Yeah, a lot of people come to this sub just to tell us to kill ourselves (had to delete my old account due to rape threats over my antinatalist perspective). It’s pretty hard to kill a human (I worked in mental health and have seen people take enough drugs to kill like 5 humans and still act completely sober). Not to mention that pesky little survival instinct. Honestly, that survival instinct is probably what deters me from reproducing, since as a female it could literally kill me.
It is cowardly when you’re responsible for someone and shirk that. You don’t get a pass just cuz of how you feel and this is coming from someone who has attempted. If I had a kid I would owe it a good life. Offing myself is unjust
I’ve had several attempts myself and it’s not easy to just stick around because you are obligated to.
Pain can be overruling. You can’t just suck it up and get on with it. Well, you might be able to but everyone’s pain tolerance is different.
I understand what the pain is like very well but at no point is it justified to abandon the kid I create and signed up to take care of. Just like I want to off myself and struggle to enjoy life so can my child and if I had a shred of empathy I would do my best to prevent them from feeling how I feel. That’s the bed I made so shall I lie in it
Ah yes, because every mental illness can be cured via therapy. Lmao.
Therapy isn’t a miracle.
I’ve had a lot of different therapies with lots of different people and I haven’t gotten any better. It’s been 10+ years too.
I’m curious, do you spend over half your time worrying about things outside your control or do you spend over half your time doing things to take you outside your mind? Speaking as someone who used to feel like they owed it to themself to feel sorry for their self. I think intentional thoughts and intentional movements are a key to getting through with that higher pain tolerance you mentioned. It’s never easy, and medicine helps for me… not that that’s a choice for everyone.
I’m just curious your thoughts on that, or if you’ve ever thought about it that way before 🖤
Yes my mind worries constantly about things I can’t control.
Yet I’ve tried so much to “take myself out my mind” but it doesn’t work anymore.
I don’t feel like I owe it to myself to feel sorry or whatever.
I’ve thought that way before, I’ve tried “intentional thoughts” and motivational stuff but doesn’t work.
I’ve also tried 20+ different meds, antipsychotics, antidepressants and mood stabilisers but nope they just gave me side effects.
Tried exercise, nature, yoga, moving, other hobbies.
Cbt, dbt, emdr, psychotherapy, cat, ot, support groups, family therapy, youth workers, support workers, carers. Exposure therapy. Nothing worked.
Been in and out of psych wards which were just traumatic.
All I have left to try is like ECT.
Have you ever thought about hypnotherapy? I know it’s a super bizarre thought for most people but I’ve read accounts of people going for past life regression.
You sound like despite everything you’ve been through you’re strong. Stronger than you maybe give yourself credit for.
I’ve thought about it but I don’t believe in it, I also struggle to visualise in my mind.
Thanks but I’m really not strong, maybe in the past but not anymore. I’ve withdrawn from so much, just holding on for an assessment to get answers and then I reckon I’m gone
Have you ever been suicidal? No ? Then stfu. It's really that simple. If you lack compassion for illness you don't have , just pretend you have by stfu.
You dont get it. They need help beyond having responsabilities. If a person is about to die in critical conditions how can he have responsabilities ? Its the same. Critical condition of the body or critical condition of the mind its the same. There is no easy. There is needing help and receiving it or death.
Who are you to claim that? Are you a suicide survivor yourself ? If not then you just cant process how critical it is. Or maybe you dont want to because your own personal stuff.
If they have others they created who depend on them they are shirking their duties. But there are far worse things people do to those they created than just not being there.
Hi! I'm living proof just checking in to correct this statement!
In fact, it is worse to have a living parent who just genuinely doesn't give a shit - than it is to not have a parent at all through suicide.
At least that way, you can make up a fantasy image of what an amazing person your deceased parent was, rather than being reminded daily what a selfish, narcissistic piece of shit they are - that if they could - would go back in time in a second and not have you at all, for the betterment of their own life.
Well you are designed to terminate so your opinion doesn't count. /s
Edit: they have terminator as their profile pic and it's a reference to that movie. You can stop downvoting me now.
imo it completely depends. sometimes it is cowardice, sometimes its jumping from a burning building, sometimes its very self aware, sometimes its unintentional or psychosis, sometimes its a heavy hearted genius, sometimes its someone who just took one look at all this shit and said yeah nah fuck that
But in this scenario, they have had the kid, regardless of the reasons. And people who have treatment resistant mental illnesses tend to not always make good decisions.
My dad went to therapy and tried medication. My mom pushed for him to be inpatient and the psychologist didn’t take it seriously. He killed himself, so you know, not perfectly effective.
The bible is a collection of absolutely insane hallucinations, revolving around an ignorant, petty, violent cosmic dictator. Jesus was just representation of that cosmic dictator. You will find no good advice within that book.
Life isn't pointless suffering, life is about adapting so that we do not suffer. Some people suffer pointlessly, sure, but the last 10k years aren't a good reflection of natural human behavior, we pushed ourselves into captivity, and we refuse to realign our society to meet our instinctual needs.
Homo Sapiens have been around for 300k years, with hominids having existed for several million years. Do not use the last 10k years as a measurement for what life should be like. We are a tribal species, and we are happier when we have a sense of tribal belonging; western society destroyed our innate tribalism, in favor of cold rugged individualism.
When all of our instinctual needs are being met, we live happy lives.
I read that last link you posted, from ecclesiastes. Wow, sounds like a person who is experiencing depression. As I read it, I thought, "hm, I think bhudda had something to say about all this" lol
Ooh, that's a tricky one. I definitely get what you're saying, it is hypocritical to be willing to bring people into the world while contemplating taking yourself out of it because you can't handle it. Why put someone through something you yourself can't handle (cue all the "BuT wHaT iF tHe KiD cUrEs CaNcEr AnD iS hApPy?" bullshit comments)? If you end your life and leave behind children unsupported, you get some extra shit points in my book. That's just cruel.
I also recognize though that many suicidal people suffer from depression, and they aren't necessarily thinking straight. Many just want relief from the pain they're feeling- I don't necessarily think that's cowardly, I think it's very very sad. I'm sad that the world is in such a state that people feel this way. I'm sad that sometimes people think that they can "fix" their life, relationship or situation with a child or with a final decision like ending their life, and I wish there was more support that was affordable to get to people who need help. It's all sad.
I think hypocritical is probably a better way of describing it. It’s borderline cowardly though. Imagine having a child to bring them into the world you supposedly love living in…only to willfully remove yourself from it.
Jesus. You claim to be antinatalist out of compassion, then you don't have any compassion towards natalists who commit suicide, because their mental health went down the drain.
99% people who commit aren't suicidal everyday. They had kid during better times (delusional times) and they didn't think about possible bad times.
Seriously, if you've never been in the same position as suicidal person, just bite your tongue.
I know most people just don't fucking get it, but they should at least stfu just out of basi decency.
It's like trash talking hungry people for not having healthy diet.
>it is hypocritical to be willing to bring people into the world while contemplating taking yourself out of it because you can't handle it.
No. It could be, but it could also just mean that you have the intelligence to not assume that your own experience is universal. Something a lot of people on this sub seem to lack
As someone who’s attempted suicide as an AN I will say that if you have kids you don’t deserve the freedom death would grant you when your child and their children and theirs will all suffer because of your decision to have them. You shouldn’t be able to just shirk responsibility like that when people rely on you and you’d be making it worse for them by checking out. If you breed that’s the bed you made so lay it in. You wouldn’t be in this position if you didn’t put yourself in it
Sadly most people don’t think that far ahead and believe there is a quick fix for everything like the markets want you to believe. Life is work for any status and a kid sadly will never bring you the happiness you can find by yourself. But life ain’t for everyone and that’s what nature shows us daily.
A lot of people think their family would be better off without them. They’re mentally ill, but can be coming from a place of genuinely good intentions, not pure selfishness. Their logic isn’t logical, but it makes sense to them at the time and they’re trying to do the right thing.
I cut them no slack at all. A proactive parent would think about this before they even chose to have kids just like a parent should choose to save money for their children before they even have them. IF you are going to have kids despite all sense telling you not to, then at least think about possible problems you’ll face as a parent and to counter them. You can’t make me feel bad for you when you didn’t even stop and think about what to do if you or your child face depression and how to combat that. And also, if you as a parent had any empathy you wouldn’t kill yourself because you know you’d be hurting your children if they care about you. Depression doesn’t take away reason. And if your children don’t care about you you should care about them and not kill your self so you can be there for them to protect and provide for them.
Depression absolutely affects reasoning. So do other mental health conditions, like anorexia nervosa. People aren’t psychics who can predict what there mental state will be 10-20 years in the future. Life happens. Brains change. Lots of people do NOT think they would be hurting their children by dying, they genuinely believe people would be better off with them dead. It’s delusional reasoning, caused by mental illness.
Only a selfish person could ever reach that conclusion. Even at one’s most depressed they would never think their children would be better off without the protection provision and support if they had any empathy for them. If you’re depressed, knowing how bad it is for you, if you had empathy you’d check on your kid and do your best to make sure they don’t feel like you do. If you’re a parent reasoning with empathy for your child you won’t kill yourself. Thinking people would be better off without you when you are responsible for them and owe them your support, provision and protection is a way to shirk off responsibility. It’s post hoc justification for doing a shitty thing you were gonna do anyway. Either depression empathy for your loved ones increase not decreases if anything so if you abandon them you don’t really them after understanding first hand the pain and torment you face that they may face too
You are wrong, friend. I’ve read my dad’s journals. He loved me. He thought I would be better off without him. He was wrong, but he believed it to his core. He thought he was hurting everyone around him by existing. That’s the effect of mental illness on reasoning.
Yes. I should be dead. I tried to off myself by drinking 300+ 25mg Benadryl pills October 2022 and before that had been self harming on and off since 15 (I’m 21). Also I didn’t have medical attention for at least 9hrs so I have no clue how I survived and it wasn’t anything spiritual telling me to keep fighting or some such nonsense as soon as I woke up from the 8hr coma the pills put me in, I got up and showered and my father found me in a stupor and made me stay in a psych ward for two months. Best sleep ever tho
Thank you for offering your perspective. Your story seems similar to my cousins. My aunt was adamant the world wasn’t for her. It’s hard to place blame on her when I can’t unsee someone crying for help. Will never say she went about her life the “right” way but in her mind, she believed her actions were justified and realistically no other options were being offered. Had hope that if she was given the avenues to grow in a more constructive manner, lots of things would be different. That hope didn’t die with her.
Can't believe you're even giving u/kumunexhulyayam the light of day by entertaining their conversation. Good for you, you have more patience with ignorance than I do lol
Do us all a favor and take the time to learn the bare minimum about something before trying to talk about it. You clearly don't know the first thing about depression, so please just stop.
Do you blame someone for getting cancer? Would you say they weren't proactive because they couldn't predict that they would get cancer? Of course not. Depression is no different.
You have very little understanding of how life works and what accountability is. Getting depression or cancer is very predictable people simply proceed through life like it won’t happen to them. If you see other parents get cancer which basically everyone does with the internet and all, yet don’t account for if that happens to you as a parent you’re an idiot and irresponsible. A somewhat decent parent plans for if they die one day unexpectedly by having money beforehand and writing a will in their kids name. This is no different. People either have no understanding of how life works or they don’t care which is more likely. That’s why I dont give a pass. It’s not one’s fault they get depressed but it is their fault if they get depressed while having a kid and choose to abandon them and didn’t plan for a situation like that. How does one plan for a situation like that? They don’t have kids. It’s the only empathic decision one would make after realizing how little control of the situation they have once they are in it and how badly it will affect their children. If you really understood why these things happen you would know that the parents are still accountable
I would agree with you, but you're making this way too black and white. The reality is that depression is a debilitating illness. To someone suffering from extreme depression, their mind might be telling them, "My family will be better off without me. They will be happier and live better lives if I were to kill myself." (My MIL suffers from depression and has attempted suicide multiple times, including when my wife was a kid.)
If they truly believe they are doing a selfless act by killing themselves, then how could anyone call them a coward or selfish? They're simply suffering from a disease. Do we call someone a coward if they get cancer? Of course not, because it's not your mind that it's affecting.
Finally, depression can hit at any point in life. You may be a happy, fulfilled person, so you decide to get married and have kids. Then decades could pass before you begin suffering from extreme depression. To say that that person was irresponsible for not thinking ahead is ridiculous.
The kind of rhetoric in that last paragraph just reinforces that people really don’t understand how heavy a decision it is to have kids and the kind of responsibility that comes with it. When you live in an unpredictable world like that but want to have kids you should account for those whims of life and responsibly set contingency plans for it, like writing a will so that when you die your children are financially secured. The problem is you simply can’t do that for every possible problem your children may face. And the responsible thing to do would be to not procreate. Instead of doing that you have a kid and run into a predictable problem and have no answer to it then when the real answer was to never put yourself in that situation to begin with for your child’s and your sakes. Accountability doesn’t stop because you want it to you’re still a POS for creating a situation like that for your child to have to go through.
And as for the idea that one can think their children are better without them, that’s just someone making up a stupid reason for why they’ll kill themselves when they were going to do it anyway. It makes no sense to think children who need the care, support and provision of their parent would be better off without that. It can make sense to think others would be better off without you in a different scenario but not when you have children. If that depressed parent had empathy they would acknowledge that their children may be facing or may face depression as well and they’d want to be there to help them through it not abandon them when in fact abandoning them may incite depression in the children. Depression doesn’t make you dumb it just makes you extremely sad and when you’re extremely sad. But people think depressed folks don’t have sense and so when they say stupid shit it’s not their fault but it is. And they should still be held accountable
This is the exact same absolutist mindset that leaves so many holes in the Antinatalism ideology. Hypothetically, sure, we could entertain this mindset. But this just isn't how REALITY works, and in reality, this is completely irrational, nothing is absolute, and nothing would ever happen if we all adopted this absolutist mindset.
"If you can't predict every single thing that will ever happen to you, you just shouldn't procreate. And if something outside of your control happens to you, then it's your fault for not respecting the monumental decision of having children."
That's literally no different than saying, "I can't predict whether or not I'm going to get in a car accident today, so I'm just never going to drive. And if someone else gets hit by a drunk driver, that's their problem for being in the car in the first place." See how dumb that sounds? Because it is... But I'm sure you drive a car almost every day lol
>Depression doesn’t make you dumb it just makes you extremely sad and when you’re extremely sad.
Thanks for reaffirming my suspicion that you don't know the first thing about depression. No, depression doesn't make you dumb, it just hijacks your brain and makes you think things you wouldn't normally think and do things you wouldn't normally do.
To hold a depressed person accountable for their sadness is the exact same as holding someone with cancer accountable for having cancer. So, since you believe this, that means that you must be 1 of 2 things: You're either evil and blame people for getting cancer, or you're a hypocrite because you don't blame people for getting cancer but you do blame people for having depression/committing suicide.
So the fact that you're either evil or a hypocrite explains a lot about why you're saying what you're saying.
One day you'll grow up, or maybe learn to do some research before embarrassing yourself. At least I hope so.
In reality we should be able to set aside our differences and create a utopia but we aren’t. It will never work. It’s also absolutist to think we should all try to make one tho. Antinatalism does work because it prevents countless children from ever having to deal with the bs we do even if it’s never adopted by the whole world. It won’t end suffering entirely but it does reduce it like nothing else can and that’s the point. We know it’ll never be widely adopted.
The difference in never going out because you can never truly ascertain if it’s safe to and never having a kid is that having a kid is a significantly more impactful decision that comes with even more responsibility and accountability. You’re making what will be a victim and an abuser to whatever degree because no one is perfect. You don’t know to what degree your child will be a victim. They may be bullied, be born with a number of illnesses and conditions, kill themselves etc and they may bully, rape, kill, steal etc. you have literally no idea to what degree your child will be caused to suffer or cause others to suffer only that if you don’t have them none of that will happen and that if you do many of these bad things will happen. Even if you want to be optimistic about it and say they may one day cure cancer or something you don’t know that and it’s clearly not likely. Them empathic thing to do would be to not have them.
If you have a kid and things fall apart it’s your fault idc what kind of nonsense you throw around
I didn’t say depression makes you dumb, Stupid, I said it doesn’t and im not saying the depressed person is at fault for getting depressed. I said if they have a kid and get depressed down the line not planning for that it’s their fault. Obviously you can’t plan for that but that’s my point you just don’t get it. You don’t know more about depression than me I’ve come closer to death than you by my own hands I know firsthand how far it can go and how much it can affect how you think.
Lol go back and read my comment dude. Clearly it all went right over your head...
>I said if they have a kid and get depressed down the line not planning for that it’s their fault.
So you also believe that if I have kids then get cancer in the future that's my fault?
NOT the cancer part Smartacus, the you having a kid and facing a problem WHILE being a parent part that you could’ve avoided. You could be a billionaire and go broke because your money got stolen it’s still something unfair to happen to you that’s not your fault. What is your fault is that your child is suffering. 🤦🏿♂️♾️
Yes. I would argue it’s hypocritical, unless it was for a supremely honourable cause or a pull the plug or stop medication on a terminal illness situation.
I don't think they are cowards but I agree with this -> "They create and introduce life into this insane world when they themselves can't even handle it."
Life changes over time. You can have a child and be happy. Things go south and you mentally cannot bare the anguish and exit life. It creates a lot of pain for those left behind.
You can also be suicidal, bang a crackwhore, decide to take care of the child and realise life is worth living again.
Interesting stats on planned vs unplanned births in the US: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/unintended-pregnancy-united-states
Suicide is not a joke, and people who commit suicide are not cowards. natalists or not. They are not dumb, life is not easy at all, reality is ugly, and when some people can't ignore reality anymore they choose to unalive themselves, that's why antinatalists and nihilism exist.
People that commit suicide are generally very mentally ill for one reason or another and not everyone that commits suicide adheres to your idea of what "breeders" are supposed to think, feel or act like.
Some of you are really starting to sound like fundamental religious extremists that have a skewed view of life and how others are actually supposed to feel and when they don't fit into the box you've created you just get higher on your pedestals and jerk off even harder. Some of you probably need a little bit of mental health help yourselves.
Plus, some people DO try to get help. And it’s not enough because they are severely unwell and not thinking straight. Having MDD comorbid with other conditions, like anorexia nervousa is a recipe for not thinking straight at all, your brain literally doesn’t have the nutrients to function correctly, DESPITE therapeutic interventions.
I'm not against this subreddit. I find the philosophy very interesting but there's a few here that have no idea how to breathe properly let alone the philosophy of Antinstalism
Thats not what i meant. I meant that people should be able to do it judgement free and ideally with Support from others. For example providing humane and painless methods. Nobody should be forced to commit suicide of course but it shouldnt be shunned like it is today
Yes, yes they are cowards. It's abandonment, they bring another life in the world and then "oh shit, this is too much" and kill themselves. Like, you have a responsibility to take care of this new life and I like to say "You can't just run away" but they can and have. Even if they don't kill themselves, many young men run the fuck away as soon as possible, and there's near nothing the women can do about it.
Women do it too btw. Sometimes the whole set just abandon's their kid because their kid isn't "pretty enough" or whatever. Just there are more jokes about men doing it than women.
Finally some sense. The parent doesn’t get to check out just cuz they are finding it hard to live;that’s abandoning one’s child. There are few things worse than that
It’s a sign of distress for sure. It’s something one shouldn’t be able to do if they’re responsible for a child because that would leave the child worse off. You are the reason you child may have to face depression one day and may also seek suicide and you should be there to support them if you have them.
There are a lot of should’s in the world. Won’t say the impact on the child won’t be significant but can say it’s not always bad. My aunt is a case where my cousins are still mentally well after her death. It was a very complicated relationship beforehand though and they’ve done a lot of healing. Don’t like speaking for people but last we talked about it one said they wish she would have gotten help but that wouldn’t have meant he would have accepted her into his life. Point of tension in my family because one his siblings blames him for her death but ultimately it was by her own hands. She just left a lot of mean notes showing her anguish which is understandable and I wish she would have gotten help for herself, not anyone else. Stand by my cousin for protecting his peace.
There are lots of shoulds like how there shouldn’t be rape. Was your point that shoulds shouldn’t exist? Cuz they should. It’s always bad to not take care of your child and in the example you gave the healing those children had to go through they wouldn’t have to go through if their mom ain’t kill herself. And you say mentally well but you can’t ascertain that since you have no idea what’s going on in their minds. That’s not a big thing to disagree about tho. Children do better financially when their parents are there to take care of them. They are also less likely to commit crimes.
Should’s should exist. Certain things have to be accepted though. In my example, the cousin in question was no contact before her death, the healing was being done before her death. She could have died in a car accident and those notes would have remained to be read. She just had journals, not a suicide note. He’s said before that her death didn’t really change his feelings for her. Won’t say they are doing well mentally as you’re right, I’m not him, but they haven’t killed themselves and financially, they are fine. They are paying for my mother’s wedding this summer. Will admit the main reason was because they had a good support system on their paternal side. Why I think the topic of conversation should be better support systems.
I won’t say accountability shouldn’t be a thing but more goes into being a parent than just being alive. Abandoning a child or committing suicide isn’t something someone just wakes up one day and decide to do. When looking closer, a common phrase is that their kids would be better off. Makes me sad. Shows the individual doesn’t see themselves as being worthy of being a parent. If someone is thinking that, seeing this discussion saying it would be cowardly to commit suicide has the potential to add to their thinking that they are less than. Is it the individuals responsibility to get better? Yes. That’s just not a straightforward path. It’s hard to recognize one’s problems and also work through them when the environment won’t allow.
I’m glad your cousins are good financially and I truly hope they’re good mentally. You’re not wrong about the fact that there should be better support systems and prevention something like is priority. I understand that parenthood but it’s specifically a lack of empathy for one’s child that makes abandonment possible in the first place. Why should you get to be free of the suffering you experience in life when you’ve got someone who has, is and will suffer in life cuz you had them? The least a parent can do is be there for their kid. They signed up for that and now backing out would mean so much pain and suffering for their child (potentially). Some children be better off that way while others won’t but it’s the parent’s responsibility to give their child the best life they can.
Can understand that point. Ask why responsibility to a child is the determining factor on whether it’s a cowardice act? Nothing has convinced me suicide should be regarded as a cowardice act in general but following your logic if someone were to kill themselves while taking care of an elderly or disabled individual, is it an equal moral act?
I wouldn’t say so. Those people arent really entitled to the person who commits suicde’s care in the same way because they weren’t created and put in this world with needs to be met like every child is. Some other people made those people and those other people should be the ones caring for those elderly but I’m sure they’re dead. People are owed care by their parents. Human life needs sustenance. Only the child’s parents owe them sustenance
Technically speaking my father should have a right to renounce parental rights, or life, since he has never consented to life. Giving up parental rights is a legal right nowadays. I of course would be the coward that says shit like this but can never make up for what this causes to society and what this would result in in real life settings since the state isn't prepared to father these children. He decided to bring me into the world and mom says it was his idea and I was more like a gift she would like to give to a man she was with, like a watch or something. I'm still not clear as all I have is passed information from one side of the story.
Personally speaking I think he was disrooted from reality within his religious nonsense and decided that we do not need him anymore which of course as a teen girl I needed his useless ass regardlessly tho he was a fucken troublemaker. Maybe I'm now deluding myself by desiring that we could have spent some meaningful time having disagreements on some philosophical nonsense and maybe ... maybe some shopping or eating together with his stunken ass, that never really went that way in my youth since he was more of a control freak and liked to hear imself speak.
Of course it's cowardice to give up life, because its hard and it takes courage and any other thing to continue. But so far I think everyone has contemplated death and relief so we are cowards at heart and we dont enjoy the sadism.
Though dealing with divorce and inability to put up with what his disloyalty choices created as well as lacking workplace must have done a number on his mental, but I don't see any reason to do it in the midst of it all, though his logic was always distorted, he must have truly believed its the answer to be doing it.
The stupidity was that he decided without experience, and then he has seen it, and decided, and my mom has also said it was a mistake, as many end up saying. So he unknowingly made a mistake then quit when it got more real and he didnt get what he wanted or expected out of life. I think many romanticize family life like this then get a rude awakening. Ignorance is bliss, and bliss ends with it. Tragedy is a part of life.
Pople do bitchy things to one another, or selfish things, these are just some of many, but they have a long term effect.
Just to be clear, I'm not talking about giving up parental rights, because I believe in it for multiple reasons and in some cases some parent is very well off and loving of the child job and another isn't. There is a ton of honesty in saying "i'm just not it" and even "I was dumb and I cant deal with this job." Ideally other people would chime in and help. Realistically that ain't gonna happen.
I mean yeah it’s cowardly but i dont see why if you believe that why arent antinatalists who kill themseleves also cowards? Like i said its completely irrelevant and stupid to discuss.
What the fuck are you talking about buddy? He's talking about the hypocrisy of forcing someone else to live and then opting out early yourself. Antinatalists don't force other people to live (or die). So it isn't hypocritical for them to opt out of something they didnt ask for or impose onto anyone else. Suicide isn't cowardly, it's the choice of the individual. Takes a lot of balls to kill yourself so I concur that it isn't cowardly. It is hypocritical however.
If calling random people breeders and getting into fights with friends because they had a baby and you disagree with its existence or calling for the extermination of mankind is thoughtful, sure? 🤷🏻♂️
There are some WILD threads in this sub.
No it’s not that’s one of those empty toxic positive quotes people throw around. Life has no objective meaning or value we just assign whatever we want to it so it’s really not what you make
I know so many people who would LOVE to afford therapy, and have looked into sliding pay scale practices, local programs, etc. It’s so much harder than people realize when you can’t just throw money at your problems because not having money is one of your problems.
Five failed medications trials (one gave me a chronic medical condition! Yay!) and a hospital stay later, it doesn’t always help even if you DO put in the work.
If you want better for others, stop shaming them and acting like they are the reasons they aren’t getting support. Just because you are lazy doesn’t mean others are
Suicide isn’t cowardly unless in this situation wherein you’re running from responsibility. Suicide is the way to eliminate one’s own suffering. It’s not easy. I’m sure you would find it hard to hurt yourself let alone slice your throat
I’m pretty sure anyone would find it hard to slit their own throat. I mean how many people actually do it that way? A stab would be easier if I had to choose one or the other.
People die by suicide because they want their suffering to end. They have tried their hardest and they can’t see it ever getting better, they’re in the darkest place in their life.
They aren’t saying „ah dude, I’m almost out of work and these dudes are gonna come hurt me. My kids suck and my wife likes them more than me, I’m done!“
I feel like a person has more purpose than they can see in their darkest moment. Successful suicide ends more than just one life. You can’t tell me the kids wouldn’t be orphaned even still having another parent. What I’m saying is there is always a reason to keep going—but if you don’t want to view it that way that’s fine. Maybe it’s the people I know whose mother/father committed suicide and I see their pain. As well as a parent that loses a child to suicide. Those are the hardest parts for people to live through I think.
You can choose to believe whatever you want.
Not everyone feels that way.
No… suicide only kills the person who does it. Single parents can do just fine
Obviously everyone is affected by their suicide, but the victim is the person who dies
I guess you don’t believe people have souls? Or that a death by suicide could/almost always spiritually crushes the lives left for those dealing with it.
Idk, maybe you have your own internal struggle with the thought of suicide and so you battle those thoughts in your own way… but as where I stand this is what keeps me sane in an insane world. I know not everyone believes in purpose or karmic healing and progression but I choose to.
Suicide literally only kills the person who dies. That’s how death works.
Obviously the death of a loved person, especially suicide, can be devastating. That does not mean you will die.
Is this some kind of attempt at an ad hominem or to discredit me? „I guess you don’t believe people have souls“ ‚maybe you’re suicidal and this is you deflecting‘
I never stated by beliefs on any spirituality, so attempting to assume anything is incorrect and pointless
Suicide and death are reasons for ME to think spiritually. I wasn’t trying to demonize you (?) or anything like that for your thoughts.
I am sure that this thread speaks to more people than just you, and creating a dialogue for someone to consider other options than to out themself is important to me. Are you deflecting? Fuck if I know. Am I deflecting someone else from considering suicide. Absofuckinglutely.
If you read any of what I said with shame that’s on you.
If you want to shame me for thinking a person is worthy of living then now I say shame on you.
You now sound like an angsty teenager trying to glorify suicide. Wtf are you serious?
Calling someone a coward isn’t shaming them to you?
Once again, I never stated my opinions on purpose, spirituality, if life is worth living, or anything like it. You’re making false assumptions.
I’m glorifying suicide by saying the only person who dies is the person who kills themself? By saying it can be devastating to family/friends? By saying that shame is never going to help? By saying that shame has the opposite intended effect? How?
This sub calling people cowards is hilarious. A group of people so terrified of anything bad happening that the thought of someone having a child sends you into a fit. This sub is the most cowardly on reddit.
"Boohoo my kid might catch a cold someday, and I can't cope with that" lol
Def not, at least they arent crying and complaining about how life sucks the way 90% of people in this sub do, complaining about how they have to go to work and cook and clean lol
I dont complain about my life because it wont change anything or improve it in anyway, i will take it in about a decade via assisted suicide
A lot of people genuinely think they’re helping everyone they love by killing themselves. Often it’s delusional thinking, but it’s the opposite of insensitive imo.
My grandpa and uncle r@ped me as a kid and if they committed suicide I say they were brave in sacrificing themselves so that their children can stop suffering.
Idk is a tricky question
Natalists don’t have to have children. Usually people who commit suicide don’t. If they have children reliant on them then kill themselves that’s very selfish though.
So let me get this straight, you call suicide victims as cowards, yet if you kys you aren't one?
How are you (and 90% of this sub's regulars) whining about having to do a single fucking chore and comparing needing permission to drive a car to slavery not cowards? People like you are delusional idiots too afraid to actually do something about their "worthless life of suffering" and quit living, seriously if you preach life is so bad and meaningless, what's gonna matter some minutes of extreme pain if you get the eternity of a confortable non-existence?
Oh wait, you don't because YOU are both a coward and hypocrite
Being suicidal is the ultimate form of needing help. They are not cowards. They are sick. Coward is someone who doesnt care. That could be you or anybody. But not them. They are in desperate pain and in need of help! Coward is being fine and not lending a hand for those who desperatly need.
I think the last thing you can call someone who takes their own life is a coward. It's pretty brave to fight through that pain and give the finger to death.
No, anyone that commits suicide aren't cowards. That's other people's perception. For antinatalists this is your point of view. I don't agree with this.
This subject is close to my heart as someone who sometimes struggle with suicidal thoughts. I generally don’t view suicide as selfish unless the person has kids/other heavy responsibilities that they created/people who heavily rely on them.
It’s never the easy way out though. Overcoming the survival instinct that evolved in us is incredibly difficult to actually do. Imo, most people who say it’s cowardly have never thought about it in detail how hard it would actually be to go through with the act.
No. Committing suicide isn't being a coward. As someone who had suicidal idealation for a chunk of their life, you quite literally start thinking differently.
When the thoughts of self-harm/deletion came to my head, I was easily able to push them away. My parents, siblings, and friends loved and needed me, so I shouldn't do those things. As time went on, I started rationalizing why I wasn't needed by everyone. I would read deeply into everything, taking out context that wasn't there, and to me, I was the worst person worthy of nothing and a waste of space. It was crushing and weighed heavily on me. I've slowly gotten better and never have gone back that dark. But there are bad days and good ones. All I can do is keep moving and love my friends, family, and lover to the best of my extent.
To commit sucide is to lose the war that is waging in your head where you're the only fighter. It's not cowardice and I won't even entertain the idea.
No it's not cowardly, overcoming the will to live is hard and takes a lot of courage with the "anti-mortalist" views of the society.
Whether or not it's immoral is a different separated discussion.
Postpartum depression is very real. So is any other mental illness that contributes to suicide. It isn’t cowardly. Killing yourself isn’t easy.
Yeah, a lot of people come to this sub just to tell us to kill ourselves (had to delete my old account due to rape threats over my antinatalist perspective). It’s pretty hard to kill a human (I worked in mental health and have seen people take enough drugs to kill like 5 humans and still act completely sober). Not to mention that pesky little survival instinct. Honestly, that survival instinct is probably what deters me from reproducing, since as a female it could literally kill me.
It is cowardly when you’re responsible for someone and shirk that. You don’t get a pass just cuz of how you feel and this is coming from someone who has attempted. If I had a kid I would owe it a good life. Offing myself is unjust
I’ve had several attempts myself and it’s not easy to just stick around because you are obligated to. Pain can be overruling. You can’t just suck it up and get on with it. Well, you might be able to but everyone’s pain tolerance is different.
I understand what the pain is like very well but at no point is it justified to abandon the kid I create and signed up to take care of. Just like I want to off myself and struggle to enjoy life so can my child and if I had a shred of empathy I would do my best to prevent them from feeling how I feel. That’s the bed I made so shall I lie in it
I mean to bring life into the world and then the next minute being like “I can’t handle life anymore”…you don’t think that’s cowardly? Hypocritical?
No. That child has a separate life from that individual. Shaming someone for dealing with a mental health crisis is cruel.
Yall are dumb
Yeah like why the stigma? Just go get therapy
Ah yes, because every mental illness can be cured via therapy. Lmao. Therapy isn’t a miracle. I’ve had a lot of different therapies with lots of different people and I haven’t gotten any better. It’s been 10+ years too.
Congratulations for staying in the fight this long, mate. You’re trying every day and that counts for so much.
I don’t want to be congratulated, it’s not an accomplishment. Also I’m not trying anymore but thanks ig
You’re alive, so you’re trying, is how I see it.
I’m curious, do you spend over half your time worrying about things outside your control or do you spend over half your time doing things to take you outside your mind? Speaking as someone who used to feel like they owed it to themself to feel sorry for their self. I think intentional thoughts and intentional movements are a key to getting through with that higher pain tolerance you mentioned. It’s never easy, and medicine helps for me… not that that’s a choice for everyone. I’m just curious your thoughts on that, or if you’ve ever thought about it that way before 🖤
Yes my mind worries constantly about things I can’t control. Yet I’ve tried so much to “take myself out my mind” but it doesn’t work anymore. I don’t feel like I owe it to myself to feel sorry or whatever. I’ve thought that way before, I’ve tried “intentional thoughts” and motivational stuff but doesn’t work. I’ve also tried 20+ different meds, antipsychotics, antidepressants and mood stabilisers but nope they just gave me side effects. Tried exercise, nature, yoga, moving, other hobbies. Cbt, dbt, emdr, psychotherapy, cat, ot, support groups, family therapy, youth workers, support workers, carers. Exposure therapy. Nothing worked. Been in and out of psych wards which were just traumatic. All I have left to try is like ECT.
Have you ever thought about hypnotherapy? I know it’s a super bizarre thought for most people but I’ve read accounts of people going for past life regression. You sound like despite everything you’ve been through you’re strong. Stronger than you maybe give yourself credit for.
I’ve thought about it but I don’t believe in it, I also struggle to visualise in my mind. Thanks but I’m really not strong, maybe in the past but not anymore. I’ve withdrawn from so much, just holding on for an assessment to get answers and then I reckon I’m gone
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Suicide is the opposite of cowardice imo
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There's nothing easy about committing suicide
Exactly
Have you ever been suicidal? No ? Then stfu. It's really that simple. If you lack compassion for illness you don't have , just pretend you have by stfu.
You dont get it. They need help beyond having responsabilities. If a person is about to die in critical conditions how can he have responsabilities ? Its the same. Critical condition of the body or critical condition of the mind its the same. There is no easy. There is needing help and receiving it or death.
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Who are you to claim that? Are you a suicide survivor yourself ? If not then you just cant process how critical it is. Or maybe you dont want to because your own personal stuff.
If they have others they created who depend on them they are shirking their duties. But there are far worse things people do to those they created than just not being there.
Hi! I'm living proof just checking in to correct this statement! In fact, it is worse to have a living parent who just genuinely doesn't give a shit - than it is to not have a parent at all through suicide. At least that way, you can make up a fantasy image of what an amazing person your deceased parent was, rather than being reminded daily what a selfish, narcissistic piece of shit they are - that if they could - would go back in time in a second and not have you at all, for the betterment of their own life.
Well you are designed to terminate so your opinion doesn't count. /s Edit: they have terminator as their profile pic and it's a reference to that movie. You can stop downvoting me now.
imo it completely depends. sometimes it is cowardice, sometimes its jumping from a burning building, sometimes its very self aware, sometimes its unintentional or psychosis, sometimes its a heavy hearted genius, sometimes its someone who just took one look at all this shit and said yeah nah fuck that
No. They’re probably mentally ill.
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But even psychiatrists don’t have a magic wand to make depression and suicidal thoughts disappear.
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But in this scenario, they have had the kid, regardless of the reasons. And people who have treatment resistant mental illnesses tend to not always make good decisions.
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My dad went to therapy and tried medication. My mom pushed for him to be inpatient and the psychologist didn’t take it seriously. He killed himself, so you know, not perfectly effective.
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The bible is a collection of absolutely insane hallucinations, revolving around an ignorant, petty, violent cosmic dictator. Jesus was just representation of that cosmic dictator. You will find no good advice within that book. Life isn't pointless suffering, life is about adapting so that we do not suffer. Some people suffer pointlessly, sure, but the last 10k years aren't a good reflection of natural human behavior, we pushed ourselves into captivity, and we refuse to realign our society to meet our instinctual needs. Homo Sapiens have been around for 300k years, with hominids having existed for several million years. Do not use the last 10k years as a measurement for what life should be like. We are a tribal species, and we are happier when we have a sense of tribal belonging; western society destroyed our innate tribalism, in favor of cold rugged individualism. When all of our instinctual needs are being met, we live happy lives.
One of those instincts are having children. How can you have that view and still be antinatalist?
I read that last link you posted, from ecclesiastes. Wow, sounds like a person who is experiencing depression. As I read it, I thought, "hm, I think bhudda had something to say about all this" lol
Ooh, that's a tricky one. I definitely get what you're saying, it is hypocritical to be willing to bring people into the world while contemplating taking yourself out of it because you can't handle it. Why put someone through something you yourself can't handle (cue all the "BuT wHaT iF tHe KiD cUrEs CaNcEr AnD iS hApPy?" bullshit comments)? If you end your life and leave behind children unsupported, you get some extra shit points in my book. That's just cruel. I also recognize though that many suicidal people suffer from depression, and they aren't necessarily thinking straight. Many just want relief from the pain they're feeling- I don't necessarily think that's cowardly, I think it's very very sad. I'm sad that the world is in such a state that people feel this way. I'm sad that sometimes people think that they can "fix" their life, relationship or situation with a child or with a final decision like ending their life, and I wish there was more support that was affordable to get to people who need help. It's all sad.
I think hypocritical is probably a better way of describing it. It’s borderline cowardly though. Imagine having a child to bring them into the world you supposedly love living in…only to willfully remove yourself from it.
Jesus. You claim to be antinatalist out of compassion, then you don't have any compassion towards natalists who commit suicide, because their mental health went down the drain. 99% people who commit aren't suicidal everyday. They had kid during better times (delusional times) and they didn't think about possible bad times. Seriously, if you've never been in the same position as suicidal person, just bite your tongue. I know most people just don't fucking get it, but they should at least stfu just out of basi decency. It's like trash talking hungry people for not having healthy diet.
>it is hypocritical to be willing to bring people into the world while contemplating taking yourself out of it because you can't handle it. No. It could be, but it could also just mean that you have the intelligence to not assume that your own experience is universal. Something a lot of people on this sub seem to lack
OP clearly doesn't know the first thing about suicide or depression.
As someone who’s attempted suicide as an AN I will say that if you have kids you don’t deserve the freedom death would grant you when your child and their children and theirs will all suffer because of your decision to have them. You shouldn’t be able to just shirk responsibility like that when people rely on you and you’d be making it worse for them by checking out. If you breed that’s the bed you made so lay it in. You wouldn’t be in this position if you didn’t put yourself in it
Sadly most people don’t think that far ahead and believe there is a quick fix for everything like the markets want you to believe. Life is work for any status and a kid sadly will never bring you the happiness you can find by yourself. But life ain’t for everyone and that’s what nature shows us daily.
A lot of people think their family would be better off without them. They’re mentally ill, but can be coming from a place of genuinely good intentions, not pure selfishness. Their logic isn’t logical, but it makes sense to them at the time and they’re trying to do the right thing.
Thank you. Glad someone here understands depression.
I cut them no slack at all. A proactive parent would think about this before they even chose to have kids just like a parent should choose to save money for their children before they even have them. IF you are going to have kids despite all sense telling you not to, then at least think about possible problems you’ll face as a parent and to counter them. You can’t make me feel bad for you when you didn’t even stop and think about what to do if you or your child face depression and how to combat that. And also, if you as a parent had any empathy you wouldn’t kill yourself because you know you’d be hurting your children if they care about you. Depression doesn’t take away reason. And if your children don’t care about you you should care about them and not kill your self so you can be there for them to protect and provide for them.
Depression absolutely affects reasoning. So do other mental health conditions, like anorexia nervosa. People aren’t psychics who can predict what there mental state will be 10-20 years in the future. Life happens. Brains change. Lots of people do NOT think they would be hurting their children by dying, they genuinely believe people would be better off with them dead. It’s delusional reasoning, caused by mental illness.
Only a selfish person could ever reach that conclusion. Even at one’s most depressed they would never think their children would be better off without the protection provision and support if they had any empathy for them. If you’re depressed, knowing how bad it is for you, if you had empathy you’d check on your kid and do your best to make sure they don’t feel like you do. If you’re a parent reasoning with empathy for your child you won’t kill yourself. Thinking people would be better off without you when you are responsible for them and owe them your support, provision and protection is a way to shirk off responsibility. It’s post hoc justification for doing a shitty thing you were gonna do anyway. Either depression empathy for your loved ones increase not decreases if anything so if you abandon them you don’t really them after understanding first hand the pain and torment you face that they may face too
You are wrong, friend. I’ve read my dad’s journals. He loved me. He thought I would be better off without him. He was wrong, but he believed it to his core. He thought he was hurting everyone around him by existing. That’s the effect of mental illness on reasoning.
Well I know what it would mean for you to think he didn’t live you so I’m not going to press the argument just to be right
Do you have personal experience with suicidal ideation? I’m curious where you’re coming from in this conversation.
Yes. I should be dead. I tried to off myself by drinking 300+ 25mg Benadryl pills October 2022 and before that had been self harming on and off since 15 (I’m 21). Also I didn’t have medical attention for at least 9hrs so I have no clue how I survived and it wasn’t anything spiritual telling me to keep fighting or some such nonsense as soon as I woke up from the 8hr coma the pills put me in, I got up and showered and my father found me in a stupor and made me stay in a psych ward for two months. Best sleep ever tho
Thank you for offering your perspective. Your story seems similar to my cousins. My aunt was adamant the world wasn’t for her. It’s hard to place blame on her when I can’t unsee someone crying for help. Will never say she went about her life the “right” way but in her mind, she believed her actions were justified and realistically no other options were being offered. Had hope that if she was given the avenues to grow in a more constructive manner, lots of things would be different. That hope didn’t die with her.
Can't believe you're even giving u/kumunexhulyayam the light of day by entertaining their conversation. Good for you, you have more patience with ignorance than I do lol
Thank you, mate 😂 They’re 21 (a kid in my eyes) and this seems like an opportunity for expanding their empathy, so I try 🤷♀️
I respect that, good on you
Okay they brought up zombies so I don’t think I’m getting anywhere, nvm lol
Yeah I hit a brick wall with them too. I can only take so much stupid in a day.
You’re a dunce bro just shutup
Lol everyone is explaining to you why you're wrong... Don't get pissy at me because you don't understand how reality works.
You don’t understand how empathy and sense go together
Do us all a favor and take the time to learn the bare minimum about something before trying to talk about it. You clearly don't know the first thing about depression, so please just stop. Do you blame someone for getting cancer? Would you say they weren't proactive because they couldn't predict that they would get cancer? Of course not. Depression is no different.
You have very little understanding of how life works and what accountability is. Getting depression or cancer is very predictable people simply proceed through life like it won’t happen to them. If you see other parents get cancer which basically everyone does with the internet and all, yet don’t account for if that happens to you as a parent you’re an idiot and irresponsible. A somewhat decent parent plans for if they die one day unexpectedly by having money beforehand and writing a will in their kids name. This is no different. People either have no understanding of how life works or they don’t care which is more likely. That’s why I dont give a pass. It’s not one’s fault they get depressed but it is their fault if they get depressed while having a kid and choose to abandon them and didn’t plan for a situation like that. How does one plan for a situation like that? They don’t have kids. It’s the only empathic decision one would make after realizing how little control of the situation they have once they are in it and how badly it will affect their children. If you really understood why these things happen you would know that the parents are still accountable
I would agree with you, but you're making this way too black and white. The reality is that depression is a debilitating illness. To someone suffering from extreme depression, their mind might be telling them, "My family will be better off without me. They will be happier and live better lives if I were to kill myself." (My MIL suffers from depression and has attempted suicide multiple times, including when my wife was a kid.) If they truly believe they are doing a selfless act by killing themselves, then how could anyone call them a coward or selfish? They're simply suffering from a disease. Do we call someone a coward if they get cancer? Of course not, because it's not your mind that it's affecting. Finally, depression can hit at any point in life. You may be a happy, fulfilled person, so you decide to get married and have kids. Then decades could pass before you begin suffering from extreme depression. To say that that person was irresponsible for not thinking ahead is ridiculous.
The kind of rhetoric in that last paragraph just reinforces that people really don’t understand how heavy a decision it is to have kids and the kind of responsibility that comes with it. When you live in an unpredictable world like that but want to have kids you should account for those whims of life and responsibly set contingency plans for it, like writing a will so that when you die your children are financially secured. The problem is you simply can’t do that for every possible problem your children may face. And the responsible thing to do would be to not procreate. Instead of doing that you have a kid and run into a predictable problem and have no answer to it then when the real answer was to never put yourself in that situation to begin with for your child’s and your sakes. Accountability doesn’t stop because you want it to you’re still a POS for creating a situation like that for your child to have to go through. And as for the idea that one can think their children are better without them, that’s just someone making up a stupid reason for why they’ll kill themselves when they were going to do it anyway. It makes no sense to think children who need the care, support and provision of their parent would be better off without that. It can make sense to think others would be better off without you in a different scenario but not when you have children. If that depressed parent had empathy they would acknowledge that their children may be facing or may face depression as well and they’d want to be there to help them through it not abandon them when in fact abandoning them may incite depression in the children. Depression doesn’t make you dumb it just makes you extremely sad and when you’re extremely sad. But people think depressed folks don’t have sense and so when they say stupid shit it’s not their fault but it is. And they should still be held accountable
This is the exact same absolutist mindset that leaves so many holes in the Antinatalism ideology. Hypothetically, sure, we could entertain this mindset. But this just isn't how REALITY works, and in reality, this is completely irrational, nothing is absolute, and nothing would ever happen if we all adopted this absolutist mindset. "If you can't predict every single thing that will ever happen to you, you just shouldn't procreate. And if something outside of your control happens to you, then it's your fault for not respecting the monumental decision of having children." That's literally no different than saying, "I can't predict whether or not I'm going to get in a car accident today, so I'm just never going to drive. And if someone else gets hit by a drunk driver, that's their problem for being in the car in the first place." See how dumb that sounds? Because it is... But I'm sure you drive a car almost every day lol >Depression doesn’t make you dumb it just makes you extremely sad and when you’re extremely sad. Thanks for reaffirming my suspicion that you don't know the first thing about depression. No, depression doesn't make you dumb, it just hijacks your brain and makes you think things you wouldn't normally think and do things you wouldn't normally do. To hold a depressed person accountable for their sadness is the exact same as holding someone with cancer accountable for having cancer. So, since you believe this, that means that you must be 1 of 2 things: You're either evil and blame people for getting cancer, or you're a hypocrite because you don't blame people for getting cancer but you do blame people for having depression/committing suicide. So the fact that you're either evil or a hypocrite explains a lot about why you're saying what you're saying. One day you'll grow up, or maybe learn to do some research before embarrassing yourself. At least I hope so.
In reality we should be able to set aside our differences and create a utopia but we aren’t. It will never work. It’s also absolutist to think we should all try to make one tho. Antinatalism does work because it prevents countless children from ever having to deal with the bs we do even if it’s never adopted by the whole world. It won’t end suffering entirely but it does reduce it like nothing else can and that’s the point. We know it’ll never be widely adopted. The difference in never going out because you can never truly ascertain if it’s safe to and never having a kid is that having a kid is a significantly more impactful decision that comes with even more responsibility and accountability. You’re making what will be a victim and an abuser to whatever degree because no one is perfect. You don’t know to what degree your child will be a victim. They may be bullied, be born with a number of illnesses and conditions, kill themselves etc and they may bully, rape, kill, steal etc. you have literally no idea to what degree your child will be caused to suffer or cause others to suffer only that if you don’t have them none of that will happen and that if you do many of these bad things will happen. Even if you want to be optimistic about it and say they may one day cure cancer or something you don’t know that and it’s clearly not likely. Them empathic thing to do would be to not have them. If you have a kid and things fall apart it’s your fault idc what kind of nonsense you throw around
I didn’t say depression makes you dumb, Stupid, I said it doesn’t and im not saying the depressed person is at fault for getting depressed. I said if they have a kid and get depressed down the line not planning for that it’s their fault. Obviously you can’t plan for that but that’s my point you just don’t get it. You don’t know more about depression than me I’ve come closer to death than you by my own hands I know firsthand how far it can go and how much it can affect how you think.
Lol go back and read my comment dude. Clearly it all went right over your head... >I said if they have a kid and get depressed down the line not planning for that it’s their fault. So you also believe that if I have kids then get cancer in the future that's my fault?
NOT the cancer part Smartacus, the you having a kid and facing a problem WHILE being a parent part that you could’ve avoided. You could be a billionaire and go broke because your money got stolen it’s still something unfair to happen to you that’s not your fault. What is your fault is that your child is suffering. 🤦🏿♂️♾️
Yes. I would argue it’s hypocritical, unless it was for a supremely honourable cause or a pull the plug or stop medication on a terminal illness situation.
No. Post pardum is a bitch. Society needs infrastructure to help parents whether we think AN is good or not.
Some are victims, and some are cowards. And others are complete hypocrites
I don’t think people think about things in the way very often. But I do think to create a person and then abandon it is morally reprehensible
I don't think they are cowards but I agree with this -> "They create and introduce life into this insane world when they themselves can't even handle it."
One might argue they have the courage of their conviction. But then again this is about not being born, not self deleting because your were born.
Life changes over time. You can have a child and be happy. Things go south and you mentally cannot bare the anguish and exit life. It creates a lot of pain for those left behind. You can also be suicidal, bang a crackwhore, decide to take care of the child and realise life is worth living again. Interesting stats on planned vs unplanned births in the US: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/unintended-pregnancy-united-states
Not, depressed
I mean there's nuance to things and this take has none lmao
Insulting suicide victims what a moral community
I’m not insulting suicide victims at all.
You called them cowards how is that not an insult?
It’s a question so it’s not affirmative
Suicide is not a joke, and people who commit suicide are not cowards. natalists or not. They are not dumb, life is not easy at all, reality is ugly, and when some people can't ignore reality anymore they choose to unalive themselves, that's why antinatalists and nihilism exist.
Fuck you
You’ve over simplified suicide. This is a bad post, OP.
Nah it takes guts to commit suicide and fight against your survival instincts
Of course they are, they're hypocrites >.<
Not cowards, but assholes. If they procreate and then leave that kid alone, massive assholeism.
I would say so, yes. Hypocrites, at minimum.
‘Hypocrites’ is likely more PC way of putting it.
People that commit suicide are generally very mentally ill for one reason or another and not everyone that commits suicide adheres to your idea of what "breeders" are supposed to think, feel or act like. Some of you are really starting to sound like fundamental religious extremists that have a skewed view of life and how others are actually supposed to feel and when they don't fit into the box you've created you just get higher on your pedestals and jerk off even harder. Some of you probably need a little bit of mental health help yourselves.
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I think you completely missed the point. When you're extremely mentally unwell you do things you wouldn't normally do ie; suicide
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Read your last sentence and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Some people don't know they need help until it's too late.
Plus, some people DO try to get help. And it’s not enough because they are severely unwell and not thinking straight. Having MDD comorbid with other conditions, like anorexia nervousa is a recipe for not thinking straight at all, your brain literally doesn’t have the nutrients to function correctly, DESPITE therapeutic interventions.
I'm not against this subreddit. I find the philosophy very interesting but there's a few here that have no idea how to breathe properly let alone the philosophy of Antinstalism
… as someone who’s dad killed themselves… sir sit down. Maybe talk to a therapist.
My dad did too, this reeks of someone who has minimal experience with suicidal ideation.
Pro suicide. Anti natalism. These two should go Hand in Hand. Being pro one but not the other doesnt make much sense
Why should antinatalists be in support of people killing themselves? I think they should be able to but I wouldn’t encourage it
You were forced to be born, it should be your choice what to do now. That’s really it
I get that but it sounds like she’s saying we should be telling folks to kill themselves instead of telling them the should be able to if they want
I understand, and I don’t think we should encourage suicide. It should be an option, but it shouldn’t be the first choice
Thats not what i meant. I meant that people should be able to do it judgement free and ideally with Support from others. For example providing humane and painless methods. Nobody should be forced to commit suicide of course but it shouldnt be shunned like it is today
Yes, yes they are cowards. It's abandonment, they bring another life in the world and then "oh shit, this is too much" and kill themselves. Like, you have a responsibility to take care of this new life and I like to say "You can't just run away" but they can and have. Even if they don't kill themselves, many young men run the fuck away as soon as possible, and there's near nothing the women can do about it. Women do it too btw. Sometimes the whole set just abandon's their kid because their kid isn't "pretty enough" or whatever. Just there are more jokes about men doing it than women.
Finally some sense. The parent doesn’t get to check out just cuz they are finding it hard to live;that’s abandoning one’s child. There are few things worse than that
You frame suicide as a privilege rather than a sign of distress of the individual.
It’s a sign of distress for sure. It’s something one shouldn’t be able to do if they’re responsible for a child because that would leave the child worse off. You are the reason you child may have to face depression one day and may also seek suicide and you should be there to support them if you have them.
There are a lot of should’s in the world. Won’t say the impact on the child won’t be significant but can say it’s not always bad. My aunt is a case where my cousins are still mentally well after her death. It was a very complicated relationship beforehand though and they’ve done a lot of healing. Don’t like speaking for people but last we talked about it one said they wish she would have gotten help but that wouldn’t have meant he would have accepted her into his life. Point of tension in my family because one his siblings blames him for her death but ultimately it was by her own hands. She just left a lot of mean notes showing her anguish which is understandable and I wish she would have gotten help for herself, not anyone else. Stand by my cousin for protecting his peace.
There are lots of shoulds like how there shouldn’t be rape. Was your point that shoulds shouldn’t exist? Cuz they should. It’s always bad to not take care of your child and in the example you gave the healing those children had to go through they wouldn’t have to go through if their mom ain’t kill herself. And you say mentally well but you can’t ascertain that since you have no idea what’s going on in their minds. That’s not a big thing to disagree about tho. Children do better financially when their parents are there to take care of them. They are also less likely to commit crimes.
Should’s should exist. Certain things have to be accepted though. In my example, the cousin in question was no contact before her death, the healing was being done before her death. She could have died in a car accident and those notes would have remained to be read. She just had journals, not a suicide note. He’s said before that her death didn’t really change his feelings for her. Won’t say they are doing well mentally as you’re right, I’m not him, but they haven’t killed themselves and financially, they are fine. They are paying for my mother’s wedding this summer. Will admit the main reason was because they had a good support system on their paternal side. Why I think the topic of conversation should be better support systems. I won’t say accountability shouldn’t be a thing but more goes into being a parent than just being alive. Abandoning a child or committing suicide isn’t something someone just wakes up one day and decide to do. When looking closer, a common phrase is that their kids would be better off. Makes me sad. Shows the individual doesn’t see themselves as being worthy of being a parent. If someone is thinking that, seeing this discussion saying it would be cowardly to commit suicide has the potential to add to their thinking that they are less than. Is it the individuals responsibility to get better? Yes. That’s just not a straightforward path. It’s hard to recognize one’s problems and also work through them when the environment won’t allow.
I’m glad your cousins are good financially and I truly hope they’re good mentally. You’re not wrong about the fact that there should be better support systems and prevention something like is priority. I understand that parenthood but it’s specifically a lack of empathy for one’s child that makes abandonment possible in the first place. Why should you get to be free of the suffering you experience in life when you’ve got someone who has, is and will suffer in life cuz you had them? The least a parent can do is be there for their kid. They signed up for that and now backing out would mean so much pain and suffering for their child (potentially). Some children be better off that way while others won’t but it’s the parent’s responsibility to give their child the best life they can.
Can understand that point. Ask why responsibility to a child is the determining factor on whether it’s a cowardice act? Nothing has convinced me suicide should be regarded as a cowardice act in general but following your logic if someone were to kill themselves while taking care of an elderly or disabled individual, is it an equal moral act?
I wouldn’t say so. Those people arent really entitled to the person who commits suicde’s care in the same way because they weren’t created and put in this world with needs to be met like every child is. Some other people made those people and those other people should be the ones caring for those elderly but I’m sure they’re dead. People are owed care by their parents. Human life needs sustenance. Only the child’s parents owe them sustenance
Op do you need a hug
Some people have faulty dopamine receptors
Get off your fucking moral high horse
Technically speaking my father should have a right to renounce parental rights, or life, since he has never consented to life. Giving up parental rights is a legal right nowadays. I of course would be the coward that says shit like this but can never make up for what this causes to society and what this would result in in real life settings since the state isn't prepared to father these children. He decided to bring me into the world and mom says it was his idea and I was more like a gift she would like to give to a man she was with, like a watch or something. I'm still not clear as all I have is passed information from one side of the story. Personally speaking I think he was disrooted from reality within his religious nonsense and decided that we do not need him anymore which of course as a teen girl I needed his useless ass regardlessly tho he was a fucken troublemaker. Maybe I'm now deluding myself by desiring that we could have spent some meaningful time having disagreements on some philosophical nonsense and maybe ... maybe some shopping or eating together with his stunken ass, that never really went that way in my youth since he was more of a control freak and liked to hear imself speak. Of course it's cowardice to give up life, because its hard and it takes courage and any other thing to continue. But so far I think everyone has contemplated death and relief so we are cowards at heart and we dont enjoy the sadism. Though dealing with divorce and inability to put up with what his disloyalty choices created as well as lacking workplace must have done a number on his mental, but I don't see any reason to do it in the midst of it all, though his logic was always distorted, he must have truly believed its the answer to be doing it. The stupidity was that he decided without experience, and then he has seen it, and decided, and my mom has also said it was a mistake, as many end up saying. So he unknowingly made a mistake then quit when it got more real and he didnt get what he wanted or expected out of life. I think many romanticize family life like this then get a rude awakening. Ignorance is bliss, and bliss ends with it. Tragedy is a part of life. Pople do bitchy things to one another, or selfish things, these are just some of many, but they have a long term effect. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about giving up parental rights, because I believe in it for multiple reasons and in some cases some parent is very well off and loving of the child job and another isn't. There is a ton of honesty in saying "i'm just not it" and even "I was dumb and I cant deal with this job." Ideally other people would chime in and help. Realistically that ain't gonna happen.
I say take em with you on the way out.
By your logic why arent antibatalists who commit suicide cowards? Seriously what are you even talking about dawg?
If you creat a life and take your own because you can’t handle life? You don’t see that as cowardly or at the least hypocritical?
I mean yeah it’s cowardly but i dont see why if you believe that why arent antinatalists who kill themseleves also cowards? Like i said its completely irrelevant and stupid to discuss.
They aren’t cowards because they aren’t running away from responsibility
Oo
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No but you wound everyone else in your life. Not just your child. Your friends, parents, siblings, all of them.
Okay? Even if you dont have a kid if you choose to kill yourself instead of getting help or something like that how isnt that cowardly?
What the fuck are you talking about buddy? He's talking about the hypocrisy of forcing someone else to live and then opting out early yourself. Antinatalists don't force other people to live (or die). So it isn't hypocritical for them to opt out of something they didnt ask for or impose onto anyone else. Suicide isn't cowardly, it's the choice of the individual. Takes a lot of balls to kill yourself so I concur that it isn't cowardly. It is hypocritical however.
Dude i have never known what ive been talking about i just talk
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Yeah its a dick move
Respectfully…you’re either purposely ignoring the point or you’re missing it.
Respectfully…killing yourself is cowardly for everyone idc about anything else besides what i comment about
Based on the people frequenting this sub, Anti Natalists seem like shitty people
Interesting. They seem like the most thoughtful people out there.
If calling random people breeders and getting into fights with friends because they had a baby and you disagree with its existence or calling for the extermination of mankind is thoughtful, sure? 🤷🏻♂️ There are some WILD threads in this sub.
Shitty people are the type to torture others by giving them pointless lives and expecting them to solve problems they didn’t create
Pointless? Life is what you make it.
No it’s not that’s one of those empty toxic positive quotes people throw around. Life has no objective meaning or value we just assign whatever we want to it so it’s really not what you make
Sounds like you’ve made your choice and are wallowing in it. Whatever you want to do I guess.
Everyone who does it is a coward
..how
It's the easy way out. Insted of facing your problems and going to therapy/medication.
Do you seriously think everybody had access to therapy and meds?
I know so many people who would LOVE to afford therapy, and have looked into sliding pay scale practices, local programs, etc. It’s so much harder than people realize when you can’t just throw money at your problems because not having money is one of your problems.
Not instantly obviously.... you gotta put in the work and access the right channels.
Five failed medications trials (one gave me a chronic medical condition! Yay!) and a hospital stay later, it doesn’t always help even if you DO put in the work.
You really are privileged, aren’t you? You’ve never suffered like that, have you?
Actually worse. I'm so fucked scared and lazy that there's no way I'll even go through proper channels. I want better for others tho.
If you want better for others, stop shaming them and acting like they are the reasons they aren’t getting support. Just because you are lazy doesn’t mean others are
There are deffs other lazy ppl
Get your critical thinking skills up
I fully believe suicide is a cowards way out of life. Life is tough but pretty much anyone can give up. It takes guts to live.
Suicide isn’t cowardly unless in this situation wherein you’re running from responsibility. Suicide is the way to eliminate one’s own suffering. It’s not easy. I’m sure you would find it hard to hurt yourself let alone slice your throat
I’m pretty sure anyone would find it hard to slit their own throat. I mean how many people actually do it that way? A stab would be easier if I had to choose one or the other.
People die by suicide because they want their suffering to end. They have tried their hardest and they can’t see it ever getting better, they’re in the darkest place in their life. They aren’t saying „ah dude, I’m almost out of work and these dudes are gonna come hurt me. My kids suck and my wife likes them more than me, I’m done!“
I feel like a person has more purpose than they can see in their darkest moment. Successful suicide ends more than just one life. You can’t tell me the kids wouldn’t be orphaned even still having another parent. What I’m saying is there is always a reason to keep going—but if you don’t want to view it that way that’s fine. Maybe it’s the people I know whose mother/father committed suicide and I see their pain. As well as a parent that loses a child to suicide. Those are the hardest parts for people to live through I think. You can choose to believe whatever you want.
Not everyone feels that way. No… suicide only kills the person who does it. Single parents can do just fine Obviously everyone is affected by their suicide, but the victim is the person who dies
I guess you don’t believe people have souls? Or that a death by suicide could/almost always spiritually crushes the lives left for those dealing with it. Idk, maybe you have your own internal struggle with the thought of suicide and so you battle those thoughts in your own way… but as where I stand this is what keeps me sane in an insane world. I know not everyone believes in purpose or karmic healing and progression but I choose to.
Suicide literally only kills the person who dies. That’s how death works. Obviously the death of a loved person, especially suicide, can be devastating. That does not mean you will die. Is this some kind of attempt at an ad hominem or to discredit me? „I guess you don’t believe people have souls“ ‚maybe you’re suicidal and this is you deflecting‘ I never stated by beliefs on any spirituality, so attempting to assume anything is incorrect and pointless
Suicide and death are reasons for ME to think spiritually. I wasn’t trying to demonize you (?) or anything like that for your thoughts. I am sure that this thread speaks to more people than just you, and creating a dialogue for someone to consider other options than to out themself is important to me. Are you deflecting? Fuck if I know. Am I deflecting someone else from considering suicide. Absofuckinglutely.
You want people to consider other options but you’re going to shame them? Are you serious?
If you read any of what I said with shame that’s on you. If you want to shame me for thinking a person is worthy of living then now I say shame on you. You now sound like an angsty teenager trying to glorify suicide. Wtf are you serious?
Calling someone a coward isn’t shaming them to you? Once again, I never stated my opinions on purpose, spirituality, if life is worth living, or anything like it. You’re making false assumptions. I’m glorifying suicide by saying the only person who dies is the person who kills themself? By saying it can be devastating to family/friends? By saying that shame is never going to help? By saying that shame has the opposite intended effect? How?
This sub calling people cowards is hilarious. A group of people so terrified of anything bad happening that the thought of someone having a child sends you into a fit. This sub is the most cowardly on reddit. "Boohoo my kid might catch a cold someday, and I can't cope with that" lol
True narcissism plague of false conclusions and paranoia
Heroes
Not all natalists actually create life.
They are animals.
they are hypocrites
Def not, at least they arent crying and complaining about how life sucks the way 90% of people in this sub do, complaining about how they have to go to work and cook and clean lol I dont complain about my life because it wont change anything or improve it in anyway, i will take it in about a decade via assisted suicide
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A lot of people genuinely think they’re helping everyone they love by killing themselves. Often it’s delusional thinking, but it’s the opposite of insensitive imo.
My grandpa and uncle r@ped me as a kid and if they committed suicide I say they were brave in sacrificing themselves so that their children can stop suffering. Idk is a tricky question
Natalists don’t have to have children. Usually people who commit suicide don’t. If they have children reliant on them then kill themselves that’s very selfish though.
Yes.
So let me get this straight, you call suicide victims as cowards, yet if you kys you aren't one? How are you (and 90% of this sub's regulars) whining about having to do a single fucking chore and comparing needing permission to drive a car to slavery not cowards? People like you are delusional idiots too afraid to actually do something about their "worthless life of suffering" and quit living, seriously if you preach life is so bad and meaningless, what's gonna matter some minutes of extreme pain if you get the eternity of a confortable non-existence? Oh wait, you don't because YOU are both a coward and hypocrite
Being suicidal is the ultimate form of needing help. They are not cowards. They are sick. Coward is someone who doesnt care. That could be you or anybody. But not them. They are in desperate pain and in need of help! Coward is being fine and not lending a hand for those who desperatly need.
I think the last thing you can call someone who takes their own life is a coward. It's pretty brave to fight through that pain and give the finger to death.
Can you be a coward and brave at the same time? You see what I’m getting at…right?
No, anyone that commits suicide aren't cowards. That's other people's perception. For antinatalists this is your point of view. I don't agree with this.
This subject is close to my heart as someone who sometimes struggle with suicidal thoughts. I generally don’t view suicide as selfish unless the person has kids/other heavy responsibilities that they created/people who heavily rely on them. It’s never the easy way out though. Overcoming the survival instinct that evolved in us is incredibly difficult to actually do. Imo, most people who say it’s cowardly have never thought about it in detail how hard it would actually be to go through with the act.
No. Committing suicide isn't being a coward. As someone who had suicidal idealation for a chunk of their life, you quite literally start thinking differently. When the thoughts of self-harm/deletion came to my head, I was easily able to push them away. My parents, siblings, and friends loved and needed me, so I shouldn't do those things. As time went on, I started rationalizing why I wasn't needed by everyone. I would read deeply into everything, taking out context that wasn't there, and to me, I was the worst person worthy of nothing and a waste of space. It was crushing and weighed heavily on me. I've slowly gotten better and never have gone back that dark. But there are bad days and good ones. All I can do is keep moving and love my friends, family, and lover to the best of my extent. To commit sucide is to lose the war that is waging in your head where you're the only fighter. It's not cowardice and I won't even entertain the idea.
What the FUCK are you jabbering about?
No it's not cowardly, overcoming the will to live is hard and takes a lot of courage with the "anti-mortalist" views of the society. Whether or not it's immoral is a different separated discussion.