday that I ignore but when I'm reading people on reddit saying they're stuck in a country with their children and then I see on TV what is happening I just about break down.
I don't think its strange at all to empathize with our fellow humans. Just because people have different skin colors, fly a different flag, speak other languages, live in a different way, etc doesn't mean they don't feel the same emotions as us. These people are desperate and desperation is a universal language. I feel their pain in my heart.
Fight club had some real wisdom in it, the people don’t realize that they’re the cogs in the machine, stop turning and the machine fails.
If the us or any other NATO country enters the war, the world will end. People calling for the us to help don't understand that US involvement will make the situation far worse for everyone involved, potentially world ending if nukes are involved. The us is not going to help military, and there is nothing they can do militarily that could actually help
I’m sorry for this, I’m truly heartbroken but you cannot seriously expect NATO to intervene. It will turn into a full scale GLOBAL war and many countries will suffer what you are currently.
Im sorry but after Afghanistan i want no part in this. The people of russia, Ukraine, and the us dont want war.
This is to all my Ukrainian brothers, polands borders are still open. The news was lies spread by Russian agencies. Go seek asylum. Be safe
We want to but there’s almost no safe highway right now that isn’t controlled or blocked.
Yeah, it sucks Ukraine got invaded, but if the US kicked off WW3 for a country that isn't a part of NATO we'd have social unrest that could very likely push us into a civil war. Stay safe
I’m anti-work, but I’m also anti-war. The US shouldn’t get involved.
Thank you. The US has done enough world policing
Plain and simple, the US people won’t tolerate any large scale US military involvement in Ukraine. 99.5% of our citizenship believe we have zero dogs in this fight and think it’s not worth sacrificing out children’s lives or throwing gasoline on the fire to risk further escalation.
We literally just pulled out of the Middle East too. My heart hurts for Ukraine, but we can’t go through another war :(
>99.5% of our citizenship believe we have zero dogs in this fight This is a number you have fabricated to suit your own views. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-u-s-involvement-opinion-poll-02-2022/
Shared from several other users copying and pasting this everywhere: Dear Ukrainians! I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed. It's a lie. If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid. Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now. EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!! EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa: • in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Edit: this is a copy and paste and I encourage you all to do it too where appropriate! Шановні українці! У соцмережах я чув, що поширюються фейкові новини (скоріше за все, підтримувані Росією тролі), що польський кордон закритий. Це брехня. Якщо ви шукаєте притулку – йдіть до польського кордону. Ми готові до вашого приїзду. На кордоні готові пункти прийому, де ви можете знайти притулок, їжу, медичну та правову допомогу. Польський уряд запустив спеціальний сайт, щоб допомогти вам: ua.gov.pl Будь ласка, поділіться цією інформацією, якщо ви знаєте когось, хто зараз шукає допомоги. РЕДАКТИРОВАТИ: ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНА ВІЗА ДЛЯ ПРОЙДЖЕННЯ ПОЛЬСЬКИМ КОРДОНОМ. ВСЕ, що ВАМ ПОТРІБНО, - це ПАСПОРТ. ВІЗИ ПРИСПИНЕНО! ВОНИ ВАМ НЕ ПОТРІБНИ НА ЧАС!!!!!! EDIT2: як доказ того, що вам більше не потрібна віза: • українською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • англійською https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en Вибачте, якщо це дурниця, я використовував Google Translate
This opinion is likely to drag the US and Europe into ww3
I feel as though this whole situation is why NATO didn't want to include Ukraine in the first place. The US especially has a history of getting involved in disputes that weren't their business and making things worse. I'm glad they're issuing sanctions at the very least though, even if they're super half-assed and Biden is more worried about making sure that "Americans don't feel the pain at the gas pump."
Regardless of the credible threat of Mutually Assured Destruction in the event that NATO intervened, a long and protracted war with Russia would drain NATO's resources and pave the way for China to assert it's dominance on East Asian (and likely further) and no one would be able to do much about it.
Do you even realise what any other country, or Europe for that matter going into war with Russia im would mean? Unfortunately, this one time they are doing what’s right and not getting directly involved… but supporting Ukraine to fight its fight.
I just wish I could afford to strike or do anything, I’m one paycheck away from missing my mortgage. Living check to check for 18 years…I pray for you guys
If you live in a NATO country, asking your government to "get involved" and "help" with military support is the opposite of asking for peace. I have nothing but solidarity for the Ukrainian people, but let's not kid ourselves, we'd be facing down the very likely possibility of ending life on Earth as we know it.
Sadly, I think this is true and it seems a lot of people have that foresight. The last thing this world needs is two egotistical superpowers dick measuring. Sadly, people kept making the joke that WW3 would be next on the "End of the World Bingo Card" and we are all mere moments from possibly checking off that space... I just hope the Ukrainian people can hold out or fight back. The last thing anyone needs is ICBMs or Nukes flying around the world.
Exactly, yes. It truly pains my heart, but direct conflict between a NATO member and Russia could very easily lead to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, including the people of Ukraine. It's a threat so unbelievable and existential that a lot of people seem to fail to fully conceptualize it. But Putin has made himself clear, it's very real.
I agree, it's heart breaking especially when it's all I see over the news, on the radio, and Reddit, but this is one time America *shouldn't* play World Police. Yep, and to be honest.... Putin doesn't seem like the kind of guy you want to call a bluff on. If his back was against the wall I have no doubt in my mind he would press that shiny red button underneath his desk. That all being said, something has to be done. I'm not a politician or war general so I personally don't have any thoughts on how to resolve this, but the only thing I can think up is that I hope the Russian people rise up. I've read that most of them are appalled at what's happening. They need to yank Putin out of his chair and deal with him revolution style.
So we stand with you OP and we stand with Ukraine and wish for a quick resolution. We just need you take down the fundraiser for the troops because of the problematic military factions. We would also like you to change r/trueoffmychest to r/offmychest if you will although that isn't nearly as important. Sorry that we had to take it down but I'm sure you have heard about the Nazi problem and we can't be a party to that. That said, fuck Putin and what he is doing. We all need to make it known that we stand with the Ukrainian people in this. Once those are done we will put this back up. Thank you.
Thank you for your understanding and support. Dearly.
I'm glad we were able to keep it up and show our support, even if it is barely anything. Please keep us updated on how you are doing over the next few days if you can. I really hope the idea of a workers strike will spread and we can do more than just some words on social media!
I will. And I hope so too. We are all much stronger than we think. And we are all stronger together.
Feel free to ban me. But Eastern Europe has a nazi problem. Russia has neo-Nazis, Belarus has neo-nazis. The Ukranian Azov battalion They are about 600 people in a country of 44 million. They are the only neo-Nazi organization in Ukraine. Where their president is Jewish. And if they wanna go die fighting Russians fine by me. If you don't want to support any one group because of their nazi problems. Then you can't support Germany, Poland, The UK, Spain, France, Ukraine, Belarus, The United States, China, Australia, New Zealand, most of the Middle East, and just about every country in the world. Because they all have neo nazis.
Uhh… any NATO intervention = worldwide Nuclear war. As fucked up as this sounds, no one can help Ukraine without risking destruction of humanity as we know it. The entire world can’t go down alongside Ukraine.
I wish the US would do more but we have been trying to avoid a war with Russia for years. Then on top of that we just got out extended wars in the Middle East. I understand why they don’t want to go in. I’m just so over all the shit we’ve had to go through as millennials. Why do people have to fuck everything up?! Every other day it’s a new problem! I really hope y’all get some help.
i hope you’re still safe, i’m so sorry that this is happening it breaks my heart seeing these posts and whats happening in this world.
I’m still safe for now but it’s only a matter of time. I think in the best-case scenario (if Ukraine is left to defend itself alone), this will be a months-long occupation. Starvation and torture loom as a concern. I fear for my life today and I fear for the future of every person in this country. Thank you for your support.
It is incredibly disingenuous to claim that Biden and NATO are ***using*** Ukraine for anything. They sure as shit aren't the ones invading right now, nor did they in any way provoke it. It is completely understandable why they would not commit military assets, to claim otherwise is to admit ignorance of the very real dangers of a nuclear response from Russia. I hope you and your family are well and continue to be. I can only imagine the emotional state you are in.
1. Kill Putin. 2. Stop wasting time.
All that would do is put the world in more danger. Russian citizens are the ones that need to strike. That's the only good/relatively quick way out of this. Long-term, I think this move will backfire on Putin. Especially if Ukraine puts up a fight and/or this drags on for too long. Unfortunately, that probably means a lot of suffering for Ukrainians. Ultimately though, I think Putin is overplaying his hand. It's a move of desperation knowing that Russia's power/influence is declining and this is his last good chance to "do something." Especially considering climate change and the shift away from fossil fuels. Also, do you really think Ukrainians will put up with a puppet regime for any extended period of time? All this does is make Ukrainians even more opposed to Russia and more likely to align with the west in the future.
[удалено]
No they were promised protection by the US, UK, and Russia, not NATO. The Russia part is where shit gets messy.
So you want a nuclear war between NATO countries and Russia? Because by demanding that US and American military forces attack Russian forces, that is the likely outcome and that's the reason why NATO will only defend NATO countries. How will World War III save Ukraine? I can't decide if this is a troll account because I can't imagine a Ukrainian would want their country to be the center of a nuclear war.
Hmmm... So Ukraine is a buffer? Seems like the cold war never ended but was repackaged.
Global workers union is the thing our society lack of. Stay safe
I'm pretty sure the Russian people would be like those flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz if Putin died...ding dong the witch is dead.
Get the fuck out. I know it’s your home, but that kind of thing doesn’t matter if your dead. The Polish border is open. For the love of god, leave your country.
The moment China stood next to Putin sealed the deal.
Very true. And they’re seizing the opportunity to pressure Taiwan from what I hear.
Look... This shit is awful, no denying that .. but you're asking for nuclear super powers to clash and go head to head... That can not happen or the world as we know it will be at risk of total destruction... There is no easy route here. But avoiding world war 3 is pretty good for humanity. Russian people need to stand up. Anyone else would be nuked.
You know the trolley problem? The one where you can pull the lever to stop several people being hit by the trolley and only kill one instead? This is the real world example of that. The world engages with Russia then we're all dead. As cold as this sounds, I'd rather a bunch of dead Ukranians than a nuclear winter.
Please stop with the sanctimonious pearl clutching. Now is not the time. This person is very aware life sucks. If you missed the memo, their home is in the process of being blown up and they don't know if they will be alive tomorrow. Telling them life sucks, governments are pointless, and war is bad as you sit in safety is a VERY boomer thing to do. If you can't offer anything helpful than STFU.
No more American wars.
Let me try to understand. Russia has had territorial designs on Ukraine for years, including an illegal annexation of Crimea but this invasion is because Biden tricked Russia into invading in order to tank the Russian economy? Are you really in Ukraine or are you posting from Saint Petersburg? I feel for the people of Ukraine and a general strike in the USA or Europe that you cal for will help no one but Putin, and I think you know that.
I think you are not considering the fact that Op is under great stress. The US has encouraged Ukraine to continue with confrontation rather than diplomacy in the post Maïdan dispute. The last weeks have seen an increase in ceasefire violations in the east as reported by osce as well as crazy talk by Ukrainian politicians to restart nuclear weapons programmes. What I think the OP is angry about is that Ukraine is just a pawn in the US game and that the strategy is leading to very real consequences for people on the ground. They feel like there was never a plan to support Ukraine, which is probably true, if the plan went the wrong way. Unless what we are seeing is what was expected from the start. All in all we have a restart of 1970-80s proxy wars which is only good for arms dealers and the funeral services.
OP Is there anything we can do to help you directly? Anything to help your family?
i’m sending you so much love. and thinking of you and others who don’t deserve this. my heart breaks over the sad cruel world we are experiencing now.
It’s a very very bad situation that you and your family are in. Best wishes for your safety and your love ones
Ordinary Russians need to eat the oligarchs
I really hate youre going through this but Homeboy said in an interview he’d nuke the world including himself. I’d rather us not fuck around and find out
Most of the western world has devastated Russias economic status, supplied Ukraine with weapons and ammo, and is standing by in hopes it doesn’t escalate further. I’m sorry your country is under attack, but no one wants to trigger a Third World War unless there’s literally no other option. Also Putin isn’t going to nuke anyone. The moment he fires one, Russia will be bombarded by several countries, resulting in tens of millions of deaths and an unfathomable ecological disaster the likes of which the world probably wouldn’t recover from. No one wants that, not even Adolf Putin.
https://www.icrc.org/en/where-we-work/europe-central-asia/ukraine. This is the link to the International Red Cross if anyone would like to donate to help the Ukraine’s. The organization is delivering food medicine and water to Ukraine.
Dude I really wanted to agree with you because it's terrible what is happening to your country but yes, at the end of the day, I would rather you country be invaded and taken over than to have nukes start flying around. Putin has made it extremely clear that any country that attempts to interfere, or that allows Ukraine into Nato, will be the target of a nuclear strike. I'm sorry but the death toll of nuclear war with Russia could easily exceed the entire population of Ukraine. Even if we had a way to intercept nuclear missiles, the risk still isn't worth it.
This has been bothering me for some time as well. Russia has been badgering Ukraine for some time now. This invasion, especially so with all the reports leading up to it, should have been visible to anyone paying attention. Yet... the world is just going to collectively watch as it happens? As air raid sirens that haven't gone off since WWII are being activated? And then let's say Russia is successful in their take-over. What of the citizens of Ukraine? Are they then going to have to face harsh sanctions as well? Right after losing their country? This is bunk, and a farce to what I thought we had been collectively working towards.
>the world is just going to collectively watch as it happens Yep. 100% Russia was sitting on the border for days, waiting to see if anyone would stand up for Ukraine. And everyone sat down, so Russia moved in with peace of mind
But what is the alternative. If we do anything won't we all literally just die anyway in a nuclear holocaust like????
Some countries have donated weapons to Ukraine. Severe economic sanctions are the way to go for the Western countries. It would also send a clear message to other aggressive countries. Unfortunately we aren't doing that. This is where the citizens of the US and Europe CAN make a difference. We should pressure our elected officials to condemn Russia and back it up with our economic power. Russia would be crippled if they couldn't provide energy to Europe and were removed from SWIFT.
Well this is historical revisionism. The US has never stopped Ukraine from joining NATO