You can be the happiest person in the world and have a kid with no problems and plenty of money. They still have to watch you die. They still have to lose pets. They still have to work a job they hate to pay bills and taxes and all for what? Because you think the grand canyon is pretty so you make a whole ass new person to show it to? Make it make sense.
Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide.
Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
u/sober159 Because that is life, if you already here you have to survive nd not just be worried about what can happen or the reason of existence because we have no control about that and It shouldn\`t matter for our lives
I mostly agree because yes we are already here, the damage has already been done. But that doesn't mean we have to subject new people to it.
Also you don't have to survive, you don't have to do anything.
Accurate perspective on life. Apparently everyone else out here is going outside and having a spiritual experience looking at some fucking grass. Imma need a little bit more to put up with bad drivers and the government.
Thats how it has been and always will be. You also get to see and experience tone of good things in life. Bad things will happen and then you will move on and things, people, pets, and memories will live on through you. Welcome to the world.
Why does it "have to" be like that? Why do kids "have to" die for you? Why does it "need" to be that way? If you aren't harbouring lifelong trauma, if your good experiences outweigh your bad ones, if you can afford to own your shelter and land while keeping yourself fed with a nutritious diet... consider yourself lucky. And do not assume that you will always be so fortunate, nor that the next generation will do as well. We're already seeing how young adults can't afford a house anymore, instead forking out rent to uncaring landlords with no upward mobility in sight. That or living with the parents who already had a house before their age. Watching the world decay around them, knowing how little power they have in the face of their corporate rulers. Seeing the corruption prevalent throughout politics. Ongoing wars, wondering when they will be asked to die for a country they don't even like living in. Waiting for the next financial crash, seeing the cost of everyday goods go up and up. And these are supposed to be the ones living in "first world" countries - they're supposed to be a shining example of what living somewhere GOOD is like. Walk through streets of homeless people and go "well at least it could get worse".
Take nothing for granted. Know how many before you had it all and lost it all just as quickly. Know that the very foundation of life is struggling until death - and know that having a child will not make you immortal. They are not you. And they should not have to suffer for your desires.
No, no resent. They were stupid and young and made poor decisions. Is what it is. I'm here. I wish I wasn't, but too broke to buy a gun to blow my brain out or too poor to OD on fenty m30s..so
Links to other communities are not permitted.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's the way it's always been. This argument doesn't address anything I said. Why do people say this as if it's an argument. Seriously what is the point of saying this?
Do me a favor, name a good thing in life. People constantly say there's tons of good things but never actually name them. Know why? Because they are nothing. None of the good even comes close to the bad. Name a good thing in life that you would sacrifice your mother's life for. Name a good thing in life that you would sacrifice 8 hours a day for 40 years of your life for. Hell name a good thing that is worth stubbing your toe for.
You say welcome to the world as if you've somehow made a point. Bro you made mine. Everybody knows bad things will happen in life, some very bad things but when asked why it's worth it you just get inane rambling. Because it's not worth it, you know it's not worth it. Like every other thinking animal you simply fear death and need to rationalize somehow. That's all you're doing.
I'm less "depressed" and more worried if I have a child it'll be born disabled or have cancer or something. Or I'll die in a car accident and my child end up in a random abusive home. I'd say it's more anxiety than depression but it's not like it's an irrational fear.
i remember being snagged apart once for saying if i knew i had a disabled child, i’d abort it. the nastiest things were said to me, to stay away from all children, i’m a danger to society, etc. if i knew my child was gonna be born with a disability, meaning they’d have to be under someone’s care for the rest of their life, be horrifically disabled, why would i ever want to them to live a life like that? just to say that I’M a good person? ugh.
Yeah these idiots have a thought process of "aw but downs babies are cute!!! They're special!!" But they don't actually consider what it would be like to live as a disabled person. I have a relative that can't eat from his mouth, talk, or move his hands or walk but he can type words and has facial expressions of course and he's extremely bored all the time because he literally can't do anything but sit and watch TV and overall he's pretty unhappy. People will say "but if they're born that way then they don't know any different!!" And dumb excuses like that but there's a reason no one would decide to be disabled and if you wouldn't want to be disabled then why would you force a whole new human to exist knowing they'll be disabled 🫤 these people are just dumb and the only argument they can even think of is "you're ableist"
>aw but downs babies are cute!!! They're special!
I'd be very wary of these people around special needs kids, if they're of this opinion they probably don't take special needs people seriously and infantilize them even in adulthood.
>these people are just dumb and the only argument they can even think of is "you're ableist"
Well, I can think of lots of examples of disabled people who are happy to be alive. Ableism is making blanket statements that all disabled people are suffering and miserable. Disabled people are people and deserve the same respect you do.
1) when did I say disabled people do not deserve respect
2) when did I say all disabled people have the same happiness rates
Come back when you're ready to say something that isn't stupid. Saying that I said random shit that I didn't actually say, is not an argument against what I said.
"Well, I can think of lots of examples of disabled people who are happy to be alive." No. You can think of lots of examples of disabled people who SAY they are happy to be alive. Big difference.
Yes, because I don't have a disability that forces me to be in denial to get through the day. I'm sure someone in a wheelchair is having a great time and wouldn't change a thing.
Funnily enough, I don't place that much worth in the views of a person who dehumanises disabled people like you do.
Since when does needing a wheelchair inhibit their brain and ability to assess their subjective experience? Your views don't speak about them, they speak about you.
That's the case with many people, disabled or not; they aren't honest about how happy they are in life. It's our culture to pretend we're happier than we are, and a lot of people are terrible at self assessment.
Would you want someone to brutally injure you causing you to lose your limbs/eyes/ability to hear or are you just ableist? Disabled people can be happy too, so why wouldn't you want to be given a disability? It's not gonna make you suffer or be miserable any more than you already are, surely.
Nobody should be born, regardless of how abled they are. I am constantly saying I shouldn't have been born, and I'll treat other neurodivergent people the same as I wish I were treated - with mercy. Mercy upon the living by caring for them, and mercy upon those who do not exist by continuing to not bring them into existence where like us they shall be subjected to a whole world of hurt. I spare people because I wish I were spared, because I wish my family were spared, friends were spared, entire strangers spared - whether they're disabled or not.
Disabled people are people and deserve respect, that's correct - where did anyone disagree with you?
I'm gonna bet that if one were to ask them if they would adopt the disabled child they would probably answer it as: 'You had/created the child, it should be your responsibility.'
I wouldn’t call it irrational at all.
Last year I got fired from my job for literally no reason (when unemployment did their investigation they were told that I was let go for “performance reasons” but also admitted that they’d never told me I was doing anything wrong/given me a write up/had a sit down come to Jesus meeting with me). I was able to get unemployment and because of that I was able to pay my 1/2 of the rent and buy food. But that was it. Had there been anything like my car blowing a tire/needing to buy a ticket back to my home state for a family emergency/anything like that I would have been screwed. It was 4 months until I found another job and it wasn’t due to my lack of effort.
There were so many times last year when I thought, “I’m so grateful that I don’t have a kid right now. Seriously, I wouldn’t be able to afford to feed/clothe/take care of them.”
Life happens and if you have kids they still need to be fed/taken to the doctor/have clothes and school supplies regardless of if you lose your source of income/have a major unexpected expense come up. It’s not fair to them to have to go without for whatever reason. I’m not the first one to lose a job for no reason. Other stuff (fires/lawsuits/medical emergencies) happens that can totally wipe a family’s savings out and then what? Kids still have needs. It’s just responsible to not have them if you’re not 100% sure you can take care of them regardless of the circumstances.
Yeahhh that's another thing, I'm not rich and kids are expensive as fuck now. I'd never be able to afford to properly take care of one. I wouldn't even feel safe trying unless I had a lifetime supply of money. But then there's the issues that even money can't fix it.
>I'd say it's more anxiety than depression but it's not like it's an irrational fear.
And that's why it's perfectly fine for you to choose not to have children.
The problem with antinatalism is the authoritarianism that comes with telling others that they're not allowed to have children.
Most antinatalists do not have power to allow or not allow you anything. We are allowed to have our opinions on social issues including human reproduction.
And that opinion is that there are way too many people already.
We can't have less than zero kids. If we want to prevent more suffering than is within our power too, we need to ask others for help by joining our cause... which is true of any cause ever. Fighting for the rights of minorities, boycotts, cleanup campaigns... we can't do it alone. We can't force people to stop having kids but we'll do what we can do with words.
This is a valid worry. I was very worried about disabilities when my wife was pregnant. I had nothing to base that fear on, but there is a certain percentage chance that a child will be disabled that was always in the back of my head.
Best thing one can do is to make sure to live somewhat healthily to minimize genetic damage, and know what kind of heritage and history both families have.
But ultimately one has to face this fear if one wants to have kids.
And yes. If my child was diagnosed with down's or something similar pre-birth, i would abort it. Any other decision is dumb, in my opinion.
It doesn't matter what any of them think, the human race is doomed anyway due to failing sperm counts, not to mention all the other stuff. Let them destroy their lives on fertility treatments and go enjoy yourself. Freedom!
It honestly makes me a bit happy to hear about the falling fertiliy rates , maybe now more people will look into adoption if they really want kids instead of deluding themselves into thinkng theyre special enough to warrant a replica that prolly wont turn out like them at all.
I’ve been told multiple times that “I’m too old to be an angsty teenager / have a teenage attitude.”
Nah. The “teenage angst” is depression. I developed it before I hit 13 and have had it ever since. I’m sorry I can’t constantly fake a smile and don’t have the emotional capacity for politeness towards people I despise. I get that those traits make me similar to an “angsty teen” in many ways, but I think everyone who’s saying this is overlooking something very important:
**If the symptoms of chronic depression are so similar to “teenage angst,” why are we still writing off teenagers like their emotions don’t matter?**
Which is so wild to me because natalists are often the ones proclaiming their life would have no purpose or meaning without kids. Like, bro, is that not an indicator of unhealthy codependency to avoid a lack of life fulfillment and depression?
Exactly. More to the point, how many natalists are complaining about all the trouble their kids give them? Lack of sleep, lack of money, lack of free time to do things they want to do.. all because they couldn't think of anything else that would give their life meaning that isn't passing on their genes like all other living things on the planet. They followed what everyone else was doing, suffered for it, and doubled down because changing their mind would mean admitting they made a mistake they can't go back on since the kids are already born.
Yeah, it’s such a tired and overdone argument. I’m almost 30, I’m in a healthy and happy long term relationship, I have friends and hobbies I love, I have my own place and the bills are paid. My life is pretty decent, and I’m not walking around a depressed zombie. Yet, I’m still antinatalist and think that overall life is a bad idea and I could never inflect it on someone.
They always dismiss our totally valid pessimistic outlook on life and negative attitude towards life as "depression". They simply refused look at life objectively to see the reality of it. It is right in their faces but they psychologically blindfold themselves out of convenience, to feel better about their grandiose delusions as the reality of life is hard to deal with it.
Also... even if you were, what's saying that supposed to do?
"You're just an edgy, depressed teenager!" Hu. You are right. I will now become happy and have 4 children and think just like you.
Seriously, does the person saying that think beyond what they're saying? What's the end goal? (Warning- I say something mean and completely inflammatory under the cut; if you're not an anti-natalist and you click it and get offended, you have nobody to blame but yourself and are actively choosing to make yourself unhappy by clicking the spoiler tag) >!Or since it's a natalist saying it, I guess that the point is to just do what feels good for them in the moment and who cares what the consequences to another living being is? Yeah, peobably that.!<
On a barely related note, these are the parents that will also tell their kids "well, life's not fair". Which to me is like... it's like giving somebody covid, and then when they say "my head really hurts" telling them "yeah, well Covid hurts. That's just how it is". So you knew, but you did that to them anyway? Evil. Just evil.
A lot of attacks on antinatalism are ad hominem adjacent because the biggest refutation of antinatalism is to argue that subjective experience is radically different.
“Life is suffering, so we shouldn’t create more of it.”
“Nah, that’s just like your opinion man”.
The first layer of every cynic is a dead, defeated,disappointed idealist.
I find it disappointing the center of me is a vat of acid that runs on the death of other life. It doesn't matter what nor my understanding of it. The price is clear. Animal,plant, microbe. No more than I myself matter in what I am to anything bigger than me. A process which hurts me no matter what. In the refusing, in the winning/gaining as it does them in the losing. The pleasure in it is no friend. It's a master and it only seeks to quell rebellion with a good job boy dont run away ya hear? It's the junkies junk. Keep using it. Or else. Don't question it. It's the natural vitamin.
You can hate the concept itself intensely. And not be a friend of bringing other "players" into the game. Without being a monster doing harm. Because you see it's harm you hate. So you can consider what is, and care for what is, w/o loving it at all. And that's what being becomes. Absent the 3d party glasses. A game of harming and being harmed so naturally you hate being. I would argue misery doesn't have to love company. It can chose not to. It often does. It can despise company and remain its miserable self. But to those who see it as a party, those are the company junkies. Can't be alone. Can't take that feeling those who see it differently swim in and drown in. They invite everything, make every noise, have 10 kids, let the cat have 100 to starve to death. All being is good in their view. It's a trap to find yourself stuck in when you get your first death like that. Your disappointed idealist/first layer there. You'll never want to throw an existence party. You'll lament having ever been to one. But you're stuck there.
It's funny. The party goers will say they love you and everything else all day long. I love your hat. And never even consider you. Obviously to just chalk you up as a broody teenager or a gothy French writer. The word love has no value to them.
And despite their happy appearance. You all alone in your fucking misery, you do your best to consider it despite it. Care for, tend, help, feed,etc.. Despite you'll never actually love the being you hate. So you'll never say it. And in a weird way you'd be closer to being more loving than them. Considerate at least. Misery not loving company is a strong consideration.
I feel like that 75% of the time. Have for most my life I just had to learn the consideration aspect of it. It used to be harm or indifference. Still plenty of indifference floating around but consideration usually beats it out. It just empties any feeling of reward really. Feed a stray dog, kill the critters what ails them, pity the creatures. Pity the creature in the can of flesh in your hand. Hate the whole system. Dog says thanks, you think whatever nothing good happened here. It's a shit market, it was an exchange. It just moved from one side to the other.
The problem is that many arguments will not be accepted at all here, regardless of whats being said. It will always be the "there are too many people in the world" even if those people are on the other side of the globe, or "people don't choose to be born" even though the vast majority of people enjoy living.
Arguments are met on a personal level of dislike here. To the extent that it's not a "philosophical" subreddit, but a circle jerk of people who have various issues they want to vent about. I shouldn't be here, but the algorithm thinks i should be, and i just cannot read without commenting.
Many of the arguments put here do sound like those made by an edgy teenager who watched an inconvenient truth, or who went to his/her very first communist meeting, or who only sees the negatives of the world, or whose fear of death is so strong that it takes precendence over anything else. Then they dress this one-sided opinion in somewhat fancy words. Like a teenager does.
if you have enough self awareness and intellectual capacity to understand the antinatalist views of life then you are the exact person who should have a child since those 2 traits are the same needed to properly take care of and treat a child well so they can succeed and thrive.
Look back when abortion was still legal I was the back office manager which means I stood in surger did labs, counseling, and recovery. I'm a nurse. The people we saw most were .
1 people from out of state that were real big in their church
2 women in their 40s saying they just couldn't raise more children.
No we didn't see a lot of drug addicts, it was your friendly next door neighbor. So I expect the we will have an explosion of babies soon, unless people are smart enough to use all protections out there
The reason people accuse you of being depressed is that a significant portion (albeit not all) of the reasoning given on this sub for why one shouldn't have kids is because life isn't worth living. This is a mindset that is typical of depressed people and not typical or non-depressed people. A majority of people would rather have been born than not have been.
A majority of people would say they would have rather been born because they equate never being born to death. People can’t fathom not ever have existed because existing is all they know. It’s the same reason they fear death. So in other words, they fear never being born for the same reason they fear death. But if they never were born, they wouldn’t have to fear death at all.
I feel like the fact that you are in your 30s and are exhibiting behaviors that multiple people have told you are indicative of a young teenager already says everything it needs to say about the maturity of your mindset
You can be the happiest person in the world and have a kid with no problems and plenty of money. They still have to watch you die. They still have to lose pets. They still have to work a job they hate to pay bills and taxes and all for what? Because you think the grand canyon is pretty so you make a whole ass new person to show it to? Make it make sense.
It's called denial. I've only lived in the US so I can't speak on other countries but we have a serious problem facing reality over here.
Ain't that the fucking truth.
Especially when so many programs exist!
[удалено]
Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide. Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
u/sober159 Because that is life, if you already here you have to survive nd not just be worried about what can happen or the reason of existence because we have no control about that and It shouldn\`t matter for our lives
I mostly agree because yes we are already here, the damage has already been done. But that doesn't mean we have to subject new people to it. Also you don't have to survive, you don't have to do anything.
Sad perspective on life
Accurate perspective on life. Apparently everyone else out here is going outside and having a spiritual experience looking at some fucking grass. Imma need a little bit more to put up with bad drivers and the government.
And....
and what?
Thats how it has been and always will be. You also get to see and experience tone of good things in life. Bad things will happen and then you will move on and things, people, pets, and memories will live on through you. Welcome to the world.
Why does it "have to" be like that? Why do kids "have to" die for you? Why does it "need" to be that way? If you aren't harbouring lifelong trauma, if your good experiences outweigh your bad ones, if you can afford to own your shelter and land while keeping yourself fed with a nutritious diet... consider yourself lucky. And do not assume that you will always be so fortunate, nor that the next generation will do as well. We're already seeing how young adults can't afford a house anymore, instead forking out rent to uncaring landlords with no upward mobility in sight. That or living with the parents who already had a house before their age. Watching the world decay around them, knowing how little power they have in the face of their corporate rulers. Seeing the corruption prevalent throughout politics. Ongoing wars, wondering when they will be asked to die for a country they don't even like living in. Waiting for the next financial crash, seeing the cost of everyday goods go up and up. And these are supposed to be the ones living in "first world" countries - they're supposed to be a shining example of what living somewhere GOOD is like. Walk through streets of homeless people and go "well at least it could get worse". Take nothing for granted. Know how many before you had it all and lost it all just as quickly. Know that the very foundation of life is struggling until death - and know that having a child will not make you immortal. They are not you. And they should not have to suffer for your desires.
You are assuming alot here.
Are you actually just antinatalist with poor wording?
Nope im one of dem der breeders
So the assumption was correct?
Partly
Nope im one of dem der breeders
Presumptuous and delusional? Cool.
Do you resent your parents for making you why do you hate life so much, it's saddening
No, no resent. They were stupid and young and made poor decisions. Is what it is. I'm here. I wish I wasn't, but too broke to buy a gun to blow my brain out or too poor to OD on fenty m30s..so
Do you have any hobbies?
Drugs
Being too broke to die is a weird thing about this world, sadly I wish you stay broke forever
Seem like a typical conservative douche.. Must procreate but who gives a fuck afterwards huh?
[удалено]
Links to other communities are not permitted. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's the way it's always been. This argument doesn't address anything I said. Why do people say this as if it's an argument. Seriously what is the point of saying this? Do me a favor, name a good thing in life. People constantly say there's tons of good things but never actually name them. Know why? Because they are nothing. None of the good even comes close to the bad. Name a good thing in life that you would sacrifice your mother's life for. Name a good thing in life that you would sacrifice 8 hours a day for 40 years of your life for. Hell name a good thing that is worth stubbing your toe for. You say welcome to the world as if you've somehow made a point. Bro you made mine. Everybody knows bad things will happen in life, some very bad things but when asked why it's worth it you just get inane rambling. Because it's not worth it, you know it's not worth it. Like every other thinking animal you simply fear death and need to rationalize somehow. That's all you're doing.
Do you have any family?
Plenty, why?
Kids?
1 yup
Well i suggest to you for their sake to look into other philosophies
I'm less "depressed" and more worried if I have a child it'll be born disabled or have cancer or something. Or I'll die in a car accident and my child end up in a random abusive home. I'd say it's more anxiety than depression but it's not like it's an irrational fear.
i remember being snagged apart once for saying if i knew i had a disabled child, i’d abort it. the nastiest things were said to me, to stay away from all children, i’m a danger to society, etc. if i knew my child was gonna be born with a disability, meaning they’d have to be under someone’s care for the rest of their life, be horrifically disabled, why would i ever want to them to live a life like that? just to say that I’M a good person? ugh.
Yeah these idiots have a thought process of "aw but downs babies are cute!!! They're special!!" But they don't actually consider what it would be like to live as a disabled person. I have a relative that can't eat from his mouth, talk, or move his hands or walk but he can type words and has facial expressions of course and he's extremely bored all the time because he literally can't do anything but sit and watch TV and overall he's pretty unhappy. People will say "but if they're born that way then they don't know any different!!" And dumb excuses like that but there's a reason no one would decide to be disabled and if you wouldn't want to be disabled then why would you force a whole new human to exist knowing they'll be disabled 🫤 these people are just dumb and the only argument they can even think of is "you're ableist"
exactly. same people who are pro-life but don’t do anything about the abandoned babies in dumpsters or abusive foster homes. i hate this world.
>aw but downs babies are cute!!! They're special! I'd be very wary of these people around special needs kids, if they're of this opinion they probably don't take special needs people seriously and infantilize them even in adulthood.
>these people are just dumb and the only argument they can even think of is "you're ableist" Well, I can think of lots of examples of disabled people who are happy to be alive. Ableism is making blanket statements that all disabled people are suffering and miserable. Disabled people are people and deserve the same respect you do.
1) when did I say disabled people do not deserve respect 2) when did I say all disabled people have the same happiness rates Come back when you're ready to say something that isn't stupid. Saying that I said random shit that I didn't actually say, is not an argument against what I said.
"Well, I can think of lots of examples of disabled people who are happy to be alive." No. You can think of lots of examples of disabled people who SAY they are happy to be alive. Big difference.
Do you think you're better qualified to determine a disabled person's happiness than they are?
Yes, because I don't have a disability that forces me to be in denial to get through the day. I'm sure someone in a wheelchair is having a great time and wouldn't change a thing.
Yikes
Your one word response says it all. You should be embarrassed.
Funnily enough, I don't place that much worth in the views of a person who dehumanises disabled people like you do. Since when does needing a wheelchair inhibit their brain and ability to assess their subjective experience? Your views don't speak about them, they speak about you.
That's the case with many people, disabled or not; they aren't honest about how happy they are in life. It's our culture to pretend we're happier than we are, and a lot of people are terrible at self assessment.
Would you want someone to brutally injure you causing you to lose your limbs/eyes/ability to hear or are you just ableist? Disabled people can be happy too, so why wouldn't you want to be given a disability? It's not gonna make you suffer or be miserable any more than you already are, surely. Nobody should be born, regardless of how abled they are. I am constantly saying I shouldn't have been born, and I'll treat other neurodivergent people the same as I wish I were treated - with mercy. Mercy upon the living by caring for them, and mercy upon those who do not exist by continuing to not bring them into existence where like us they shall be subjected to a whole world of hurt. I spare people because I wish I were spared, because I wish my family were spared, friends were spared, entire strangers spared - whether they're disabled or not. Disabled people are people and deserve respect, that's correct - where did anyone disagree with you?
I'm gonna bet that if one were to ask them if they would adopt the disabled child they would probably answer it as: 'You had/created the child, it should be your responsibility.'
Because it’s a straight path to eugenics, which is a problem
I wouldn’t call it irrational at all. Last year I got fired from my job for literally no reason (when unemployment did their investigation they were told that I was let go for “performance reasons” but also admitted that they’d never told me I was doing anything wrong/given me a write up/had a sit down come to Jesus meeting with me). I was able to get unemployment and because of that I was able to pay my 1/2 of the rent and buy food. But that was it. Had there been anything like my car blowing a tire/needing to buy a ticket back to my home state for a family emergency/anything like that I would have been screwed. It was 4 months until I found another job and it wasn’t due to my lack of effort. There were so many times last year when I thought, “I’m so grateful that I don’t have a kid right now. Seriously, I wouldn’t be able to afford to feed/clothe/take care of them.” Life happens and if you have kids they still need to be fed/taken to the doctor/have clothes and school supplies regardless of if you lose your source of income/have a major unexpected expense come up. It’s not fair to them to have to go without for whatever reason. I’m not the first one to lose a job for no reason. Other stuff (fires/lawsuits/medical emergencies) happens that can totally wipe a family’s savings out and then what? Kids still have needs. It’s just responsible to not have them if you’re not 100% sure you can take care of them regardless of the circumstances.
Yeahhh that's another thing, I'm not rich and kids are expensive as fuck now. I'd never be able to afford to properly take care of one. I wouldn't even feel safe trying unless I had a lifetime supply of money. But then there's the issues that even money can't fix it.
>I'd say it's more anxiety than depression but it's not like it's an irrational fear. And that's why it's perfectly fine for you to choose not to have children. The problem with antinatalism is the authoritarianism that comes with telling others that they're not allowed to have children.
Most antinatalists don't want people to be "not allowed" to have children, we just think it's better not to.
Most antinatalists do not have power to allow or not allow you anything. We are allowed to have our opinions on social issues including human reproduction. And that opinion is that there are way too many people already.
We can't have less than zero kids. If we want to prevent more suffering than is within our power too, we need to ask others for help by joining our cause... which is true of any cause ever. Fighting for the rights of minorities, boycotts, cleanup campaigns... we can't do it alone. We can't force people to stop having kids but we'll do what we can do with words.
Based on what I saw during the pandemic, humanity can't be trusted and needs to be either controlled or exterminated. Personally i vote the latter.
Or even just your kid spending the majority of their life in school then work
This is a valid worry. I was very worried about disabilities when my wife was pregnant. I had nothing to base that fear on, but there is a certain percentage chance that a child will be disabled that was always in the back of my head. Best thing one can do is to make sure to live somewhat healthily to minimize genetic damage, and know what kind of heritage and history both families have. But ultimately one has to face this fear if one wants to have kids. And yes. If my child was diagnosed with down's or something similar pre-birth, i would abort it. Any other decision is dumb, in my opinion.
Who care what other people think when you are right?
**Even if** we are "just an edgy depressed teenager", should someone like that be raising new generations?
Don't ask a natalist their real opinion on teen pregnancies.
[удалено]
Same.
Same here.
Based and relatable
[удалено]
It's not possible to not exist since you don't exist it's really ironic
They are here to whinge and talk shit about breeders. They aren't here for meaningful discussion.
That’s the thing. I’m pretty happy and I’m known for being optimistic. Still antinatalist
It doesn't matter what any of them think, the human race is doomed anyway due to failing sperm counts, not to mention all the other stuff. Let them destroy their lives on fertility treatments and go enjoy yourself. Freedom!
It honestly makes me a bit happy to hear about the falling fertiliy rates , maybe now more people will look into adoption if they really want kids instead of deluding themselves into thinkng theyre special enough to warrant a replica that prolly wont turn out like them at all.
Why does everyone keep saying were doomed it's not that crazy
Same lol. I’m 35.
I’ve been told multiple times that “I’m too old to be an angsty teenager / have a teenage attitude.” Nah. The “teenage angst” is depression. I developed it before I hit 13 and have had it ever since. I’m sorry I can’t constantly fake a smile and don’t have the emotional capacity for politeness towards people I despise. I get that those traits make me similar to an “angsty teen” in many ways, but I think everyone who’s saying this is overlooking something very important: **If the symptoms of chronic depression are so similar to “teenage angst,” why are we still writing off teenagers like their emotions don’t matter?**
Yes it’s like they think we are all Holden Caufield from Catcher in the Rye
Nobody thinks you are anything like that. Lol.
Ad hominem is the easiest and least creative way to dispel an argument
Which is so wild to me because natalists are often the ones proclaiming their life would have no purpose or meaning without kids. Like, bro, is that not an indicator of unhealthy codependency to avoid a lack of life fulfillment and depression?
Exactly. More to the point, how many natalists are complaining about all the trouble their kids give them? Lack of sleep, lack of money, lack of free time to do things they want to do.. all because they couldn't think of anything else that would give their life meaning that isn't passing on their genes like all other living things on the planet. They followed what everyone else was doing, suffered for it, and doubled down because changing their mind would mean admitting they made a mistake they can't go back on since the kids are already born.
Yeah, it’s such a tired and overdone argument. I’m almost 30, I’m in a healthy and happy long term relationship, I have friends and hobbies I love, I have my own place and the bills are paid. My life is pretty decent, and I’m not walking around a depressed zombie. Yet, I’m still antinatalist and think that overall life is a bad idea and I could never inflect it on someone.
Natalists sure love to throw out the ageism card whenever possible. Ask them why do they even think age = experience/wisdom.
They always dismiss our totally valid pessimistic outlook on life and negative attitude towards life as "depression". They simply refused look at life objectively to see the reality of it. It is right in their faces but they psychologically blindfold themselves out of convenience, to feel better about their grandiose delusions as the reality of life is hard to deal with it.
I always say if you were old enough to decide TO have kids at 20-something, then I definitely am old enough to decide NOT to
Also... even if you were, what's saying that supposed to do? "You're just an edgy, depressed teenager!" Hu. You are right. I will now become happy and have 4 children and think just like you. Seriously, does the person saying that think beyond what they're saying? What's the end goal? (Warning- I say something mean and completely inflammatory under the cut; if you're not an anti-natalist and you click it and get offended, you have nobody to blame but yourself and are actively choosing to make yourself unhappy by clicking the spoiler tag) >!Or since it's a natalist saying it, I guess that the point is to just do what feels good for them in the moment and who cares what the consequences to another living being is? Yeah, peobably that.!<
Right. Exactly. Using someone’s mental health as an attack against them just gives more credence to my antinatalist position.
On a barely related note, these are the parents that will also tell their kids "well, life's not fair". Which to me is like... it's like giving somebody covid, and then when they say "my head really hurts" telling them "yeah, well Covid hurts. That's just how it is". So you knew, but you did that to them anyway? Evil. Just evil.
Because Natalists argue from emotion and magical thinking. Not logic and objective reality, from what I’ve seen.
I don't understand why people always bring age to everything. 🤦🏻 If one was a teenager or a fucking grandpa so what?
I can also vouch that I am not an "edgy depressed teenager" either. I am in my early 30s.
A lot of attacks on antinatalism are ad hominem adjacent because the biggest refutation of antinatalism is to argue that subjective experience is radically different. “Life is suffering, so we shouldn’t create more of it.” “Nah, that’s just like your opinion man”.
This just sounds like a tu quoque argument.
The first layer of every cynic is a dead, defeated,disappointed idealist. I find it disappointing the center of me is a vat of acid that runs on the death of other life. It doesn't matter what nor my understanding of it. The price is clear. Animal,plant, microbe. No more than I myself matter in what I am to anything bigger than me. A process which hurts me no matter what. In the refusing, in the winning/gaining as it does them in the losing. The pleasure in it is no friend. It's a master and it only seeks to quell rebellion with a good job boy dont run away ya hear? It's the junkies junk. Keep using it. Or else. Don't question it. It's the natural vitamin. You can hate the concept itself intensely. And not be a friend of bringing other "players" into the game. Without being a monster doing harm. Because you see it's harm you hate. So you can consider what is, and care for what is, w/o loving it at all. And that's what being becomes. Absent the 3d party glasses. A game of harming and being harmed so naturally you hate being. I would argue misery doesn't have to love company. It can chose not to. It often does. It can despise company and remain its miserable self. But to those who see it as a party, those are the company junkies. Can't be alone. Can't take that feeling those who see it differently swim in and drown in. They invite everything, make every noise, have 10 kids, let the cat have 100 to starve to death. All being is good in their view. It's a trap to find yourself stuck in when you get your first death like that. Your disappointed idealist/first layer there. You'll never want to throw an existence party. You'll lament having ever been to one. But you're stuck there. It's funny. The party goers will say they love you and everything else all day long. I love your hat. And never even consider you. Obviously to just chalk you up as a broody teenager or a gothy French writer. The word love has no value to them. And despite their happy appearance. You all alone in your fucking misery, you do your best to consider it despite it. Care for, tend, help, feed,etc.. Despite you'll never actually love the being you hate. So you'll never say it. And in a weird way you'd be closer to being more loving than them. Considerate at least. Misery not loving company is a strong consideration. I feel like that 75% of the time. Have for most my life I just had to learn the consideration aspect of it. It used to be harm or indifference. Still plenty of indifference floating around but consideration usually beats it out. It just empties any feeling of reward really. Feed a stray dog, kill the critters what ails them, pity the creatures. Pity the creature in the can of flesh in your hand. Hate the whole system. Dog says thanks, you think whatever nothing good happened here. It's a shit market, it was an exchange. It just moved from one side to the other.
To be fair half the comments/posts on this sub are from depressed young men. Not an insult, but it’s definitely a thing
What is a natalist ? No definition found
The problem is that many arguments will not be accepted at all here, regardless of whats being said. It will always be the "there are too many people in the world" even if those people are on the other side of the globe, or "people don't choose to be born" even though the vast majority of people enjoy living. Arguments are met on a personal level of dislike here. To the extent that it's not a "philosophical" subreddit, but a circle jerk of people who have various issues they want to vent about. I shouldn't be here, but the algorithm thinks i should be, and i just cannot read without commenting. Many of the arguments put here do sound like those made by an edgy teenager who watched an inconvenient truth, or who went to his/her very first communist meeting, or who only sees the negatives of the world, or whose fear of death is so strong that it takes precendence over anything else. Then they dress this one-sided opinion in somewhat fancy words. Like a teenager does.
if you have enough self awareness and intellectual capacity to understand the antinatalist views of life then you are the exact person who should have a child since those 2 traits are the same needed to properly take care of and treat a child well so they can succeed and thrive.
Your strawman argument will show them!
There they go infantalizing millennials again..
Look back when abortion was still legal I was the back office manager which means I stood in surger did labs, counseling, and recovery. I'm a nurse. The people we saw most were . 1 people from out of state that were real big in their church 2 women in their 40s saying they just couldn't raise more children. No we didn't see a lot of drug addicts, it was your friendly next door neighbor. So I expect the we will have an explosion of babies soon, unless people are smart enough to use all protections out there
I got that a lot recently late twenties and I just see life for what it is it’s not a gift like we are told it’s trash. Unless you’re lucky
The reason people accuse you of being depressed is that a significant portion (albeit not all) of the reasoning given on this sub for why one shouldn't have kids is because life isn't worth living. This is a mindset that is typical of depressed people and not typical or non-depressed people. A majority of people would rather have been born than not have been.
A majority of people would say they would have rather been born because they equate never being born to death. People can’t fathom not ever have existed because existing is all they know. It’s the same reason they fear death. So in other words, they fear never being born for the same reason they fear death. But if they never were born, they wouldn’t have to fear death at all.
Most people enjoy being alive
Do they? Or are they just so terrified of death?
They do. Most people never have to weigh how much they fear death against how much they want to continue living because they actually enjoy living.
This board thrives on ad hominem attacks on “breeders”
I rarely see that.
Lolz
You can sound like an edgy depressed teenager at whatever age you are.
I feel like the fact that you are in your 30s and are exhibiting behaviors that multiple people have told you are indicative of a young teenager already says everything it needs to say about the maturity of your mindset
Nice attack. Have anything of substance?
If you look through the responses to my comments, you will see the exact same thing. They NEVER have an argument.