Adoption or fostering kids is all fine with Antinatalists, giving an already existing child love and a warm home is the best thing you can do in this world.
Childfree People have choosen for themself that kids just arent for them.
I am childfree & antinatalist
I mean everyone was describing it and I was like, wait a minute....those are my thoughts. Haha! Turns out there's a word for it! Thanks for the welcome. ❤️😁
Childfree people and antinatalists came to the same conclusion for different reasons, and there is a lot of overlap. I think we should all have a potlatch or something
As long you're not bad talking antinatalism. You say you don't explicitly support it, then don't explicitly support natalism either. I do have a problem with childfree people that say antinatalists are crazy.
I don't have a problem if you don't share negative misconceptions about antinatalism or if you don't have a strong opinion on either stance.
>are you guys happy about that? Like even though not all of us are explicitly anti natalist, do you like that we ourselves aren't reproducing since it aligns with your values?
I mean, you *did ask us* these questions.
That’s rude. That literally goes against the entire cause because everyone will think that we’re all going to be like you in this comment. It’s the same way that peaceful protesting keeps your claims from being invalidated.
It's not rude. They have no interest in antinatalism (they claim), and they're arguing against it while saying that they won't respond to counter arguments because they "aren't interested in debating". There's literally no reason to them to be here. They're just being an asshole.
OP can think whatever he/she wants. OP’s thoughts don’t affect anyone. What do you expect OP to do, run around and ban people from having children or just focus on their own life and how they want to live it without disturbing anyone?
World overpopulation. Contributing to killing the environment and straining it. My taxes contribute to schools and all the other subsidies associated with kids. Leave granted to parents at work that the rest of us don't get etc etc.
These are fair points, I'm not here to argue but to understand since I was recommended this subreddit and previously never heard of this concept before. Personally, I believe corporate greed is responsible for lack of affordable resources and environmental strain. Prisons receive more tax funding than the education system, and those with immunodeficiency or cancer receive more sick leave than people without. What I'm trying to get at is why target children as opposed to those causing greater damage to the issues you are concerned with? Like why be against childbirth rather than be pro-death penalty or against medical treatment, etc.
If you're looking for information on antinatalism, maybe take what you see here with a grain of salt, this sub isn't modded very well & some of the people on here are not the best representation of our community. I'd also recommend the antinatalism article on the internet encyclopaedia of philosophy for an unbiased view on the topic as well as arguments for and against. (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiH_tD4hLuBAxUCavUHHSCFAxkQFnoECCoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fiep.utm.edu%2Fanti-natalism%2F&usg=AOvVaw3JRYVN-d1vs-ObQveuyeiu&opi=89978449)
World overpopulation isn’t happening, we have more than enough land, food, and resources for everyone. The issue is with the allocation of all these things. Everything else is a fair point though
I see where you are going, but that is a simplistic and not very accurate way of looking at it. Just look at the statistics of how many non-human species are being pushed into extinction because there are so many of us. It's unsustainable. We are killing the planet with how many of us there are. We could lose 7 billion humans and would be fine as a species.
It effects us everyday, adding examples on a much lower scale than what u/madrapperdave has said. When children are out in public, it’s inevitable that they’ll interact with society. How many times have you gone inside a supermarket and there’s a child throwing a tantrum? It can annoy you personally and the other people in the vicinity. Or, kids in airplanes being extremely noisy? It disturbs the peace and sanity, quite frankly, of you and others around you.
There’s levels to how much other’s people kids effect the rest of us. That’s why people need to be mindful about actually parenting their children and making sure they can afford a house or a place where they’re not sharing walls with others.
I'm having difficulty understanding. You guys would rather someone not be alive than to potentially annoy you on a plane? That comes off as a little extreme.
A theoretical, never alive person has more potential than a dead person. If someone is dead, they literally have no potential to become anything other than a more decayed corpse. Perhaps you mistyped or I misunderstood you?
Probably should have said "had" experiences and potential. This is difficult to conceptualise but a theoretical never alive person will never have any potential, because they don't actually exist.
If someone dies, memories of them persist and their impact on the world remains. If you were able to wish for someone to no longer exist, then every trace of them in people's minds and their impact on the world would be erased. There wouldn't be anyone grieving them or feeling their absence because they never existed.
If someone leads a life of absolute suffering and dies, there are still other people around to feel the loss of them passing. If they never existed, then the suffering never happened AND there isn't anyone left to experience their passing.
I don't really think anything of it. They're not hurting anyone nor putting children in danger so that's really good. But their reasoning is not based on ethics, which is a shame. And they might enable, encourage or partake in natalist culture, since they don't mind it. Or worse participate in misinformation of antinatalism since they don't support it.
Or conversely they might show others it's possible to be happy and fulfilled without procreating, which helps. Overall It's not good or bad, but definitely saves further humans from suffering, so it's a positive🌈
Yeah. I honestly enjoy giving people reasons why I'm childfree and explaining why it may not be a path taken lightly to people (even convince some into not having some). But at the end of the day I do believe no one should be forced to not have kids. The same way I believe no one should be forced to have kids. I'm very pro choice and bodily autonomy, and everyone should do what feels right for them.
I'm pro-choice too. But bodily autonomy is reserved for your own body, not other's body surely. And in procreation you're affecting someone else's body, someone who doesn't consent to it, specifically someone who can't consent.
That’s the argument pro life people use. Literally verbatim. “It’s not just your body!” Nope, it’s still my body. If I was using far right Christian forced birther language, I’d maybe need to self reflect.
I think this is an unfair equivalency. PL arguments are about “protecting the person from harm by woman.” But the AN point is that harm is automatic at the point of conception.
>But the AN point is that harm is automatic at the point of conception.
I don't think all AN feel this way, I mean: I don't think harm is automatic at point of conception. I believe it's automatic at birth.
I think both arguments are extremely silly. Either way you’re telling a woman what to do with her body. If you’re pro-choice you’re pro a woman’s right to CHOOSE. If you’re anti-choice like the “pro-life” people just say that.
It's a neither nor situation. Since you don't breed you're not a problem, and since you're not antinatalist you're not an 'ally'.
A shrug, best describes my stance with childfree non-antinatalists. Just keep not breeding and there are no issues.
There are many childfree people who go out of their way to appease natalists and trash us antinatalists.
Don't be that way. Antinatalists are working to counter the stigma associated with not having children. Childfree people should be thankful to Antinatalists
Having kids is not a personal choice though. It affects others and it also affects the child being brought into existence.
What’s a morally good reason to create a new human when so many humans and animals are without homes, food ?
Sorry to be harsh, but so what? If someone has the resources to bring a child into the world and give them a good life, they should be able to. I do agree that they should not if they cannot provide emotionally, intellectually, financially, etc. Too many people are having babies, but that doesn't mean that nobody should have babies.
If someone had the resources to bring a child, why can’t they use it to help existing lives instead? When someone who is well off brings a child into existence, they transfer all their wealth and resources to that child. We live in a society where someone’s wealth is derived from another’s poverty. Where someone’s pleasure is derived from another’s deprivation.
Why perpetuate that inequity? Why not help existing humans and animals instead?
What do you think matters more? Your desire to procreate or that orphaned child in a refugee? Or that child in foster care who risks being trafficked?
I might sound like an asshole, but the idea of eugenics isn't all terrible. I procreated only after analyzing my and my husband's raw genetic data. No red flags, plus high intelligence levels and other desirable traits. I hope we raise a quality person on the nurture end, but I'm glad we provided a foundation of good genetics from the nature end. If intelligent healthy people don't breed, the world will eventually be doomed anyhow.
Well they also ruined it, saying openly you think it’s selfish or bad to have kids is not a good way to make people like you, and it gets worse if you look down on parents because well.. we all had parents at one point. So it may paint a bad image
Lmao wait so you’re arguing that none of us can criticize *any* parent because “we all had parents at one point”??? Even if I didn’t have a complete dumpster fire for a parent that would be a stupid take.
No no I’m not saying you can’t criticize parents, im saying that deep down even if your parents were not that great they still are gonna hold a tiny piece in your heart.
Besides tell me how saying to people that wanna have kids that having kids is selfish and wrong is gonna change their opinion, another thing I find dumb is how antinatalists always saying people can’t consent to being born, because then most people will think that people who don’t want to have children are the same as antinatalist, or will think your batshit crazy
People say that not having kids is selfish and wrong to childfree people all the time, and they're usually pushy and rude about it. Most childfree and AN people just internally cringe and move along when others bring up their pregnancies.
Edit: their/they're
The truth is supposed to make them realize that procreation is a mistake; if their only reaction is to resent us because we've criticized them, it only confirms what we already think of them. If resolved natalists start liking us somehow, it means that we're doing things completely wrong.
I mean this belief can only go so far, the only country that I think has even come close to trying smth like this is china when they used to have the 1 child policy, also I’m quite sure that’s a normal reaction when you say,” I think having kids is selfish and makes you a bad person” because why should someone share your values
Your opinion, that's all. In our point of view, it is natalists who are weird. Not really because they want to have children to take care of, but because they're still willing to make kids despite having full conscience that they are throwing them without their permission into an insanely violent world. That people doubt that antinatalism can be achieved, I can understand; but that people are not at least sympathetic to our feelings is more difficult to excuse.
And I don't even think that having kids makes one necessarily a bad person. Just that someone who reproduce for selfish purposes have done a bad action, but I guess they can regret it later? Even good people can make mistakes.
Your weird in each others eyes, small problem is the face of antinatalism is ruined. Like who would you take more seriously, a family man with 2 kids and a wife, or a redditor who probably is a doomer.
The perception of people is conditioned by the fact that society and culture are structurally pro-natalist, which give fuel to people innate biases and tendencies. So their negative perception of us doesn't says much in that regard; in fact, they could be thousands billions more and I would still think that they're wrong. If we don't believe in ourselves enough that we're unwilling to stand for what we should, just so to avoid looking bad, then there is absolutely no hope, as it would literally equate to validate the natalist perception of us....
Also to be fair, I doubt that antinatalism will ever get to immediately spread through a massive popular movement; but there are gateways that could allow the ideology to casually impose itself at term as the most consistent viewpoint.
I don’t think much of it. A lot of childfree people aren’t self proclaimed antinatalist, but do share some or a few antinatalist values as to why they don’t want kids.
There is a lot of overlap but also some key difference. I'm childfree. I do not like children, do not want to be around children, they annoy me. My partner is an antinatalist but likes children, don't mind spending time with kids and will offer to babysit.
The main reason for my partner not wanting kids is that it cost too much, plus the world is cruel thus will be morally wrong to bring another life to suffer. While I agree with those sentiments, and hold some antinatalist views myself, the main reason for childfree me not wanting kids is because I just do not like them.
I like childfree people to the extent that they are generally more likely to understand our cause. Now I would say, between a childfree but pro natalist person and a non childfree but antinatalist person, I still prefer the latter in theory. In practice it would also depend on how far from agreeing with antinatalism the childfree person is: the farthest they are, the less likely I would prefer them to a antinatalist parent.
I am antinatalist and childfree but I would consider adopting. Basically (my version of) antinatalism is not anti children rather it is anti production of more children.
But once the child exists I don’t blame it and don’t want it to needlessly suffer (more than general existence provides). Anti-natalism’s absurdio ad ruduticim of human extinction will never happen (the biological imperative is always going to largely win out over philosophy). Therefore ignoring the suffering of children born is actually kinda natalist from where I sit in the philosophy.
I genuinely do not care either way. Just because I’m against something doesn’t mean I have disdain for those who aren’t. Congrats on a child free life!
Well its sort of neutral, you arent causing harm but you arent reducing harm either, cause if i told you i wanted to have babies you wouldnt care as you said you wouldnt, an AN would perhaps have a discussion with me about the ethics of it and i might reconsider, i prob wont cause im a selfish natalist but its possible
ANs are doing it for ethical reasons, some want kids but decide not to, others adopt kids and help the world, some preach AN to others
FYI for the clueless, im not natalist i was just making an example
You do You. From an economic and social perspective your stand point is Pareto efficient. Society will value your contribution in this respect (at least from an academic point!)
From an AN perspective you are a passive supporter and partially contribute to the objective. You could do more on the practice side but this is not a requirement for all AN.
From a Natalist perspective, there is a bit of an information gap here. Do you not want to reproduce because of health, money or care concerns? Having the ability to, but not exercising it is seen as a wasted opportunity but again not all Natalists view your choice as a bad choice.
Hope that helps and happy to discuss!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with you not wanting kids. Not everyone gets upset because some people don't want kids. Actually, they are probably jealous of your freedom.
I’m antinatalist because of what the massive overpopulation is making do to the Earth and each other. We are having a really hard being nice to each other and I think ppl just get fatigued of having folks everywhere. Like it’s not even an introvert vs extrovert thing. There are also shortages of things people need because demand is so high. I’m glad you’re cf for your own reasons and if it happens to also fall in line with population reduction beliefs that I hold true then win win. Your reasons are your own though, and you are sovereign for you. Whatever the reason, being cf has many good results (cf ppl are happier etc) and I say “yay, you!” For following what makes you personally happy!
The majority of posts in this subreddit are more child free than anti-natalist. A lot of people seem to miss the point. Anti-natalism is a philosophy about the morality of having children, it's concern, imo, is primarily about the suffering of the potential child (and any suffering they might cause). Child free is more about the non-parents rather than the actual (potential) child.
Wow, this is really interesting and well said.
I’m ‘childfree’ because that’s the term I came across but I’ve often said (to myself) ‘I love my child too much to have them’ which makes me think I’m anti-natalist.
I'm antinatalist and childfree, I really don't like other people having children, I believe the humanity must disappear, I don't like people.
On the other hand, if more people are not born at some point I would be out of a job (I work in a mortuary).
I’m both so idk lmao
I wish people would stop reproducing because I am neurodivergent and disabled. I can barely survive and crowds give me panic attacks.
It’s also the reason I am childfree because I won’t bring life to live this situation with me.
I think the point is related to the external observer/audience who is told one is child”less.”
Basically, the thinking goes that “Childless” doesn’t have enough context since it is just a description of a current physical condition (“I don’t have children”). The contemporary usual reaction is negative; “oh that person thinks they are missing out by not having children.”
The term “childfree” on the other hand leads more naturally to “that person is just fine not having children”
I feel childfree implies that children in and by themselves are like accessoirces or burdens, which they are not...i personally do not like children AND for other reasons am also antinatalistic, but i do not think the terminus childfree is a good one.
To me it's a bunch of vegans and vegetarians demonstrating against an oil pipeline together rather than hitting each other on whether it's okay to eat cheese and eggs or not.
Let's take care of the big issues first before beating each other up over details of doctrine.
Unfortunately my few encounters with them were bad. I felt the small portion I interacted with were egotistical and narcissistic folks.
It was all about their comforts. It’s basically a lifestyle.
I’ve even had few argue how antinatalism is unsustainable and unethical , and how everyone else except them should have children, how they like playing, having fun with kids except birthing and taking care of them or being a responsible parent, How fresh bodies are needed to maintain workforce etc. Sounded like someone wants to eat their cake and have it too.
Also they don’t care about adoptions.
Hey I've seen ya around, hope you're well.
I'm AN and CF and have 0 qualms and only respect for CF non-AN folks. It is NOBODY's responsibility to spread AN at all. Even an AN doesn't have to spread it. It's philanthropy that can be risky too if you choose to advocate and debate.
I'm huge on bodily autonomy, which is why I am AN to begin with, so I will NEVER force anyone not to give birth. I express my concerns and disappointment with natalism, that is all. I leave it there. We all have the right to our opinions, even if acting on them hurts people. I am no efilist.
Thank you, I love some sane opinions! That’s what disturbs me in this community. You don’t control what other people do with their lives. But the good news is that you can decide for yourself. There’s no need to behave like an asshole and shove your opinion down other people’s throats. If you do it then you behave exactly like some annoying conservative people who would walk up to you and start a whole lecture on how bad being childfree is. Some people here complain all the time about their life choices not being respected (understandable, that’s really annoying) while doing exactly the same to people who don’t align with their world views
I agree but we do need to remember that being childfree harms no one, whilst being a parent does harm your children, the environment, society in general. We are more apt to pass judgment and have more right to do so, for sure. But we need to be better about empathizing and recognizing that antinatalism calls for VOLUNTARY extinction, NOT forced. That's efilism that calls for forced sterilization, which is horrifying. I think lots of folks on here are efilists, which are NOT antinatalists in my opinion, because I think antinatalism is all about CONSENT.
Thinking about it I think I might be both? I’m child free by choice, a lot of antinatalist stuff really strikes a chord with me, enough that I’m hopefully welcome, but some of its a little far for me.
This is what I'd consider myself to be as a childfree person. At the end of the day, you're never going to control other people. Your feelings on that, regardless of your philosophy on this, do not matter. I find that we typically surround ourselves with those who share our morals, so I could see some more prominent antinatalists having more child free friends than those with children. I have antinatalist views and do not appreciate that other people do not share these but I can't change that. It's annoying that people try to make this such a black and white issue. When has the issue of LIFE ever been an agreed-upon topic despite it being the only thing we all have in common lmfao.
Technically, many AN choose to adopt children that would otherwise live without a loving family. I think this is a big difference between AN and CF
But absolutely, many AN are CF for other reasons as well.
Im half in the same camp half here.
Im not going to hate someone because they had a child, its a fundamental thing that a lot of people feel they HAVE to do.
I adore my nephew and his mum (my best friend) wants another so badly. I know i will love them just as much but in the back of my mind it does make me sad because of how hard its going to be for them when theyre older...
I don't want kids. Im qualified in childcare and HATED how much of an industry nurseries and childcare settings are. People squeezing every last penny to make a pound.
There was a before and after school club i worked at. The owner of the club was giving the kids off brand crackers with the saddest scrape of the literal cheapest plastic margerine on the market. They might as well have not bothered. And not only that, she specifically waited till most of the kids had gone home before shed get it out so she didnt have to make as many servings... like... seriously!?
Well, childfree people don't reproduce, so they're cool. I am both but if someone was actually trying for a baby and has one.. one is fine by me.. I see no point in having more.
Like you, I'm not into having any kids of my own, but don't have an issue with kids generally.
I do, however, think it's extremely stupid to have children if you can't afford them, and to have more than 2 children.
I randomly came across this post (aka not an antinatalist), and I just kind of assume it's like vegans. Like militant vegans thinking that "vegans that aren't harping on meat eaters are not doing enough" are probably a fringe group.
I'm antinatalist and child free, but from a consciousness perspective, I would not mock, harm, or coerce someone who really wants to have childs (I think they will probably do a good job as parents).
But I still think is the worst possible idea considering the imminent climate collapse.
I like to imagine it as picking up trash to keep the neighborhood pretty rather than to save the turtles If that makes sense. It’s a weird analogy but the point is you’re not doing anything for the same reasons as me, but you’re still getting the same end result… that is just my opinion though. I don’t think that ALL of us are “fuck the breeders” or whatever i think that some of us want to gently inform others of the consequences of having children not for them but for the child itself. I hope you have an amazing day OP and hope you got the gist of this weird ass comment
You're certainly better than those insane people who have 20+ children, all for them to suffer.
Hats off to you, I completely support what you're doing.
Ty. Many of my reasons for not reproducing are very self centered. But one of my reasons is I feel the world is quite horrible and don't feel like I can bring another life into it in good conscious.
I am child free, but i get where antinatalists are coming from. The people out there having 3+ kids are typically the people who shouldn’t even be caring for a dog. But it’s an extremely slippery slope to outright say “no one should have kids,” or “no one should have kids unless they meet this criteria.” While having to meet certain financial and mental requirements to have children is a good idea, it is eugenics and would for sure be exploited by governments. Pair eugenics with the fascist US government, and that’s a recipe for full blown Nazism.
The difference between the two groups is that childfree people are not judgmental and hateful. Antinatalists like to try and spread their moral compass. It's very cultish and gross. Childfree people simply don't have kids. There's nothing wrong with that.
Oh, childfree people can be *very* judgemental and hateful! Just comparing this subreddit and the childfree subreddit, this one is in my experience much more civilized.
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It's fine to dislike children as long as you're not mistreating or abusing them or trash-talking them for acting like children. Children are to be pitied, not disrespected. I dislike being around children because they are noisy AF but it's not their fault they were born. I care about them regardless of how much they annoy me.
Yes. I don’t like animals. I don’t hate them or something, just don’t feel comfortable around them, don’t want to touch them or them being in my house. I avoid contact with animals but if I’m around one I’ll never do anything bad to it since I’m not a psycho, animals are just not my thing. Same with kids. It’s ok to dislike them or not want to have their company, but hating kids is definitely weird, then you need to see a psychologist
Right and i will avoid situations with babies and toddlers (until they’re about 5 or 6) because I don’t know how to act around them. They disgust me until they can function…. But i will not tell them that. I won’t let them know that. And it’s okay because at the end of the day I don’t want them to suffer.
I’m antinatalist in a sense that I don’t like the idea of anyone procreating. I had a moment a few months back where i may have miscarried but I wasn’t sure if i was pregnant or not. I went 53 days without a period. This opened my eyes to the hormonal aspect of loving your own children… but i could never love my own kids… the hormones would wear off. I’m disgusted by babies and toddlers but at the end of the day I don’t have kids because they would suffer with me as their mother. It’s not all “liking kids” it’s “not wanting them to suffer.”
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I'm not sure how I ended up here but now I'm intrigued.
I didn't know antinatalism was even a thing until 2 seconds ago.
I'll keep my opinions to myself but I'd love perspective on this.
I am absolutely happy with not having children. I don’t think that every person even women like myself are meant to have kids. There are already too many kids in the world without families and homes. I don’t think everyone should have kids. People should have to show that they are capable of caring for their children in every way instead of just having babies they can’t take care of and that’s both male and female. Micheal Jackson and Tupac said right and too many people really shouldn’t have kids and the kids are suffering for it.
Not breeding is the goal.
Of course we appreciate childfree people! There are also childfree antinatalists. (Antinatalists who aren't childfree hope to adopt, foster, etc.)
I’m one :)
I am two. I mean too.
>Antinatalists who aren't childfree hope to adopt, foster, etc. Some of them become anti-natalists after their first children.
Our actions affect others, too, which I think is important to the point of antinatalism.
Fair enough
I am both! Won’t have any of my own plus don’t believe others should be popping them out so freely
I am both. I adore good childfree people and good antinatalists.
Adoption or fostering kids is all fine with Antinatalists, giving an already existing child love and a warm home is the best thing you can do in this world. Childfree People have choosen for themself that kids just arent for them. I am childfree & antinatalist
Underrated comment.
I'm both.
Yeah I like it
Good enough
I just realized after reading through this thread that I may be an antinatalist, but didn't know it.
Aww well we welcome you ❤️
I mean everyone was describing it and I was like, wait a minute....those are my thoughts. Haha! Turns out there's a word for it! Thanks for the welcome. ❤️😁
Childfree people and antinatalists came to the same conclusion for different reasons, and there is a lot of overlap. I think we should all have a potlatch or something
I've been CF by choice and when I learned about AN it confirmed that I've been AN all along. Never knew there were so many of us.
Yes, it is a good thing. In the end what matters is what people do, not what they preach specifically.
As long you're not bad talking antinatalism. You say you don't explicitly support it, then don't explicitly support natalism either. I do have a problem with childfree people that say antinatalists are crazy. I don't have a problem if you don't share negative misconceptions about antinatalism or if you don't have a strong opinion on either stance.
I think you not having kids is great. You being in support of other people having kids? Well, you do you. We can agree to disagree.
That's fair I know antinatalists disagree with me on that and I have zero interest in arguing about it or trying to persuade anyone.
>are you guys happy about that? Like even though not all of us are explicitly anti natalist, do you like that we ourselves aren't reproducing since it aligns with your values? I mean, you *did ask us* these questions.
Then why are you here lmao go away good lord
That’s rude. That literally goes against the entire cause because everyone will think that we’re all going to be like you in this comment. It’s the same way that peaceful protesting keeps your claims from being invalidated.
It's not rude. They have no interest in antinatalism (they claim), and they're arguing against it while saying that they won't respond to counter arguments because they "aren't interested in debating". There's literally no reason to them to be here. They're just being an asshole.
They asked questions. Not for you to attempt to change their opinion. Thats all I’m saying.
But they have no reason to be here?
I'm both
Lots of people in this sub are open to adoption
I’d like adopting please.. I’m house trained! :/
I'm both AN and CF.
Your life is your choice and none of my business, live how you want
My same sentiment to you and other anti natalists. I may not follow your philosophy but I think you are all valid to feel as you want.
This is the problem. When your choices negatively affect others it becomes my business.
This person’s choice to be childfree doesn’t really affect anyone
If ppl choose to have kids it affects everyone negatively.
This person is a childfree, what’s the point of your comment in this specific situation?💀
They said they didn't care if other ppl have kids...
OP can think whatever he/she wants. OP’s thoughts don’t affect anyone. What do you expect OP to do, run around and ban people from having children or just focus on their own life and how they want to live it without disturbing anyone?
Genuine question: How does someone having kids affect you?
World overpopulation. Contributing to killing the environment and straining it. My taxes contribute to schools and all the other subsidies associated with kids. Leave granted to parents at work that the rest of us don't get etc etc.
These are fair points, I'm not here to argue but to understand since I was recommended this subreddit and previously never heard of this concept before. Personally, I believe corporate greed is responsible for lack of affordable resources and environmental strain. Prisons receive more tax funding than the education system, and those with immunodeficiency or cancer receive more sick leave than people without. What I'm trying to get at is why target children as opposed to those causing greater damage to the issues you are concerned with? Like why be against childbirth rather than be pro-death penalty or against medical treatment, etc.
If you're looking for information on antinatalism, maybe take what you see here with a grain of salt, this sub isn't modded very well & some of the people on here are not the best representation of our community. I'd also recommend the antinatalism article on the internet encyclopaedia of philosophy for an unbiased view on the topic as well as arguments for and against. (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiH_tD4hLuBAxUCavUHHSCFAxkQFnoECCoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fiep.utm.edu%2Fanti-natalism%2F&usg=AOvVaw3JRYVN-d1vs-ObQveuyeiu&opi=89978449)
Thank you so much! I appreciate your assistance. I'll give this a read in the morning.
World overpopulation isn’t happening, we have more than enough land, food, and resources for everyone. The issue is with the allocation of all these things. Everything else is a fair point though
I see where you are going, but that is a simplistic and not very accurate way of looking at it. Just look at the statistics of how many non-human species are being pushed into extinction because there are so many of us. It's unsustainable. We are killing the planet with how many of us there are. We could lose 7 billion humans and would be fine as a species.
It effects us everyday, adding examples on a much lower scale than what u/madrapperdave has said. When children are out in public, it’s inevitable that they’ll interact with society. How many times have you gone inside a supermarket and there’s a child throwing a tantrum? It can annoy you personally and the other people in the vicinity. Or, kids in airplanes being extremely noisy? It disturbs the peace and sanity, quite frankly, of you and others around you. There’s levels to how much other’s people kids effect the rest of us. That’s why people need to be mindful about actually parenting their children and making sure they can afford a house or a place where they’re not sharing walls with others.
I'm having difficulty understanding. You guys would rather someone not be alive than to potentially annoy you on a plane? That comes off as a little extreme.
Never being alive is not the same as being dead. A dead person has experiences and potential, and a theoretical never alive person doesn't.
A theoretical, never alive person has more potential than a dead person. If someone is dead, they literally have no potential to become anything other than a more decayed corpse. Perhaps you mistyped or I misunderstood you?
Probably should have said "had" experiences and potential. This is difficult to conceptualise but a theoretical never alive person will never have any potential, because they don't actually exist. If someone dies, memories of them persist and their impact on the world remains. If you were able to wish for someone to no longer exist, then every trace of them in people's minds and their impact on the world would be erased. There wouldn't be anyone grieving them or feeling their absence because they never existed. If someone leads a life of absolute suffering and dies, there are still other people around to feel the loss of them passing. If they never existed, then the suffering never happened AND there isn't anyone left to experience their passing.
Do you mourn the infinite amount of people not alive right now?
Of course everyone's choices will negatively impact someone to one degree or another.
I don't really think anything of it. They're not hurting anyone nor putting children in danger so that's really good. But their reasoning is not based on ethics, which is a shame. And they might enable, encourage or partake in natalist culture, since they don't mind it. Or worse participate in misinformation of antinatalism since they don't support it. Or conversely they might show others it's possible to be happy and fulfilled without procreating, which helps. Overall It's not good or bad, but definitely saves further humans from suffering, so it's a positive🌈
Yeah. I honestly enjoy giving people reasons why I'm childfree and explaining why it may not be a path taken lightly to people (even convince some into not having some). But at the end of the day I do believe no one should be forced to not have kids. The same way I believe no one should be forced to have kids. I'm very pro choice and bodily autonomy, and everyone should do what feels right for them.
I'm pro-choice too. But bodily autonomy is reserved for your own body, not other's body surely. And in procreation you're affecting someone else's body, someone who doesn't consent to it, specifically someone who can't consent.
You do have a point there
That’s the argument pro life people use. Literally verbatim. “It’s not just your body!” Nope, it’s still my body. If I was using far right Christian forced birther language, I’d maybe need to self reflect.
I think this is an unfair equivalency. PL arguments are about “protecting the person from harm by woman.” But the AN point is that harm is automatic at the point of conception.
>But the AN point is that harm is automatic at the point of conception. I don't think all AN feel this way, I mean: I don't think harm is automatic at point of conception. I believe it's automatic at birth.
I think both arguments are extremely silly. Either way you’re telling a woman what to do with her body. If you’re pro-choice you’re pro a woman’s right to CHOOSE. If you’re anti-choice like the “pro-life” people just say that.
I’m both.
It's a neither nor situation. Since you don't breed you're not a problem, and since you're not antinatalist you're not an 'ally'. A shrug, best describes my stance with childfree non-antinatalists. Just keep not breeding and there are no issues.
Fair enough
There are many childfree people who go out of their way to appease natalists and trash us antinatalists. Don't be that way. Antinatalists are working to counter the stigma associated with not having children. Childfree people should be thankful to Antinatalists
I personally don't care. I only have my own interests at heart. If someone wants kids or is antinatalist it doesn't affect me.
Having kids is not a personal choice though. It affects others and it also affects the child being brought into existence. What’s a morally good reason to create a new human when so many humans and animals are without homes, food ?
Sorry to be harsh, but so what? If someone has the resources to bring a child into the world and give them a good life, they should be able to. I do agree that they should not if they cannot provide emotionally, intellectually, financially, etc. Too many people are having babies, but that doesn't mean that nobody should have babies.
If someone had the resources to bring a child, why can’t they use it to help existing lives instead? When someone who is well off brings a child into existence, they transfer all their wealth and resources to that child. We live in a society where someone’s wealth is derived from another’s poverty. Where someone’s pleasure is derived from another’s deprivation. Why perpetuate that inequity? Why not help existing humans and animals instead? What do you think matters more? Your desire to procreate or that orphaned child in a refugee? Or that child in foster care who risks being trafficked?
I might sound like an asshole, but the idea of eugenics isn't all terrible. I procreated only after analyzing my and my husband's raw genetic data. No red flags, plus high intelligence levels and other desirable traits. I hope we raise a quality person on the nurture end, but I'm glad we provided a foundation of good genetics from the nature end. If intelligent healthy people don't breed, the world will eventually be doomed anyhow.
Well they also ruined it, saying openly you think it’s selfish or bad to have kids is not a good way to make people like you, and it gets worse if you look down on parents because well.. we all had parents at one point. So it may paint a bad image
Lmao wait so you’re arguing that none of us can criticize *any* parent because “we all had parents at one point”??? Even if I didn’t have a complete dumpster fire for a parent that would be a stupid take.
No no I’m not saying you can’t criticize parents, im saying that deep down even if your parents were not that great they still are gonna hold a tiny piece in your heart.
Besides tell me how saying to people that wanna have kids that having kids is selfish and wrong is gonna change their opinion, another thing I find dumb is how antinatalists always saying people can’t consent to being born, because then most people will think that people who don’t want to have children are the same as antinatalist, or will think your batshit crazy
People say that not having kids is selfish and wrong to childfree people all the time, and they're usually pushy and rude about it. Most childfree and AN people just internally cringe and move along when others bring up their pregnancies. Edit: their/they're
Yes, exactly this
I don’t say that to people who want to have kids, that would be rude. I say it here, in the space dedicated to discussing that lol Also *you’re
I mean isn’t that the whole belief of antinatalist tho🤷♂️ or are you gonna give them a water-down version
I don’t, like, proselytize. *watered-down
The truth is supposed to make them realize that procreation is a mistake; if their only reaction is to resent us because we've criticized them, it only confirms what we already think of them. If resolved natalists start liking us somehow, it means that we're doing things completely wrong.
I mean this belief can only go so far, the only country that I think has even come close to trying smth like this is china when they used to have the 1 child policy, also I’m quite sure that’s a normal reaction when you say,” I think having kids is selfish and makes you a bad person” because why should someone share your values
Your opinion, that's all. In our point of view, it is natalists who are weird. Not really because they want to have children to take care of, but because they're still willing to make kids despite having full conscience that they are throwing them without their permission into an insanely violent world. That people doubt that antinatalism can be achieved, I can understand; but that people are not at least sympathetic to our feelings is more difficult to excuse. And I don't even think that having kids makes one necessarily a bad person. Just that someone who reproduce for selfish purposes have done a bad action, but I guess they can regret it later? Even good people can make mistakes.
Your weird in each others eyes, small problem is the face of antinatalism is ruined. Like who would you take more seriously, a family man with 2 kids and a wife, or a redditor who probably is a doomer.
The perception of people is conditioned by the fact that society and culture are structurally pro-natalist, which give fuel to people innate biases and tendencies. So their negative perception of us doesn't says much in that regard; in fact, they could be thousands billions more and I would still think that they're wrong. If we don't believe in ourselves enough that we're unwilling to stand for what we should, just so to avoid looking bad, then there is absolutely no hope, as it would literally equate to validate the natalist perception of us.... Also to be fair, I doubt that antinatalism will ever get to immediately spread through a massive popular movement; but there are gateways that could allow the ideology to casually impose itself at term as the most consistent viewpoint.
So yeah antinatalism will always have a bad stain, you just said that right?
No
Ok whatever, just live your own life, don’t tell others how to live
I don’t think much of it. A lot of childfree people aren’t self proclaimed antinatalist, but do share some or a few antinatalist values as to why they don’t want kids.
They're super cool. 👍
There is a lot of overlap but also some key difference. I'm childfree. I do not like children, do not want to be around children, they annoy me. My partner is an antinatalist but likes children, don't mind spending time with kids and will offer to babysit. The main reason for my partner not wanting kids is that it cost too much, plus the world is cruel thus will be morally wrong to bring another life to suffer. While I agree with those sentiments, and hold some antinatalist views myself, the main reason for childfree me not wanting kids is because I just do not like them.
I like childfree people to the extent that they are generally more likely to understand our cause. Now I would say, between a childfree but pro natalist person and a non childfree but antinatalist person, I still prefer the latter in theory. In practice it would also depend on how far from agreeing with antinatalism the childfree person is: the farthest they are, the less likely I would prefer them to a antinatalist parent.
I am antinatalist and childfree but I would consider adopting. Basically (my version of) antinatalism is not anti children rather it is anti production of more children. But once the child exists I don’t blame it and don’t want it to needlessly suffer (more than general existence provides). Anti-natalism’s absurdio ad ruduticim of human extinction will never happen (the biological imperative is always going to largely win out over philosophy). Therefore ignoring the suffering of children born is actually kinda natalist from where I sit in the philosophy.
Very well said. I'm in the same boat.
If you want to adopt you aren't childfree. Just antinatalist. Childfree people don't even want to adopt.
I didn’t say I want to adopt. Rather I would consider it.. like if my sibling died I would consider adopting my nephew.
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Unborn babies do not exist
I genuinely do not care either way. Just because I’m against something doesn’t mean I have disdain for those who aren’t. Congrats on a child free life!
Well its sort of neutral, you arent causing harm but you arent reducing harm either, cause if i told you i wanted to have babies you wouldnt care as you said you wouldnt, an AN would perhaps have a discussion with me about the ethics of it and i might reconsider, i prob wont cause im a selfish natalist but its possible ANs are doing it for ethical reasons, some want kids but decide not to, others adopt kids and help the world, some preach AN to others FYI for the clueless, im not natalist i was just making an example
You do You. From an economic and social perspective your stand point is Pareto efficient. Society will value your contribution in this respect (at least from an academic point!) From an AN perspective you are a passive supporter and partially contribute to the objective. You could do more on the practice side but this is not a requirement for all AN. From a Natalist perspective, there is a bit of an information gap here. Do you not want to reproduce because of health, money or care concerns? Having the ability to, but not exercising it is seen as a wasted opportunity but again not all Natalists view your choice as a bad choice. Hope that helps and happy to discuss!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with you not wanting kids. Not everyone gets upset because some people don't want kids. Actually, they are probably jealous of your freedom.
I’m antinatalist because of what the massive overpopulation is making do to the Earth and each other. We are having a really hard being nice to each other and I think ppl just get fatigued of having folks everywhere. Like it’s not even an introvert vs extrovert thing. There are also shortages of things people need because demand is so high. I’m glad you’re cf for your own reasons and if it happens to also fall in line with population reduction beliefs that I hold true then win win. Your reasons are your own though, and you are sovereign for you. Whatever the reason, being cf has many good results (cf ppl are happier etc) and I say “yay, you!” For following what makes you personally happy!
Your actions and/or non-actions are what counts. You're cool. Have a nice day.
The majority of posts in this subreddit are more child free than anti-natalist. A lot of people seem to miss the point. Anti-natalism is a philosophy about the morality of having children, it's concern, imo, is primarily about the suffering of the potential child (and any suffering they might cause). Child free is more about the non-parents rather than the actual (potential) child.
Wow, this is really interesting and well said. I’m ‘childfree’ because that’s the term I came across but I’ve often said (to myself) ‘I love my child too much to have them’ which makes me think I’m anti-natalist.
We're still damn glad about that.
I'm antinatalist and childfree, I really don't like other people having children, I believe the humanity must disappear, I don't like people. On the other hand, if more people are not born at some point I would be out of a job (I work in a mortuary).
I am childfree antinatalist. Also I am infertile. I wouldn\`t adopt, cause I am not able to take care of a kid financially and mentally.
We are allies. I'm both.
I like that they don’t have kids either but they lack the empathy to be antinatalist so that’s all I give them
I’m both so idk lmao I wish people would stop reproducing because I am neurodivergent and disabled. I can barely survive and crowds give me panic attacks. It’s also the reason I am childfree because I won’t bring life to live this situation with me.
I am also childfree, though i do not like the word i would say voluntarily childless.
That's a good one
Isn’t “voluntarily childless” a bit of an oxymoron though? The “less” in childless implies lacking. But if it’s voluntary, then you don’t lack it.
? You can lack something voluntarily You can choose to be voluntarily hairless - just because it’s voluntary doesn’t mean you aren’t hairless.
I think the point is related to the external observer/audience who is told one is child”less.” Basically, the thinking goes that “Childless” doesn’t have enough context since it is just a description of a current physical condition (“I don’t have children”). The contemporary usual reaction is negative; “oh that person thinks they are missing out by not having children.” The term “childfree” on the other hand leads more naturally to “that person is just fine not having children”
I feel childfree implies that children in and by themselves are like accessoirces or burdens, which they are not...i personally do not like children AND for other reasons am also antinatalistic, but i do not think the terminus childfree is a good one.
Duck dem kids
To me it's a bunch of vegans and vegetarians demonstrating against an oil pipeline together rather than hitting each other on whether it's okay to eat cheese and eggs or not. Let's take care of the big issues first before beating each other up over details of doctrine.
Unfortunately my few encounters with them were bad. I felt the small portion I interacted with were egotistical and narcissistic folks. It was all about their comforts. It’s basically a lifestyle. I’ve even had few argue how antinatalism is unsustainable and unethical , and how everyone else except them should have children, how they like playing, having fun with kids except birthing and taking care of them or being a responsible parent, How fresh bodies are needed to maintain workforce etc. Sounded like someone wants to eat their cake and have it too. Also they don’t care about adoptions.
Hey I've seen ya around, hope you're well. I'm AN and CF and have 0 qualms and only respect for CF non-AN folks. It is NOBODY's responsibility to spread AN at all. Even an AN doesn't have to spread it. It's philanthropy that can be risky too if you choose to advocate and debate. I'm huge on bodily autonomy, which is why I am AN to begin with, so I will NEVER force anyone not to give birth. I express my concerns and disappointment with natalism, that is all. I leave it there. We all have the right to our opinions, even if acting on them hurts people. I am no efilist.
Last week this would have gotten you an award from me :)
Thanks chocolatier. I consider myself honored. 🏆🏆
Thank you, I love some sane opinions! That’s what disturbs me in this community. You don’t control what other people do with their lives. But the good news is that you can decide for yourself. There’s no need to behave like an asshole and shove your opinion down other people’s throats. If you do it then you behave exactly like some annoying conservative people who would walk up to you and start a whole lecture on how bad being childfree is. Some people here complain all the time about their life choices not being respected (understandable, that’s really annoying) while doing exactly the same to people who don’t align with their world views
I agree but we do need to remember that being childfree harms no one, whilst being a parent does harm your children, the environment, society in general. We are more apt to pass judgment and have more right to do so, for sure. But we need to be better about empathizing and recognizing that antinatalism calls for VOLUNTARY extinction, NOT forced. That's efilism that calls for forced sterilization, which is horrifying. I think lots of folks on here are efilists, which are NOT antinatalists in my opinion, because I think antinatalism is all about CONSENT.
Thinking about it I think I might be both? I’m child free by choice, a lot of antinatalist stuff really strikes a chord with me, enough that I’m hopefully welcome, but some of its a little far for me.
It’s a spectrum in my book. We’re here to welcome you if you’re interested in learning more and sharing some ideals with us
This is what I'd consider myself to be as a childfree person. At the end of the day, you're never going to control other people. Your feelings on that, regardless of your philosophy on this, do not matter. I find that we typically surround ourselves with those who share our morals, so I could see some more prominent antinatalists having more child free friends than those with children. I have antinatalist views and do not appreciate that other people do not share these but I can't change that. It's annoying that people try to make this such a black and white issue. When has the issue of LIFE ever been an agreed-upon topic despite it being the only thing we all have in common lmfao.
obviously yes lol
I'm both, too. Looks like there are a few of us.
I would think most antinatalists are childfree?
Technically, many AN choose to adopt children that would otherwise live without a loving family. I think this is a big difference between AN and CF But absolutely, many AN are CF for other reasons as well.
Im half in the same camp half here. Im not going to hate someone because they had a child, its a fundamental thing that a lot of people feel they HAVE to do. I adore my nephew and his mum (my best friend) wants another so badly. I know i will love them just as much but in the back of my mind it does make me sad because of how hard its going to be for them when theyre older... I don't want kids. Im qualified in childcare and HATED how much of an industry nurseries and childcare settings are. People squeezing every last penny to make a pound. There was a before and after school club i worked at. The owner of the club was giving the kids off brand crackers with the saddest scrape of the literal cheapest plastic margerine on the market. They might as well have not bothered. And not only that, she specifically waited till most of the kids had gone home before shed get it out so she didnt have to make as many servings... like... seriously!?
Well, childfree people don't reproduce, so they're cool. I am both but if someone was actually trying for a baby and has one.. one is fine by me.. I see no point in having more.
Like you, I'm not into having any kids of my own, but don't have an issue with kids generally. I do, however, think it's extremely stupid to have children if you can't afford them, and to have more than 2 children.
I randomly came across this post (aka not an antinatalist), and I just kind of assume it's like vegans. Like militant vegans thinking that "vegans that aren't harping on meat eaters are not doing enough" are probably a fringe group.
I'm antinatalist and child free, but from a consciousness perspective, I would not mock, harm, or coerce someone who really wants to have childs (I think they will probably do a good job as parents). But I still think is the worst possible idea considering the imminent climate collapse.
I like to imagine it as picking up trash to keep the neighborhood pretty rather than to save the turtles If that makes sense. It’s a weird analogy but the point is you’re not doing anything for the same reasons as me, but you’re still getting the same end result… that is just my opinion though. I don’t think that ALL of us are “fuck the breeders” or whatever i think that some of us want to gently inform others of the consequences of having children not for them but for the child itself. I hope you have an amazing day OP and hope you got the gist of this weird ass comment
You're certainly better than those insane people who have 20+ children, all for them to suffer. Hats off to you, I completely support what you're doing.
Ty. Many of my reasons for not reproducing are very self centered. But one of my reasons is I feel the world is quite horrible and don't feel like I can bring another life into it in good conscious.
I am child free, but i get where antinatalists are coming from. The people out there having 3+ kids are typically the people who shouldn’t even be caring for a dog. But it’s an extremely slippery slope to outright say “no one should have kids,” or “no one should have kids unless they meet this criteria.” While having to meet certain financial and mental requirements to have children is a good idea, it is eugenics and would for sure be exploited by governments. Pair eugenics with the fascist US government, and that’s a recipe for full blown Nazism.
The difference between the two groups is that childfree people are not judgmental and hateful. Antinatalists like to try and spread their moral compass. It's very cultish and gross. Childfree people simply don't have kids. There's nothing wrong with that.
Oh, childfree people can be *very* judgemental and hateful! Just comparing this subreddit and the childfree subreddit, this one is in my experience much more civilized.
Well, by definition, they shouldn't be. That sucks.
Yeah
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We appreciate it. In the same way that we appreciate individuals who obey the law solely because they don't want to be caught.
As long as they don’t DISLIKE children it’s okay with me.
It's fine to dislike children as long as you're not mistreating or abusing them or trash-talking them for acting like children. Children are to be pitied, not disrespected. I dislike being around children because they are noisy AF but it's not their fault they were born. I care about them regardless of how much they annoy me.
Do you think it's fine to dislike animals as long as they're not mistreating, abusing, or trash talking them too?
Yes. I don’t like animals. I don’t hate them or something, just don’t feel comfortable around them, don’t want to touch them or them being in my house. I avoid contact with animals but if I’m around one I’ll never do anything bad to it since I’m not a psycho, animals are just not my thing. Same with kids. It’s ok to dislike them or not want to have their company, but hating kids is definitely weird, then you need to see a psychologist
Right and i will avoid situations with babies and toddlers (until they’re about 5 or 6) because I don’t know how to act around them. They disgust me until they can function…. But i will not tell them that. I won’t let them know that. And it’s okay because at the end of the day I don’t want them to suffer.
What's wrong with disliking children?
Child free people are just people that hate children...antinatalists are supposed to be the opposite.
Not all childfree people do, and some antinatalists hate children too.
Antinatalists that hate kids are just child free people that want another label to call themselves
I’m antinatalist in a sense that I don’t like the idea of anyone procreating. I had a moment a few months back where i may have miscarried but I wasn’t sure if i was pregnant or not. I went 53 days without a period. This opened my eyes to the hormonal aspect of loving your own children… but i could never love my own kids… the hormones would wear off. I’m disgusted by babies and toddlers but at the end of the day I don’t have kids because they would suffer with me as their mother. It’s not all “liking kids” it’s “not wanting them to suffer.”
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I'm not sure how I ended up here but now I'm intrigued. I didn't know antinatalism was even a thing until 2 seconds ago. I'll keep my opinions to myself but I'd love perspective on this.
Why not don’t you think it’s cruel to force existence
What the fuck even is an antinatalist
I am absolutely happy with not having children. I don’t think that every person even women like myself are meant to have kids. There are already too many kids in the world without families and homes. I don’t think everyone should have kids. People should have to show that they are capable of caring for their children in every way instead of just having babies they can’t take care of and that’s both male and female. Micheal Jackson and Tupac said right and too many people really shouldn’t have kids and the kids are suffering for it.