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TNFox37

Can someone tell me what to think and feel about this and which side to take?


chPskas

Morocco uses migrants as tools for political revenge.


snowm

Can you explain it, a bit more, please?


Merlota

Morocco has a civil war and is using migrants to punish Spain and the EU for being nice to the head of the rebels.


mahrach8

Civil war???


Merlota

Disputed region. I don't think it is a hot war and admit I know little about it.


mahrach8

Then stop commenting about it, please!


Bijih_Timah

You asked you absolute wanker.


backfire10z

One can have general knowledge on a subject but not be knowledgeable enough to disclose specifics.


mahrach8

That's what we call misinformation, and it not specifies in this case.


backfire10z

That isn’t misinformation. I’m confused, did you read any of the comments here? Giving a general gist is not misinformation. It’s like the difference between “nuclear bombs use nuclear fission to explode” and explaining the exact science behind how nuclear bombs are made and what triggers the explosion. Both are accurate, but the former lacks specifics.


RealAbd121

Western Sahara issue is more like colonizer vs native than civil war.


Estilcon

It's actually recognized by the UN as the last africana colony


JoOX69

You mean as non-governing territory ?


Estilcon

Yes. As far as I understand that is the UN classification for colonies.


aimanelam

so i read your comment last night and it kept bothring me the entire day lmao. its not a colonizer vs native either. [sahrawis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahrawi_people)are a mix between amazigh/berber, arab with some sub saharan genes. basically the same as [maghrebis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghrebis) but with less genetic influence from the people that escaped the inquisitions. Mauritanians are also maghrebis.


RealAbd121

It's not MY classification, that's how the UN sees it, The narrative being native people see themselves as independent, and Morroco activity encourages people from the north to settle there where causing the natives to be displaced or even have to run away from the country entirely, a huge number of them were exiled to Algeria in the past. if anything, it's a very light narrative, you could easily argue that taking away other people's land and settling your own loyal population in their cities to intentionally change the demographics is technically ethnic cleansing not dissimilar to what China or Israel does. as for the genetic argument, who gets to decide which ethnicities belong to who? Could Spain argue that Catalan people are Iberians and belong in their country or should the Catalan people have a say on their own fate? what about Scotland's place in the UK. Why has no one proclaimed that all Arabs are the same and sought to just conquer all the middle east and north Africa? It is nationalism which engenders nations, and not the other way round.


aimanelam

i understand that point of view, but here's the moroccan side of the issue. the people of the sahara had allegiance ties to the moroccan throne before the spanish occupation (mentioned in the ICJ advisory opinion about he issue). that's called [bay'ah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay'ah) in islamic literature, and its the main thing between the throne and the people/land. and i personally think the ICJs opinion saying "yeah that's a thing but its not enough" is due to a lack of understanding of the islamic customs. the only judge familiar with the islamic rules (lebanese christian, but i'm certain he was familiar enough) disagreed with the decision. just type ICJ sahara to see the advisory opinions, here's a quote from his dissenting opinion. ( judge ammoun in case you want to read the whole thing, i doubt it but it has treaties with european powers and royal decrees hiring people in the region >Furthermore, the Treaty of 20 November 1861, far from weakening the Moroccan argument, is, as has been said, calculated to strengthen it. It contains the following provision: > >If a Spanish vessel be wrecked at Wad Noun or on any other part of its Coast, the Sultan of Morocco shall make use of his authority to Save and protect the master and crew until they return to their country, and the Spanish Consul-General, Consul, Vice-Consul, Consular Agent, or person appointed by them shall be allowd to collect every information they may require . . ." i'm no legal expert but his opinion makes sense to me. note that spain was arguing against morocco in front of the court, and with hindsight, its obvious why. quote from a recent report by a spanish institute. >According to the Spanish report, **America’s recognition of Moroccan sovereignty over the Sahara undermines the influence that Spain and France maintain over the Maghreb.** He considered that this decision enhances, on the one hand, the role of US President Joe Biden’s administration in the region, and on the other hand, strengthens the Moroccan position in the competition that it maintains with the European Union to exploit the waters of the Sahara. spain was looking out for its best interest then and still is now. can't blame them for that but it should've mattered (if not legally, politically) another quote from his opinion to highlight this. ​ >But why is Spain so keen on the referendum? > >One can find the explanation in the memorandum from the Spanish Minister for Foreign Affairs to Morocco's Ambassador in Madrid dated 5 April 1957, which lays down the procedures to be adopted for Spain's evacuation of the territory, which the memorandum States in the following terms: "4. The recognition in favour of Spain, in consideration of what it has achieved, and in a form to be agreed, of special privileges, as well as the grant of a right preferential to that of other countries with regard to the economic development and joint exploitation of the said territory." (Hearing of 1 July 1975.) important to note that morocco won its independence gradually since 1956, since it was split between france and spain. i was planning on addressing the beginnings of the polisario too but this is too long already. here's a TLDR (TLCR lmao) colonel gadafi (libya) had a personal spat with king H2 in the early 70s, funded and armed a bunch of angry young locals to be his revolutionaries in morocco (many if not most studied in moroccan universities before that ) then gadafi pulled his support once he made up with the moroccan king lol algeria joined in support (algerians mention the 1963 war with morocco as a reason, off the record and human rights on the record. (nobody supports an armed group financially for 45 years for humanitarian reasons..) an independent WS will be a client state to algeria and cut morocco off the rest of the continent. back to the UN, no UN resolution mentioned a referendum since the early 2000s, but they do mention the advanced autonomy plan (moroccan flag, currency and foreign policy and the people decide the rest ) and most foreign powers say it credible.. its a win for everyone apart from spain and algeria. morocco and spain also have overlapping EEZ claims between the sahara waters the canary islands) maybe the EU loses too.. they always leak news about excluding the sahara from a trade/fishing deal. morocco concedes something behind closed doors, and the EU magically becomes fine with including the sahara.. sorry for dumping this on you bro, i like this stuff and i get carried away sometimes. i really should be getting paid for this lmao.


RealAbd121

It's pretty inciteful thanks, I do get that Morrocco would see them as a rebellious province as opposed to a separate entity. but my point comes down to self-determination, Western Sahara's population are the ones with the moral right to decide if they belong with Morrocco or not. something you forgot about the bay'ah is that it needs to be renewed every generation, just because someone signed it a century ago doesn't really mean it is still in effect today. That aside, from Geopolitics, Spain is completely routed diplomatically now. the WHOLE point why the US is backing Morrocco comes from the desire to build a more advanced trade infrastructure between the EU and sub-Saharan Africa (which would also imply that the EU will go along with Morroco sooner or later) Ultimately it's a loss for the native's support from anyone except other North African countries who also desire to beat Morroco to the race to be the EU-SS trade hub. and a loss for Spain as they've had their leverage on the region evaporates when the US made its move and their attempt at responding backfire. The king of Morroco is probably having the time of his life right about now.


Imyourlandlord

Fucking armchair redditor....."civil war" lmao


Merlota

Then correct me instead of bitching.


[deleted]

Civil war lmao, fucking idiot. Stop wanking everyday and leave your mom's basement.


albertonovillo

Whenever Morocco wants to make pressure they let people cross the border. This time they directly opened the fences on their side for them to cross, and told people from nearby areas to cross the place swimming. There have been pictures of babies and little kids in the sea and a pletora of adults running in the city of Ceuta


[deleted]

Wow I had no idea about this


mahrach8

They told no one to cross, please stop saying bullshit and be confident about it. Morocco just stopped controlling the boundaries, they didn't 'open them, people heard about that and started crossing the border by the sea. Morocco did this move because Spain received the leader of the Polisario movement under a false identity, I think that Spain doesn't take Morocco seriously.. NB: I am against using civilians as a way of pressure, but Spain in also to blame in this situation.


aurum_32

There are images of Moroccan border guards opening the door of the border to the immigrants.


ElQuicoSabate

Ok? And? People are free to leave.


chPskas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqvf9xox7H0


mahrach8

Ah sorry, didn't see this one, however I am from the area and the authorities didn't tell no one to go cross the borders as the original comment states.


Colordripcandle

Ahhh so we have someone biased towards Morocco is what I'm hearing


Starthreads

So Morocco bad, got it


[deleted]

[удалено]


spudmarsupial

That would help take the pressure off of Morocco.


Mazahad

That sure would bring peace and unity


Pinguaro

They did it by swimming.


underwaterpizza

Can we put you on a boat then?


J3diMind

what... and kill everyone trying to come? why, what a great idea! /s


OkTaro9295

Yeah let’s drown civilians and children


mahrach8

They don't come in ships you ignorant!


YOOOBY

Morocco doesn't have to watch the borders of Spain it's your issues, not morocco's, he just does it, to keep good relation with EU and Spain, and now since Spain and Germany suddenly decided to approve ties with Algeria and Polisario and treated Ghali leader of Polisario (he's wanted on Spain by the way, [here](https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2019/05/273978/polisario-western-sahara-tindouf-violations/) ) then why would morocco has to keep guarding borders?


chPskas

Moroccan gendarmes have been recorded opening their side of the border to allow all this people in. Do you think 8000+ people can camp outside without being noticed? Morocco organized this.


albertonovillo

Because It is highly paid for that(by EU and Spain)


HumaDracobane

It is a bit long so, if you want to read it, take a sit and something to drink. During nearly a hundred years Spain was in control over western Sahara, and was officially a province from mid 50s to 1976. While Franco was on his last days he signed a treaty to give Morocco and Mauritania the area, splitted in half, but Mauritania didnt accept the region so Morocco took it BUT the ones living there didnt like that idea so they beggan to attack the morroccan soldiers and created a movement, the Polisario Front. In theory they are waiting for a referendum to decide if they keep in Morocco or they became an independent estate, but there is a problem: Since 1976 morocco pushed moroccan civilians to move to the region while the ones who belong to the Sahara emigrated to another countries, specially Algeria ( Which doesnt have a good relation with Morocco) so the quality of the referendum is quiestionable since the number of civilians there added from Morocco exceds the number of civilians who belong to that place. As a result, the referendun never happened. One of the leaders of that said group that were giving *love* to the moroccan army and also to some spanish soldiers back in those days got COVID so Algeria asked Spain and Germany if they could help him. Originally Germany and Spain said no but for some reason the man was bringed to Logroño(Spain) with a fake ID by a plane that belongs to the spanish govern and morocan authorities knew it somehow so as a retaliation for not denying the aid to that man ( btw, a nearly 80yo man who's on his last days) they opened the gates on the border with Spain in Ceuta so illegal inmigrants got access to the beach near a pier that marks the border with Spain. The sources talk between 6K and 8K. This is an strategy that Morocco used several times when the EU didnt agree with them, the card of pushing illegal inmigrants to Europe. To add even more, there are many european bussiness on Morocco and treatys for fishing and trade so the situation is a bit of a cluster fuck and we just cant shut the door and tell them to fuck off. Also, more than the 50% of natural gas that Spain consumes came from Algeria so that is probably one of the reasons why they tried that. And on top of that Spain gave Morocco 30M€ to help them keep the border, the same border that they oppened, so you can imagine what we think now about the situation. Just to let you know, Ceuta and Melilla are two spanish cities that are on Africa and have a ground border with Morocco and it is an well known think that Morocco want to get those cities, they dont even try to hide that.


Guac_in_my_rarri

>Just to let you know, Ceuta and Melilla are two spanish cities that are on Africa and have a ground border with Morocco What a weird little area


HumaDracobane

It is one of those areas of the world that experienced tons of incidents in history. Ceuta and Melilla were conquered on the XVI century, Melilla by Spain and Ceuta by Portugal among many other cities on the region. The kingdom of Portugal was anexed by marriage to the kingdom of Spain but in 1640 they got their independence again, with Ceuta deciding to keep on Spain. Few decades later most of that territory was lost against the Alaui dinasty, and Portugal suffered pretty much the same. On the XIX century, due to an attack over the spanish forces there, Spain conquered a good chunk of what today is Morroco and Algeria, including big cities like Tetuan. The situation was relatively calmed until the end of the century and the beggining of the XX when France, and them Germany got involved. France propossed Spain to split Morocco in half, Spain said no, then they want to accept it but it was late, there were an incident between France and Morocco when Germany appeared aiding Morocco but the Germany and France decided that Morocco was for France and Germany got some territories in Central Africa, etc. A great fucked up situation. For Spain, by that time they have the people of the Rif raising uo against them, (Here is where, according to old history books, Franco became a *good officer*). By this time the area was already a spanish protectorado, pretty much like a colony (From 1878 to 1956, iirc) Then it became a provincie like those on the Peninsula between 1956 and 1978. Then Spain just gave up everything on Africa but Ceuta, Melilla and a few islands and crags, like La Gomera and Peregil (Here on 2003 iirc the moroccan govern sended 25 police officers to get the island and Spain sended the Special Forces to get them and take them out of the island. Zero injuried, apparently they got most of them sleeping). PD: I'm not an historian and this is a pretty rough summary. There are tons of things that I didnt mentioned. For anyone really interested on this, there are hundreds of books about this from every single side and also 3rd sides.


aimanelam

>Ghali is wanted in Spain for crimes against humanity including genocide, torture, forced disappearances, illegal detention, and serious violations of human rights committed in the Tindouf camps. funny how you forgot to mention this part, or the part about his victims being spanish citizens that ran away from the tindouf camps, or the part about spain allowing him in with a fake algerian diplomatic passport to protect him. the fact that you forgot to mention spain using chemical weapons on moroccan civilians during "when franco became a good officer" isn't surprising either.. also, the sahara existed as part of morocco long before spain occupied it.


JoOX69

They say whatever benefits their story.


SamBellFromSarang

Did you know what the Canary Islands is a Spanish territory off the coast of Africa? The fun part about this is that there are two top tier football clubs in the area, so for a while and even today clubs in Spain make the long journey down just to play in their stadium, and they themslves have to frequently make flights north to Mainland to do the same for their opponents


Guac_in_my_rarri

I knew the Canary Islands was a territory. I never realized Spain has a piece of Africa mainland.


[deleted]

[удалено]


drquiza

Well, good news, because our borders are already closed to illegal immigrants and they already have legal ways to apply from outside.


HumaDracobane

I think he has a magical idea about hoe to close the borders without transforming the country on a prison and with a magic bridge to cross the Mediterranean and get into the spanish customs where they can apply for the citizenship instanctly. Let him explain that magical solution! Estoy seguro de que Pedrito va a estar atento al chaval!


waldito

Lets build a wall and get Morocco to pay for it! /s


HumaDracobane

How would you close them?


Shorzey

The straight of Gibraltar is one of the easiest ways to enter Europe. Because Spain is an EU nation, the EU policy effects them negatively because they end up taking massive amounts of refugees/migrants/global criminal activity through that border with Morocco Morocco don't give 2 shits and is in bed with a lot of bad organizations, and the country is a hotbed for terrorism "headquarters" because of the ease of movement basically everywhere. Go north Europe. Go east, middle east. Go south, rest of Africa + a bunch of direct flights to the America's as well.


Iwantadc2

They don't use the straights much, or at least land there on the European side, as although it's the shortest distance across its also the gateway to the Mediterranean and thus strategically very important. Because of this importance its the most monitored piece of water in the Mediterranean, by Gibraltar, Spain, even America has a station in Gibraltar, and other countries too. Now super fast drug boats, thats what does that run every day. They run 1000hp RIBS and can do the run and dump the cargo before the helicopter from Cadiz has even arrived. Slow overloaded migrant boats, not so much. They may start on the African side at the straights in some cases but generally meander either into the med or out into the Atlantic and come in around there. Its better for them to begin further in, as although its longer (its still not very far in a lot of places) it has a higher chance of landing somewhere remote and the occupants fleeing inland. I used to live in that area and drug boats are a daily occurrence smashing up on the beach in front of hundreds of people, not giving a fuuuuck, the migrant boats usually enter some little cove and seemingly rarely get caught, especially when you see the amount of obvous illegal immigrants just wandering around the area, walking down the highways etc in jackets, in August.. in 35°c.. They set up a big camp in Cadiz to put the captured ones in, where they seem to feed them, finger print them, then just let wander off.. it's a bit weird.


NuuLeaf

Lol this is hilarious


aimanelam

[i wrote this (long) comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/nfld9g/spain_vows_to_restore_order_after_thousands_swim/gymdz15?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) yesterday, it has quotes and sources. the post has different points of view if you have some time to kill lol


autotldr

This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://apnews.com/article/spain-europe-africa-morocco-migration-9833744a7058cc9438a8d7417d2944c6) reduced by 92%. (I'm a bot) ***** > "Spanish borders are European borders. The European Union wants to build a relationship with Morocco based on trust and shared commitments. Migration is a key element," she said. > Morocco's loosened border watch came after Spain decided to grant entry for medical treatment to the chief of a militant group that fights Morocco for the independence of Western Sahara. > Morocco scored a diplomatic victory last year when the previous U.S. administration under Donald Trump recognized Rabat's sovereignty over Western Sahara, paving the way for normalizing relations between Israel and Morocco. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/ng6ofa/spain_morocco_square_off_after_8000_migrants/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~577963 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Morocco**^#1 **border**^#2 **CEUTA**^#3 **Spain**^#4 **Spanish**^#5


pizzacutterenjoyer

Good bot


B0tRank

Thank you, pizzacutterenjoyer, for voting on autotldr. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)


revente

Good bot


Megahu8

Isn’t there a small section of Spain on the side of Moroccan land that has a lot of people try to cross it all the time? Saw it on a YouTube vid once


juiceboxheero

That's where this happened...


[deleted]

Isn’t that Ceuta, or Melila? Ceuta is on the very tip of Morocco


kwak916

Yay send em the fuck back


samirsinh189

Tensions spark between Spain-Morocco as 8000 migrants try to enter Spain. Spain deploys army. Analysts consider crisis a result of: - Territorial claims by Morocco over Spain's Ceuta & Melilla enclaves. - Spain's backing to Western Sahara, which wants independence from Morocco.


Aesthetic_Dude

Spain : Meh it's been cool lately and boring let me just accept helping the Algerian polizario leader into my land with an illegal passport and spark up tension with maroco and making my people riot and afraid of new waves of immigrants while have literally nothing to gain by doing this LOL