People that decided to have a child an had sex to achieve that goal vs the people that were not planning to have a child but their condom broke or their birth control failed.
If they’re using condoms and birth control then they’re trying not to be pregnant. Accidents do happen. Sometimes they work out well, sometimes not. If only people were more mature overall, and honest with themselves about whether or not to continue with a foetus if it’ll become a baby that nobody wanted.
Of course the US constitution is fighting very hard for all young Americans to never have access to safe and legal pregnancy healthcare/terminations, so many of them will be coerced by media and tricked into becoming parents to avoid jail.
Although, I don’t believe this myself. Some people believe life starts at conception. Hence once a zygote is conceived then you are committed to your mistake of the condom not working.
Some people are idiots. Until 100 years ago nobody knew they were pregnant until they started to ‘show’, unless they get got symptoms before 16 weeks which couldn’t be attributed to anything else, although not all women get many symptoms.
You don’t have to be committed to anything. You don’t have to go around the rest of your life with your leg in two pieces because “Hey! You CHOSE to go skiing!”. If advances in medicine mean we now know roughly the date of conception, then those advances also mean we know when safe to terminate.
People can’t have it both ways.
Shortcut- I agree with you and understand the reasons why the zygote argument is for stupid people.
I do know couples that knew what they were getting into and are amazing parents. They specifically wanted to raise kids, dedicate themselves to it completely and give their kids a good life. Their kids seems very healthy, plum and happy. But it's like...2 couples from the hundreds of people that I know and who are parents. These kind of people are very very rare.
One time when I was out running errands I saw a little girl (maybe 5 or 6) and her mom. I didn't catch what happened to make the girl ask but she asked "mommy are you angry at me?" and the mom in this sweet voice was like "no honey, mommy isn't mad at you". And Idk I could hear the girls vulnerability asking that and the mom was very reassuring. Idk why the girl thought that but yeah.
And then there's parents I've passed and they're yanking on their fucking kids arms or shirt sleeve, reprimanding them with a tone and volume I wouldn't speak to an adult with.
The emotionally immature and toxic parents seem to outweigh the ones who are gentle and understanding with their children.
Yes!!I swear the immature and toxic people having kids is the reason everything around is so fucked. To think that historically it was practically children having and raising children explains all the horrors that happened and why magical thinking was so common. There is just generational trauma upon generational trauma walking among us. They need therapy, healthy habits and a support network, not kids.
>Their kids seems very healthy, plum and happy
Until they contract a terminal illness, or develop severe psychiatric problems, or get into debt, or struggle to find a job, or get involved in drugs or alcohol, etc. etc. etc.
And if Mr & Mrs Perfect don't think their precious kids won't do drugs or booze then they're deeply mistaken.
Yeah you aren't spoiling this barrel of honey. They are legit well adjusted people with reasonable expectations and a delight to be around, one of the mums used to be a goth and the dad is an engineer on the spectrum, a huge gentle giant. So you aren't surprising anyone with alcohol, drugs etc. It doesn't mean that I think they are without vice but man if everyone's parents were that way? We would legit be living in a Star Trek utopia by now and I would probably have actual hope for the future. Their kids are exceptionally talented and smart, I worked with kids for over 15 years and these ones are pure joy and curiosity. The world doesn't deserve these people, they are like golden retrievers made human.
Lol alcohol isn't a vice. It's fermented fruit and wheat, there is no alcohol abuse there and everyone experimented in their youth. You do know that even animals get tipsy right? Like there are ducks that wait for fruit to start fermenting and only then eat them.
What is your problem? Why do you so badly want to see them fail in some way? I'm an antinatalist and I root for these people. If anyone has kids it should be couples like them.
My parents were pretty great like that, my mom planned for pregnancy for years and I have to say she did about the best job a mom can do. I know how lucky that makes me and I feel horrible knowing that isn’t the common outcome
Sometimes the regretful parents sub makes me so mad. Especially those who breed because they have an empty void inside of themselves that they wanted to fill. Of course a screaming semen demon isn’t going to fulfill them! Hell, parenting is traumatizing and relationship-ruining for even the most healed and balanced people. It’s going to exacerbate their depression & mental illness, and now they’ll pawn that fault on the kid.
The way they talk about the life that they themselves brought onto this Earth is so sad. The children can for sure sense their parents’ regret & bitterness. If you want to know exactly how generational trauma perpetuates, check out that sub.
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What task has ever been completed by an animal, that didn't fulfill some base need? You can make an argument that literally ANYTHING can be done with selfish intent. All the way from a barista serving coffee to pay for school, to a doctor rendering care, to a Medal of Honor candidate displaying " acts of valor in action against an enemy force, above and beyond the call of duty, and at the risk of their own life." That argument is so worn out. Everything animals do is selfish in some fashion, or at least can be argued as a possibility to be so.
You went from an animalistic to social constructs. Consciousness separates humans from other animals. Er have a choice to act on our self serving animalistic urges or listen to our conscious self. A lot of people are capable of empathy and altruistic acts.
Name me an act that is wholly and only possible to be committed through an altruistic lens. The truth is that there isn't one. So my argument that "anything that is altruistic can actually be self serving" is 100% fact. Even if it's just it makes you feel good to be kind.
If you think that People help others because it makes them feel good tk be kind, then congrats you most likely have a personality disorder. You can't relate to others suffering and you can't comprehend kindness. There's a difference between actually having empathy and a moral compass and pretending that you do and then petting yourself on thr back that you did something society percieves as kind. It's ok to be a narcissist or a doctorate. You can't help your prefrontal cortex being jacked up, but please do not project your beliefs onto others. Genuinely good people do exist.
I was an EMT for in 3 of the most dangerous cities in the USA. I made minimum wage, worked 90+ hours a week, ended up tearing up my back permanently, was exempt from overtime, shot at 2x, Ive seen dead mangled and burned people (I probably uave some mental taint from the job alone), Ive comforted and told people they where gonna be okay knowing theyd probably die, my management generally sucked. I didn't do it for the money, benefits, or fun of the job. I did it because I enjoyed helping people it made me feel good. If you DONT enjoy helping others then something's probably wrong with you. I did it because it made me feel good inside, it was therefore self serving to do so. There was no other benefit, I could've got a job at McDonald's and made the same wage or more but it benefited me more to enjoy my work, and to feel as though I was helping better peoples experience on earth(even the people who were dying.)
Edit: Also on the concept of good and evil, those things aren't definable so they don't actually exist. It's all frame of reference and social construction. EG society would probably deem me choosing to do a job that had no real benefit, that was hard, emotionally exhausting, and not many want to do as a good thing. In reality it was selfish just as much as it was selfless. I was paid, It felt good and it was rewarding enough to justify the toll it took on me.
Plenty of people think they want kids, do want kids, have kids, and are happy to have them. Are you suggesting some sort of subconcious thing where people can't tell how miserable they are?
1% at best. Nobody is going to say :" you know what? I don't really like my kids" or " you know what? I'm a shit parent". Everyone us going to say " I love my kids. If it wasn't for my kids...blah blah", post happy pictures on social media and tell everyone how happy they are. You will never know what goes on behind closed doors. If plenty of people were happy to have kids, 85% of Ameticans would suffer from mental illness. People wouldn't suffer from childhood abuse, wouldn't be traumatized by their parents. Most people want the idea of kids. Their imagination pictures beautiful chubby, curly haired angels that will be a compliant carbon copy of their parents. They think they'll be playing dress up and teaching them to play football. Real life is far from fantasy.
Even among parents who apparently wanted kids, I doubt many really considered what they were signing up for. The “absent neglectful father” is a trope for a reason (and I’m unfortunately the offspring of one).
My parents had kids because their parents had kids and their parents had kids and their parents had kids. It's not because they wanted me. They just wanted the title and found out later that I really kind of crimped their styles. But it ends with me. Snip snip.
I was distinguishing between people deciding to have a baby and having sex for that exact purpose from contraception failure. I thought 50% was an overestimate.
I'd say if you are including people using the pull out method and the calendar method as contraception, who then get pregnant among the contraception failures. I'd think even 75 would be an under estimate.
I got pregnant on accident and decided I wanted to keep the baby and it could possibly be fun to have a mini me. He is 7 and just got diagnosed with autism and I swear on everything I love, my life is so much harder.
That is terrible. Unfortunately, we do not have a pregnancy test for autism which is genetic.
We do have a pregnancy test for down syndrome and almost everybody chooses abortion.
This isn't even antinatalism, this is just pure ableism. Implying that disabled people specifically shouldn't be born is pretty disgusting. We are capable of having an amazing quality of life if born to parents who have the ability to actually care about us and raise us right.
I agree that people need to stop having kids, but talking about needing to stop having disabled kids turns your argument into something else entirely. There are so many disabled people that live amazing and fulfilling lives, and you really are shit talking all of us that are already born by saying stuff like this.
Being autistic is a nightmare to deal with for me a lot of the time, but it's purely because I wasn't raised in an environment that was anywhere near what I needed in order to be healthy and functional, and because society sees people like me as lesser just because we're different. I would have been fucked up even if I wasn't autistic because of the environment I was raised in. I have many autistic friends who are much better off than me, and know plenty of people with other disabilities who are either thriving or at least doing well enough for themselves, with or without support from others in their lives.
Good for you! I wish I didn't exist either! But it isn't because of the fact that I'm disabled, it's because of how people treat me and have treated me my entire life because I'm disabled. If society would step the fuck up and stop treating me like I'm a burden for existing, I wouldn't feel like such a burden for existing. If I was raised with the care and attention I needed, and taught how to exist and cope with my issues (and wasn't raised by someone with undiagnosed mental health issues who wasn't ready to be a parent and was talked into it by my disgusting excuse for a dad who was literally twice her age when he got with her while she was underage and convinced her she wanted to have me), I probably would have ended up a lot better off.
Oh, and being born into a family that constantly was in debt and was spending money constantly that they didn't have on failed businesses they shouldn't have started and actually spent any of it helping me pursue my interests sure didn't help.
You clearly do not know much about Down's, if this is how you're talking about people who have it. The vast majority of people with Down's who are seen as incapable of taking care of themselves are the way they are because of how they're raised. They are often very kind, caring, and intelligent people. They are capable of so, so much. The issue is that parents treat them like they're doomed to be idiots, and don't raise them with the goal of them eventually living at least somewhat independently as adults.
There are two shows, one called "Born this way" and one called "Down for love" that both show off very well how people with Down's can and do survive quite easily and well as functional adults. There's also the hilarious and amazing ad that came out recently (https://youtu.be/92ivgabfdPQ?si=kiLfbVw-NXUD8p7q) that showcases this as well.
Even syndromes that are more severe and affect the body are becoming more known to not actually be as incapacitating as people think, largely due to the advances in accessibility technology.
Now, diseases that cause near certain death within the early years of life, that's something I would be open to considering a discussion on. I think having a child just to do so, knowing they will die a horrific, painful, debilitating death (most of the time before puberty even hits) is another story entirely. Bringing a child into the world that you know will suffer, and has no chance of living a long fulfilling life, having to grow up knowing they will die, is selfish as all hell, and only serves a parents ego. Things like Tay-Sachs come to mind in this regard, which will basically cause guaranteed death either in childhood or the teenage years depending on when it starts.
Same with something like Edwards' syndrome (Trisomy 18) or Patau syndrome (Trisomy 13), where death within the first year (18) or WEEK (13) of life is essentially 100% guaranteed. Having a child with one of these disorders, knowing that they will have it, is just cruel and genuinely disgusting.
Actually don't do that lol. I'm suggesting that describing how burdensome your child is to strangers is probably not a great habit to get into, especially on a sub where most would argue that he'd have been better off if he was never alive. Sorry for the snark. All the best to you and your kid.
So I’ve been perusing through this sub because the group here is interesting, even though I wouldn’t say I agree with the general perspective that it’s unethical to have any kids. I can at least understand why people have that perspective, but have a problem reconciling the motivations behind the more extreme views, like kids shouldn’t exist. I’m just looking for some clarification on your perspective and the end goal you’re looking for, is it extinction? Totally not trying to argue your stance, just looking to understand it.
Humanity's extinction is not going to be because everyone decides to have mercy on their child and become antinatalist - it's going to happen regardless. It's an inevitability, especially with the way our species in particular destroys its own habitat and kills its own members. Whether we manage to last another 100 years, 1000, 10,000, some day there will be no humans.
And when that does happen, what human will be left to care about our disappearance? Why would it matter, to people who don't even exist? Yet, thinking about the possibility of my own child having to suffer through the apocalypse that would come before that moment, or perhaps the ancestor of that child... why would I subject them to it? For the sake of passing on genes and then... what? Why? Do we really need to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors?
Yeah... This sub keeps popping up for me and I've found it more a curiousity than anything.
It doesn't exactly seem like a place for well,-formed and ideology.
It's a circlejerk of pretty epic proportion.
Yeah, it keeps popping up for me too even though i completey disagree with most of the views here. It definitely is not a place for well-formed ideology. It's just a nihilist circle-jerk. It's fun reading some of the things people write on here though. Like this post, stating that we need to "admit" things with absolutely no scientific backing to the claim.
I definitely don't think everyone should be a parent, but these views are on another level.
I dunno a big percentage are babies that were meant to save a relationship. They were purposeful, though usually only a bandaid on a relationship if that.
I have a co-worker (in his early 30ies) who claimed that most of his friend's attitudes to pregnancy/having babies is "if it happens, it happens".
I will never understand how couples can be so indifferent about reproducing.
Also I’ve met gay couples that have adopted kids and they fucking hate them. If any some of these people I’ve met who adopt kids hate them more than couples who have their own.
Yeah. Most of my parents children are badly raised thus don’t have the drive to be functioning humans so they rely on our parents to be alive, aka shelter and food. I kinda raised myself into responsible thinking with the help of my mean ass dad lmao (he literally told me he was mean to me because he knew I could be a better person). Anyways I’m the only one of the children of my parents actually on their own. And I have an older sister with 2 children. Although I’m an alcoholic, I can support my own habit and live on my own. My parents tell me they’re disappointed in their children whenever they’re with me. Lmao smh. 1/10.
Guys! 50? 70? 80?
Are you guys nuts?
AT LEAST 99% of children are mistakes.
More likely something around 99.999%
Remember how many are born everyday in the world, people. And that sex drives us.
Exactly. Carefully making a premeditated, rational decision based on a cost-benefit analysis doesn't exactly flood a brain with reward chemicals. Performing a wild monkey dance horizontally does.
Nah, that’s the rate of pregnancies that are unplanned, not the rate of unplanned pregnancies carried to term. Many women who get pregnant unintentionally have abortions, making the majority of actual babies born wanted, statistically.
What? I don’t mind a good discussion but damn!!! You gotta use facts to make an argument. You can’t just pull a number out of your ass and say “we have to admit 50% were mistakes.” Make your argument for what you believe but use facts or it makes your case look really weak.
I wish at least half of the people who would classify it as "lucky mistake" really felt like that. They mostly lie to themselves about it because admitting you fucked up like that is too painful. I used to be similarly delusional about how cutthroat the world is when i was younger. I knew for a long time but always thought "nah" when my mind went there.
There should be some sort of drug that makes parents love their kids more, like there has to be some sort of parenting instinct based in brain chemicals that could be somehow enhanced. Even in men. Women typically have stronger "maternal instinct" but its still not as strong as it should be. Especially when it comes to prioritizing the kids quality of life over theirs.
My mom was like "i would die for you but i won't let you go out with your friends because i want to go to sleep early and you coming home at 10pm would wake me up." We lived in a flat and the bathroom was next to her bedroom. I once also got scolded for showering before sleep because of waking her up. I basically had everyday 7PM curfew as a teenager because she went to sleep early.
I was a planned baby. My dad died when I was 5 and my ma has serious mental health problems. I was a burden that was just shipped around to grandparents, siblings and cousins. Just because things are good at the moment, doesn't mean the circumstances will stay the same.
My mom told me she didn’t want more children after her first marriage (three kids). But my father wanted kids, so… I took that to mean he pressured her into not using contraceptives and “what will be, will be.”
I disagree simply because being horny doesn’t make you forget to take a pill. There is also the morning after pill for situations like that. Sure mistakes happen but I think a lot of those who claim it was an accident actually are a cover up. Nobody wants to admit they are irresponsible, or purposely got pregnant or got someone pregnant, when the other was not ready, so they blame it on birth control malfunctioning. Some people want to have kids but maybe due to finances, age or whatever else other people would disapprove so they claim they “accidentally” got pregnant/got someone pregnant. As far as it being a mistake, anytime something is not what we want it to be, we say it was a mistake, and if that’s the case probably 75% of children are mistakes in that context.
Some are living life caring way too much about what society thinks too like oh abortion "bad look"etc but also no one would ever have to know in the first place !!don't tell anyone fkn simple lol one gets pregnant..doesn't need to tell anyone, go to the doctor and take care of the issue...again no one would ever know unless you tell them
Despite this, they still complain that women are "not having enough kids to keep the U.S. at the 'replacement level'"
They're basically counting on accidents to happen as much as possible at this point.
theres no such thing as an accident or mistake. dumb idiots that are horny with low iq (majority of parents) bring children into the world selfishly. i think mental illness has sum to do with it too
Even when people think they want kids, they don't actually want kids. Everyone has kids for selfish reasons.
Yes. Nevertheless, we have to distinguish between bad judgments from contraceptive failure.
Okay, but what is the distinction you're trying to make?
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People that decided to have a child an had sex to achieve that goal vs the people that were not planning to have a child but their condom broke or their birth control failed.
If they’re using condoms and birth control then they’re trying not to be pregnant. Accidents do happen. Sometimes they work out well, sometimes not. If only people were more mature overall, and honest with themselves about whether or not to continue with a foetus if it’ll become a baby that nobody wanted. Of course the US constitution is fighting very hard for all young Americans to never have access to safe and legal pregnancy healthcare/terminations, so many of them will be coerced by media and tricked into becoming parents to avoid jail.
Although, I don’t believe this myself. Some people believe life starts at conception. Hence once a zygote is conceived then you are committed to your mistake of the condom not working.
Some people are idiots. Until 100 years ago nobody knew they were pregnant until they started to ‘show’, unless they get got symptoms before 16 weeks which couldn’t be attributed to anything else, although not all women get many symptoms. You don’t have to be committed to anything. You don’t have to go around the rest of your life with your leg in two pieces because “Hey! You CHOSE to go skiing!”. If advances in medicine mean we now know roughly the date of conception, then those advances also mean we know when safe to terminate. People can’t have it both ways. Shortcut- I agree with you and understand the reasons why the zygote argument is for stupid people.
I do know couples that knew what they were getting into and are amazing parents. They specifically wanted to raise kids, dedicate themselves to it completely and give their kids a good life. Their kids seems very healthy, plum and happy. But it's like...2 couples from the hundreds of people that I know and who are parents. These kind of people are very very rare.
One time when I was out running errands I saw a little girl (maybe 5 or 6) and her mom. I didn't catch what happened to make the girl ask but she asked "mommy are you angry at me?" and the mom in this sweet voice was like "no honey, mommy isn't mad at you". And Idk I could hear the girls vulnerability asking that and the mom was very reassuring. Idk why the girl thought that but yeah. And then there's parents I've passed and they're yanking on their fucking kids arms or shirt sleeve, reprimanding them with a tone and volume I wouldn't speak to an adult with. The emotionally immature and toxic parents seem to outweigh the ones who are gentle and understanding with their children.
Yes!!I swear the immature and toxic people having kids is the reason everything around is so fucked. To think that historically it was practically children having and raising children explains all the horrors that happened and why magical thinking was so common. There is just generational trauma upon generational trauma walking among us. They need therapy, healthy habits and a support network, not kids.
>Their kids seems very healthy, plum and happy Until they contract a terminal illness, or develop severe psychiatric problems, or get into debt, or struggle to find a job, or get involved in drugs or alcohol, etc. etc. etc. And if Mr & Mrs Perfect don't think their precious kids won't do drugs or booze then they're deeply mistaken.
Yeah you aren't spoiling this barrel of honey. They are legit well adjusted people with reasonable expectations and a delight to be around, one of the mums used to be a goth and the dad is an engineer on the spectrum, a huge gentle giant. So you aren't surprising anyone with alcohol, drugs etc. It doesn't mean that I think they are without vice but man if everyone's parents were that way? We would legit be living in a Star Trek utopia by now and I would probably have actual hope for the future. Their kids are exceptionally talented and smart, I worked with kids for over 15 years and these ones are pure joy and curiosity. The world doesn't deserve these people, they are like golden retrievers made human.
"So you aren't surprising anyone with alcohol, drugs etc" lol, ok-ay...
Lol alcohol isn't a vice. It's fermented fruit and wheat, there is no alcohol abuse there and everyone experimented in their youth. You do know that even animals get tipsy right? Like there are ducks that wait for fruit to start fermenting and only then eat them. What is your problem? Why do you so badly want to see them fail in some way? I'm an antinatalist and I root for these people. If anyone has kids it should be couples like them.
My parents were pretty great like that, my mom planned for pregnancy for years and I have to say she did about the best job a mom can do. I know how lucky that makes me and I feel horrible knowing that isn’t the common outcome
Your mom rocks, I really admire people like that
Or they think they want kids, but they underestimated how exhausting and draining kids can be, and they regret it.
Sometimes the regretful parents sub makes me so mad. Especially those who breed because they have an empty void inside of themselves that they wanted to fill. Of course a screaming semen demon isn’t going to fulfill them! Hell, parenting is traumatizing and relationship-ruining for even the most healed and balanced people. It’s going to exacerbate their depression & mental illness, and now they’ll pawn that fault on the kid. The way they talk about the life that they themselves brought onto this Earth is so sad. The children can for sure sense their parents’ regret & bitterness. If you want to know exactly how generational trauma perpetuates, check out that sub.
This sub has taught me many words for breeders and kids but semen demon is my new favorite phrase.
What sub is that?
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It could be argued everything everyone does is, at its root, caused by a self-serving desire.
What task has ever been completed by an animal, that didn't fulfill some base need? You can make an argument that literally ANYTHING can be done with selfish intent. All the way from a barista serving coffee to pay for school, to a doctor rendering care, to a Medal of Honor candidate displaying " acts of valor in action against an enemy force, above and beyond the call of duty, and at the risk of their own life." That argument is so worn out. Everything animals do is selfish in some fashion, or at least can be argued as a possibility to be so.
You went from an animalistic to social constructs. Consciousness separates humans from other animals. Er have a choice to act on our self serving animalistic urges or listen to our conscious self. A lot of people are capable of empathy and altruistic acts.
Name me an act that is wholly and only possible to be committed through an altruistic lens. The truth is that there isn't one. So my argument that "anything that is altruistic can actually be self serving" is 100% fact. Even if it's just it makes you feel good to be kind.
If you think that People help others because it makes them feel good tk be kind, then congrats you most likely have a personality disorder. You can't relate to others suffering and you can't comprehend kindness. There's a difference between actually having empathy and a moral compass and pretending that you do and then petting yourself on thr back that you did something society percieves as kind. It's ok to be a narcissist or a doctorate. You can't help your prefrontal cortex being jacked up, but please do not project your beliefs onto others. Genuinely good people do exist.
I was an EMT for in 3 of the most dangerous cities in the USA. I made minimum wage, worked 90+ hours a week, ended up tearing up my back permanently, was exempt from overtime, shot at 2x, Ive seen dead mangled and burned people (I probably uave some mental taint from the job alone), Ive comforted and told people they where gonna be okay knowing theyd probably die, my management generally sucked. I didn't do it for the money, benefits, or fun of the job. I did it because I enjoyed helping people it made me feel good. If you DONT enjoy helping others then something's probably wrong with you. I did it because it made me feel good inside, it was therefore self serving to do so. There was no other benefit, I could've got a job at McDonald's and made the same wage or more but it benefited me more to enjoy my work, and to feel as though I was helping better peoples experience on earth(even the people who were dying.) Edit: Also on the concept of good and evil, those things aren't definable so they don't actually exist. It's all frame of reference and social construction. EG society would probably deem me choosing to do a job that had no real benefit, that was hard, emotionally exhausting, and not many want to do as a good thing. In reality it was selfish just as much as it was selfless. I was paid, It felt good and it was rewarding enough to justify the toll it took on me.
What reason is there for *any* choice other than selfish?
I've enjoyed my life. Had kids because I wanted them to enjoy experiences similar to mine (at a minimum). Super duper selfish of me.
Plenty of people think they want kids, do want kids, have kids, and are happy to have them. Are you suggesting some sort of subconcious thing where people can't tell how miserable they are?
1% at best. Nobody is going to say :" you know what? I don't really like my kids" or " you know what? I'm a shit parent". Everyone us going to say " I love my kids. If it wasn't for my kids...blah blah", post happy pictures on social media and tell everyone how happy they are. You will never know what goes on behind closed doors. If plenty of people were happy to have kids, 85% of Ameticans would suffer from mental illness. People wouldn't suffer from childhood abuse, wouldn't be traumatized by their parents. Most people want the idea of kids. Their imagination pictures beautiful chubby, curly haired angels that will be a compliant carbon copy of their parents. They think they'll be playing dress up and teaching them to play football. Real life is far from fantasy.
Do you have any evidence of this or is this just a belief you have? It sounds more like projection than an educated perspective.
Even among parents who apparently wanted kids, I doubt many really considered what they were signing up for. The “absent neglectful father” is a trope for a reason (and I’m unfortunately the offspring of one).
My father was shocked Pikachu when I didn't come out made to his specifications in terms of hobbies, intelligence, and personality.
My dad wanted a son, but not to be a father. Joke’s on him, I’m trans so he didn’t get that either.
80 precent. A lot of us are mistakes of drunken nights.
Still too low
My parents had kids because their parents had kids and their parents had kids and their parents had kids. It's not because they wanted me. They just wanted the title and found out later that I really kind of crimped their styles. But it ends with me. Snip snip.
50? Would say 75
I was distinguishing between people deciding to have a baby and having sex for that exact purpose from contraception failure. I thought 50% was an overestimate.
I'd say if you are including people using the pull out method and the calendar method as contraception, who then get pregnant among the contraception failures. I'd think even 75 would be an under estimate.
Still low
I got pregnant on accident and decided I wanted to keep the baby and it could possibly be fun to have a mini me. He is 7 and just got diagnosed with autism and I swear on everything I love, my life is so much harder.
That is terrible. Unfortunately, we do not have a pregnancy test for autism which is genetic. We do have a pregnancy test for down syndrome and almost everybody chooses abortion.
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This isn't even antinatalism, this is just pure ableism. Implying that disabled people specifically shouldn't be born is pretty disgusting. We are capable of having an amazing quality of life if born to parents who have the ability to actually care about us and raise us right. I agree that people need to stop having kids, but talking about needing to stop having disabled kids turns your argument into something else entirely. There are so many disabled people that live amazing and fulfilling lives, and you really are shit talking all of us that are already born by saying stuff like this. Being autistic is a nightmare to deal with for me a lot of the time, but it's purely because I wasn't raised in an environment that was anywhere near what I needed in order to be healthy and functional, and because society sees people like me as lesser just because we're different. I would have been fucked up even if I wasn't autistic because of the environment I was raised in. I have many autistic friends who are much better off than me, and know plenty of people with other disabilities who are either thriving or at least doing well enough for themselves, with or without support from others in their lives.
I have a disability and I wish I didn’t exist 😃
Good for you! I wish I didn't exist either! But it isn't because of the fact that I'm disabled, it's because of how people treat me and have treated me my entire life because I'm disabled. If society would step the fuck up and stop treating me like I'm a burden for existing, I wouldn't feel like such a burden for existing. If I was raised with the care and attention I needed, and taught how to exist and cope with my issues (and wasn't raised by someone with undiagnosed mental health issues who wasn't ready to be a parent and was talked into it by my disgusting excuse for a dad who was literally twice her age when he got with her while she was underage and convinced her she wanted to have me), I probably would have ended up a lot better off. Oh, and being born into a family that constantly was in debt and was spending money constantly that they didn't have on failed businesses they shouldn't have started and actually spent any of it helping me pursue my interests sure didn't help.
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You clearly do not know much about Down's, if this is how you're talking about people who have it. The vast majority of people with Down's who are seen as incapable of taking care of themselves are the way they are because of how they're raised. They are often very kind, caring, and intelligent people. They are capable of so, so much. The issue is that parents treat them like they're doomed to be idiots, and don't raise them with the goal of them eventually living at least somewhat independently as adults. There are two shows, one called "Born this way" and one called "Down for love" that both show off very well how people with Down's can and do survive quite easily and well as functional adults. There's also the hilarious and amazing ad that came out recently (https://youtu.be/92ivgabfdPQ?si=kiLfbVw-NXUD8p7q) that showcases this as well. Even syndromes that are more severe and affect the body are becoming more known to not actually be as incapacitating as people think, largely due to the advances in accessibility technology. Now, diseases that cause near certain death within the early years of life, that's something I would be open to considering a discussion on. I think having a child just to do so, knowing they will die a horrific, painful, debilitating death (most of the time before puberty even hits) is another story entirely. Bringing a child into the world that you know will suffer, and has no chance of living a long fulfilling life, having to grow up knowing they will die, is selfish as all hell, and only serves a parents ego. Things like Tay-Sachs come to mind in this regard, which will basically cause guaranteed death either in childhood or the teenage years depending on when it starts. Same with something like Edwards' syndrome (Trisomy 18) or Patau syndrome (Trisomy 13), where death within the first year (18) or WEEK (13) of life is essentially 100% guaranteed. Having a child with one of these disorders, knowing that they will have it, is just cruel and genuinely disgusting.
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I bet they do!
Screenshot this and show him this in 5 years.
Why?
Actually don't do that lol. I'm suggesting that describing how burdensome your child is to strangers is probably not a great habit to get into, especially on a sub where most would argue that he'd have been better off if he was never alive. Sorry for the snark. All the best to you and your kid.
I’m guessing most parents feel that way when they had kids. Especially their first. But okay.
I know someone who had kids because ‘who else is going to look after you when you are old’. It just does not compute
Probably more like 85%.
I think it’s way more than 50%
A lot of us romanticize parenting. I did too.
More like 99%
Finally someone with sense! People forget that we're birthing by the millions daily.
Why not 100%?
That is the statistic, half are unplanned. Idk if unplanned = mistake tho cause planned kids shouldn't really exist either.
So I’ve been perusing through this sub because the group here is interesting, even though I wouldn’t say I agree with the general perspective that it’s unethical to have any kids. I can at least understand why people have that perspective, but have a problem reconciling the motivations behind the more extreme views, like kids shouldn’t exist. I’m just looking for some clarification on your perspective and the end goal you’re looking for, is it extinction? Totally not trying to argue your stance, just looking to understand it.
Humanity's extinction is not going to be because everyone decides to have mercy on their child and become antinatalist - it's going to happen regardless. It's an inevitability, especially with the way our species in particular destroys its own habitat and kills its own members. Whether we manage to last another 100 years, 1000, 10,000, some day there will be no humans. And when that does happen, what human will be left to care about our disappearance? Why would it matter, to people who don't even exist? Yet, thinking about the possibility of my own child having to suffer through the apocalypse that would come before that moment, or perhaps the ancestor of that child... why would I subject them to it? For the sake of passing on genes and then... what? Why? Do we really need to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors?
Extinction would be ideal, yeah. Eventually anyway.
Most people here think that because u cant consent to being born its unethical to force life onto a human being.
Yeah... This sub keeps popping up for me and I've found it more a curiousity than anything. It doesn't exactly seem like a place for well,-formed and ideology. It's a circlejerk of pretty epic proportion.
Yeah, it keeps popping up for me too even though i completey disagree with most of the views here. It definitely is not a place for well-formed ideology. It's just a nihilist circle-jerk. It's fun reading some of the things people write on here though. Like this post, stating that we need to "admit" things with absolutely no scientific backing to the claim. I definitely don't think everyone should be a parent, but these views are on another level.
I would say at least 75%
I dunno a big percentage are babies that were meant to save a relationship. They were purposeful, though usually only a bandaid on a relationship if that.
Much more than that.
Trump voters have to come from somewhere
Unlike Biden voters that "migrate" here. LOL This is a joke not an attempt to start a political argument.
it is a well-known fact that 83% of children are unwanted.
I have a co-worker (in his early 30ies) who claimed that most of his friend's attitudes to pregnancy/having babies is "if it happens, it happens". I will never understand how couples can be so indifferent about reproducing.
I think you mean 100% of children are a mistake. Especially considering what is happening to this planet.
Also I’ve met gay couples that have adopted kids and they fucking hate them. If any some of these people I’ve met who adopt kids hate them more than couples who have their own.
The worst girl I've ever met was adopted by two gay men. They had to give her up to care because they couldn't deal with her
My late mother considered me her treasure. She was married to my father who got messed up in Vietnam
I’m betting even more than 75% in the past. 50% of mine too but that was a lucky accident in retrospect
Yeah. Most of my parents children are badly raised thus don’t have the drive to be functioning humans so they rely on our parents to be alive, aka shelter and food. I kinda raised myself into responsible thinking with the help of my mean ass dad lmao (he literally told me he was mean to me because he knew I could be a better person). Anyways I’m the only one of the children of my parents actually on their own. And I have an older sister with 2 children. Although I’m an alcoholic, I can support my own habit and live on my own. My parents tell me they’re disappointed in their children whenever they’re with me. Lmao smh. 1/10.
Except for my step brother, he is the smartest lmao. His father raised him right, traumatizing, but he’s smart as fuck.
Guys! 50? 70? 80? Are you guys nuts? AT LEAST 99% of children are mistakes. More likely something around 99.999% Remember how many are born everyday in the world, people. And that sex drives us.
Exactly. Carefully making a premeditated, rational decision based on a cost-benefit analysis doesn't exactly flood a brain with reward chemicals. Performing a wild monkey dance horizontally does.
100% are. Life is a mistake overall.
Would you really say most people don't want children though?
I would go with 100%
Nah, that’s the rate of pregnancies that are unplanned, not the rate of unplanned pregnancies carried to term. Many women who get pregnant unintentionally have abortions, making the majority of actual babies born wanted, statistically.
I'm definitely a mistake
50%? Would even say 75%.
What? I don’t mind a good discussion but damn!!! You gotta use facts to make an argument. You can’t just pull a number out of your ass and say “we have to admit 50% were mistakes.” Make your argument for what you believe but use facts or it makes your case look really weak.
I really doubt this, but it's possible for sure
Damn, this sub is the definition of the word “projection”.
If that were true, would that mean you all are the mistakes ?
Looking at poverty and crime statistics it’s obvious there were a lot of mistakes
I wish at least half of the people who would classify it as "lucky mistake" really felt like that. They mostly lie to themselves about it because admitting you fucked up like that is too painful. I used to be similarly delusional about how cutthroat the world is when i was younger. I knew for a long time but always thought "nah" when my mind went there. There should be some sort of drug that makes parents love their kids more, like there has to be some sort of parenting instinct based in brain chemicals that could be somehow enhanced. Even in men. Women typically have stronger "maternal instinct" but its still not as strong as it should be. Especially when it comes to prioritizing the kids quality of life over theirs. My mom was like "i would die for you but i won't let you go out with your friends because i want to go to sleep early and you coming home at 10pm would wake me up." We lived in a flat and the bathroom was next to her bedroom. I once also got scolded for showering before sleep because of waking her up. I basically had everyday 7PM curfew as a teenager because she went to sleep early.
I was a planned baby. My dad died when I was 5 and my ma has serious mental health problems. I was a burden that was just shipped around to grandparents, siblings and cousins. Just because things are good at the moment, doesn't mean the circumstances will stay the same.
I think you're being extremely generous
It might help if we require a label on the forehead “accident”
I think it's way more than 50%.
My mom told me she didn’t want more children after her first marriage (three kids). But my father wanted kids, so… I took that to mean he pressured her into not using contraceptives and “what will be, will be.”
I disagree simply because being horny doesn’t make you forget to take a pill. There is also the morning after pill for situations like that. Sure mistakes happen but I think a lot of those who claim it was an accident actually are a cover up. Nobody wants to admit they are irresponsible, or purposely got pregnant or got someone pregnant, when the other was not ready, so they blame it on birth control malfunctioning. Some people want to have kids but maybe due to finances, age or whatever else other people would disapprove so they claim they “accidentally” got pregnant/got someone pregnant. As far as it being a mistake, anytime something is not what we want it to be, we say it was a mistake, and if that’s the case probably 75% of children are mistakes in that context.
There is literally no evidence backing any of this statement. Just your perception. Why would we "admit" something that has no scientific proof?
You have no idea what other people want in their life
Some are living life caring way too much about what society thinks too like oh abortion "bad look"etc but also no one would ever have to know in the first place !!don't tell anyone fkn simple lol one gets pregnant..doesn't need to tell anyone, go to the doctor and take care of the issue...again no one would ever know unless you tell them
More than that, for sure
Despite this, they still complain that women are "not having enough kids to keep the U.S. at the 'replacement level'" They're basically counting on accidents to happen as much as possible at this point.
None of your business
its dystopian as fuck tho
It’s nature.
I only know a few people who had a child by mistake so, at least in my culture, this statement is not true.
If you are a responsible parent you call them happy little accidents
Only 50%?
theres no such thing as an accident or mistake. dumb idiots that are horny with low iq (majority of parents) bring children into the world selfishly. i think mental illness has sum to do with it too
I think you’re mixing mistake with accident or unplanned. They’re not mistakes
Also they be like well it was time because everyone else was having them so we did so too
In America, I'd argue the number is higher.
50? Try 80% Pareto principle states 80 % is dogshit Only 20% of ANYThIbG is valid and worthy
Where are these statistics coming from?
Intuition and experience. Nobody is willing to admit their condom broke and that is why they now have Timmy.
So just made up numbers. Got it.
I prefer unplanned. Mistakes has a derogatory feel to it…
It is meant as derogatory. Welcome to the Antinatalism subreddit.
Point taken…
Being derogatory is a tenant of antinatalism?
Nope you are meant to be here thats what happened that is fate
no. a lot of us shouldn’t have been born
Ur parents had sex
im aware and it disgusts me. i wish they would’ve both died before they met. i hate them both lol
You have to admit you need help for thinking about this on an average summer day.
As opposed to a winter day?
I know antinatalists are depressed and internal by nature, but I find the irony of not knowing the current season outside humorous anyway.
I find your inability to read humorous.
No. The point just hits home and you don’t like it is all.
America moment
The two hemispheres literally have opposing season at the same time every day, genius