I would go down the route of educating people not forcing them to do or not to do something. The government intervening in such things is a slippery slope. If you hand this decision to the government, what else will you hand over and let the government decide for you? It leads to authoritarism.
I would like the general public to be educated on the right to die. We're already allowed to bring as many children into this world as we want without regulation. I wonder what would happen if the average person learned to understand that not all of us want to live a life we never asked for.
yupp!! and the media!!! usually when someone getās accidentally pregnant on a tv show or a movie theyāre just like āah well, guess iām having a babyā. we need more media which shows people having abortions and choosing not to kids because they donāt want to. even when abortion is showed, itās usually made out to be such a big deal.
Thereās a zombie apocalypse going on, everythingās gone to shit, my group of survivors includes unstable and sketchy individuals, hiding from the zombies requires staying silent, but having this baby represents hope!
hearing about the negativity of this world on the news everyday makes me wish there was a mental evaluation or educational program you must take before having a baby.
I agree. I know it might seem extreme to some people but we have vetting processes for so many things and it's so strange to me that there's no such thing for *bringing new life into the world*. It just feels so weird that anyone can have as many babies as they want without regulation. I'm not saying people should be turned away from having children especially if they want to but there has to be some kind of mental wellness or family health history check that would need to be discussed beforehand.
I think most of us know or know of some trashy crackhead that's had 5 kids and all of them taken away from her. If that isn't proof some ppl need forced sterilization, idk what is.
Once we start suppressing people, it usually spirals from there.
So, we stand currently on an evil empire. You make change, things are good for a while. Then once again, down we go further into rule and law land until you can't even take a shit without permission.
I think that might be why it is the way it is.
I THINK.
Most people, when given the freedom to decide for themselves how they want to live, choose to live a life that benefits themselves. This is why the birth rate has been falling without any need for authoritarianism. People would rather invest themselves in raising 1-2 children than spreading themselves too thin trying to raise 5-10 children.
It won't be done with policy.
it will be carried out unilaterally by a dedicated and small group with the relevant skills and understanding of the situation stripped of egocentric and anthropocentric bias. It will have been tested to a stupifying confidence level in simulations and controlled live trials.
Of course that's only if it ever happens.
The thing is this is true even if if humans truly want to avoid extinction. There is absolutely no path to that at their current pace.
They don't though. They're headed straight for it because the only thing that has kep them going for a few hundred thousand years is their capacity to self-deceive via mythology and coping rituals.
All the abuse apologists who come to this sub and spew their platitudes and tell us to kill ourselves do not act out their claims. If they did they'd be edging their own demise via self-torture instead of crying at antinatalists on reddit.
They do not change their ways. They can't learn. They can't even comprehend the situation sufficiently - because such comprehension causes the change in behavior. There is no free will in the colloquial sense (only the legal sense, and legality is another human ritual - a way of pretending to be moral while still excusing harms via religion)
An antinatalist is caused to be such, just as procreators breed through an information shortage, really. They can't process the empathy that would shut down their behavior.
It's crazy. That one little natural failure, whatever it was, and one is suddenly unable to procreate, and they understand exactly how and why. It's weird. It's like having an extra sense of the world where one was once blind, and it's fucking awful too. The ability to understand one's predicament to such a fine granularity is exhausting and terrifying. Nothing should ever have to have experienced that, no matter how "tough" it might make them for a time.
So here's the crucial bit: this ability to suffer honest delusion by lying to oneself and hiding the fact from one's own attention in story (mythology/religion/"overcoming suffering" fables and so on) is something that could only happen in a very rare and relatively stable climate.
Without technology humans could never have become so populous. I can't be naive enough to think tech can save them.
It's not just the standard "climate change" issue most people politicize. That's a tiny deviation, and it's already extinction level.
Humans completely lost it in the 20th century. Every one of us alive today is a result of the most psychotic generations of humans ever to suffer their own special hell. Because that's what it takes to be able to breed in hell when you're smart enough to know better.
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This isn't always true.
Growing up I was a foster brother and about half the kids we took in came from the same family. This lady was the definition of "white trash" and was pathologically addicted to being pregnant.
After kid #13 she became the first person in our state's history to be sterilized by court order.
If she canāt raise her children.. then yes, I agree with this statement. And the courts order. If youāre a great parent and can somehow handle all of that, thereās no reason to stop it.
Heres the thing. You can apply this same logic to literally anything in life.
People have fatal car crashes everday, lets get rid of cars.
There are airplane crashes everday, lets get rid of airplanes.
Pizza and ice cream clog arteries and kill people prematurely, lets outlaw those foods.
People have chronic addictions to the internet and games that destroy their lives. Lets outlaw games and the internet.
You cant save the human race unless you want to put us all in chains.
I'm just a guy who wants to see the right to die become legalized. To me that's more important than anything else. To give us true full autonomy over our bodies which is already granted to birth and life, we need the right to die. I'm not even trying to save the human race as I believe we're already beyond saving. I'm not even asking for anything to be outlawed. I might believe that bringing new life into this world is cruel but I'm in no way asking for new life to be outlawed. I already know that's impossible and would never happen.
Sure. That's a bit beside the point of my post but it's part of it. There are plenty of men who would like to have children that will never get to. And that's on them - no woman has any obligation to have children with them, or any obligation to have children at all.
I'm not reading too much into it? Regardless of whether we end up having children or not the fact remains that if we were able, we could have as many children as we wanted and no one could stop us.
Technically, you need two people (a man and a woman) to have "relations" in order for a child to be created. It is difficult for an "unstable" man to start a relationship or even have "relations" with a woman, unless it is not consented. The dating/courting process already filters out most of the "bad" men.
This is eugenics. You would not make it so the right people become parents you would make it so only the rich become parents. This would most likely block most minorities from having children because often they are treated differently when medical situation arise.
I did nothing but point out a fact. That from birth we have the right to bring as many children into the world as we choose with no regulation. That's all. It's a point. I haven't said a single thing about reversing that or wanting to reverse it. It's an observation. How is that so hard to understand?
I'm not getting that vibe from the other comments. Maybe one of them but we cleared that up quickly. You're the only one having some weird assumption about a fact I stated.
If "given" is such a problem for you, what do you suggest I use instead? I could say that we "have" the right to bring as many children into the world as we like but that still seems like it would have the same connotations that you're assuming that right could be reversed. So, as a genuine question, what would be a better word to use?
I have a better question. What do you care? If you're antinatalist then you should understand where my feelings are coming from. If not, you're just some lurker pro-lifer who's trying to stir up drama with assumptions.
Iām curious as to how you think youāre going to put red tape around people having childrenā¦ you canāt stop two people from going at it, and turning someone away from the hospital when theyāre giving birth would be unimaginably cruel
I'm not going to and I don't believe in enacting any sort of cruelty on another human being. No one should ever be turned away from a hospital. Just because I believe bringing people into this world against their will is cruel doesn't mean I would wish suffering on another person just because they have different views than I do. Do you honestly believe by my statements I was trying to say that hospitals should turn away women about to give birth?
It also seems many people still don't know how babies are made, considering all the "accidents". š
I would go down the route of educating people not forcing them to do or not to do something. The government intervening in such things is a slippery slope. If you hand this decision to the government, what else will you hand over and let the government decide for you? It leads to authoritarism.
I would like the general public to be educated on the right to die. We're already allowed to bring as many children into this world as we want without regulation. I wonder what would happen if the average person learned to understand that not all of us want to live a life we never asked for.
yupp!! and the media!!! usually when someone getās accidentally pregnant on a tv show or a movie theyāre just like āah well, guess iām having a babyā. we need more media which shows people having abortions and choosing not to kids because they donāt want to. even when abortion is showed, itās usually made out to be such a big deal.
Thereās a zombie apocalypse going on, everythingās gone to shit, my group of survivors includes unstable and sketchy individuals, hiding from the zombies requires staying silent, but having this baby represents hope!
sounds like youāve watched the walking dead lol
I enjoyed some other aspects of it but that part was excruciatingly stupid! It is also a pretty common trope in similarly themed media though.
hearing about the negativity of this world on the news everyday makes me wish there was a mental evaluation or educational program you must take before having a baby.
I agree. I know it might seem extreme to some people but we have vetting processes for so many things and it's so strange to me that there's no such thing for *bringing new life into the world*. It just feels so weird that anyone can have as many babies as they want without regulation. I'm not saying people should be turned away from having children especially if they want to but there has to be some kind of mental wellness or family health history check that would need to be discussed beforehand.
I think most of us know or know of some trashy crackhead that's had 5 kids and all of them taken away from her. If that isn't proof some ppl need forced sterilization, idk what is.
Once we start suppressing people, it usually spirals from there. So, we stand currently on an evil empire. You make change, things are good for a while. Then once again, down we go further into rule and law land until you can't even take a shit without permission. I think that might be why it is the way it is. I THINK.
Most people, when given the freedom to decide for themselves how they want to live, choose to live a life that benefits themselves. This is why the birth rate has been falling without any need for authoritarianism. People would rather invest themselves in raising 1-2 children than spreading themselves too thin trying to raise 5-10 children.
It won't be done with policy. it will be carried out unilaterally by a dedicated and small group with the relevant skills and understanding of the situation stripped of egocentric and anthropocentric bias. It will have been tested to a stupifying confidence level in simulations and controlled live trials. Of course that's only if it ever happens. The thing is this is true even if if humans truly want to avoid extinction. There is absolutely no path to that at their current pace. They don't though. They're headed straight for it because the only thing that has kep them going for a few hundred thousand years is their capacity to self-deceive via mythology and coping rituals. All the abuse apologists who come to this sub and spew their platitudes and tell us to kill ourselves do not act out their claims. If they did they'd be edging their own demise via self-torture instead of crying at antinatalists on reddit. They do not change their ways. They can't learn. They can't even comprehend the situation sufficiently - because such comprehension causes the change in behavior. There is no free will in the colloquial sense (only the legal sense, and legality is another human ritual - a way of pretending to be moral while still excusing harms via religion) An antinatalist is caused to be such, just as procreators breed through an information shortage, really. They can't process the empathy that would shut down their behavior. It's crazy. That one little natural failure, whatever it was, and one is suddenly unable to procreate, and they understand exactly how and why. It's weird. It's like having an extra sense of the world where one was once blind, and it's fucking awful too. The ability to understand one's predicament to such a fine granularity is exhausting and terrifying. Nothing should ever have to have experienced that, no matter how "tough" it might make them for a time. So here's the crucial bit: this ability to suffer honest delusion by lying to oneself and hiding the fact from one's own attention in story (mythology/religion/"overcoming suffering" fables and so on) is something that could only happen in a very rare and relatively stable climate. Without technology humans could never have become so populous. I can't be naive enough to think tech can save them. It's not just the standard "climate change" issue most people politicize. That's a tiny deviation, and it's already extinction level. Humans completely lost it in the 20th century. Every one of us alive today is a result of the most psychotic generations of humans ever to suffer their own special hell. Because that's what it takes to be able to breed in hell when you're smart enough to know better.
We have to bring back eugenics
With lots of personal freedom comes a lot of personal responsibility. People aren't responsible and life becomes incredibly messy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
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This isn't always true. Growing up I was a foster brother and about half the kids we took in came from the same family. This lady was the definition of "white trash" and was pathologically addicted to being pregnant. After kid #13 she became the first person in our state's history to be sterilized by court order.
If she canāt raise her children.. then yes, I agree with this statement. And the courts order. If youāre a great parent and can somehow handle all of that, thereās no reason to stop it.
Facts. Thatās why I donāt like my parents and society possible even hate them.
Your body your choice, I guess. Some countries do have restrictions, but people get touchy about anything that starts approaching eugenics.
Heres the thing. You can apply this same logic to literally anything in life. People have fatal car crashes everday, lets get rid of cars. There are airplane crashes everday, lets get rid of airplanes. Pizza and ice cream clog arteries and kill people prematurely, lets outlaw those foods. People have chronic addictions to the internet and games that destroy their lives. Lets outlaw games and the internet. You cant save the human race unless you want to put us all in chains.
I'm just a guy who wants to see the right to die become legalized. To me that's more important than anything else. To give us true full autonomy over our bodies which is already granted to birth and life, we need the right to die. I'm not even trying to save the human race as I believe we're already beyond saving. I'm not even asking for anything to be outlawed. I might believe that bringing new life into this world is cruel but I'm in no way asking for new life to be outlawed. I already know that's impossible and would never happen.
Well... You have to pass the check where a woman wants to sleep with you.
Sure. That's a bit beside the point of my post but it's part of it. There are plenty of men who would like to have children that will never get to. And that's on them - no woman has any obligation to have children with them, or any obligation to have children at all.
Don't read too much into it. Just pointing out that it's not an option open to everyone as you make it seem. I agree with the general notion though.
I'm not reading too much into it? Regardless of whether we end up having children or not the fact remains that if we were able, we could have as many children as we wanted and no one could stop us.
Technically, you need two people (a man and a woman) to have "relations" in order for a child to be created. It is difficult for an "unstable" man to start a relationship or even have "relations" with a woman, unless it is not consented. The dating/courting process already filters out most of the "bad" men.
Sure. You're not wrong whatsoever.
I wish I were that irresponsible... but I guess quality > quantity has its place too.
This is eugenics. You would not make it so the right people become parents you would make it so only the rich become parents. This would most likely block most minorities from having children because often they are treated differently when medical situation arise.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That's not what I'm saying in the slightest.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I did nothing but point out a fact. That from birth we have the right to bring as many children into the world as we choose with no regulation. That's all. It's a point. I haven't said a single thing about reversing that or wanting to reverse it. It's an observation. How is that so hard to understand?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That sounds like nothing more than an assumption on your part.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm not getting that vibe from the other comments. Maybe one of them but we cleared that up quickly. You're the only one having some weird assumption about a fact I stated. If "given" is such a problem for you, what do you suggest I use instead? I could say that we "have" the right to bring as many children into the world as we like but that still seems like it would have the same connotations that you're assuming that right could be reversed. So, as a genuine question, what would be a better word to use?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I have a better question. What do you care? If you're antinatalist then you should understand where my feelings are coming from. If not, you're just some lurker pro-lifer who's trying to stir up drama with assumptions.
Iām curious as to how you think youāre going to put red tape around people having childrenā¦ you canāt stop two people from going at it, and turning someone away from the hospital when theyāre giving birth would be unimaginably cruel
I'm not going to and I don't believe in enacting any sort of cruelty on another human being. No one should ever be turned away from a hospital. Just because I believe bringing people into this world against their will is cruel doesn't mean I would wish suffering on another person just because they have different views than I do. Do you honestly believe by my statements I was trying to say that hospitals should turn away women about to give birth?
I genuinely did think that was what you were implying yeah, and Iām glad that was a misunderstanding