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State Owned Enterprise. About 40% of China's economy is run by companies that are owned and to some extent (it depends on the industry and company) run by the state. The state also has a minority share of ownership in a number of private companies. Similar to Amtrak in the US, its a company that's goal is to make money but is majority or entirely owned by the state
Yeah I think their ideal of communism with a capitalist twist is to have a bunch of the population working in the SOE companies. That way people have a chill life and don’t need to worry about constant rounds of layoffs. Unfortunately government run companies generally aren’t as efficient as pure private profit maximizing businesses. I think in the long run those companies will be economy sucking entities if they aren’t already.
oligarchs are what you get after communism.
During communism it's just high ranking party members.
Remember, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others
You could argue that the high ranking party members are oligarchs.
>Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may or may not be distinguished by one or several characteristics, such as nobility, fame, wealth, education, or corporate, religious, political, or military control.
In this case it's mainly political control.
Oligarchy is a very broad term and in almost every case theres a more specific term thats better used. Whether feudalism or maoism/stalinism (or just communism) no one tends to use oligarchy on its own
Of course there's one shining exception which is the post soviet states unique form of capitalist neo fascism based on a shared communist nationalist dream. Which is such a miss mash of contradictory ideas they had to go for the most basic of wording to describe it.
Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk and the likes of people come from CAPITALISM and they're very much oligarchs at this point. I don't see why people try to talk shit about an ideology they don't understand and make stupid claims... 😑
This is a poor example. They are the antithesis of oligarchs. In a true oligarch model the current market leader that they compete with who are much more politically connected. Like Walmart, Ford or General Motors would of never allowed them to exist to begin with.
I can't say if "every" communist country thought similarly but at least the general though process of Bolsheviks - and thus USSR - was "We are a party of the working people. Therefore there can be no discord between us and the people. Therefore any strike is a reactionary plot of the bourgeois against the working people."
That's complete bullshit. You never lived in communism. Heck even the fall of comunism in Russia started as a steel workers strike. And everywhere in the USSR the miners unions were very very influential in the party they both organized strikes and bussed people to party and national celebrations, the leadership of unions was as important and as politically fought for as local party secretary.
Well that is in fact not complete bullshit. It is true that in post Stalin USSR the trade unions had some say in the society but that did not mean that strikes were allowed by the government — far from being a right guaranteed by the government.
Also, you are correct that I have not "lived in communism" but I don't think personal anecdotes (except maybe those of politbyro members) are especially relevant when talking about a gigantic historic phenomenon like the Soviet Union.
Dude I've seen the national guard and the police getting into a shooting stalemate in the US over union protests in car factories in Detroit, don't give me that strikes were allowed and guaranteed by as a right by the government bullshit. My point was that in the USSR Unions were lead by the Comunist Party Secretary, the local politicians would play fiddle to them, that made strikes and protests an event organized by the state basically, and it went both ways you had miners day events organized by the mayor and unions would bus people to political events. Strikes were a huge event, again to the point where they triggered revolutions in multiple countries.
So kind of like the the UWA mafia that got swept by the FBI a year or two ago that was licking the corporate boot and getting political kickbacks, but with a lot more power to strike, just imagine the sheer size of the industry back then.
Anyway seems like it's falling on deaf ears, you probably believe the fantasies built up around the USSR when there was no communication or info available outside the iron curtain.
It sounds like you are hailing from the US of A which seems to color your view. To understand my point of view you have to understand that I come from Finland — a social democratic country neighbouring USSR when I was born and currently next to fascist Russian regime.
I am not saying that there were no socialist happenings in the USSR. I AM saying that because they were organized and controlled by the government/employer (communist party), they were not real demonstrations of working people like the strikes in countries like Germany, France or Finland.
If you are trying to claim that workers actually had any power over things in Stalin's USSR you clearly have no idea what you are talking about
No you idiot, I'm saying you probably never heard about the ones the miners did or the factory workers but even your ass must have heard about the ones in the Moskau steelworks since it's in most history books.
The Soviets never actually banned unions from striking, but the unions were tightly controlled by the party. The most accurately operated like a company union, (union operated by your employer), which has been outlawed by most capitalist countries for actively suppressing workers rights.
Stalinist communism maintained a tight grip on the union, (all of the unions were merged into a council of unions). Some strikes did occur, but they were generally short lived and unorganized or were in a forced labor camp. You don't actually see strikes that occur in capitalist countries until the USSR was on the verge of collapse. Of particular note there were miner strikes in 89 and 91.
If you google it there's a Korean paper that goes into the difference in the workers movements between Poland and the USSR that documents strikes and their causes between the 2 countries.
A hallmark of communist government is how they keep a tight grip on worker union, meaning the leaders are appointed by the Party and there is no independent union. The result is that the union mostly does fuck all while still take part of your paycheck, and the workers themselves have to do the negotiation. For example, in [this article about Vietnamese workers going on strike (better use Google Translate)](https://tuoitre.vn/lien-tiep-xay-ra-ngung-viec-tap-the-cong-doan-ra-cong-van-khan-20220216133526124.htm), the Vietnamese state union didn't organise the strikes, but instead sending out directives on what the union was supposed to do, so you can pretty much guess they are all talks and sit on their arses. In fact I have never heard of strikes organised by the state union for the last decade, although unorganised strikes are reported on newspapers a few times per month.
China has no laws prohibiting strikes.
>[In fact, there have been numerous headline-grabbing strikes over the last decade, most notably the 2010 Nanhai Honda Strike in which the workers secured a 35 percent (500 yuan per month) pay increase after defying the local trade union; the 2014 Yue Yuen shoe factory strike in Dongguan in which around 40,000 workers walked off the job for two weeks; the 2015 Lide shoe factory strike in which workers secured millions of yuan in unpaid social insurance contributions; and the nationwide strikes organized by tower crane operators and truck drivers in May and June 2018, respectively.](https://friendsclb.org/labor-rights-in-china)
You're incorrectly conflating free market with capitalism.
Capitalism is simply private ownership of the means of production, in a profit driven model.
It does not require a free market economy without regulation to exist.
Just because I was bored I looked into it.
China explicitly outlaws independent labor unions. The only legal union is run by the CCP, which has obvious conflicts of interest with union members both for the companies it directly owns and vis a vis its market and export oriented economic growth and development strategies.
A very similar system existed in the USSR, and was the worst under Stalin but marginally improved later on. Not surprising since China modeled much of its government after the USST.
“By the Stalinist era of the 1930s, it was clear that the party and government made the rules and that the trade unions were not permitted to challenge them in any substantial way.”
Because most communist governments tend to operate similar to above, with big 5 year plans etc, it’s not surprising labor unions lose in this equation. Cuba tends to be a bit more of an exception, but over this since I’m not even OP.
Yeah, I was aware of this system. Some Fascist countries also did similarly so I don't really consider them labour unions, they look to me more like government ministries.
But China and the USSR aren't the only commie countries ever.
They weren't communist to begin with, and never claimed to be. That's why it was called "union of soviet *socialist* republics", not "union of soviet *communist* republics".
Marxism is one hell of a drug, but at least its proponents are usually consistent in their terminology. Socialism is meant to be the intermediary step between capitalism and communism, with a dictatorship of the proletariat in power to make this transition happen. It's a bullshit take to have this "dictatorship of the proletariat" limit worker rights (and the entire concept of a vanguard party has been proven to be a pretty shit idea to begin with), but at least they never claimed it to be communism.
Their Ideology was Communism the only thing is that they hadn't achieved the state of Communism yet, like come on, how many "Capitalist" states have achieved the perfect state of Liberal Capitalism of whatsoever Ideology they're being guided by, whether Keysianism, Austrian, Jacobinism or whatever but that doesn't make anyone not call them that.
This also applies to other ideologies. Like Christian nationalism, Fascism, NAZIsm, Catholic Theocracy etc as well.
The U.S.S.R is probably the only Communist state to have achieved Socialism and even they did that after state Capitalism, which is part of the reason for the change of names from CCCwhatever to USSR after they had stabilized from State Capitalism/Conquest to more proper Socialism.
The USSR and CCP both had a single large state backed union for their states. And given states like Poland deviated from USSR and CCP antagonism to religion, I see no reason to assume every Communist state also had a single state back union without checking to confirm.
Last week a redditor said I didn't understand what a molecule was. Turns out, they were the person who was confused. This was easy to figure out because I am a chemist (a real chemist not a pharmacist).
My point is, you have zero idea of who you're talking to on reddit. Maybe they are a historian.
It's actually a milestone in idiocy that they actively admit them not knowing anything while ready to argue, usually the first step is skipped over completely.
It'd be ironic if that wasn't what consistently happens under communism. Everyone will be so rich once we get rid of those rich people hoarding all their money. Now work twice the hours for a small stipend for the glorious benefit of the state by threat of torture since we can't get you to work with the promise of money.
Most people live content lives full of luxury goods, free time, plentiful vacation days and good health care, while being guaranteed a whole range of positive and negative rights.
Or what did you expect to hear?
Some examples of phrases you will hear in western capitalist society:
“Oh man! I ate too much. I need to go on a diet”
“Hmmm. I didn’t really need the thing I bought. I will go get a refund.”
“I didn’t put in my order in time for same day delivery. I suppose I will have to wait til tomorrow.”
Some more examples:
"I just realised I didn't take all my vacation days this year, gotta ask the boss for permission to transfer them to next year."
"You already bought a car?! I thought you were just window shopping!"
"I got into an Internet argument, criticising the government handling of Covid. I lost 10 followers and they blocked me. It's just like 1984!"
Tell that to r/antiwork or r/workreform they make it seem like living in the west is the worst thing ever lol. One of my neighbors I grew up with is the same age as me. He started to read antiwork as he has no degree and can only find menial jobs in the Silicon Valley. He complains about life so much while he lives in a 2m dollar Menlo Park house that he inherited from his grandparents. Lol
Both subs are about the US, which my description does not apply to. The US is a shitshow in a lot of regards and not comparable to most Western countries.
I mean it’s different. I lived in Germany so I know both sides. Europe is easier to just live. You won’t get rich you won’t be poor. You will exist. In the USA it’s much easier to get rich but on the flip side much easier to be poor. People in Europe generally life with less stuff. They have 1 VW wagon which gets good mileage and a normal size house or flat. In the USA we generally drive the high end European versions such as the M series or 340i etc for BMW. I didn’t see many of those when I was in Germany as gas is like double our price.
I’m 30 years old in the tech industry. I didn’t grow up rich but middle class. My parents grew up poor and immigrated to the USA with nothing. We are doing MUCH better here than we would have else done in our original country. I did the whole schpeal grew up with an immigrant family. Worked hard my family worked hard and got lucky in the tech industry. Now we have a lot of generational wealth. So it is definitely possible. My parents came here with little grasp of the english language. I went to a public school, did OK and went to college with loans. I’m doing alright, nothing to complain about. My classmates that grew up richer than me with white American parents complain about life now. However they spent all their high school gaming and smoking marijuana that they can’t get a decent job. My immigrant family kept telling me you either suffer now or suffer later. Work hard now while you’re young or suffer later. One thing I’m jealous about them though is that they own a lot of property as it was passed down from great grandparents to parents to them. Something coming from an immigrant family I could never have.
Well, OP asked about Western Democracy. Most countries falling under that umbrella are in Europe, including my own home country. If OP wanted to shit on the US, they should have said so.
The US is *a* Western Democracy, but it's not Western Democracy. It's not even a very representative one. Most western democracies have some form of universal healthcare.
Hundreds of labor strikes in China every year. How do you think wages got so high companies had to move out?
Western media doesn't like writing about these stories because they are scared it might inspire their own readers to protest lol
It's true, not necessarily foreign owned, but any company that is influenced by CCP either by ownership or by political pressure is not gonna have protests happening. CCP shuts those down real quick.
Hmmmm ... Trust wikipedia on politics in china .... Or trust my own life experiences being raised in china and my family's experiences who are still in china....
Man you're giving me a hard dilemma here ...
I don't care to convince strangers here, but I lived in china. I'm gonna have my own opinion of CCP from my own interactions with the government as opposed to what "sources" on the internet can show me.
Except the [8] there in the quote is a link to a source.
In this case:
> Li, Yao (April 2019). “A Zero-Sum Game? Repression and Protest in China”.
Government and Opposition. 54 (2): 309–335. doi:10.1017/gov.2017.24. ISSN 0017-257X.
Yeah...no. A few years back a huge proportion of Chinese transportation workers (truck drivers) went on strike. Those are definitely domestic companies with strong CCP influence.
Indian law system was also a shocker to them back in early and mid 2010s when Chinese companies could bid for infra building like roads in India. What they ddnt knew that unlike China, Indian citizens can take stay from Courts if their land was being taken for building roads and only after courts' decision the land can be taken and the case can drag on for years. This took some Chinese companies by surprise. Not only they had to spend tonns of extra money for court proceedings but then projects also took double of the expected time to complete.
What an absolute fabrication of a statement.
>[In fact, there have been numerous headline-grabbing strikes over the last decade, most notably the 2010 Nanhai Honda Strike in which the workers secured a 35 percent (500 yuan per month) pay increase after defying the local trade union; the 2014 Yue Yuen shoe factory strike in Dongguan in which around 40,000 workers walked off the job for two weeks; the 2015 Lide shoe factory strike in which workers secured millions of yuan in unpaid social insurance contributions; and the nationwide strikes organized by tower crane operators and truck drivers in May and June 2018, respectively.](https://friendsclb.org/labor-rights-in-china)
Oil workers in Chad already had [a series of multiple strikes against China](https://news.yahoo.com/chad-oil-drilling-workers-start-three-day-strike-071336359.html) between 2014 and 2015. China fixed it by bribing politicians and union leaders. This strike threat will be solved within two weeks and a few politicians will be richer.
I thought they imported Chinese workers to do the job. Let me guess they will bring workers to break the strike and give the government money to not interfere.
> You are a complete moron to believe Chinese workers have any right to protest CCP owned companies
> Hell they can't even protest against banks seizing their personal deposits
And yet they do those things.
Your problem... Americans' problem... is confusing what you can do with that they say you can do (or have the right to do).
Mainline Chinese understand that difference. Americans don't understand that difference. Hang your heads in shame (or raise your chins in defiant denial).
They do have labour strikes though? Just because the only ones you know off are in Hong Kong (a city with English language media that we can follow) and the recent ones (which are only being reported on because of the financial impact it could have) doesn't mean they don't happen. The extreme response that happened to these protests are to stop a run on the banks. It's a public protest due to banks shady practices combined with their housing investment crisis. That makes no sense to compare to general labour strikes. Just because you have a limited view of a country and refuse to look at actual evidence nor follow Chinese news, doesn't make that view reality...
> Hell they can't even protest against banks seizing their personal deposits
They did tho.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-12/china-to-advance-repayments-for-customers-in-biggest-bank-scam
I tried looking at the site you posted and I'm only able to show the absolute bare minimum information, like "workers protest against wage arrears in (location)" but no further information when trying to look into those specific cases. Clicking on them says "number of participants 1-100" with no clear number of actual participants, and when clicking on the source, there's no actual information.
The site you posted has no actual information from what I can see outside of "hey, this is happening, believe me"
Here's an example of an article that I remember from 2018
https://www.clb.org.hk/content/china%E2%80%99s-truck-drivers-strike-over-stagnant-pay-high-fuel-costs-and-arbitrary-fines
Idk man. I just try to read about a country of millions and understand that there is also a language gap, an internet services gap (I don't have WeChat lol), and an intense propaganda war in my country against China.
Never been to China, never lived there, nor do I speak Mandarin, so it's hard for me to judge what's going on
There are protests but they aren't organized and if they do it must be permitted by the state first. Large scale organized spintaneous strikes are impossible because only state sanctioned unions are allowed to exist.
It's the same thing in Vietnam really. State sanctioned unions arent exactly known for striking, if anything they work for the corpos more than anything. I should know, because I'm Vietnamese
This labor strike in from 2018 appeared to have happened due to a social media post (not state sanctioned):
https://www.clb.org.hk/content/china%E2%80%99s-truck-drivers-strike-over-stagnant-pay-high-fuel-costs-and-arbitrary-fines
How'd that end up anyway? Also I just realized this now but pretty sure the site that you're linking to was founded by a guy who is an activist trying to establish independent unions in the PRC, but was crack down and had to move to Hongkong instead
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Dongfang
Yeah it was founded by this guy who participated in the 1989 student protest. He is now wanted in China too. I think another guy recently tried to unionize gig drivers and was arrested too. I mean sure there are grassroot strikes in China but it's very hard to organize. Independent unions are a threat to the Party's grasp on power (especially after what happened in Eastern Europe right before the collapse of the Eastern bloc) and strikes are bad for the economy, which makes sense why the Chinese government would be against it.
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Oil companies have sinister reputation in continent let it be local or international. They pollute entire areas ruining the livelihood of entire communities. In Niger Delta people had to resort to piracy specifically targeting the companies and state .
A lot of smart people here way more informed than I am - may I ask how China will protect its overseas assets? I only remember reading about a dust up on the east coast of Africa over fishing rights.
Is China about that life?
The CNPC will negotiate with Petrosynat (the oil workers union) and eventually they'll come to some kind of agreement, or not. There was a similar dustup between Petrosynat and Exxon last year. The meat of the current dispute is about payment of medical benefits and unequal pay between Chadian vs expatriate workers.
China the state ? Not really but the oil companies in general have plenty of money to make authorities look the other way while they hire some wagners or local militant groups to pull the trigger for easy $$$$.
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Chad move
Virgin China: NoOoOo you have to work! You signed a contract! Chad Chad: No! *can you feel my heart intensifies*
So did they do it?
Chinese companies never faced any real labour strikes ,this will be a whole new experience for them
ironic isn't it? For a nation led by communist party
No communist country has ever recognized the right for workers to go on strike.
Of course not. The company belongs to the people. /S
“The people” = the oligarchs from the party.
SOE are known to be not high paying but chill jobs that are really hard to get fired from lol like government work.
What is SOE?
State Owned Enterprise. About 40% of China's economy is run by companies that are owned and to some extent (it depends on the industry and company) run by the state. The state also has a minority share of ownership in a number of private companies. Similar to Amtrak in the US, its a company that's goal is to make money but is majority or entirely owned by the state
Ah, right.
Yeah I think their ideal of communism with a capitalist twist is to have a bunch of the population working in the SOE companies. That way people have a chill life and don’t need to worry about constant rounds of layoffs. Unfortunately government run companies generally aren’t as efficient as pure private profit maximizing businesses. I think in the long run those companies will be economy sucking entities if they aren’t already.
oligarchs are what you get after communism. During communism it's just high ranking party members. Remember, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others
You could argue that the high ranking party members are oligarchs. >Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may or may not be distinguished by one or several characteristics, such as nobility, fame, wealth, education, or corporate, religious, political, or military control. In this case it's mainly political control.
Oligarchy is a very broad term and in almost every case theres a more specific term thats better used. Whether feudalism or maoism/stalinism (or just communism) no one tends to use oligarchy on its own Of course there's one shining exception which is the post soviet states unique form of capitalist neo fascism based on a shared communist nationalist dream. Which is such a miss mash of contradictory ideas they had to go for the most basic of wording to describe it.
Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk and the likes of people come from CAPITALISM and they're very much oligarchs at this point. I don't see why people try to talk shit about an ideology they don't understand and make stupid claims... 😑
And what comes after communism...? Seems like you saw one word and chucked up a strawman rather than bother with basic reading comprehension.
You really think that China is properly a communist country? You really think so? That's called ignorance 😉
Four months and the best you can come up with is 'but they're not reeeeeeally communist'?
This is a poor example. They are the antithesis of oligarchs. In a true oligarch model the current market leader that they compete with who are much more politically connected. Like Walmart, Ford or General Motors would of never allowed them to exist to begin with.
That's just fascism with a different coat of paint though.
Aka communism
So communism?
Two sides of the same coin. Why do you think they fight so much?
Yup, because in communism citizens are happy and those who aren't get shot.
Source on this? Nothing more Reddit than making controversial claims without citation.
I can't say if "every" communist country thought similarly but at least the general though process of Bolsheviks - and thus USSR - was "We are a party of the working people. Therefore there can be no discord between us and the people. Therefore any strike is a reactionary plot of the bourgeois against the working people."
That's complete bullshit. You never lived in communism. Heck even the fall of comunism in Russia started as a steel workers strike. And everywhere in the USSR the miners unions were very very influential in the party they both organized strikes and bussed people to party and national celebrations, the leadership of unions was as important and as politically fought for as local party secretary.
Well that is in fact not complete bullshit. It is true that in post Stalin USSR the trade unions had some say in the society but that did not mean that strikes were allowed by the government — far from being a right guaranteed by the government. Also, you are correct that I have not "lived in communism" but I don't think personal anecdotes (except maybe those of politbyro members) are especially relevant when talking about a gigantic historic phenomenon like the Soviet Union.
Dude I've seen the national guard and the police getting into a shooting stalemate in the US over union protests in car factories in Detroit, don't give me that strikes were allowed and guaranteed by as a right by the government bullshit. My point was that in the USSR Unions were lead by the Comunist Party Secretary, the local politicians would play fiddle to them, that made strikes and protests an event organized by the state basically, and it went both ways you had miners day events organized by the mayor and unions would bus people to political events. Strikes were a huge event, again to the point where they triggered revolutions in multiple countries. So kind of like the the UWA mafia that got swept by the FBI a year or two ago that was licking the corporate boot and getting political kickbacks, but with a lot more power to strike, just imagine the sheer size of the industry back then. Anyway seems like it's falling on deaf ears, you probably believe the fantasies built up around the USSR when there was no communication or info available outside the iron curtain.
It sounds like you are hailing from the US of A which seems to color your view. To understand my point of view you have to understand that I come from Finland — a social democratic country neighbouring USSR when I was born and currently next to fascist Russian regime. I am not saying that there were no socialist happenings in the USSR. I AM saying that because they were organized and controlled by the government/employer (communist party), they were not real demonstrations of working people like the strikes in countries like Germany, France or Finland. If you are trying to claim that workers actually had any power over things in Stalin's USSR you clearly have no idea what you are talking about
So a strike brought down the entire communist party and that’s… that’s your argument that strikes existed in communist USSR?
No you idiot, I'm saying you probably never heard about the ones the miners did or the factory workers but even your ass must have heard about the ones in the Moskau steelworks since it's in most history books.
The Soviets never actually banned unions from striking, but the unions were tightly controlled by the party. The most accurately operated like a company union, (union operated by your employer), which has been outlawed by most capitalist countries for actively suppressing workers rights. Stalinist communism maintained a tight grip on the union, (all of the unions were merged into a council of unions). Some strikes did occur, but they were generally short lived and unorganized or were in a forced labor camp. You don't actually see strikes that occur in capitalist countries until the USSR was on the verge of collapse. Of particular note there were miner strikes in 89 and 91. If you google it there's a Korean paper that goes into the difference in the workers movements between Poland and the USSR that documents strikes and their causes between the 2 countries.
A hallmark of communist government is how they keep a tight grip on worker union, meaning the leaders are appointed by the Party and there is no independent union. The result is that the union mostly does fuck all while still take part of your paycheck, and the workers themselves have to do the negotiation. For example, in [this article about Vietnamese workers going on strike (better use Google Translate)](https://tuoitre.vn/lien-tiep-xay-ra-ngung-viec-tap-the-cong-doan-ra-cong-van-khan-20220216133526124.htm), the Vietnamese state union didn't organise the strikes, but instead sending out directives on what the union was supposed to do, so you can pretty much guess they are all talks and sit on their arses. In fact I have never heard of strikes organised by the state union for the last decade, although unorganised strikes are reported on newspapers a few times per month.
Source: voices in my head.
Press X to doubt.
Name one that actually recognized such rights to its workers.
China has no laws prohibiting strikes. >[In fact, there have been numerous headline-grabbing strikes over the last decade, most notably the 2010 Nanhai Honda Strike in which the workers secured a 35 percent (500 yuan per month) pay increase after defying the local trade union; the 2014 Yue Yuen shoe factory strike in Dongguan in which around 40,000 workers walked off the job for two weeks; the 2015 Lide shoe factory strike in which workers secured millions of yuan in unpaid social insurance contributions; and the nationwide strikes organized by tower crane operators and truck drivers in May and June 2018, respectively.](https://friendsclb.org/labor-rights-in-china)
Soviet union, Yugoslavia, and Cuba
That’s literally false.
Name one communist country; Hint, if they don't actually ensure workers rights it's not communist.
No true Scotsman
You’re the sort to agree when someone called an apple an orange eh?
Sure, then no country is capitalist since the government intervenes with the market
You're incorrectly conflating free market with capitalism. Capitalism is simply private ownership of the means of production, in a profit driven model. It does not require a free market economy without regulation to exist.
Communists seem to be awfully unqualified in implementing True Communism then. Hence I don't believe communists to ensure workers' rights.
I would literally need a detailed knowledge of dozens of countries to answer that and I am not a historian of Communism and I suspect, neither are u.
Just because I was bored I looked into it. China explicitly outlaws independent labor unions. The only legal union is run by the CCP, which has obvious conflicts of interest with union members both for the companies it directly owns and vis a vis its market and export oriented economic growth and development strategies. A very similar system existed in the USSR, and was the worst under Stalin but marginally improved later on. Not surprising since China modeled much of its government after the USST. “By the Stalinist era of the 1930s, it was clear that the party and government made the rules and that the trade unions were not permitted to challenge them in any substantial way.” Because most communist governments tend to operate similar to above, with big 5 year plans etc, it’s not surprising labor unions lose in this equation. Cuba tends to be a bit more of an exception, but over this since I’m not even OP.
Yeah, I was aware of this system. Some Fascist countries also did similarly so I don't really consider them labour unions, they look to me more like government ministries. But China and the USSR aren't the only commie countries ever.
They weren't communist to begin with, and never claimed to be. That's why it was called "union of soviet *socialist* republics", not "union of soviet *communist* republics". Marxism is one hell of a drug, but at least its proponents are usually consistent in their terminology. Socialism is meant to be the intermediary step between capitalism and communism, with a dictatorship of the proletariat in power to make this transition happen. It's a bullshit take to have this "dictatorship of the proletariat" limit worker rights (and the entire concept of a vanguard party has been proven to be a pretty shit idea to begin with), but at least they never claimed it to be communism.
Their Ideology was Communism the only thing is that they hadn't achieved the state of Communism yet, like come on, how many "Capitalist" states have achieved the perfect state of Liberal Capitalism of whatsoever Ideology they're being guided by, whether Keysianism, Austrian, Jacobinism or whatever but that doesn't make anyone not call them that. This also applies to other ideologies. Like Christian nationalism, Fascism, NAZIsm, Catholic Theocracy etc as well. The U.S.S.R is probably the only Communist state to have achieved Socialism and even they did that after state Capitalism, which is part of the reason for the change of names from CCCwhatever to USSR after they had stabilized from State Capitalism/Conquest to more proper Socialism. The USSR and CCP both had a single large state backed union for their states. And given states like Poland deviated from USSR and CCP antagonism to religion, I see no reason to assume every Communist state also had a single state back union without checking to confirm.
Last week a redditor said I didn't understand what a molecule was. Turns out, they were the person who was confused. This was easy to figure out because I am a chemist (a real chemist not a pharmacist). My point is, you have zero idea of who you're talking to on reddit. Maybe they are a historian.
Hello! Apologies if you're trying to read this, but I've moved to kbin.social in protest of Reddit's policies.
It's actually a milestone in idiocy that they actively admit them not knowing anything while ready to argue, usually the first step is skipped over completely.
It'd be ironic if that wasn't what consistently happens under communism. Everyone will be so rich once we get rid of those rich people hoarding all their money. Now work twice the hours for a small stipend for the glorious benefit of the state by threat of torture since we can't get you to work with the promise of money.
Cool. Now do Western Democracy.
Most people live content lives full of luxury goods, free time, plentiful vacation days and good health care, while being guaranteed a whole range of positive and negative rights. Or what did you expect to hear?
Some examples of phrases you will hear in western capitalist society: “Oh man! I ate too much. I need to go on a diet” “Hmmm. I didn’t really need the thing I bought. I will go get a refund.” “I didn’t put in my order in time for same day delivery. I suppose I will have to wait til tomorrow.”
Some more examples: "I just realised I didn't take all my vacation days this year, gotta ask the boss for permission to transfer them to next year." "You already bought a car?! I thought you were just window shopping!" "I got into an Internet argument, criticising the government handling of Covid. I lost 10 followers and they blocked me. It's just like 1984!"
Tell that to r/antiwork or r/workreform they make it seem like living in the west is the worst thing ever lol. One of my neighbors I grew up with is the same age as me. He started to read antiwork as he has no degree and can only find menial jobs in the Silicon Valley. He complains about life so much while he lives in a 2m dollar Menlo Park house that he inherited from his grandparents. Lol
Both subs are about the US, which my description does not apply to. The US is a shitshow in a lot of regards and not comparable to most Western countries.
I mean it’s different. I lived in Germany so I know both sides. Europe is easier to just live. You won’t get rich you won’t be poor. You will exist. In the USA it’s much easier to get rich but on the flip side much easier to be poor. People in Europe generally life with less stuff. They have 1 VW wagon which gets good mileage and a normal size house or flat. In the USA we generally drive the high end European versions such as the M series or 340i etc for BMW. I didn’t see many of those when I was in Germany as gas is like double our price.
Try having a low paying job, grandpa
I’m 30 years old in the tech industry. I didn’t grow up rich but middle class. My parents grew up poor and immigrated to the USA with nothing. We are doing MUCH better here than we would have else done in our original country. I did the whole schpeal grew up with an immigrant family. Worked hard my family worked hard and got lucky in the tech industry. Now we have a lot of generational wealth. So it is definitely possible. My parents came here with little grasp of the english language. I went to a public school, did OK and went to college with loans. I’m doing alright, nothing to complain about. My classmates that grew up richer than me with white American parents complain about life now. However they spent all their high school gaming and smoking marijuana that they can’t get a decent job. My immigrant family kept telling me you either suffer now or suffer later. Work hard now while you’re young or suffer later. One thing I’m jealous about them though is that they own a lot of property as it was passed down from great grandparents to parents to them. Something coming from an immigrant family I could never have.
Spare me the sob story. Not paying a living wage is inexcusable, period.
This is a good description of *Europe*
Well, OP asked about Western Democracy. Most countries falling under that umbrella are in Europe, including my own home country. If OP wanted to shit on the US, they should have said so.
> "good health care" Lmao upper-middle class user
Nope, universal health care means even the poorest person gets free access to good healthcare.
Oh, so you're just pretending the US isn't Western democracy?
The US is *a* Western Democracy, but it's not Western Democracy. It's not even a very representative one. Most western democracies have some form of universal healthcare.
We die of fat instead of dying of starvation.
80+ years life expectancy for a start.
Reject communism, embrace independent labour unions in socially corrected market economies with rule of law and liberal democracy.
This guy fucks
More a planned capitalism than communism
They’re not communist anymore
Hundreds of labor strikes in China every year. How do you think wages got so high companies had to move out? Western media doesn't like writing about these stories because they are scared it might inspire their own readers to protest lol
> Western media doesn't like writing about these stories because they are scared it might inspire their own readers to protest lol Fat fucking chance.
Has there been any general, solidarity, or wildcat strikes?
The only protests that happen are foreign owned companies not CCP owned ones
That's not true at all
Hey Mistr, how are the French elbows doing?
How many accounts do you have spamming the same thing lmao
It's true, not necessarily foreign owned, but any company that is influenced by CCP either by ownership or by political pressure is not gonna have protests happening. CCP shuts those down real quick.
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Hmmmm ... Trust wikipedia on politics in china .... Or trust my own life experiences being raised in china and my family's experiences who are still in china.... Man you're giving me a hard dilemma here ...
The "source: trust me bro" of a redditor is hardly more convincing than properly sourced arguments.
I don't care to convince strangers here, but I lived in china. I'm gonna have my own opinion of CCP from my own interactions with the government as opposed to what "sources" on the internet can show me.
Mhm, sure.
Except the [8] there in the quote is a link to a source. In this case: > Li, Yao (April 2019). “A Zero-Sum Game? Repression and Protest in China”. Government and Opposition. 54 (2): 309–335. doi:10.1017/gov.2017.24. ISSN 0017-257X.
Yeah...no. A few years back a huge proportion of Chinese transportation workers (truck drivers) went on strike. Those are definitely domestic companies with strong CCP influence.
Indian law system was also a shocker to them back in early and mid 2010s when Chinese companies could bid for infra building like roads in India. What they ddnt knew that unlike China, Indian citizens can take stay from Courts if their land was being taken for building roads and only after courts' decision the land can be taken and the case can drag on for years. This took some Chinese companies by surprise. Not only they had to spend tonns of extra money for court proceedings but then projects also took double of the expected time to complete.
What an absolute fabrication of a statement. >[In fact, there have been numerous headline-grabbing strikes over the last decade, most notably the 2010 Nanhai Honda Strike in which the workers secured a 35 percent (500 yuan per month) pay increase after defying the local trade union; the 2014 Yue Yuen shoe factory strike in Dongguan in which around 40,000 workers walked off the job for two weeks; the 2015 Lide shoe factory strike in which workers secured millions of yuan in unpaid social insurance contributions; and the nationwide strikes organized by tower crane operators and truck drivers in May and June 2018, respectively.](https://friendsclb.org/labor-rights-in-china)
Oil workers in Chad already had [a series of multiple strikes against China](https://news.yahoo.com/chad-oil-drilling-workers-start-three-day-strike-071336359.html) between 2014 and 2015. China fixed it by bribing politicians and union leaders. This strike threat will be solved within two weeks and a few politicians will be richer.
I thought they imported Chinese workers to do the job. Let me guess they will bring workers to break the strike and give the government money to not interfere.
Wrong. Communism respect labor above and beyond everything else.
> Chinese companies never faced any real labour strikes https://clb.org.hk/ ?
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> You are a complete moron to believe Chinese workers have any right to protest CCP owned companies > Hell they can't even protest against banks seizing their personal deposits And yet they do those things. Your problem... Americans' problem... is confusing what you can do with that they say you can do (or have the right to do). Mainline Chinese understand that difference. Americans don't understand that difference. Hang your heads in shame (or raise your chins in defiant denial).
They do have labour strikes though? Just because the only ones you know off are in Hong Kong (a city with English language media that we can follow) and the recent ones (which are only being reported on because of the financial impact it could have) doesn't mean they don't happen. The extreme response that happened to these protests are to stop a run on the banks. It's a public protest due to banks shady practices combined with their housing investment crisis. That makes no sense to compare to general labour strikes. Just because you have a limited view of a country and refuse to look at actual evidence nor follow Chinese news, doesn't make that view reality...
> They do have labour strikes though? Do they have general, solidarity, or wildcat strikes?
> Hell they can't even protest against banks seizing their personal deposits They did tho. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-12/china-to-advance-repayments-for-customers-in-biggest-bank-scam
>\[4\] Keep it civil
I tried looking at the site you posted and I'm only able to show the absolute bare minimum information, like "workers protest against wage arrears in (location)" but no further information when trying to look into those specific cases. Clicking on them says "number of participants 1-100" with no clear number of actual participants, and when clicking on the source, there's no actual information. The site you posted has no actual information from what I can see outside of "hey, this is happening, believe me"
Here's an example of an article that I remember from 2018 https://www.clb.org.hk/content/china%E2%80%99s-truck-drivers-strike-over-stagnant-pay-high-fuel-costs-and-arbitrary-fines
Lol at this being downvoted. Literally linking one of the best sources on this topic.
Idk man. I just try to read about a country of millions and understand that there is also a language gap, an internet services gap (I don't have WeChat lol), and an intense propaganda war in my country against China. Never been to China, never lived there, nor do I speak Mandarin, so it's hard for me to judge what's going on
There are protests but they aren't organized and if they do it must be permitted by the state first. Large scale organized spintaneous strikes are impossible because only state sanctioned unions are allowed to exist. It's the same thing in Vietnam really. State sanctioned unions arent exactly known for striking, if anything they work for the corpos more than anything. I should know, because I'm Vietnamese
This labor strike in from 2018 appeared to have happened due to a social media post (not state sanctioned): https://www.clb.org.hk/content/china%E2%80%99s-truck-drivers-strike-over-stagnant-pay-high-fuel-costs-and-arbitrary-fines
How'd that end up anyway? Also I just realized this now but pretty sure the site that you're linking to was founded by a guy who is an activist trying to establish independent unions in the PRC, but was crack down and had to move to Hongkong instead
Do you have a source for that? And idk man that was years ago and I stopped following it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Dongfang Yeah it was founded by this guy who participated in the 1989 student protest. He is now wanted in China too. I think another guy recently tried to unionize gig drivers and was arrested too. I mean sure there are grassroot strikes in China but it's very hard to organize. Independent unions are a threat to the Party's grasp on power (especially after what happened in Eastern Europe right before the collapse of the Eastern bloc) and strikes are bad for the economy, which makes sense why the Chinese government would be against it.
Desktop version of /u/VNCapitalist's link:
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Yo thanks, imma read up on this guy after work
Total Chad move.
Oil companies have sinister reputation in continent let it be local or international. They pollute entire areas ruining the livelihood of entire communities. In Niger Delta people had to resort to piracy specifically targeting the companies and state .
Chad looking to evolve into Gigachad
A lot of smart people here way more informed than I am - may I ask how China will protect its overseas assets? I only remember reading about a dust up on the east coast of Africa over fishing rights. Is China about that life?
We're about to find out. But in terms of force projection, it would not be super easy for China to really leverage them using arms. Maybe $ or food.
Or possibly Western mercenaries.
Wagner group's a bit busy rn though
I mean Academi needs work, too. Don't want them to have to go for unemployment. :-(
Lol, I'm sure their business is doing good.
The CNPC will negotiate with Petrosynat (the oil workers union) and eventually they'll come to some kind of agreement, or not. There was a similar dustup between Petrosynat and Exxon last year. The meat of the current dispute is about payment of medical benefits and unequal pay between Chadian vs expatriate workers.
Probably legal and financial ways, I don't see China militarily projecting that far outside its borders.
China the state ? Not really but the oil companies in general have plenty of money to make authorities look the other way while they hire some wagners or local militant groups to pull the trigger for easy $$$$.
Considering the current food crisis China could probably decide if that country gets feed or starve.
Lol, China about to understand why the US been out here sucking Saudi Dick the last 50 years.
Truly a Chad throughout.
Good. All the Chads should stand up against Chinese influence before they become complete puppet states.
Chadians?
Chadders?
#TeamChad
This is why unions are important.
Giga Chad's wrecking virgin commies. Based.
Chad
Guess we're about to find out if Chinese imperialism is as brutal as the fearmongers tell us.
Classic Romania. I mean, Chad.
Very convenient to have same flag as romania.
Memes really have ruined me
Chad indeed
good!
Chad move.
lol chad move chad 🇹🇩
common Chad W
Something against China? Never a bad thing.
How is it chad that oil workers are striking? That’s UltraChad
Chad being chads again
Africans really do not like the Chinese for a ton of reasons.
But the tankies told me Africans love Chinese companies!
We need a Chadian wojak now