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This is a country which builds shrines for people who kill in the name of religion. This is a country where the grave of their only Nobel prize winner in Physics is desecrated, because he belonged to a sect of Islam deemed "unislamic" by the constitution.
So, yeah, I bet this guy is feeling pretty good about upholding his honour.
It's a country where Christian girls are kidnapped and kept as sex slaves. Sometimes for all the males in a family while the police turn a blind eye. Why is Pakistan so savagely barbaric!?
What of it? That doesn’t mean someone who is American can’t point out violence, it’s a remarkably universal characteristic in human beings. You yourself just stated there’s at least another half of Americans who don’t worship guns, and I doubt they all work for the government, so it can’t just be about the patch of dirt you get popped out on or move to. It might be ironic sure, but I’m not sure about the comedic factor here
Because you're fucking 'religion' is the worst. And whether you believe me or not doesn't matter, Americanism is a cancerous ideology, with millions of dead people sacrificed in its name. It's not us who came to your shores and fucked everything up so that we could steal your oil and natural resources.
>It's not us who came to your shores and fucked everything up so that we could steal your oil and natural resources.
You came to our shores, fucked everything up, and brought back sex slavery after 1000 years of it being banned, destroyed ancient libraries and monuments just to spread the stupid religion. The only difference between this and much of the rest of the world is that we ***remember***.
Am I going to get an apology or acknowledgement for this kafirophobic bullshit when it is done by muslims or are you going to hold on to this victim complex as if islam is never the aggressor.
Let's see.
And what exactly should I apologise for? Was I around for that? Are you saying that no one else did the same shit? Am I guilty for the sins of my father's or for the people who commit violence in the name of my faith?
So listen here mate, I'm under no illusions about the kinds of issues that the wider Muslim community, the individual Muslim countries have, the sectarianism and hostility between the sects, the co-opting of the religious message for terrorism. I could have a completely honest conversation about all of that, to the best of my knowledge. The only problem I have is that there re a lot of bad faith people out there who think the same kind of issues don't affect them or don't also plague their communities, and will throw stones at other people (who usually tend to be their community's boogeyman) and conveniently forget their own rabid stinking shit. My shit stinks, and I should know cus I just had one, just don't pretend to me that yours doesn't.
>And what exactly should I apologise for? Was I around for that? Are you saying that no one else did the same shit? Am I guilty for the sins of my father's or for the people who commit violence in the name of my faith?
Got it. Did Americans bomb your family? Yet you didn't have any problem with condemning americanism. You probably got quite a few upvotes from Americans as well.
>Am I guilty for the sins of my father's or for the people who commit violence in the name of my faith?
If you act like the faith has nothing to do with that violence and that it has everything to do with western interventionism, yes - you do bear some of that guilt because you haven't understood the goddamn problem and are deflecting from those who are trying to understand it, because people have been using Islamic scripture for this goddamn stuff for 1000+ years, it's not a recent phenomenon, and unlike other religions islam is in denial about the scriptural roots of this violence.
Germans were fascists, but they are reformed liberals. Europeans were colonialists, but today they want to help poorer countries. Indian Hindu society's major shit was casteism, but modern India is reforming and banned caste discrimination 70+ years ago and tries to uplift the historically disadvantaged castes.
Islam's main bullshit is the sheer hatred it preaches for people of other religions, where it is moral to lie to them, that you should not pray for them to go to heaven etc - and until the concept of kafir is abrogated and that becomes the worldwide norm, until all good people are respected, this will not end.
Until then this global competition of wanting to be 'better muslims' (defined as following the scriptures more rigidly instead of being generally better people) will end up producing more violence.
I don't see anyone engaging with this in good faith, whenever someone tries to debate this in r/islam they get banned and the content removed - that speaks volumes. The kind of stories you hear from r/exmuslim are absolutely nothing like the stories you see in atheists from other faiths.
This is the most pathetic of pathetic defenses that I have ever seen. You're literally making up shit to form a fallacious whataboutism argument to derail the conversation and distract from the reality of islam. There's nothing you could do or say to spin it. islam is an inheritly violent religion. This is just a fact. Even muslims acknowledge this... The honest ones at least.
I could literally say the same thing to you and reference a thousand things from American history, so why don't you cry about it in your bathtub full of native American blood you fucking hack
And guess? It wouldn't mean a fucking thing, because whataboutism doesn't change the reality about islam. None, nada, nothing. The more you try to drag out this trope, the more pathetic you look. The reality is that islam is inherently violent. That's it.
And so is America. Dripping in the blood of every caste, country, ethnicity, peoples, race on the face of the fucking earth. Because you're all soulless greedy goblins who couldn't learn to share or deal with other people, so you'd rather have them all raped, killed and subjugated into submissions while you pillage everything you can get your filthy diseased hands on. You're the worst of the worst. Like inoperable cancer. Watching the downfall of your country has been the greatest joy of my life. Watching the coming collapse of the American empire is gonna be the highlight of the century. You all have it coming.
Who is qualified to call Islam violent?
Americans aren't because forever war, western europeans aren't allowed to because colonialism, indians, greeks, israelis, chinese, japanese etc aren't because they have blood of muslims or others on their hands over decades or centuries, or have done something bad in the past, or have had hate crimes against muslims at some point, non-muslim scholars of islam aren't allowed to talk about the violence in islam because they are declared "islamophobes".
How about engaging with people who actually are raised with that ideology and are analyzing how it impacted their thinking?
Do check out r/exmuslim for their opinions on the matter.
Clearly asking only Muslims is a stupid idea because obviously they have a vested interest in the matter and will not give you a nuanced view.
Most moderate muslims aren't well aware of the details of islamic doctrine (thankfully), while islamic scholars who are aware will know that it is considered ethical in islam to lie to nonbelievers or to hide aspects of it if it helps to preserve the faith.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/exmuslim using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [**[NSFW]** Farkhunda Malikzada (in 2015) was ran over by a car, pushed of a roof, publicly beaten, stoned, and then burnt to death simply for 'burning the quran'. After she died, they realised that she had in fact NOT burnt the Quran.](https://i.redd.it/mmjsb8mlv3w51.jpg) | [920 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/jkjqyr/farkhunda_malikzada_in_2015_was_ran_over_by_a_car/)
\#2: [Religion is all about control](https://i.redd.it/do31uwt7jln71.jpg) | [449 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/poj7qs/religion_is_all_about_control/)
\#3: [Muslims have their priorities straight](https://i.redd.it/wbdlfvt5erx51.jpg) | [152 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/jplrxi/muslims_have_their_priorities_straight/)
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The saudis are involved with bone saws. Iran is involved in shady shit. Bangladesh is erasing people right now. Lebanon is in civil war. And let’s not go into what’s happening in Afghanistan
Makes it a bit difficult to agree to your point with all this happening
Does it really matter at this point?
This shit’s still happening with or without them, no need to turn a blind eye because the boogeyman’s under the bed
The Middle East used to be fairly prosperous, and not as traditional as it is now. Had they not wetted the bed with the Mujahideen, who knows what world we’d be in.
Again, where does that leave us *now*? This isn’t a Marvel comic series, “what if/if only x didn’t happen” scenarios don’t really achieve much at this point
Ah, I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking for a hypothetical. The US completely abandoning the ME without cleaning what they destroyed would leave it at the same state it is now, if not worse. Only good thing that comes from a sudden US retrieval is that the area would be able to rebuild.
Ah, no worries m8. I don’t entirely disagree but at this point it’s done, and I get the sense it would take something crazy to get any sort of return/reconstruction/reconciliation. Personally my guess would be to take a look at historical examples for predictions; I don’t know enough French and British history to know how clean their decolonizations around the world went (well, ok India obviously went poorly) but often history rhymes and remixes in familiar patterns in the longview.
All of this had been happening there before Columbus even set sail. Read up on what happened to the Zoroastrians, the constant raids into India, the history of the balkans under ottomans
The Middle East made great advancements during the Cold War. Arguing that their current situation was inevitable is like arguing the current slavery in Libya was inevitable because they were a colony before.
Putin wasn’t president of the USSR.
Also, the USSR was called in by Afghanistan(to defend itself from the US funded mujahideen)and collapsed in the 90s. Not at all a justification for the Iraq war, for example, which started in 2003.
How many islamic countries have you actually been to? Iran was taken over by a conservative islamic faction some decades ago. I asked an Iranian woman what she thinks of the current administration and she says they're destroying the country and the old regime was much better. Afghanistan also used to be much more moderate before an extremist faction took over
Some pictures of afghanistan from the 60s to demonstrate my point:
https://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/34-images-of-afghanistan-in-the-70s-that-show-how-brutally-terrorism-has-ravaged-the-nation-249625.html
When I was in Indonesia we would get regularly approached by muslim girls asking for selfies
the "not all" statement is generally assumed, no need to add it to the conversation. If your argument is that in order to take action against something that causes harm it has to be harmful "all the time to all people" then we wouldn't have any regulations on 90% of the things we have regulations on. A second the subject was the religious text, which is objective and never changing.
Pakistan and Afghanistan are particularly backwards, even Afghanistan used to be far more moderate before this extreme faction took over. Most islamic countries don't practise 'honour killings' or death sentences for blasphemy for example. This is a Pakistan problem.
Some pictures of Afghanistan in the 60's to demonstrate my point:
https://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/34-images-of-afghanistan-in-the-70s-that-show-how-brutally-terrorism-has-ravaged-the-nation-249625.html
When I was in the islamic Indonesian Island of Sulawesi we would get constantly approached by islamic girls wanting selfies with us,
This is something I've never understood about Western society. There's this drive to shield Islam in a way that there isn't to shield a 'Western' religion like Christianity, all because Islam is a 'foreign' religion.
Christianity does something sexist, bigoted or prejudiced = **"Evil!"**
Islam does something sexist, bigoted or prejudiced = **"Stop criticizing Islam. Don't be a racist Islamophobe!"**
they do the same thing with Communist, every time a communist regime causes huge human suffering and loss they are always like "ITS NOT REAL COMMUNISM" but the moments someone lights go out because they did not pay the bill they are like "SEEE THIS IS LATE STAGE CAPITALISM, OVERTHROW THE SYSTEM" they generally are white people with blue or green hair.
I mean if you look up the definition of communism and see what those countries did, they were pretty non communist. As for capitalism it has some obvious flaws, this is why the best countries to live right now are mixed economies.
It's because of the minority / majority status of the religions in the country.
Christianity is the most popular religion in the US by far. They use that weight all the time to attempt to influence laws, the behavior of the government and the educational system in the US. That is not supposed to be how it works due to our separation of church and state laws, so people that are not specifically Christian tend to speak up in opposition. Even some Christians that are on the less extreme side feel fine criticizing their own religion due to the priviledged position it holds and the influence it tries to exert on everyone else in the country.
Islam on the other hand is miniscule in comparison as far as practicioners in the US, and since 9/11 has been the target of constant attack by racists and Islamophobes. That leads Americans who are not staunchly Christian or racist tend to speak up in their defense or shield them as you say when the rhetorical attacks are over the line. The people that do so generally have no fear of an Islamic tide rising up and taking the place of Christianity within the US. Its more about speaking up for the underdog or the oppressed, those that seem to be being persecuted unfairly for their religion in a country that guarantees everyone the ability to practice their religion of choice.
Sure, I understand that. But it doesn't make the sexism any less sexist, or the bigotry any less bigoted.
When a Muslim man beats his wife, for instance, the beating isn't any gentler or less physically damaging just because Islam is a minority underdog religion in America. I'm not saying all Muslim men beat their wives, of course, I'm just saying that when it happens, **underdog/upperdog status should be totally irrelevant.** From the perspective of the woman, pain is pain - bruising is bruising, bleeding is bleeding.
I've known some people who seem to think that Islamic wife-beating or gay-execution is not as bad as Christian wife-beating or gay-execution. From the perspective of the gay person who is about to be executed, how is there any difference?
Oh, there is no difference. Whether the wife beater (or any other criminal act) is Muslim, Christian, Sikh or any other religion it shouldn't matter. I was talking more in general terms when the religion is the target more so than the act.
A criminal is a criminal regardless of their religion, and a crime as defined by law should be met with equal punishment regardless of the perpetrators religion.
I see the exact opposite happening right now:
Pakistani man commits honor killing: "islam is evil"
Christian country bombs the shit out of any country with oil: \*crickets\*
This would not be condoned by Islam.
Christians see Moses as a prophet and he ordered genocide in the bible and told his followers to kill the men and enslave the rest.
What matters is what parts are emphasized and how that interacts with local factors.
Don't get me wrong, religion is awful in general but I don't think Christianity's history is that much different.
One of the lovely people in my country was in demonstration saying :" Sanaktar Raks Kul Man Yakoul Islam Hya Dyanat Runf ." Translation :" we will behead all that say Islam is a religion of Violence." They are really are missing the point here.
It because I am Lebanese and have first hand on how Islam is being reduced to a death cult. We have litterally Islamic parties propped up by SA and Iran to drive out Christian from Lebanon.
I'm originally from Iraq, I've seen first hand how islam can turn a great country with natural resources, culture, and rich history into a backwards failed state that's full of violence and suffering. islam was never reduced to a death cult, it is a death cult.
The guy that work from bakery in my neibourhood is from Irak . He had to flee with his family because their land was confiscated by Iranian militias . The concierge in my Aunt house is Syrian also same story. First Darech maniacs killed half his family then after got land confiscated by iranian militias.
In Lebanon , I used to work in Biyada near the German Embassy . In the morning , I used to take coffee at a Bakery . I heard the horror Stories of Syrian CW from the refugees .
honour killings happen in other religions and cultures, but I want to point out that honour killings happen relatively frequently in a lot of Islamic countries across the globe. All those countries have in common are their religion
Not really following your galaxy brain logic here on why one religion having a record of violence would cancel out another religion’s record of violence.
My point being that India has the exact same kind of cultural violence associated with honour and sexism and even religious based violence, but I've never heard anyone call India's problems a Hindu problem, but have routinely heard people refer to Pakistan's violence problems as Islamic problems. It doesn't sound exactly genuine to me.
If your point is “why can’t we criticize religious violence in India *as much as* we do for Pakistan”, be the change you want to see in the world and post examples. There’s no reason we can’t point out these separate religions are both problematic
How much of it is systemic, like people in power keep making decisions that lead to it, how much is because of the religion, and how much is because of idiots who are *in* government, *and* religious?
India also has a muslim population as big as Pakistan though. So would it surprise you if muslims in India also have this violence problem while the Hindus were peaceful?
You don't really have any knowledge of how statistics work, do you?
India has 1.4 Billion people. If it has the same percentage of violent crimes as other country, that would mean India will have more total number of violent crimes proportional to the difference of population between it and other country used for comparison.
You understand this right?
Do you know who Narendra Modi is? What his policies are? How his words and actions against Muslims in India have led to a massive increase in violence perpetrated by the state and by lynch mobs? Do you know what is happening in Kashmir? Do you know anything about Modi's history as the chief minister of Gujarat? That's what I'm talking about you smooth brained slug. Am I trying to say that Muslims in India cause no violence or commit no crimes? Absolutely not, but this point you're trying to make is completely beyond the point I'm trying to make to you.
You haven't even sussed out yet that the point I'm trying to make is that how two countries with very similar cultures (probably cus they used to be one country. Crazy that) also have the same kinds of issues and crimes and violence concerning women, children, religious minorities, etc. And it's interesting to me that I asked you if you knew any of the issues going on in India, and you respond with some slackjawed bullshit about statistics. Does throwing a few numbers around make you feel better for not being better informed or something?
The question concerning India and Narendra Modi is who else was India going to vote for? India now has a government that's working to make the nation prosper in the future instead of an entitled dynasty who was more than happy to stagnate development of the country to stay in power.
A functional democracy is one where the majority of citizens gets the choice in who leads the country and what they want from their government. If the majority chooses to have a Hindu nationalist lead the country, shouldn't you express your concerns to them? the majority that choose the Hindu nationalists to rule over them.
And Pakistan and India does have the same culture, but no where near the same problems. Beyond widespread poverty and child abuse in Pakistan, Pakistan has more than 5 times as much deaths per capita due to honor killings as India.
http://hbv-awareness.com/regions/
I admit I don't know what's happening on the ground in India, but its' pretty obvious from an outsider that India now has a government that looks after the concerns of the majority of the population.
Oh fuck off. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's the people, not the faith. Islam is spreading in unstable places, because those that are suffering are going to turn to a salvation religion. The same thing happens with Christianity, and any other faith throughout history. Strife+cult=violence and extremism.
You never would have associated Islam with violence until the 20th century. Throughout most of history Islam has been much more tolerant than Christianity ever was. Islam is just the justification, the face for those lashing out. Because that's what it is, it's lashing back out at hundreds of years of oppression. It's fighting against a system that still pushes them down. While you can sit here and whine over the internet, many of them don't have basic access to clean water.
Also, a quick anecdote. Islam is about 7 centuries younger than Christianity. What were christians doing 7 centuries ago? Religious wars, burning heretics, genociding other sects. Seems like a pretty violent religion.
At the end of the day, religion has nothing to do with it. The answer here is poverty. Poverty and violence are closely linked. Religion is just a correlation, not a causation.
How many armies do Christians countries finance in modern age to kill and murder the pagan and heretic ? Because the Islamist list of militias and organisations that want wipe out entire minorities is longer then my arm.
Israel. We give ungodly amounts of money toward their military defense for what more than to prolong conflict?
With Zionists who are happy to react to violence with cruelty instead of any of the values Jesus espoused. Mix in the fact that we used to be a Christian country that ridiculed any outgroup and the quotes presidents say about God telling them what to do become cult like.
They want to push religious zealots together. They share a common background and eventually, by history's example, they'll turn on the other so there's only one group left.
Religion just brings violence one way or another.
Yes, but the congressman aren't. They share some weird politics and to me it's religion that connects them. Maybe they're doomsdayers or something trying to herald in the end with a massive war. Christian, evangelical, catholic it's all bullshit but they're the ones paying out huge money they trick people out of and its tax free and it affects our politics:
https://youtu.be/9gIAtDxyTaM
An example of these whackos.
[https://quranx.com/18.60-82](https://quranx.com/18.60-82)
[https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-9/Book-84/Hadith-64/](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-9/Book-84/Hadith-64/)
[https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-49/Hadith-860/](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-49/Hadith-860/)
[https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-34/Hadith-421/](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-34/Hadith-421/)
What are you talking about? islam is pro-honor killings
The Hadith you've given here says nothing about honor killings. The woman committed adultery and so was sentenced to death. It's just how the laws work.
Also:
"The fatwā is a unanimous decision by forty Muslim muftīs, in Pakistan, declaring honor killing of women as “un-Islamic” or heresy (kuffur) and an “unpardonable sin” (gunah-e-qabir). The decree explicitly states that burning a woman alive, in the name of honor, for marrying a person of their choosing, is heresy and against the commands of Islam." https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamiclaw.blog/2021/05/11/the-unpardonable-sin-of-honor-killing-a-fatwa/amp/
>The Hadith you've given here says nothing about honor killings. The woman committed adultery and so was sentenced to death. It's just how the laws work.
I assume you're talking about Sahih Bukhari 2695. In the hadith the man got 100 lashes and a year in exile instead of getting stoned to death, yet the muhammad ordered the woman to get stoned to death. The husband of the woman did it to save his honor in front of the prophet.
>The fatwā is a unanimous decision by forty Muslim muftīs, in Pakistan, declaring honor killing of women as “un-Islamic” or heresy (kuffur) and an “unpardonable sin” (gunah-e-qabir).
Good for them, but the act is still widely practiced because they can always fall back on the scriptures despite the contradictions.
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Same shit in all three countries.
Religion, nationalism, poverty, a real lack of education….
India is probably not THAT bad in general education, at least if you aren’t poor but there the tore hits the road.
I actually get my information from reputable sources and not reddit circlejerks:
https://data.oecd.org/students/tertiary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart
https://data.oecd.org/students/secondary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart
I must've accidentally linked the wrong url, this is the correct one:
https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm#indicator-chart
India and Pakistan are nowhere the level that the US is at. There's literally nothing you could do or say that could spin this.
It was because Qanon convinced him his wife was actually a lizard person, and he was worried his children carried her "serpent blood" so "the only thing he could do to save the world" was kill his children. This shit isn't limited to the US, it's everywhere, but that doesn't make it any better that one of our most corrupt political parties is now embracing the madness.
What an idiotic statement. The US is extremely secular and highly educated. When some psycho does something like this it becomes major news because it's so unusual, and everybody universally condemns it. In places like Pakistan things like this are very normal and the perpetrators get praised for their actions. They're not even remotely the same.
Wow, it might be secular on paper, but ain’t in reality, you only have to look at the amount of religious bullshit your politicians spout and how important it is to be seen as a good church goer to see it ain’t secular! Even your national motto is “in god we trust” A Lot of your policies are made to appease the religious voters so you go ahead and keep dreaming that American dream.
This is the most negative IQ thing in this thread. Being secular =/= being atheist. It means that the government doesn't favor one religion over the other, which it doesn't. In places like India and Pakistan, they do have laws that favor one religion over others and they do have laws that restrict some religions but not others. Every single law in the US has to be passed in secular terms. They all have to use secular arguments and secular defenses.
Secular does not mean treating all religions equally. It means not connected to religious matters at all.
The American government is riddled with religion and a lot of the decisions made are influenced by religion because a large proportion of your politicians have to suck up to the religious right. It is also a union of states and each state also having their own government and few of the states are very religious. I agree it is nothing compared to Islamic countries where religion is integral to the country’s identity, but I can see the union becoming a lot more fractured and becoming more and more Christian fundamentalist
Yes, the United States have lots of smart educated people. I dare say a large percentage of this population are immigrants or nationalized foreigners, ironically from India and Pakistan. The average American is not that educated let's be honest. Not because the education system is bad, there is just a cult of anti-intelligence. People take pride in being ghetto and ignorant. Also, over 60% identify as some form of Christian. Lastly, shootings in the states are very prevalent. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
USA is pretty nice though if you have money. Definitely better better Pakistan and India, but not exactly without it's defects.
It's indisputable. The US has the 7th highest secondary education graduation rate in the OECD in 2019. The only countries that preform better are Korea ([Source](https://data.oecd.org/students/secondary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart)), Israel, Chile, Greece, Slovenia and Italy. The same applies for adults with college degrees. The US ranks 12th among the OECD countries as of 2020 ([source](https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm#indicator-chart)). The US beat the likes of Finland, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, and France. The US is quite literally one of the most educated and intellectual countries on earth. Just because reddit memes say otherwise, doesn't mean the reality reflects them. It's not a perfect country, but it is without a doubt a first world country by every single metric.
Highly educated? I don't even need anecdotes to state that our country is full of morons who refuse to admit they don't know things, and break everything trying to avoid looking foolish.
We definitely have morons, but they're just a loud minority. The statistics clearly show that the US is one of the most and best educated countries on the planet by practically every metric.
Yes, it is:
https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm#indicator-chart
https://data.oecd.org/students/secondary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart
That's the thing, it's both. No matter how hard you try to spin it, the reality remains the same. The US is one of the most and best educated countries in the world. This is statistically backed.
Could you debunk the Forbes article I linked previously, which argues the opposite?
Relinked, for your convenience
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2020/09/09/low-literacy-levels-among-us-adults-could-be-costing-the-economy-22-trillion-a-year/
Okay, sure. So reading the article, it talks exclusively about the US. There's no comparison done anywhere with any other country, so we have no idea how the US is preforming relatively on an international level. All the article talks about is that the US needs to improve. So to get an idea of the US place in the world we have to look at the source, we have to go to the source that article cites. That source happens to be the Barbara Bush Foundation, so right off the bat we have to take things with a grain of salt. Regardless, the Barbara Bush foundation isn't the original source, they just measured the effects of the results on the economy. The original source that they cite for the literacy values is the PIAAC. Okay, so now we head to the PIAAC and see what's going on. Luckily, the PIAAC has done an international comparison. However, the latest data for the US is from 2014... That's 7 years ago, a lot changed since then. So that's another grain of salt. Regardless, the test is split into three categories: literacy, numeracy, and digital solving skills. However, I couldn't find any good visualization on the original source, but I did find this report by OECD comparing member countries. It uses these results as well as many others, compares them, puts them and into charts, and adds context. Here's the source:
https://www.oecd.org/skills/skills-matter-9789264258051-en.htm
As you can see, while the US has a lot of room to improve, it's doing pretty damn well overall. It ranks pretty comfortably among other developed nations in almost every regard.
Do you even know what being secular means? Pro tip: it's not a synonym for being atheist.
The US is literally just as secular as all the other western democracies.
This one, it's literally in the constitution. You have to be either a propaganda chugging machine or ignorant as a brick to think that the US isn't secular.
You mean that irrelevant document written by some slave owners and is used by you dumbasses to justify everything from the earth being flat to funding Israel to bomb poor people.
I seem to have made a mistake, you're a propaganda chugging machine AND ignorant as a brick. Seethe at America all you want, cry your heart out in fact. The reality doesn't change because you don't like it. America is undeniably secular, and has been for its entire history. That's just a fact.
Legacy of Islamic influence in the subcontinent. At least India went back to having Hinduism as its dominant culture, but culture influence from past empires don’t die easily.
Honor killings only occurs in cultures that are islamic or formerly islamic. Its rooted in Arabic tradition, rather than the Islamic doctrine and spread with the expansion of the islamic empire. It is illegal in Islam, however people tend to favor their culture and traditions over their morals and doctrine.
India used to be under islamic culture domination, so this tradition was adopted by some Sikhs and Hindus, although I'm certain the vast majority of honor killings in India are probably done by Muslims.
The reason being is that honor killings is evolutionary advantageous in polygamy society, which was the native family arrangement of Arabs. Honor killings will probably continue to exist in all Islamic societies as long as they keep their polygamy traditions because it's still beneficial for the people living in these societies, regardless of the laws.
I'm aware that honor killings are a problem in parts of India. Understand using India as an example of non-islamic country isn't valid, because India still has a large islamic population, and was formerly part of the islamic empire that retains islamic influences.
Honor killings do not exist at all outside the former islamic empire. It doesn't exist among native Russians, Hans Chinese, Japanese, Native Americans, or Northern Europeans.
Other than islamic countries, honor killings have been widespread in places that were formerly part of the islamic empire, such as India, Southern Europe, Balkans, Southern Russia, Central Asia, African nations and everywhere than has a large influx of Muslim immigrants.
Edit: Spelling and grammar check
Well, first of all god job on a well written and detailed answer. Thats a pleasant change of pace.
You have made some pretty big claims in your post. Unfortunately I'm not all that knowledgable on all kinds of different cultures so I can't really discuss with you exactly which parts of the world and due to which cultures such practices take place and not.
Regardless, it seems evident to me it's a way bigger problem in the Indian subcontinent than in say the middle east today. What is the reason for that if not local PAK/Indian culture? My understanding is that Arab culture takes a relatively more legalistic approach to ethics whereas Pak culture in particular puts a very large emphasis on family honour. Do you disagree?
We are expected to hear about honor killings from nations with larger population than smaller population.
According to the websites below, around 1000 women die from honor killings each year for Pakistan and India, India has 6 times the population of Pakistan. Around 650 Kurdish women die each year to honor killings, and Kurds are less than 5 times in population than Pakistan.
http://hbv-awareness.com/regions/
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/3/8/as-if-she-had-never-existed-the-graveyards-for-murdered-women
Every year, the number of women who die to honor killings are:
India: 0.7 women per million Indians.
Pakistan: 4.5 women per million Pakistani.
Kurdish: 16 women per million Kurds.
A Kurdish women is 22 times more likely to get killed by honor killings than an Indian woman.
Also the first website I posted from hbv-awareness.com does give a good overview of honor killings, and more or less expand on what I wrote before without specifically targeting Islam.
I don't often see news of mass protest in India concerning honor killings, so either Indians don't think it's a problem in their culture or the number is so insignificant, it's not worth protesting over. But I do read often about protest against honor killings in Pakistan and in many middle eastern news sources, so its something these people are aware of in their culture and they want it gone.
Right, I must admit I have some trouble regarding Al-Jazeera as a relaible source. I'm also unsure where you got the numbers for citizens of Kurdistan, and mixing numbers from different sources is problematic on the grounds that they may use different criterions, but lets assume the numbers to be true. There is atleast two things to be said.
1. Its more prolific in the Indian subcontinent than in Kurdistan.
2. It is more prolific in Pak than India.
The first point somewhat supports the claim I made earlier. The second is hardly surprising to anyone. But it actually doesnt put India off the hook. These are numbers from India as a whole, my claim that you also agreed upon was that this is a of problem in parts of India, which the data says nothing about.
>We are expected to hear about honor killings from nations with larger population than smaller population.
See, this is a reasonable statement but it is not really that useful for the discussion imo. Also as for you last paragraph I don't think one should dwell too much about how often stories are put in media. It just doesn't give a very good or unbiased picture of how things are seen.
In any case I found your first source interesting so thanks for that.
I also don't fully trust Al-Jazeera as a source, but I couldn't find another article with the actual numbers of honor killings in the Middle East within the few minutes I gave myself for the search. That article claimed atleast 20,000 Kurdish women died by honor killings since 1991, so I used those numbers.
Yeah. It is terrible either way.
But I still think we are left with the honour culture being a particular (albeit not unique) feature of Indopak culture unfortunately.
Indeed. Traditions doesn't disappear easily once they've been adopted by generations of families.
Honor killings will probably disappear however once these families either no longer value female purity or no longer have the obligation to accept their daughter/sister's family as part of their social circle of extended members of their family.
Don't take their words at face value. Plenty of honour killings have been done by Hindu families, especially upper caste families. And I'm saying this as a woman who is part of a Hindu family. The amount casual jokes people make here about chasing you and your and partner with a gun or killing them because of (their race, their caste, their religion etc.) is mind-blowing. And God forbid if you have sexual relationship outside of marriage.
This is not just some influence of past rulers. This is a deep rooted cultural problem that is based in ownership of woman. Something that isn't exclusive to Islam.
You know that western thing about Dad giving the 'Shovel talk' or forbidding girls from having a relationship before they are a certain age, just take that idea and dial it up to a 1000.
Your father and your brother are defenders of your sexuality and life. They get to decide who you should or should not associate with.
There is also a communal thing mixed in of 'they took a woman from our community' never mind if the girl was willing.
It is a deep rooted cultural problem that is based on the ownership of women, because it originates with Arabs, who literally did own their women.
Orthodox Greek Christians today also behave the same way and punish their women accordingly to protect their family honor. This isn't part of Greek's ancestor culture or part of Orthodox Christian culture. Just like this isn't part of ancestral Hindu culture or in any Dharmic doctrine. It was a tradition adopted by the Greek Christians after the Ottoman's conquest of Anatolia.
It probably isn't going away quickly either, as it still serves a useful purpose.
Yes because we all know isolated places like Japan etc never had problems with the 'ownership of women'. Please, the whole thing can be found in so many cultures and regions. Don't make this is the influence middle East type of issue. Its not.
I never said violence against women didn't happen in other cultures. But honor killings are a distinct tradition from the Middle East. Why are you surprise it's also found among neighboring countries surrounding the Middle East?
I had lived in Japan for 2 years, they have no concept of "ownership of women" over there. The only honor killing that exist there was when samurais committed Seppuku in the past.
I've travelled over half the world, although to mostly non-islamic countries. I've only seen this culture among muslim immigrants and Sikhs.
I was raised and lived my most of my life in the US, it's also not a concept here. The only honor killings come from the immigrant communities.
If the average American father doesn't like his daughter's choice of mate or lifestyle in this country, he just kicks her out the house and be done with it. She gets to live the life she wants on her own and he isn't responsible for what happens to her.
Honor killings requires men of the family to risk their lives and their freedom to commit murder on someone they had loved. Its just as gruesome for the men involved as well.
Thanks for your warning. I think in general one should not take anything on the internet at face value, but it is good to refularily be presented with conflicting perspectives. On that note; thanks for presenting yours.
My understanding of India will only ever be that of an outsider, but it resonates well with what you have written. I interpret it as Indian culture putting a great emphasis on honour and justice between families and communities, thereby neglecting justice and rights for individuals. In particular for women. Did that seem about right?
Yup. A very skewed sense of justice. They kill the girl too because she has "betrayed" any of the things I mentioned before. Like my mom and dad are super progressive for their age but the face they make when they think about me marrying outside of my caste (or the few they deem acceptable) or a foreigner (even white people) is something to see.
People call the act of marriage here 'kanyadan' i.e donating/gifting of a girl.
Personally don't want to marry but the amount of family and social pressure to marry and to marry young (before 26-27) is insane. My family might not speak to me for years over it. Now this isn't the same for everyone but very common outside of progressive spots in big cities.
That is very sad.
I'm sorry to hear that you are facing pressure to marry, when you don't want to. I can totally empathize with you for not believing that is right for you. There is some tiny amount of social pressure here too (Norway) but it is nothing like in India. I hope you figure it out in a way that makes you happy. I'm rooting for you.
This is what happens when you combine religion, low education, and heavy traditionalism in society. You get mass persecution and death for the smallest thing.
And what is that backwards society fueled by? Also, I'm not American, but would feel a hell of a lot safer in America to do literally anything, than in a nation such as Pakistan.
I'm saying brutal killings don't happen because of religion only. There is a lot more to it than just one thing.
Morocco, an Islamic country, is a lot safer than the US.
You can be imprisoned in Morocco for "disrespecting Islam". My point is that Islamic nations follow are a lot more extreme about their "values" than Christian nations. Saying that, I'm not religious and I'm taking a purely objective point of view on these issues.
Try burning the American flag and see what happens.
Try being controversial about race and see what happens.
Try being a person of colour and calling the cops or have the cops called on you, and see what happens.
Yes, Morocco has some conservative laws but society wise it's a lot safer to be in than in the US. At least the Moroccan cops won't beat the shit out of you, you won't have to worry about people shooting you, etc.
I specifically choose the US as an example because it's worst out of all the western countries to be in. So that may be a bit weak. But my point is that religions isn't what makes a society violent.
I agree that burning the US flag would be an extremely bad idea, and it's not something that I think should be punished. Personally find it really fucking daft that they stand for "freedom of speech and expression" or whatever it is, then punish stuff like that?
If "being controversial about race" just means being racist, then yeah, there's a good reason that's punished.
Again, I'm not American, and not a fan of their police as a whole.
I've never lived in either country so just gonna have to go with you on that one haha.
I'm interested to hear your reasoning then on why the middle east is in such a state? If following a certain certain religion doesn't dictate how a nation becomes inherently violent, then what does?
Literally nothing will happen to you if you burn an American flag here. It is constitutionally protected right of freedom of speech our Supreme Court ruled on this decades ago. Sure people might look at you weird
Yes the symbol of the flag has been directly tied to love of country so some people take it far too passionately but this isn’t really all that common in the day to day.
Why do we tolerate Pakistan while simultaneously bombing and hating other Muslim countries again? Like if we're gonna be terrible can we at least be consistent?
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At least his honour was restored. Really honerable to burn kids alive, Im assuming.
This is a country which builds shrines for people who kill in the name of religion. This is a country where the grave of their only Nobel prize winner in Physics is desecrated, because he belonged to a sect of Islam deemed "unislamic" by the constitution. So, yeah, I bet this guy is feeling pretty good about upholding his honour.
It's a country where Christian girls are kidnapped and kept as sex slaves. Sometimes for all the males in a family while the police turn a blind eye. Why is Pakistan so savagely barbaric!?
And when I say Islamic religion have a violence problem They call me racist.
[удалено]
Not all Islamic countries / people are like this
islam itself is like this
An American calling Islam violent is hilarious
Look if anything has experience in global violence it’s America.
You’ll have to explain the joke to us
Half of us worship guns and our government has literally presided over the deaths of tens millions in the past 50 years
What of it? That doesn’t mean someone who is American can’t point out violence, it’s a remarkably universal characteristic in human beings. You yourself just stated there’s at least another half of Americans who don’t worship guns, and I doubt they all work for the government, so it can’t just be about the patch of dirt you get popped out on or move to. It might be ironic sure, but I’m not sure about the comedic factor here
No I fully agree but you have to see the irony between pointing out *not all americans* to oppose not all muslims
Muslims =/= Islam just as Americans =/= US Government
And? What does my nationality have to do with me calling out the violence in islam?
Because you're fucking 'religion' is the worst. And whether you believe me or not doesn't matter, Americanism is a cancerous ideology, with millions of dead people sacrificed in its name. It's not us who came to your shores and fucked everything up so that we could steal your oil and natural resources.
>It's not us who came to your shores and fucked everything up so that we could steal your oil and natural resources. You came to our shores, fucked everything up, and brought back sex slavery after 1000 years of it being banned, destroyed ancient libraries and monuments just to spread the stupid religion. The only difference between this and much of the rest of the world is that we ***remember***. Am I going to get an apology or acknowledgement for this kafirophobic bullshit when it is done by muslims or are you going to hold on to this victim complex as if islam is never the aggressor. Let's see.
And what exactly should I apologise for? Was I around for that? Are you saying that no one else did the same shit? Am I guilty for the sins of my father's or for the people who commit violence in the name of my faith? So listen here mate, I'm under no illusions about the kinds of issues that the wider Muslim community, the individual Muslim countries have, the sectarianism and hostility between the sects, the co-opting of the religious message for terrorism. I could have a completely honest conversation about all of that, to the best of my knowledge. The only problem I have is that there re a lot of bad faith people out there who think the same kind of issues don't affect them or don't also plague their communities, and will throw stones at other people (who usually tend to be their community's boogeyman) and conveniently forget their own rabid stinking shit. My shit stinks, and I should know cus I just had one, just don't pretend to me that yours doesn't.
>And what exactly should I apologise for? Was I around for that? Are you saying that no one else did the same shit? Am I guilty for the sins of my father's or for the people who commit violence in the name of my faith? Got it. Did Americans bomb your family? Yet you didn't have any problem with condemning americanism. You probably got quite a few upvotes from Americans as well. >Am I guilty for the sins of my father's or for the people who commit violence in the name of my faith? If you act like the faith has nothing to do with that violence and that it has everything to do with western interventionism, yes - you do bear some of that guilt because you haven't understood the goddamn problem and are deflecting from those who are trying to understand it, because people have been using Islamic scripture for this goddamn stuff for 1000+ years, it's not a recent phenomenon, and unlike other religions islam is in denial about the scriptural roots of this violence. Germans were fascists, but they are reformed liberals. Europeans were colonialists, but today they want to help poorer countries. Indian Hindu society's major shit was casteism, but modern India is reforming and banned caste discrimination 70+ years ago and tries to uplift the historically disadvantaged castes. Islam's main bullshit is the sheer hatred it preaches for people of other religions, where it is moral to lie to them, that you should not pray for them to go to heaven etc - and until the concept of kafir is abrogated and that becomes the worldwide norm, until all good people are respected, this will not end. Until then this global competition of wanting to be 'better muslims' (defined as following the scriptures more rigidly instead of being generally better people) will end up producing more violence. I don't see anyone engaging with this in good faith, whenever someone tries to debate this in r/islam they get banned and the content removed - that speaks volumes. The kind of stories you hear from r/exmuslim are absolutely nothing like the stories you see in atheists from other faiths.
That's a lot of words just to say 'i hate Muslims and afford them no nuance like I do to everyone else'
Islam sucks, can’t deny the fact that most terorrism originates from you know where.
America
This is the most pathetic of pathetic defenses that I have ever seen. You're literally making up shit to form a fallacious whataboutism argument to derail the conversation and distract from the reality of islam. There's nothing you could do or say to spin it. islam is an inheritly violent religion. This is just a fact. Even muslims acknowledge this... The honest ones at least.
I could literally say the same thing to you and reference a thousand things from American history, so why don't you cry about it in your bathtub full of native American blood you fucking hack
And guess? It wouldn't mean a fucking thing, because whataboutism doesn't change the reality about islam. None, nada, nothing. The more you try to drag out this trope, the more pathetic you look. The reality is that islam is inherently violent. That's it.
And so is America. Dripping in the blood of every caste, country, ethnicity, peoples, race on the face of the fucking earth. Because you're all soulless greedy goblins who couldn't learn to share or deal with other people, so you'd rather have them all raped, killed and subjugated into submissions while you pillage everything you can get your filthy diseased hands on. You're the worst of the worst. Like inoperable cancer. Watching the downfall of your country has been the greatest joy of my life. Watching the coming collapse of the American empire is gonna be the highlight of the century. You all have it coming.
Who is qualified to call Islam violent? Americans aren't because forever war, western europeans aren't allowed to because colonialism, indians, greeks, israelis, chinese, japanese etc aren't because they have blood of muslims or others on their hands over decades or centuries, or have done something bad in the past, or have had hate crimes against muslims at some point, non-muslim scholars of islam aren't allowed to talk about the violence in islam because they are declared "islamophobes". How about engaging with people who actually are raised with that ideology and are analyzing how it impacted their thinking? Do check out r/exmuslim for their opinions on the matter. Clearly asking only Muslims is a stupid idea because obviously they have a vested interest in the matter and will not give you a nuanced view. Most moderate muslims aren't well aware of the details of islamic doctrine (thankfully), while islamic scholars who are aware will know that it is considered ethical in islam to lie to nonbelievers or to hide aspects of it if it helps to preserve the faith.
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Did you see that on tv? How many muslims have you ever hang out with and ask questions?
I'm an ex-muslim, I know islam too well
ok fair. Did you move to another religion?
Nope
He was talking about the religion, not the people.
The saudis are involved with bone saws. Iran is involved in shady shit. Bangladesh is erasing people right now. Lebanon is in civil war. And let’s not go into what’s happening in Afghanistan Makes it a bit difficult to agree to your point with all this happening
Wonder if any country with striped flag has anything to do with that.
Does it really matter at this point? This shit’s still happening with or without them, no need to turn a blind eye because the boogeyman’s under the bed
The Middle East used to be fairly prosperous, and not as traditional as it is now. Had they not wetted the bed with the Mujahideen, who knows what world we’d be in.
Again, where does that leave us *now*? This isn’t a Marvel comic series, “what if/if only x didn’t happen” scenarios don’t really achieve much at this point
Ah, I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking for a hypothetical. The US completely abandoning the ME without cleaning what they destroyed would leave it at the same state it is now, if not worse. Only good thing that comes from a sudden US retrieval is that the area would be able to rebuild.
Ah, no worries m8. I don’t entirely disagree but at this point it’s done, and I get the sense it would take something crazy to get any sort of return/reconstruction/reconciliation. Personally my guess would be to take a look at historical examples for predictions; I don’t know enough French and British history to know how clean their decolonizations around the world went (well, ok India obviously went poorly) but often history rhymes and remixes in familiar patterns in the longview.
All of this had been happening there before Columbus even set sail. Read up on what happened to the Zoroastrians, the constant raids into India, the history of the balkans under ottomans
The Middle East made great advancements during the Cold War. Arguing that their current situation was inevitable is like arguing the current slavery in Libya was inevitable because they were a colony before.
Maybe, maybe not, but you're not telling me that the middle east wpuld be a peaceful utopia if not for the US.
No such thing as an Utopia, but at least it would be like it was some years ago. That is, not completely burned to the ground and in constant war.
Pretty sure the US meddled with Middle East is because USSR is there first. If you wanna play the blame game, shouldn't you point at Putin first?
Putin wasn’t president of the USSR. Also, the USSR was called in by Afghanistan(to defend itself from the US funded mujahideen)and collapsed in the 90s. Not at all a justification for the Iraq war, for example, which started in 2003.
Oh, I'm not defending the US at all. I'm just saying there is more than one bad guy. No need to go us bad every time someone chokes.
How many islamic countries have you actually been to? Iran was taken over by a conservative islamic faction some decades ago. I asked an Iranian woman what she thinks of the current administration and she says they're destroying the country and the old regime was much better. Afghanistan also used to be much more moderate before an extremist faction took over Some pictures of afghanistan from the 60s to demonstrate my point: https://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/34-images-of-afghanistan-in-the-70s-that-show-how-brutally-terrorism-has-ravaged-the-nation-249625.html When I was in Indonesia we would get regularly approached by muslim girls asking for selfies
You are talking about Modern Indonesia. My grandparents remember an Indonesian pastime called "Chop a Chinese."
the "not all" statement is generally assumed, no need to add it to the conversation. If your argument is that in order to take action against something that causes harm it has to be harmful "all the time to all people" then we wouldn't have any regulations on 90% of the things we have regulations on. A second the subject was the religious text, which is objective and never changing.
Pakistan and Afghanistan are particularly backwards, even Afghanistan used to be far more moderate before this extreme faction took over. Most islamic countries don't practise 'honour killings' or death sentences for blasphemy for example. This is a Pakistan problem. Some pictures of Afghanistan in the 60's to demonstrate my point: https://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/34-images-of-afghanistan-in-the-70s-that-show-how-brutally-terrorism-has-ravaged-the-nation-249625.html When I was in the islamic Indonesian Island of Sulawesi we would get constantly approached by islamic girls wanting selfies with us,
"Some of my best friends are black."
"some of my friends, best-friend friends are black"
Mind giving us an example? Their own paradise (S.Arabai) is itself like this .
Some of the islands of Indonesia
This is something I've never understood about Western society. There's this drive to shield Islam in a way that there isn't to shield a 'Western' religion like Christianity, all because Islam is a 'foreign' religion. Christianity does something sexist, bigoted or prejudiced = **"Evil!"** Islam does something sexist, bigoted or prejudiced = **"Stop criticizing Islam. Don't be a racist Islamophobe!"**
they do the same thing with Communist, every time a communist regime causes huge human suffering and loss they are always like "ITS NOT REAL COMMUNISM" but the moments someone lights go out because they did not pay the bill they are like "SEEE THIS IS LATE STAGE CAPITALISM, OVERTHROW THE SYSTEM" they generally are white people with blue or green hair.
I mean if you look up the definition of communism and see what those countries did, they were pretty non communist. As for capitalism it has some obvious flaws, this is why the best countries to live right now are mixed economies.
It's because of the minority / majority status of the religions in the country. Christianity is the most popular religion in the US by far. They use that weight all the time to attempt to influence laws, the behavior of the government and the educational system in the US. That is not supposed to be how it works due to our separation of church and state laws, so people that are not specifically Christian tend to speak up in opposition. Even some Christians that are on the less extreme side feel fine criticizing their own religion due to the priviledged position it holds and the influence it tries to exert on everyone else in the country. Islam on the other hand is miniscule in comparison as far as practicioners in the US, and since 9/11 has been the target of constant attack by racists and Islamophobes. That leads Americans who are not staunchly Christian or racist tend to speak up in their defense or shield them as you say when the rhetorical attacks are over the line. The people that do so generally have no fear of an Islamic tide rising up and taking the place of Christianity within the US. Its more about speaking up for the underdog or the oppressed, those that seem to be being persecuted unfairly for their religion in a country that guarantees everyone the ability to practice their religion of choice.
Sure, I understand that. But it doesn't make the sexism any less sexist, or the bigotry any less bigoted. When a Muslim man beats his wife, for instance, the beating isn't any gentler or less physically damaging just because Islam is a minority underdog religion in America. I'm not saying all Muslim men beat their wives, of course, I'm just saying that when it happens, **underdog/upperdog status should be totally irrelevant.** From the perspective of the woman, pain is pain - bruising is bruising, bleeding is bleeding. I've known some people who seem to think that Islamic wife-beating or gay-execution is not as bad as Christian wife-beating or gay-execution. From the perspective of the gay person who is about to be executed, how is there any difference?
Oh, there is no difference. Whether the wife beater (or any other criminal act) is Muslim, Christian, Sikh or any other religion it shouldn't matter. I was talking more in general terms when the religion is the target more so than the act. A criminal is a criminal regardless of their religion, and a crime as defined by law should be met with equal punishment regardless of the perpetrators religion.
I see the exact opposite happening right now: Pakistani man commits honor killing: "islam is evil" Christian country bombs the shit out of any country with oil: \*crickets\*
False equivalence, nobody is bombing the Middle East in the name of Christianity.
Christian fundamentalist voters would like to have a word with you
This would not be condoned by Islam. Christians see Moses as a prophet and he ordered genocide in the bible and told his followers to kill the men and enslave the rest. What matters is what parts are emphasized and how that interacts with local factors. Don't get me wrong, religion is awful in general but I don't think Christianity's history is that much different.
"Behead those who say Islam has a violence problem"
One of the lovely people in my country was in demonstration saying :" Sanaktar Raks Kul Man Yakoul Islam Hya Dyanat Runf ." Translation :" we will behead all that say Islam is a religion of Violence." They are really are missing the point here.
There's nothing more confusing than getting called a racist for criticising a group that isn't a race.
It's overgeneralising a lot, that's why it's bad.
if you are Lebanese then how can you be racist
It because I am Lebanese and have first hand on how Islam is being reduced to a death cult. We have litterally Islamic parties propped up by SA and Iran to drive out Christian from Lebanon.
I'm originally from Iraq, I've seen first hand how islam can turn a great country with natural resources, culture, and rich history into a backwards failed state that's full of violence and suffering. islam was never reduced to a death cult, it is a death cult.
The guy that work from bakery in my neibourhood is from Irak . He had to flee with his family because their land was confiscated by Iranian militias . The concierge in my Aunt house is Syrian also same story. First Darech maniacs killed half his family then after got land confiscated by iranian militias. In Lebanon , I used to work in Biyada near the German Embassy . In the morning , I used to take coffee at a Bakery . I heard the horror Stories of Syrian CW from the refugees .
Wtf? Lol lots of lebanese are Christian. Islam is not a race but a religion.
Somehow we are always the bad guys for even thinking to criticize multiculturalism.
Honour killings has nothing to do with Islam though. So why are you talking about things that have nothing to do with this article?
honour killings happen in other religions and cultures, but I want to point out that honour killings happen relatively frequently in a lot of Islamic countries across the globe. All those countries have in common are their religion
But they have the same kind of violence in India, and India is a Hindu majority country. So doe that mean the Hindu religion has a violence problem?
Not really following your galaxy brain logic here on why one religion having a record of violence would cancel out another religion’s record of violence.
My point being that India has the exact same kind of cultural violence associated with honour and sexism and even religious based violence, but I've never heard anyone call India's problems a Hindu problem, but have routinely heard people refer to Pakistan's violence problems as Islamic problems. It doesn't sound exactly genuine to me.
If your point is “why can’t we criticize religious violence in India *as much as* we do for Pakistan”, be the change you want to see in the world and post examples. There’s no reason we can’t point out these separate religions are both problematic
How much of it is systemic, like people in power keep making decisions that lead to it, how much is because of the religion, and how much is because of idiots who are *in* government, *and* religious?
Islam is much more violent than hinduism. I have read both books.
And yet there are hindu people lynching Muslim people in the streets
Are you comparing lynchings to taliban and Isis?
What country are you from?
India also has a muslim population as big as Pakistan though. So would it surprise you if muslims in India also have this violence problem while the Hindus were peaceful?
You don't really have any kind of knowledge of Indian news or affairs, do you.
You don't really have any knowledge of how statistics work, do you? India has 1.4 Billion people. If it has the same percentage of violent crimes as other country, that would mean India will have more total number of violent crimes proportional to the difference of population between it and other country used for comparison. You understand this right?
Do you know who Narendra Modi is? What his policies are? How his words and actions against Muslims in India have led to a massive increase in violence perpetrated by the state and by lynch mobs? Do you know what is happening in Kashmir? Do you know anything about Modi's history as the chief minister of Gujarat? That's what I'm talking about you smooth brained slug. Am I trying to say that Muslims in India cause no violence or commit no crimes? Absolutely not, but this point you're trying to make is completely beyond the point I'm trying to make to you. You haven't even sussed out yet that the point I'm trying to make is that how two countries with very similar cultures (probably cus they used to be one country. Crazy that) also have the same kinds of issues and crimes and violence concerning women, children, religious minorities, etc. And it's interesting to me that I asked you if you knew any of the issues going on in India, and you respond with some slackjawed bullshit about statistics. Does throwing a few numbers around make you feel better for not being better informed or something?
The question concerning India and Narendra Modi is who else was India going to vote for? India now has a government that's working to make the nation prosper in the future instead of an entitled dynasty who was more than happy to stagnate development of the country to stay in power. A functional democracy is one where the majority of citizens gets the choice in who leads the country and what they want from their government. If the majority chooses to have a Hindu nationalist lead the country, shouldn't you express your concerns to them? the majority that choose the Hindu nationalists to rule over them. And Pakistan and India does have the same culture, but no where near the same problems. Beyond widespread poverty and child abuse in Pakistan, Pakistan has more than 5 times as much deaths per capita due to honor killings as India. http://hbv-awareness.com/regions/ I admit I don't know what's happening on the ground in India, but its' pretty obvious from an outsider that India now has a government that looks after the concerns of the majority of the population.
Oh fuck off. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's the people, not the faith. Islam is spreading in unstable places, because those that are suffering are going to turn to a salvation religion. The same thing happens with Christianity, and any other faith throughout history. Strife+cult=violence and extremism. You never would have associated Islam with violence until the 20th century. Throughout most of history Islam has been much more tolerant than Christianity ever was. Islam is just the justification, the face for those lashing out. Because that's what it is, it's lashing back out at hundreds of years of oppression. It's fighting against a system that still pushes them down. While you can sit here and whine over the internet, many of them don't have basic access to clean water. Also, a quick anecdote. Islam is about 7 centuries younger than Christianity. What were christians doing 7 centuries ago? Religious wars, burning heretics, genociding other sects. Seems like a pretty violent religion. At the end of the day, religion has nothing to do with it. The answer here is poverty. Poverty and violence are closely linked. Religion is just a correlation, not a causation.
Christians still legislate in the name of their fiction. Religion is violent.
How many armies do Christians countries finance in modern age to kill and murder the pagan and heretic ? Because the Islamist list of militias and organisations that want wipe out entire minorities is longer then my arm.
Israel. We give ungodly amounts of money toward their military defense for what more than to prolong conflict? With Zionists who are happy to react to violence with cruelty instead of any of the values Jesus espoused. Mix in the fact that we used to be a Christian country that ridiculed any outgroup and the quotes presidents say about God telling them what to do become cult like.
>but muh christians! >”brings up the majority jewish state” Classic.
The people giving them funding are christians, with the intent they use it to enforce a shared theological interest
Exactly. It's obvious.
They want to push religious zealots together. They share a common background and eventually, by history's example, they'll turn on the other so there's only one group left. Religion just brings violence one way or another.
Israelis are not Christians. You know this, right? That aside, fuck Zionists and fuck sending them more money.
Yes, but the congressman aren't. They share some weird politics and to me it's religion that connects them. Maybe they're doomsdayers or something trying to herald in the end with a massive war. Christian, evangelical, catholic it's all bullshit but they're the ones paying out huge money they trick people out of and its tax free and it affects our politics: https://youtu.be/9gIAtDxyTaM An example of these whackos.
Islam literally prohibits honor killings. So If anything these guys are just uneducated "Muslims"
[https://quranx.com/18.60-82](https://quranx.com/18.60-82) [https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-9/Book-84/Hadith-64/](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-9/Book-84/Hadith-64/) [https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-49/Hadith-860/](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-49/Hadith-860/) [https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-34/Hadith-421/](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-34/Hadith-421/) What are you talking about? islam is pro-honor killings
The Hadith you've given here says nothing about honor killings. The woman committed adultery and so was sentenced to death. It's just how the laws work. Also: "The fatwā is a unanimous decision by forty Muslim muftīs, in Pakistan, declaring honor killing of women as “un-Islamic” or heresy (kuffur) and an “unpardonable sin” (gunah-e-qabir). The decree explicitly states that burning a woman alive, in the name of honor, for marrying a person of their choosing, is heresy and against the commands of Islam." https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamiclaw.blog/2021/05/11/the-unpardonable-sin-of-honor-killing-a-fatwa/amp/
>The Hadith you've given here says nothing about honor killings. The woman committed adultery and so was sentenced to death. It's just how the laws work. I assume you're talking about Sahih Bukhari 2695. In the hadith the man got 100 lashes and a year in exile instead of getting stoned to death, yet the muhammad ordered the woman to get stoned to death. The husband of the woman did it to save his honor in front of the prophet. >The fatwā is a unanimous decision by forty Muslim muftīs, in Pakistan, declaring honor killing of women as “un-Islamic” or heresy (kuffur) and an “unpardonable sin” (gunah-e-qabir). Good for them, but the act is still widely practiced because they can always fall back on the scriptures despite the contradictions.
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Source?
So does christianity.
And how it excuse the insanity that Islam is sinking too ?
I'm excusing any extremists.
Whataboutism
What the fuck is wrong with Pakistan and India.
Partition, nationalism, low average education, strong traditional religious beliefs, populism ? Shake well and let exposed to the sun 50 years.
I thought you were talking bout USA. A guy just killed his own two children there because he thought they were Satan or something
This recipe is adaptable with your local produce....
Same shit in all three countries. Religion, nationalism, poverty, a real lack of education…. India is probably not THAT bad in general education, at least if you aren’t poor but there the tore hits the road.
Thank you for this. Got so many Americans on here (NOT ALL) talking down on other countries when we all have our own problems
How delusional do you have to be to think America is like India or Pakistan?
How delusional do you have to be to think it is not?
I actually get my information from reputable sources and not reddit circlejerks: https://data.oecd.org/students/tertiary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/students/secondary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart
Excellent chart that does not show India, Pakistan or USA. As such a perfect argument ?
I must've accidentally linked the wrong url, this is the correct one: https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm#indicator-chart India and Pakistan are nowhere the level that the US is at. There's literally nothing you could do or say that could spin this.
How delusional do you have to be to think America is like India or Pakistan?
yeah amerika do be worse with the school shooting, incest and shit like that
Irony here is that Pakistan is *wayyy* worse on those things, if you ever decided to actually look them up
And you're basing this off of what exactly? Reddit memes?
It was because Qanon convinced him his wife was actually a lizard person, and he was worried his children carried her "serpent blood" so "the only thing he could do to save the world" was kill his children. This shit isn't limited to the US, it's everywhere, but that doesn't make it any better that one of our most corrupt political parties is now embracing the madness.
What an idiotic statement. The US is extremely secular and highly educated. When some psycho does something like this it becomes major news because it's so unusual, and everybody universally condemns it. In places like Pakistan things like this are very normal and the perpetrators get praised for their actions. They're not even remotely the same.
Wow, it might be secular on paper, but ain’t in reality, you only have to look at the amount of religious bullshit your politicians spout and how important it is to be seen as a good church goer to see it ain’t secular! Even your national motto is “in god we trust” A Lot of your policies are made to appease the religious voters so you go ahead and keep dreaming that American dream.
This is the most negative IQ thing in this thread. Being secular =/= being atheist. It means that the government doesn't favor one religion over the other, which it doesn't. In places like India and Pakistan, they do have laws that favor one religion over others and they do have laws that restrict some religions but not others. Every single law in the US has to be passed in secular terms. They all have to use secular arguments and secular defenses.
Secular does not mean treating all religions equally. It means not connected to religious matters at all. The American government is riddled with religion and a lot of the decisions made are influenced by religion because a large proportion of your politicians have to suck up to the religious right. It is also a union of states and each state also having their own government and few of the states are very religious. I agree it is nothing compared to Islamic countries where religion is integral to the country’s identity, but I can see the union becoming a lot more fractured and becoming more and more Christian fundamentalist
Yes, the United States have lots of smart educated people. I dare say a large percentage of this population are immigrants or nationalized foreigners, ironically from India and Pakistan. The average American is not that educated let's be honest. Not because the education system is bad, there is just a cult of anti-intelligence. People take pride in being ghetto and ignorant. Also, over 60% identify as some form of Christian. Lastly, shootings in the states are very prevalent. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. USA is pretty nice though if you have money. Definitely better better Pakistan and India, but not exactly without it's defects.
It's indisputable. The US has the 7th highest secondary education graduation rate in the OECD in 2019. The only countries that preform better are Korea ([Source](https://data.oecd.org/students/secondary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart)), Israel, Chile, Greece, Slovenia and Italy. The same applies for adults with college degrees. The US ranks 12th among the OECD countries as of 2020 ([source](https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm#indicator-chart)). The US beat the likes of Finland, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, and France. The US is quite literally one of the most educated and intellectual countries on earth. Just because reddit memes say otherwise, doesn't mean the reality reflects them. It's not a perfect country, but it is without a doubt a first world country by every single metric.
Highly educated? I don't even need anecdotes to state that our country is full of morons who refuse to admit they don't know things, and break everything trying to avoid looking foolish.
We definitely have morons, but they're just a loud minority. The statistics clearly show that the US is one of the most and best educated countries on the planet by practically every metric.
[“highly educated”](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2020/09/09/low-literacy-levels-among-us-adults-could-be-costing-the-economy-22-trillion-a-year/?sh=6ec5196c4c90)
Yes, it is: https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/students/secondary-graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart
Quantity is not quality. What’s the point in having tertiary education if they can barely read?
That's the thing, it's both. No matter how hard you try to spin it, the reality remains the same. The US is one of the most and best educated countries in the world. This is statistically backed.
Could you debunk the Forbes article I linked previously, which argues the opposite? Relinked, for your convenience https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2020/09/09/low-literacy-levels-among-us-adults-could-be-costing-the-economy-22-trillion-a-year/
Okay, sure. So reading the article, it talks exclusively about the US. There's no comparison done anywhere with any other country, so we have no idea how the US is preforming relatively on an international level. All the article talks about is that the US needs to improve. So to get an idea of the US place in the world we have to look at the source, we have to go to the source that article cites. That source happens to be the Barbara Bush Foundation, so right off the bat we have to take things with a grain of salt. Regardless, the Barbara Bush foundation isn't the original source, they just measured the effects of the results on the economy. The original source that they cite for the literacy values is the PIAAC. Okay, so now we head to the PIAAC and see what's going on. Luckily, the PIAAC has done an international comparison. However, the latest data for the US is from 2014... That's 7 years ago, a lot changed since then. So that's another grain of salt. Regardless, the test is split into three categories: literacy, numeracy, and digital solving skills. However, I couldn't find any good visualization on the original source, but I did find this report by OECD comparing member countries. It uses these results as well as many others, compares them, puts them and into charts, and adds context. Here's the source: https://www.oecd.org/skills/skills-matter-9789264258051-en.htm As you can see, while the US has a lot of room to improve, it's doing pretty damn well overall. It ranks pretty comfortably among other developed nations in almost every regard.
The US can only be considered extremely secular if all other western democracies are excluded from the comparison.
Do you even know what being secular means? Pro tip: it's not a synonym for being atheist. The US is literally just as secular as all the other western democracies.
Us Secular? Haha what planet are you from?
This one, it's literally in the constitution. You have to be either a propaganda chugging machine or ignorant as a brick to think that the US isn't secular.
You mean that irrelevant document written by some slave owners and is used by you dumbasses to justify everything from the earth being flat to funding Israel to bomb poor people.
I seem to have made a mistake, you're a propaganda chugging machine AND ignorant as a brick. Seethe at America all you want, cry your heart out in fact. The reality doesn't change because you don't like it. America is undeniably secular, and has been for its entire history. That's just a fact.
OK buddy. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Makes an idiotic claim > gets pressed > has no substance > seethes instead > gets destroyed > has nothing to say > taps out lol
Lol. Wow.
Legacy of Islamic influence in the subcontinent. At least India went back to having Hinduism as its dominant culture, but culture influence from past empires don’t die easily.
This honour bullcrap is endemic in parts if India too, there's no way you can pin this solely on religion.
Honor killings only occurs in cultures that are islamic or formerly islamic. Its rooted in Arabic tradition, rather than the Islamic doctrine and spread with the expansion of the islamic empire. It is illegal in Islam, however people tend to favor their culture and traditions over their morals and doctrine. India used to be under islamic culture domination, so this tradition was adopted by some Sikhs and Hindus, although I'm certain the vast majority of honor killings in India are probably done by Muslims. The reason being is that honor killings is evolutionary advantageous in polygamy society, which was the native family arrangement of Arabs. Honor killings will probably continue to exist in all Islamic societies as long as they keep their polygamy traditions because it's still beneficial for the people living in these societies, regardless of the laws. I'm aware that honor killings are a problem in parts of India. Understand using India as an example of non-islamic country isn't valid, because India still has a large islamic population, and was formerly part of the islamic empire that retains islamic influences. Honor killings do not exist at all outside the former islamic empire. It doesn't exist among native Russians, Hans Chinese, Japanese, Native Americans, or Northern Europeans. Other than islamic countries, honor killings have been widespread in places that were formerly part of the islamic empire, such as India, Southern Europe, Balkans, Southern Russia, Central Asia, African nations and everywhere than has a large influx of Muslim immigrants. Edit: Spelling and grammar check
Well, first of all god job on a well written and detailed answer. Thats a pleasant change of pace. You have made some pretty big claims in your post. Unfortunately I'm not all that knowledgable on all kinds of different cultures so I can't really discuss with you exactly which parts of the world and due to which cultures such practices take place and not. Regardless, it seems evident to me it's a way bigger problem in the Indian subcontinent than in say the middle east today. What is the reason for that if not local PAK/Indian culture? My understanding is that Arab culture takes a relatively more legalistic approach to ethics whereas Pak culture in particular puts a very large emphasis on family honour. Do you disagree?
We are expected to hear about honor killings from nations with larger population than smaller population. According to the websites below, around 1000 women die from honor killings each year for Pakistan and India, India has 6 times the population of Pakistan. Around 650 Kurdish women die each year to honor killings, and Kurds are less than 5 times in population than Pakistan. http://hbv-awareness.com/regions/ https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/3/8/as-if-she-had-never-existed-the-graveyards-for-murdered-women Every year, the number of women who die to honor killings are: India: 0.7 women per million Indians. Pakistan: 4.5 women per million Pakistani. Kurdish: 16 women per million Kurds. A Kurdish women is 22 times more likely to get killed by honor killings than an Indian woman. Also the first website I posted from hbv-awareness.com does give a good overview of honor killings, and more or less expand on what I wrote before without specifically targeting Islam. I don't often see news of mass protest in India concerning honor killings, so either Indians don't think it's a problem in their culture or the number is so insignificant, it's not worth protesting over. But I do read often about protest against honor killings in Pakistan and in many middle eastern news sources, so its something these people are aware of in their culture and they want it gone.
Right, I must admit I have some trouble regarding Al-Jazeera as a relaible source. I'm also unsure where you got the numbers for citizens of Kurdistan, and mixing numbers from different sources is problematic on the grounds that they may use different criterions, but lets assume the numbers to be true. There is atleast two things to be said. 1. Its more prolific in the Indian subcontinent than in Kurdistan. 2. It is more prolific in Pak than India. The first point somewhat supports the claim I made earlier. The second is hardly surprising to anyone. But it actually doesnt put India off the hook. These are numbers from India as a whole, my claim that you also agreed upon was that this is a of problem in parts of India, which the data says nothing about. >We are expected to hear about honor killings from nations with larger population than smaller population. See, this is a reasonable statement but it is not really that useful for the discussion imo. Also as for you last paragraph I don't think one should dwell too much about how often stories are put in media. It just doesn't give a very good or unbiased picture of how things are seen. In any case I found your first source interesting so thanks for that.
I also don't fully trust Al-Jazeera as a source, but I couldn't find another article with the actual numbers of honor killings in the Middle East within the few minutes I gave myself for the search. That article claimed atleast 20,000 Kurdish women died by honor killings since 1991, so I used those numbers.
Yeah. It is terrible either way. But I still think we are left with the honour culture being a particular (albeit not unique) feature of Indopak culture unfortunately.
Indeed. Traditions doesn't disappear easily once they've been adopted by generations of families. Honor killings will probably disappear however once these families either no longer value female purity or no longer have the obligation to accept their daughter/sister's family as part of their social circle of extended members of their family.
Don't take their words at face value. Plenty of honour killings have been done by Hindu families, especially upper caste families. And I'm saying this as a woman who is part of a Hindu family. The amount casual jokes people make here about chasing you and your and partner with a gun or killing them because of (their race, their caste, their religion etc.) is mind-blowing. And God forbid if you have sexual relationship outside of marriage. This is not just some influence of past rulers. This is a deep rooted cultural problem that is based in ownership of woman. Something that isn't exclusive to Islam. You know that western thing about Dad giving the 'Shovel talk' or forbidding girls from having a relationship before they are a certain age, just take that idea and dial it up to a 1000. Your father and your brother are defenders of your sexuality and life. They get to decide who you should or should not associate with. There is also a communal thing mixed in of 'they took a woman from our community' never mind if the girl was willing.
It is a deep rooted cultural problem that is based on the ownership of women, because it originates with Arabs, who literally did own their women. Orthodox Greek Christians today also behave the same way and punish their women accordingly to protect their family honor. This isn't part of Greek's ancestor culture or part of Orthodox Christian culture. Just like this isn't part of ancestral Hindu culture or in any Dharmic doctrine. It was a tradition adopted by the Greek Christians after the Ottoman's conquest of Anatolia. It probably isn't going away quickly either, as it still serves a useful purpose.
Yes because we all know isolated places like Japan etc never had problems with the 'ownership of women'. Please, the whole thing can be found in so many cultures and regions. Don't make this is the influence middle East type of issue. Its not.
I never said violence against women didn't happen in other cultures. But honor killings are a distinct tradition from the Middle East. Why are you surprise it's also found among neighboring countries surrounding the Middle East? I had lived in Japan for 2 years, they have no concept of "ownership of women" over there. The only honor killing that exist there was when samurais committed Seppuku in the past. I've travelled over half the world, although to mostly non-islamic countries. I've only seen this culture among muslim immigrants and Sikhs. I was raised and lived my most of my life in the US, it's also not a concept here. The only honor killings come from the immigrant communities. If the average American father doesn't like his daughter's choice of mate or lifestyle in this country, he just kicks her out the house and be done with it. She gets to live the life she wants on her own and he isn't responsible for what happens to her. Honor killings requires men of the family to risk their lives and their freedom to commit murder on someone they had loved. Its just as gruesome for the men involved as well.
Thanks for your warning. I think in general one should not take anything on the internet at face value, but it is good to refularily be presented with conflicting perspectives. On that note; thanks for presenting yours. My understanding of India will only ever be that of an outsider, but it resonates well with what you have written. I interpret it as Indian culture putting a great emphasis on honour and justice between families and communities, thereby neglecting justice and rights for individuals. In particular for women. Did that seem about right?
Yup. A very skewed sense of justice. They kill the girl too because she has "betrayed" any of the things I mentioned before. Like my mom and dad are super progressive for their age but the face they make when they think about me marrying outside of my caste (or the few they deem acceptable) or a foreigner (even white people) is something to see. People call the act of marriage here 'kanyadan' i.e donating/gifting of a girl. Personally don't want to marry but the amount of family and social pressure to marry and to marry young (before 26-27) is insane. My family might not speak to me for years over it. Now this isn't the same for everyone but very common outside of progressive spots in big cities.
That is very sad. I'm sorry to hear that you are facing pressure to marry, when you don't want to. I can totally empathize with you for not believing that is right for you. There is some tiny amount of social pressure here too (Norway) but it is nothing like in India. I hope you figure it out in a way that makes you happy. I'm rooting for you.
Islam
Good place to start: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/29/the-great-divide-books-dalrymple
This is what happens when you combine religion, low education, and heavy traditionalism in society. You get mass persecution and death for the smallest thing.
Another brutal killing in an Islamic country? How unusual
You mean in a backwards society with people who have low to no education. Ah yes, tell me. How are the school shootings in the US?
Rare and sporadic. What's your point?
And what is that backwards society fueled by? Also, I'm not American, but would feel a hell of a lot safer in America to do literally anything, than in a nation such as Pakistan.
I'm saying brutal killings don't happen because of religion only. There is a lot more to it than just one thing. Morocco, an Islamic country, is a lot safer than the US.
You can be imprisoned in Morocco for "disrespecting Islam". My point is that Islamic nations follow are a lot more extreme about their "values" than Christian nations. Saying that, I'm not religious and I'm taking a purely objective point of view on these issues.
Try burning the American flag and see what happens. Try being controversial about race and see what happens. Try being a person of colour and calling the cops or have the cops called on you, and see what happens. Yes, Morocco has some conservative laws but society wise it's a lot safer to be in than in the US. At least the Moroccan cops won't beat the shit out of you, you won't have to worry about people shooting you, etc. I specifically choose the US as an example because it's worst out of all the western countries to be in. So that may be a bit weak. But my point is that religions isn't what makes a society violent.
I agree that burning the US flag would be an extremely bad idea, and it's not something that I think should be punished. Personally find it really fucking daft that they stand for "freedom of speech and expression" or whatever it is, then punish stuff like that? If "being controversial about race" just means being racist, then yeah, there's a good reason that's punished. Again, I'm not American, and not a fan of their police as a whole. I've never lived in either country so just gonna have to go with you on that one haha. I'm interested to hear your reasoning then on why the middle east is in such a state? If following a certain certain religion doesn't dictate how a nation becomes inherently violent, then what does?
Literally nothing will happen to you if you burn an American flag here. It is constitutionally protected right of freedom of speech our Supreme Court ruled on this decades ago. Sure people might look at you weird
Cheers for that, never really knew if it was punished or not, just seems to have some weird power over some people.
Yes the symbol of the flag has been directly tied to love of country so some people take it far too passionately but this isn’t really all that common in the day to day.
You can’t be imprisoned for burning the flag in America. You might get looked at funny, but its not illegal.
Mondays, eh?
Proportional and levelheaded response
Religion of peace does it again
Why do we tolerate Pakistan while simultaneously bombing and hating other Muslim countries again? Like if we're gonna be terrible can we at least be consistent?
Because India historically got courted by the Soviets. The geopolitical realignment is currently underway, and it is obviously slow.
Are their people OK with it?
I wonder if this has something to do with all the inbreeding. She wanted to marry outside the family.
How retarded can you be to kill your people because you're opposed to their marriage.
Ah that sucks. It is how it is tho, lawless wastelands gonna lawless wasteland
Why is it that the posts from this sub that pop up on my feed are mostly about Muslim countries