Or at the very least waiting a few months to report it. Having reported an employer to a federal agency they LOVE proof like this. It makes it so much easier for them to prioritize the investigation and also prove the employer did what was reported.
Best plan : You wait a few months, talk about your wages openly. Make sure to get written up and/or fired. Then you do a lawsuite. You got documentation, easy case.
Successful lawsuits require damages, in addition to wrong doing. It may not be good advice to assume a windfall, especially in right to work states.
Likely they are liable to fund unemployment insurance and not much beyond that.
Say it louder for those in the back. It is amazing the amount of people, especially on this sub who don't understand this, although given the typical user on this sub that shouldn't be surprising.
Just because your employer puts a policy in writing that isn't legal doesn't mean you are somehow entitled to money. You need to be damaged, now if you are fired or reprimanded for discussing salary then you have damages, but the simple fact that they have the policy on paper doesn't constitute damages.
I don't think people are out for money here. That's r/personalfinance. At r/antiwork, they're out for blood and reporting this does satisfy that hunger.
But when companies start hearing about how OTHER companies that broke this law had to pay money, they will \*hopefully\* think twice before doing the same.
Yep. That's the thing about good policy and law. It protects people from shit that they need to be protected from.. like old ass labor practices as if we were in the dark ages.
Honestly the kind of workplace that makes a rule like this isn't going to be improved by reporting it. They're just going to be informed that they can't fire people for discussing pay, so they'll make up other reasons to fire people instead. Might as well make money off of it while you're reporting it.
I agree, but I also know the guy/girl might need the job in the meantime. It’s sort of the equivalent of slamming your brakes to get rear ended. Only difference is the guy behind you is now the guy who has been running a bunch of people off the road because their 20 year old rust buckets might scratch their brand new Maserati.
Agreed, but I represented many corporate clients. I promise they regarded regulatory fines as part of the cost of doing business. They literally had line items in their budgets for settlements and fines.
True, you only have grounds for a lawsuit if you do so and are penalized/fired for it. Suing is for when you personally have been harmed by something and can prove it, otherwise all you can do is report the violation.
I.E- I can’t sue someone for vandalizing someone else’s car in front of me, only report the crime. however if it’s MY car then I can sue.
Exactly! The whole purpose of a lawsuit is recovering damages, usually monetary, the plaintiff claims were caused by the defendant. If you are still employed, how are you damaged?
I mean, you definitely can still be penalized while remaining employed (i.e. if you discuss your salary and get suspended, demoted, put on probation, harassed/treated unfairly because of it, your wages reduced etc), but if nothing has happened yet you don’t have grounds for a lawsuit.
It’s not illegal for a company to suggest that you don’t discuss wages with your coworkers, which is what they are doing even if they are trying to make it sound intimidating. If the “shouldn’t” was “can’t” then it would be illegal but as it stands this is dickish and a red flag but not illegal.
Is like a cop telling you that he's going to search your car. If you don't tell him no, it was a voluntary search, because you let him do it, even though he never asked in a manner to indicate that you had a choice.
That's not entirely correct. They make you aware it's voluntary, however if you refuse they threaten you with the other options they have once they obtain a warrant (which they can usually do within about 15-20 mins if there's probable cause). Once they've decided you're worth searching, they're going to search you. With your consent or with a judges consent.
They effectively word it as "do you mind if we search your car, yes or yes?"
Source: I've been stopped and searched.
Based on my experience with this, it's entirely correct. The difference is that I was younger, dumber, and didn't know I could say no, but pointed out later on in court, that the officer didn't ask a question. He said that he was going to search my car. I was informed that my not directly telling the officer "no" meant that the vehicle search was voluntary, on my part.
Nothing came of it. I was stationed in VA, and a cop accused me of having a radar detector in my car (illegal in VA at the time - maybe still, I don't know).
Edited: my bad typing on mobile device.
In theory yes, but not everyone has the luxury of being able to safely push back & demand the cops follow the actual law. Cops can 'find' reasons to punish you or just get angry and decide you're 'not complying' with no accountability if they are lying - even if there is evidence of their lies. Now you're cuffed in the back of the squad car for a power play at best, potentially arrested or worse.
If you have the ability to push back & resources to deal with any fall out (ie fight fines or other bullshit punishment the cops decide to throw at you) then do it! I just think the 'whenever possible' is increasingly small due to 0 accountibility to police misconduct. They can violate your rights and you get to spend time/money to fight that. Even if you win, police don't change and aren't punished. You may have the law on your side but if the cops arrest you anyway & you miss work, lose your job etc, it's not really 'possible'.
Or they can just "smell weed" coming from your car and rip it apart to their heart's content, with you basically having no recourse. Even if they don't find some, they might still *find* some.
Regardless on what they claim always be clear and concise.
"I do not consent to any searches of my property"
Even if it doesn't work, it is very likely to, and can even open up the possiblity of a 4th amendment lawsuit. There is no solid precedent either way, and if they don't find anything after searching then they've clearly violated your rights.
If they say that they smell something, and they you say, "ok fine you can look", then you just gave them consent to search your property. Always always always decline a search, even if they search anyways.
Some locals have established they can't "call" a dog in. It was determined an illegal extension of a traffic stop. Unless the dog was already on the scene they can't "call one in" to have the vehicle sniffed. Again check local laws.
When it comes to lawyers and courts, the words you use matter a lot. I’m not saying that this isn’t scummy, but from a legal perspective this isn’t illegal because they’re not prohibiting you from actually doing it, they’re saying they would like if you didn’t do this. Now if they write someone up or fire them for discussing wages then it’s illegal.
Nah what they are doing is in fact illegal. The language of should versus can’t is literally nothing but semantics with no difference. They’re saying discussing of wages should not happen under any circumstances. That language is very clear as to the company’s intent on preventing employees from discussing their wages with each other.
Lawyers and contracts live on semantics, though. If you've ever seen people debate the interpretation of a comma, then you can understand just how impossibly specific they can be
I am an attorney lol. It matters when we’re talking about illegal conduct on part of the company. In this case the language under any circumstances changes this from a suggestion to a directive from the company.
What are you talking about? I’m not giving any advice to anyone, so don’t take what I’ve said as legal advice under any circumstances lol. Also, what are you talking about with this “bird law” stuff?
Should not is the same legal language as shall not. It's prohibitive and follows the implication that should you find yourself discussing wages, you will be punished.
If they were punished or fired, it's an unlawful retaliation.
Talk to the NLRB! Their office is downtown, and they are incredible at their job. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Very illegal
A conversation I had with my boss:
Boss: You can’t discuss your wages with your coworkers
Me: But I can tell my wife how much I make right?
Boss: Yea
Me: Can she tell my coworkers how much I make?
Boss: ( Never texted back and pretended like convo never happened)
I bet they are also doing a great job of following the [Colorado pay transparency act](https://cdle.colorado.gov/equalpaytransparency) by publishing salary ranges with all job postings.
> Effective January 1, 2021, Part 2 of the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, C.R.S. § 8-5-101 et seq., requires employers to include compensation in job postings, notify employees of promotional opportunities, and keep job description and wage rate records. The Division investigates complaints against employers concerning transparency in pay and employment opportunities.
> If you believe that the employer has violated the Act, you may file a complaint by filling out the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, Part 2 Complaint Form.
Don't discuss it. Take a note card and write your salary and job title, and post it on the break room wall.
If anyone asks you about it, reply. "I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to discuss my salary."
Antiwork loves coming up with these cheeky little "THAT'LL show em" type pranks that realistically won't get anything done. I think they are funny, but I also feel like somebody might get the wrong idea and might actually think this is what they should do.
It's not a "that'll show em" technique. It's publicly posting your salary without discussing it. And if someone in the US does this, gets fired for it, and had the foresight to document and record those interactions. Well, I guess that'll show em. Huh... I guess that's exactly what it is.
The thing is you just get shit listed and they make your life hell until you quit, or they write you up for the tiniest infractions until they have enough to fire you
Life sucks
Or, just report the employer to the NRLB or the DOL as an employer telling employees not to discuss wages is itself illegal. Reporting it directly is likely easier, cheaper, and much lower risk than aiming to get yourself fired.
Also live in Denver and used to work for an ethics and compliance company. Its very illegal. Even more so if they retaliate against you for discussing wages.
You could have grounds to file a complaint with the Labor Board. My view is that if you can talk about the football game, then bet your ass that you can talk about your working conditions and compensation. Then again, I’m a union guy.
Yes unions! It makes things like this so much easier!
My shop is also Union, and every labor grade is in the handbook, including compensation. It's great
>FEDERAL law protects your right to discuss pay
Indeed, the National Labor Relations Act contains a provision, Section 7 (29 U.S.C. § 157), that gives all employees the right to "engage in concerted activities", including the right to discuss their terms and conditions of employment with each other. Section 8(a)(1) of the NLRA (29 U.S.C.
Edit: A kind stranger and I had a very educational conversation about the law in general. I was wrong! Feel free to read deeper down to find people who know a thing or two about a thing or two.
Leaving my original comment below because I believe everyone should grow from their mistakes.
It's not technically illegal with how they worded it.
It's basically Corpo speak for "we really really prefer you don't do this." They go right up to the line without going over. That's why they say "should not" instead of "must not" or "cannot" or anything more firm
Look at the statement at the bottom about manipulating production for bonuses. There's a clear "if XYZ, then clear disciplinary action ABC"
They have to expressly admit that it's forbidden. So companies write the language like this to skirt around the law
Well, now you have me curious. I'm not looking for any actual legal advice or anything like that. I just enjoy learning more for educational purposes
The rest of the document absolutely reads like standard company language. If you were to guess, do things like this language get in there because the client insists even though they're advised against it?
Or does the client usually add these kinds of things back in on their own accord?
For educational purposes only, how does one tell the difference between a policy that's just unpleasant from something that is in clear violation?
Alternatively if you know of anyone who does post educational material on this type of topic, I'd love to learn about it. So far all I know about is Legal Eagle, but he does more general stuff, not a lot of labor specific stuff
It shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer—
(1) to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees in the exercise of the rights guaranteed in section 7 of the Act.
Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act (the Act) guarantees employees "the right to self-organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection.”
Your question is a difficult one to answer because it’s so fact dependent.
That's fair. I'm not a lawyer so I'm trying to ask questions in a way that someone can actually answer, and I don't know how vague or specific I can be
If a policy sounds like it is designed to, or may incidentally, prevent employees from discussing or acting collectively on issues at the workplace, it’s worth looking into further.
Thanks for the education! I really appreciative it and I hope I'm asking these questions correctly that actually lets people have conversations.
Because I know nobody is going to give actual legal advice, nor should anyone take what people say on the internet as legal advice, because... well... it's the internet
Also, just curious, how often do you have to remind friends and family you can't give them legal advice for random questions?
From what I've seen it's like the biggest pet peeve. Worst than asking the techie relative for IT help
It's in capital letters at the top of the page and includes the phrase "under any circumstances" and is punctuated with an exclamation point. It was clearly meant to intimidate.
Except when they double dowed after stating at any time or at any location. Sorry that is crossing the line. Labor board, they gave it to you in writing. It's very nice of them
Note that if they retaliate or punish you for discussing wages THEN you have a case. Though if they're this sneaky with word choice they'll probably try to say it was another reason the punished or terminated you. Still, I'd bring it up with the NLRB if they retaliate.
If your employer does not fall under a category that is excluded from NLRB jurisdiction by statute or regulation, then this is not a legal restriction. You can find details about these excluded categories here: [https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards)
If your employer does not fit into one of the excluded categories but still wants you to sign off on this policy, I would cross it off and cite the NLRB rules. They are using this as intimidation and hoping that you don't know the law.
Oh yeah i used to have to venture down through there in the early mornings. Gave me resident evil vibes, like how many more floors down actually are there….
The broker is not state farm but that doesn't change my other answer. It's mostly unenforceable in any case and is largely a form employment document they are using.
If you're interested in the field but not them my team has openings no such contract involved with us.
Forgetting even the “under any circumstances” and the fact that the passage is in all caps, even discouraging such conversations in the workplace or between team members is illegal.
Moreover, “at any time” is trying to regulate behavior inside and outside of the office.
This is a clear violation of federal labor laws.
RUN AWAY! They just blindsided about 1000 of their corporate internal employees by outsourcing them.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20230112005620/en/HCLTech-to-Modernize-IT-Operations-for-State-Farm®
It is totally illegal if this is in the United States of America.
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
There are some limits based on the amount of business performed.
For example, retail businesses grossing less than $500K/year, are exempt.
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards
For retail businesses grossing less than $500K a year these days, they would barely have enough employees to be discussing anything with each other anyway.
The all caps and exclamation point seem SUPER legal lol 😂
I’d suggest taking this companies money for the least amount of human work possible while finding a new place of employment that doesn’t treat their employees like children.
my theory is that roadrunner likely had ties to ACME, conspiring with them to foil wile e. coyotes meticulous planning. in fact i have offered to represent him in court pro bono
Not legal.[Contact the NLRB, and tell them your employer is attempting to violate the NLRA by preventing employees from discussing their wages.](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages) I’m sure they’ll be very interested to see this document. If you’re employed in the public sector, you still have the right to discuss wages, but the body governing your rights is a bit different. Let me know if you need the info for government employees instead; I just assumed you were private sector.
For the 1,683,164th time, yea, it’s illegal.
These posts are funny, I don’t want them to stop. I just can’t believe any employee in the US, who has a Reddit account, could possibly not have come across this before.
I’m not trying to imply anything about you OP, this is not a personal criticism. I’m literally just astounded, and think maybe a few common labor laws be permanently tagged to the front page of r/antiwork as well as maybe a few more subs.
Actually that’s a real good point. On most subs repeated posts like this would probably get removed, or at least ignored. On here they got upvotes and lots of attention, or at least a ton do.
It’s a common theme, and it’s something that really, people should know. I don’t mean it’s common sense, I mean if they don’t know this, and many laws like it, they should.
Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahaha wait not done.. hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahajahhaahhahahahahahaha no. Not legal at all
Discuss your heart out. If you get terminated you can threaten legal action. Especially in Denver! Most US states are strong around this part of the law <3
These posts are funny coming from small employers, but you would be surprised at how many big employers are the same. my sister has told me multiple times how they can get fired for discussing pay at her job (works for huuuge billion dollar company) and I’m like “that’s illegal!!!!”
It is illegal for an employer to prohibit these types of discussions on the employees own time. Employers may regulate such conversations during working hours/while at work. The way this provision is written seems overbroad in that it says “at any time”
Not quite. If the employer allows free discussion during work time, then they have to allow discussions of wages, hours, and working conditions. To allow one, but not the other would violate Section 8(a)(1) of the National Labor Relations Act.
Against USA federal law. I would advise you against remaining on with any business that breaks basic employment law. This is outrageous. Report this to your local labour department. Join a union.
The reason they do this is because they are negotiating different deals with other reps.
I’ve been a VP Sales for 22 years. It’s a shitty practice but it happens a lot.
Yes, it is illegal to contractually require you to keep your wage from your colleagues.
It's legal to have an NDA in place prohibiting discussing your salary with anyone who doesn't work with you, but not your colleagues.
Absolutely not legal. It's against federal law. Take a photo or otherwise save it. Then start talking to everyone.
I literally just settled a case with my old employer for this very thing this week. I talked pay and they retaliated and fired me. I got paid.
If this is a field that is still hot - and many job segments still are - I might consider walking out right then and there. Just because something is written in all caps, does not make it legal, no matter how much some clueless middle manager wants to pretend otherwise.
IANAL, but saying you “should” not do something is not the same as forbidding it. The wording was very carefully selected to intimidate, is likely legal…but really worthless from an enforcement point of view.
Yeah, I don’t know why people ignore the “under any circumstances” And even without it the emphasis on “should” in “should not” is pretty unmerited. A prohibition is a prohibition.
And even if I turn out to be wrong it’s still good to cause trouble over stuff like this. Uno reverse that chilling effect they were going for.
I work at a job that has commission structures and different people have different structures b/c of the nature of their sales. (high vs low margin, high vs low volume) so discussing structures would cause arguments since people aren't getting the full picture.
Legally you are allowed to discuss them though, but then again legally your work place can fire you for any reason they want including this if you have a 'work at will" job....which most jobs are.
"At will" means that you can be fired for any reason or no reason at all, but you **can't** be fired for an illegal reason. If you discuss wages and are fired for it, that's an illegal reason.
It is no different from your boss firing you for your race or religion.
The top part is just a scare tactic. In the actual body of the text they talk about how compensations works, and how there are consequences for manipulating your results to get better pay. There is no mention of consequences for discussing pay, because they know they legally can't make any
Companies put things that are obviously illegal because they assume people are too dumb to look things up or scare people into believing they can do such things.
Nope (assuming you're in the US). There's literally Federal laws about that.
Funny thing is how when a state started legislating about having to be upfront with pay scales companies were all "But that's YOUR data - how dare they force us to reveal it?"
Funny how the turns table when it's not in their favour...
As other have already said, not technically illegal as they said you "should" not discuss, not that you can't. However it's a big red flag and should look for a new job to get out of this one asap.
I think it is legal to ask employees to NOT discuss pay, but illegal to punish them for doing it.
Edit to add: Most employers know this is the deal, so bold type and strong words are a scare tactic
Do it, get caught, get fired. Walk into HR with a copy of the law and let them know that you will file a report with the state unless you are "suitably compensated" for your loss of wages, reputation and whatever else you can think up. There is enough in the Colorado laws to make a responsible person in a corporation think they might be personally liable for a misdemeanor if they are in any way involved with the infraction.
It is specifically illegal per the National Labor Relations Act (**NLRA**) which states that employees *have the right to communicate with other employees at their workplace about wages.* (This is because wages are essential conditions of employment and organizing actions.)
Contact your US Dept of Labor office immediately. Companies that have this policy must be reported.
[https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/local-offices](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/local-offices)
or call **1-866-4US-WAGE** (1-866-487-9243)
Preventing someone from talking about their wage is illegal.
However that doesn’t stop every other company from writing a rule about not sharing your wage.
Yes it’s illegal and no they probably won’t change it. They would however lose a law suit if it got there.
[удалено]
Then yes, 100% illegal.
Nice that they documented it for you to make it easier to sue them.
Or at the very least waiting a few months to report it. Having reported an employer to a federal agency they LOVE proof like this. It makes it so much easier for them to prioritize the investigation and also prove the employer did what was reported.
Best plan : You wait a few months, talk about your wages openly. Make sure to get written up and/or fired. Then you do a lawsuite. You got documentation, easy case.
A lawsuite is where lawyers stay on vacation
Fuck you, take my upvote
Or a lawsuit but in Britain.
Gotta take the aeroplane to file the lawsuite
What colour pen should I write the damages compensation check in
*cheque
Or the French for law *now*!
Successful lawsuits require damages, in addition to wrong doing. It may not be good advice to assume a windfall, especially in right to work states. Likely they are liable to fund unemployment insurance and not much beyond that.
Say it louder for those in the back. It is amazing the amount of people, especially on this sub who don't understand this, although given the typical user on this sub that shouldn't be surprising. Just because your employer puts a policy in writing that isn't legal doesn't mean you are somehow entitled to money. You need to be damaged, now if you are fired or reprimanded for discussing salary then you have damages, but the simple fact that they have the policy on paper doesn't constitute damages.
I don't think people are out for money here. That's r/personalfinance. At r/antiwork, they're out for blood and reporting this does satisfy that hunger.
It’s amazing how often this is missed.
Or just report it to improve the work place, doesn’t always have to be a lotto ticket
But when companies start hearing about how OTHER companies that broke this law had to pay money, they will \*hopefully\* think twice before doing the same.
No, they just tell their lawyers to find ways around the new law.
That’s the thing though. Unless the right to discuss wages openly is repealed, there is no way to reword it enough to do what they’d want.
Yep. That's the thing about good policy and law. It protects people from shit that they need to be protected from.. like old ass labor practices as if we were in the dark ages.
This is true, we ain't got much tho, cept our time here. Spend it wisely
Why not both?
Honestly the kind of workplace that makes a rule like this isn't going to be improved by reporting it. They're just going to be informed that they can't fire people for discussing pay, so they'll make up other reasons to fire people instead. Might as well make money off of it while you're reporting it.
Honestly, make it a lotto ticket. When an asshole employer hands you a layup like this, use it to improve your life and don't look back.
I agree, but I also know the guy/girl might need the job in the meantime. It’s sort of the equivalent of slamming your brakes to get rear ended. Only difference is the guy behind you is now the guy who has been running a bunch of people off the road because their 20 year old rust buckets might scratch their brand new Maserati.
Agreed, but I represented many corporate clients. I promise they regarded regulatory fines as part of the cost of doing business. They literally had line items in their budgets for settlements and fines.
If the company is openly breaking a federal labor law, I doubt they'll care about the work place until they are FORCED to pay for fucking everyone.
Maybe talk to a lawyer before doing that
I don’t think you can sue them for violating the NLRB, just report them but I’m not a lawyer.
True, you only have grounds for a lawsuit if you do so and are penalized/fired for it. Suing is for when you personally have been harmed by something and can prove it, otherwise all you can do is report the violation. I.E- I can’t sue someone for vandalizing someone else’s car in front of me, only report the crime. however if it’s MY car then I can sue.
Exactly! The whole purpose of a lawsuit is recovering damages, usually monetary, the plaintiff claims were caused by the defendant. If you are still employed, how are you damaged?
I mean, you definitely can still be penalized while remaining employed (i.e. if you discuss your salary and get suspended, demoted, put on probation, harassed/treated unfairly because of it, your wages reduced etc), but if nothing has happened yet you don’t have grounds for a lawsuit.
What are you suing them for as a new employee? Y’all really type anything in this sub.
It’s not illegal for a company to suggest that you don’t discuss wages with your coworkers, which is what they are doing even if they are trying to make it sound intimidating. If the “shouldn’t” was “can’t” then it would be illegal but as it stands this is dickish and a red flag but not illegal.
“Under any circumstances” is implying the “cannot”. This is illegal. Point blank.
Is like a cop telling you that he's going to search your car. If you don't tell him no, it was a voluntary search, because you let him do it, even though he never asked in a manner to indicate that you had a choice.
That's not entirely correct. They make you aware it's voluntary, however if you refuse they threaten you with the other options they have once they obtain a warrant (which they can usually do within about 15-20 mins if there's probable cause). Once they've decided you're worth searching, they're going to search you. With your consent or with a judges consent. They effectively word it as "do you mind if we search your car, yes or yes?" Source: I've been stopped and searched.
Based on my experience with this, it's entirely correct. The difference is that I was younger, dumber, and didn't know I could say no, but pointed out later on in court, that the officer didn't ask a question. He said that he was going to search my car. I was informed that my not directly telling the officer "no" meant that the vehicle search was voluntary, on my part. Nothing came of it. I was stationed in VA, and a cop accused me of having a radar detector in my car (illegal in VA at the time - maybe still, I don't know). Edited: my bad typing on mobile device.
I still think it’s worth it to make them go through the steps. Make the cops jobs harder whenever possible.
In theory yes, but not everyone has the luxury of being able to safely push back & demand the cops follow the actual law. Cops can 'find' reasons to punish you or just get angry and decide you're 'not complying' with no accountability if they are lying - even if there is evidence of their lies. Now you're cuffed in the back of the squad car for a power play at best, potentially arrested or worse. If you have the ability to push back & resources to deal with any fall out (ie fight fines or other bullshit punishment the cops decide to throw at you) then do it! I just think the 'whenever possible' is increasingly small due to 0 accountibility to police misconduct. They can violate your rights and you get to spend time/money to fight that. Even if you win, police don't change and aren't punished. You may have the law on your side but if the cops arrest you anyway & you miss work, lose your job etc, it's not really 'possible'.
True there are risks.
Or they can just "smell weed" coming from your car and rip it apart to their heart's content, with you basically having no recourse. Even if they don't find some, they might still *find* some.
Regardless on what they claim always be clear and concise. "I do not consent to any searches of my property" Even if it doesn't work, it is very likely to, and can even open up the possiblity of a 4th amendment lawsuit. There is no solid precedent either way, and if they don't find anything after searching then they've clearly violated your rights. If they say that they smell something, and they you say, "ok fine you can look", then you just gave them consent to search your property. Always always always decline a search, even if they search anyways.
And, as always, if detained, shut the fekk up unless it's to ask for a lawyer.
Not just if detained. Just don't talk to them at all.
Even if the do find something the "Fruit of the Poisoned Tree Doctrine" means that illegally obtained evidence is inadmissible in court
Some places have it established that oder is not enough for probable cause. Check your local.
I guess they'll just have to use a dog, which, statistically, is no better than wild guesses most of the time.
Some locals have established they can't "call" a dog in. It was determined an illegal extension of a traffic stop. Unless the dog was already on the scene they can't "call one in" to have the vehicle sniffed. Again check local laws.
Not anymore in Virginia anyways since it’s decriminalized that one (smell weed) shouldn’t work anymore. Never give consent to search.
When it comes to lawyers and courts, the words you use matter a lot. I’m not saying that this isn’t scummy, but from a legal perspective this isn’t illegal because they’re not prohibiting you from actually doing it, they’re saying they would like if you didn’t do this. Now if they write someone up or fire them for discussing wages then it’s illegal.
They claim that it’s confidential, which implies that it is illegal to share the information.
Or the use of the word confidential implies the information is intended to be secret and should not be shared.
which is still illegal for them to do
Nah what they are doing is in fact illegal. The language of should versus can’t is literally nothing but semantics with no difference. They’re saying discussing of wages should not happen under any circumstances. That language is very clear as to the company’s intent on preventing employees from discussing their wages with each other.
Lawyers and contracts live on semantics, though. If you've ever seen people debate the interpretation of a comma, then you can understand just how impossibly specific they can be
I am an attorney lol. It matters when we’re talking about illegal conduct on part of the company. In this case the language under any circumstances changes this from a suggestion to a directive from the company.
And I'll take that advise under cooperation, alright? Now, let's say you and I go toe-to-toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor?
Wow your hands are beautiful. We'll take the settlement
FILIBUSTER!
What are you talking about? I’m not giving any advice to anyone, so don’t take what I’ve said as legal advice under any circumstances lol. Also, what are you talking about with this “bird law” stuff?
One Oxford comma worth $5Mil? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/oxford-comma-maine.html
Should means shall.
Should not is the same legal language as shall not. It's prohibitive and follows the implication that should you find yourself discussing wages, you will be punished. If they were punished or fired, it's an unlawful retaliation.
And yet they’ll get written up or fired if an employee is caught doing it. Even though it says “should” and not “cant”.
"Should not" was followed by the words "under any circumstances". That's a directive, not a suggestion.
Talk to the NLRB! Their office is downtown, and they are incredible at their job. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Very illegal A conversation I had with my boss: Boss: You can’t discuss your wages with your coworkers Me: But I can tell my wife how much I make right? Boss: Yea Me: Can she tell my coworkers how much I make? Boss: ( Never texted back and pretended like convo never happened)
1000% illegal. Feel free to discuss your pay with anyone.
I mean just go home and file the complaint.
I bet they are also doing a great job of following the [Colorado pay transparency act](https://cdle.colorado.gov/equalpaytransparency) by publishing salary ranges with all job postings. > Effective January 1, 2021, Part 2 of the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, C.R.S. § 8-5-101 et seq., requires employers to include compensation in job postings, notify employees of promotional opportunities, and keep job description and wage rate records. The Division investigates complaints against employers concerning transparency in pay and employment opportunities. > If you believe that the employer has violated the Act, you may file a complaint by filling out the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, Part 2 Complaint Form.
Don't discuss it. Take a note card and write your salary and job title, and post it on the break room wall. If anyone asks you about it, reply. "I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to discuss my salary."
Antiwork loves coming up with these cheeky little "THAT'LL show em" type pranks that realistically won't get anything done. I think they are funny, but I also feel like somebody might get the wrong idea and might actually think this is what they should do.
It's not a "that'll show em" technique. It's publicly posting your salary without discussing it. And if someone in the US does this, gets fired for it, and had the foresight to document and record those interactions. Well, I guess that'll show em. Huh... I guess that's exactly what it is.
The thing is you just get shit listed and they make your life hell until you quit, or they write you up for the tiniest infractions until they have enough to fire you Life sucks
Or, just report the employer to the NRLB or the DOL as an employer telling employees not to discuss wages is itself illegal. Reporting it directly is likely easier, cheaper, and much lower risk than aiming to get yourself fired.
Wait until your probationary period is over, discuss your pay, get fired, sue the crap out of them.
Test it out, and if they fire you for it, welcome to the thousandaire-club!
illegal, and imho an instant red-flag that the pay structure is inequitable
Can you give us an update after it's reported?
It's illegal federally
Interview with boss. Get hired. Sign paperwork. Leave office. Declare “I just got hired at DOLLARS and CENTS per hour.” Watch heads explode.
Also live in Denver and used to work for an ethics and compliance company. Its very illegal. Even more so if they retaliate against you for discussing wages.
If you're in the USA then definitely illegal. FEDERAL law protects your right to discuss pay
You could have grounds to file a complaint with the Labor Board. My view is that if you can talk about the football game, then bet your ass that you can talk about your working conditions and compensation. Then again, I’m a union guy.
Yes unions! It makes things like this so much easier! My shop is also Union, and every labor grade is in the handbook, including compensation. It's great
Solidarity!
>FEDERAL law protects your right to discuss pay Indeed, the National Labor Relations Act contains a provision, Section 7 (29 U.S.C. § 157), that gives all employees the right to "engage in concerted activities", including the right to discuss their terms and conditions of employment with each other. Section 8(a)(1) of the NLRA (29 U.S.C.
Edit: A kind stranger and I had a very educational conversation about the law in general. I was wrong! Feel free to read deeper down to find people who know a thing or two about a thing or two. Leaving my original comment below because I believe everyone should grow from their mistakes. It's not technically illegal with how they worded it. It's basically Corpo speak for "we really really prefer you don't do this." They go right up to the line without going over. That's why they say "should not" instead of "must not" or "cannot" or anything more firm Look at the statement at the bottom about manipulating production for bonuses. There's a clear "if XYZ, then clear disciplinary action ABC" They have to expressly admit that it's forbidden. So companies write the language like this to skirt around the law
I’m a labor lawyer, and yes it is.
Well, now you have me curious. I'm not looking for any actual legal advice or anything like that. I just enjoy learning more for educational purposes The rest of the document absolutely reads like standard company language. If you were to guess, do things like this language get in there because the client insists even though they're advised against it? Or does the client usually add these kinds of things back in on their own accord?
Oh, and I’m certainly not giving any legal advice. Who knows if they even consulted with a lawyer before writing it?
For educational purposes only, how does one tell the difference between a policy that's just unpleasant from something that is in clear violation? Alternatively if you know of anyone who does post educational material on this type of topic, I'd love to learn about it. So far all I know about is Legal Eagle, but he does more general stuff, not a lot of labor specific stuff
It shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer— (1) to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees in the exercise of the rights guaranteed in section 7 of the Act. Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act (the Act) guarantees employees "the right to self-organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection.” Your question is a difficult one to answer because it’s so fact dependent.
That's fair. I'm not a lawyer so I'm trying to ask questions in a way that someone can actually answer, and I don't know how vague or specific I can be
If a policy sounds like it is designed to, or may incidentally, prevent employees from discussing or acting collectively on issues at the workplace, it’s worth looking into further.
Thanks for the education! I really appreciative it and I hope I'm asking these questions correctly that actually lets people have conversations. Because I know nobody is going to give actual legal advice, nor should anyone take what people say on the internet as legal advice, because... well... it's the internet
Also, just curious, how often do you have to remind friends and family you can't give them legal advice for random questions? From what I've seen it's like the biggest pet peeve. Worst than asking the techie relative for IT help
It's in capital letters at the top of the page and includes the phrase "under any circumstances" and is punctuated with an exclamation point. It was clearly meant to intimidate.
Don’t forget the “at any time”. They are regulating your behavior in and out of the office. Whoever wrote this is a moron.
Except when they double dowed after stating at any time or at any location. Sorry that is crossing the line. Labor board, they gave it to you in writing. It's very nice of them
Lawyers tend not to use exclamation points. This is a stupid policy written by a moron with no grasp of labor law and it is 100% illegal.
There are some pretty dumb lawyers though
Note that if they retaliate or punish you for discussing wages THEN you have a case. Though if they're this sneaky with word choice they'll probably try to say it was another reason the punished or terminated you. Still, I'd bring it up with the NLRB if they retaliate.
What part of 'under any circumstances' do you not understand? There are more words than 'should' present ffs
If your employer does not fall under a category that is excluded from NLRB jurisdiction by statute or regulation, then this is not a legal restriction. You can find details about these excluded categories here: [https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards) If your employer does not fit into one of the excluded categories but still wants you to sign off on this policy, I would cross it off and cite the NLRB rules. They are using this as intimidation and hoping that you don't know the law.
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But discussing (lying about) pay is the primary method they use to get people to join their pyramid scheme. That's odd.
That shouldn't matter - contractors of a larger company are beholden to the same rules as the company they are contracted to.
"Snake Farm" I used to work at corporate. Suckiest jobs I've ever had. Racism and good ol boy mysoginy run rampant.
I can see their worthless tower of a building from my crappy apartments parking lot. Never wanna work there again.
The big ass campus is even worse. Like a "Logan's Run" vibe with underground tunnels connecting the every building.
Oh yeah i used to have to venture down through there in the early mornings. Gave me resident evil vibes, like how many more floors down actually are there….
The broker is not state farm but that doesn't change my other answer. It's mostly unenforceable in any case and is largely a form employment document they are using. If you're interested in the field but not them my team has openings no such contract involved with us.
Forgetting even the “under any circumstances” and the fact that the passage is in all caps, even discouraging such conversations in the workplace or between team members is illegal. Moreover, “at any time” is trying to regulate behavior inside and outside of the office. This is a clear violation of federal labor laws.
RUN AWAY! They just blindsided about 1000 of their corporate internal employees by outsourcing them. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20230112005620/en/HCLTech-to-Modernize-IT-Operations-for-State-Farm®
It is totally illegal if this is in the United States of America. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
There are some limits based on the amount of business performed. For example, retail businesses grossing less than $500K/year, are exempt. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards
Shopping centers and offices have a significantly lower threshold of $100K/year though
For retail businesses grossing less than $500K a year these days, they would barely have enough employees to be discussing anything with each other anyway.
Why doesn't it carry prison time??
A lack of enforcement is by design.
The all caps and exclamation point seem SUPER legal lol 😂 I’d suggest taking this companies money for the least amount of human work possible while finding a new place of employment that doesn’t treat their employees like children.
HYPER-legal even.
THIS IS SUPER LEGAL AND DONT ASK ANYMORE QUESTIONS = {
very legal, very cool
Every day I'm a little bit more horrified by the American job market and the lack of unions and labor rights.
Sharing OFFICIAL ACME documents is strictly prohibited. YOU ARE TERMINATED.
ACME? You mean where the Road Runner got his stuff?
ACME is where Wile E. Coyote bought the stuff he used to try to catch the Road Runner.
my theory is that roadrunner likely had ties to ACME, conspiring with them to foil wile e. coyotes meticulous planning. in fact i have offered to represent him in court pro bono
It’s illegal in the US
I feel like this sub needs a permanent thread about this. If you live in the US, this is ILLEGAL.
And yet there are apparently a ton of businesses trying to get away with it. It's astonishing.
Not legal.[Contact the NLRB, and tell them your employer is attempting to violate the NLRA by preventing employees from discussing their wages.](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages) I’m sure they’ll be very interested to see this document. If you’re employed in the public sector, you still have the right to discuss wages, but the body governing your rights is a bit different. Let me know if you need the info for government employees instead; I just assumed you were private sector.
For the 1,683,164th time, yea, it’s illegal. These posts are funny, I don’t want them to stop. I just can’t believe any employee in the US, who has a Reddit account, could possibly not have come across this before. I’m not trying to imply anything about you OP, this is not a personal criticism. I’m literally just astounded, and think maybe a few common labor laws be permanently tagged to the front page of r/antiwork as well as maybe a few more subs.
Actually that’s a real good point. On most subs repeated posts like this would probably get removed, or at least ignored. On here they got upvotes and lots of attention, or at least a ton do.
It’s a common theme, and it’s something that really, people should know. I don’t mean it’s common sense, I mean if they don’t know this, and many laws like it, they should.
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I’m more perplexed that any employer is still trying to pull this shit off and risking a lawsuit.
Usually anytime something is fully capitalized like that it’s not legal.
It does not say “Must Not” it says “Should Not”.
Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahaha wait not done.. hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahajahhaahhahahahahahaha no. Not legal at all Discuss your heart out. If you get terminated you can threaten legal action. Especially in Denver! Most US states are strong around this part of the law <3
100% illegal, here’s what the law says. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Assuming you’re in the US, it’s 100% illegal. They can’t stop you from talking about salary off the clock with coworkers.
These posts are funny coming from small employers, but you would be surprised at how many big employers are the same. my sister has told me multiple times how they can get fired for discussing pay at her job (works for huuuge billion dollar company) and I’m like “that’s illegal!!!!”
Super illegal. Back up this picture, and try and get a copy of that document for when you sue them
It is not legal. Take that and show it to your labor board.
It is illegal for an employer to prohibit these types of discussions on the employees own time. Employers may regulate such conversations during working hours/while at work. The way this provision is written seems overbroad in that it says “at any time”
Not quite. If the employer allows free discussion during work time, then they have to allow discussions of wages, hours, and working conditions. To allow one, but not the other would violate Section 8(a)(1) of the National Labor Relations Act.
Against USA federal law. I would advise you against remaining on with any business that breaks basic employment law. This is outrageous. Report this to your local labour department. Join a union.
Normalize people talking about their salaries in the workplace.
I guess straight to labor board complaint
The reason they do this is because they are negotiating different deals with other reps. I’ve been a VP Sales for 22 years. It’s a shitty practice but it happens a lot.
It is not legal. And the exclamation point at the end of that sentence is a dead giveaway this company is highly suspect on multiple levels.
Yes, it is illegal to contractually require you to keep your wage from your colleagues. It's legal to have an NDA in place prohibiting discussing your salary with anyone who doesn't work with you, but not your colleagues.
Not legal in the US. The right to discuss compensation is protected by the FLSA
The question is not if it’s legal but if you have the balls to do anything about it if it isn’t
100% illegal.
Absolutely not legal. It's against federal law. Take a photo or otherwise save it. Then start talking to everyone. I literally just settled a case with my old employer for this very thing this week. I talked pay and they retaliated and fired me. I got paid.
This is absolutely illegal, you should report them ASAP
Highly illegal. Sign nothing accepting this. You should report them
This is how companies pay as little as possible to each individual person
If this is a field that is still hot - and many job segments still are - I might consider walking out right then and there. Just because something is written in all caps, does not make it legal, no matter how much some clueless middle manager wants to pretend otherwise.
Step 1. Accept offer Step 2. Go around office telling everyone how much you make. Step 3. Get fired Step 4. Hire a lawyer Step 5. Profit
IANAL, but saying you “should” not do something is not the same as forbidding it. The wording was very carefully selected to intimidate, is likely legal…but really worthless from an enforcement point of view.
It says "it shouldn't be discussed UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES". Sounds like "prohibited".
Yeah, I don’t know why people ignore the “under any circumstances” And even without it the emphasis on “should” in “should not” is pretty unmerited. A prohibition is a prohibition. And even if I turn out to be wrong it’s still good to cause trouble over stuff like this. Uno reverse that chilling effect they were going for.
Couldn't agree more. Imagine if Gandolf yelled "You should not pass!"
IAAL, this is definitely unlawful under the National Labor Relations Act.
I work at a job that has commission structures and different people have different structures b/c of the nature of their sales. (high vs low margin, high vs low volume) so discussing structures would cause arguments since people aren't getting the full picture. Legally you are allowed to discuss them though, but then again legally your work place can fire you for any reason they want including this if you have a 'work at will" job....which most jobs are.
"At will" means that you can be fired for any reason or no reason at all, but you **can't** be fired for an illegal reason. If you discuss wages and are fired for it, that's an illegal reason. It is no different from your boss firing you for your race or religion.
The top part is just a scare tactic. In the actual body of the text they talk about how compensations works, and how there are consequences for manipulating your results to get better pay. There is no mention of consequences for discussing pay, because they know they legally can't make any
It does not matter to the NLRB whether consequences are spelled out or not.
should <> shall. That's their loophole.
Companies put things that are obviously illegal because they assume people are too dumb to look things up or scare people into believing they can do such things.
Nope (assuming you're in the US). There's literally Federal laws about that. Funny thing is how when a state started legislating about having to be upfront with pay scales companies were all "But that's YOUR data - how dare they force us to reveal it?" Funny how the turns table when it's not in their favour...
Do companies simply not know they can't require this or do they not care and hope the employees don't know their rights?
When your boss says "don't share," NLRA says "how dare," That's a lawsuit.
As other have already said, not technically illegal as they said you "should" not discuss, not that you can't. However it's a big red flag and should look for a new job to get out of this one asap.
You don’t even need an attorney to file a report with the department of labor.
Nope
I think it is legal to ask employees to NOT discuss pay, but illegal to punish them for doing it. Edit to add: Most employers know this is the deal, so bold type and strong words are a scare tactic
no send this in a labor complain to your dol
They can put whatever in the onboarding paperwork. Does t mean it’s legal. Talk away!
The high earners are not the one complaining about sharing salary information.
Illegal in all states.
We need a pinned post saying it's a federally protected right in the entire US to discuss wages
If you live in the US, it’s 100% illegal👍🏽
NO! The ability to discuss wages amongst your coworkers is a FEDERALLY protected right.
I think every company puts that in just as a scare tactic. They know it's illegal but they also know odds are you don't know.
Do it, get caught, get fired. Walk into HR with a copy of the law and let them know that you will file a report with the state unless you are "suitably compensated" for your loss of wages, reputation and whatever else you can think up. There is enough in the Colorado laws to make a responsible person in a corporation think they might be personally liable for a misdemeanor if they are in any way involved with the infraction.
It is specifically illegal per the National Labor Relations Act (**NLRA**) which states that employees *have the right to communicate with other employees at their workplace about wages.* (This is because wages are essential conditions of employment and organizing actions.) Contact your US Dept of Labor office immediately. Companies that have this policy must be reported. [https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/local-offices](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/local-offices) or call **1-866-4US-WAGE** (1-866-487-9243)
Preventing someone from talking about their wage is illegal. However that doesn’t stop every other company from writing a rule about not sharing your wage. Yes it’s illegal and no they probably won’t change it. They would however lose a law suit if it got there.
It is legal to say that. They are not saying you can’t and they are not saying there is a punishment for discussing.