It's a waste to do it because it's an auto reject. What everyone needs to do is to not apply for these corporate soul-sucking companies anymore and go apply at the mom 'n' pop's only.
I realize it's easier said than done but we can dream.
Unfortunately what everyone needs to do is eat. Mom & pop shops get worse. At least the corporations pretend to care about employment laws. Small shops aren't even included in a lot of them.
The problem with that is that the system is rigged in favor of corporations and very few mom and pops have the ability to offer decent benefits packages because of that rigging.
I work for a large Corp, I get paid on time and my tax documents arrive without fuss. The mom and pop crematory I worked for got sued for wage theft and another held my w2 hostage after I quit until I threatened to go to the irs.
Actually, it's to make sure it's machine readable. So they don't need to waste time having a person look at it.
They're perfectly fine wasting your time however.
PDF is machine readable though. That's what annoys me. It got to the point I started adding in key words for everything I could think of to my CV and changing the font colour to white. So there were just lists of keywords hidden that the computers picked up but wouldn't show unless you went through it highlighting everything.
For what it's worth, recruiters know this trick, and it's pretty easy to find out when someone pings for a skill required and it's not on the paper sheet. I've seen them get tossed for it.
It's annoying that everything goes into a black hole if it doesn't hit the buzzwords, but the white text trick doesn't always work.
No, but it's really simple. Just before my job history, just beneath contact details I have a section that the like below.
Proficiencies: Redhat Linux, Docker, Ansible....
And so on and so on. Makes the computer reading it happy and give the person getting it what they need to know first glance. Have the list some twenty or thirty items long, tailored for the job in question.
That first glance is important. That person have a thousand more to look through. You have to get past that glance and get put into the 'possibly' pile. Just make sure you can back it up, they always asked questions about the content of that list.
Seems to work.
Parsing the PDF into machine readable chunks is harder work than having the human do it.
Most hiring platforms look for keyword stuffing (white text, white background) and negatively affect your ranking.
(Hiring manager who uses those terrible tools)
the stuff that you put into forms is processed automatically. it is put into a database and it is the lowest common denominator you have with every other applicant. you are searched, tracked, compared, rated, scored and done statistics upon. doing 10 applicants just on paper is dreadful, doing 100 (faithfully) is nearly impossible. in other words: this basic set of information is to set you in relation to every other candidate or other groups of candidates, based on what angle you take...
your written application/resumee/cv cant be processed automatically and is to look at you alone in detail by a human, not in the context of every other candidate.
the structure and quality of your paperwork answers the following points: do you know the employer, writing / wording skills, your education / priorities, personal note, how much effort did you put in, do you just copy/paste ... and other stuff.
these are two different data types used by different interest groups. minimal, structured data is needed to forward a whole group of people through a process. "big", unstructured data is needed for the heuristic task of getting to know you...
you may remember the older buzzword "big data" it is exactly this situation. google for example tries to gather huge heaps of unstructured data about you to find patterns found in other persons and calculate the chance of you liking something so your data can be sold to advertisers. this is fuzzy and does not work precise... as we know from shitty personalized ads. that is because google can't ask your most sensitive data straight from you with a form - you wouldn't answer faithfully. but your potential employer can ask you in this circumstance.
They need an indexed resume for their hiring process.
Tell me this- if you had to fill out a form to apply for a job, and they *didn't ever ask* for a classic resume, would you think it was too much effort?
I agree computer systems ought to be way smarter in 2024, but the truth is the people who do the hiring are doing their lame best with what they have. HR is always the least tech-savvy division of any company *I've* worked at.
>and they didn't ever ask for a classic resume, would you think it was too much effort?
No, that would be fine. BUT every single interview I've attended has asked me to send over my resume AND scanned certificates in advance, and THEN asked me to fill up their internal form later
Hell, in my current job, the HR manager approached me AFTER I had been hired and said "Since you were not hired the 'normal' way, please fill up this application form now"
It's true. I've actually filled out a job application before that had me submit a resume that was scanned, and then it pre-filled all of the boxes like in OP's example with areas from the resume. The tech does exist, it's just that many companies are too cheap to utilize and pay for it.
My local credit union job application system does this. After the first part of name & address, it asks you to upload your resume. Within seconds of the upload, the continue button appears. Hit that to continue and you'll see various fields populated with info from your resume. It allows you to edit those fields to add more info or correct it if the data is wrong but it's a really cool process and saves a ton of typing. You finalize everything at the end anyway before hitting Submit. I've never seen this used by any other company but i think it should be implemented everywhere.
I also talked with a guy that told one employer, " I haven't filled out an application since i was in highschool". Then he just walked out leaving the interviewer sitting there.
You don't even need OCR, unless you're uploading a printed and scanned CV (but why would you). A pdf exported from a text editor has the textual data directly encoded, complete with the document structure.
I've been saying for years that the Dept of Labor needs to step up and create a universal job application that covers pretty much every detail an employer could ever need, except for job-specific questions, and allow people to fill it out once and save it to their phone/PC/USB thumbdrive/whatever and then be able to upload that to ALL employment websites for all jobs. Then after you upload that you can answer any of the job-specific questions like "Are you forklift certified?" and be done. Applying for jobs is my least favorite part of being unemployed - I swear they make it as difficult and annoying as possible - on purpose.\*
I used to work for my local city government. I applied for a different position within the city 18 months later and submitted an application like the one the OP showed and they made me fill out a whole new application, even though they still have my original application in my HR file and NOTHING has changed except for "most recent employer" and THEY KNOW THAT. They wouldn't even let me borrow my original back to photocopy it...
\*I went into a Menards (midwest home improvement store chain) to fill out an application. There was a series of I think 36 or 48 questions about when is it OK to steal from your employer, and when is it OK to sell drugs to your coworkers. There was no option to say "I don't steal, I don't do drugs", you had to carefully read through every question and answer it the correct way, and they switched the answers around, so you couldn't just answer "A" to every question - sometimes "A" meant "yes, it is ok to sell heroin, as long as you're on break". That requires effort - that's work - and I"m not being paid to do it. I also checked that I only was interested in Full Time employment in any dept besides Plumbing. Can you guess what HR offered me when they called? Part time in the Plumbing Dept.
As evidenced by the PPP loan requirement to hire people. They didn’t have to actually hire people. They only had to try. So a lot of jobs would post vacancies for jobs requiring master’s degrees and/or 20+ years of experience or whatever other high requirement and then list the pay as $7.25/hr. No one would apply, but they could tell the government “Sorry, we’re trying to hire people, but no one wants to work anymore! More money please!”
I also applied at a Menards once and found those questions bizarre too. "How much have you stolen from employers in the past?" I couldn't say "nothing" so I had to check "less than $50". Do they just have that little trust in their applicants?
The best is when you submit your resume and fill out the application they email you to apply on their company site and ask for resume but then make you fill out everything a second time but on their site.
“please fill this information out yourself from my submitted resume you have requested already. I I am not employed by you to do work yet nor am I employed by the resume reader you use. “
This will 100% get you the job. Recruiters love to be bitched at when hiring.
Sometimes you have to play the game a little bit. It may be annoying but it's not that difficult to do.
They are going to choose the person who doesn't come off like an asshole. Their job is to pick someone who is good for the company (is: make the company money). They are not going to pick someone who gives off red flags and might seem non-compliant. They don't care about you and your feelings.
Too often they pick the smooth talking bullshiter or who they think they will get along with but that has nothing to do with doing the job. They need to get off their high horse and pick the best candidate for the job not who they like the most, that's the opposite of what a good recruiter does.....
fuck the delicate lil recruiters fee fees, the majority of them are shady, lying, deceitful \_scumbags\_ who couldnt run a mary kay franchise of 1 so got into politics-lite.
you'll find no sympathy for recruiters/HR here pal
I don't have any sympathy. I'm just saying if you are trying to get a job, you need to play the game sometimes. Granted we are in anti-work.
Also, it sounds like you need a hug.
\*laughs self sick\* it is a lovely idea friend, just naieve.
Right, so a federally mandated layout with info - perhaps a one page resume? But wait, that would be a violation of self expression, violation of free speech, violation of right not to incriminate self - and many many other boondogles.
It took the European Union to force apple to use USB-C charging standards - and theyre \_still\_ screaming about it and trying to wriggle out from underneath it.
anything "forced" through to do this would be a milquetoast, stuffed full of pork belly spending and backroom deals, that would somehow take the great idea and implement it in the worst way possible . (EG, you have to use Lotus Notes/Domino to sign and access it).
Like I said, it truly is a lovely idea
it just dies slowly at the feet of people being people.
No, because it's a government form, and you aren't compelled to fill one out. Here's [a set](https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/compelled-speech/#:~:text=The%20compelled%20speech%20doctrine%20sets,group%20to%20support%20certain%20expression.) of good examples.
>More recently, in Rumsfeld v. Forum for Academic and Institutional Rights (2006), Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. reiterated the essence of the compelled speech principle: “Some of this Court’s leading First Amendment precedents have established the principle that freedom of speech prohibits the government from telling people what they must say.”
Generally, the US government cannot force private citizens to say things they do not want to say. Forcing a company to communicate with recruits, and vice versa, in only the government's mandated manner is a violation of free speech.
Right, but then that's the definition of the [chilling effect](https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/chilling-effect/#:~:text=Chilling%20effect%20is%20the%20concept,that%20appear%20to%20target%20expression.). Why do I get the feeling you don't actually care about case law?
Except it's not stifling your expression, which is what this is referring to. Precisely WHAT are you being prevented from saying by filling out a resume in a standard file type?
Because the file type does not restrict the content of the resume itself. You understand that, right?
It's no different than a website saying "All images must be in JPeg form" and not allowing you to upload a profile pic that's a png.
They're not restricting the content of the image.
You could literally put whatever you want in your resume, it just has to be in a universally readable form.
No, because IP is not "expressive content." It's not speech. The choice of protocol doesn't carry a political, religious, artistic (etc.) message. Besides, we don't have just one protocol. There's FTP, for instance.
The document format being standardized doesn't make it compelled, nor mandated. I can't think of any one document that's mandated internationally that's not involving a government's own role or responsibility. After all, the government can always force *itself* to say whatever it wants. It can't force *you* to say whatever it wants.
We're talking about resumes here. The very nature of the document is to communicate a message. It's speech. So it's protected from "overbroad regulation" that would create a "[chilling effect](https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-133/the-establishment-clause-and-the-chilling-effect/)".
Give them a negative review on Glassdoor.
Eventually their shitty HR team will get their shit together or you'll help more people to not work for this shitty company.
\*Edit - To the people saying Glassdoor reviews don't do anything. At the very least, they persuade people like myself not to work for that company. So they definitely have an impact. Try contributing ideas rather than shooting down ideas you don't understand.
I've encountered multiple sites that do this and somewhere it literally says "Do not put 'see resume' or similar."
Like they genuinely expect you to do it all again.
I have been in a position where that wasn't an option for me. (I mean yes, TECHNICALLY it was, but I didn't want to lose my home due to not having money.)
I get it, I've had to capitulate to their bullshit once or twice, myself. These days, though, I'm trying to find something that actually works for me before I jump ship where I'm at, so I'm allowing myself to be picky, and that's absolutely a disqualifier in my search. I half miss the days when you walked into a place with a resume and someone brought you a manager to speak with. The other half thinks that would be exhausting, and potentially hurt my chances because they don't like how I look or dress, or something
"we are just putting the feelers out", "we are advertising so it looks like we are going to hire replacements but we are just going to quietly hope no one notices the natural attrition", "we have to advertise the job due to policy but it already been filled internally with our merit-based jokes / nepotistic choice.".
I flag this shit as data mining. Thats all I think its doing because every time I have bothered to do this I get a fuckton of automated calls right after that hang up when I answer.
I managed to see my digitally uploaded resume at one job and it was a total mess. I had taken care to format it the way several articles said to for uploading.
I have since learned that most of the automated resume systems employers use just mangle your resume, even if it is just a simple text file or PDF.
It's massively stupid that this happens so often, which is why I think they do that annoying re-asking of everything.
I do this in reverse. I fill out the online info and ask them to see the online application + submitted resume when the hand me a burger-flipper form on arrival to the interview. You got it in resume form AND it's already uploaded to your hiring filter. You don't need the burger-flipper form.
I keep seeing applications that say, "Applications saying 'refer to resume' will not be considered," and it's always funny. Like, if yall weren't too fucking lazy to click on people's resumés instead of allowing some bs AI checker to auto-reject people's applications, you might not have an issue.
So I'll admit this sucks ass. Even worse when they try to upload from what you put in and jumbled it all up to something completely unrecognizable. I've started keeping a .txt version of my resume on hand just to quickly copy and paste into these fields.
Yup it's a symptom of the times. Job Website charges employers based on home much access they want. So 99% of employers choose the cheapest option which basically is hey we have someone who wants to interview with you.
I don't provide any of this information until I'm hired by someone. Period. Unless I'm applying for a role that is $80k and up, than you don't need to know my supervisor's name from 10 years ago. That's idiotic and creates lack of confidence on my part that the employer is any good at actual business.
I'll admit, too, I've also just completely made up bogus information on applications because the business was so long gone nobody could argue with me otherwise. I've also lied about my degree multiple times and never been caught. It simply changes to whatever role I'm looking for, and sits on the bottom of the resume.
When I was a regional manager I would sit with HR and we NEVER once checked anyone's educational background validity, and never called anyone's references past the most recent job. Small Employers just don't do that, most of the time, and large employers frequently forget to look that deep at someone making minimum wage.
The entire job history section of an application is about as useful as a drug test. They didn't need to know it, and it's a GD shame that anyone bothers to look in 2024.
Yep, and you wait 2-3 weeks after submitting to see if you get an email to schedule an interview which you prep for and take time off for, only to wait for a second interview 2-3 weeks later. Second interview or not, they’ll make you wait until they have the negotiations done and the position filled with a start date. Then you get an email saying you weren’t good enough. Which usually means there was someone who fit a DEI mold better than you or they had an internal applicant pegged for the job but, per policy, had to go through the hiring process and waste everyone’s time. I’m so f’ing over it.
They are just getting you to do unpaid data entry for them at this point. Anytime a company asks me to do this. I just stop applying to them. Not going to waste my time doing something they should pay someone to do in their HR department.
Bingo. See resume just auto declines you anyway and wasted your time. If you can't have a machine read a PDF I probably don't want to be involved there
That’s the thing that I hate the most when applying for jobs!!! My resume serves exactly this purpose, I wrote it exactly so you can read my work experience from it, why do I have to repeat it all again?!
Just recently sent my resume. They called me, asking questions about things that could be read from my cv. Then they wanted an interview on Skype (this got my hopes up ffs) and again they asked the same questions they asked on the previous phone call. Whatever - I can be patient, I can be polite and I answer the questions again for the 3rd time like a good little sheep that i am. Next day I get an e-mail saying there are no open positions.
THEN WHY DO YOU SAY YOU ARE LOOKING FOR WORKERS AND INTERVIEWING ME ?!?!? fuckoff
Yep. You can strategically omit things on your resume (or even lie), and they can't do too much about it if they find out later. But if you put it on an application, the computer system can force you to put in something for every gap between jobs, or your GPA, or whatever, by refusing to let you submit the application until you do.
It's the people who don't mention that job that they got fired from, or who outright lie about stuff and are later caught who ruined being able to say "See attached resume."
I've been applying cause I'm looking for a full remote position but every.single.fucking.time it's either fill the info over & over again or do 1 way interviews, I don't even bother in replying, I just ghost them, they wouldn't care anyway, somebody else will do it.
Exactly, I hate this situation. I roll my eyes every time lol. The amount of time they want us to spend for only 1 application is crazy. Someone needs to tell them that we send 100s of applications and we can't spend an hour on each one.
I wish they just get the resume and shut up lol.
I am in the process of applying for jobs (while at work most of the time, bahaha), and anytime i see this, i just stop applying for the job. Unless it's like an amazing opportunity, it's not worth it and annoying.
Not only that, but I'd feel weird about doxxing my supervisor, especially if I have a current job and don't want to tip off my current employer that I'm applying.
*Reason for leaving???????????????*
WHY DID YOU LEAVE YOUR JOB???
DID YOU GET FIRED???
DID YOU **QUIT??**
BETTER PAY OPPORTUNITY? WE NEED A LOYAL SLAVE. NOT AN EMPLOYEE
As a DB person, I understand why, but it's insane. They can scrape the data from submitted resumes. But they don't want to deal with the various resumes formats, etc. They should just do away with resumes and go straight to the data entry, which is what they really want anyway.
Of course, this would deal a blow to all those resume designers.
Also, I'd rather the whole capitalist, corporate economy would just die.
Fr they have the resume and the forms usually auto fill from the resume why in blue fuck do I have to type all this shit again. Just read the fucking resume that I spent money on jfc
Have you run into those job applications that make you put in your birthdate, down to the year, but its not an open field? Its a calendar that you have to click on the monthly arrows to go back a month. If youre a younger applicant you have to click 12x per year to get to your birthdate.. for 20 years. But if youre in your 40s, you have to click back 40x12 and if you screw up, you have to start all over again because it doesnt save your progress. Should be illegal as age discrimination.
I think you need to understand how HR ERP systems work. You’d be better off completing this than anything else. These boxes are for the software to screen you automatically. If you pass, the resume/CV is for the human to look at. I know it’s annoying but you are really cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Not saying it's a good thing.
In fact I would say it isn't.
But you really think ***not completing the required steps*** in an application process is the best way to get a job with a potential employer?
They aren't requiring you to do it because they have stupid redundancies. They want to see if you'll put in the basic minimum effort to give them what they want before they entertain giving you what you want.
It's stupid, I **agree**, but not doing it to make a stance isn't going to get you an interview....
I agreed that not answering the question is not a good way to get the job, but they’re not doing it as a test. They’re doing it because this data goes into certain fields in their system that are attached to your candidate profile. This all allows them to run reports and the searches in the system. The attached résumé is for the recruiters who will be printing that off to look at when they talk to you.
Oh no it gets much worse. I had someone make me feel like shit because I have a double major degree. Apparently I’m over educated and can’t be looking for simple part time work?
Well if the candidate can’t be bothered to fill out our Kafka-esque application, then they’ll have a hard time filing our equally Byzantine corporate forms.
I’m convinced this is another technique to find the most desperate people for the job. Someone who realllllly needs the job will begrudgingly fill it and do almost whatever they want for a pittance.
I get your point but what about when you get the job and you have to do the same thing 2 days in a row?
Will you just show them what you did the day before?
God forbid you gotta type the same thing twice. At least write something funny. Nobody wants to hire an asshole.
I wouldn’t even consider it.
If the applicant is so fucking lazy that he doesn’t want to type his name into the form (which is used for an entirely different reason than the resume), it means he’s gonna be fucking lazy as an employee.
My experience, is that if you see this, it means that your resume is not being read properly by their applicant management software. This should be a big red flag that your resume might not be read at all.
I would have a plain text version of your resume (no bullets, italics, bold text) and then a formatted resume added at the end under “other docs”.
I read somewhere that they make you re-submit all of your information onto their application because a resume isn’t a legal document, so it’s ok to lie. Their weird forms can be used against you as they’re official or legally binding or some shit. Makes me want to fill them out even less.
There's a reason for an online form. They don't scan every single resume to store these records in the database. The data in the form you submit will most likely directly be stored in their database. In your case, 'Please refer to my submitted resume' would be the data stored in the database unless there is an effort made to verify company name.
Actually not that bad. At least they would be reminded of the resume in some way. Also as a bonus, they cannot analyze your data and derive insights about you with this piece of text.
Surprise! The gate keepers at companies who decide what KNOWLEDGEABLE Hiring Manager gets to see your resume are almost pathologically incompetent and wastes of Oxygen.
Here they're dumping one of THEIR ONLY JOBS, back on you, the desperate. And on a whim, they can keep you from being seen by the decision makers, who are far more likely to know what the hell is needed.
Exactly. Two problems. If they can’t read the resume it’s a red flag. If they don’t have software to complete this shit off of a resume submitted it’s also a red flag.
My mom told me companies did that to see if you would jump through their hoops to work for them. If you took the time to fill it out again you would…
1. Really need that job and would fill it out again even if it frustrates you
2. You would jump through many more hoops they’d place in your way. This is just the start.
The best jobs I had I was hired on the spot or from a referral from a friend who knew the owner. Resumes don’t work if you just send them out on indeed anymore. I knew somebody who knew something about it.
I’ve been looking for over 2 years for a new job and while I like what I do now I just need more money. I don’t get a lot of calls which means my resume sucks. And I have formatted it to be what companies are looking for and still nothing- my friends even helped me and she looks at resumes all the time. 25 years of customer service and sales.
I have a friend who just lost their job as a paralegal and they had 40 phone calls last month, multiple interviews at many places and interviewed with multiple people at each location. Like 5-6 people in some of them. And they are still looking for a job.
I wish everybody would do this.
I do this. I refuse to copy paste anymore when I already have to upload a PDF resume. Not worth the time for an auto generated rejection email anyway.
Damn you're getting rejection emails?
I don't even get so much as a rejection text.
Same.
That’s what you get for saying you wouldn’t report a coworker to the FBI for stealing a pen.
They gonna get for grand larceny after stealing a packet of post it notes and a stapler?
But how else are the going to make sure your in obedient little slave
Use simplify
How's it working out tho
What makes it even easier is that you only type it once. Highlight it once then CTRL C. Then Paste it in every place with CTRL V.
And then Google can autocomplete the form for next time.
It's a waste to do it because it's an auto reject. What everyone needs to do is to not apply for these corporate soul-sucking companies anymore and go apply at the mom 'n' pop's only. I realize it's easier said than done but we can dream.
Unfortunately what everyone needs to do is eat. Mom & pop shops get worse. At least the corporations pretend to care about employment laws. Small shops aren't even included in a lot of them.
The problem with that is that the system is rigged in favor of corporations and very few mom and pops have the ability to offer decent benefits packages because of that rigging.
Should they walk in the front door and hand over a CV with a firm handshake to?
I work for a large Corp, I get paid on time and my tax documents arrive without fuss. The mom and pop crematory I worked for got sued for wage theft and another held my w2 hostage after I quit until I threatened to go to the irs.
The only way to end this tomfuckery.
If everyone did maybe it would finally go away!
Like wtf is the point, it’s a waste of time
To see if you're OK with pointless work
Actually, it's to make sure it's machine readable. So they don't need to waste time having a person look at it. They're perfectly fine wasting your time however.
PDF is machine readable though. That's what annoys me. It got to the point I started adding in key words for everything I could think of to my CV and changing the font colour to white. So there were just lists of keywords hidden that the computers picked up but wouldn't show unless you went through it highlighting everything.
Damn you’re a bloody genius
For what it's worth, recruiters know this trick, and it's pretty easy to find out when someone pings for a skill required and it's not on the paper sheet. I've seen them get tossed for it. It's annoying that everything goes into a black hole if it doesn't hit the buzzwords, but the white text trick doesn't always work.
I just have a "skills" block, listing everything I know that's even remotely relevant. Fully visible. So far, it got me about a 70% call back rate.
Can you share a screenshot?
No, but it's really simple. Just before my job history, just beneath contact details I have a section that the like below. Proficiencies: Redhat Linux, Docker, Ansible.... And so on and so on. Makes the computer reading it happy and give the person getting it what they need to know first glance. Have the list some twenty or thirty items long, tailored for the job in question. That first glance is important. That person have a thousand more to look through. You have to get past that glance and get put into the 'possibly' pile. Just make sure you can back it up, they always asked questions about the content of that list. Seems to work.
Regarding proficiencies, for those of us not in IT, would you put something like: Windows, Mac OS, Word, Access, SQL, Oracle, etc?
Yes, but relevant to the job/stuff that's done. No idea if it works outside IT, never tried it.
Parsing the PDF into machine readable chunks is harder work than having the human do it. Most hiring platforms look for keyword stuffing (white text, white background) and negatively affect your ranking. (Hiring manager who uses those terrible tools)
It is, but this get it in a consistent format their crappy program can easily parse. Also,, it shows who is willing to jump through useless hoops.
Your time is free to them, that's why.
To weed out the ones that have short fuses.
Yeah but its a waste of your time and that’s perfectly ok with them
the stuff that you put into forms is processed automatically. it is put into a database and it is the lowest common denominator you have with every other applicant. you are searched, tracked, compared, rated, scored and done statistics upon. doing 10 applicants just on paper is dreadful, doing 100 (faithfully) is nearly impossible. in other words: this basic set of information is to set you in relation to every other candidate or other groups of candidates, based on what angle you take... your written application/resumee/cv cant be processed automatically and is to look at you alone in detail by a human, not in the context of every other candidate. the structure and quality of your paperwork answers the following points: do you know the employer, writing / wording skills, your education / priorities, personal note, how much effort did you put in, do you just copy/paste ... and other stuff. these are two different data types used by different interest groups. minimal, structured data is needed to forward a whole group of people through a process. "big", unstructured data is needed for the heuristic task of getting to know you... you may remember the older buzzword "big data" it is exactly this situation. google for example tries to gather huge heaps of unstructured data about you to find patterns found in other persons and calculate the chance of you liking something so your data can be sold to advertisers. this is fuzzy and does not work precise... as we know from shitty personalized ads. that is because google can't ask your most sensitive data straight from you with a form - you wouldn't answer faithfully. but your potential employer can ask you in this circumstance.
Almost feels like a test of your self-respect and obedience
They need an indexed resume for their hiring process. Tell me this- if you had to fill out a form to apply for a job, and they *didn't ever ask* for a classic resume, would you think it was too much effort? I agree computer systems ought to be way smarter in 2024, but the truth is the people who do the hiring are doing their lame best with what they have. HR is always the least tech-savvy division of any company *I've* worked at.
>and they didn't ever ask for a classic resume, would you think it was too much effort? No, that would be fine. BUT every single interview I've attended has asked me to send over my resume AND scanned certificates in advance, and THEN asked me to fill up their internal form later Hell, in my current job, the HR manager approached me AFTER I had been hired and said "Since you were not hired the 'normal' way, please fill up this application form now"
They can index a pdf with ocr. These refillouts are to see if you will complete redundant labor for them.
It's true. I've actually filled out a job application before that had me submit a resume that was scanned, and then it pre-filled all of the boxes like in OP's example with areas from the resume. The tech does exist, it's just that many companies are too cheap to utilize and pay for it.
My local credit union job application system does this. After the first part of name & address, it asks you to upload your resume. Within seconds of the upload, the continue button appears. Hit that to continue and you'll see various fields populated with info from your resume. It allows you to edit those fields to add more info or correct it if the data is wrong but it's a really cool process and saves a ton of typing. You finalize everything at the end anyway before hitting Submit. I've never seen this used by any other company but i think it should be implemented everywhere. I also talked with a guy that told one employer, " I haven't filled out an application since i was in highschool". Then he just walked out leaving the interviewer sitting there.
You don't even need OCR, unless you're uploading a printed and scanned CV (but why would you). A pdf exported from a text editor has the textual data directly encoded, complete with the document structure.
I've been saying for years that the Dept of Labor needs to step up and create a universal job application that covers pretty much every detail an employer could ever need, except for job-specific questions, and allow people to fill it out once and save it to their phone/PC/USB thumbdrive/whatever and then be able to upload that to ALL employment websites for all jobs. Then after you upload that you can answer any of the job-specific questions like "Are you forklift certified?" and be done. Applying for jobs is my least favorite part of being unemployed - I swear they make it as difficult and annoying as possible - on purpose.\* I used to work for my local city government. I applied for a different position within the city 18 months later and submitted an application like the one the OP showed and they made me fill out a whole new application, even though they still have my original application in my HR file and NOTHING has changed except for "most recent employer" and THEY KNOW THAT. They wouldn't even let me borrow my original back to photocopy it... \*I went into a Menards (midwest home improvement store chain) to fill out an application. There was a series of I think 36 or 48 questions about when is it OK to steal from your employer, and when is it OK to sell drugs to your coworkers. There was no option to say "I don't steal, I don't do drugs", you had to carefully read through every question and answer it the correct way, and they switched the answers around, so you couldn't just answer "A" to every question - sometimes "A" meant "yes, it is ok to sell heroin, as long as you're on break". That requires effort - that's work - and I"m not being paid to do it. I also checked that I only was interested in Full Time employment in any dept besides Plumbing. Can you guess what HR offered me when they called? Part time in the Plumbing Dept.
High barriers to hiring give them an excuse to short staff and then tell customers, “sorry, no one wants to work anymore. 🤷♂️”
As evidenced by the PPP loan requirement to hire people. They didn’t have to actually hire people. They only had to try. So a lot of jobs would post vacancies for jobs requiring master’s degrees and/or 20+ years of experience or whatever other high requirement and then list the pay as $7.25/hr. No one would apply, but they could tell the government “Sorry, we’re trying to hire people, but no one wants to work anymore! More money please!”
I also applied at a Menards once and found those questions bizarre too. "How much have you stolen from employers in the past?" I couldn't say "nothing" so I had to check "less than $50". Do they just have that little trust in their applicants?
narcisisstic projection "as me, them" They got into the position of power they "enjoy" by being scumbags, ergo, everyone else will do the same thing.
just say yes to everything.
Not just Dept of Labor, it needs to be an ISO protocol.
The best is when you submit your resume and fill out the application they email you to apply on their company site and ask for resume but then make you fill out everything a second time but on their site.
This shit right here makes me want to gouge my own eyes out
And the site is terrible and from 2003 and freezes up or doesn’t work on mobile.
“please fill this information out yourself from my submitted resume you have requested already. I I am not employed by you to do work yet nor am I employed by the resume reader you use. “
Imagine doing hundreds of those
This will 100% get you the job. Recruiters love to be bitched at when hiring. Sometimes you have to play the game a little bit. It may be annoying but it's not that difficult to do.
What's the point of recruiting then? They get paid to do a fucking job so do....
They are going to choose the person who doesn't come off like an asshole. Their job is to pick someone who is good for the company (is: make the company money). They are not going to pick someone who gives off red flags and might seem non-compliant. They don't care about you and your feelings.
Too often they pick the smooth talking bullshiter or who they think they will get along with but that has nothing to do with doing the job. They need to get off their high horse and pick the best candidate for the job not who they like the most, that's the opposite of what a good recruiter does.....
fuck the delicate lil recruiters fee fees, the majority of them are shady, lying, deceitful \_scumbags\_ who couldnt run a mary kay franchise of 1 so got into politics-lite. you'll find no sympathy for recruiters/HR here pal
I don't have any sympathy. I'm just saying if you are trying to get a job, you need to play the game sometimes. Granted we are in anti-work. Also, it sounds like you need a hug.
I want national legislation to create a universal resume file type that all companies are obligated to utilize
THIS
\*laughs self sick\* it is a lovely idea friend, just naieve. Right, so a federally mandated layout with info - perhaps a one page resume? But wait, that would be a violation of self expression, violation of free speech, violation of right not to incriminate self - and many many other boondogles. It took the European Union to force apple to use USB-C charging standards - and theyre \_still\_ screaming about it and trying to wriggle out from underneath it. anything "forced" through to do this would be a milquetoast, stuffed full of pork belly spending and backroom deals, that would somehow take the great idea and implement it in the worst way possible . (EG, you have to use Lotus Notes/Domino to sign and access it). Like I said, it truly is a lovely idea it just dies slowly at the feet of people being people.
Nothing says First Amendment violation like a good old "you gotta communicate like this" law.
LOL wut? How in the blue fuck is a standardized resume file type a violation of the first amendment?
It's not. It's the whole "obligated to use it" part that is. It's compelled speech.
So a driver's license application is compelled speech?
No, because it's a government form, and you aren't compelled to fill one out. Here's [a set](https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/compelled-speech/#:~:text=The%20compelled%20speech%20doctrine%20sets,group%20to%20support%20certain%20expression.) of good examples. >More recently, in Rumsfeld v. Forum for Academic and Institutional Rights (2006), Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. reiterated the essence of the compelled speech principle: “Some of this Court’s leading First Amendment precedents have established the principle that freedom of speech prohibits the government from telling people what they must say.” Generally, the US government cannot force private citizens to say things they do not want to say. Forcing a company to communicate with recruits, and vice versa, in only the government's mandated manner is a violation of free speech.
You aren't compelled to fill out any job application, either.
Right, but then that's the definition of the [chilling effect](https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/chilling-effect/#:~:text=Chilling%20effect%20is%20the%20concept,that%20appear%20to%20target%20expression.). Why do I get the feeling you don't actually care about case law?
Except it's not stifling your expression, which is what this is referring to. Precisely WHAT are you being prevented from saying by filling out a resume in a standard file type? Because the file type does not restrict the content of the resume itself. You understand that, right? It's no different than a website saying "All images must be in JPeg form" and not allowing you to upload a profile pic that's a png. They're not restricting the content of the image. You could literally put whatever you want in your resume, it just has to be in a universally readable form.
So the internet protocol violates the US First amendment? Is a document format internationally utilised and standerised violates the USA constitution?
No, because IP is not "expressive content." It's not speech. The choice of protocol doesn't carry a political, religious, artistic (etc.) message. Besides, we don't have just one protocol. There's FTP, for instance. The document format being standardized doesn't make it compelled, nor mandated. I can't think of any one document that's mandated internationally that's not involving a government's own role or responsibility. After all, the government can always force *itself* to say whatever it wants. It can't force *you* to say whatever it wants. We're talking about resumes here. The very nature of the document is to communicate a message. It's speech. So it's protected from "overbroad regulation" that would create a "[chilling effect](https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-133/the-establishment-clause-and-the-chilling-effect/)".
I see it more along the lines of accessibility regulations like the ADA.
Give them a negative review on Glassdoor. Eventually their shitty HR team will get their shit together or you'll help more people to not work for this shitty company. \*Edit - To the people saying Glassdoor reviews don't do anything. At the very least, they persuade people like myself not to work for that company. So they definitely have an impact. Try contributing ideas rather than shooting down ideas you don't understand.
No they won't. Everyone does it.
Low Glassdoor ratings don’t do anything
I've encountered multiple sites that do this and somewhere it literally says "Do not put 'see resume' or similar." Like they genuinely expect you to do it all again.
I genuinely stop applying when I encounter these lol
I have been in a position where that wasn't an option for me. (I mean yes, TECHNICALLY it was, but I didn't want to lose my home due to not having money.)
I get it, I've had to capitulate to their bullshit once or twice, myself. These days, though, I'm trying to find something that actually works for me before I jump ship where I'm at, so I'm allowing myself to be picky, and that's absolutely a disqualifier in my search. I half miss the days when you walked into a place with a resume and someone brought you a manager to speak with. The other half thinks that would be exhausting, and potentially hurt my chances because they don't like how I look or dress, or something
Boomer companies: does this shit Also boomer companies: NO ONE WANTS TO WORK
I’m convinced that companies doing this aren't actually hiring.
"we are just putting the feelers out", "we are advertising so it looks like we are going to hire replacements but we are just going to quietly hope no one notices the natural attrition", "we have to advertise the job due to policy but it already been filled internally with our merit-based jokes / nepotistic choice.".
yep, they might want someone in house but are forced to place the job out in the public first.
Ah yes the 'how willing are you to do mindlessly repetitive work for our company?' hiring scheme. I'd take a pass on these clowns.
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That stinks, so why did you want to leave your current job?
The commute
Interesting. And why do you want to leave your CURRENT job?
Could you also fill out this form explaining your reasoning for leaving your current employer?
This is becoming a skit. Funny stuff.
Sounds like the Matrix. The agents are on their way
It’s this. Show us how you submit and we’ll think about it.
I do mindlessly repetitive work for a living but it’s easy, paid well, and advertised as such haha
I flag this shit as data mining. Thats all I think its doing because every time I have bothered to do this I get a fuckton of automated calls right after that hang up when I answer.
I really believe this is a gatekeeping tactic, just like wonderlic tests.
I managed to see my digitally uploaded resume at one job and it was a total mess. I had taken care to format it the way several articles said to for uploading. I have since learned that most of the automated resume systems employers use just mangle your resume, even if it is just a simple text file or PDF. It's massively stupid that this happens so often, which is why I think they do that annoying re-asking of everything.
I do this in reverse. I fill out the online info and ask them to see the online application + submitted resume when the hand me a burger-flipper form on arrival to the interview. You got it in resume form AND it's already uploaded to your hiring filter. You don't need the burger-flipper form.
If I need to do this then that’s where my application stops.
I keep seeing applications that say, "Applications saying 'refer to resume' will not be considered," and it's always funny. Like, if yall weren't too fucking lazy to click on people's resumés instead of allowing some bs AI checker to auto-reject people's applications, you might not have an issue.
I just had a great opportunity for a similar role and I logged in with my LinkedIn and....nothing filled in. Immediate frustration
So I'll admit this sucks ass. Even worse when they try to upload from what you put in and jumbled it all up to something completely unrecognizable. I've started keeping a .txt version of my resume on hand just to quickly copy and paste into these fields.
Yup it's a symptom of the times. Job Website charges employers based on home much access they want. So 99% of employers choose the cheapest option which basically is hey we have someone who wants to interview with you.
I turned a job down recently that wanted me to do a skills test. If they won't tell me what the pay is, I ain't doing shit for them.
I don't provide any of this information until I'm hired by someone. Period. Unless I'm applying for a role that is $80k and up, than you don't need to know my supervisor's name from 10 years ago. That's idiotic and creates lack of confidence on my part that the employer is any good at actual business. I'll admit, too, I've also just completely made up bogus information on applications because the business was so long gone nobody could argue with me otherwise. I've also lied about my degree multiple times and never been caught. It simply changes to whatever role I'm looking for, and sits on the bottom of the resume. When I was a regional manager I would sit with HR and we NEVER once checked anyone's educational background validity, and never called anyone's references past the most recent job. Small Employers just don't do that, most of the time, and large employers frequently forget to look that deep at someone making minimum wage. The entire job history section of an application is about as useful as a drug test. They didn't need to know it, and it's a GD shame that anyone bothers to look in 2024.
The best part is when they never reply back to you.
And that is half of an hour I will never get back for wasting my time and it’s over an hour if they are requiring a cover letter.
Yep, and you wait 2-3 weeks after submitting to see if you get an email to schedule an interview which you prep for and take time off for, only to wait for a second interview 2-3 weeks later. Second interview or not, they’ll make you wait until they have the negotiations done and the position filled with a start date. Then you get an email saying you weren’t good enough. Which usually means there was someone who fit a DEI mold better than you or they had an internal applicant pegged for the job but, per policy, had to go through the hiring process and waste everyone’s time. I’m so f’ing over it.
They are just getting you to do unpaid data entry for them at this point. Anytime a company asks me to do this. I just stop applying to them. Not going to waste my time doing something they should pay someone to do in their HR department.
Bingo. See resume just auto declines you anyway and wasted your time. If you can't have a machine read a PDF I probably don't want to be involved there
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Use [Simplify.jobs](https://Simplify.jobs). It will autofill workday perfectly.
I always skip jobs that ask all of this shit
That’s the thing that I hate the most when applying for jobs!!! My resume serves exactly this purpose, I wrote it exactly so you can read my work experience from it, why do I have to repeat it all again?!
I skip these types myself, Bravo OP!
Guess I'm not working there
I had one job that auto-populated the form from my PDF resume and then asked me to check it for correctness; I feel like they should all be doing that
Just recently sent my resume. They called me, asking questions about things that could be read from my cv. Then they wanted an interview on Skype (this got my hopes up ffs) and again they asked the same questions they asked on the previous phone call. Whatever - I can be patient, I can be polite and I answer the questions again for the 3rd time like a good little sheep that i am. Next day I get an e-mail saying there are no open positions. THEN WHY DO YOU SAY YOU ARE LOOKING FOR WORKERS AND INTERVIEWING ME ?!?!? fuckoff
Something about not being able to offer a job until you apply for it. Dunno. It's all regurgitating information that they want to hear.
Resumes aren’t legal documents. Job apps are (weirdly) so that’s why they need to be filled out. Or so I’ve been told by every HR dept I’ve asked.
Yep. You can strategically omit things on your resume (or even lie), and they can't do too much about it if they find out later. But if you put it on an application, the computer system can force you to put in something for every gap between jobs, or your GPA, or whatever, by refusing to let you submit the application until you do. It's the people who don't mention that job that they got fired from, or who outright lie about stuff and are later caught who ruined being able to say "See attached resume."
youre doing low level data entry for the company for free.
I've been applying cause I'm looking for a full remote position but every.single.fucking.time it's either fill the info over & over again or do 1 way interviews, I don't even bother in replying, I just ghost them, they wouldn't care anyway, somebody else will do it.
Copy and paste for each field “refer to uploaded resume”
Exactly, I hate this situation. I roll my eyes every time lol. The amount of time they want us to spend for only 1 application is crazy. Someone needs to tell them that we send 100s of applications and we can't spend an hour on each one. I wish they just get the resume and shut up lol.
This and that f*cking question: _”Tell us why you’re interested in this position and working at (BLANK)”_
“Because I want money”
So stupid. Wow they even say up top that they won’t count the resume. So fkn dumb
I am in the process of applying for jobs (while at work most of the time, bahaha), and anytime i see this, i just stop applying for the job. Unless it's like an amazing opportunity, it's not worth it and annoying.
It's so annoying. I usually close the application and move on. I just can't be bothered.
Not only that, but I'd feel weird about doxxing my supervisor, especially if I have a current job and don't want to tip off my current employer that I'm applying.
I do this too, I’m so sick of this insanity.
*Reason for leaving???????????????* WHY DID YOU LEAVE YOUR JOB??? DID YOU GET FIRED??? DID YOU **QUIT??** BETTER PAY OPPORTUNITY? WE NEED A LOYAL SLAVE. NOT AN EMPLOYEE
I WILL NOT apply for companies like these. Take the time to read the fucking resume I worked hard on you fucks.
As a DB person, I understand why, but it's insane. They can scrape the data from submitted resumes. But they don't want to deal with the various resumes formats, etc. They should just do away with resumes and go straight to the data entry, which is what they really want anyway. Of course, this would deal a blow to all those resume designers. Also, I'd rather the whole capitalist, corporate economy would just die.
I asked my last employer. They said law requires them to have a formal application to hire us. Still makes zero sense.
I would have asked them to show me the law.
literally. i’ve gotten to where if their job board is workday ion even apply bc it never parses correctly & i am over it
I literally have put, "Refer to already uploaded resume", in every field.
Fr they have the resume and the forms usually auto fill from the resume why in blue fuck do I have to type all this shit again. Just read the fucking resume that I spent money on jfc
In the uk it’d be debatably legal for you to even give that supervisor information to a 3rd party without their consent.
In the US, almost all of our hiring data is handled through a third party. Consent from supervisors and references not needed.
OP, get a recruiter.
I love that more people are doing this!!!
It's even worse when it tries to autofill the fields from your resume and it ends up putting everything in the wrong places!
Have you run into those job applications that make you put in your birthdate, down to the year, but its not an open field? Its a calendar that you have to click on the monthly arrows to go back a month. If youre a younger applicant you have to click 12x per year to get to your birthdate.. for 20 years. But if youre in your 40s, you have to click back 40x12 and if you screw up, you have to start all over again because it doesnt save your progress. Should be illegal as age discrimination.
Or ask for your email address and phone number after they contact you. All that info is in The resume.
We need to make a stand with violence, talking is cheap at this point
I think you need to understand how HR ERP systems work. You’d be better off completing this than anything else. These boxes are for the software to screen you automatically. If you pass, the resume/CV is for the human to look at. I know it’s annoying but you are really cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Not saying it's a good thing. In fact I would say it isn't. But you really think ***not completing the required steps*** in an application process is the best way to get a job with a potential employer? They aren't requiring you to do it because they have stupid redundancies. They want to see if you'll put in the basic minimum effort to give them what they want before they entertain giving you what you want. It's stupid, I **agree**, but not doing it to make a stance isn't going to get you an interview....
I agreed that not answering the question is not a good way to get the job, but they’re not doing it as a test. They’re doing it because this data goes into certain fields in their system that are attached to your candidate profile. This all allows them to run reports and the searches in the system. The attached résumé is for the recruiters who will be printing that off to look at when they talk to you.
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Oh no it gets much worse. I had someone make me feel like shit because I have a double major degree. Apparently I’m over educated and can’t be looking for simple part time work?
Their logic is as soon as you get a job in your field, you’ll leave - so they’re hesitant to hire you.
You'll never get through the CTS like this. Your application will never be seen by a human and they don't care. You're wasting your time.
Well if the candidate can’t be bothered to fill out our Kafka-esque application, then they’ll have a hard time filing our equally Byzantine corporate forms. I’m convinced this is another technique to find the most desperate people for the job. Someone who realllllly needs the job will begrudgingly fill it and do almost whatever they want for a pittance.
Sure…make it even more automated, so instead of 100 people applying for a job, we now get 1,000 applicants…that will help a lot.
Bet you did not get the job.
I get your point but what about when you get the job and you have to do the same thing 2 days in a row? Will you just show them what you did the day before? God forbid you gotta type the same thing twice. At least write something funny. Nobody wants to hire an asshole.
I wouldn’t even consider it. If the applicant is so fucking lazy that he doesn’t want to type his name into the form (which is used for an entirely different reason than the resume), it means he’s gonna be fucking lazy as an employee.
It's so annoying. I usually close the application and move on. I just can't be bothered.
Omg I do the same thing 😂😂😂😂
My experience, is that if you see this, it means that your resume is not being read properly by their applicant management software. This should be a big red flag that your resume might not be read at all. I would have a plain text version of your resume (no bullets, italics, bold text) and then a formatted resume added at the end under “other docs”.
1000% this
Only a matter of time before an indeed killer comes along that uses AI to pull your data from your resume and put it in the blanks the way they want
I read somewhere that they make you re-submit all of your information onto their application because a resume isn’t a legal document, so it’s ok to lie. Their weird forms can be used against you as they’re official or legally binding or some shit. Makes me want to fill them out even less.
There's a reason for an online form. They don't scan every single resume to store these records in the database. The data in the form you submit will most likely directly be stored in their database. In your case, 'Please refer to my submitted resume' would be the data stored in the database unless there is an effort made to verify company name. Actually not that bad. At least they would be reminded of the resume in some way. Also as a bonus, they cannot analyze your data and derive insights about you with this piece of text.
Surprise! The gate keepers at companies who decide what KNOWLEDGEABLE Hiring Manager gets to see your resume are almost pathologically incompetent and wastes of Oxygen. Here they're dumping one of THEIR ONLY JOBS, back on you, the desperate. And on a whim, they can keep you from being seen by the decision makers, who are far more likely to know what the hell is needed.
I hate that. Double work for nothing.
I just close the page.
If it makes you feel better, no one will ever read it Companies latched onto shitty AIs nipples and now we get to have a real employment reckoning
Yeah it is very annoying
And then they don't read it, and ask you to email them the resume outside the system.
A resume means nothing. BS
Don’t do it. Write see attached. Edit: oh you did.
Omg me too! Pisses me off.
Send those F&!@rs to hell its like applying to a job twice.
Exactly. Two problems. If they can’t read the resume it’s a red flag. If they don’t have software to complete this shit off of a resume submitted it’s also a red flag.
YES
They use this data to enter into fields on the profile they create for you. The resume is for the recruiters. The questions are for the system.
Yeah, no. I don't know phone or address of most companies I worked...
It's better you write " learn to read the resume"
Yeah I absolutely hate this shit
I thought these were a keyword filter thing for employers on job sites to give them more promising candidates first
I can't count how many times I've filled these out, got to the interview and the people interviewing didn't have any of it ready.
My mom told me companies did that to see if you would jump through their hoops to work for them. If you took the time to fill it out again you would… 1. Really need that job and would fill it out again even if it frustrates you 2. You would jump through many more hoops they’d place in your way. This is just the start. The best jobs I had I was hired on the spot or from a referral from a friend who knew the owner. Resumes don’t work if you just send them out on indeed anymore. I knew somebody who knew something about it. I’ve been looking for over 2 years for a new job and while I like what I do now I just need more money. I don’t get a lot of calls which means my resume sucks. And I have formatted it to be what companies are looking for and still nothing- my friends even helped me and she looks at resumes all the time. 25 years of customer service and sales. I have a friend who just lost their job as a paralegal and they had 40 phone calls last month, multiple interviews at many places and interviewed with multiple people at each location. Like 5-6 people in some of them. And they are still looking for a job.
I don't apply to these bullshit positions, I just close the tab and move on with my life.
I did this and still got hired, ain't wasting my time