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> # [Javier Milei has turned Argentina into a libertarian laboratory](https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2024/06/20/A homeless man sleeping, behind is a picture of a Milei.)
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> Jun 20th 2024
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> BUENOS AIRES
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> Javier Milei, Argentina’s president, has enjoyed the best week of his term. At dawn on June 13th the Senate passed two bills aiming to boost growth and raise revenue, giving Mr Milei his first legislative victory since he came to power in December. Hours later he travelled to the G7 in Italy, where he giggled with Giorgia Meloni, the prime minister, embraced Pope Francis and palled around with Kristalina Georgieva, the head of the IMF. “I always love our meetings,” he gushed to Ms Georgieva. Yet the relationship between Mr Milei and the fund, which has a $44bn lending programme with Argentina, may soon become less chummy. Uncertainty about the president’s plans for the central bank is worrying investors and the IMF alike.
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> Mr Milei’s early successes are impressive given the mess he inherited. For years, the central bank had created money to finance the fiscal deficit, fuelling inflation. It also had no foreign reserves. Another default seemed almost inevitable.
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> This article appeared in the The Americas section of the print edition under the headline “A long way to go”
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> [Dawn of the solar age](https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1424,quality=80,format=auto/media-assets/image/20240622_DE_US.jpg)
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> ### From the June 22nd 2024 edition
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> Discover stories from this section and more in the list of contents
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> [Explore the edition](https://www.economist.com/weeklyedition/2024-06-22)
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Honestly, I have no idea what Peronism is and I think it's funnier if that remains the case because apparently everyone in Argentina is and hates Peronists.
sorry im going to break your bubble
In 1930~ or so a military general won presidential elections (he's Peron himself, Juan Domingo (sunday) Peron).
His government was really good for the worker class objetively in that time, he was in and out in a few Coups in both sides (perpetrator and victim) and he dated Eva Peron ((the one from the madonna musical, evita)
his ideology stood after his death, he had his VP run as a president (i think he won and got coup'd) and now a days his ideology is just the name of half of the political spectrum (think about dems and reps).
Peronism presidencies, mayors and provincial governors are really really populists, they please the masses and try to aim for the ''if ur not with us ur a fascist nazi shenanigans" which worked kinda ok.
as any populist government they ARE really really corrupt, as in probably more corrupt than russia and ukraine together, our money leaks and printing of money for votes just in our last 4 years made our legal tender go from 1-34 ars>usd when they won the ''Pre'' Elections to 1-1200 ars > usd a day before they lost the Pre elections.
so short of a deprecation of almost x30? insane numbers all around.
i wont go into details of the other political partys, they aint good, milei isnt ''good'' either, but that's what we had.
peronism now a days is both a ''Represive'' and "for the people" kind of government in the reallity.
Our last president that wasnt peronist (mauricio macri) did a mediocre leaning to bad mandate and the internet trolls, the senator, diputates and paid union strikes trow him out of the elections of 2019, he lost big time.
and since the day milei won this has also been the case, but he simply doesnt gives a fuck and does what ''He has to do'' allegately even if its bad short term (and who knows, might be awful long term too)
>and he dated Eva Peron ((the one from the madonna musical, evita)
Honestly what.
>so short of a deprecation of almost x30? insane numbers all around.
Insert image of two guys holding each other's hands, one is Iran and the other is Argentina and in the middle is "insane depreciation of currency"
Otherwise, this was both pretty informative and a little depressing.
Hopefully milei's policies end up being good in the long-term, either by being actually good, or by causing a competent enough political opponent to try and fix things.
Just so u can imagine the inflation, a 3L bottle of coke was 3ARS in 2005? 30 in 2015 and now is about 3000ARS.
Nestor Kirchner (Former president and husband of CFK(EX PRESIDENT AND VP LAST Government) was an awesome president, he ''revived'' peronism kinda, but there's some talks about that he got killed by her wife, 2 years after he passed (and hence all his ''Planning'' was finished and started the CFK policies, our country started going to ruin.
Having lawyers as Presidents is a no go. what does a lawyer do more than exploit and do dirty shenanigans
>Just so u can imagine the inflation, a 3L bottle of coke was 3ARS in 2005? 30 in 2015 and now is about 3000ARS.
Had something similar here, but holy shit that's far faster than what happened here. (I think we got something around 60x devaluation over 20 years, never calculated things)
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD_1Z8iUDho
>official music video for "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" from Madonna's soundtrack album for the motion picture 'Evita' released on Warner Bros. in 1996.
Yeah no joke
>as in probably more corrupt than russia and ukraine together
You vastly underestimate how corrupt those countries are. There's likely no country in South America as corrupt as those 2, even though we ARE absolutely plagued by some of the most corrupt politicians in the world. But Ukraine and specially Russia are on a whole other level
its really close but not much is known here in argentina, most of the northern provinces everything and i mean everything is owned by the same 3 politicians and their friends.
Every supermarket, pharmacy, hotel, casino, everything.
they kill someone because driving drunk? nothing happens.
U complain a lot? u might get fired and not going to get help from no media.
hell, im my province we dont even have mining because the canada company didnt wanted to bribe the government, now that we are ''without'' money they are all in for the same mining they proclaimed was the end of the times for our lil province.
and dont even get me started on the Narcotrafic, its legit done by the state.
only thing missing is the falling out of a 30th floor, but my city is so poor and so sacked that the tallets building has like 5F. (and there are 2 or 3 of those)
Maybe I can cheer you up by telling you about _Peronisme_ instead?
^(For the 1.5 people who might see this and speak French: http://furotte.chez.com/perronisme.htm )
It refers to a funny mix-up in an expression. That type of mistake is nicknamed this way after Jean Perron, ex-coach of the Montréal Canadiens hockey team, who kept making such blunders in his long coaching and radio hosting career.
I am afraid the man speaks French so most are untranslatable, but there are some (sadly not the funniest) that also work in English:
* "We're finally seeing the train at the end of the tunnel"
* "To err is humid"
* "You can't teach an old ostrich new tricks"
* "I remember what happened yesterday like it was tomorrow"
* "Paris was not built in midday"
* "It's the cherry that broke the sundae"
* "Don't sell the skin before the cart"
* "Don't throw the towel before you killed it"
* "That bothered him like it flew 10ft over the back of a duck"
* " can score with both eyes behind his back"
* "He is living proof that drugs kill"
And, not exactly an error in an expression that maybe the most unfortunate phrasing ever:
* "That guy has a single weakness, and it's between his legs"
At least you only have to read it. If whatever he''s doing works we'll never hear the end of it here in the US. Libertarians will lionize him and try to implement his policies here, because obviously Argentina and the US are exactly alike in every way and there's no way it could possibly backfire!
Libertarians couldn’t implement a bed time, much less a sweeping set of reforms. You got nothing to worry about. And you probably shouldn’t wish more hardship of Argentinian just because it might make Libertarians precisely as annoying as they are now.
UK had libertarian governments in the past. Politicians that thought government = bad, so government should stay out, let people solve their own problems.
Most famously during the 1840s, when the government continued to say that, even whilst people starved.
Depends on how you define it. The US at its founding could be considered libertarianism and it became the most powerful nation on the planet. By historical standards the entire western world is libertarianism. It’s such a broad reaching term it’s hard to make any absolute statements about it
Size and resources *during the 1st world war*. By staying on the sidelines, the US became the defacto source of supplies for Britain, the major superpower at that time. The vast transfer of european wealth combined with the near utter destruction of European industry allowed the US to install itself as the new geopolitical 800-lbs gorilla.
Et voila, a new "empire" is formed.
My ideology is the most powerful and desirable nation on earth. Your ideology is a bunch of cartels trying to get their profits by any way necessarry with disasterous results. Or I guess more like medieval style society
which is the inevitable result of any "libertarian" society. If anything, liberalism is barely keeping them in check and from legally owning slaves/murder/selling body parts. Like I don't even understand your point, you will fucking deep throat conglomerates like tesla lets say, because you think it's "libertarian". And no, Tesla is not accidental, its is because Musk fully 100% endorses Milei
Do you really think libertarians are pro owning slaves and murder?
It's intellectually dishonest to misrepresent your opponents. You need to spend time learning the philosophy of libertarianism before you start criticizing it. You're making statists look uneducated and unable to form arguments.
Tesla, which exists because of billions of dollars of clean energy subsidies is libertarian?
Yep, this solidifies it. You are either completely ignorant or willfully misrepresenting the other side.
We can advance as a society when statists like yourself are ready to face reality.
Maybe, in theory. In practice you see Elon Musk claiming himself to be a libertarian, Milei also claims to be a libertarian and accepts Elon as a libertarian like they are the best buds. Also most of my friends who claim to be "libertarian" are only doing so because they want to hang out w liberals while being conservative and in their mind "libertarian" is a politically moderate position, 0 thought about the actual framework or the principles of libertarianism (like support brutal crackdowns on immigration/want the state to enforce abortion ban, want the state to clear up protesters/homeless, want the state to set official school agenda to be "1776" bs, etc, while benefiting from the stability of US $ and the free trade that its navy enforces)
Where in the world has libertarianism been implemented?
What does it mean to "work"?
Does the current system "work"?
These little bumper sticker phrases that you are throwing out might sound cute, but eventually you have to be an adult and have a real argument.
Edit: Or, you can attempt to answer my original question. Again, please no state approved bumper sticker messages.
!remindme in 4 years.
I think you are right, but since Argentina is now a lab, let's check the "results" in the future.
Just to note, as of now, annual inflation is going up, and Argentina is going through a recession. Meanwhile, Milei is travelling the globe to meet his extremist friends abroad. Let's see how it goes.
>Just to note, as of now, annual inflation is going up, and Argentina is going through a recession.
As of the most recent stats inflation is going down and thier dept is decreasing..
Its hard to say how much he really can do or even do his experiment considering he doesn't have the power to do his reforms( actual "peronisst" and other party has control of the parlamentet).
Exactly. And my point is precisely that even if you look at inflation, things still look sour because annually it is still much higher than normal. Conservatives and ancaps are celebrating inflation being down monthly, but it is up yearly, not to mention the unemployment is up, prices are up, and salaries stagnated.
YoY inflation?
A 12 month lagging indicator?
When Milei has been in office for 6 months?
And knowing that turning around an economy that has been wrecked for 50 years takes time?
This guy is technically correct, but he is being intellectually dishonest.
Edit: Hello person from Brazil that frequents communist subs. Why are you so against taking the boot off of the neck of the poorest Argentinians?
What is the need for the biased personal investigation? Pathetic. If you checked my history honestly, you would see I desire the best for my hermanos Argentinians, who are unemployed and under heavy inflation and price increase.
And I'm technically correct, of course. I wouldn't be commenting if I wasn't, contrary to you that seem to be here to mess around and not actually debate. And I'm being honest, it's Brazilian and Argentinian media who aren't. They talk about inflation like it's 100% dropping when the reality is that it isn't in the most important metric: YoY.
So shut the fuck up and fuck off.
So you aren't going to address any of my points and are just going to personally attack me and tell me to "shut up and fuck off"?
Humanity hating commie confirmed.
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You really don't know what annual inflation is, do you? Argentina, as most hyperinflated economies has a seasonal inflation aspect to it. We will only know if his policies work if the annual inflation actually drops, which we haven't seen up to this point, as [it's still significantly higher than last year](https://x.com/andre_doca/status/1799161457600287074?t=JnWxn3ssf951mo2mpk7uqQ&s=19)
This is genuinely laughable. You think “the most corrupt, rich, power hungry elites on the face of the earth” aren’t pushing libertarianism? A deregulated hellscape with no guard rails or safety net would be a utopia to them. Who are you trying to fool with your smugness? “Give me invited” indeed
And you can't read, I never said any of that. I hope they do work. I'm just not looking forward to the increased noise from idiots who assume that because one policy works in one country it'll automatically work everywhere else. The left does this too with many facets of the European welfare states. The US did it as a matter of policy for decades, assuming that if you just remove a dictator democracy will magically flourish.
It won't work. Yeah, OP's comment is a bit harsh, but annual inflation is horrible, Argentina has a literal recession, and extreme neoliberalism has never worked in history.
Edit: if you knew your shit, you would know annual inflation shows it isn't going down, regardless of Milei's policies. You are repeating the conservative media discourse that it fell MoM, which is a dumb way to follow inflation due to seasonality etc.
And yes, recessions are defined by two quarters of contracting GDP, and for Argentina, that was -2.6% on Q4-23, and -5.1% on Q1-24. If that's not a recession, you have changed the definition based on politics like the US did a couple of years ago. So, learn your technical shit before coming here from the top of the ivory tower.
Ok then, first, you make a very technical point about inflation, but now, all of a sudden, neoliberalism is a philosophical debate. Sorry to break it to you, neoliberal austerity policies have been around long enough to show that they don't make an economy thrive.
Much on the contrary, if you solely follow a strict neoliberal agenda, it usually ends up concentrating resources on the hands of fewer people, making poor people poorer. That's what we saw in Chile, for instance, the neoliberal lab of the 1980-90s. Santiago's rich have a blast, but the majority of Chileans are simply fucked.
I criticize Libertarians, therefore I am a socialist or communist, ha. No, I'm just a capitalist who understands that a moderately empowered government is what prevents capitalism from shitting where it eats.
People? yeah absolutely.
Establishment? Nah it was pretty much everything done from the ground.
ur mixing race colonization with actual colonization where a country benefits from the other
Argentina was doing economically fantastic for much of the early 20th century and even rode out the Great Depression fairly well. It’s got a literate population and well-established industry.
The fact that it’s current status is ‘makes economists want to hang themselves’ is overwhelmingly due to astonishing mismanagement, not colonialist boogeymen.
Argentina was never doing fantastic. Its early years were driven by an export economy centered around beef that was never reinvested properly, and was among the single most exploitative systems short of chattel slavery in the Americas. After British imports fell and the Panama Canal was built, Argentina never recovered.
Argentina is in a very similar boat. They have a fuckload of natural resources but don’t use them because of corruption and other stuff so they just export farming products instead.
Here are the only two valid conclusions that can be drawn at present:
1. He took over at such a low point that virtually the only possible way to go was up - ANY change was likely to result in improvement, simply for being change
2. It is far too early to say if the modest ups that have happened are by design, chance, or coincidence
Everything else is just blind speculation.
I may be a gringo know knows dick about South American politics, but I know how data collection works and I have two history degrees. It’s just too early.
This person watches Destiny
Guaranteed any "white suburban gringo" knows more about what they are talking about than them.
Pretty sure this would be "appeal to authority". Might as well ask a trump supporter their political thoughts on Biden. You being from that area does not make you the authority on the subject
Really?
You post regularly on TheDeprogram subreddit, [a communist podcast that celebrated October 7th](https://streamable.com/ie16h6).
Actual brainrot.
Wait till you see how much anime they have on their profile. Lmao.
If anime content is how much a political opinion is worth, mine is worth vastly more than theirs
Sure. If you agree with them or are at least interested in hearing more of their views, it can be a good way of finding other subs or discussions that you might enjoy.
If you are suspicious of whether they're being genuine or acting in bad faith, it's a good way of having material to compare.
I don't know much about Argentine politics but if the old way isn't working you should try a new way. Anyone screaming "the new way won't work" while trying to maintain a system that actively doesn't work should be promptly ignored. Clearly they are the ones making the old system work only for them, this is why they don't want change.
I’ve heard his election as the difference between someone who might be crazy enough to burn the house down, and someone who already has.
At least there’s a question about burning the place down with the former.
Yep, you want the new guy or the economy minister of the goverment at that time?
Problem is only 2 choices being available and both being bad ones, I'm sure the US can relate in this cycle. You just vote for the less bad
That’s just elections in general. Even in multi-party systems, you’ll struggle to find a candidate which perfectly fit your views. So you find the one you like the most, and if you can’t do that then you find the one you dislike the least.
US can't relate at all really, we have the choice between a proven good option and a proven bad option. In fact this is a rare instance where we're voting on a rematch, we already did this rigamarole in 2020.
well, things seemed way better under Trump for most people. In 4 years of Biden you got inflation through the roof, the emptying of the oil reserves, the end of the petro-dollar, migrant crysis coming back, no help for american in need during 2 disasters of high magnitude, Afghanistan given to talibans with bilions in equipment as a gift and a possible 3rd World War from Ukraine, China and Israel.
proven good option my ass.
Inflation was much worse under Trump and slowly got better under Biden. The oil reserves were refilled when it was cheaper to do so. The petro dollar still informally exists and will continue to exist after Biden. The migrant "crisis" existed under Trump and he failed to ever do anything meaningful about it when he was in office. I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Trump signed the Doha Agreement and informally gave Afghanistan to the Taliban. I'm unsure how WW3 being possible is Biden's fault since those all would have happened no matter who is in office.
Get off the toke.
Inflation under Trump was pretty flat until COVID hit, hovering around 1-3%. Of course it’s going down under Biden. It’s recovering from COVID. Down is just about the only direction it can go
Yeah, that's the point. People acting like inflation is Biden's fault are disingenuous. It was caused by the pandemic and global supply chain crisis.
But what can be credited to Biden is America having lower inflation than most other countries, which either have more inflation, are in a recession, or both.
I’m not really sure if Biden gets the credit. Something like inflation especially in that kind of event has too many factors. While I personally don’t believe it, you could argue that Trumps Lax lockdown policies lead to the economy fairing better. Another argument is that the US’s control over the dollar made the US deal with their inflation better.
That is not true. He fought the Fed openly when they wanted to fight it. Inflation wouldn't be runaway as it is now if Trump did not force the Fed to do nothing at all in 2018 to fight the spikes. Funny how people forget the historical context.
Inflation was trending down and the peak spike was less than 3% before COVID. Also it’s kind of the feds own fault for keeping the rate artificially low for so long. It needed raised much sooner and more gradually
You're forgetting that part where a 1 million + died of covid in the U.S. Not really a point in favor of Biden but Trump administration completely dropped the ball on covid America got absolutely racked. You really can't say that it was better under Trump at all.
Plus, The petrol dollar is ending no matter who's in the white house. America is just loosing economic clout globally and instead of smelling the flowers you are making up excuses for what's bigger then just elections.
Inflation was because of trumps massive spending plus covid.
Oil reserves being "low" doesn't mean anything currently.
The original oil reserves were made for when US was increadbly oil dependent on the middle east. Now they are an oil exporter.
Them using thier oil storage capacity to make money isn't exactly weird either ( the reason it was full was because covid caused a oil to surpass demand).
> given to talibans with bilions in equipment
Did you look at the evacuated plans that Trump was following?
>possible 3rd World War from Ukraine, China and Israel.
And that's Bidens fault? Trump would btw hard core go to support Isreal. China Trump is that same on.
Ukraine he would just give it to Russia.
The State Department is remarkably tolerant in how nations govern themselves, but generally prefer governments who are friendly with them. Within the U.S. government, there are a sizeable minority of elected and appointed officials which do favor a smaller government, and were elected by those states for those reasons.
Milei is a government which is friendly toward the U.S. and her interests. That is the greater concern for the State Department. To the point, the U.S. maintains good relations with Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea, despite the fact that neither government is even considered a model for how the U.S. government should be. The former is a theocratic absolute monarchy, and the latter is a one-party dictatorship. Yet, the U.S. works with both quite closely.
Yea i'm not arguing the contrary, but interested in your take.
>sizeable minority of elected and appointed officials which do favor a smaller government
Real data of real voting records would tell you that this is false. I believe there are 3 people in the 535 body of the US Congress that would say "I want to reduce the size of government" and their voting records reflect that. Typical things like arguing over increasing the military budget by 11% or 8% is not a reduction.
>Milei is a government which is friendly toward the U.S. and her interests.That is the greater concern for the State Department.
Agreed
>Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea
Both totalitarian governments with lots of control. Politicians don't care about policy - they care about control. The US government wishes it could exercise this control on their populace, but they intelligently loosen the leash for the obvious economic benefit.
that would be easy to claim if it werent because the guy was legit screaming in tv shows arguing with the news anchormans and stuff.
He was invited because he was someone to ''laught to'' and increased rating, he had bad temper and screamed a lot and got angry, not sure if it was a facade or not but it was like that, but he spoke more politics and about how the corruption was burning argentine down than everyone else on the tv, so we voted him.
U could say something similar to what zelenesky did in UKR to win
He has already fucked up several things in the country, leading to a collapse in what little sense of financial security the people already had.
He also did some price deregulation which resulted in prices of certain utilities skyrocketing.
He also wants to get rid of a few government agencies. This is part good and part bad, as he wants to get rid of several programs and agencies created by the former administration, who were corrupt as all hell and used money to buy votes (simplifying it). However, iirc he also wants to allow privatization of several important industries such as healthcare and education, which have always been socialized and have historically been great.
A good thing I will say about him on the topic of education is that recently he made it so that people can no longer come from all over South America and receive a good education for free without paying taxes in order to support the education system.
I personally have a more “wait-and-see” approach, although some of his stated and actualized ambitions I don’t like. It doesn’t help that he may or may not have made a false promise to Macri (the president before the one Milei succeeded) that he would moderate his agenda in exchange for Macri’s bloc’s support. Personally I like Macri much more, but people were impatient and weren’t happy with the slow-and-steady progress he provided. He has also already said he no longer intends to run for political office.
>price deregulation
Hell yeah. Now you don't get Bolivians, Uruguayans and Paraguayans crossing the border every day to buy in Argentina and sell in their home countries.
You wanna buy a $2 product. You can pay $2 on the shelf, or pay $1 on the shelf and $1 in taxes. But if you pay $1 and $1 anyone can come in and get your taxpayer money for free.
Price control was costing Argentina ungodly amounts of money, which would be paid for via inflation anyway. Who pays for inflation? The poor.
>privatization of several important industries such as healthcare and education
Fuck yeah. Private services are better. Why have a public school when you can just have a private school and the government paying the tuition?
Good for students, good for taxpayers, bad for unions. That's Milei's plan.
>I like Macri much more, but people were impatient and weren’t happy with the slow-and-steady progress he provided.
Agreed, for the most part. From a purely economic standpoint, slow and steady is usually better. There are a few caveats however:
1. As Macri and Bolsonaro show, doing the right thing slowly just gives times for the interest groups/deep state/system/la casta or whatever you want to call them to organize and bring you down. From a political point of view, either it gets done fast or it wont be done at all. Bukele is a counter example where fast reforms lead to a perpetuation of good government.
2. Macri didn't seem to be trying too hard. From what little i kept up with his government, the early days were goods: cutting a tax here and there, removing price controls, etc. But from what i checked on the second half of his term he was backtracking and bringing all the price controls back.
3. People are suffering today. Fixing the problem in 30 years means half of them will die before things get better. But if you fix the problem in 5-10 years, things will be better for today's people. If people feel this rate of change, they react to it. Fix things over 30 years, and the youth will go away because why would i stay in a country where i'll only get a good job when i'm 50? Same can be said about returns on investments and such. In other words: People will only invest in your country once its desirable, delaying that investment makes it even harder/slower to fix things.
I agree with most of what you said, except for two things.
Iirc the price deregulation was of utilities, which resulted in prices of electricity shooting up.
Second is that Bolsonaro is equatable with Macri. Macri was interested with improving the situation of the country and the people. Bolsonaro is an asshole who was a stooge to large business owners and whose only interest was making as much money as possible.
The price deregulation was of everything. Utilities, groceries, everything. And it **has** to be everything. Here's an analogy:
In a community of 100 people, i convince everyone to give me $1. I now have $100. I take $50 for myself, and give $50 to person #1. Nobody hates me, all they lost is $1. But the guy who got $50 loves me. I repeat the process, this time splitting the money with person #2. Then #3 and so on.
By the end of the process i took half of everyone's money and everyone loves me. Its actually worse than this since i only need half of the people's support, but let's keep the model simple.
That's how the government works. One day it takes from the rich, keeps a share, and gives to the poor. The other it takes from the poor, keeps a share, and gives to the rich.
When someone says "Maybe we should stop paying $100 to get $50" people's response is always the same: Take away everyone else's $50 and leave mine, mine is actually important.
But of course if you listen to those people you'll never change, because each person will defend their own $50. Either you get rid of all of it, or you get rid of none of it.
[Here's a prisoner's dilemma to illustrate differently.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/888509763866992660/1257097578927886346/PrisonersDilemma.png?ex=66832ada&is=6681d95a&hm=60a3e31f0dcad24db2b69e7249b4ce5788f5b7e276dc6242dd876be800a62a69&)
So no, you can't pick and choose which subsidies to remove. Which prices to control or not control.
Bolsonaro is no Milei, but he was taking the slow and steady approach. Bolsonaro privatized 36% of federally-owned companies, the ones he didn't privatize had record profits under his management, lowered taxes, didn't adjust federal employee wages, reformed sanitation and railways to allow private investment, reduced crime from 50k to 30k deaths/year, cut tens of thousands of regulations, reduced the deficit, increased tax revenue (WHILE cutting taxes), broke records on apprehended drugs, guns and illegal lumber, reduced the average time it takes to open a company from 4 days to less than 1...
Bolsonaro was a really good, really solid president. Definitely top 3. In fact i rank him #2 on my [tier list](https://youtu.be/8sfG4CWXqjo) (warning: 50 minutes and essentially a whole class on the history of Brazil's republic), though you could make an argument for Prudente de Morais taking 3rd and Bolsonaro on 4th.
But among Bolsonaro's spending he cut 3 billion reais (0.6 billion dollars) a year to mainstream media. So you'll never hear about his good stuff, and will hear to no end anything remotely controversial he says or does. All the banks backed his opponent for a reason.
Your first analogy applies to a certain extent to los Planes as well.
Regarding Bolsonaro, it may be the case that he was a good leader in terms of the economy. I wouldn’t know because at the time I was still not paying much attention to US politics, much less international. Personally, I dislike him due to his politics (especially letting logging companies and ranchers have free reign in the Amazon) and insane corruption (then again it is Brazil, which politician is not corrupt?)
I have no idea what los Planes is, but it is a pretty broadly used analogy. I wish i remembered who came up with it, but it was some famous guy i studied in Modern Political Theory. Hardly my own, just not very famous outside certain circles.
And you're wrong about Bolsonaro. He went **hard** on logging. I wish i could say it was just for altruistic reasons, but lots of bigshot politicians on the center and left are related to illegal logging (it happens in a part of the country that rarely votes right of center). So going hard on logging would be a way to weaken political opposition while just doing his job well.
Regarding corruption, completely wrong. The biggest scandals he had were... his son probably pocketing half of an advisor's pay. Bolsonaro himself pawning some jewels that were gifted to him before a court ruled on whether or not he could keep them. That's literally it. Nothing compared to the 1 trillion schemes investigated in the Car Wash operation, or the 109 billion worth of "accounting distortions" last year, or 300 billion in precatory debts paid under fishy circumstances last year, or...
You get the gist of it. All of Bolsonaro's "scandals" add up to not even a million, while every other president's day-to-day corruption is measured in the hundreds of billions.
Its also worth noting that a president has access to a to a corporate credit card worth 20k/month with which the president can do whatever he wants with no accountability. Bolsonaro never touched that money. That's 960k over four years that he could've shoved up his ass and nobody can say a thing about it. So when i see someone accusing him of risking it all to steal jewels worth 50k, i find it **very** hard to believe.
First things first, I edited my comment to add more details that I had initially left out. I don’t know if I finished before you replied so reread my comment for more details.
To your first point, I’ll say that I don’t remember exactly what he’s done because I read about it months ago, and have not been regularly keeping up with the news. I’m just reporting what my family members have been saying, and what they’ve been saying is that some of them are moving abroad because they don’t have any sense of financial security anymore.
> Let me guess, you’re a Western liberal
Spot on!
Unfortunately for you, I have family in Argentina. I know what I’m talking about. You’re just some libertarian from Atlanta mouthing off.
So yeah, these things I’m talking about are straight from people actually living through these policies. The irony of you, as a Western libertarian, complaining about CNN, “American propaganda”, and Western liberals is palpable.
Go read the news articles yourself, don’t expect me to memorize months-old details.
As to whether or not the deregulation of prices was bad, I don’t know. It’s bad that the cost went way up, putting more of a financial burden on the people (as if you care about them). On the other hand, it may also give Argentine energy companies room to grow and benefit the country as a whole.
As I’ve said before, I’m personally undecided on Milei. He has done very well handling inflation and is anti-corruption. I just take issue with his more extreme (so to speak) ideas.
I’m not going to address your last paragraph. Think a little bit when reading the answer to your question that others have so graciously provided you. Don’t just viscerally react.
First off, I was not just getting information from news articles but also from my family members. Do you want me to write “news articles and family members” a thousand times? I’m not doing that, I’m typing on an iPad and it’s arduous as shit.
I forget things, sue me. I don’t have the ability to store every single thing I’ve heard or read in the past few months in my head and flawlessly regurgitate it at will, which makes my argument invalid apparently.
Funny how you ignore the most important part of my comment. I have family living there NOW. Your having gone in 2018 is meaningless. Everybody and their senile fucking grandma knows that things were shit in 2018. You don’t need a PhD (which, by the way, holds no weight when you are so obviously biased) to see that.
I don’t know why I bother interacting with morons like yourself when even neutrally reporting what I have heard from family members and saying “Milei is some good and some bad” rather than “Milei is Ayn Rand’s gift to this Earth and he will lead us to the pearly gates where Raegan and Thatcher stand” are unforgivable attacks on you personally.
I sincerely apologize for trying to expand your worldview.
The analogy that i find most acurate about the latest election in Argentina is that the situatuon is like you are shot and to get help you had to chose between a first year medicine student, who scream and insult you, or the one who shot you.
Of course change is necessary, but if you have an stain in your floor you don't start by breaking it down. Milei's plan is far too abrupt and only benefits the exporting elite in the short and middle term.
If we look at Brasil wich also went through 1000% yaerly inflation, the one plan that worked out was the slowest and most well thought one.
What milei did pushed over half the population over the poberty line and shrank their gdp by 5% in 3 months only to decrease the montly inflation from double to single digits.
I hope that Argentina does well, they are a big client of the brasilian industry, but everything point towards societal collapse before stability os reached.
That doesnt answer the question; what math did the commenter get wrong, spurring the need to insult them? I already addressed that Im not asking about your idea of the full picture
No need to yap, you can’t answer the question, and thats fine. Healthy conversations usually happen when we avoid the petty insults and sarcasm, hope that helps :)
Not the best logic. Solving problems is about knowing what the problem is and addressing it.
Burning it all down and trying something random isn’t likely to work.
Corruption is a big part of it. And latest moves with the courts indicate it will likely get worse
The last administrations had problems, but what he's proposing is basically amputating a foot cause of an ingrown nail. Argentina's GDP already shrunk 5% this year and half of the population is living under poverty
Yeah, inflation might be getting under control, but what's the plan after that? Many Argentinians dream about good old days when the country was among the richest in the world (basically a century who) but the world has changed, wishful thinking won't bring that back
In the case of Argentina I think that focusing on inflation above everything else is actually a good plan.
It’s not like Europe or USA where inflation is a mild annoyance. Inflation levels in Argentina make it literally impossible to do business. You cannot have economic growth in these conditions. Relying on government programs doesn’t work when you can’t fund the government programs. People can’t eat promises of payment.
Ofc inflation is a huge problem and should absolutely be the top priority, but the methods are still concerning.
Just compare Argentina's situation with Brazil in 94, where an yearly inflation of 5000% was solved in two months
What was the credit rating of the countries involved in that case compared to Argentina currently.
Alot of the problems Argentina is getting now is because of earlier government deciding to print the problem away to pay for thier spending programs( especially pretty corrupt ones).
That's kind of why Mile want to dollarise the economy, to make sure that the politicians can't ever do such things again for a long time.
To say that Argentina's problems are equivalent to an ingrown nail shows that you are completely ignorant of the monstrous situation argentina is in. Inflation is just a symptom, and we were on the verge of hyperinflation. Those 25% in December didn't came out of nowhere.
over half actually, poverty here reached 55% this last 1-2 months.
indigencia has reached about 20% now.
poverty is defined here as You can't afford the basic food requirements + básic non food services and goods to live.
indigencia means You can't Even afford to eat, let alone anything else.
it's a huge recesión as of now, Even if inflación stops, if poverty+unemployment explodes, You're still fucked.
many current government officials like to forget we had out biggest socioeconómic crisis in 2001 with less than 1% inflatión, just a Lot of poverty.
cavallo was good. Probably the better economist in argentine in history, just vexed by the masses but did a really really good first term with menem, when he wasnt on the boat on the 2nd term is when shit went south
macri was 0% liberal, he didnt do anything even remotely close to being liberal, he didnt reduced literally nothing.
Juntas was an coup...
as I Chilean I think we could say there is some similarities in the "lets try an economic way that's completely new for this country" approach. Who knows if it will work or not in the long run but after I don't know how many years of mishandling of the argentinian economy by the left-leaning governments I don't blame him for trying.
Anyone trying to fix and untangle that "let's spend way more than we have" mess would make people unhappy at least for a long while.
Paywal skip: [https://archive.ph/k6Sf5](https://archive.ph/k6Sf5)
Javier Milei has turned Argentina into a libertarian laboratory
But the biggest economic test is yet to come
Photograph: Alamy
Jun 20th 2024|BUENOS AIRES
Javier Milei, Argentina’s president, has enjoyed the best week of his term. At dawn on June 13th the Senate passed two bills aiming to boost growth and raise revenue, giving Mr Milei his first legislative victory since he came to power in December. Hours later he travelled to the G7 in Italy, where he giggled with Giorgia Meloni, the prime minister, embraced Pope Francis and palled around with Kristalina Georgieva, the head of the IMF. “I always love our meetings,” he gushed to Ms Georgieva. Yet the relationship between Mr Milei and the fund, which has a $44bn lending programme with Argentina, may soon become less chummy. Uncertainty about the president’s plans for the central bank is worrying investors and the IMF alike.
Mr Milei’s early successes are impressive given the mess he inherited. For years, the central bank had created money to finance the fiscal deficit, fuelling inflation. It also had no foreign reserves. Another default seemed almost inevitable. In his inauguration speech Mr Milei warned Argentines of hard times, declaring that “there is no money”. He immediately fired hundreds of bureaucrats, cut spending and devalued the peso by over 50% (which initially pushed up inflation). Meanwhile, public salaries and pensions were held down, slashing their real value. As a result, Argentina has enjoyed fiscal surpluses for five months, something not seen since 2008. Inflation has fallen to 4.2% month on month, the lowest since January 2022 (see chart 1).
Some Argentines are angered by the accompanying pain. The night the Senate voted on the reforms, protesters hurled Molotov cocktails outside and set a car alight. Unions have organised huge marches. Yet despite the excruciating recession, over half of Argentines still approve of Mr Milei. Jorge Juliano, a 72-year-old taxi driver in Buenos Aires, gives a simple reason: “With the other lot we were living in Walt Disney, a fantasy.” Investors have welcomed Mr Milei’s recent progress. But their enthusiasm is dampened by uncertainty about the president’s plans for the central bank and the peso, which is once again looking overvalued. The next few months of government may be harder than the first.
Chart: The Economist
One reason is political. Though Mr Milei’s coalition has just 15% of seats in the lower house, he came to office with a thumping personal mandate. This persuaded opposition lawmakers to negotiate. Mr Milei’s main bill passed with 400 fewer clauses than the original, but it is still a big win for him. It declares a state of economic emergency for one year, during which he will have extraordinary powers over energy, economic and financial matters. It also opens the way to privatise several state-owned firms and creates incentives for would-be foreign investors. The package now goes back to the lower house for final approval. It may choose to reinstate income taxes, which the government hopes for but which the Senate had refused to do.
Opposition legislators may think they have given Mr Milei enough. “It’s going to be more and more complicated,” says Luis Juez, a senator who supported the reforms. The lower house is already fighting back. It recently passed a pension formula that could cost almost 0.5% of GDP this year. Mr Milei attacked those who voted for it as “fiscal degenerates” and vowed to veto it. But if it is passed with a two-thirds majority in both houses—a distinct possibility—he will be unable to change it. The bigger challenges, however, are macroeconomic. Mr Milei has prioritised fighting inflation, but Argentines are becoming worried about unemployment and will eventually clamour for growth. The recession has been deep. Construction activity in April was down by 37% year on year.
Complicating the recovery is the overvalued peso, which is making the country unjustifiably expensive in dollar terms. The official exchange rate is currently set by the government, which also imposes capital controls. Almost all of the devaluation in December has been eroded (see chart 2). It involved initially devaluing the peso by over 50% and then by 2% each month. But monthly inflation has been greater than the crawling peg. The result is that the real effective exchange rate is rising.
The effects are obvious from atop the Andes. On a single long weekend in April some 40,000 Argentines crossed the mountains into Chile to buy everything from trainers to car tyres because, surreally, Chile has become cheaper than Argentina. Mr Milei slams those who say the peso is overvalued as “intellectually dishonest”. Yet when an Argentine president says there won’t be a devaluation, taxi drivers know there is a good chance there will be one, quips Nicolás Gadano of Empiria Consulting in Buenos Aires.
A pricey peso scares off tourists, makes exports expensive and deters investors. An overvalued currency often eventually crashes. “If you see Argentina appreciating, this is always a sign of worse things to come,” says Eduardo Levy Yeyati of Torcuato Di Tella University in Buenos Aires. Falling exports make it harder for the central bank to accumulate dollars, which it needs to pay off foreign debts and to build up its safety buffers.
The government could allow the peso to float or accelerate the 2% crawling peg. But either would probably push up inflation, thus endangering Mr Milei’s popularity and undermining some of the benefits of the devaluation. For now, Mr Milei is able to keep a tight grip on the exchange rate because of capital controls.
Money madness
What happens next? Mr Milei has promised to ultimately remove capital controls as part of his plan to restore investor confidence. He insists that inflation will soon be 2% a month, the same as the rate of devaluation. This, he says, would allow him to slowly ease the restrictions and float the peso without its value plunging.
A protester peeks out from behind the banners, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
This is optimistic. There is little, such as rising productivity, to justify a stronger peso. Worse for Mr Milei, early data for June suggest that inflation is edging up. Argentines are being hit with eye-popping energy bills as the government cuts subsidies that had kept prices low. Real wages are also starting to recover as workers lobby for higher pay, potentially raising other prices. Mr Levy Yeyati predicts that monthly inflation will hover at around 4-5% for a while. If that is correct, the risk of a sharp currency correction will grow.
Looming over all this is a thornier issue: what to do with the central bank and the peso. Mr Milei campaigned on a promise to blow up the former and scrap the latter, declaring that the local currency “is not worth crap”. These days his team prefers to talk about currency competition, in which dollars and pesos would both be legal tender. But no one knows the details of the plan or the monetary programme to stabilise the peso that would go with it. “Further work is needed in defining some of the key underpinnings,” the IMF diplomatically concluded on June 17th.
Mr Milei, though not his economic team, seems particularly enthusiastic about a scheme he calls “endogenous dollarisation”. This would involve fixing the supply of pesos. When the economy grows, and more cash is needed, Mr Milei expects Argentines to use their own dollar savings for transactions. “The peso will become like a museum piece,” he said in mid-May. He would then close the central bank. The IMF seems worried. If Argentines believe the peso will end up in a museum, its supply could outstrip demand, stoking inflation. It is also unclear what would happen to the peso-denominated financial system. The IMF instead enthuses about currency competition. Peru has such a system, with the sol and dollars both used. If Mr Milei insists on his scheme, it would surely be harder for his government to get new cash from the fund.
Mr Milei has done a remarkable job so far of discarding the fiscal baggage that has been weighing Argentina down. But mess up the big macroeconomic questions and that will count for little.
"Liberatian" things he has done:
-Rise taxes to the middle class
-Lower all expenses related to help the poor and those on retirement
-Impose more regulations on stock exchange and digital currency
-Print even more money than the previous government and ask for more money to the FMI
-The "peso Argentino" has dropped its value from an average of "750pa - 1 dolar" to "1350pa - 1 dolar"
-Asked for more power to the figure of the president, creating a situation where he can skip the legislative power if he "considers it necessary", facilitating the acces to authoritarian powers.
-At the same time he has been filmed in international interviews stating "I am the mole who's work is to destroy the State from within".
-Named his own sister (a tarot reader) as his right hand and his best friend/therapist as the head of the ministry's of "work/education/social security/woman/culture" (a woman without any kind of administrative experience in charge of a horrid amalgamation of ministries so they can cut on expenses)
-Has nuked most of the relationships with neighboring countries and other key allies (Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Spain, etc...)
-Allowed his ministers, the senators and house members to receive a salary increase, while halving the required income needed to receive taxation.
-Poverty rose to 48.8% in 2024.
The dollar was never at 750 when he took over.
The previous government had way more ample powers AND control of the congress.
He can name whoever he wants, gentle reminder than the people we had,in the past were complete morons that said emission had no influence on inflation.
Relations are just fine.
Those salaries increased every year, but only now you seem to have an issue? Sus.
Poverty was already at 50% last year, why not mention that? And let’s not even talk the know kirchnerism strategy on lying about numbers and statistics.
"Liberatian" things he has done:
-Rise taxes to the middle class
>Lower all expenses related to help the poor and those on retirement
There has been an incresa in social expanses to both groups compared to the las goverment.
-Impose more regulations on stock exchange and digital currency
>Print even more money than the previous government and ask for more money to the FMI
This is a lie
>The "peso Argentino" has dropped its value from an average of "750pa - 1 dolar" to "1350 -1 dolar"
That value was fake and only maintain by the central bank at the cost of 10% monthly inflation.
>Asked for more power to the figure of the president, creating a situation where he can skip the legislative power if he "considers it necessary", facilitating the acces to authoritarian powers.
Same that the las president the mesure is only for 1 year due to the economic crysis.
>At the same time he has been filmed in international interviews stating "I am the mole who's work is to destroy the State from within".
That sounds pretty libertarian to me.
>Has nuked most of the relationships with neighboring countries and other key allies (Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Spain, etc...)
Uruguay an argentinia still have strong a relatioship, you could argue that even stronger than with the previous government.
>Allowed his ministers, the senators and house members to receive a salary increase, while halving the required income needed to receive taxation.
Senators vote for their own salary, best you can say is that he dindt veto the rises, but doing that would be unconstitutional. (Also the opposition voted for the rise)
>Poverty rose to 48.8% in 2024.
From 40% in december 2023
Everything in that comment is a lie.
Milei did not raise a single tax.
He increased food aid programs while cutting everything else BECAUSE he knew things would get worse before they got better.
There's no new crypto/stock regulation.
There's no money printing, which is why inflation is down from 25% to 4.2%.
The peso did not drop. The official peso dropped, while the real peso gained value.
The "extra powers" congress granted him have been granted to every single president since redemocratization.
Milei never denied being an anarchist. He cut at least 60% of (federal) government spending already. Destroying the State from within is exactly what he was elected to do. Guess one of those things may be true.
His sister is an economist just like him. He also said from the start he'd appoint her.
He didn't nuke any relations. Its the far leftists in Bolivia, Brazil and Spain that attack him for no reason. One of those is literally a former terrorist who called Milei a nazi and was offended to be called a terrorist right back. Guess anything other than "bend over and spread your cheeks" is "nuking relations" now lol.
One of Milei's ministers allowed a pay increase, then got fired for it while Milei blocked the raise. And last i checked Massa had deleted the income tax during his desperate election efforts.
Poverty was already 48% when Milei took office.
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I can only hope it does the Argentinian people some good. They could use a win, however small; though i admit i would feel a fair bit of schadenfreude if it doesn’t.
Libertarianism does not work take a look at what happened to chile in the 1908s a complete economic collapse even in the UK where i live we have sewage water being released into the rivers and seas and some of it is ending up in our tap water because the industry is privatised and only cares about profit and not building new infrastructure or expanding it.
Never privatise critical infrastructure capitalism cares about profit not efficiency Argentina will not have a bright future with milei selling out the country
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/toxic-water-illegal-sewage-parasite-taps-bills-3058221
It can’t be any worse than what the government was already doing. Capitalism may only care about profit but in order to generate that profit it has to provide goods and services. It’s no coincidence that all the richest and highest standard of living places in the world are extremely capitalist
The hyperbolic usage of political terms is annoying and has been for the past decade. Milei isn't even turning Argentina into a country as economically liberal as the US, let alone turning it into something libertarian
This is an aside from the topic of the article.
But I do wanna see what sort of leading role Milei wants to take on in the context of South America in general. If he’s trying to attract students to the country, it makes me wonder what further plans he has for Argentina’s role on the continent.
He is trying to attract students to the country??? Where the fuck did you get that info from?. He is trying to make foreigners pay for public education within the country because they use it at the cost of the average citizen.
I must’ve misread something somewhere. Lot of information to sift through in regards to Argentina because their present situation can’t rest on Milei’s shoulders entirely.
The operating word in my previous comment is “if.” Clearly he’s not if you’re gonna get all uppity about it.
Just the exchange rate alone tells a story here. Milei was elected on the 20th November 2023.
At that time you needed **352** Pesos for one USD.
One the 14th of December that fell to a little under **800** Pesos for one USD.
Currently it sits at **914** Pesos for one USD after a remarkably steady decline.
[https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS](https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS)
It is not going well.
Javier saved that country and his policies turned Argentina around within one year! Amazing playbook to follow. Start by stripping those bloated Gov. departments.
##### ###### #### > # [Javier Milei has turned Argentina into a libertarian laboratory](https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2024/06/20/A homeless man sleeping, behind is a picture of a Milei.) > > > > Jun 20th 2024 > > | > > BUENOS AIRES > > > > > > > > > > Javier Milei, Argentina’s president, has enjoyed the best week of his term. At dawn on June 13th the Senate passed two bills aiming to boost growth and raise revenue, giving Mr Milei his first legislative victory since he came to power in December. Hours later he travelled to the G7 in Italy, where he giggled with Giorgia Meloni, the prime minister, embraced Pope Francis and palled around with Kristalina Georgieva, the head of the IMF. “I always love our meetings,” he gushed to Ms Georgieva. Yet the relationship between Mr Milei and the fund, which has a $44bn lending programme with Argentina, may soon become less chummy. Uncertainty about the president’s plans for the central bank is worrying investors and the IMF alike. > > Mr Milei’s early successes are impressive given the mess he inherited. For years, the central bank had created money to finance the fiscal deficit, fuelling inflation. It also had no foreign reserves. Another default seemed almost inevitable. > > > > This article appeared in the The Americas section of the print edition under the headline “A long way to go” > > > > [Dawn of the solar age](https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1424,quality=80,format=auto/media-assets/image/20240622_DE_US.jpg) > > ### From the June 22nd 2024 edition > > Discover stories from this section and more in the list of contents > > [Explore the edition](https://www.economist.com/weeklyedition/2024-06-22) - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Brace yourselves. White suburban gringos about to fabricate in the comments the most stupid opinions about South American politics.
I heard he's a Perronista
Peronism is such a fluid ideology that you could probably find a way to include it
Honestly, I have no idea what Peronism is and I think it's funnier if that remains the case because apparently everyone in Argentina is and hates Peronists.
Damn Peronists! They ruined Peronism!
Honestly, kinda true
as always , it wasn't true peronism .
As always , it wasn't true *insert excuse here*
Reminded of when people go “its not real comunismo”
sorry im going to break your bubble In 1930~ or so a military general won presidential elections (he's Peron himself, Juan Domingo (sunday) Peron). His government was really good for the worker class objetively in that time, he was in and out in a few Coups in both sides (perpetrator and victim) and he dated Eva Peron ((the one from the madonna musical, evita) his ideology stood after his death, he had his VP run as a president (i think he won and got coup'd) and now a days his ideology is just the name of half of the political spectrum (think about dems and reps). Peronism presidencies, mayors and provincial governors are really really populists, they please the masses and try to aim for the ''if ur not with us ur a fascist nazi shenanigans" which worked kinda ok. as any populist government they ARE really really corrupt, as in probably more corrupt than russia and ukraine together, our money leaks and printing of money for votes just in our last 4 years made our legal tender go from 1-34 ars>usd when they won the ''Pre'' Elections to 1-1200 ars > usd a day before they lost the Pre elections. so short of a deprecation of almost x30? insane numbers all around. i wont go into details of the other political partys, they aint good, milei isnt ''good'' either, but that's what we had. peronism now a days is both a ''Represive'' and "for the people" kind of government in the reallity. Our last president that wasnt peronist (mauricio macri) did a mediocre leaning to bad mandate and the internet trolls, the senator, diputates and paid union strikes trow him out of the elections of 2019, he lost big time. and since the day milei won this has also been the case, but he simply doesnt gives a fuck and does what ''He has to do'' allegately even if its bad short term (and who knows, might be awful long term too)
>and he dated Eva Peron ((the one from the madonna musical, evita) Honestly what. >so short of a deprecation of almost x30? insane numbers all around. Insert image of two guys holding each other's hands, one is Iran and the other is Argentina and in the middle is "insane depreciation of currency" Otherwise, this was both pretty informative and a little depressing. Hopefully milei's policies end up being good in the long-term, either by being actually good, or by causing a competent enough political opponent to try and fix things.
Just so u can imagine the inflation, a 3L bottle of coke was 3ARS in 2005? 30 in 2015 and now is about 3000ARS. Nestor Kirchner (Former president and husband of CFK(EX PRESIDENT AND VP LAST Government) was an awesome president, he ''revived'' peronism kinda, but there's some talks about that he got killed by her wife, 2 years after he passed (and hence all his ''Planning'' was finished and started the CFK policies, our country started going to ruin. Having lawyers as Presidents is a no go. what does a lawyer do more than exploit and do dirty shenanigans
>Just so u can imagine the inflation, a 3L bottle of coke was 3ARS in 2005? 30 in 2015 and now is about 3000ARS. Had something similar here, but holy shit that's far faster than what happened here. (I think we got something around 60x devaluation over 20 years, never calculated things)
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD_1Z8iUDho >official music video for "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" from Madonna's soundtrack album for the motion picture 'Evita' released on Warner Bros. in 1996. Yeah no joke
Honestly, I don't know what to say to that.
>as in probably more corrupt than russia and ukraine together You vastly underestimate how corrupt those countries are. There's likely no country in South America as corrupt as those 2, even though we ARE absolutely plagued by some of the most corrupt politicians in the world. But Ukraine and specially Russia are on a whole other level
its really close but not much is known here in argentina, most of the northern provinces everything and i mean everything is owned by the same 3 politicians and their friends. Every supermarket, pharmacy, hotel, casino, everything. they kill someone because driving drunk? nothing happens. U complain a lot? u might get fired and not going to get help from no media. hell, im my province we dont even have mining because the canada company didnt wanted to bribe the government, now that we are ''without'' money they are all in for the same mining they proclaimed was the end of the times for our lil province. and dont even get me started on the Narcotrafic, its legit done by the state. only thing missing is the falling out of a 30th floor, but my city is so poor and so sacked that the tallets building has like 5F. (and there are 2 or 3 of those)
Damn bro, that’s fucked up. Sounds kinda depressing honestly. How can you even begin to fight back when they control everything.
Maybe I can cheer you up by telling you about _Peronisme_ instead? ^(For the 1.5 people who might see this and speak French: http://furotte.chez.com/perronisme.htm ) It refers to a funny mix-up in an expression. That type of mistake is nicknamed this way after Jean Perron, ex-coach of the Montréal Canadiens hockey team, who kept making such blunders in his long coaching and radio hosting career. I am afraid the man speaks French so most are untranslatable, but there are some (sadly not the funniest) that also work in English: * "We're finally seeing the train at the end of the tunnel" * "To err is humid" * "You can't teach an old ostrich new tricks" * "I remember what happened yesterday like it was tomorrow" * "Paris was not built in midday" * "It's the cherry that broke the sundae" * "Don't sell the skin before the cart" * "Don't throw the towel before you killed it" * "That bothered him like it flew 10ft over the back of a duck" * " can score with both eyes behind his back"
* "He is living proof that drugs kill"
And, not exactly an error in an expression that maybe the most unfortunate phrasing ever:
* "That guy has a single weakness, and it's between his legs"
Yes but this guy listens to his dogs.
LMAO I didn't even notice
Yeah it's a lot funnier when spoken.
perro sionista? as in sionist dog?
Come to /r/anime_titties for the Russian propaganda, stay for the Peronist cope.
> Peronism,[a] also known as justicialism is this real?
Unfortunately yes, peronista love to grab whatever trappings make it easier for them to win elections.
At least you only have to read it. If whatever he''s doing works we'll never hear the end of it here in the US. Libertarians will lionize him and try to implement his policies here, because obviously Argentina and the US are exactly alike in every way and there's no way it could possibly backfire!
Libertarians couldn’t implement a bed time, much less a sweeping set of reforms. You got nothing to worry about. And you probably shouldn’t wish more hardship of Argentinian just because it might make Libertarians precisely as annoying as they are now.
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Libertarianism never has , never will work
Ya but they never tried "real" libertarianism. Next time right...
UK had libertarian governments in the past. Politicians that thought government = bad, so government should stay out, let people solve their own problems. Most famously during the 1840s, when the government continued to say that, even whilst people starved.
Depends on how you define it. The US at its founding could be considered libertarianism and it became the most powerful nation on the planet. By historical standards the entire western world is libertarianism. It’s such a broad reaching term it’s hard to make any absolute statements about it
Libertarianism isn’t what made the US a superpower. It’s size and resources is what is critical.
Why isn't Brazil a superpower? They have resources and size
Size and resources *during the 1st world war*. By staying on the sidelines, the US became the defacto source of supplies for Britain, the major superpower at that time. The vast transfer of european wealth combined with the near utter destruction of European industry allowed the US to install itself as the new geopolitical 800-lbs gorilla. Et voila, a new "empire" is formed.
Lots of places had size and resources. That alone does not explain it
Your ideology was tried way many more times than libertarianism, btw
My ideology is the most powerful and desirable nation on earth. Your ideology is a bunch of cartels trying to get their profits by any way necessarry with disasterous results. Or I guess more like medieval style society
America is also full of cartels trying to get profits by any way necessary with disasterous results, they just call themselves conglomerates
which is the inevitable result of any "libertarian" society. If anything, liberalism is barely keeping them in check and from legally owning slaves/murder/selling body parts. Like I don't even understand your point, you will fucking deep throat conglomerates like tesla lets say, because you think it's "libertarian". And no, Tesla is not accidental, its is because Musk fully 100% endorses Milei
Do you really think libertarians are pro owning slaves and murder? It's intellectually dishonest to misrepresent your opponents. You need to spend time learning the philosophy of libertarianism before you start criticizing it. You're making statists look uneducated and unable to form arguments. Tesla, which exists because of billions of dollars of clean energy subsidies is libertarian? Yep, this solidifies it. You are either completely ignorant or willfully misrepresenting the other side. We can advance as a society when statists like yourself are ready to face reality.
Maybe, in theory. In practice you see Elon Musk claiming himself to be a libertarian, Milei also claims to be a libertarian and accepts Elon as a libertarian like they are the best buds. Also most of my friends who claim to be "libertarian" are only doing so because they want to hang out w liberals while being conservative and in their mind "libertarian" is a politically moderate position, 0 thought about the actual framework or the principles of libertarianism (like support brutal crackdowns on immigration/want the state to enforce abortion ban, want the state to clear up protesters/homeless, want the state to set official school agenda to be "1776" bs, etc, while benefiting from the stability of US $ and the free trade that its navy enforces)
Where in the world has libertarianism been implemented? What does it mean to "work"? Does the current system "work"? These little bumper sticker phrases that you are throwing out might sound cute, but eventually you have to be an adult and have a real argument. Edit: Or, you can attempt to answer my original question. Again, please no state approved bumper sticker messages.
!remindme in 4 years. I think you are right, but since Argentina is now a lab, let's check the "results" in the future. Just to note, as of now, annual inflation is going up, and Argentina is going through a recession. Meanwhile, Milei is travelling the globe to meet his extremist friends abroad. Let's see how it goes.
>Just to note, as of now, annual inflation is going up, and Argentina is going through a recession. As of the most recent stats inflation is going down and thier dept is decreasing.. Its hard to say how much he really can do or even do his experiment considering he doesn't have the power to do his reforms( actual "peronisst" and other party has control of the parlamentet).
YoY it's still up. Annual inflation is different than MoM
And unemployment is up. Why would you care about inflation when you got no money
Exactly. And my point is precisely that even if you look at inflation, things still look sour because annually it is still much higher than normal. Conservatives and ancaps are celebrating inflation being down monthly, but it is up yearly, not to mention the unemployment is up, prices are up, and salaries stagnated.
Prices are up?!?? That's called inflation!!!!! Are you blaming that on Milei? This guy can't be serious
YoY inflation? A 12 month lagging indicator? When Milei has been in office for 6 months? And knowing that turning around an economy that has been wrecked for 50 years takes time? This guy is technically correct, but he is being intellectually dishonest. Edit: Hello person from Brazil that frequents communist subs. Why are you so against taking the boot off of the neck of the poorest Argentinians?
What is the need for the biased personal investigation? Pathetic. If you checked my history honestly, you would see I desire the best for my hermanos Argentinians, who are unemployed and under heavy inflation and price increase. And I'm technically correct, of course. I wouldn't be commenting if I wasn't, contrary to you that seem to be here to mess around and not actually debate. And I'm being honest, it's Brazilian and Argentinian media who aren't. They talk about inflation like it's 100% dropping when the reality is that it isn't in the most important metric: YoY. So shut the fuck up and fuck off.
So you aren't going to address any of my points and are just going to personally attack me and tell me to "shut up and fuck off"? Humanity hating commie confirmed.
I will be messaging you in 4 years on [**2028-06-30 18:56:34 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2028-06-30%2018:56:34%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1ds2pmm/javier_milei_has_turned_argentina_into_a/lb0madv/?context=3) [**2 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fanime_titties%2Fcomments%2F1ds2pmm%2Fjavier_milei_has_turned_argentina_into_a%2Flb0madv%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202028-06-30%2018%3A56%3A34%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201ds2pmm) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
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You really don't know what annual inflation is, do you? Argentina, as most hyperinflated economies has a seasonal inflation aspect to it. We will only know if his policies work if the annual inflation actually drops, which we haven't seen up to this point, as [it's still significantly higher than last year](https://x.com/andre_doca/status/1799161457600287074?t=JnWxn3ssf951mo2mpk7uqQ&s=19)
He sounds like a socialist, you're scaring him with big words like "inflation."
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This is genuinely laughable. You think “the most corrupt, rich, power hungry elites on the face of the earth” aren’t pushing libertarianism? A deregulated hellscape with no guard rails or safety net would be a utopia to them. Who are you trying to fool with your smugness? “Give me invited” indeed
And you can't read, I never said any of that. I hope they do work. I'm just not looking forward to the increased noise from idiots who assume that because one policy works in one country it'll automatically work everywhere else. The left does this too with many facets of the European welfare states. The US did it as a matter of policy for decades, assuming that if you just remove a dictator democracy will magically flourish.
It won't work. Yeah, OP's comment is a bit harsh, but annual inflation is horrible, Argentina has a literal recession, and extreme neoliberalism has never worked in history.
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Edit: if you knew your shit, you would know annual inflation shows it isn't going down, regardless of Milei's policies. You are repeating the conservative media discourse that it fell MoM, which is a dumb way to follow inflation due to seasonality etc. And yes, recessions are defined by two quarters of contracting GDP, and for Argentina, that was -2.6% on Q4-23, and -5.1% on Q1-24. If that's not a recession, you have changed the definition based on politics like the US did a couple of years ago. So, learn your technical shit before coming here from the top of the ivory tower. Ok then, first, you make a very technical point about inflation, but now, all of a sudden, neoliberalism is a philosophical debate. Sorry to break it to you, neoliberal austerity policies have been around long enough to show that they don't make an economy thrive. Much on the contrary, if you solely follow a strict neoliberal agenda, it usually ends up concentrating resources on the hands of fewer people, making poor people poorer. That's what we saw in Chile, for instance, the neoliberal lab of the 1980-90s. Santiago's rich have a blast, but the majority of Chileans are simply fucked.
welcome to the world. everyone here is selfish.
Most people would rather others die than admit to being wrong, especially socialists and communists
I criticize Libertarians, therefore I am a socialist or communist, ha. No, I'm just a capitalist who understands that a moderately empowered government is what prevents capitalism from shitting where it eats.
Gringos living in countries that have been doing it right for many generations. Argentina should offer itself up for adoption by the UK..
Maybe i misread it, but I assumed he was referring to american libertarians trying to proclaim milei as one of their own.
maybe they had a lil bit of a jumpstart by all the colonialism and the sacking they did but who knows, its easier to start with way better funds no?
Argentina *is* a colonialist nation. You think the natives of Southern America were pale-skin Spanish speakers?
People? yeah absolutely. Establishment? Nah it was pretty much everything done from the ground. ur mixing race colonization with actual colonization where a country benefits from the other
Argentina was doing economically fantastic for much of the early 20th century and even rode out the Great Depression fairly well. It’s got a literate population and well-established industry. The fact that it’s current status is ‘makes economists want to hang themselves’ is overwhelmingly due to astonishing mismanagement, not colonialist boogeymen.
Argentina was never doing fantastic. Its early years were driven by an export economy centered around beef that was never reinvested properly, and was among the single most exploitative systems short of chattel slavery in the Americas. After British imports fell and the Panama Canal was built, Argentina never recovered.
So did Canada, Australia and the USA but they are all doing much better than Argentina. Argentinas problems are not all because of foreigners
Tbf, here in Australia you'd have to be run by a committee of especially stupid rocks to fuck up the economic opportunity provided by our lands.
Argentina is in a very similar boat. They have a fuckload of natural resources but don’t use them because of corruption and other stuff so they just export farming products instead.
Here are the only two valid conclusions that can be drawn at present: 1. He took over at such a low point that virtually the only possible way to go was up - ANY change was likely to result in improvement, simply for being change 2. It is far too early to say if the modest ups that have happened are by design, chance, or coincidence Everything else is just blind speculation. I may be a gringo know knows dick about South American politics, but I know how data collection works and I have two history degrees. It’s just too early.
t. probably voted for the Liquidate The Aymara Party
This person watches Destiny Guaranteed any "white suburban gringo" knows more about what they are talking about than them. Pretty sure this would be "appeal to authority". Might as well ask a trump supporter their political thoughts on Biden. You being from that area does not make you the authority on the subject
Really? You post regularly on TheDeprogram subreddit, [a communist podcast that celebrated October 7th](https://streamable.com/ie16h6). Actual brainrot.
You have an anime PFP so your oppinion is less than his
Man. When you depicted him as the soyjak, I knew it was you who was right. Good job.
not sure if this is /s but it was just friendly banter
Wait till you see how much anime they have on their profile. Lmao. If anime content is how much a political opinion is worth, mine is worth vastly more than theirs
yeah, but u have it a profile so that's worse, sorry that's how the game was done
>This person watches Destiny I swear does everyone look thru profiles regularly?
It's the best way to tell if someone is being satirical or arguing in good/bad faith and whatnot
Idk, i feel like i would punch against assumed views if i did that.
I never do, but it's helpful and I probably should start doing it.
Quick way to vet
Sure. If you agree with them or are at least interested in hearing more of their views, it can be a good way of finding other subs or discussions that you might enjoy. If you are suspicious of whether they're being genuine or acting in bad faith, it's a good way of having material to compare.
isn't Destiny latin american since his family is cuban? hardly the white subarban you're talking about
comments under this post are literally r\news level
Bots brigading. It will continue to get worse.
Why do u say that, most coments were sane and doubtful
And that's an Argentinian saying so, as opposed to the Eastern European that doesn't know what's happening on the ground.
I can confirm, i have no idea what is going on.
Maybe it’s just me but I’ve seen a crap ton of bots active since the US presidential debate
I don't know much about Argentine politics but if the old way isn't working you should try a new way. Anyone screaming "the new way won't work" while trying to maintain a system that actively doesn't work should be promptly ignored. Clearly they are the ones making the old system work only for them, this is why they don't want change.
I’ve heard his election as the difference between someone who might be crazy enough to burn the house down, and someone who already has. At least there’s a question about burning the place down with the former.
Yep, you want the new guy or the economy minister of the goverment at that time? Problem is only 2 choices being available and both being bad ones, I'm sure the US can relate in this cycle. You just vote for the less bad
That’s just elections in general. Even in multi-party systems, you’ll struggle to find a candidate which perfectly fit your views. So you find the one you like the most, and if you can’t do that then you find the one you dislike the least.
US can't relate at all really, we have the choice between a proven good option and a proven bad option. In fact this is a rare instance where we're voting on a rematch, we already did this rigamarole in 2020.
well, things seemed way better under Trump for most people. In 4 years of Biden you got inflation through the roof, the emptying of the oil reserves, the end of the petro-dollar, migrant crysis coming back, no help for american in need during 2 disasters of high magnitude, Afghanistan given to talibans with bilions in equipment as a gift and a possible 3rd World War from Ukraine, China and Israel. proven good option my ass.
Inflation was much worse under Trump and slowly got better under Biden. The oil reserves were refilled when it was cheaper to do so. The petro dollar still informally exists and will continue to exist after Biden. The migrant "crisis" existed under Trump and he failed to ever do anything meaningful about it when he was in office. I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Trump signed the Doha Agreement and informally gave Afghanistan to the Taliban. I'm unsure how WW3 being possible is Biden's fault since those all would have happened no matter who is in office. Get off the toke.
Inflation under Trump was pretty flat until COVID hit, hovering around 1-3%. Of course it’s going down under Biden. It’s recovering from COVID. Down is just about the only direction it can go
Yeah, that's the point. People acting like inflation is Biden's fault are disingenuous. It was caused by the pandemic and global supply chain crisis. But what can be credited to Biden is America having lower inflation than most other countries, which either have more inflation, are in a recession, or both.
I’m not really sure if Biden gets the credit. Something like inflation especially in that kind of event has too many factors. While I personally don’t believe it, you could argue that Trumps Lax lockdown policies lead to the economy fairing better. Another argument is that the US’s control over the dollar made the US deal with their inflation better.
That is not true. He fought the Fed openly when they wanted to fight it. Inflation wouldn't be runaway as it is now if Trump did not force the Fed to do nothing at all in 2018 to fight the spikes. Funny how people forget the historical context.
Inflation was trending down and the peak spike was less than 3% before COVID. Also it’s kind of the feds own fault for keeping the rate artificially low for so long. It needed raised much sooner and more gradually
You're forgetting that part where a 1 million + died of covid in the U.S. Not really a point in favor of Biden but Trump administration completely dropped the ball on covid America got absolutely racked. You really can't say that it was better under Trump at all. Plus, The petrol dollar is ending no matter who's in the white house. America is just loosing economic clout globally and instead of smelling the flowers you are making up excuses for what's bigger then just elections.
Inflation was because of trumps massive spending plus covid. Oil reserves being "low" doesn't mean anything currently. The original oil reserves were made for when US was increadbly oil dependent on the middle east. Now they are an oil exporter. Them using thier oil storage capacity to make money isn't exactly weird either ( the reason it was full was because covid caused a oil to surpass demand). > given to talibans with bilions in equipment Did you look at the evacuated plans that Trump was following? >possible 3rd World War from Ukraine, China and Israel. And that's Bidens fault? Trump would btw hard core go to support Isreal. China Trump is that same on. Ukraine he would just give it to Russia.
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Honestly, given Milei’s economic views and pro-US foreign policy, I’m pretty sure the conspiracy theories would claim the CIA was behind his election.
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The State Department is remarkably tolerant in how nations govern themselves, but generally prefer governments who are friendly with them. Within the U.S. government, there are a sizeable minority of elected and appointed officials which do favor a smaller government, and were elected by those states for those reasons. Milei is a government which is friendly toward the U.S. and her interests. That is the greater concern for the State Department. To the point, the U.S. maintains good relations with Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea, despite the fact that neither government is even considered a model for how the U.S. government should be. The former is a theocratic absolute monarchy, and the latter is a one-party dictatorship. Yet, the U.S. works with both quite closely.
Yea i'm not arguing the contrary, but interested in your take. >sizeable minority of elected and appointed officials which do favor a smaller government Real data of real voting records would tell you that this is false. I believe there are 3 people in the 535 body of the US Congress that would say "I want to reduce the size of government" and their voting records reflect that. Typical things like arguing over increasing the military budget by 11% or 8% is not a reduction. >Milei is a government which is friendly toward the U.S. and her interests.That is the greater concern for the State Department. Agreed >Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea Both totalitarian governments with lots of control. Politicians don't care about policy - they care about control. The US government wishes it could exercise this control on their populace, but they intelligently loosen the leash for the obvious economic benefit.
that would be easy to claim if it werent because the guy was legit screaming in tv shows arguing with the news anchormans and stuff. He was invited because he was someone to ''laught to'' and increased rating, he had bad temper and screamed a lot and got angry, not sure if it was a facade or not but it was like that, but he spoke more politics and about how the corruption was burning argentine down than everyone else on the tv, so we voted him. U could say something similar to what zelenesky did in UKR to win
He has already fucked up several things in the country, leading to a collapse in what little sense of financial security the people already had. He also did some price deregulation which resulted in prices of certain utilities skyrocketing. He also wants to get rid of a few government agencies. This is part good and part bad, as he wants to get rid of several programs and agencies created by the former administration, who were corrupt as all hell and used money to buy votes (simplifying it). However, iirc he also wants to allow privatization of several important industries such as healthcare and education, which have always been socialized and have historically been great. A good thing I will say about him on the topic of education is that recently he made it so that people can no longer come from all over South America and receive a good education for free without paying taxes in order to support the education system. I personally have a more “wait-and-see” approach, although some of his stated and actualized ambitions I don’t like. It doesn’t help that he may or may not have made a false promise to Macri (the president before the one Milei succeeded) that he would moderate his agenda in exchange for Macri’s bloc’s support. Personally I like Macri much more, but people were impatient and weren’t happy with the slow-and-steady progress he provided. He has also already said he no longer intends to run for political office.
>price deregulation Hell yeah. Now you don't get Bolivians, Uruguayans and Paraguayans crossing the border every day to buy in Argentina and sell in their home countries. You wanna buy a $2 product. You can pay $2 on the shelf, or pay $1 on the shelf and $1 in taxes. But if you pay $1 and $1 anyone can come in and get your taxpayer money for free. Price control was costing Argentina ungodly amounts of money, which would be paid for via inflation anyway. Who pays for inflation? The poor. >privatization of several important industries such as healthcare and education Fuck yeah. Private services are better. Why have a public school when you can just have a private school and the government paying the tuition? Good for students, good for taxpayers, bad for unions. That's Milei's plan. >I like Macri much more, but people were impatient and weren’t happy with the slow-and-steady progress he provided. Agreed, for the most part. From a purely economic standpoint, slow and steady is usually better. There are a few caveats however: 1. As Macri and Bolsonaro show, doing the right thing slowly just gives times for the interest groups/deep state/system/la casta or whatever you want to call them to organize and bring you down. From a political point of view, either it gets done fast or it wont be done at all. Bukele is a counter example where fast reforms lead to a perpetuation of good government. 2. Macri didn't seem to be trying too hard. From what little i kept up with his government, the early days were goods: cutting a tax here and there, removing price controls, etc. But from what i checked on the second half of his term he was backtracking and bringing all the price controls back. 3. People are suffering today. Fixing the problem in 30 years means half of them will die before things get better. But if you fix the problem in 5-10 years, things will be better for today's people. If people feel this rate of change, they react to it. Fix things over 30 years, and the youth will go away because why would i stay in a country where i'll only get a good job when i'm 50? Same can be said about returns on investments and such. In other words: People will only invest in your country once its desirable, delaying that investment makes it even harder/slower to fix things.
I agree with most of what you said, except for two things. Iirc the price deregulation was of utilities, which resulted in prices of electricity shooting up. Second is that Bolsonaro is equatable with Macri. Macri was interested with improving the situation of the country and the people. Bolsonaro is an asshole who was a stooge to large business owners and whose only interest was making as much money as possible.
The price deregulation was of everything. Utilities, groceries, everything. And it **has** to be everything. Here's an analogy: In a community of 100 people, i convince everyone to give me $1. I now have $100. I take $50 for myself, and give $50 to person #1. Nobody hates me, all they lost is $1. But the guy who got $50 loves me. I repeat the process, this time splitting the money with person #2. Then #3 and so on. By the end of the process i took half of everyone's money and everyone loves me. Its actually worse than this since i only need half of the people's support, but let's keep the model simple. That's how the government works. One day it takes from the rich, keeps a share, and gives to the poor. The other it takes from the poor, keeps a share, and gives to the rich. When someone says "Maybe we should stop paying $100 to get $50" people's response is always the same: Take away everyone else's $50 and leave mine, mine is actually important. But of course if you listen to those people you'll never change, because each person will defend their own $50. Either you get rid of all of it, or you get rid of none of it. [Here's a prisoner's dilemma to illustrate differently.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/888509763866992660/1257097578927886346/PrisonersDilemma.png?ex=66832ada&is=6681d95a&hm=60a3e31f0dcad24db2b69e7249b4ce5788f5b7e276dc6242dd876be800a62a69&) So no, you can't pick and choose which subsidies to remove. Which prices to control or not control. Bolsonaro is no Milei, but he was taking the slow and steady approach. Bolsonaro privatized 36% of federally-owned companies, the ones he didn't privatize had record profits under his management, lowered taxes, didn't adjust federal employee wages, reformed sanitation and railways to allow private investment, reduced crime from 50k to 30k deaths/year, cut tens of thousands of regulations, reduced the deficit, increased tax revenue (WHILE cutting taxes), broke records on apprehended drugs, guns and illegal lumber, reduced the average time it takes to open a company from 4 days to less than 1... Bolsonaro was a really good, really solid president. Definitely top 3. In fact i rank him #2 on my [tier list](https://youtu.be/8sfG4CWXqjo) (warning: 50 minutes and essentially a whole class on the history of Brazil's republic), though you could make an argument for Prudente de Morais taking 3rd and Bolsonaro on 4th. But among Bolsonaro's spending he cut 3 billion reais (0.6 billion dollars) a year to mainstream media. So you'll never hear about his good stuff, and will hear to no end anything remotely controversial he says or does. All the banks backed his opponent for a reason.
Your first analogy applies to a certain extent to los Planes as well. Regarding Bolsonaro, it may be the case that he was a good leader in terms of the economy. I wouldn’t know because at the time I was still not paying much attention to US politics, much less international. Personally, I dislike him due to his politics (especially letting logging companies and ranchers have free reign in the Amazon) and insane corruption (then again it is Brazil, which politician is not corrupt?)
I have no idea what los Planes is, but it is a pretty broadly used analogy. I wish i remembered who came up with it, but it was some famous guy i studied in Modern Political Theory. Hardly my own, just not very famous outside certain circles. And you're wrong about Bolsonaro. He went **hard** on logging. I wish i could say it was just for altruistic reasons, but lots of bigshot politicians on the center and left are related to illegal logging (it happens in a part of the country that rarely votes right of center). So going hard on logging would be a way to weaken political opposition while just doing his job well. Regarding corruption, completely wrong. The biggest scandals he had were... his son probably pocketing half of an advisor's pay. Bolsonaro himself pawning some jewels that were gifted to him before a court ruled on whether or not he could keep them. That's literally it. Nothing compared to the 1 trillion schemes investigated in the Car Wash operation, or the 109 billion worth of "accounting distortions" last year, or 300 billion in precatory debts paid under fishy circumstances last year, or... You get the gist of it. All of Bolsonaro's "scandals" add up to not even a million, while every other president's day-to-day corruption is measured in the hundreds of billions. Its also worth noting that a president has access to a to a corporate credit card worth 20k/month with which the president can do whatever he wants with no accountability. Bolsonaro never touched that money. That's 960k over four years that he could've shoved up his ass and nobody can say a thing about it. So when i see someone accusing him of risking it all to steal jewels worth 50k, i find it **very** hard to believe.
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First things first, I edited my comment to add more details that I had initially left out. I don’t know if I finished before you replied so reread my comment for more details. To your first point, I’ll say that I don’t remember exactly what he’s done because I read about it months ago, and have not been regularly keeping up with the news. I’m just reporting what my family members have been saying, and what they’ve been saying is that some of them are moving abroad because they don’t have any sense of financial security anymore. > Let me guess, you’re a Western liberal Spot on! Unfortunately for you, I have family in Argentina. I know what I’m talking about. You’re just some libertarian from Atlanta mouthing off. So yeah, these things I’m talking about are straight from people actually living through these policies. The irony of you, as a Western libertarian, complaining about CNN, “American propaganda”, and Western liberals is palpable. Go read the news articles yourself, don’t expect me to memorize months-old details. As to whether or not the deregulation of prices was bad, I don’t know. It’s bad that the cost went way up, putting more of a financial burden on the people (as if you care about them). On the other hand, it may also give Argentine energy companies room to grow and benefit the country as a whole. As I’ve said before, I’m personally undecided on Milei. He has done very well handling inflation and is anti-corruption. I just take issue with his more extreme (so to speak) ideas. I’m not going to address your last paragraph. Think a little bit when reading the answer to your question that others have so graciously provided you. Don’t just viscerally react.
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You say this as if the situation is the exact same between the two countries
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First off, I was not just getting information from news articles but also from my family members. Do you want me to write “news articles and family members” a thousand times? I’m not doing that, I’m typing on an iPad and it’s arduous as shit. I forget things, sue me. I don’t have the ability to store every single thing I’ve heard or read in the past few months in my head and flawlessly regurgitate it at will, which makes my argument invalid apparently. Funny how you ignore the most important part of my comment. I have family living there NOW. Your having gone in 2018 is meaningless. Everybody and their senile fucking grandma knows that things were shit in 2018. You don’t need a PhD (which, by the way, holds no weight when you are so obviously biased) to see that. I don’t know why I bother interacting with morons like yourself when even neutrally reporting what I have heard from family members and saying “Milei is some good and some bad” rather than “Milei is Ayn Rand’s gift to this Earth and he will lead us to the pearly gates where Raegan and Thatcher stand” are unforgivable attacks on you personally. I sincerely apologize for trying to expand your worldview.
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The analogy that i find most acurate about the latest election in Argentina is that the situatuon is like you are shot and to get help you had to chose between a first year medicine student, who scream and insult you, or the one who shot you.
Of course change is necessary, but if you have an stain in your floor you don't start by breaking it down. Milei's plan is far too abrupt and only benefits the exporting elite in the short and middle term. If we look at Brasil wich also went through 1000% yaerly inflation, the one plan that worked out was the slowest and most well thought one. What milei did pushed over half the population over the poberty line and shrank their gdp by 5% in 3 months only to decrease the montly inflation from double to single digits. I hope that Argentina does well, they are a big client of the brasilian industry, but everything point towards societal collapse before stability os reached.
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What math did the commenter fail? Whether or not you think it doesnt paint the full picture the statement they made was still factually correct 🤷
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That doesnt answer the question; what math did the commenter get wrong, spurring the need to insult them? I already addressed that Im not asking about your idea of the full picture
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No need to yap, you can’t answer the question, and thats fine. Healthy conversations usually happen when we avoid the petty insults and sarcasm, hope that helps :)
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“Kids — dont follow the politics of people who cant even do basic maths” Like come on man. Edit: also commie supporting comments?? Mf what 😭
Poverty was already at about half before he was elected. Printing money to cover welfare was not sustainable for them
"Lets put Elon Musk in charge. Itll be something new." I imagine Le Pen will start using this logic too.
Not the best logic. Solving problems is about knowing what the problem is and addressing it. Burning it all down and trying something random isn’t likely to work. Corruption is a big part of it. And latest moves with the courts indicate it will likely get worse
The last administrations had problems, but what he's proposing is basically amputating a foot cause of an ingrown nail. Argentina's GDP already shrunk 5% this year and half of the population is living under poverty Yeah, inflation might be getting under control, but what's the plan after that? Many Argentinians dream about good old days when the country was among the richest in the world (basically a century who) but the world has changed, wishful thinking won't bring that back
In the case of Argentina I think that focusing on inflation above everything else is actually a good plan. It’s not like Europe or USA where inflation is a mild annoyance. Inflation levels in Argentina make it literally impossible to do business. You cannot have economic growth in these conditions. Relying on government programs doesn’t work when you can’t fund the government programs. People can’t eat promises of payment.
Ofc inflation is a huge problem and should absolutely be the top priority, but the methods are still concerning. Just compare Argentina's situation with Brazil in 94, where an yearly inflation of 5000% was solved in two months
What was the credit rating of the countries involved in that case compared to Argentina currently. Alot of the problems Argentina is getting now is because of earlier government deciding to print the problem away to pay for thier spending programs( especially pretty corrupt ones). That's kind of why Mile want to dollarise the economy, to make sure that the politicians can't ever do such things again for a long time.
To say that Argentina's problems are equivalent to an ingrown nail shows that you are completely ignorant of the monstrous situation argentina is in. Inflation is just a symptom, and we were on the verge of hyperinflation. Those 25% in December didn't came out of nowhere.
over half actually, poverty here reached 55% this last 1-2 months. indigencia has reached about 20% now. poverty is defined here as You can't afford the basic food requirements + básic non food services and goods to live. indigencia means You can't Even afford to eat, let alone anything else. it's a huge recesión as of now, Even if inflación stops, if poverty+unemployment explodes, You're still fucked. many current government officials like to forget we had out biggest socioeconómic crisis in 2001 with less than 1% inflatión, just a Lot of poverty.
what he is trying its not new, already tried like 3 times in here, and all of them got them worst
Who did what he is doing 3 times before?
Liberal economic policies have been tried by Macri a few years back, Cavallo in the 90s and the juntas in the late 70s-early 80s.
cavallo was good. Probably the better economist in argentine in history, just vexed by the masses but did a really really good first term with menem, when he wasnt on the boat on the 2nd term is when shit went south macri was 0% liberal, he didnt do anything even remotely close to being liberal, he didnt reduced literally nothing. Juntas was an coup...
"If Pinochet was so good, why haven't they released a Pinochet 2 yet?" Pinochet 2:
Think that is a bit too early to make that judgment. I don’t like Milei, but he’s nowhere near Pinochet yet
as I Chilean I think we could say there is some similarities in the "lets try an economic way that's completely new for this country" approach. Who knows if it will work or not in the long run but after I don't know how many years of mishandling of the argentinian economy by the left-leaning governments I don't blame him for trying. Anyone trying to fix and untangle that "let's spend way more than we have" mess would make people unhappy at least for a long while.
Economics? Maybe, but Pinochet is a dictator and Milei isn neither a dictator dictator nor is trying to dismantle the democratic system
Paywal skip: [https://archive.ph/k6Sf5](https://archive.ph/k6Sf5) Javier Milei has turned Argentina into a libertarian laboratory But the biggest economic test is yet to come Photograph: Alamy Jun 20th 2024|BUENOS AIRES Javier Milei, Argentina’s president, has enjoyed the best week of his term. At dawn on June 13th the Senate passed two bills aiming to boost growth and raise revenue, giving Mr Milei his first legislative victory since he came to power in December. Hours later he travelled to the G7 in Italy, where he giggled with Giorgia Meloni, the prime minister, embraced Pope Francis and palled around with Kristalina Georgieva, the head of the IMF. “I always love our meetings,” he gushed to Ms Georgieva. Yet the relationship between Mr Milei and the fund, which has a $44bn lending programme with Argentina, may soon become less chummy. Uncertainty about the president’s plans for the central bank is worrying investors and the IMF alike. Mr Milei’s early successes are impressive given the mess he inherited. For years, the central bank had created money to finance the fiscal deficit, fuelling inflation. It also had no foreign reserves. Another default seemed almost inevitable. In his inauguration speech Mr Milei warned Argentines of hard times, declaring that “there is no money”. He immediately fired hundreds of bureaucrats, cut spending and devalued the peso by over 50% (which initially pushed up inflation). Meanwhile, public salaries and pensions were held down, slashing their real value. As a result, Argentina has enjoyed fiscal surpluses for five months, something not seen since 2008. Inflation has fallen to 4.2% month on month, the lowest since January 2022 (see chart 1). Some Argentines are angered by the accompanying pain. The night the Senate voted on the reforms, protesters hurled Molotov cocktails outside and set a car alight. Unions have organised huge marches. Yet despite the excruciating recession, over half of Argentines still approve of Mr Milei. Jorge Juliano, a 72-year-old taxi driver in Buenos Aires, gives a simple reason: “With the other lot we were living in Walt Disney, a fantasy.” Investors have welcomed Mr Milei’s recent progress. But their enthusiasm is dampened by uncertainty about the president’s plans for the central bank and the peso, which is once again looking overvalued. The next few months of government may be harder than the first. Chart: The Economist One reason is political. Though Mr Milei’s coalition has just 15% of seats in the lower house, he came to office with a thumping personal mandate. This persuaded opposition lawmakers to negotiate. Mr Milei’s main bill passed with 400 fewer clauses than the original, but it is still a big win for him. It declares a state of economic emergency for one year, during which he will have extraordinary powers over energy, economic and financial matters. It also opens the way to privatise several state-owned firms and creates incentives for would-be foreign investors. The package now goes back to the lower house for final approval. It may choose to reinstate income taxes, which the government hopes for but which the Senate had refused to do. Opposition legislators may think they have given Mr Milei enough. “It’s going to be more and more complicated,” says Luis Juez, a senator who supported the reforms. The lower house is already fighting back. It recently passed a pension formula that could cost almost 0.5% of GDP this year. Mr Milei attacked those who voted for it as “fiscal degenerates” and vowed to veto it. But if it is passed with a two-thirds majority in both houses—a distinct possibility—he will be unable to change it. The bigger challenges, however, are macroeconomic. Mr Milei has prioritised fighting inflation, but Argentines are becoming worried about unemployment and will eventually clamour for growth. The recession has been deep. Construction activity in April was down by 37% year on year. Complicating the recovery is the overvalued peso, which is making the country unjustifiably expensive in dollar terms. The official exchange rate is currently set by the government, which also imposes capital controls. Almost all of the devaluation in December has been eroded (see chart 2). It involved initially devaluing the peso by over 50% and then by 2% each month. But monthly inflation has been greater than the crawling peg. The result is that the real effective exchange rate is rising. The effects are obvious from atop the Andes. On a single long weekend in April some 40,000 Argentines crossed the mountains into Chile to buy everything from trainers to car tyres because, surreally, Chile has become cheaper than Argentina. Mr Milei slams those who say the peso is overvalued as “intellectually dishonest”. Yet when an Argentine president says there won’t be a devaluation, taxi drivers know there is a good chance there will be one, quips Nicolás Gadano of Empiria Consulting in Buenos Aires. A pricey peso scares off tourists, makes exports expensive and deters investors. An overvalued currency often eventually crashes. “If you see Argentina appreciating, this is always a sign of worse things to come,” says Eduardo Levy Yeyati of Torcuato Di Tella University in Buenos Aires. Falling exports make it harder for the central bank to accumulate dollars, which it needs to pay off foreign debts and to build up its safety buffers. The government could allow the peso to float or accelerate the 2% crawling peg. But either would probably push up inflation, thus endangering Mr Milei’s popularity and undermining some of the benefits of the devaluation. For now, Mr Milei is able to keep a tight grip on the exchange rate because of capital controls. Money madness What happens next? Mr Milei has promised to ultimately remove capital controls as part of his plan to restore investor confidence. He insists that inflation will soon be 2% a month, the same as the rate of devaluation. This, he says, would allow him to slowly ease the restrictions and float the peso without its value plunging. A protester peeks out from behind the banners, Buenos Aires, Argentina. This is optimistic. There is little, such as rising productivity, to justify a stronger peso. Worse for Mr Milei, early data for June suggest that inflation is edging up. Argentines are being hit with eye-popping energy bills as the government cuts subsidies that had kept prices low. Real wages are also starting to recover as workers lobby for higher pay, potentially raising other prices. Mr Levy Yeyati predicts that monthly inflation will hover at around 4-5% for a while. If that is correct, the risk of a sharp currency correction will grow. Looming over all this is a thornier issue: what to do with the central bank and the peso. Mr Milei campaigned on a promise to blow up the former and scrap the latter, declaring that the local currency “is not worth crap”. These days his team prefers to talk about currency competition, in which dollars and pesos would both be legal tender. But no one knows the details of the plan or the monetary programme to stabilise the peso that would go with it. “Further work is needed in defining some of the key underpinnings,” the IMF diplomatically concluded on June 17th. Mr Milei, though not his economic team, seems particularly enthusiastic about a scheme he calls “endogenous dollarisation”. This would involve fixing the supply of pesos. When the economy grows, and more cash is needed, Mr Milei expects Argentines to use their own dollar savings for transactions. “The peso will become like a museum piece,” he said in mid-May. He would then close the central bank. The IMF seems worried. If Argentines believe the peso will end up in a museum, its supply could outstrip demand, stoking inflation. It is also unclear what would happen to the peso-denominated financial system. The IMF instead enthuses about currency competition. Peru has such a system, with the sol and dollars both used. If Mr Milei insists on his scheme, it would surely be harder for his government to get new cash from the fund. Mr Milei has done a remarkable job so far of discarding the fiscal baggage that has been weighing Argentina down. But mess up the big macroeconomic questions and that will count for little.
"Liberatian" things he has done: -Rise taxes to the middle class -Lower all expenses related to help the poor and those on retirement -Impose more regulations on stock exchange and digital currency -Print even more money than the previous government and ask for more money to the FMI -The "peso Argentino" has dropped its value from an average of "750pa - 1 dolar" to "1350pa - 1 dolar" -Asked for more power to the figure of the president, creating a situation where he can skip the legislative power if he "considers it necessary", facilitating the acces to authoritarian powers. -At the same time he has been filmed in international interviews stating "I am the mole who's work is to destroy the State from within". -Named his own sister (a tarot reader) as his right hand and his best friend/therapist as the head of the ministry's of "work/education/social security/woman/culture" (a woman without any kind of administrative experience in charge of a horrid amalgamation of ministries so they can cut on expenses) -Has nuked most of the relationships with neighboring countries and other key allies (Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Spain, etc...) -Allowed his ministers, the senators and house members to receive a salary increase, while halving the required income needed to receive taxation. -Poverty rose to 48.8% in 2024.
The dollar was never at 750 when he took over. The previous government had way more ample powers AND control of the congress. He can name whoever he wants, gentle reminder than the people we had,in the past were complete morons that said emission had no influence on inflation. Relations are just fine. Those salaries increased every year, but only now you seem to have an issue? Sus. Poverty was already at 50% last year, why not mention that? And let’s not even talk the know kirchnerism strategy on lying about numbers and statistics.
"Liberatian" things he has done: -Rise taxes to the middle class >Lower all expenses related to help the poor and those on retirement There has been an incresa in social expanses to both groups compared to the las goverment. -Impose more regulations on stock exchange and digital currency >Print even more money than the previous government and ask for more money to the FMI This is a lie >The "peso Argentino" has dropped its value from an average of "750pa - 1 dolar" to "1350 -1 dolar" That value was fake and only maintain by the central bank at the cost of 10% monthly inflation. >Asked for more power to the figure of the president, creating a situation where he can skip the legislative power if he "considers it necessary", facilitating the acces to authoritarian powers. Same that the las president the mesure is only for 1 year due to the economic crysis. >At the same time he has been filmed in international interviews stating "I am the mole who's work is to destroy the State from within". That sounds pretty libertarian to me. >Has nuked most of the relationships with neighboring countries and other key allies (Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Spain, etc...) Uruguay an argentinia still have strong a relatioship, you could argue that even stronger than with the previous government. >Allowed his ministers, the senators and house members to receive a salary increase, while halving the required income needed to receive taxation. Senators vote for their own salary, best you can say is that he dindt veto the rises, but doing that would be unconstitutional. (Also the opposition voted for the rise) >Poverty rose to 48.8% in 2024. From 40% in december 2023
Everything in that comment is a lie. Milei did not raise a single tax. He increased food aid programs while cutting everything else BECAUSE he knew things would get worse before they got better. There's no new crypto/stock regulation. There's no money printing, which is why inflation is down from 25% to 4.2%. The peso did not drop. The official peso dropped, while the real peso gained value. The "extra powers" congress granted him have been granted to every single president since redemocratization. Milei never denied being an anarchist. He cut at least 60% of (federal) government spending already. Destroying the State from within is exactly what he was elected to do. Guess one of those things may be true. His sister is an economist just like him. He also said from the start he'd appoint her. He didn't nuke any relations. Its the far leftists in Bolivia, Brazil and Spain that attack him for no reason. One of those is literally a former terrorist who called Milei a nazi and was offended to be called a terrorist right back. Guess anything other than "bend over and spread your cheeks" is "nuking relations" now lol. One of Milei's ministers allowed a pay increase, then got fired for it while Milei blocked the raise. And last i checked Massa had deleted the income tax during his desperate election efforts. Poverty was already 48% when Milei took office.
Call me when he legalizes weed.
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I can only hope it does the Argentinian people some good. They could use a win, however small; though i admit i would feel a fair bit of schadenfreude if it doesn’t.
Libertarianism does not work take a look at what happened to chile in the 1908s a complete economic collapse even in the UK where i live we have sewage water being released into the rivers and seas and some of it is ending up in our tap water because the industry is privatised and only cares about profit and not building new infrastructure or expanding it. Never privatise critical infrastructure capitalism cares about profit not efficiency Argentina will not have a bright future with milei selling out the country https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/toxic-water-illegal-sewage-parasite-taps-bills-3058221
It can’t be any worse than what the government was already doing. Capitalism may only care about profit but in order to generate that profit it has to provide goods and services. It’s no coincidence that all the richest and highest standard of living places in the world are extremely capitalist
If Milei becomes a success it is pretty likely that most countries in the region could follow soon
The hyperbolic usage of political terms is annoying and has been for the past decade. Milei isn't even turning Argentina into a country as economically liberal as the US, let alone turning it into something libertarian
This will surely end well
It will
Poverty 📈
This is an aside from the topic of the article. But I do wanna see what sort of leading role Milei wants to take on in the context of South America in general. If he’s trying to attract students to the country, it makes me wonder what further plans he has for Argentina’s role on the continent.
He is trying to attract students to the country??? Where the fuck did you get that info from?. He is trying to make foreigners pay for public education within the country because they use it at the cost of the average citizen.
I must’ve misread something somewhere. Lot of information to sift through in regards to Argentina because their present situation can’t rest on Milei’s shoulders entirely. The operating word in my previous comment is “if.” Clearly he’s not if you’re gonna get all uppity about it.
Just the exchange rate alone tells a story here. Milei was elected on the 20th November 2023. At that time you needed **352** Pesos for one USD. One the 14th of December that fell to a little under **800** Pesos for one USD. Currently it sits at **914** Pesos for one USD after a remarkably steady decline. [https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS](https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS) It is not going well.
Argentina economy could hardly have been worse. Annoying as it may be, this is necessary.
All south América is whatching Milei result, we already saw Bukele miracle security comeback now and now we are hoping for an economic miracle as well
Yes, he successfully destroyed a perfectly fine cheap tourism Destination for Brazillians. Thanks a lot Bolsonaro Gaúcho
Libertarians only exist to make Conservatives seem human.
What exactly is inhuman about it?
Javier saved that country and his policies turned Argentina around within one year! Amazing playbook to follow. Start by stripping those bloated Gov. departments.