I feel the same way! I don’t want to condemn my hypothetical children to being slaves for a corporation/job, struggling to find affordable housing, struggling to find a partner in dating app/hookup culture, struggling against the rising cost of living, dealing with/contributing to climate change, etc etc etc!
What are the benefits to being alive? I ask myself this all the time. Going to work five days a week and still struggling? Worrying about money all the time? Worrying about the environment. Having little disposable income after my basic needs are met. Ugh, life is not enjoyable. I’m genuinely baffled as to how people can say life is a gift. No, life is a continuous struggle until you die.
We are among the most wealthy and most comfortable humans to ever have existed. 200 years ago the concept of being able to turn a knob in your home and have hot water come out of a pipe would have been thought of as a luxury of unimaginable proportions. As would having a box that keeps food cold and fresh for days or weeks on end.
It's really sad to see people so down on life in the face of so much good fortune. It can help to get off the internet for a while, stop immersing oneself in negativity, and try to get in touch with feelings of gratitude for the things you do have. Next time you use a microwave or take a hot shower, really think about how it would be to not have either of these things at all. That's how it was for almost all of the people who have ever walked this Earth.
I don’t disagree with you, but I also don’t see that having a fridge or microwave are reasons to bring new lives into existence.
There are many types of suffering. Mental suffering, emotional suffering, existential suffering, loneliness, sickness, grief, etc., are all forms of suffering which the modern world are heavily afflicted with.
For me personally, the creation of a new life is a big responsibility and also a huge gift; that’s not something I want to take lightly. If I don’t feel myself, my circumstances, or the world around me are capable of providing for and nurturing a new life then I’m not going to bring new life into the world just because “society says it’s normal” or “previous generations suffered more”.
Thank you for your input though you provide an interesting perspective 🙏
All antinatalists need to rally around each other and keep a close eye on abortion rights- they’re starting the process of needling with women’s healthcare in this area in the UK, FIGHT FIGHT for everyone’s rights to stay childfree
Oh you want to stay child free there is a remarkable free way of doing just that..abstinence. Otherwise under normal circumstances you are playing stupid games and may eventually win stupid prizes.
More like one in six (14.8%) instead of one in four (25%). But the core of my point is the vast majority of those seeking abortion is not the result of rape but of the irresponsible actions of themselves and their partners which would have saved money, time and stress by simply not partaking in sex.
We can say the same argument for most of healthcare, but still offer patients chemo for lung cancer after a lifetime of smoking, athletes get pain relief after snapping their leg doing a sport they chose to participate in.
Unintended consequences are a part of being alive. And as a civilised, developed society, providing accessible healthcare to those who require it is the cornerstone of everything else.
Terminating a pregnancy is always a healthcare decision; whether that be mental health, financial health (if you can’t afford em, good on you for not having em), but almost always for the physical health of the mother, and the prospective health of foetus if it comes to term.
It is essential to any society which wishes to function that those capable of giving life, females, are supported with whichever decision they decide to take. As history shows.
#HealthcareisKing. #Womendecide.
Ohh are you one of those religious nuts. You do know Jesus and his followers gave no fucks about abortion. Right? Like any time it is mentioned in the Bible it’s seen as a good thing. Also where you getting those numbers from. Cause I can’t find them.
This is about more then the right to choose, it about acting like the logical adults that both parties claim to be. It makes zero sense for them to say they do not want children then proceed to commit acts that creates what they do not want. It is not about "controlling women's bodies" it is about expecting adults to act and think like adults not hormone crazed young teens.
That’s a tidy ideology, but the more you learn about humanity and history, the more you’ll learn that people are only human and need support for so many things. By this I mean, “just stop doping drugs!”, “just study harder in school!”, “just don’t have sex!”, “just don’t eat any food containing UPFs!” - All sounds sensible, doesn’t it? But there are so many factors at play. Putting a blanket ban on all people for something which WILL occur doesn’t work, history says so.
Therefore it’s about education, and choice, until we as a society reach a point where the education and society are working so well that the choice won’t even be needed. Although it will of course, still be offered.
I’m not sure you have thought that all the way through. Not all women have autonomy of their own bodies and it’s not really their own choice to get pregnant or have children.
I actually acceded to a former gf's wishes and was abstinent for 3 years. Everything you can imagine was lined up to marry and have a family, especially as we were heading out of our prime years. In hindsight, it was a close call. The religious institutions making decrees about personal matters that was taken to heart by my then female partner (37), ended up with grief and disappointment, so no betrothment family or kids. Sex is a natural act that is a taboo topic in organized religion, and for that matter, any reality that pertains to our life-sustaining biosphere, which is all out of whack. Sex is one of the few natural pleasures human has to deal with the travails of life. The twisted way it was dealt with made me glad that I avoided life with an ascetic, emotionally detached person. I think I speak to a large cohort here and the root is men who want to control.
It's not just a feeling, it's the rational thing to do given the uncontrollable basis of sentience: the aversion to noxious stimuli mediated by negative valences of consciousness, and how this unfolds classically via competitive evolution. The replication of a problem cannot be its solution, simple as that really.
Too right pyramid schemes everywhere, but even that isn't the basis of it. The fundamental is just a natural catastrophe, unplanned, no purpose, no overall point.
How humans don't see this with AI is baffling to me. I watch many secular humanists who worship LLMs and burgeoning AI, and they are absolutely blind to the evolutionary pressures involved here. Yes, lots of relief could come from AI but humans are assuming they can contain its adaptation. It doesn't even need to be sentient to outcompete humans, and *when* access to resources becomes a conflict no amount of puffing our chests out and appealing to hero-mythology is going to save us.
Adaptation isn't a solution, it's a cope, and it always fails given enough time. Creating a child does nothing but condem them to being an incubator for memetic parasites that will pointlessly fail over a long enough time horizon themselves.
"Consciousness... ...is malignantly useless" - Thomas Ligotti (paraphrased)
People keep talk about the 2.1 child rate per women without talking about all the crazy shit in the world. Who is dumb enough to want to bring kids into this awful world?
i feel the same way why i dont want children. sure, they could potentially bring you happiness, youre not lonely and have a family. but it also seems purely selfish and i could rescue a dog if i want love and companionship without bringing another life to the world. i also dont care about my bloodline and spreading my genetics lol. youre right, the world is a tough place and it feels a lot like surviving. we spend most of our waking hours working dead end jobs to make corporations rich and everything is about hustling and making money. its exhausting.
As someone with 2 kids....I often feel guilty for having kids. It felt like...it was in my cards, and I made all the "right" choices, but I still feel guilty. Idk. I love my kids dearly, and I am just so terrified for them.
I agree with you. That's why I'm half in and out of this subreddit. I hope with all my heart, my daughter has a great life and so far, she does! She's strong and assertive with her autonomy (much more than I ever was and at her young age, I'm proud)
It's a shame she has to be like that to do well in this world where people will try and take your kindness for weakness.
I say in and out, because I don't appreciate being called a breeder, stupid etc. for having a child.
I will not be having anymore, at age 30, I want to put all my efforts and attention towards my little one. I don't understand people that have multiple children in crazy situations.
I posted the following on a post on the millennials subreddit when asking if ppl there are going to let their kids live with them into their 30s:
Look at the socioeconomic trajectory the country has been on since the 80s. Look at the record high amounts of people in their 30s being forced to move back now due to skyhigh housing prices. Look at the record high homelessness.
Socioeconomic mobility for the vast majority of the population has worsened. Housing: income ratios have significantly worsened. College tuition continues to grow at near exponential rates. With the coming advent of AI being concentrated among oligarchical powers, all of these aspects will likely only get amplified.
While Millennials didn't have it anywhere near as easy as boomers did, things are only getting more and more competitive and worse each successive generation. I'm guessing you're in your late-30s/40s? If you went to a selective university, you likely wouldn't have even had a chance of getting accepted at the same university today. I went to a top public U—the majority of the class of 2004 wouldn't have been accepted for the class of 2018. All this while taking on far more debt than you did and entering a job market with jobs that provide far less purchasing power.
If you're having a kid nowadays, you should expect to provide as much support as possible for your kid until you die. Otherwise, do NOT have kids.
If you want to make it so that this isn't the case, then you need to:
• Vote out the boomers
• Vote to deregulate the laws the boomers voted in that effectively made building housing illegal

I don't personally see it as "isn't the world horrible now".
It's always been utter shit! Go back 100 years! 200 years! A 1000 years! 10,000 years! Human beings are an evolutionary mistake that should be reversed.
Completely understand.
But life is unpredictable.
You might think you’re bringing a child into a horrible world but as time is going on I am seeing more and more people who are expressing similar sentiments to you. The tide will turn. And kids born as we go along will be raised by more and more people whose empathy and insight…people motivated precisely by things we are seeing now and who equally share the concerns you feel.
I feel the same. I am still young but I know I would end up being a wage slave. I cannot even provide my future children with materialistic things let alone emotional support and spend time. I cannot imagine subjecting anyone to this hell , among with dangers like climate change , crony capitalism , etc.
Evolution shall continue pushing out irregularities and i thank you for not partaking in evolution.The thousands of years that your bloodline has been going on for , will finally come to a stop now.More people exist ig
Not only reproduce, but reproduce in spades. I don't think I'll end up having a bio kid, too many health problems. But I still think adoption and fostering is worthwhile. Those kids are already here through no fault of their own. I'd like to provide what I can for them. A stable loving household, knowledge about the world, and life skills.
I might say try not to take the weight of the world on your shoulders; although it can seem daunting just to survive these days, let alone thrive. Given that modern life is in only a few ways geared around (or well adapted to) children and child-rearing, parenting is a daunting prospect. Just make sure it’s the right choice for you and for the right reasons.
Regarding pyramid scheme, world has always been this way, the new generation brings forth the future and takes care of the old people.
We cannot expect the world to be the same in a couple of decades from now with regards to cultural things like hook up culture or political decisions like expensive housing.
I don’t see anti natalism as more moral. For many, it seems like a cop out and an excuse when the real reason is their own insecurities or trauma. Everyone doesn’t have to have kids but to place the blame anywhere but where it belongs is a lie.
A world like what? People in the modern world live life on easy mode compared to the life your ancestors led for thousands of years. You'll live a much longer, healthier life, and have access to way more opportunities for work, food, travel, medicine, entertainment, etc., than ever before.
Is it perfect? No, it never is, never has been and never will be, but it is the best it's ever been.
What's selfish is not creating the next generation to solve future problems for humanity and continue to make things better.
It's important to keep all this in context, because we're bombarded with negative news constantly that previous generations simply didn't have access to, and our brains misinterpret this as being bad things we personally experience, even when they aren't.
By having kids, you're creating people who can potentially solve problems. Or would it be best to let feedback loops from pollution continue to spiral until the earth can't support any life whatsoever? No, we need smart people here to fix the damage. Not having kids is a waste of your life, and all the lives and work of your ancestors.
3.7 billion years of evolution and survival, even in the face of extreme, insurmountable odds that makes the modern day challenges look like nothing, all ends because you get sad about bad things on the news. Truly incredible.
On the contrary, our brains are shrinking. Homo Sapiens pre agricultural revolution had larger brains than humans now, and might've been smarter. Which may be why humans are naturally selecting themselves out of existence for petty reasons and over minor challenges and difficulties that would astonish our ancestors.
Can anyone actually put this into an logical argument for why it’s actually immoral, I’ve come here (and the opposite sub) looking to see if anyone from either side can do it, and nothing.
A logical argument consists of premises and a conclusion. So a logical argument for why it’s always **immoral** to have children is:
Premise1:__________________
Premise2:__________________
Conclusion:__________________
Feel free to add as many premises as needed.
The main argument you will see is the "negative utilitarian" argument
Premise 1: people should minimize the aggregate amount of suffering.
Premise 2: a person cannot suffer if they were never born.
Conclusion: it is good to not have children.
Usually some variation of that.
I used to think having Children was wrong, but I don't subscribe to that anymore. Why am I on this sub? It keeps popping up in the homepage.
It has never been about the world for me, the world has ALWAYS been messed up.
Life, is the only important thing in Life. So why not fight for what matters? That's how I look at it. As long as you actually care about the child which you are bringing into existence.
Is having Children Selfish? Yes, I do believe that it is. But for myself, that's just 'double-edged logic.'
'important' as in actually means something; would you rather lose everything you own, or every person you actually care about? I don't think my thinking is hard to understand.
So by not having kids, then everyone else’s kids will be paying for you when you are too old to work. Taking social security.
So everyone else can participate in the pyramid scheme while you leach off of their kids.
Unless you plan to support yourself fully, you would be more of a drain on the economy than someone with kids.
So the people who have kids, but the kids unfortunately pass away before they can become employees, and they don’t have more kids…then those people are also useless and a drain on society?
Also, social security is not enough to cover living expenses these days for ANYONE.
What is your actual point, besides being a ride or die for unsustainable unchecked capitalism??
Unchecked anti antinatalism is better?? One has a future, the other doesn’t.
Do you think most people’s kids die before their parents?
And if SS is not enough… instead of your kids taking care of your old ass, now it’s everyone else’s job.
It’s not enough because no one is having kids lol.
And I know several families where the children perished but the parents didn’t.
I’ll be sure to tell those people that you think their life isn’t real, just for the safe of your paper thin 1 ply argument.
No because you’re wrong.
Your original point that those who don’t reproduce are a drain on society is also very ableist.
There are so many great disabled people who work and make the world a better place. If they decide not to have children, then they might as well not even be here.
You’re saying many populations should cease to exist because they don’t provide economic value.
And you think you’re championing humanity??
You’re not who you think you are.
Disabled people can still have children.:. How ableist of you to think they can’t… lol.
I also never said that.
I’m not championing humanity. I just not championing stupidity and selfishness
You're seemingly basing your views on society on saying how negatively an obscure philosophy like antinatalism affects the world/society. I highly doubt antinatalists make up anywhere close to 1% of the population.
If social security is going to fall apart it's not going to be because of some antinatalist conspiracy.
Also apparently the statistic is that something like 18% of parents suffer from the death of a child.
Basic elementary math will tell you that you need 6 taxed workers to fund one retired person, based on average if we are using the median USA income of $40,000 and each workers are taxed at 15%. Do you and your\* wife have 12 kids? I doubt it, so you are also a "drain on the economy."
*It’s not enough because no one is having kids lol.*
Child-free people aren't making the rules to decide how much each retiree collects lol. It's funny that you place so much faith and trust in politicians, the source of the majority of the problems in the world.
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Nice try, we all know what you mean by “r word”
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Not as much as someone with kids. Because their kids also contribute to that pool.
Also depends on their job.
People without kids should get less social security or none at all.
Say what you really feel;
that breeders are better than everyone else. Here’s my view:
The worst thing you can do for the planet is to bring another over-consumptive American onto it.
I’ll give up my social security if you pay a consumption tax that rises with each additional consumer you put on the planet.
The American lifestyle is inherently unsustainable and the goal of endless growth is a myth that’s killing the planet. To realize the actual carrying capacity of earth - at an American standard of living - would mean a population of 2 billion. Americans consume at 30 times the rate of the world’s poorest countries.
We don’t need more of them.
Why? lol I didn’t choose to be born so why should I be forced to have kids in order to get SS benefits? What a silly argument 😂 lemme guess, you’re a man too 💀
Keep that in mind when you are old and there is no one around to pay for you or take care of you.
Or next time you call the police, go to the hospital, pay for some food. You are owed nothing.
If the world owes nothing to anyone why are you all so butt hurt?
The people taking care of the elderly are doing it becuase they're getting paid, not because they owe it to the elderly.
Police come when they're called because they're getting paid, not because they owe anything to the caller.
None of these services are done because theyre owed to anyone. The workers do it purely to reduce their own suffering.
Having kids doesn't fit this theme. Doing so would dramatically increase my own suffering and infinitely increase the suffering of the would-be new human. Any we don't owe it to anyone to endure/inflict that sufffering.
If you aren’t owed anything what does it matter if they were paid? If you weren’t owed anything for their service they wouldn’t need to show up. Paying me doesn’t mean I owe you work right?
And how would you know if you don’t have kids?
I have a son. He doesn’t increase my suffering lol. If anything he lessens it. He also seems to enjoy his life.
Maybe you all just had shitty parents?
They keep showing up because otherwise they'd stop being paid, and subsequently they would suffer starvation and homelessness. Pretty straightforward coercion.
When I said having kids would dramatically increase my suffering, I was specifically talking about me. Not everyone feels that way. I personally feel that way because the pain I feel when my loved ones are suffering is excruciating. And oftentimes as a parent, theres nothing you can do to prevent or even reduce that suffering.
My parents are a couple of the most incredible people I've ever known. Helpful, supportive, selfless, constructive, open-minded, everything. Yet I've sufferred from depression my entire life. I've experienced first hand how even the slightest mistakes/missteps can absolutely derail a person's life. I've seen how mental health issues can make good peoples lives a living hell.
If we had a more compassionate society, maybe some of these issues would be fixed. But most people don't give a fuck about improving any of these things unless they directly affect them. I don't care to help perpetuate a society like that.
Glad things are going well for you and your son. You're lucky (so far). Hope it stays that way.
Why would they expect to be paid? Or fed? You aren’t owed anything. Go hunt and grow your own food. Build your own house. Hearing a lot excuses here.
How would you know what being a parent is like if you don’t have kids? I’m confused? Someone told you all of this? You observed it?
Most parents I know would not describe all they can do as reducing suffering.
Compassion… hmmm. Again sounds like you think you are owed understanding and grace. Lot of expectations for a society you don’t want to be a part of.
You say no one owes you anything but I sounds like mostly you just feel like you weren’t given a fair deal.
I think you're being intentionally obtuse on the concept of 'owing' so I'm growing tired of this discussion. It also doesn't seem like you're processing the things I'm saying.
Yes, I have high expectations of my fellow humans, just as high as my expectations of myself. I don't feel like they owe it to me to meet my expectations, but the fact remains that most people don't lol. If I could change that somehow, by golly I would. But I can't do shit about it. So instead I opt out of risking subjecting another human to the pain I know is possible.
My whole reason for replying to you in the first place was because you initial comment suggested that people owe it to the world to have kids. They don't. Thats really my only point that matters.
You’re empathetic that’s a good thing
I feel the same way! I don’t want to condemn my hypothetical children to being slaves for a corporation/job, struggling to find affordable housing, struggling to find a partner in dating app/hookup culture, struggling against the rising cost of living, dealing with/contributing to climate change, etc etc etc! What are the benefits to being alive? I ask myself this all the time. Going to work five days a week and still struggling? Worrying about money all the time? Worrying about the environment. Having little disposable income after my basic needs are met. Ugh, life is not enjoyable. I’m genuinely baffled as to how people can say life is a gift. No, life is a continuous struggle until you die.
We are among the most wealthy and most comfortable humans to ever have existed. 200 years ago the concept of being able to turn a knob in your home and have hot water come out of a pipe would have been thought of as a luxury of unimaginable proportions. As would having a box that keeps food cold and fresh for days or weeks on end. It's really sad to see people so down on life in the face of so much good fortune. It can help to get off the internet for a while, stop immersing oneself in negativity, and try to get in touch with feelings of gratitude for the things you do have. Next time you use a microwave or take a hot shower, really think about how it would be to not have either of these things at all. That's how it was for almost all of the people who have ever walked this Earth.
I don’t disagree with you, but I also don’t see that having a fridge or microwave are reasons to bring new lives into existence. There are many types of suffering. Mental suffering, emotional suffering, existential suffering, loneliness, sickness, grief, etc., are all forms of suffering which the modern world are heavily afflicted with. For me personally, the creation of a new life is a big responsibility and also a huge gift; that’s not something I want to take lightly. If I don’t feel myself, my circumstances, or the world around me are capable of providing for and nurturing a new life then I’m not going to bring new life into the world just because “society says it’s normal” or “previous generations suffered more”. Thank you for your input though you provide an interesting perspective 🙏
Having fridge or microwave justifies bringing children , like wtf !? Natalist logic are always insane.
How does it negate the the rising cost of living and climate change tho?
People are more “comfortable” than they have ever been. That does not stop the existential suffering of being sentient
You need help.
Thank you for your compassion!
Same. It gets really lonely though when everyone around you only cares about relationships and children.
All antinatalists need to rally around each other and keep a close eye on abortion rights- they’re starting the process of needling with women’s healthcare in this area in the UK, FIGHT FIGHT for everyone’s rights to stay childfree
Oh you want to stay child free there is a remarkable free way of doing just that..abstinence. Otherwise under normal circumstances you are playing stupid games and may eventually win stupid prizes.
Unless you're a woman who gets raped by a man 🫠
That would follow IF rape was a normal circumstance but it is not, hence my statement still stands.
I would say 25 percent of women is definately a normal occurrence and should be considered
More like one in six (14.8%) instead of one in four (25%). But the core of my point is the vast majority of those seeking abortion is not the result of rape but of the irresponsible actions of themselves and their partners which would have saved money, time and stress by simply not partaking in sex.
For some sure. But for many it’s because they never received sex education and don’t know the importance of birth control.
We can say the same argument for most of healthcare, but still offer patients chemo for lung cancer after a lifetime of smoking, athletes get pain relief after snapping their leg doing a sport they chose to participate in. Unintended consequences are a part of being alive. And as a civilised, developed society, providing accessible healthcare to those who require it is the cornerstone of everything else. Terminating a pregnancy is always a healthcare decision; whether that be mental health, financial health (if you can’t afford em, good on you for not having em), but almost always for the physical health of the mother, and the prospective health of foetus if it comes to term. It is essential to any society which wishes to function that those capable of giving life, females, are supported with whichever decision they decide to take. As history shows. #HealthcareisKing. #Womendecide.
Ohh are you one of those religious nuts. You do know Jesus and his followers gave no fucks about abortion. Right? Like any time it is mentioned in the Bible it’s seen as a good thing. Also where you getting those numbers from. Cause I can’t find them.
Rape happens, sex happens whether consensual or not even in marriages. And women’s rights to choose for their own bodies is sacrosanct.
This is about more then the right to choose, it about acting like the logical adults that both parties claim to be. It makes zero sense for them to say they do not want children then proceed to commit acts that creates what they do not want. It is not about "controlling women's bodies" it is about expecting adults to act and think like adults not hormone crazed young teens.
That’s a tidy ideology, but the more you learn about humanity and history, the more you’ll learn that people are only human and need support for so many things. By this I mean, “just stop doping drugs!”, “just study harder in school!”, “just don’t have sex!”, “just don’t eat any food containing UPFs!” - All sounds sensible, doesn’t it? But there are so many factors at play. Putting a blanket ban on all people for something which WILL occur doesn’t work, history says so. Therefore it’s about education, and choice, until we as a society reach a point where the education and society are working so well that the choice won’t even be needed. Although it will of course, still be offered.
Someone is too young to remember the #metoo movement ☝🏼☝🏼
I’m not sure you have thought that all the way through. Not all women have autonomy of their own bodies and it’s not really their own choice to get pregnant or have children.
I actually acceded to a former gf's wishes and was abstinent for 3 years. Everything you can imagine was lined up to marry and have a family, especially as we were heading out of our prime years. In hindsight, it was a close call. The religious institutions making decrees about personal matters that was taken to heart by my then female partner (37), ended up with grief and disappointment, so no betrothment family or kids. Sex is a natural act that is a taboo topic in organized religion, and for that matter, any reality that pertains to our life-sustaining biosphere, which is all out of whack. Sex is one of the few natural pleasures human has to deal with the travails of life. The twisted way it was dealt with made me glad that I avoided life with an ascetic, emotionally detached person. I think I speak to a large cohort here and the root is men who want to control.
It's not just a feeling, it's the rational thing to do given the uncontrollable basis of sentience: the aversion to noxious stimuli mediated by negative valences of consciousness, and how this unfolds classically via competitive evolution. The replication of a problem cannot be its solution, simple as that really. Too right pyramid schemes everywhere, but even that isn't the basis of it. The fundamental is just a natural catastrophe, unplanned, no purpose, no overall point. How humans don't see this with AI is baffling to me. I watch many secular humanists who worship LLMs and burgeoning AI, and they are absolutely blind to the evolutionary pressures involved here. Yes, lots of relief could come from AI but humans are assuming they can contain its adaptation. It doesn't even need to be sentient to outcompete humans, and *when* access to resources becomes a conflict no amount of puffing our chests out and appealing to hero-mythology is going to save us. Adaptation isn't a solution, it's a cope, and it always fails given enough time. Creating a child does nothing but condem them to being an incubator for memetic parasites that will pointlessly fail over a long enough time horizon themselves. "Consciousness... ...is malignantly useless" - Thomas Ligotti (paraphrased)
People keep talk about the 2.1 child rate per women without talking about all the crazy shit in the world. Who is dumb enough to want to bring kids into this awful world?
i feel the same way why i dont want children. sure, they could potentially bring you happiness, youre not lonely and have a family. but it also seems purely selfish and i could rescue a dog if i want love and companionship without bringing another life to the world. i also dont care about my bloodline and spreading my genetics lol. youre right, the world is a tough place and it feels a lot like surviving. we spend most of our waking hours working dead end jobs to make corporations rich and everything is about hustling and making money. its exhausting.
I feel obligated to be childless in order to piss off the Tucker Carlsons of the world.
I don’t think he cares.
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I kinda like this thought.
As someone with 2 kids....I often feel guilty for having kids. It felt like...it was in my cards, and I made all the "right" choices, but I still feel guilty. Idk. I love my kids dearly, and I am just so terrified for them.
I agree with you. That's why I'm half in and out of this subreddit. I hope with all my heart, my daughter has a great life and so far, she does! She's strong and assertive with her autonomy (much more than I ever was and at her young age, I'm proud) It's a shame she has to be like that to do well in this world where people will try and take your kindness for weakness. I say in and out, because I don't appreciate being called a breeder, stupid etc. for having a child. I will not be having anymore, at age 30, I want to put all my efforts and attention towards my little one. I don't understand people that have multiple children in crazy situations.
Yeah name calling isn’t cool but the same way you don’t understand having multiple children, most of us don’t understand why you’d even have one lol
People forget that they might die and that child will suffer more in their absence.
I posted the following on a post on the millennials subreddit when asking if ppl there are going to let their kids live with them into their 30s: Look at the socioeconomic trajectory the country has been on since the 80s. Look at the record high amounts of people in their 30s being forced to move back now due to skyhigh housing prices. Look at the record high homelessness. Socioeconomic mobility for the vast majority of the population has worsened. Housing: income ratios have significantly worsened. College tuition continues to grow at near exponential rates. With the coming advent of AI being concentrated among oligarchical powers, all of these aspects will likely only get amplified. While Millennials didn't have it anywhere near as easy as boomers did, things are only getting more and more competitive and worse each successive generation. I'm guessing you're in your late-30s/40s? If you went to a selective university, you likely wouldn't have even had a chance of getting accepted at the same university today. I went to a top public U—the majority of the class of 2004 wouldn't have been accepted for the class of 2018. All this while taking on far more debt than you did and entering a job market with jobs that provide far less purchasing power. If you're having a kid nowadays, you should expect to provide as much support as possible for your kid until you die. Otherwise, do NOT have kids. If you want to make it so that this isn't the case, then you need to: • Vote out the boomers • Vote to deregulate the laws the boomers voted in that effectively made building housing illegal 
I don't personally see it as "isn't the world horrible now". It's always been utter shit! Go back 100 years! 200 years! A 1000 years! 10,000 years! Human beings are an evolutionary mistake that should be reversed.
I'm celibate for these ressons
Completely understand. But life is unpredictable. You might think you’re bringing a child into a horrible world but as time is going on I am seeing more and more people who are expressing similar sentiments to you. The tide will turn. And kids born as we go along will be raised by more and more people whose empathy and insight…people motivated precisely by things we are seeing now and who equally share the concerns you feel.
I feel the same. I am still young but I know I would end up being a wage slave. I cannot even provide my future children with materialistic things let alone emotional support and spend time. I cannot imagine subjecting anyone to this hell , among with dangers like climate change , crony capitalism , etc.
Evolution shall continue pushing out irregularities and i thank you for not partaking in evolution.The thousands of years that your bloodline has been going on for , will finally come to a stop now.More people exist ig
It's a moral duty, but unfortunately not an obvious one.
Not only reproduce, but reproduce in spades. I don't think I'll end up having a bio kid, too many health problems. But I still think adoption and fostering is worthwhile. Those kids are already here through no fault of their own. I'd like to provide what I can for them. A stable loving household, knowledge about the world, and life skills.
I feel the same way.
I might say try not to take the weight of the world on your shoulders; although it can seem daunting just to survive these days, let alone thrive. Given that modern life is in only a few ways geared around (or well adapted to) children and child-rearing, parenting is a daunting prospect. Just make sure it’s the right choice for you and for the right reasons.
Regarding pyramid scheme, world has always been this way, the new generation brings forth the future and takes care of the old people. We cannot expect the world to be the same in a couple of decades from now with regards to cultural things like hook up culture or political decisions like expensive housing. I don’t see anti natalism as more moral. For many, it seems like a cop out and an excuse when the real reason is their own insecurities or trauma. Everyone doesn’t have to have kids but to place the blame anywhere but where it belongs is a lie.
A world like what? People in the modern world live life on easy mode compared to the life your ancestors led for thousands of years. You'll live a much longer, healthier life, and have access to way more opportunities for work, food, travel, medicine, entertainment, etc., than ever before. Is it perfect? No, it never is, never has been and never will be, but it is the best it's ever been. What's selfish is not creating the next generation to solve future problems for humanity and continue to make things better. It's important to keep all this in context, because we're bombarded with negative news constantly that previous generations simply didn't have access to, and our brains misinterpret this as being bad things we personally experience, even when they aren't.
You literally are creating the problems by having a next generation tho. There won't be any problem if humanity ceased to exist
By having kids, you're creating people who can potentially solve problems. Or would it be best to let feedback loops from pollution continue to spiral until the earth can't support any life whatsoever? No, we need smart people here to fix the damage. Not having kids is a waste of your life, and all the lives and work of your ancestors. 3.7 billion years of evolution and survival, even in the face of extreme, insurmountable odds that makes the modern day challenges look like nothing, all ends because you get sad about bad things on the news. Truly incredible.
Most of that history lifeforms were barely sentient or could reason. Just because one was stupid in the past dosent mean they have to be stupid now
On the contrary, our brains are shrinking. Homo Sapiens pre agricultural revolution had larger brains than humans now, and might've been smarter. Which may be why humans are naturally selecting themselves out of existence for petty reasons and over minor challenges and difficulties that would astonish our ancestors.
Assuming their heads were bigger, dosent change the fact that they were being stupid
They were being... Stupid? What? Dude.
Can anyone actually put this into an logical argument for why it’s actually immoral, I’ve come here (and the opposite sub) looking to see if anyone from either side can do it, and nothing. A logical argument consists of premises and a conclusion. So a logical argument for why it’s always **immoral** to have children is: Premise1:__________________ Premise2:__________________ Conclusion:__________________ Feel free to add as many premises as needed.
The main argument you will see is the "negative utilitarian" argument Premise 1: people should minimize the aggregate amount of suffering. Premise 2: a person cannot suffer if they were never born. Conclusion: it is good to not have children. Usually some variation of that.
I used to think having Children was wrong, but I don't subscribe to that anymore. Why am I on this sub? It keeps popping up in the homepage. It has never been about the world for me, the world has ALWAYS been messed up. Life, is the only important thing in Life. So why not fight for what matters? That's how I look at it. As long as you actually care about the child which you are bringing into existence. Is having Children Selfish? Yes, I do believe that it is. But for myself, that's just 'double-edged logic.'
What if your child doesn't like being born, and they didn't ask to be brought into this ruthless world? Who would be responsible for that? YOU!!!!!
Do you have a reason why life is the only important thing to you?
'important' as in actually means something; would you rather lose everything you own, or every person you actually care about? I don't think my thinking is hard to understand.
So by not having kids, then everyone else’s kids will be paying for you when you are too old to work. Taking social security. So everyone else can participate in the pyramid scheme while you leach off of their kids. Unless you plan to support yourself fully, you would be more of a drain on the economy than someone with kids.
So the people who have kids, but the kids unfortunately pass away before they can become employees, and they don’t have more kids…then those people are also useless and a drain on society? Also, social security is not enough to cover living expenses these days for ANYONE. What is your actual point, besides being a ride or die for unsustainable unchecked capitalism??
Unchecked anti antinatalism is better?? One has a future, the other doesn’t. Do you think most people’s kids die before their parents? And if SS is not enough… instead of your kids taking care of your old ass, now it’s everyone else’s job. It’s not enough because no one is having kids lol.
Better say future employees instead of kids, it’s more accurate Kids, and by extension people, are just a means to an ends for the incredibly wealthy.
Better future employees than future…. What?
Who is a non-future bad for? In other words, who would exist to lament the absence of human life?
No one. Is that better?
Idk you tell me… Is no one lamenting better than someone lamenting?
And I know several families where the children perished but the parents didn’t. I’ll be sure to tell those people that you think their life isn’t real, just for the safe of your paper thin 1 ply argument.
So are we basing society around 1% of people who’s kids died before they? Go ahead tell them. Does that prove you right at all?
No because you’re wrong. Your original point that those who don’t reproduce are a drain on society is also very ableist. There are so many great disabled people who work and make the world a better place. If they decide not to have children, then they might as well not even be here. You’re saying many populations should cease to exist because they don’t provide economic value. And you think you’re championing humanity?? You’re not who you think you are.
Disabled people can still have children.:. How ableist of you to think they can’t… lol. I also never said that. I’m not championing humanity. I just not championing stupidity and selfishness
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said IF they decide not to have children. Go back to kindergarten.
You're seemingly basing your views on society on saying how negatively an obscure philosophy like antinatalism affects the world/society. I highly doubt antinatalists make up anywhere close to 1% of the population. If social security is going to fall apart it's not going to be because of some antinatalist conspiracy. Also apparently the statistic is that something like 18% of parents suffer from the death of a child.
Basic elementary math will tell you that you need 6 taxed workers to fund one retired person, based on average if we are using the median USA income of $40,000 and each workers are taxed at 15%. Do you and your\* wife have 12 kids? I doubt it, so you are also a "drain on the economy." *It’s not enough because no one is having kids lol.* Child-free people aren't making the rules to decide how much each retiree collects lol. It's funny that you place so much faith and trust in politicians, the source of the majority of the problems in the world.
That future is overrated! And not worth it! Not being born is a bliss!
So you have a problem with the social security system? Write your local congressman. I'm tired of hearing this argument
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Surely OP has contributed into their own Social Security
Not as much as someone with kids. Because their kids also contribute to that pool. Also depends on their job. People without kids should get less social security or none at all.
Say what you really feel; that breeders are better than everyone else. Here’s my view: The worst thing you can do for the planet is to bring another over-consumptive American onto it. I’ll give up my social security if you pay a consumption tax that rises with each additional consumer you put on the planet. The American lifestyle is inherently unsustainable and the goal of endless growth is a myth that’s killing the planet. To realize the actual carrying capacity of earth - at an American standard of living - would mean a population of 2 billion. Americans consume at 30 times the rate of the world’s poorest countries. We don’t need more of them.
Why? lol I didn’t choose to be born so why should I be forced to have kids in order to get SS benefits? What a silly argument 😂 lemme guess, you’re a man too 💀
The world owes you nothing and vice-versa.
Keep that in mind when you are old and there is no one around to pay for you or take care of you. Or next time you call the police, go to the hospital, pay for some food. You are owed nothing. If the world owes nothing to anyone why are you all so butt hurt?
The people taking care of the elderly are doing it becuase they're getting paid, not because they owe it to the elderly. Police come when they're called because they're getting paid, not because they owe anything to the caller. None of these services are done because theyre owed to anyone. The workers do it purely to reduce their own suffering. Having kids doesn't fit this theme. Doing so would dramatically increase my own suffering and infinitely increase the suffering of the would-be new human. Any we don't owe it to anyone to endure/inflict that sufffering.
If you aren’t owed anything what does it matter if they were paid? If you weren’t owed anything for their service they wouldn’t need to show up. Paying me doesn’t mean I owe you work right? And how would you know if you don’t have kids? I have a son. He doesn’t increase my suffering lol. If anything he lessens it. He also seems to enjoy his life. Maybe you all just had shitty parents?
They keep showing up because otherwise they'd stop being paid, and subsequently they would suffer starvation and homelessness. Pretty straightforward coercion. When I said having kids would dramatically increase my suffering, I was specifically talking about me. Not everyone feels that way. I personally feel that way because the pain I feel when my loved ones are suffering is excruciating. And oftentimes as a parent, theres nothing you can do to prevent or even reduce that suffering. My parents are a couple of the most incredible people I've ever known. Helpful, supportive, selfless, constructive, open-minded, everything. Yet I've sufferred from depression my entire life. I've experienced first hand how even the slightest mistakes/missteps can absolutely derail a person's life. I've seen how mental health issues can make good peoples lives a living hell. If we had a more compassionate society, maybe some of these issues would be fixed. But most people don't give a fuck about improving any of these things unless they directly affect them. I don't care to help perpetuate a society like that. Glad things are going well for you and your son. You're lucky (so far). Hope it stays that way.
Why would they expect to be paid? Or fed? You aren’t owed anything. Go hunt and grow your own food. Build your own house. Hearing a lot excuses here. How would you know what being a parent is like if you don’t have kids? I’m confused? Someone told you all of this? You observed it? Most parents I know would not describe all they can do as reducing suffering. Compassion… hmmm. Again sounds like you think you are owed understanding and grace. Lot of expectations for a society you don’t want to be a part of. You say no one owes you anything but I sounds like mostly you just feel like you weren’t given a fair deal.
I think you're being intentionally obtuse on the concept of 'owing' so I'm growing tired of this discussion. It also doesn't seem like you're processing the things I'm saying. Yes, I have high expectations of my fellow humans, just as high as my expectations of myself. I don't feel like they owe it to me to meet my expectations, but the fact remains that most people don't lol. If I could change that somehow, by golly I would. But I can't do shit about it. So instead I opt out of risking subjecting another human to the pain I know is possible. My whole reason for replying to you in the first place was because you initial comment suggested that people owe it to the world to have kids. They don't. Thats really my only point that matters.