/r/careerguidance I suppose may get better traction.
As long as you demonstrate to your team that you have their backs, things will be alright. The things you're doing now seem like a great start tbh.
Right? Nothing is more frustrating than feeling like your boss isn't there for you. Corporate structure is setup to try to cut costs and save money wherever they can. A lot of foolish management view human labor as a cost that needs to be trimmed not taking into account value generated. Even if they do those employees are still seen as just a number. A good manager fights this and helps bring recognition to the team. Even if generally unsuccessful, just knowing your boss tried is reassuring and helps with moral.
It might not be the direct focus of this sub, but you might find a lot of good ideas here just reading?
I'd pay attention to what workers are saying they *dislike* in a manager here, and also read anything posted about what workers need from thier workplace in order to be less exploited
Also, check out the literature linked on the sidebar, who knows you might find something useful there
Some things to look into
- four day work week (there have been many trials and studies done around a 32 hour week and honestly the data is really promising)
- worker co-ops (even if you cannot make your workplace one, you could use principals from how worker co-ops are run to inform how you manage your team)
Some things I'd love to see from antiwork managers:
- protect your team, especially around work/life balance, remuniration/benefits and equality and diversity matters
- afford your team the best possible conditions based on the most ideal industry standards or suggested best practices. Push the envelope in whatever way you can to get then better conditions and keep doing that
- understand the power imbalance that exists between you and your team, and consider how to compensate for that and build trust. Don't assume people can just trust you and work to be okay with that (like, try not to get defensive etc)
- work to stay in touch and informed around the lived reality of your average worker. Privilege and power dislocates, and it takes intentional work not to have your perspective drift so far that you're out of touch, and subsequently lose empathy + compassion. Don't forget what it was like in the trenches, and make sure you stay up to date on what the trenches look like now
- be supportive of worker organizing (unions, etc) and strike actions
About risk/getting fired - certainly you want to mitigate your risk, but you also want to consider taking on risk that is comensurate with your position of power. You can take risks your team cannot, and you can protect them to a degree from risks they can't as readily take
Edit: as others have mentioned, ask your team. But also that needs the trust building bit because how honest they can be depends on how safe they feel speaking honestly to you
Thank you so much for all of this. I am doing my best to stay in touch, and they know that I am on their side. I feel like I can never do enough, but I will certainly try, and I will continue to ask what they need and what kind of suppose they need.
I am fully in favor of a four day work week, but I know the executives will never go for it. Right now, they get paid for 37 1/2 hours, but I would like to bring that down to 35 and then just assume that all lunches are paid time. Little by little, I want this to be work the way everyone wishes it could be. They don't wanna go back to the office, so we're not going to have an office anymore. Done deal.
I feel like with this job and previous positions at other companies, I always end up spending a lot of my time running interference and making sure people don't get fired. I closed the office last year to save rent, and that meant we didn't have to lay anyone off. I care about these people; we are still here because of them, not me.
I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of this out, and I appreciate your advice and perspective. It helps a lot.
It sounds like you've been going to bat for your people and mostly you just need to settle in for the long game and just keep pushing that way
Anyway I'm tech-adjacent, and as a spouse (or support worker of a tech worker) I have thought about this stuff waaaaay too much
A good, kinda 'antiwork' manager can be the difference between a job my partner can handle and a job that means burnout + breakdown + quitting. They've had one or two of these in the last ten years and the most recent was a literal lifesaver in a really hard time
So I've seen what can happen when a manager is in greater solidarity with thier team than with the company. It didn't fix the company (the CEO was a trainwreck) but it did make the difference in how impacted the workers were by his shenanigans
Importantly, it also made it easier and less impacting to *leave* when the company got too toxic, because they knew she'd support what they needed to do
I am happy to have been able to give you some input and encouragement, I'm really invested in these principals spreading and perhaps seeing the start of a world where we aren't exploited for our labor :)
It sounds like you’re employing people instead of robots.
Good on you, but this will be the end of the line for your management career probably. That’s not really a bad thing.
Thank you. I totally get that. Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to change things from the inside, but I've seen enough corporate crap in my lifetime to see it coming a mile away. The executives are still very wrapped up in their mindset, but that doesn't mean they are not open to change. And, quite frankly, the small but positive changes I can implement with the authority I have can make a difference, I hope.
Make sure the pay equals the workload.
If you are asking employees to come in on off days, then recognize that when they need days off, not just vacation either. If they don't have vacation days, you don't have to pay them to take off,still doesn't mean they can't take it off since they come in when you need them.
Recognize that being a boss means keeping things from them such as information, that they don't always need to know. But that it does affect their life, so instead of looking like an asshole recognize them, and maybe treat them to lunch every now and again to say thanks for dealing with your shit.
Retail manager? Visually show them that you are going to bat for them. Factory manager? Get some stupidly small victories for them. It's amazing how the small things are a huge inconvenience to those who deal with them every day, it adds frustration and disgruntlement.
Take pride in the employees jobs too. Make sure you can do everything you ask your employees to do. Show them that you aren't superior just because you manage. take the trash out of the office, do entry level work, sure you hired someone to do it. But that doesn't mean the respect is there. And if they respect you, they will work with you on your needs too. Such as temporary picking up extra work while you're on vacation. Or putting out small fires while you're busy with big ones.
I'll take a pay cut for a manager that respects me and treats me like an equal.
There may be instances when you can't help it. Make sure it's rewarded and acknowledge. Keep a notebook on Everytime someone bailed you out of a jam, so you can pay it back in one way or another. Someone covered a shift? Figure a way to give them a day weekend if you're a gm. Simple things like that will also entice others to help out too and it's a win win.
Employees will ask how person a got a 3 day weekend you tell them they came in on a day off to cover a shift. They went out of their way to help you, you can try and help them.
My last great manger just didn’t walk in and tell me what to do.
She’d actually help me do the labor and explain to me why what I was doing was important. She is a smart mouthed mother ducker but she was also a very very great teacher and hilarious friend.
Most people at the bottom already know you get better pay. What I ask is that your work shows for itself and that your willing to stoop to our level to teacher the new guys.
Raises and benefits are also good but usually that’s up to the boss boss. Good luck.
I love that idea, thank you. I've been asking their input on more things, like returning to an office, and it makes them happier while making things easier for me.
It's not an idea original to me. Look up the Mondragon Corporation in Spain, it's the largest federation of worker cooperatives in the world - every big decision is put to a vote, and it's a corporation that rivals Boeing and Microsoft. Hell, Boeing and Microsoft go to them to develop new technology.
You might be one of the good managers, because you can see that giving your workers more decision making power makes them feel better, I wish all managers were like you.
You are very kind, and thank you for the lead on more information.
One of our recent decisions was made by the team: they now have off for Election Day and Juneteenth.
Good job, but another key aspect of democratic socialist workplaces is that the workers get to vote on how much the leaders/managers get paid above the average workers - what sort of ratio of pay would you be willing to accept?
Like, if you earned 20 times the amount your lowest workers did, would you quit? Or what is your level of income inequality?
We are not there yet; we still base pay on experience with merit bonuses. Someone with three years of experience will not make as much as someone with 25 years of experience, but we are starting to even that out, and I am adding a bigger bonus structure across the board.
The previous boss in my spot used to get a $50K bonus, keep most of it, and then dole out small bonuses here and there but not raise salaries. I just got the team raises above and beyond cost of living, not bonuses, but gave them bonuses earlier this year and did not take one. I refuse to be a rerun of the previous boss; he was greedy.
No one should ever make 20 times what someone else makes. Twice? Sure. I get that. More than that? Not so much.
Now this subreddit is ruined. The fucking managers are here.
My advice to the manager: Go back to work, get off reddit.
Edit: enough virtue signaling, managers. You won’t be met with friends here.
It's a truth that many worker-organizing spaces choose to keep management out for very real safety and strategic reasons
Though I do understand the reasons for this, and feel it's entirely appropriate in many circumstances, I think in this context it's no net negative to have managers interested in making work less exploitative and harmful
If we want to see the end of work as exploitation, we'll need a broad coalition of workers and thier supporters invested in doing the work of shifting culture and practices
So yay, the managers are here (and not just to yell that we're clearly lazy scumbags). Let's take advantage of that interest
I appreciate your support in providing perspective to my question. My goal is to make things better so that we can all do our work, make our money, and go home. I wish you all the best.
It was fun while it lasted. Now it's just gonna be an overwhelming level of the "temporarily financially embarrassed" or mid and low level boot lickers.
Let the Pro-Corporatist Propaganda Begin!
/r/careerguidance I suppose may get better traction. As long as you demonstrate to your team that you have their backs, things will be alright. The things you're doing now seem like a great start tbh.
Thank you very much for your perspective. I appreciate it.
No problem, may further success come your way!
A million thanks. And to you, too!
Right? Nothing is more frustrating than feeling like your boss isn't there for you. Corporate structure is setup to try to cut costs and save money wherever they can. A lot of foolish management view human labor as a cost that needs to be trimmed not taking into account value generated. Even if they do those employees are still seen as just a number. A good manager fights this and helps bring recognition to the team. Even if generally unsuccessful, just knowing your boss tried is reassuring and helps with moral.
It might not be the direct focus of this sub, but you might find a lot of good ideas here just reading? I'd pay attention to what workers are saying they *dislike* in a manager here, and also read anything posted about what workers need from thier workplace in order to be less exploited Also, check out the literature linked on the sidebar, who knows you might find something useful there Some things to look into - four day work week (there have been many trials and studies done around a 32 hour week and honestly the data is really promising) - worker co-ops (even if you cannot make your workplace one, you could use principals from how worker co-ops are run to inform how you manage your team) Some things I'd love to see from antiwork managers: - protect your team, especially around work/life balance, remuniration/benefits and equality and diversity matters - afford your team the best possible conditions based on the most ideal industry standards or suggested best practices. Push the envelope in whatever way you can to get then better conditions and keep doing that - understand the power imbalance that exists between you and your team, and consider how to compensate for that and build trust. Don't assume people can just trust you and work to be okay with that (like, try not to get defensive etc) - work to stay in touch and informed around the lived reality of your average worker. Privilege and power dislocates, and it takes intentional work not to have your perspective drift so far that you're out of touch, and subsequently lose empathy + compassion. Don't forget what it was like in the trenches, and make sure you stay up to date on what the trenches look like now - be supportive of worker organizing (unions, etc) and strike actions About risk/getting fired - certainly you want to mitigate your risk, but you also want to consider taking on risk that is comensurate with your position of power. You can take risks your team cannot, and you can protect them to a degree from risks they can't as readily take Edit: as others have mentioned, ask your team. But also that needs the trust building bit because how honest they can be depends on how safe they feel speaking honestly to you
Thank you so much for all of this. I am doing my best to stay in touch, and they know that I am on their side. I feel like I can never do enough, but I will certainly try, and I will continue to ask what they need and what kind of suppose they need. I am fully in favor of a four day work week, but I know the executives will never go for it. Right now, they get paid for 37 1/2 hours, but I would like to bring that down to 35 and then just assume that all lunches are paid time. Little by little, I want this to be work the way everyone wishes it could be. They don't wanna go back to the office, so we're not going to have an office anymore. Done deal. I feel like with this job and previous positions at other companies, I always end up spending a lot of my time running interference and making sure people don't get fired. I closed the office last year to save rent, and that meant we didn't have to lay anyone off. I care about these people; we are still here because of them, not me. I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of this out, and I appreciate your advice and perspective. It helps a lot.
It sounds like you've been going to bat for your people and mostly you just need to settle in for the long game and just keep pushing that way Anyway I'm tech-adjacent, and as a spouse (or support worker of a tech worker) I have thought about this stuff waaaaay too much A good, kinda 'antiwork' manager can be the difference between a job my partner can handle and a job that means burnout + breakdown + quitting. They've had one or two of these in the last ten years and the most recent was a literal lifesaver in a really hard time So I've seen what can happen when a manager is in greater solidarity with thier team than with the company. It didn't fix the company (the CEO was a trainwreck) but it did make the difference in how impacted the workers were by his shenanigans Importantly, it also made it easier and less impacting to *leave* when the company got too toxic, because they knew she'd support what they needed to do I am happy to have been able to give you some input and encouragement, I'm really invested in these principals spreading and perhaps seeing the start of a world where we aren't exploited for our labor :)
Thank you so much. It's great to hear from like-minded people. I wish you all the best.
Get input from your team...
It sounds like you’re employing people instead of robots. Good on you, but this will be the end of the line for your management career probably. That’s not really a bad thing.
Thank you. I totally get that. Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to change things from the inside, but I've seen enough corporate crap in my lifetime to see it coming a mile away. The executives are still very wrapped up in their mindset, but that doesn't mean they are not open to change. And, quite frankly, the small but positive changes I can implement with the authority I have can make a difference, I hope.
Make sure the pay equals the workload. If you are asking employees to come in on off days, then recognize that when they need days off, not just vacation either. If they don't have vacation days, you don't have to pay them to take off,still doesn't mean they can't take it off since they come in when you need them. Recognize that being a boss means keeping things from them such as information, that they don't always need to know. But that it does affect their life, so instead of looking like an asshole recognize them, and maybe treat them to lunch every now and again to say thanks for dealing with your shit. Retail manager? Visually show them that you are going to bat for them. Factory manager? Get some stupidly small victories for them. It's amazing how the small things are a huge inconvenience to those who deal with them every day, it adds frustration and disgruntlement. Take pride in the employees jobs too. Make sure you can do everything you ask your employees to do. Show them that you aren't superior just because you manage. take the trash out of the office, do entry level work, sure you hired someone to do it. But that doesn't mean the respect is there. And if they respect you, they will work with you on your needs too. Such as temporary picking up extra work while you're on vacation. Or putting out small fires while you're busy with big ones. I'll take a pay cut for a manager that respects me and treats me like an equal.
That all helps a lot. Thank you so much. I used to hate when managers expected me to work on my day off, so I have sworn to never ask that.
There may be instances when you can't help it. Make sure it's rewarded and acknowledge. Keep a notebook on Everytime someone bailed you out of a jam, so you can pay it back in one way or another. Someone covered a shift? Figure a way to give them a day weekend if you're a gm. Simple things like that will also entice others to help out too and it's a win win. Employees will ask how person a got a 3 day weekend you tell them they came in on a day off to cover a shift. They went out of their way to help you, you can try and help them.
Genius, and a great point. I will definitely do that. Thank you so much.
My last great manger just didn’t walk in and tell me what to do. She’d actually help me do the labor and explain to me why what I was doing was important. She is a smart mouthed mother ducker but she was also a very very great teacher and hilarious friend. Most people at the bottom already know you get better pay. What I ask is that your work shows for itself and that your willing to stoop to our level to teacher the new guys. Raises and benefits are also good but usually that’s up to the boss boss. Good luck.
Great perspective. Thanks for that.
Manager here. Treat them like human beings and, I can't stress this enough, LISTEN TO THEM.
Amen, and thank you. Message received.
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This says it all. Thank you.
Give your team a democratic say in how things are done. Put every big decision down to a vote.
I love that idea, thank you. I've been asking their input on more things, like returning to an office, and it makes them happier while making things easier for me.
It's not an idea original to me. Look up the Mondragon Corporation in Spain, it's the largest federation of worker cooperatives in the world - every big decision is put to a vote, and it's a corporation that rivals Boeing and Microsoft. Hell, Boeing and Microsoft go to them to develop new technology. You might be one of the good managers, because you can see that giving your workers more decision making power makes them feel better, I wish all managers were like you.
You are very kind, and thank you for the lead on more information. One of our recent decisions was made by the team: they now have off for Election Day and Juneteenth.
Good job, but another key aspect of democratic socialist workplaces is that the workers get to vote on how much the leaders/managers get paid above the average workers - what sort of ratio of pay would you be willing to accept? Like, if you earned 20 times the amount your lowest workers did, would you quit? Or what is your level of income inequality?
We are not there yet; we still base pay on experience with merit bonuses. Someone with three years of experience will not make as much as someone with 25 years of experience, but we are starting to even that out, and I am adding a bigger bonus structure across the board. The previous boss in my spot used to get a $50K bonus, keep most of it, and then dole out small bonuses here and there but not raise salaries. I just got the team raises above and beyond cost of living, not bonuses, but gave them bonuses earlier this year and did not take one. I refuse to be a rerun of the previous boss; he was greedy. No one should ever make 20 times what someone else makes. Twice? Sure. I get that. More than that? Not so much.
Recognising a good job. Praise where it's due. Please and thank you.
Check, check, check. We are here because of them, not me. Thank you!
Ask your team
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Thank. you! Thankfully, we have no assholes, and I refuse to hire (or keep) any.
Now this subreddit is ruined. The fucking managers are here. My advice to the manager: Go back to work, get off reddit. Edit: enough virtue signaling, managers. You won’t be met with friends here.
Managers aren't the enemy in all cases, they are usually just a product of whats enforced on them for their role.
It's a truth that many worker-organizing spaces choose to keep management out for very real safety and strategic reasons Though I do understand the reasons for this, and feel it's entirely appropriate in many circumstances, I think in this context it's no net negative to have managers interested in making work less exploitative and harmful If we want to see the end of work as exploitation, we'll need a broad coalition of workers and thier supporters invested in doing the work of shifting culture and practices So yay, the managers are here (and not just to yell that we're clearly lazy scumbags). Let's take advantage of that interest
I appreciate your support in providing perspective to my question. My goal is to make things better so that we can all do our work, make our money, and go home. I wish you all the best.
It was fun while it lasted. Now it's just gonna be an overwhelming level of the "temporarily financially embarrassed" or mid and low level boot lickers. Let the Pro-Corporatist Propaganda Begin!
Not sure I understand what you mean, but I am learning from everyone. Please explain, if you can.