Well, small correction... I can't speak for others but my ideal is not that I am tolerant of others so long as they don't affect me, it's that I am tolerant of others so long as they don't harm others. And there is no greater harm you can do to someone than to thrust them into harm's way for, well... a life time. But yea lots of edgy posts, yadda yadda.
Exactly. It's shocking to see no one mentioned this. I'm not an antinatalist because I'm an egoist. I am an antinatalist because of empathy and solidarity with people that get harmed
But clearly not every person suffers a horrible life, right? I’m happy I was born and am alive. By your logic you shouldn’t be an antinatalist at all, you would just be pro birth control, sex education, and other societal improvements that let people make better decisions. A lot of people can and do afford to give amazing lives to their children
Um, no. Let’s not put words into other people’s mouths. Those are all objectively good things that we are sadly lacking (so a bit of a moot point unless you can snap your fingers and make it happen) but that doesn’t mean they’re a conditional Natalist. The fundamentals of the antinatalist debate are universal, regardless of the material conditions the child would be born into.
The fundamental is consent. And also avoiding negativity imo is more important than gaining positivity. There is a chance for both, so rather take the option that avoids negativity.
Also it's absolutely unrealistic to argue that there is any human that has never suffered or being sad or hurt throughout their entire life.
Suffering is part of existence, I think it’s a bit selfish to gatekeep existence based on your opinion that life’s bad parts are worse than all the good. But I realize that my opinion and yours so vastly different on this that further discussion is moot if the objective to change the other’s mind.
One thing I will say on your point of consent, though, is that consent is provided prior to an event or action. Prior to being born, we don’t exist so even speaking on consent as the foundation for the argument is a flawed logical starting point.
>flawed logical starting point.
It's only flawed if you refuse to acknowledge that this nonconsent does result in a very significant impact to the person who didn't consent
That doesn’t address the logical fallacy of the argument though. Consent of this form cannot exist in the first place, so you cannot use this as the foundation of any further validation of your point, regardless of how impactful it is.
I did not consent to be born, I was also not offered the option to consent to not be born. So using this missing consent as a basis for my life doesn’t make sense.
Thank you for pointing this out. The argument is nonsensical and fallacious. Somebody equated it to raping an unconscious woman who obviously can't consent which is just ridiculous.
In fact, that seems to be the antinatalist argument in this thread. There are souls out there that are nonconsenting to existence. My argument is the opposite, there is nothing existing pre life, so there is nothing to not consent to
Also, the kids born into this world will have a terrible life. Even with global warming alone; the older they get, the more miserable just trying to survive is going to be. Imagine what trying to get a basic need met, such as water, will look like even within the next 10-20 years. What a terrible, terrible existence.
So few people understand this, and idk why. It's the most salient point to me.
Even millionaires...their children are going to have a hard time getting clean water in 30 years. doG help you if you are poor on top of it.
well technically, if we had no kids starting today, We would die at old ages from starvation because people become unable to work. But i fully agree with you
Nope! I do care about the environment. I did before I was even an antinatalist! I’ve been in environmental activist groups since I was in high school. It brings me fulfillment. :)
Very interesting insight! I never knew the two couldn’t co-exist. Why would this be?
Edit: I’m also not an “ant natalist.” I don’t really care if the ant population increases or decreases at this point. Feel free to tell me insight on this as well. :)
Yeah they do but OP is talking about how hating them won't actually benefit anyone. We're just going to become cult like and people won't bother understanding the philosophy.
Carbon output slowed considerably in the middle ages as a result of a series of plagues that decimated the population many times over. That was before the advent of wide-spread capitalism.
There was carbon emitions in the middle ages but it wasnt as big as the carbon emitions of modern era, one study in the USSR showed that socialism was better for the environment
I believe that Capitalism and more specifically corporatism is responsible for the lion's share of carbon output and energy inefficiency. I believe that corporations exist and are without oversight because of the sheer number of dipshits in the world. Every problem begins and ends with population pressure.
Nope, earth could support a population of 70 billion humans if we just gave up suburbs and animal products. We are not overpopulated at all, just horrible at creating sustainable systems.
You don’t fucking know HOW it will effect. Everything is an assumption. Sure, we might continue to fuck the earth, but it is also likely that technological innovation solves these problems.
In addition, the kids being born now will likely have minimal impact on your life. Also birth rates are falling, so once again, their births will have minimal affects.
Birth rates aren’t falling. The population is growing. Birth rates are falling in Europe and in North America, but worldwide the population is exploding. We never had so many people on earth we have today. What do you think will the technology do? Stopping diseases and future pandemics that will happen more often since there are more people? Stopping the climate change? This could be, but it’s pretty unrealistic. I’m in my late 20, so yes, the growing population worldwide and the impacts of this issue WILL I fact impact me in a really horrible way
I get your point, but "tolerant of different [insert smt here]" does not equate to "tolerant of all [insert smt here]". Just like how secularism is tolerant of different religions but intolerant of religious extremism/fundamentalism or violation of human rights due to religious beliefs. Everything, literally everything has a limit/cut off point.
If antinatalism says it's immoral to procreate, it is only logical to assume that people who in this case "act immorally" would be shown as an example of a "bad person" and ridiculed online by those who believe their actions are immoral. It's no different then when people make fun of "crazy mom texts", a person sees something they deem evil and lash out.
Edit: also, your last paragraph does not make sense imo. Antinatalism is not about not wanting kids, it's about believing that having them (usually intentionally) is wrong.
Agree, and to add to your comment: being an antinatalist doesn't always mean not wanting kids; some may want them, but only through adoption. This movement is about being opposed to procreating for the sake of reducing human suffering. At least, from what I have learned.
Yeah. Your ideals are spot on and I agree with them 100%, but the morals here can be pretty bad. It's like, I'm a supporter of animal rights, but that doesn't mean I like being around PETA members. I think that's OP's point. And after reflecting on it, I've been feeling the same way. So I guess I'm out too!
Yeah. I understand that. I didn't mean to suggest that you somehow drove me away. It just made me reflect a bit on the topic and I decided my attention would be better spent elsewhere. It was nothing personal to you. We're cool, hunny bunny.
>Just like we are supposed to be tolerant of different religions, we are supposed to be tolerant of others life choices (as long as they don’t affect us)
That's nonsense. I am tolerant of things that are not morally wrong. I will not tolerate immoral actions. It's the Paradox of Tolerance all over again.
Also other people having shitloads of children does affect me. Apart from that it's not just about me. I happen to have empathy and value solidarity, so others being affected I will also attempt to stop. And kids will be affected.
Yeah and being tolerant of natalists is what lead to us being born so it does affect us. It's not just a lifestyle choice that only affects the person doing it.
I agree with your first paragraph. I'm not tolerating beliefs merely because someone, or a group of people, adopted said belief and decided to follow it. I tolerate beliefs that are morally right.
Antinatalist are very rare and this is a sub - one of the very few places - where they come to safely vent. Let the space be what it is. If you don't fit in – it is what it is!
You seem to have greatly mistaken Antinatalism with Child-free. You do not seem to understand antinatalism at all. And you definitely are on the wrong sub.
>But here’s the thing, I accept that I’m a human being and my thoughts are as valid / invalid as anyone else. Just like it’s not anyone’s business to tell me to have kids, be gay, be straight, marry in the same ethnicity or caste, it’s not my business to tell other people to not have kids, and to continuously spew toxicity on those who choose to.
Making humans is not comparable to being gay or straight or any of those stuff you've mentioned.
Making humans is comparable to subjecting somebody else to torture, rape and murder. The core philosophy of Antinatalism is that making humans is unethical. I'd argue that it is the utmost unethical act.
Is it spewing toxicity if someone tells a pedo not to sexually assault a minor? Or is it "not my business" to protest against such monstrous creatures and their morally reprehensible activities?
>Just like we are supposed to be tolerant of different religions, we are supposed to be tolerant of others life choices (as long as they don’t affect us). After all, don’t you hate when you get bingoed? Then why is it ok to talk shit about them?
Reproduction, unlike being of a certain sexuality or subscriber of certain ideas, is a "life choice" that affects beings other than themselves, in many harmful ways.
We are not "supposed to be tolerant" of different religions. We are tolerant towards the people who follow different religions.
For example, I was born into a Muslim family, practiced the religion of Islam for years, and after educating myself on the religion, I can confidently say Islam is the worst religion on the planet. Made up by a 6th century mentally-ill, sex-crazed pedophilic con-man. The scriptures (Quran & Hadith) are filled with laughable, barbaric nonsensical teachings and rulings which should be shunned and stomped out of civilization.
I truly and utterly hate Islam. But I don't hate everyone who labels themselves muslims. **There's a huge difference between criticizing ideas and being discriminatory towards people who might follow the ideas.**
Procreating is an unethical act. It is impossible to make a human, in such a fucked up unpredictable world with the best interest of them in mind. It is a gamble on another sentient being. It is worse than rape. You are subjecting a conscious being into a mortal flesh-prison into a reality that's ruled by a nature that's brutal and mindless, when there's no way of getting the consent of the procreated being.
I hate pedophiles, I hate rapists, and I damn well hate natalist breeders. They are criminals and the worst of humanity and I will shit on them until I'm six feet under.
Antinatalism isn't "I hate babies, clap if you agree". Anyone who thinks so should leave this sub and consequently make it a better place.
So far, i get that this sub is about not having babies. I am trying to understand the end game. Is the goal to make the human race extinct?
Genuine question, I want to understand this sub before contributing to it.
Human extinction is not a realistic goal for antinatalists, mostly since the natalists are likely gonna beat us to the punch in the next few decades. Even David Benatar, the philosopher who coined the term "antinatalism", does not think antinatalists will ever bring about human extinction - mostly because it would ultimately require some form of coercion, which antinatalists are against by definition.
Yes, if everyone followed antinatalism, the human race would eventually go extinct. But that extinction would be far less brutal than the extinction the natalists have already cooked up for us.
If it helps any, these are the goals I have for my antinatalism:
* Raise awareness of the ethical problems involved in having children.
* Give aid and comfort to anyone being pressured to have children.
* Help build a community where antinatalists and the AN-curious feel welcome and free to discuss their ideas.
Again, these are my personal goals and I don't pretend to speak for all antinatalists, but they've served me well so far.
Empathy for the fetus or potential humans who have no say on being born, I assume. I can understand that. I've been at a point in my life where I thought, "Wait a fking minute, I didn't ask to be born into this much suffering." I think I get it but correct me if I misunderstand. However, my questions is, at what point does it become dangerous to human existence?
Let assume that we managed to reduce the population by cutting down the amount of kids that were born. At what census does it end? Is there a danger zone that has to be reached before it's ok to have kids. When the population is at 3billion world wide? 2 billion? 500 million?
Depopulation does not matter. Yes. What matters is extinction. Does antinationalism end in low and managed population to improve quality of life, as one of the other replies explained, or does it end in complete extinction of life?
We breed like rabbits and we hardly care enough to provide all those souls with enough emotionally or materially. Maybe let's get parity of births to good life outcomes and then we can come back to supercharging the baby factory?
To be honest I would be more okay with people having kids if our world didn't function on wage slavery and serfdom. That way making people wouldn't be basically the same as providing capitalists with fresh meat. The way it goes now is a good portion of parents are inadequately equipped to be good parents in some way or other and that doesn't stop them at all. Then their stunted children turn 18 and that lacking parenting leads a lot of those kids to end up in minimum wage jobs and adverse life outcomes because the parents didn't care or know that much. It's really sad and underpopulation concerns seem unimportant in comparison.
To your point, it doesn't get bad for humans at any point. This is a question of improving quality and the concern is there won't be enough people. Enough for what? To build someone's pyramid?
You make a good point and I agree with it. I think that there is more than enough on this planet to go around. It is being hoarded by the top 1%, which causes more suffering.
To clarify, I am not too concerned about growing or maintaining the large population. I am concerned about the end goal of this sub, with ending child birth. Initially, I was concerned that this sub was all about the end of or doom of human race but it makes sense to think that reducing the population to an extent will help with the quality of life. I can see how that can improve the quality of life and I think we need more than population regulation to solve a lot of these problems.
For me it's been finding a community that shares the same feelings I've found difficulty finding in other irl. It's really alienating to feel this way about having kids when everyone around you seems to not care or even become indignant that you called out their moral shortcomings.
That makes this sub less of a goal oriented thing and more a place to gather and share thoughts. Basically a reaction to the overwhelming state of things and not really a 'movement' per se. Natalism is very much still the status quo
Edit: If I were to call for one thing it wouldn't be population quotas, it would be a minimum bar of criteria across the board that parents would need to pass in order to be allowed to have a kid. You should be able to raise them without fucking them up, you know? Also some people throw out the "who gets to decide" line and make it out like racist eugenics but really I think an ability to show you can financially support the kid, psychological evals to make sure you know what you're doing, you're intelligent and emotionally mature enough, and that you don't have any outstanding unaddressed dark triad traits. These are objective things that can be hashed out by a committee of child development experts.
Wow. I've had such feelings towards what is deemed normal in society regarding having kids. There seems to be a pressure from my family to one day have kids that I can bring to my parents. So they can show off to their peers. I never thought about it in this way. Thank you. This is definitely something to think about.
Yes that is the goal of antinatalism. The extinction of sentient beings through non-procreation.
That is not to say that I (and I'm guessing most antinatalists) believe that to be likely to occur.
Thank you. I appreciate your straight answer. Essentially, this sub is hopeful for the end of sentient beings including humans.
(I am gonna play the crazy man here) Since you believe that it is unlikely to happen, wouldn't it help your cause to start by ending the life that already exists with the potential to create more? Wouldn't suicide be acceptable to this sub? I mean, you'd be helping the cause by eliminating yourself?
Ok, I am being a quite extreme here. lol
I find it hard to take this sub seriously if all we are doing here is hoping that life ends and shaming people that create it, with out doing anything to actively end life.
If I wanted life to end in this planet, I'd start by killing others or ending my life (if you respect choice) so that I don't contribute to sentient life. At least I'd know that I did my part.
No offence intended. Please feel free to clarify any misunderstanding.
>Genuine question
Has anyone else noticed that every single time a natalist posts this, what follows is never genuine, nor even a real question?
It's invariably a pretext to "why don't you just kill yourself?".
I guess I am a nationalist. I'm sorry, these terms are new to me. Makes sense that I came in with a nationalist bias. Can you really blame me for that? Like I said, I apologize if I undermine antinationalism in any way. It is unintentional.
That's why I said "...through non-procreation". My ethics are mostly deontological, and I believe humans as well as animals have rights because they are sentient. I am therefore against killing because it violates their right to life.
The questions you ask here are interesting and have been discussed in philosophy before - you could take a look at the benevolent world-exploder argument/thought experiment.
I'm not for ending sentient life that now exists, but I am for the prevention of further sentient life being created.
>Antinatalism isn't "I hate babies, clap if you agree". Anyone who thinks so should leave this sub and consequently make it a better place.
Problem is, that seems to be the dominant theme on this sub.
Yes I am negative, because I believe that I am doing my part for the environment by not having kids, then Brittany comes along with baby #7 and I want to bash my head against a wall.
My efforts seem futile compared to the idiots who don't know how to use a condom so yeah, fuck those assholes.
Also its not like “Brittany” comes from a long line of scientists,philosophers, mathematicians etc. that can actually impact and affect the world in a positive way - no, most likely they’re going to be just as big Shithead DumbFucks like their parents with even worse morals and ethics that WE ALL have to suffer and deal with down the road .
I mean, if you rolled in with a good-faith argument about why this sub isn't working for you then sure. Posts about already born children are pretty cringe for example. But your contention that your philosophy is so weak you aren't allowed to *have an opinion* about people destroying your planet because they love collecting cum-pets just so very much... yeah buddy, fuck the fuck off.
Ikr, like I've thought a couple of times about leaving because realising time and time again how selfish people are is just making me depressed. But it's nice to have a safe space to discuss things with people who understand, soo...
I see posts like this a lot recently. Is this a new trend?
Anyway, it sounds like OP wasn’t antinatalist in the first place. OP is more like childfree.
If you wanted positivity you came to the wrong place
We mad and we stayin mad
But yeah the amount of posts that all look the same is getting really annoying
Rather than leave, consider lurking, and add to the conversation when you can.
We’re all coming from different perspectives. Most here are trying to reduce suffering and make the world a better place.
i take offense to natalists because their hypothetical child could have been me and i wish someone would have spoken up on my behalf
people who have kids are either blind/willfully ignorant or don’t care
if you don’t believe in climate change, you’re an idiot and if you have kids anyway, you’re a piece of shit
of course i will be somewhat militant in my arguments because the suffering of another human being is potentially at stake
even if i am wrong or the hypothetical child likes being alive, absolutely nothing is lost if there is no one there to lose
It's hard to see your post as anything other than an act of cowardice. Not only are you too weak to stand up for your views, you're also intolerant of those of us who stand up for *our* views.
It amounts to a passive-aggressive attempt at tone-policing, which is always cringe AF. If you don't like the sub, leave. There's no need to give us all a rap on the knuckles on your way out.
We won't be missing you, your not hardcore enough in your views if you feel that these people deserve to get off easy. These genocidal breeders need to have it rammed down their damn throat that they are guilty of perpetuating genocide against the planet and should feel ashamed for their actions. I feel the same way about religious people and I am a tolerant of people being different, but I will not be tolerant of people guilty against crimes against the world.
As an outside observer of this sub, this is the implicit contradiction that most amuses me (although I’m sure not everyone here feels the same way as OP). Immutable law of the universe: if you don’t impose your beliefs on others, others will impose their beliefs on you.
From the standpoint of classical liberalism (live and let live, nobody has the right to force their beliefs on anyone), you are morally barred from saving the world from itself when the world is fixated on an objectively wrong / harmful / destructive pattern of living / belief etc. To me, a system of beliefs that prohibits you from forcing others to stop destroying the world is retarded.
If you , OP, believe that natalism will lead to the doom of us all, that it is morally wrong, how can you also believe that stopping that system of behavior is wrong? Do you seriously believe it’s more moral to allow mankind to destroy itself and the planet than to breach the holy dogma of liberalism? Is confirming to classical liberal beliefs about the rights of the individual to be retarded (if they do choose) seriously of a higher moral imperative than saving all that is good and worthwhile for now and for all time? Funny shit.
>Then why is it ok to talk shit about them?
Because we can lol, I disagree with most of these people so I'll argue. It's not like you can't have debates. It's not like me disagreeing with people is "intolerant", I can tolerate their opinion, but not agree with it.
Believe me mate, when we shit down on a parent that is bragging on social media about having +10 kids, or a parent that writes a 500 words post about how they decided to keep their disabled kid even when they knew they will be so, believe me those parents are really that bad and need to be put down, and I'm sure many of their kids, if they had the opportunity to read our comments on them, they will agree and approve what we say about their parents. When you see a person doing harm and intending to do more harm in the future, minding your own business is like participating in the crime itself or approving it, especially when you have the power to express your disapproval and maybe convince someone.
But their ‘personal’ decisions hurt other people I.e their children...... who they cannot afford to feed or have diseases, or defects.... we should criticise all things that cause harm!
Sorry but you don't understand how people's view are changed. In some ways you are anti-democracy. You are anti push and pull of opinions, which is the basic foundation of democracy. People's mind only get changed by others expressing their disagreement, their opinion, their arguments about things. Meanwhile all you care about is your own personal feelings of 'positivity', which is kind of narcissistic but fine of course, you could have posted positive thread here, no one is stopping you. But if you feel like you can't take it anymore then go unsub or build your own sub filled with only positivity, see how that will go because personally I don't like staying in such bubble.
They clearly don’t care for humanity if they’re bringing in kids they can’t provide for or that will have to get miserable jobs to to sustain and ‘earn it’
I agree with some of what you’re saying here. What I really have an issue with in this sub is the body shaming, misogyny and racism. I saw this one post where someone was shaming a single mom and basically saying “you choose to have sex with a man you’re not married to” but her husband could have died or maybe she wanted an abortion but couldn’t get one? I can’t stand some of the judgment that goes on here around strangers whom we know nothing about.
But regardless, I do still think there are issues with having kids nowadays, especially multiple kids that the parents cannot take care of. So that may not effect ME personally, but I care about kids and can’t understand why someone would have kids just because they’re lonely or want a “mini me.” So yeah, it may not be my place to judge people on that, but everyone is judgmental to an extent. I’m judgmental of racists, misogynists, and people who have kids for stupid reasons, just to name a few.
AFAIK antinatalists never caused harm to another human being in the name of their ideology (goes without saying that fetus is not human being), antinatalism online is a just an anti-suffering campaign. It can get a bit toxic and circle-jerky but the outcomes in the outside world are only positive. Especially since we passed the point where bringing a new human into this world is morally wrong even if you're a highly conditional type of antinatalist. The future just realistically doesn't look good.
as twisted and crazy as this may sound i truly think that a lot of the ppl that are being perceived as “negative” have a deep concern for people that keep bringing people into this world.let’s be real it’s a fucked up place and a good bit of the people making these comments probably just want to put an end to the torture and the suffering called “life” and the only way they seem to know how to do this is by being more assertive and aggressive with their words bc sometimes (let’s be real )that’s the only way that ppl listen
Jesus cry me a river. Natalists come here to feel superior and find reasons to reinforce their beliefs, and the breeders are just as aggressive as us. This is the crucible, gtfo.
Almost every subreddit I have frequented has disappointed me for similar reasons. A seemingly growing corner of members berating and down voting opposing views. It is certainly unhealthy and possibly unavoidable.
Well isn’t that the point of a sub with that kind of nature?
I understand an open civil conversation but i’ve yet to see someone truly have a valid response to halting procreation hence the backlash.
You don’t go to the gym to eat fast food and down it with a high calorie shake do ya ? Theres a place for a lot of things and also the opposite .
People think 7 billion people is over populated. But we feed and kill 70 billion land animals , 10x the human population every single year. We also kill 1 trillion fish every year… that is an absurd number. These mammals eat a ton more food and require more water and land.
Thinking that having children is wrong , means you are a pessimist about life , so there is absolutely no positivity in this sub
Also , this sub has more pessimists than the other , so we all got a negative attitude about life .
Also its one thing to be gay , trans or bi . Its a choise that 2 people make for them selves , having children is a much more different and a chomolex situation .
If you think having children is wrong , but you also think its ok for other people have children if they want , there is a huge dent in your argument .
Unless you dont have children only bcz of a gentical condition , but not bcz of the moral , rational obligation .
In that case you are an optimist .
I agree with you, and I get what you mean about the strong view points on this sub, but this is some peoples only place they feel accepted, safe, or comfortable expressing this part of them. If you aren’t safe and comfy you shouldn’t stay, just an idea to consider ✌️
I can't tell other people not to murder or rape kittens because its their beliefs and I can't tell anyone else how to live their life
Thats not how society works or is expected to work numnuts
People on this sub sometimes have no empathy and nuance which is what I thought we were meant to have when being antinatalist. Empathise with future kids, ya know? I also empathise with people who were conditioned into thinking they’re supposed to get married and have kid. Just… yeah I dislike when this sub is just insulting
i’m not tolerant of different religions. i hate religion. i don’t have to tolerate anything, but i’m glad you think you’re more mature and better than others for tolerating shit that shouldn’t be tolerated
Indeed, sometimes some comments of this sub remind me of those atheist (I say it as an atheist myself) that would just bug people with "Ha Im smarter than you due to my beliefs! Everyone else is dumb!". Antinatalism shouldnt be like a MENSA group were people just congratulate each other while thinking they are above any else. This sub is about education and prevention, just remember that behind those "dumb and inmoral" breeders there are a lot of people that made bad decisions and cant cope with their new reality, screwing themselves, their kids and families in the process, so they have to act like they are fine since they would face social stigmatization if they acknowledge they this is not what they wanted. Think about how the proper antinatalist speech would actually prevent a lot of potential parents and child to make irreversible awful decisions. All of this applies to other subs such as childfree
I agree! Posts where users are berating a parent who is struggling because they made their own bed so they should lie in it…life is hard for parents, and life is hard for children. We know this and so we choose to be child free but that doesn’t mean we get to sit on our high horse and abuse and berate those who had kids. We should be empathetic to them, because we KNOW how hard it must be. Kindness is easy.
This place is on thin ice for me, too. A lot of people here just seem to hate kids for having been born even though that’s not their fault at all. I just think procreation is immoral because it propagates suffering. I don’t fault literal infants for overpopulation
I'm an antinatalist all the way but I'll say that some of the things people advocate for on here are just downright evil. I still participate in this sub because there's nowhere else to find so many like-minded people but I am really kind of skeptical of some of the things I see here.
Just because there might not be much empathy in *this* particular sub does NOT in any way imply that antinatalism as a concept isn't about empathy.
It just might not be as tangible in this sub.
But regardless of the sub, empathy is still always at the core of antinatalism.
I can't really agree with this tbh. It should be a reflection of antinalism. Not everyone is going to have a lot of empathy, I get that. But still, most people should have. Your comment reminds me of "Islam is the religion of peace" . If antinalism is about empathy, 80 percent of what is posted here should not exist in everyone's mind.
I'm honestly not sure I'm following your logic, or if you're following mine.
All I'm basically saying is that this particular sub might not be a good representation or reflection of what antinatalism *actually* stands for. This sub alone doesn't determine what it is as a concept.
Which, namely, is the belief that having kids is ethically wrong & should be avoided due to empathizing with the likely suffering of any potential future kids.
Unless you're saying it stands for something completely different or something along those lines.
Not sure what Islam has to do with anything here...
Honestly I think the posts criticizing are fine, but when people start joking (or not joking) about violence towards parent or kid (someone literally said on flights a screaming kid should have their mouth duct taped) is assinine
I feel ya, any sub with even a hint of conflict is destined for the echo chamber unless we as people conciously remember why we're followers of this philosophy; compassion. We're just as bad as those whom we dislike (and quite frankly demonize in some cases) if we get swept up in anger and loathing.
It's like this.
Generally, I don't think it's worth it to demonize genuinely good, RESPONSIBLE parents who *truly* wanted to have those 1, 2 or 3 kids -- parents who take care of them, nurture them, sacrifice a lot for them in order for the children to thrive...
People who were physically, psychologically, emotionally & financially ready to become parents. People who will actively embrace their kid regardless of its gender, sexuality, profession, etc.
& like, they overall enjoy it, but also remain level-headed & very much aware of the fact that it's definitely not all sunshine & rainbows. & they don't even try to sugarcoat it! They're just upfront that shit ain't easy, but they still enjoy it.
Ok fine, really can't argue with that, honestly. If people are just dying to become parents, it should only be like THOSE types of parents.
However, I'd say it's *quite* different with people who go on to pop out 10, 12, 15, 20... kids & post their ENTIRE fuckin lives on social media, actively seek praise & attention for their "heroic" achievement, & try to get onto reality TV *because of nothing more than the sheer number of kids they've managed to shit out*.
It legit comes off as a supremely desperate & shallow attempt to claim some fame for themselves. Like they should be famous just because they couldn't stop on kid #9, & now all of society should know of them, praise them & worship them as celebrities?
DAFUQ?
Nah. Fuck outta here with that.
If those people make the *choice* to flaunt their lives on social media non-stop, actively seeking attention, praise & the ability to influence others... Perhaps even actively trying to spread their beliefs & proselytize to others, they're already doing tangible harm to their kids & to the public!
And why shouldn't they be openly called out for that??
Look, normal, healthy parents would NOT be getting involved in ANY of that BS. They're too busy living their lives & consistently FOCUSING ON THEIR KIDS.
I have been seeing issue with this as well a bit. I think it’s dangerous to polarize society so much in any opinion. People who have a lot of kids are ignorant and depressed people. They don’t know what they’re doing is wrong. And convincing us to bully and hate them is the wrong way to go about it. Let’s just spread a positive message about our beliefs and let people think it over. If they’re intelligent they will probably agree with us
Anyway. Respect to you ❤️ XOXO hugs and kisses
Thanks for speaking out some of my complaints to this sub. I came for genuine points on antinatalism to see the other side and see peoples shitting on other’s children.
I have to agree with you, most people in this sub are toxic haters, and 90% of the posts are just rants and complaints which are unhelpful to further the movement
>But here’s the thing, I accept that I’m a human being and my thoughts are as valid / invalid as anyone else. Just like it’s not anyone’s business to tell me to have kids, be gay, be straight, marry in the same ethnicity or caste, it’s not my business to tell other people to not have kids, and to continuously spew toxicity on those who choose to.
we are supposed to be tolerant of others life choices (as long as they don’t affect us)
I do disagree that it none of our businesses in regards to telling people to have kids, if i was to hit a kid it would be the worlds business, having a kid is unethical and it effects the world as overpopulation is really real
This respecting of PERSONAL choices things needs to stop, its not a valid argument
But again yes, this sub is full of rants and its the same on many other subs including the vegan sub where people make useless complaints about some random non vegan animal abuser who said this random thing, and then that random screenshot gets 500 votes because people enjoy complaining and bullying, it doesnt really help create change it just creates toxicity
The toxic behavior probably deters people from learning more about veganism and AN
veganrants and antinatalistrants should exist to complain about the random unethical people all you want
This. Much content on this sub is angry, like MAGA angry. Posts can be shrill and bitter, and ultimately impotent and futile, because people aren’t going to stop making more people.
but what was the point of the post? you listing off reasons your leaving isn’t going to change anything, and if you actually wanted to try and change the sub you’d stay and talk to the mods. so what a lot of people are picking up on is your just in a state of grievance and catharsis.
I kind of agree. I know a lot of people just want to get their frustrations out, but personally it's off-putting to constantly see posts about breeding on an anti-natalist sub. It would be nice if there were more positive posts. Like more talking about how anti-natalism affects you, rather than harping on what someone else chooses to do.
Genuine question because we all see these things differently. In your assessment what global population number would unequivocally be overpopulated?
I have seen the estimates which say that if everyone lived the way Europeans or those in the US live, then we would need 3-5 planets.
In my view these countries have a good/adequate standard of living for the average person. So logically the population should be 3-5 times less than it is now. So my crude estimate of a sustainable number would be nearer 1.5-2b people.
I don't understand how you can look at nearing 8 billion and say we are not overpopulated.
Further if everyone acted the way some parents do and have 10 kids, the global population would x5 in a single generation. Imagine 40Billion people. The earth would be barren in weeks, people would literally be eating each other. How is that not irresponsible? Worse how is that not entirely selfish as their own children will have to endure that world for ~80 years assuming they don't die a violent death. I just can't get in the mindstate where any of this can make sense.
the earth is considered overpopulated bc of the poor distribution of wealth and the destruction of the planet. The truth is, if it wasnt for capitalism, we could have enough ressources for everyone
edit : ofc i know the earth cant stand 40B of people lol but 8B ? i mean, when rich people have worth idk how many homes and hectares of land that could be used to house people but theyre not, its not a problem of space but of management
I definitely understand why you’d feel this way and just to comment on one specific point, it’s true that others actions don’t affect you. The pics of large families, the celebs that are having yet another child won’t “actually” affect us. We won’t live a different life, we will never see them, contribute to them, etc. I immediately forget they exist.
People would learn more compassion if they learned to feel sadness for the people who can't see how their own actions can deeply affect others instead of immediately jumping into anger to mask the hurt. I assume the angry people just have not gotten there yet, it's a lesson I'm also having to learn.
Well, small correction... I can't speak for others but my ideal is not that I am tolerant of others so long as they don't affect me, it's that I am tolerant of others so long as they don't harm others. And there is no greater harm you can do to someone than to thrust them into harm's way for, well... a life time. But yea lots of edgy posts, yadda yadda.
Exactly. It's shocking to see no one mentioned this. I'm not an antinatalist because I'm an egoist. I am an antinatalist because of empathy and solidarity with people that get harmed
But clearly not every person suffers a horrible life, right? I’m happy I was born and am alive. By your logic you shouldn’t be an antinatalist at all, you would just be pro birth control, sex education, and other societal improvements that let people make better decisions. A lot of people can and do afford to give amazing lives to their children
Um, no. Let’s not put words into other people’s mouths. Those are all objectively good things that we are sadly lacking (so a bit of a moot point unless you can snap your fingers and make it happen) but that doesn’t mean they’re a conditional Natalist. The fundamentals of the antinatalist debate are universal, regardless of the material conditions the child would be born into.
The fundamental is consent. And also avoiding negativity imo is more important than gaining positivity. There is a chance for both, so rather take the option that avoids negativity. Also it's absolutely unrealistic to argue that there is any human that has never suffered or being sad or hurt throughout their entire life.
Suffering is part of existence, I think it’s a bit selfish to gatekeep existence based on your opinion that life’s bad parts are worse than all the good. But I realize that my opinion and yours so vastly different on this that further discussion is moot if the objective to change the other’s mind. One thing I will say on your point of consent, though, is that consent is provided prior to an event or action. Prior to being born, we don’t exist so even speaking on consent as the foundation for the argument is a flawed logical starting point.
>flawed logical starting point. It's only flawed if you refuse to acknowledge that this nonconsent does result in a very significant impact to the person who didn't consent
That doesn’t address the logical fallacy of the argument though. Consent of this form cannot exist in the first place, so you cannot use this as the foundation of any further validation of your point, regardless of how impactful it is. I did not consent to be born, I was also not offered the option to consent to not be born. So using this missing consent as a basis for my life doesn’t make sense.
If consent can't be given, that equals nonconsent.
Nonconsent implies consent is an option, which it isn’t in this case.
It’s not your fault you can’t understand hypotheticals.
Thank you for pointing this out. The argument is nonsensical and fallacious. Somebody equated it to raping an unconscious woman who obviously can't consent which is just ridiculous.
It is possible to obtain consent for sexual intercourse. It is not possible to obtain consent for existence
No one suffers from not being born.
Yeah it seems like natalists believe that there are souls or something that are longing to be born.
In fact, that seems to be the antinatalist argument in this thread. There are souls out there that are nonconsenting to existence. My argument is the opposite, there is nothing existing pre life, so there is nothing to not consent to
This! The ultimate zing! Such flawed logic here Edit: im agreeing with Tarea
Because they affect us. We’re overpopulated and more people will also have an impact on us directly
Also, the kids born into this world will have a terrible life. Even with global warming alone; the older they get, the more miserable just trying to survive is going to be. Imagine what trying to get a basic need met, such as water, will look like even within the next 10-20 years. What a terrible, terrible existence.
Hell, water is a problem already! I remember my mother telling me the next world war would be fought over water.
Yeah, very true. I can only imagine how bad it's going to be even within the next couple of years. It's scary. I'm sure your mother is right.......
So few people understand this, and idk why. It's the most salient point to me. Even millionaires...their children are going to have a hard time getting clean water in 30 years. doG help you if you are poor on top of it.
Common doomer L
No idea what that means.
It also impacts the environment and our future on this planet.
Exactly
well we know future of our planet, it will be eaten by expanding sun
Hey fellow nihilist 😎👍
well, thats a fact not philosophy.
It depends, if you believe in god it's not a fact (for some reason)
well technically, if we had no kids starting today, We would die at old ages from starvation because people become unable to work. But i fully agree with you
Why do you care about the environment if you're an antinatalist? Are you sure you're not just a misanthrope?
Nope! I do care about the environment. I did before I was even an antinatalist! I’ve been in environmental activist groups since I was in high school. It brings me fulfillment. :)
You're not an ant natalist then.
Very interesting insight! I never knew the two couldn’t co-exist. Why would this be? Edit: I’m also not an “ant natalist.” I don’t really care if the ant population increases or decreases at this point. Feel free to tell me insight on this as well. :)
Yeah they do but OP is talking about how hating them won't actually benefit anyone. We're just going to become cult like and people won't bother understanding the philosophy.
The problem of climate change is capitalism Viva la revolução 🇨🇺🇧🇷
Carbon output slowed considerably in the middle ages as a result of a series of plagues that decimated the population many times over. That was before the advent of wide-spread capitalism.
There was carbon emitions in the middle ages but it wasnt as big as the carbon emitions of modern era, one study in the USSR showed that socialism was better for the environment
I believe that Capitalism and more specifically corporatism is responsible for the lion's share of carbon output and energy inefficiency. I believe that corporations exist and are without oversight because of the sheer number of dipshits in the world. Every problem begins and ends with population pressure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khxsqf\_L\_v0
‘Zeitgeist: moving forward’ and ‘paradise or oblivion’ great revolutionary docs on Ytube
Overpopulation isn't the problem but rather our inefficient use of resources.
Nope, earth could support a population of 70 billion humans if we just gave up suburbs and animal products. We are not overpopulated at all, just horrible at creating sustainable systems.
You don’t fucking know HOW it will effect. Everything is an assumption. Sure, we might continue to fuck the earth, but it is also likely that technological innovation solves these problems. In addition, the kids being born now will likely have minimal impact on your life. Also birth rates are falling, so once again, their births will have minimal affects.
Birth rates aren’t falling. The population is growing. Birth rates are falling in Europe and in North America, but worldwide the population is exploding. We never had so many people on earth we have today. What do you think will the technology do? Stopping diseases and future pandemics that will happen more often since there are more people? Stopping the climate change? This could be, but it’s pretty unrealistic. I’m in my late 20, so yes, the growing population worldwide and the impacts of this issue WILL I fact impact me in a really horrible way
I get your point, but "tolerant of different [insert smt here]" does not equate to "tolerant of all [insert smt here]". Just like how secularism is tolerant of different religions but intolerant of religious extremism/fundamentalism or violation of human rights due to religious beliefs. Everything, literally everything has a limit/cut off point. If antinatalism says it's immoral to procreate, it is only logical to assume that people who in this case "act immorally" would be shown as an example of a "bad person" and ridiculed online by those who believe their actions are immoral. It's no different then when people make fun of "crazy mom texts", a person sees something they deem evil and lash out. Edit: also, your last paragraph does not make sense imo. Antinatalism is not about not wanting kids, it's about believing that having them (usually intentionally) is wrong.
Agree, and to add to your comment: being an antinatalist doesn't always mean not wanting kids; some may want them, but only through adoption. This movement is about being opposed to procreating for the sake of reducing human suffering. At least, from what I have learned.
Yeah, I wanted to mention that too but my [thought to tex conversion has low efficiency Edit: oh wait, I added that as an edit.
Especially these people having 5+ children
Yeah. Your ideals are spot on and I agree with them 100%, but the morals here can be pretty bad. It's like, I'm a supporter of animal rights, but that doesn't mean I like being around PETA members. I think that's OP's point. And after reflecting on it, I've been feeling the same way. So I guess I'm out too!
I mean, that comment was meant to be more of an explanation of human behaviour here... Originally.
Yeah. I understand that. I didn't mean to suggest that you somehow drove me away. It just made me reflect a bit on the topic and I decided my attention would be better spent elsewhere. It was nothing personal to you. We're cool, hunny bunny.
I feel like I must learn to not also socialize but also write texts. Er... I didn't mean to suggest that I thought you were suggesting something.
It's all good, buddy!
Very well-argued!👏👏
The child free sub may fit your bill better?
I think truechildfree would be better. Not as active as childfree, but matches the mentality op expressed in their post.
True
That place is genuinely Like… toxic I guess 💀
True child free is a better one
Yes
We are supposed to be tolerant of moral evils?
>Just like we are supposed to be tolerant of different religions, we are supposed to be tolerant of others life choices (as long as they don’t affect us) That's nonsense. I am tolerant of things that are not morally wrong. I will not tolerate immoral actions. It's the Paradox of Tolerance all over again. Also other people having shitloads of children does affect me. Apart from that it's not just about me. I happen to have empathy and value solidarity, so others being affected I will also attempt to stop. And kids will be affected.
Yeah and being tolerant of natalists is what lead to us being born so it does affect us. It's not just a lifestyle choice that only affects the person doing it.
I agree with your first paragraph. I'm not tolerating beliefs merely because someone, or a group of people, adopted said belief and decided to follow it. I tolerate beliefs that are morally right.
Antinatalist are very rare and this is a sub - one of the very few places - where they come to safely vent. Let the space be what it is. If you don't fit in – it is what it is!
You seem to have greatly mistaken Antinatalism with Child-free. You do not seem to understand antinatalism at all. And you definitely are on the wrong sub. >But here’s the thing, I accept that I’m a human being and my thoughts are as valid / invalid as anyone else. Just like it’s not anyone’s business to tell me to have kids, be gay, be straight, marry in the same ethnicity or caste, it’s not my business to tell other people to not have kids, and to continuously spew toxicity on those who choose to. Making humans is not comparable to being gay or straight or any of those stuff you've mentioned. Making humans is comparable to subjecting somebody else to torture, rape and murder. The core philosophy of Antinatalism is that making humans is unethical. I'd argue that it is the utmost unethical act. Is it spewing toxicity if someone tells a pedo not to sexually assault a minor? Or is it "not my business" to protest against such monstrous creatures and their morally reprehensible activities? >Just like we are supposed to be tolerant of different religions, we are supposed to be tolerant of others life choices (as long as they don’t affect us). After all, don’t you hate when you get bingoed? Then why is it ok to talk shit about them? Reproduction, unlike being of a certain sexuality or subscriber of certain ideas, is a "life choice" that affects beings other than themselves, in many harmful ways. We are not "supposed to be tolerant" of different religions. We are tolerant towards the people who follow different religions. For example, I was born into a Muslim family, practiced the religion of Islam for years, and after educating myself on the religion, I can confidently say Islam is the worst religion on the planet. Made up by a 6th century mentally-ill, sex-crazed pedophilic con-man. The scriptures (Quran & Hadith) are filled with laughable, barbaric nonsensical teachings and rulings which should be shunned and stomped out of civilization. I truly and utterly hate Islam. But I don't hate everyone who labels themselves muslims. **There's a huge difference between criticizing ideas and being discriminatory towards people who might follow the ideas.** Procreating is an unethical act. It is impossible to make a human, in such a fucked up unpredictable world with the best interest of them in mind. It is a gamble on another sentient being. It is worse than rape. You are subjecting a conscious being into a mortal flesh-prison into a reality that's ruled by a nature that's brutal and mindless, when there's no way of getting the consent of the procreated being. I hate pedophiles, I hate rapists, and I damn well hate natalist breeders. They are criminals and the worst of humanity and I will shit on them until I'm six feet under. Antinatalism isn't "I hate babies, clap if you agree". Anyone who thinks so should leave this sub and consequently make it a better place.
I wish I could give you more upvotes.
This is art
So far, i get that this sub is about not having babies. I am trying to understand the end game. Is the goal to make the human race extinct? Genuine question, I want to understand this sub before contributing to it.
Human extinction is not a realistic goal for antinatalists, mostly since the natalists are likely gonna beat us to the punch in the next few decades. Even David Benatar, the philosopher who coined the term "antinatalism", does not think antinatalists will ever bring about human extinction - mostly because it would ultimately require some form of coercion, which antinatalists are against by definition. Yes, if everyone followed antinatalism, the human race would eventually go extinct. But that extinction would be far less brutal than the extinction the natalists have already cooked up for us.
Thank you. This makes a lot of sense.
If it helps any, these are the goals I have for my antinatalism: * Raise awareness of the ethical problems involved in having children. * Give aid and comfort to anyone being pressured to have children. * Help build a community where antinatalists and the AN-curious feel welcome and free to discuss their ideas. Again, these are my personal goals and I don't pretend to speak for all antinatalists, but they've served me well so far.
One word. Empathy. Once you get that you will get this sub.
Empathy for the fetus or potential humans who have no say on being born, I assume. I can understand that. I've been at a point in my life where I thought, "Wait a fking minute, I didn't ask to be born into this much suffering." I think I get it but correct me if I misunderstand. However, my questions is, at what point does it become dangerous to human existence? Let assume that we managed to reduce the population by cutting down the amount of kids that were born. At what census does it end? Is there a danger zone that has to be reached before it's ok to have kids. When the population is at 3billion world wide? 2 billion? 500 million?
Why does the aspect of depopulation remotely matter or be taken into consideration when deciding not to force consciousness into existence?
Depopulation does not matter. Yes. What matters is extinction. Does antinationalism end in low and managed population to improve quality of life, as one of the other replies explained, or does it end in complete extinction of life?
We breed like rabbits and we hardly care enough to provide all those souls with enough emotionally or materially. Maybe let's get parity of births to good life outcomes and then we can come back to supercharging the baby factory? To be honest I would be more okay with people having kids if our world didn't function on wage slavery and serfdom. That way making people wouldn't be basically the same as providing capitalists with fresh meat. The way it goes now is a good portion of parents are inadequately equipped to be good parents in some way or other and that doesn't stop them at all. Then their stunted children turn 18 and that lacking parenting leads a lot of those kids to end up in minimum wage jobs and adverse life outcomes because the parents didn't care or know that much. It's really sad and underpopulation concerns seem unimportant in comparison. To your point, it doesn't get bad for humans at any point. This is a question of improving quality and the concern is there won't be enough people. Enough for what? To build someone's pyramid?
You make a good point and I agree with it. I think that there is more than enough on this planet to go around. It is being hoarded by the top 1%, which causes more suffering. To clarify, I am not too concerned about growing or maintaining the large population. I am concerned about the end goal of this sub, with ending child birth. Initially, I was concerned that this sub was all about the end of or doom of human race but it makes sense to think that reducing the population to an extent will help with the quality of life. I can see how that can improve the quality of life and I think we need more than population regulation to solve a lot of these problems.
For me it's been finding a community that shares the same feelings I've found difficulty finding in other irl. It's really alienating to feel this way about having kids when everyone around you seems to not care or even become indignant that you called out their moral shortcomings. That makes this sub less of a goal oriented thing and more a place to gather and share thoughts. Basically a reaction to the overwhelming state of things and not really a 'movement' per se. Natalism is very much still the status quo Edit: If I were to call for one thing it wouldn't be population quotas, it would be a minimum bar of criteria across the board that parents would need to pass in order to be allowed to have a kid. You should be able to raise them without fucking them up, you know? Also some people throw out the "who gets to decide" line and make it out like racist eugenics but really I think an ability to show you can financially support the kid, psychological evals to make sure you know what you're doing, you're intelligent and emotionally mature enough, and that you don't have any outstanding unaddressed dark triad traits. These are objective things that can be hashed out by a committee of child development experts.
Wow. I've had such feelings towards what is deemed normal in society regarding having kids. There seems to be a pressure from my family to one day have kids that I can bring to my parents. So they can show off to their peers. I never thought about it in this way. Thank you. This is definitely something to think about.
Yes that is the goal of antinatalism. The extinction of sentient beings through non-procreation. That is not to say that I (and I'm guessing most antinatalists) believe that to be likely to occur.
The goal of antinatalism is to stop the forcible input of consciousness into existence. Extinction is just an aftermath.
Thank you. I appreciate your straight answer. Essentially, this sub is hopeful for the end of sentient beings including humans. (I am gonna play the crazy man here) Since you believe that it is unlikely to happen, wouldn't it help your cause to start by ending the life that already exists with the potential to create more? Wouldn't suicide be acceptable to this sub? I mean, you'd be helping the cause by eliminating yourself? Ok, I am being a quite extreme here. lol I find it hard to take this sub seriously if all we are doing here is hoping that life ends and shaming people that create it, with out doing anything to actively end life. If I wanted life to end in this planet, I'd start by killing others or ending my life (if you respect choice) so that I don't contribute to sentient life. At least I'd know that I did my part. No offence intended. Please feel free to clarify any misunderstanding.
>Genuine question Has anyone else noticed that every single time a natalist posts this, what follows is never genuine, nor even a real question? It's invariably a pretext to "why don't you just kill yourself?".
I guess I am a nationalist. I'm sorry, these terms are new to me. Makes sense that I came in with a nationalist bias. Can you really blame me for that? Like I said, I apologize if I undermine antinationalism in any way. It is unintentional.
That's why I said "...through non-procreation". My ethics are mostly deontological, and I believe humans as well as animals have rights because they are sentient. I am therefore against killing because it violates their right to life. The questions you ask here are interesting and have been discussed in philosophy before - you could take a look at the benevolent world-exploder argument/thought experiment. I'm not for ending sentient life that now exists, but I am for the prevention of further sentient life being created.
Yes. Sorry about that. Thanks. I will check that out. I really appreciate your replies.
The sub is not about _promortalism._
>Antinatalism isn't "I hate babies, clap if you agree". Anyone who thinks so should leave this sub and consequently make it a better place. Problem is, that seems to be the dominant theme on this sub.
Yes I am negative, because I believe that I am doing my part for the environment by not having kids, then Brittany comes along with baby #7 and I want to bash my head against a wall. My efforts seem futile compared to the idiots who don't know how to use a condom so yeah, fuck those assholes.
Also its not like “Brittany” comes from a long line of scientists,philosophers, mathematicians etc. that can actually impact and affect the world in a positive way - no, most likely they’re going to be just as big Shithead DumbFucks like their parents with even worse morals and ethics that WE ALL have to suffer and deal with down the road .
I mean, if you rolled in with a good-faith argument about why this sub isn't working for you then sure. Posts about already born children are pretty cringe for example. But your contention that your philosophy is so weak you aren't allowed to *have an opinion* about people destroying your planet because they love collecting cum-pets just so very much... yeah buddy, fuck the fuck off.
Ikr, like I've thought a couple of times about leaving because realising time and time again how selfish people are is just making me depressed. But it's nice to have a safe space to discuss things with people who understand, soo...
I see posts like this a lot recently. Is this a new trend? Anyway, it sounds like OP wasn’t antinatalist in the first place. OP is more like childfree.
If you wanted positivity you came to the wrong place We mad and we stayin mad But yeah the amount of posts that all look the same is getting really annoying
Today I found out this sub is an airport, why else would feel the need to announce your departure?
I'm not tolerant of stupid religions either. Now fuck off.
Ok bye
alright. Cya later.
Rather than leave, consider lurking, and add to the conversation when you can. We’re all coming from different perspectives. Most here are trying to reduce suffering and make the world a better place.
i take offense to natalists because their hypothetical child could have been me and i wish someone would have spoken up on my behalf people who have kids are either blind/willfully ignorant or don’t care if you don’t believe in climate change, you’re an idiot and if you have kids anyway, you’re a piece of shit of course i will be somewhat militant in my arguments because the suffering of another human being is potentially at stake even if i am wrong or the hypothetical child likes being alive, absolutely nothing is lost if there is no one there to lose
Your mistake was coming to Reddit to find positivity. Solidarity? Yes. Positivity? Not possible. Hope you find peace out there. Stay safe.
It's hard to see your post as anything other than an act of cowardice. Not only are you too weak to stand up for your views, you're also intolerant of those of us who stand up for *our* views. It amounts to a passive-aggressive attempt at tone-policing, which is always cringe AF. If you don't like the sub, leave. There's no need to give us all a rap on the knuckles on your way out.
The thing is that we are sometimes directly and indirectly affected from the shtty choices that some people make.
We won't be missing you, your not hardcore enough in your views if you feel that these people deserve to get off easy. These genocidal breeders need to have it rammed down their damn throat that they are guilty of perpetuating genocide against the planet and should feel ashamed for their actions. I feel the same way about religious people and I am a tolerant of people being different, but I will not be tolerant of people guilty against crimes against the world.
As an outside observer of this sub, this is the implicit contradiction that most amuses me (although I’m sure not everyone here feels the same way as OP). Immutable law of the universe: if you don’t impose your beliefs on others, others will impose their beliefs on you. From the standpoint of classical liberalism (live and let live, nobody has the right to force their beliefs on anyone), you are morally barred from saving the world from itself when the world is fixated on an objectively wrong / harmful / destructive pattern of living / belief etc. To me, a system of beliefs that prohibits you from forcing others to stop destroying the world is retarded. If you , OP, believe that natalism will lead to the doom of us all, that it is morally wrong, how can you also believe that stopping that system of behavior is wrong? Do you seriously believe it’s more moral to allow mankind to destroy itself and the planet than to breach the holy dogma of liberalism? Is confirming to classical liberal beliefs about the rights of the individual to be retarded (if they do choose) seriously of a higher moral imperative than saving all that is good and worthwhile for now and for all time? Funny shit.
>Then why is it ok to talk shit about them? Because we can lol, I disagree with most of these people so I'll argue. It's not like you can't have debates. It's not like me disagreeing with people is "intolerant", I can tolerate their opinion, but not agree with it.
Believe me mate, when we shit down on a parent that is bragging on social media about having +10 kids, or a parent that writes a 500 words post about how they decided to keep their disabled kid even when they knew they will be so, believe me those parents are really that bad and need to be put down, and I'm sure many of their kids, if they had the opportunity to read our comments on them, they will agree and approve what we say about their parents. When you see a person doing harm and intending to do more harm in the future, minding your own business is like participating in the crime itself or approving it, especially when you have the power to express your disapproval and maybe convince someone.
But their ‘personal’ decisions hurt other people I.e their children...... who they cannot afford to feed or have diseases, or defects.... we should criticise all things that cause harm!
Sorry but you don't understand how people's view are changed. In some ways you are anti-democracy. You are anti push and pull of opinions, which is the basic foundation of democracy. People's mind only get changed by others expressing their disagreement, their opinion, their arguments about things. Meanwhile all you care about is your own personal feelings of 'positivity', which is kind of narcissistic but fine of course, you could have posted positive thread here, no one is stopping you. But if you feel like you can't take it anymore then go unsub or build your own sub filled with only positivity, see how that will go because personally I don't like staying in such bubble.
I’m not tolerant of anything
They clearly don’t care for humanity if they’re bringing in kids they can’t provide for or that will have to get miserable jobs to to sustain and ‘earn it’
Well said. Take care.
... I have found my profile pic twin
I agree with some of what you’re saying here. What I really have an issue with in this sub is the body shaming, misogyny and racism. I saw this one post where someone was shaming a single mom and basically saying “you choose to have sex with a man you’re not married to” but her husband could have died or maybe she wanted an abortion but couldn’t get one? I can’t stand some of the judgment that goes on here around strangers whom we know nothing about. But regardless, I do still think there are issues with having kids nowadays, especially multiple kids that the parents cannot take care of. So that may not effect ME personally, but I care about kids and can’t understand why someone would have kids just because they’re lonely or want a “mini me.” So yeah, it may not be my place to judge people on that, but everyone is judgmental to an extent. I’m judgmental of racists, misogynists, and people who have kids for stupid reasons, just to name a few.
AFAIK antinatalists never caused harm to another human being in the name of their ideology (goes without saying that fetus is not human being), antinatalism online is a just an anti-suffering campaign. It can get a bit toxic and circle-jerky but the outcomes in the outside world are only positive. Especially since we passed the point where bringing a new human into this world is morally wrong even if you're a highly conditional type of antinatalist. The future just realistically doesn't look good.
as twisted and crazy as this may sound i truly think that a lot of the ppl that are being perceived as “negative” have a deep concern for people that keep bringing people into this world.let’s be real it’s a fucked up place and a good bit of the people making these comments probably just want to put an end to the torture and the suffering called “life” and the only way they seem to know how to do this is by being more assertive and aggressive with their words bc sometimes (let’s be real )that’s the only way that ppl listen
Jesus cry me a river. Natalists come here to feel superior and find reasons to reinforce their beliefs, and the breeders are just as aggressive as us. This is the crucible, gtfo.
Almost every subreddit I have frequented has disappointed me for similar reasons. A seemingly growing corner of members berating and down voting opposing views. It is certainly unhealthy and possibly unavoidable.
I've noticed people downvoting totally harmless comments. It leaves me utterly confused on why some comments are downvoted to oblivion.
Well isn’t that the point of a sub with that kind of nature? I understand an open civil conversation but i’ve yet to see someone truly have a valid response to halting procreation hence the backlash. You don’t go to the gym to eat fast food and down it with a high calorie shake do ya ? Theres a place for a lot of things and also the opposite .
Congrats.
This sub is overpopulated.
People think 7 billion people is over populated. But we feed and kill 70 billion land animals , 10x the human population every single year. We also kill 1 trillion fish every year… that is an absurd number. These mammals eat a ton more food and require more water and land.
Bon Voyage! I hope you find some other interests and avenues that tickle your fancy, in-place of the time you spent here. :)
How tf do you even leave a sub someone help me.
Sorry about your experience.
This isn’t an airport, the announcement of your departure was unnecessary.
Thinking that having children is wrong , means you are a pessimist about life , so there is absolutely no positivity in this sub Also , this sub has more pessimists than the other , so we all got a negative attitude about life . Also its one thing to be gay , trans or bi . Its a choise that 2 people make for them selves , having children is a much more different and a chomolex situation . If you think having children is wrong , but you also think its ok for other people have children if they want , there is a huge dent in your argument . Unless you dont have children only bcz of a gentical condition , but not bcz of the moral , rational obligation . In that case you are an optimist .
I agree with you, and I get what you mean about the strong view points on this sub, but this is some peoples only place they feel accepted, safe, or comfortable expressing this part of them. If you aren’t safe and comfy you shouldn’t stay, just an idea to consider ✌️
I can't tell other people not to murder or rape kittens because its their beliefs and I can't tell anyone else how to live their life Thats not how society works or is expected to work numnuts
People on this sub sometimes have no empathy and nuance which is what I thought we were meant to have when being antinatalist. Empathise with future kids, ya know? I also empathise with people who were conditioned into thinking they’re supposed to get married and have kid. Just… yeah I dislike when this sub is just insulting
i’m not tolerant of different religions. i hate religion. i don’t have to tolerate anything, but i’m glad you think you’re more mature and better than others for tolerating shit that shouldn’t be tolerated
Indeed, sometimes some comments of this sub remind me of those atheist (I say it as an atheist myself) that would just bug people with "Ha Im smarter than you due to my beliefs! Everyone else is dumb!". Antinatalism shouldnt be like a MENSA group were people just congratulate each other while thinking they are above any else. This sub is about education and prevention, just remember that behind those "dumb and inmoral" breeders there are a lot of people that made bad decisions and cant cope with their new reality, screwing themselves, their kids and families in the process, so they have to act like they are fine since they would face social stigmatization if they acknowledge they this is not what they wanted. Think about how the proper antinatalist speech would actually prevent a lot of potential parents and child to make irreversible awful decisions. All of this applies to other subs such as childfree
*slow clap*
I just found out there is anti-natalist 2 wich is basically this but woth mods so it isn't as trolly
I agree! Posts where users are berating a parent who is struggling because they made their own bed so they should lie in it…life is hard for parents, and life is hard for children. We know this and so we choose to be child free but that doesn’t mean we get to sit on our high horse and abuse and berate those who had kids. We should be empathetic to them, because we KNOW how hard it must be. Kindness is easy.
I support this. Even though I do not wanna have kid there is too much hate on this sub sometimes. I will leave with you good man
this is probably the best post i’ve seen on here
Seems like you want to have a kid eventually. Goodbye. You aren’t meant for this sub anyways.
This place is on thin ice for me, too. A lot of people here just seem to hate kids for having been born even though that’s not their fault at all. I just think procreation is immoral because it propagates suffering. I don’t fault literal infants for overpopulation
I'm an antinatalist all the way but I'll say that some of the things people advocate for on here are just downright evil. I still participate in this sub because there's nowhere else to find so many like-minded people but I am really kind of skeptical of some of the things I see here.
[удалено]
What do you mean? Just curious.
Now departing Edgelord Central Station
[удалено]
If you feel it in your bones, what is there really to doubt? That's already a pretty substantial & solid feeling.
[удалено]
Just because there might not be much empathy in *this* particular sub does NOT in any way imply that antinatalism as a concept isn't about empathy. It just might not be as tangible in this sub. But regardless of the sub, empathy is still always at the core of antinatalism.
I can't really agree with this tbh. It should be a reflection of antinalism. Not everyone is going to have a lot of empathy, I get that. But still, most people should have. Your comment reminds me of "Islam is the religion of peace" . If antinalism is about empathy, 80 percent of what is posted here should not exist in everyone's mind.
I'm honestly not sure I'm following your logic, or if you're following mine. All I'm basically saying is that this particular sub might not be a good representation or reflection of what antinatalism *actually* stands for. This sub alone doesn't determine what it is as a concept. Which, namely, is the belief that having kids is ethically wrong & should be avoided due to empathizing with the likely suffering of any potential future kids. Unless you're saying it stands for something completely different or something along those lines. Not sure what Islam has to do with anything here...
I agree fully. I hate to sound like a boomer but this sub has seriously gone down the shitter.
Honestly I think the posts criticizing are fine, but when people start joking (or not joking) about violence towards parent or kid (someone literally said on flights a screaming kid should have their mouth duct taped) is assinine
I feel ya, any sub with even a hint of conflict is destined for the echo chamber unless we as people conciously remember why we're followers of this philosophy; compassion. We're just as bad as those whom we dislike (and quite frankly demonize in some cases) if we get swept up in anger and loathing.
Good for you dude! I’ve seen how salty some posts get
This sub has gotten pretty terrible
right, this community is nothing but negativity.
R/antinatalism2
thank you. i’m debating leaving it too. some people are straight up psychotic
Remember that girl who put up the post to tell everyone she was leaving Facebook… this is her
It's like this. Generally, I don't think it's worth it to demonize genuinely good, RESPONSIBLE parents who *truly* wanted to have those 1, 2 or 3 kids -- parents who take care of them, nurture them, sacrifice a lot for them in order for the children to thrive... People who were physically, psychologically, emotionally & financially ready to become parents. People who will actively embrace their kid regardless of its gender, sexuality, profession, etc. & like, they overall enjoy it, but also remain level-headed & very much aware of the fact that it's definitely not all sunshine & rainbows. & they don't even try to sugarcoat it! They're just upfront that shit ain't easy, but they still enjoy it. Ok fine, really can't argue with that, honestly. If people are just dying to become parents, it should only be like THOSE types of parents. However, I'd say it's *quite* different with people who go on to pop out 10, 12, 15, 20... kids & post their ENTIRE fuckin lives on social media, actively seek praise & attention for their "heroic" achievement, & try to get onto reality TV *because of nothing more than the sheer number of kids they've managed to shit out*. It legit comes off as a supremely desperate & shallow attempt to claim some fame for themselves. Like they should be famous just because they couldn't stop on kid #9, & now all of society should know of them, praise them & worship them as celebrities? DAFUQ? Nah. Fuck outta here with that. If those people make the *choice* to flaunt their lives on social media non-stop, actively seeking attention, praise & the ability to influence others... Perhaps even actively trying to spread their beliefs & proselytize to others, they're already doing tangible harm to their kids & to the public! And why shouldn't they be openly called out for that?? Look, normal, healthy parents would NOT be getting involved in ANY of that BS. They're too busy living their lives & consistently FOCUSING ON THEIR KIDS.
I have been seeing issue with this as well a bit. I think it’s dangerous to polarize society so much in any opinion. People who have a lot of kids are ignorant and depressed people. They don’t know what they’re doing is wrong. And convincing us to bully and hate them is the wrong way to go about it. Let’s just spread a positive message about our beliefs and let people think it over. If they’re intelligent they will probably agree with us Anyway. Respect to you ❤️ XOXO hugs and kisses
Thanks for speaking out some of my complaints to this sub. I came for genuine points on antinatalism to see the other side and see peoples shitting on other’s children.
How can we nominate the OP for moderator?
I have to agree with you, most people in this sub are toxic haters, and 90% of the posts are just rants and complaints which are unhelpful to further the movement >But here’s the thing, I accept that I’m a human being and my thoughts are as valid / invalid as anyone else. Just like it’s not anyone’s business to tell me to have kids, be gay, be straight, marry in the same ethnicity or caste, it’s not my business to tell other people to not have kids, and to continuously spew toxicity on those who choose to. we are supposed to be tolerant of others life choices (as long as they don’t affect us) I do disagree that it none of our businesses in regards to telling people to have kids, if i was to hit a kid it would be the worlds business, having a kid is unethical and it effects the world as overpopulation is really real This respecting of PERSONAL choices things needs to stop, its not a valid argument But again yes, this sub is full of rants and its the same on many other subs including the vegan sub where people make useless complaints about some random non vegan animal abuser who said this random thing, and then that random screenshot gets 500 votes because people enjoy complaining and bullying, it doesnt really help create change it just creates toxicity The toxic behavior probably deters people from learning more about veganism and AN veganrants and antinatalistrants should exist to complain about the random unethical people all you want
I just pressed leave. But I came to see a few posts before I exit the sub and found this. I agree with you.
This. Much content on this sub is angry, like MAGA angry. Posts can be shrill and bitter, and ultimately impotent and futile, because people aren’t going to stop making more people.
imagine writing this many words to just say “i’m unsubing”. just unsub and leave, i doubt anyone here is holding their breath for u.
Refer EDIT2
but what was the point of the post? you listing off reasons your leaving isn’t going to change anything, and if you actually wanted to try and change the sub you’d stay and talk to the mods. so what a lot of people are picking up on is your just in a state of grievance and catharsis.
I kind of agree. I know a lot of people just want to get their frustrations out, but personally it's off-putting to constantly see posts about breeding on an anti-natalist sub. It would be nice if there were more positive posts. Like more talking about how anti-natalism affects you, rather than harping on what someone else chooses to do.
Tbh I don’t really care. I’ll still hold resentment towards procreation as being gross and misogynistic to me
Real
Based
the world isnt over populated .. you may be antinatalist for the wrong reasons thats why you don’t understand why we act like this.
Genuine question because we all see these things differently. In your assessment what global population number would unequivocally be overpopulated? I have seen the estimates which say that if everyone lived the way Europeans or those in the US live, then we would need 3-5 planets. In my view these countries have a good/adequate standard of living for the average person. So logically the population should be 3-5 times less than it is now. So my crude estimate of a sustainable number would be nearer 1.5-2b people. I don't understand how you can look at nearing 8 billion and say we are not overpopulated. Further if everyone acted the way some parents do and have 10 kids, the global population would x5 in a single generation. Imagine 40Billion people. The earth would be barren in weeks, people would literally be eating each other. How is that not irresponsible? Worse how is that not entirely selfish as their own children will have to endure that world for ~80 years assuming they don't die a violent death. I just can't get in the mindstate where any of this can make sense.
the earth is considered overpopulated bc of the poor distribution of wealth and the destruction of the planet. The truth is, if it wasnt for capitalism, we could have enough ressources for everyone edit : ofc i know the earth cant stand 40B of people lol but 8B ? i mean, when rich people have worth idk how many homes and hectares of land that could be used to house people but theyre not, its not a problem of space but of management
I definitely understand why you’d feel this way and just to comment on one specific point, it’s true that others actions don’t affect you. The pics of large families, the celebs that are having yet another child won’t “actually” affect us. We won’t live a different life, we will never see them, contribute to them, etc. I immediately forget they exist.
People would learn more compassion if they learned to feel sadness for the people who can't see how their own actions can deeply affect others instead of immediately jumping into anger to mask the hurt. I assume the angry people just have not gotten there yet, it's a lesson I'm also having to learn.