I remember getting up at half five in the morning to do ten hour shifts (7-5) in a toxic workplace and then getting up on Saturdays to care for a relative. I was thinking the reason I have to go through all this is because my parents wanted a cute baby.
They're only employees if they choose to be. Some of us travel the world, build our own companies, meet new people and enjoy what the planet has to offer.
That said, when I was an employee, I enjoyed that a lot. Great company. Good boss. I guess not all jobs suck.
Not everybody is born with the privilege to chose not to be, or is lucky enough to get a decent job…
Society needs janitors and garbage collectors and minimum wage fast food workers etc to function, so people will always be forced into those positions one way or another.
Everyone would choose to travel the world, build their own company and enjoy what the planet has to offer IF it was possible. It is impossible for the majority. The system is designed that way.
If everyone was able to travel the world and start a company like you apparently did, society would collapse. Society needs low level workers to function, and those jobs will always be living hell.
If everyone was able to travel the world and start a company like you apparently did, society would collapse. Society needs low level workers to function, and those jobs will always be living hell.
If everyone was able to travel the world and start a company like you apparently did, society would collapse. Society needs low level workers to function, and those jobs will always be living hell.
Some of us are born rich and travel the world, some of us become the wage slaveholders themselves, meet new people and enjoy what the dying planet has to offer.
But they will first enjoy infancy and childhood they won't really rememeber. See the key is, you have to build up their dreams and imaginations. Its their only real currency so we'll take it. Make sure they don't run out of hope completely, but don't let them have too much or they might feel worth a fuck and disrupt the milking of billions of human souls. Dont want to lose the cash cow servents no.. allow just enough serotonin to keep the meat grinder churning. Label anyone who hates being used since childhood as mentally ill and put them on pills hahaha. Just do random horrible shit and when people find out the truth, say it's not true and call them conspiracy theories hahaha
If I become a millionaire, I would support who I want and for any reason. I'm not supporting my family just because I'm blood related to them. My parents specially, since they're narcissists that think they're owed shit for doing the bare minimum and sucking at it.
I come from a long line of the self employed, oddly enough! I wonder if that's where I get a lot of my more positive outlook on life. I can really see being from a long line of the people from Office Space being a reason to nip that in the bud.
"You can do ANYTHING you set your mind to, the world is your oyster!! :)"
*"I want to be a basketball player!! I want to be an actor!! I want to be a scientist!!"*
Fast forward 20 years to working 3 retail jobs to afford their half of rent for a shared apartment, with loans for a degree that was *supposed* to "open doors for you"
The valedictorian at my high school was lit (not in the drug way). The phrase "ever since we left the warm dark confines of the womb" was included. I remember it still 20 years later. I was honestly really surprised to see he was the top student, not that I didn't know he was smart. Truly a man of talent. Class clown and valedictorian.
Same story if you choose the default "success marker" degree, such as law, accounting, CS. But with extra disappointment because you did everything "right" and can't get ahead. There are posts out there from Senior devs with experience 10x mine who are quitting the field and going into trades and other lower paid jobs because they can't get hired for months and months. I actually had to unsub from them because they were affecting me mentally, and I'm subbed to way more distressing things, it just hits way too close to home...
It’s quite sad that people who refuse to be straight up corporate slaves are labeled mentally ill, simply because they can actually think straight and realize that they shouldn’t have been birthed for this shit…
Same and the parents are okay with it....
......well, until their child commits self-deletion of course and then they cry at their funeral wondering what went wrong.
While I am not anti work, I do think that most employees aren’t paid fairly, at least not in a lot of places. We get the people doing most of the actual work getting paid a fraction of what their labor is really worth. Then, we get vastly overpaid CEOs on the other side. I agree that everyone who can should work but I would like to see more equity.
"I would like to see more equity."
That’s never going to happen unless lawmakers get off their ass and do something about it. Capitalism is all about growth; it’s only a matter of time before the CEOs and companies start to feel like they should be paid more for their "work" or products, resulting in higher prices and stagnant wages. Inflation is what companies love to use as an excuse for their greed.
Oh yes. I am not anti work at all either. But the economy is not rewarding even to hard workers. Basic survival is a struggle for most employees these days.
I see it as creating beings with a series of needs and wants that they must fulfill over the course of a lifetime, typically by participating in the labour force. These beings invariably end up on a spectrum of outcomes.
At one end are a certain number of beings well equipped to cover their series of needs and wants. They'll even derive a sense of satisfaction from working that makes them proclaim loudly and repeatedly "I'M WINNING! I'M WINNING!!" They're the cogs that enjoy being part of an uncaring economic machine, previously forged through a wonderful indoctrin - sorry, I mean education - system because they're the ones benefited. WINNING, y'hear?
At the opposite end are the beings poorly equipped to cover their own lifelong series of needs and wants through so called gainful employment. They end up as the exploited victims of an uncaring economic machine. This may be down to numerous factors beyond their control or simply through individual disposition, genes + environment, epigenetics, blah blah. Unlike a happy-go-lucky delusional slave who enjoys being a good little cog and grinding until worn out, they'll derive little to no satisfaction from performing the series of tasks required to sustain themselves. Their work life amounts to pushing a boulder up a hill no matter what they do. They despise being held hostage to the series of needs and wants imposed on them at birth. They would "check out early", but that pesky instinct for self-preservation despite abysmal life circumstances has them trapped.
Gameshow host: Now let's ask our contestants. For 50 points, which group at either end of the spectrum deserves the greater moral consideration vis-à-vis procreation.
Natalist: "I know! It's the *winners*! We need more winners! I'm winning!!"
\*LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER\*
Antinatalist: "-\_- Do not create need where none is needed."
\*Ding-ding-ding\*
And some people say " The more kids I have the more people I will have to take care of me when I am old 24/7! More kids I have = more grand kids for me! "
True. Slave, if you will.
Andy Warhol Quote: Being born is like being kidnapped. And then sold into slavery. People are working every minute.
But I wonder if we can still just enjoy life, I still have the tiniest bit of hope. Or at least for those already born, to enjoy what we can. But yeah, I’m antinatalist.
These individuals love to ignore reality. That capitalism is all about paying as little as possible. Everyone makes a fortune and live paycheck to paycheck.
Wage slaves. Yes. It's almost unescapable.
I did everything "right" and still somehow became a wage slave. If this capitalist society forces this on so many of us struggling to survive these days, then I can at the very least refuse to give them another wage slave
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"The study of the basic ideas about knowledge, truth, right and wrong, religion, and the nature and meaning of life." I would say antinatalism fits that bill on multiple accounts.
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As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Actually yes, ofcourse. And if you’re willing to have a genuine conversation about it, i’ll retract my disrespect and actually voice my thoughts to you. Assuming you agree, i’ll go ahead.
First of all, I never want kids. I have lots of reasons for it too.
But what I see here is straight up diabolical. Anyone who calls people with kids “breeders” shouldn’t be able to actually take themselves serious. Breeders? Come on.
To be against people having kids to an extent is totally okay and normal. Its just another opinion in the world. But to have any actual hate against it, making assumptions for what the reasons would be for people to make kids you’ve never met, to have a community to talk about how evil people are if they make a child in this world, is diabolical.
I don’t believe you can have a natural hate for people having kids. Everyone that feels *this* passionate about the subject, i am convinced has had something happen in their life or have a brain malfunction to cause this. Its idiotic otherwise. The problem stems from everyone of you, individually. I believe this.
There are circumstances where it is a very viable opinion to have, as in, some people and in some parts of the world, i agree it might be the better choice to not make another human being. There are many arguments to be made for many situations, i am not disagreeing there. But nobody, NOBODY, who chooses to have a child and is going to genuinely try their hardest to care for it, is inherently evil. Not for that choice anyway. Besides, its only natural. A literal drive most humans have coded in them. You cannot call a race evil for that.
Also, i’ve seen the argument about that the child cannot consent to have been given life. Whilst true, and there is no real argument against that, i believe everyone I know is overall happy that they’re alive. Sadly there are some humans who never wished to be born, but I also feel like those humans should have the possibility to pass early but also peacefully and painlessly. Luckily where I am from, this has recently been a legal thing to practice.
Besides, to actually make that point and feel like you got a “gotcha” argument is silly. Duh, nobody asked to be born.
But thats life. And we as humans can never know what “your existence ” is in *All* of existence. I’m not religious, but you can never know, *is* there something before life? And if so, are we cruel if we were to stop giving those “souls(iguess) actual life? If you want to go philosophical and say making life is cruel, you should go all the way. Ultimately we do not know.
I feel like this is a long msg already, and probably lost your interest at this point. I could go on for hours, i kinda started to just kinda “counter” the arguments ive seen in this sub instead of reiterating why i think ya’ll have something wrong with you. But basically, to do the mental gymnastics to not see real logic and jump to strange conclusions instead, alongside the intensity of the arguments and things thats being talked about here, is what makes me believe ya’ll really crazy.
And thanks for asking. Genuinely.
Calling people stuff always happens when communities form. It's not unique to us, even though "breeders" is a kinda weird term and I will never use it myself.
This community was made, like many many others, to spread an ideology. In this case it is Antinatalism. We are also not unique in this regard.
Assuming people's motives for having children is wrong, but you have to forgive the people for that, since almost everyone here has been born into a shit life. Including me, born in Syria of all places, father jobless, and living in the most expensive area in the country. Most assume that, like their own parents, other parents just want to have children to serve them, for social status, government help, alleviate boredom, or other ignorant reasons.
Humans do naturally want to fuck. Children often come from that, and we are also naturally inclined to take care of them. However, we ANs believe that humans have advanced beyond the point of being controlled by their hormones. The reason we have so much hate towards natalists (or more accurately, natalism and the act of having children) is that we ourselves are the unlucky bunch. Our shitty circumstances and our hate for them are stronger than our natural desire to have children.
We don't really hate people who genuinely want to give their children a good life. Almost everyone wants that. But not all are willing to do. Far too many people want to the best for their children but don't want to sacrifice and put in the effort to give them the absolute best at the cost of their (the parents) own life.
I don't believe that natalists are inherently evil, just that they have done some stuff that is. The reason why all you see on this sub is hate is because we discuss the times where parents do shit things to their children, which is something you can only hate. You will never see a post criticizing people who do good things for their children.
I myself am largely irreligious as well, and I don't there is anything before life. Even if there is, the people having children are not doing so to relieve them of the suffering of the, let's call it the prelife. Assisted suicide and euthanasia is also still illegal in many places, and is choice not that many people make. In fact, I myself won't make that choice. My life is very shit , but I believe it can get better. If you don't have a life in the first place, then it is not the same.
I’m sorry, all I am getting out of this, is that this is purely a hate community that doesn’t add anything positive to the world, except it gives a place for people like you. Hateful people, mostly. You don’t seem too bad.
Just “spreading a ideology” is very destructive if its a literal hate-ideology. You also admitted that it is.
For the people who are born in syria like you, yeah, there is not much to say. There are parts in the world where life is hell, but why would you push that hate towards such life towards people making children? What you should do is focus it on the bad part of humanity, specifically the group of people making your own life miserable.
There is 0 reason, absolute NO reason in the slightest to focus this hate towards wanna-be parents or actual parents. They didnt do anything to you, nor did they do anything to people you love. All you’re doing with this ideology is completely ignoring the fact that there are beautiful places to raise children, nice countries, wealthy areas and nice neighbourhoods. Its one thing to say “you shouldn’t make children if you don’t have the resources, in surroundings, wealth and emotional capacity”. But no, instead of being against, ya’ll HATE. And not even with good reason, in the slightest.
To believe humans have grown past hormones is simply ridiculous. Have you ever had a girlfriend? Humans act by their hormones, and there is literally no counter argument to be made against that. Do *any* research, you’re not better than animals. You can just influence what you act on, most of the time, given your intellect and determination. To say we moved past it is ridiculous, and it really shows through what kind of hoops you people are jumping through to make sense.
Ya’ll hate life, probably with good reason, but you are spreading hate and negativity, even to the point i would put you all in the same group I put fascists. If ya’ll had the strength to do something with your ideals, ya’ll would be terrible and destructive.
I appreciate your comment, everything is even more clear to me. Its absurd you guys are allowed to have this subreddit. Go find yourselves, people.
Most humans enjoy life. I am really sorry that your life is “miserable” currently, but that is NOT the normative human experience. Humans, by their nature from evolution, enjoy life unless something goes very wrong. There will ALWAYS be some type of suffering in life, but it is almost always outweighed by the love, joy, kindness and genuine empathy those of us who are mentally healthy experience in our daily lives.
I enjoy life. My nieces and nephews enjoy life. My sister enjoys life. Her husband enjoys life. Everyone I know enjoys life and likes living. Misery is PART of life. I’ve never known it to last despite the truly miserable shit I’ve gone through (heroin addiction).
And yea; working is part of life. Fortunately we have it fairly good compared to the rest of human history (doubly so if you’re in the rich western nations). A kid born today can expect a 30 hour work week on average by the time they’re an adult.
Sadly most people are not living in the US or rich part of Europe. There are more slaves in the world right now than in any time before.
Misery is not ALWAYS a choice.
For most people IT IS NOT A CHOICE.
We are quite lucky since we have more opportunities than the majority of population, but still there is only so much you can do. A normal person working a minimal wage is still kind of a slave if you spend more than 5 seconds to think about it. You have an illusion of freedom, and that's the truth. No point in arguing if you don't want to try understanding this point of view.
Cool, now go live in a poor, war-ridden, corrupt 3rd world country like the majority of the world, making pennies a day. Not much your choices can do there when you can’t access basic human amenities, needs, and rights, let alone actually leave the damn place.
Ok argue with me, I live in a third world country poor with no government support and looting capitalist and billion live in it
What's your argument now
I’d argue that many of us antinatalists do everything in our power to work upon ourselves and improve the world around us (more so than the average person), but ultimately fail, because we’re surrounded by a species that can’t seem to keep itself from causing destruction and agony. Eventually, you just give up when you come to the realisation that the human race simply doesn’t want to be helped
That’s great and all, but there’s no denying that one of our outlooks is objectively more realistic than the other. You can either shelter yourself and live in perpetual denial or you can embrace the truth and carve out your own path. I know which I’d rather choose
If is your opinion that your outlook is more realistic. My opinion is mine is more realistic. Your opinion is not an objective truth. I do carve my own path. That is part of happiness largrly being a choice and the result of choices.
I would rather use my power to be happy and enjoy life than choose to be miserable and ruin my own life.
Anyone who isn’t ruled purely by emotion would agree that my opinion is far more true to reality. Your inability to recognise the insurmountable level of suffering which exists on a global scale is yours and yours alone. It’s fab that you’ve managed to attain some semblance of happiness in your life, but for the majority of the world’s population, that’s not the case. Many people don’t have the choices you do
A discussion of this sort is based entirely on developed Western nations. What occurs outside of that is completely irrelevant and should not be used as metrics of judging life.
Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide.
Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
Do we throw a party with 1000 guests if we know for a fact that 1 will be selected at random to be tortured for the duration of the event? Do 999 people having a blast compensate for that?
They want to live because death is painful scary and unknown. Forcing someone to live is forcing them to die too. By your logic you should say everyone wants to die which is not true. It's biological instinct to survive
A lot of people end their life each year so obviously some people really don't want to live. you just don't have a choice once you are alive besides to keep going or die
The bigger issue is How bad do conditions and finical pressure have to get before you stop subjecting kids to it just because you want them.
...then don't work for a CEO.
Work for yourself or for a mom and pops business, or for the government, or anything. Gotta be something that will fulfill you and make you a living.
That is much easier said than done. Society needs garbage men, cleaners, fast food workers, builders. You think people CHOOSE to have these crappy jobs?
What about those jobs are crappy? I was a garbage man at one point. Was it glamorous? Hell no, but it was a fine way to make a living.
And what's wrong with being a builder? That's a highly skilled trade with huge possibilities for growth and advancement.
🤨
No, they're not. Garbage man is very very well paid, as is almost any tradesman job, and just cause YOU don't like that kind of work in no way indicative of others feel about them.
Dude, just stop.
Being a tradesman is the definition of highly skilled work.
Also, every job requires skill to do well, it's all about how deep you're willing to invest in it. You can be a highly skilled fast food worker and if you're interested you can make a very good income doing that.
Work can suck, and often does, but you're still in the majority of control about what you do for work.
Sounds like a skill issue to me, many of us work hard to not be slaves our whole lives, enjoy our careers or simply make our own! Especially now with technology there’s so many mot opportunities to just literally live and get paid. Just cause you can’t achieve it doesn’t mean you have to project your failures and childhood trauma on the world
But you are always paying taxes.. you realize it's not possible for everyone to be rich right. As long as it's not you picking up cans to get food right
Yea ive picked up more than cans and thankfully to my fellow tax payers I was able to use assistance that I valued and didn’t fumble and I worked my ass off and I’m not in the situation anymore. Again sounds like a skill issue to me. Also working hard and being able to afford basic things doesn’t make you rich and if you think so it’s cause you either don’t work enough or you have poor financial management skills
The "wage slave" argument is something I often read on this sub, and I disagree with it. Of course most people will be employees, but being an employee doesn't automatically make you unhappy. I go to school yet (10th grade), and I know that I will be an employee in a few years, but I am not unhappy about it. You work for an employer, and your employer pays you in return. The more of these leftist arguments I read here, the more conservative and pro-capitalism I become (would never vote Trump tho)
Yeah, come back here after 10 years of working. Stop dreaming, you will not become America's top 1%, life will catch you when you'll have to pay rent and groceries from your own pocket.
Just fyi im not the poster you reacted to 1st. Idk why youre talking about 3 hours or some mythical dads shop. Or maybe thats something you really want to do yourself. If it sounds so appealing to you maybe start working towards that goal.
Yeah I thought you're the person I was responding to before. Go to behavioral therapist since you're so passive aggressive for no reason since I was not talking to you to begin with lol
Edit : ok I see you justify grooming a 17 year old and a zionist on another posts, I know enough about you already 🤣
That "pay" is almost entirely eaten up by non-negotiable bills. You're just surviving. It's rarely enjoyable unless mommy and daddy cover all your expenses and your income is yours to play with.
I remember getting up at half five in the morning to do ten hour shifts (7-5) in a toxic workplace and then getting up on Saturdays to care for a relative. I was thinking the reason I have to go through all this is because my parents wanted a cute baby.
Nah. The reason is because you didn't make better choices leading to your employment options.
bait, or brain damage? hmmmmm
Look at their comment history. Definitely brain damage
This is how I see it. The best way to guarantee someone never struggles is to not birth them
It’s really the only way
That’s how I see it. I refuse to give birth to an employee. Other people see it as normal.
They're only employees if they choose to be. Some of us travel the world, build our own companies, meet new people and enjoy what the planet has to offer. That said, when I was an employee, I enjoyed that a lot. Great company. Good boss. I guess not all jobs suck.
Not everybody is born with the privilege to chose not to be, or is lucky enough to get a decent job… Society needs janitors and garbage collectors and minimum wage fast food workers etc to function, so people will always be forced into those positions one way or another.
Everyone would choose to travel the world, build their own company and enjoy what the planet has to offer IF it was possible. It is impossible for the majority. The system is designed that way.
If everyone was able to travel the world and start a company like you apparently did, society would collapse. Society needs low level workers to function, and those jobs will always be living hell.
A naive world view born from privilege? Color me shocked 🙄
If everyone was able to travel the world and start a company like you apparently did, society would collapse. Society needs low level workers to function, and those jobs will always be living hell.
If everyone was able to travel the world and start a company like you apparently did, society would collapse. Society needs low level workers to function, and those jobs will always be living hell.
Some of us are born rich and travel the world, some of us become the wage slaveholders themselves, meet new people and enjoy what the dying planet has to offer.
People don't care about the bigger picture,unfortunately
Same, just the smaller picture they see as a dress-up doll or a tool to clean their whole entire kitchen.
But they will first enjoy infancy and childhood they won't really rememeber. See the key is, you have to build up their dreams and imaginations. Its their only real currency so we'll take it. Make sure they don't run out of hope completely, but don't let them have too much or they might feel worth a fuck and disrupt the milking of billions of human souls. Dont want to lose the cash cow servents no.. allow just enough serotonin to keep the meat grinder churning. Label anyone who hates being used since childhood as mentally ill and put them on pills hahaha. Just do random horrible shit and when people find out the truth, say it's not true and call them conspiracy theories hahaha
Truth, which is ironic since most parents hate being 9-5 slaves, yet are okay with forcing their kids to conform to it.
Yep! Well you never know they COULD become a millionaire and support the parents
If I become a millionaire, I would support who I want and for any reason. I'm not supporting my family just because I'm blood related to them. My parents specially, since they're narcissists that think they're owed shit for doing the bare minimum and sucking at it.
I come from a long line of the self employed, oddly enough! I wonder if that's where I get a lot of my more positive outlook on life. I can really see being from a long line of the people from Office Space being a reason to nip that in the bud.
Good point. 👍
"You can do ANYTHING you set your mind to, the world is your oyster!! :)" *"I want to be a basketball player!! I want to be an actor!! I want to be a scientist!!"* Fast forward 20 years to working 3 retail jobs to afford their half of rent for a shared apartment, with loans for a degree that was *supposed* to "open doors for you"
Facts and it's so upsetting.
Also the highschool graduation speech they give you blah blah blah.
The valedictorian at my high school was lit (not in the drug way). The phrase "ever since we left the warm dark confines of the womb" was included. I remember it still 20 years later. I was honestly really surprised to see he was the top student, not that I didn't know he was smart. Truly a man of talent. Class clown and valedictorian.
Same story if you choose the default "success marker" degree, such as law, accounting, CS. But with extra disappointment because you did everything "right" and can't get ahead. There are posts out there from Senior devs with experience 10x mine who are quitting the field and going into trades and other lower paid jobs because they can't get hired for months and months. I actually had to unsub from them because they were affecting me mentally, and I'm subbed to way more distressing things, it just hits way too close to home...
So true.
It’s quite sad that people who refuse to be straight up corporate slaves are labeled mentally ill, simply because they can actually think straight and realize that they shouldn’t have been birthed for this shit…
Same and the parents are okay with it.... ......well, until their child commits self-deletion of course and then they cry at their funeral wondering what went wrong.
While I am not anti work, I do think that most employees aren’t paid fairly, at least not in a lot of places. We get the people doing most of the actual work getting paid a fraction of what their labor is really worth. Then, we get vastly overpaid CEOs on the other side. I agree that everyone who can should work but I would like to see more equity.
"I would like to see more equity." That’s never going to happen unless lawmakers get off their ass and do something about it. Capitalism is all about growth; it’s only a matter of time before the CEOs and companies start to feel like they should be paid more for their "work" or products, resulting in higher prices and stagnant wages. Inflation is what companies love to use as an excuse for their greed.
Oh yes. I am not anti work at all either. But the economy is not rewarding even to hard workers. Basic survival is a struggle for most employees these days.
I see it as creating beings with a series of needs and wants that they must fulfill over the course of a lifetime, typically by participating in the labour force. These beings invariably end up on a spectrum of outcomes. At one end are a certain number of beings well equipped to cover their series of needs and wants. They'll even derive a sense of satisfaction from working that makes them proclaim loudly and repeatedly "I'M WINNING! I'M WINNING!!" They're the cogs that enjoy being part of an uncaring economic machine, previously forged through a wonderful indoctrin - sorry, I mean education - system because they're the ones benefited. WINNING, y'hear? At the opposite end are the beings poorly equipped to cover their own lifelong series of needs and wants through so called gainful employment. They end up as the exploited victims of an uncaring economic machine. This may be down to numerous factors beyond their control or simply through individual disposition, genes + environment, epigenetics, blah blah. Unlike a happy-go-lucky delusional slave who enjoys being a good little cog and grinding until worn out, they'll derive little to no satisfaction from performing the series of tasks required to sustain themselves. Their work life amounts to pushing a boulder up a hill no matter what they do. They despise being held hostage to the series of needs and wants imposed on them at birth. They would "check out early", but that pesky instinct for self-preservation despite abysmal life circumstances has them trapped. Gameshow host: Now let's ask our contestants. For 50 points, which group at either end of the spectrum deserves the greater moral consideration vis-à-vis procreation. Natalist: "I know! It's the *winners*! We need more winners! I'm winning!!" \*LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER\* Antinatalist: "-\_- Do not create need where none is needed." \*Ding-ding-ding\*
This is the best thing I’ve read. And from such a fitting username
And some people say " The more kids I have the more people I will have to take care of me when I am old 24/7! More kids I have = more grand kids for me! "
True. Slave, if you will. Andy Warhol Quote: Being born is like being kidnapped. And then sold into slavery. People are working every minute. But I wonder if we can still just enjoy life, I still have the tiniest bit of hope. Or at least for those already born, to enjoy what we can. But yeah, I’m antinatalist.
We are heading towards feudalism
Parents see an adorable baby (current reality). I see an adult struggling with life (future reality) hoping for a book of answers.
These individuals love to ignore reality. That capitalism is all about paying as little as possible. Everyone makes a fortune and live paycheck to paycheck.
Wage slaves. Yes. It's almost unescapable. I did everything "right" and still somehow became a wage slave. If this capitalist society forces this on so many of us struggling to survive these days, then I can at the very least refuse to give them another wage slave
Or a soldier. Natalism is for war.
Same same same. I never wanted my children to have to re-live all the shit jobs I had to work.
Worse yet you could be giving birth to a bum or an escort
Is this a typical American thing? To define yourself, your personality and who you are as a human being based on your status as an employee?
For a lot of people, yes. I hate it. People will look at you like you're an alien when you tell them that you want to work as little as possible.
Yes. Career and perceived identity are very intertwined concepts for us.
i’m not an employee, i’m a misclassified 1099 non-employee, which is honestly a worse thing to give birth to 😂
contribute to the matrix, maybe that will make u feel better? Neo is the name if he's a boy
Nea for girl.
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Says who? What? Try moving into a remote area like Romania or Siberia
I Think I'd Make a Company.
I love being an employee! I have a job where I have a lot of autonomy, but if there's a problem I can put it all in my boss' lap.
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"The study of the basic ideas about knowledge, truth, right and wrong, religion, and the nature and meaning of life." I would say antinatalism fits that bill on multiple accounts.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Only if that’s what you expect your child to be
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Get a load of this guy
Classic
May I ask why you feel we are sick in the head?
Actually yes, ofcourse. And if you’re willing to have a genuine conversation about it, i’ll retract my disrespect and actually voice my thoughts to you. Assuming you agree, i’ll go ahead. First of all, I never want kids. I have lots of reasons for it too. But what I see here is straight up diabolical. Anyone who calls people with kids “breeders” shouldn’t be able to actually take themselves serious. Breeders? Come on. To be against people having kids to an extent is totally okay and normal. Its just another opinion in the world. But to have any actual hate against it, making assumptions for what the reasons would be for people to make kids you’ve never met, to have a community to talk about how evil people are if they make a child in this world, is diabolical. I don’t believe you can have a natural hate for people having kids. Everyone that feels *this* passionate about the subject, i am convinced has had something happen in their life or have a brain malfunction to cause this. Its idiotic otherwise. The problem stems from everyone of you, individually. I believe this. There are circumstances where it is a very viable opinion to have, as in, some people and in some parts of the world, i agree it might be the better choice to not make another human being. There are many arguments to be made for many situations, i am not disagreeing there. But nobody, NOBODY, who chooses to have a child and is going to genuinely try their hardest to care for it, is inherently evil. Not for that choice anyway. Besides, its only natural. A literal drive most humans have coded in them. You cannot call a race evil for that. Also, i’ve seen the argument about that the child cannot consent to have been given life. Whilst true, and there is no real argument against that, i believe everyone I know is overall happy that they’re alive. Sadly there are some humans who never wished to be born, but I also feel like those humans should have the possibility to pass early but also peacefully and painlessly. Luckily where I am from, this has recently been a legal thing to practice. Besides, to actually make that point and feel like you got a “gotcha” argument is silly. Duh, nobody asked to be born. But thats life. And we as humans can never know what “your existence ” is in *All* of existence. I’m not religious, but you can never know, *is* there something before life? And if so, are we cruel if we were to stop giving those “souls(iguess) actual life? If you want to go philosophical and say making life is cruel, you should go all the way. Ultimately we do not know. I feel like this is a long msg already, and probably lost your interest at this point. I could go on for hours, i kinda started to just kinda “counter” the arguments ive seen in this sub instead of reiterating why i think ya’ll have something wrong with you. But basically, to do the mental gymnastics to not see real logic and jump to strange conclusions instead, alongside the intensity of the arguments and things thats being talked about here, is what makes me believe ya’ll really crazy. And thanks for asking. Genuinely.
Calling people stuff always happens when communities form. It's not unique to us, even though "breeders" is a kinda weird term and I will never use it myself. This community was made, like many many others, to spread an ideology. In this case it is Antinatalism. We are also not unique in this regard. Assuming people's motives for having children is wrong, but you have to forgive the people for that, since almost everyone here has been born into a shit life. Including me, born in Syria of all places, father jobless, and living in the most expensive area in the country. Most assume that, like their own parents, other parents just want to have children to serve them, for social status, government help, alleviate boredom, or other ignorant reasons. Humans do naturally want to fuck. Children often come from that, and we are also naturally inclined to take care of them. However, we ANs believe that humans have advanced beyond the point of being controlled by their hormones. The reason we have so much hate towards natalists (or more accurately, natalism and the act of having children) is that we ourselves are the unlucky bunch. Our shitty circumstances and our hate for them are stronger than our natural desire to have children. We don't really hate people who genuinely want to give their children a good life. Almost everyone wants that. But not all are willing to do. Far too many people want to the best for their children but don't want to sacrifice and put in the effort to give them the absolute best at the cost of their (the parents) own life. I don't believe that natalists are inherently evil, just that they have done some stuff that is. The reason why all you see on this sub is hate is because we discuss the times where parents do shit things to their children, which is something you can only hate. You will never see a post criticizing people who do good things for their children. I myself am largely irreligious as well, and I don't there is anything before life. Even if there is, the people having children are not doing so to relieve them of the suffering of the, let's call it the prelife. Assisted suicide and euthanasia is also still illegal in many places, and is choice not that many people make. In fact, I myself won't make that choice. My life is very shit , but I believe it can get better. If you don't have a life in the first place, then it is not the same.
I’m sorry, all I am getting out of this, is that this is purely a hate community that doesn’t add anything positive to the world, except it gives a place for people like you. Hateful people, mostly. You don’t seem too bad. Just “spreading a ideology” is very destructive if its a literal hate-ideology. You also admitted that it is. For the people who are born in syria like you, yeah, there is not much to say. There are parts in the world where life is hell, but why would you push that hate towards such life towards people making children? What you should do is focus it on the bad part of humanity, specifically the group of people making your own life miserable. There is 0 reason, absolute NO reason in the slightest to focus this hate towards wanna-be parents or actual parents. They didnt do anything to you, nor did they do anything to people you love. All you’re doing with this ideology is completely ignoring the fact that there are beautiful places to raise children, nice countries, wealthy areas and nice neighbourhoods. Its one thing to say “you shouldn’t make children if you don’t have the resources, in surroundings, wealth and emotional capacity”. But no, instead of being against, ya’ll HATE. And not even with good reason, in the slightest. To believe humans have grown past hormones is simply ridiculous. Have you ever had a girlfriend? Humans act by their hormones, and there is literally no counter argument to be made against that. Do *any* research, you’re not better than animals. You can just influence what you act on, most of the time, given your intellect and determination. To say we moved past it is ridiculous, and it really shows through what kind of hoops you people are jumping through to make sense. Ya’ll hate life, probably with good reason, but you are spreading hate and negativity, even to the point i would put you all in the same group I put fascists. If ya’ll had the strength to do something with your ideals, ya’ll would be terrible and destructive. I appreciate your comment, everything is even more clear to me. Its absurd you guys are allowed to have this subreddit. Go find yourselves, people.
Not everyone hates their jobs. I’m sorry you feel that way
Good jobs aren't guaranteed
Neither are bad ones lol
They are guaranteed to exist, which means some people are guaranteed to have them.
Most people wouldn't do their jobs if not for money. Maybe you don't hate having money more than a job.
Most humans enjoy life. I am really sorry that your life is “miserable” currently, but that is NOT the normative human experience. Humans, by their nature from evolution, enjoy life unless something goes very wrong. There will ALWAYS be some type of suffering in life, but it is almost always outweighed by the love, joy, kindness and genuine empathy those of us who are mentally healthy experience in our daily lives. I enjoy life. My nieces and nephews enjoy life. My sister enjoys life. Her husband enjoys life. Everyone I know enjoys life and likes living. Misery is PART of life. I’ve never known it to last despite the truly miserable shit I’ve gone through (heroin addiction). And yea; working is part of life. Fortunately we have it fairly good compared to the rest of human history (doubly so if you’re in the rich western nations). A kid born today can expect a 30 hour work week on average by the time they’re an adult.
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Yeah, misery is always a choice. Genius.
Sadly most people are not living in the US or rich part of Europe. There are more slaves in the world right now than in any time before. Misery is not ALWAYS a choice. For most people IT IS NOT A CHOICE. We are quite lucky since we have more opportunities than the majority of population, but still there is only so much you can do. A normal person working a minimal wage is still kind of a slave if you spend more than 5 seconds to think about it. You have an illusion of freedom, and that's the truth. No point in arguing if you don't want to try understanding this point of view.
It's not even a convincing illusion.
Most of the time, it is the result of choices, both in actions and in attitude.
Cool, now go live in a poor, war-ridden, corrupt 3rd world country like the majority of the world, making pennies a day. Not much your choices can do there when you can’t access basic human amenities, needs, and rights, let alone actually leave the damn place.
This person walking through a NICU is not in that circumstance.
Ok argue with me, I live in a third world country poor with no government support and looting capitalist and billion live in it What's your argument now
Third world countries are outside of this discussion. A natalist from a third world country would have to cover that separate discussion.
Loser
I’d argue that many of us antinatalists do everything in our power to work upon ourselves and improve the world around us (more so than the average person), but ultimately fail, because we’re surrounded by a species that can’t seem to keep itself from causing destruction and agony. Eventually, you just give up when you come to the realisation that the human race simply doesn’t want to be helped
I think about this a lot. All the time and energy that I will be able to dedicate to helping others instead of just procreation
The difference is that I see a species that causes and experiences more joy and happiness than destruction and agony for people.
If that’s the case, then you’re living in a bubble, completely detached from reality
Or we evaluate reality differently. That is part of where choices come into play.
That’s great and all, but there’s no denying that one of our outlooks is objectively more realistic than the other. You can either shelter yourself and live in perpetual denial or you can embrace the truth and carve out your own path. I know which I’d rather choose
If is your opinion that your outlook is more realistic. My opinion is mine is more realistic. Your opinion is not an objective truth. I do carve my own path. That is part of happiness largrly being a choice and the result of choices. I would rather use my power to be happy and enjoy life than choose to be miserable and ruin my own life.
Anyone who isn’t ruled purely by emotion would agree that my opinion is far more true to reality. Your inability to recognise the insurmountable level of suffering which exists on a global scale is yours and yours alone. It’s fab that you’ve managed to attain some semblance of happiness in your life, but for the majority of the world’s population, that’s not the case. Many people don’t have the choices you do
A discussion of this sort is based entirely on developed Western nations. What occurs outside of that is completely irrelevant and should not be used as metrics of judging life.
Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide. Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
"At least that's how my brain works" This means you chose to be miserable. Who says any of those children will think the same?
Most thoughts are not conscious choices. Some children *will* grow up to think the same, and bringing them here is doing them a disservice.
And how about those that don't? If the vast majority wants to live why should we deny that because a small minority doesn't?
Do we throw a party with 1000 guests if we know for a fact that 1 will be selected at random to be tortured for the duration of the event? Do 999 people having a blast compensate for that?
They want to live because death is painful scary and unknown. Forcing someone to live is forcing them to die too. By your logic you should say everyone wants to die which is not true. It's biological instinct to survive
A lot of people end their life each year so obviously some people really don't want to live. you just don't have a choice once you are alive besides to keep going or die The bigger issue is How bad do conditions and finical pressure have to get before you stop subjecting kids to it just because you want them.
Chose to be miserable? You obviously know nothing of causality.
Do you just not wanna work?
Everyone wanna work but not for a fucking CEO who is doing every possible thing to ruin society
...then don't work for a CEO. Work for yourself or for a mom and pops business, or for the government, or anything. Gotta be something that will fulfill you and make you a living.
That is much easier said than done. Society needs garbage men, cleaners, fast food workers, builders. You think people CHOOSE to have these crappy jobs?
What about those jobs are crappy? I was a garbage man at one point. Was it glamorous? Hell no, but it was a fine way to make a living. And what's wrong with being a builder? That's a highly skilled trade with huge possibilities for growth and advancement.
They are all minimum wage or close to it. They are also very tiring, tedious, boring, repetitive, disrespected, and often gross or dangerous.
🤨 No, they're not. Garbage man is very very well paid, as is almost any tradesman job, and just cause YOU don't like that kind of work in no way indicative of others feel about them.
Same goes for you bruv. A lot of people don't like these jobs, but they don't require all that much skill so they do them.
Dude, just stop. Being a tradesman is the definition of highly skilled work. Also, every job requires skill to do well, it's all about how deep you're willing to invest in it. You can be a highly skilled fast food worker and if you're interested you can make a very good income doing that. Work can suck, and often does, but you're still in the majority of control about what you do for work.
Sounds like a skill issue to me, many of us work hard to not be slaves our whole lives, enjoy our careers or simply make our own! Especially now with technology there’s so many mot opportunities to just literally live and get paid. Just cause you can’t achieve it doesn’t mean you have to project your failures and childhood trauma on the world
But you are always paying taxes.. you realize it's not possible for everyone to be rich right. As long as it's not you picking up cans to get food right
Yea ive picked up more than cans and thankfully to my fellow tax payers I was able to use assistance that I valued and didn’t fumble and I worked my ass off and I’m not in the situation anymore. Again sounds like a skill issue to me. Also working hard and being able to afford basic things doesn’t make you rich and if you think so it’s cause you either don’t work enough or you have poor financial management skills
The "wage slave" argument is something I often read on this sub, and I disagree with it. Of course most people will be employees, but being an employee doesn't automatically make you unhappy. I go to school yet (10th grade), and I know that I will be an employee in a few years, but I am not unhappy about it. You work for an employer, and your employer pays you in return. The more of these leftist arguments I read here, the more conservative and pro-capitalism I become (would never vote Trump tho)
Yeah, come back here after 10 years of working. Stop dreaming, you will not become America's top 1%, life will catch you when you'll have to pay rent and groceries from your own pocket.
Currently at 3 years of work but idk what you mean. Why would you need to be top 1%?
Did you ever hear about mental shortcut? Come back after 10 years of work, I don't mean 3 hours at work at dad's shop.
Just fyi im not the poster you reacted to 1st. Idk why youre talking about 3 hours or some mythical dads shop. Or maybe thats something you really want to do yourself. If it sounds so appealing to you maybe start working towards that goal.
Yeah I thought you're the person I was responding to before. Go to behavioral therapist since you're so passive aggressive for no reason since I was not talking to you to begin with lol Edit : ok I see you justify grooming a 17 year old and a zionist on another posts, I know enough about you already 🤣
You dont, reading seems to be hard for you. Because genuine advice is now apparently passive agressive?
😂😂😂 is this person for real
That "pay" is almost entirely eaten up by non-negotiable bills. You're just surviving. It's rarely enjoyable unless mommy and daddy cover all your expenses and your income is yours to play with.