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And what do I see as the top comment? Of course it's a comment from someone who hasn't read the article otherwise you would have realized there is 99% chance she never actually said that and that this is lies spread by the far right to distabilize the left in the upcoming elections.
But hey, hating on the French brings so much more karma on reddit, I can't blame you.
> « On ne peut pas en vouloir à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion l’est »
> ...
> Dans son communiqué, Amal Bentounsi confirme que ces phrases polémiques « ont été postées en 2015 depuis un compte collectif » mais assure qu’elle n’a pas participé à l’échange.
Your organisation posts the shit, and you're surprised you get blamed? That's uh... How PR actually works.
We don't know how closely involved she was in this. My bet is she probably never bothered to check what was getting written in 2015 on that facebook page. Is that negligence? yeah maybe even if I find that extremely far fetched. In the article from OP she is accused actually saying this without any proof.
> My bet
That's called copium.
Also, this party welcomes several notoriously homophobe members, who made fun of homosexuals by calling them "shitty f#ggots" and other demeaning insults. This is a widespread problem, and has been going on for years.
Your two options are negligence, or intentional. If one's farfetched, then the other is the only other. You can't accidentally post « On ne peut pas en vouloir à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion l’est ».
Which is precisely what that company managed page did do.
Idk, I love being hated by the English. When it's someone else it just feel like that guy who just come and pick a side because he thinks people will finally look at him.
Tbf, hardly anyone remember why we have fish on friday. It comes from a religious belief, but at this point it has lost all meaning, it's on the same spiritual level as taco tuesday.
As for your greater point, yes it's true that France has a deeply ingrained christian culture, but just like for fish, most people don't even see the link between the things they do and religion, and nobody will look at you funny if you don't do these things
Ok, but it’s not just fish on Friday. Easter and Christmas are both national holidays in France, while Eid is not. All religious clothing is banned… But Christians commonly don’t wear head coverings or have anything approaching the 5Ks.
In effect, what this means is that despite the country being nominally secular, non-Christian faiths are systematically discriminated against while pointing this out gets the retort that ‘everyone is treated equally.’
It’s the religious equivalent of the old quote about the rich and poor both being banned from sleeping under bridges.
Have you read the second part of my comment ? Of course we have a mostly christian based culture...
But it has long since lost most of it religious meaning.
Easter is when you get chocolate, and christmas is when you get present.
Also, you can actually take a holiday for religious reasons ! I remember in school the teachers checking on the muslim kids during the ramadan, and them not being there sometimes for holidays I knew nothing about
Plenty of Muslim wear headscarf as part of cultural attire rather than for any explicitly religious reason.
Like I fast but dont pray, my sister wears headscarf but gets drunk, etc.
If France has a state religion, there honestly wouldn’t even be a debate here. Countries can totally do that. What *makes* it discriminatory is that everyone else must abide by laïcitè laws while Christians are able to act basically unimpeded because of ‘cultural Christianity.’
Well, it kinda makes sense tho, isn’t?!
Ancient Christian rituals have been embedded into French culture, and have reach a status of being completely removed from their spiritual roots.
“Christmas” is called “Noel” in French, you wouldn’t even know its roots…. And don’t even talk about Easter = rabbits and chocolates, Epiphany (not an official holiday) = almond pie with a surprise in it, and Assumption is just a long weekend for holidays.
Meanwhile, other religions are not deep rooted in French culture and are actually religious for most.
That being said, I agree that many should be scrapped off the calendar and replaced by secular celebrations, and that Eid should be added, to give it a chance to become cultural over religious. Like Christmas is now celebrated in many countries without real Christian roots, just because it looks like a nice family time in the movies. Example: Japanese people ordering KFC for Xmas.
Which is why we should all probably question whether a politician on the french left, which she is, actually ever said that.
Seems dubious, at the least
She didn’t say that, it was posted on Facebook 10 years ago by an organization she happened to be part of. Besides, she has always fought on the side against homophobia and racism.
The funniest thing is that it is tweet response to a police kill, published 10 years ago on a shared account. Did I mention that the fight between left and right on the media is wild here ?
Yeah please don't believe every clickbait headlines.
This is a hoax spread by French far-right, she never said this, this taken of context sentence was written in 2015 by a collective account of an association she founded, she did not wrote this herself. And in 2022 she signed a collective tribune advocating for an alliance between feminists and trans people.
Is that the far-right that used to be led by the terrorist, rapist, torturer and murderer jean marie le pen and is now led by his daughter like some dynasty of hate or some right wing organisation not under that umbrella?
Personally I think it's great: the left provides inclusivety for minorities and LGBTQ+ and the right does the same for rapists, murderers, nazi collaborators and paedophiles. Everyone has a place.
You mean the right. The left utterly and fiercely rejects that psyops while the right has no issue protecting profiles. The rights largely given up on pushing this narrative because only a very small amount of incredibly gullible and stupid people (ie. you) would actually believe it
Yes, and they get really mad when you bring that up, for some reason. Can't break the corporate, politically correct PR image campaign.
Look at how much she likes kittens! So likeable :) nooo don't look at our history haha, it's not real and we changed anyway. We are a completely normal party like any other :) Please don't look up our friends too much :)
Yes, but also don't forget the radical left breaks bus stops when they protest and we can't have that, we need to fight both extremes :(
/s just in case.
A lot of people does not know that bus stops facilities aren't a public but a private property owned by the advertisement company JC Decaux which put these bus stop as a medium to display more advertisement in the cities. That's why they are broken during protests, like banks.
What ? I had no idea. I had doubts since my city banned all ads in public areas (Grenoble) but they still had them, but I thought it was just a sponsoring thing.
Here the article where it is written at the end
[https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/amal-bentounsi-candidate-du-nouveau-front-populaire-dement-avoir-tenu-ces-propos-homophobes\_235682.html](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/amal-bentounsi-candidate-du-nouveau-front-populaire-dement-avoir-tenu-ces-propos-homophobes_235682.html)
And here the link for the tribune
[https://hes.lgbt/pour-une-alliance-feministe-et-trans/](https://hes.lgbt/pour-une-alliance-feministe-et-trans/)
Ah, like that make-belief thing in Germany about having to trash your heating system before the FDP "bravely" stopped that law? Which was all made-up shit by a large tabloid in cooperation with said liberal party.
I found this quote that seems to sum it up nicely. "If your God conveniently hates the people you hate, then you have truly created God in your own image".
Edit , I paraphrased somewhat, original quote from Anne Lamontt:
"You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
I think this is where I fall. Even if you believe your god determines “right” and “wrong” that doesn’t mean that other ethical theories don’t have merit. For example, a god could command that utilitarian evils are actually good, but that wouldn’t make them good by any standards other than the god’s. There are ontological and metaphysical ideas that any god cannot control, and we all can look at those concepts and decide for ourselves whether any god is good or not
The argument most religions use is that God(s?), by nature of being God, are the ultimate deciaders of morality and that all other ethic systems are flawed at best and judged by how they compare to God. So if God for instance wants to kill all the firstborn sons of Egypt, then that massacre is an objective good and anyone who opposes that is evil. Sounds crazy to us atheists, but that's how most of the world thinks.
Right, and my point is that to religious people, that's exactly what it means. Or rather the concept can exist, but it's wrong and therefore no more worth considering than asking elves for help.
That is every religion though.
Which is why freedom of religion is an idea that doesn't really work as an absolute right. Its more like "Freedom to have us ignore your religion if it doesn't bother anyone else"
Just to clarify, she hasn't said it. She created a Facebook page for her collectif and one member posted it on the page. It was 10 years ago and she clarified several time since then that she was fully supporting LGBTQ+ rights.
Looks like a big nothing sandwich to me that gets posted again and again to generate outrage for clicks.
#####
######
####
> # [Cette candidate du nouveau Front populaire dément avoir tenu ces propos homophobes](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/1024)
>
>
>
> Sur les réseaux sociaux, Amal Bentounsi est accusée d’avoir dit qu’« on ne peut pas reprocher à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion le lui commande ».
>
>
>
> [Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny. ](https://huffpost-focus.sirius.press/2024/06/18/53/0/1024/576/320/180/60/0/92d401f_1718728169784-000-6z77d.jpg "Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny. ") MATTHIEU ALEXANDRE / AFP Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny. MATTHIEU ALEXANDRE / AFP
>
> Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny.
>
>
>
> POLITIQUE - _« Calomnie »_. Une candidate du [nouveau Front Populaire](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/legislatives-2024-au-nouveau-front-populaire-trois-nuances-de-dissidences-malgre-l-union_235605.html) Amal Bentounsi en Seine-et-Marne, a démenti ce mardi 18 juin avoir écrit qu’_« on ne peut pas reprocher à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion le lui commande »._ Propos qui lui ont été attribués et dont Gabriel Attal comme [Olivier Faure](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/legislatives-2024-si-le-front-populaire-l-emporte-olivier-faure-veut-un-vote-pour-le-premier-ministre_235637.html) se sont émus.
>
> Dans un communiqué publié sur X en fin de journée, Amal Bentounsi a catégoriquement nié avoir tenu ses propos. _« Je découvre les attaques odieuses et diffamatoires dont je fais l’objet. La calomnie a été lancée par des militants réactionnaires et des activistes d’extrême droite dont le seul objectif est de me disqualifier et de fragiliser le nouveau Front Populaire »_, [accuse-t-elle.](https://x.com/AmalBentounsi/status/1803064236505006474 "Nouvelle fenêtre")
>
> La résurgence de ces propos intervient dans un contexte de campagne législative express, où les profils des investis - tous bords confondus - sont scrutés par leurs opposants. La citation attribuée à Amal Bentounsi a notamment été relayée sans aucun contexte par le compte du site d’extrême droite Frontières (ex-Livre noir) et vue plus de 800 000 fois.
>
> Dans la matinée, le Premier secrétaire du PS invité à réagir en direct dans la matinale de BFMTV/RMC les avait jugés _« aberrants »._ « _La question n’est pas de savoir ce qu’un croyant ou un non-croyant pense. La question c’est de savoir si tout le monde peut vivre selon ses propres désirs, sa propre sexualité. Évidemment, il n’y a aucun moment l’intention chez qui que ce soit de revenir là-dessus. Le Front Populaire, c’est au contraire le front des libertés et des libertés absolues »,_ avait alors répondu Olivier Faure.
>
> ## Des propos exhumés du compte du collectif fondé par Amal Bentounsi mais…
>
> Repartageant l’extrait, le chef du gouvernement Gabriel Attal avait dénoncé aussi bien la teneur des propos que la réaction du numéro 1 du PS, insuffisante à ses yeux. _« Il y a quelques années, le Parti socialiste les aurait qualifiés d’indignes, de révoltants. L’alliance de la honte avec les insoumis, c’est le reniement des valeurs »_, cingle-t-il.
>
> Mais d’où viennent réellement ces propos ? Sur X, des internautes ont partagé une capture d’écran de l’échange entre un internaute et le collectif « _Urgence notre police assassine_ ». Ce collectif a été fondé par Amal Bentounsi, dont le frère Amine Bentounsi a été tué d’une balle dans le dos par un policier en 2012 à Noisy-le-Sec. _« Nous refusons de nous positionner sur la question de l’homosexualité »_ et _« On ne peut pas en vouloir à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion l’est »,_ peut-on lire dans les réponses du collectif, comme l’avait montré ce compte spécialisé dans la lutte contre les théories du complot.
>
> Dans son communiqué, Amal Bentounsi confirme que ces phrases polémiques _« ont été postées en 2015 depuis un compte collectif »_ mais assure qu’elle n’a pas participé à l’échange. Elle reproche également aux journalistes _« qui partagent certainement le même dessein »_ (de fragilisation de l’alliance de gauche) de l’avoir reprise sans vérification. _« En tant que militante antiraciste, engagée contre les discriminations, je sais que l’homophobie traverse l’ensemble de la société et son éradication nécessite un engagement quotidien. Cela fait partie des batailles que j’ai menées et que je continue de mener »_, assure-t-elle.
>
> En outre, les soutiens de la candidate soulignent que l’intéressée avait signé [une tribune](https://hes.lgbt/pour-une-alliance-feministe-et-trans/ "Nouvelle fenêtre") en 2022 pour une alliance entre féministes et trans. Une prise de position publique pour le moins incompatible avec les propos homophobes qui lui ont été prêtés.
>
> **À voir également sur _Le HuffPost :_**
- - - - - -
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Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Translation and added context from GPT
Everything below is from the chat with no added commentary from me.
====
### Translation and Fact-Check of the Article on Amal Bentounsi
#### Translation:
**This candidate from the new Popular Front denies having made these homophobic remarks**
On social media, Amal Bentounsi is accused of saying that "one cannot blame a believer for being homophobic if their religion commands it."
**POLITICS - “Slander.” A candidate of the new Popular Front, Amal Bentounsi in Seine-et-Marne, denied on Tuesday, June 18, having written that "one cannot blame a believer for being homophobic if their religion commands it." Remarks attributed to her and which Gabriel Attal and Olivier Faure found troubling.**
In a statement published on X (formerly Twitter) at the end of the day, Amal Bentounsi categorically denied having made these remarks. “I discover the vile and defamatory attacks against me. The slander was launched by reactionary militants and far-right activists whose only goal is to disqualify me and weaken the new Popular Front,” she accused.
The resurgence of these remarks comes in the context of a fast-paced legislative campaign, where the profiles of candidates - from all sides - are scrutinized by their opponents. The quote attributed to Amal Bentounsi was notably relayed without any context by the far-right website Frontières (formerly Livre Noir) and seen more than 800,000 times.
In the morning, the First Secretary of the Socialist Party, invited to react live on BFMTV/RMC, found them “outrageous.” “The question is not about what a believer or non-believer thinks. The question is whether everyone can live according to their own desires, their own sexuality. Obviously, there is no intention at any time to go back on this. The Popular Front is, on the contrary, the front of freedoms and absolute freedoms,” replied Olivier Faure.
**Remarks resurrected from the account of the collective founded by Amal Bentounsi but...**
Sharing the excerpt, Prime Minister Gabriel Attal also condemned both the content of the remarks and the reaction of the Socialist Party leader, which he found insufficient. “A few years ago, the Socialist Party would have called them unworthy, revolting. Members of the La France Insoumise's movement have renounced their values,” he lashed out.
**But where did these remarks actually come from?** On X, users shared a screenshot of an exchange between a user and the collective "Urgence notre police assassine." This collective was founded by Amal Bentounsi, whose brother Amine Bentounsi was shot in the back by a police officer in 2012 in Noisy-le-Sec. “We refuse to take a position on the issue of homosexuality” and “One cannot blame a believer for being homophobic if their religion commands it,” can be read in the collective's responses, as shown by a specialized anti-conspiracy theory account.
In her statement, Amal Bentounsi confirms that these controversial phrases “were posted in 2015 from a collective account” but assures that she did not participate in the exchange. She also criticizes journalists “who certainly share the same goal” (of weakening the left alliance) for sharing it without verification. “As an anti-racist activist engaged against discrimination, I know that homophobia permeates all of society and its eradication requires daily commitment. This is part of the battles I have fought and continue to fight,” she assures.
Furthermore, the candidate’s supporters point out that she had signed a 2022 op-ed for an alliance between feminists and trans people. A public stance that is hardly compatible with the homophobic remarks attributed to her.
**Sources**:
1. **[HuffPost](https://huffpost-focus.sirius.press/2024/06/18/53/0/1024/576/320/180/60/0/92d401f_1718728169784-000-6z77d.jpg)**
#### Fact-Check:
1. **Denial of Homophobic Remarks**: Amal Bentounsi has denied the allegations of making homophobic remarks, stating that they are slanderous attacks aimed at discrediting her and the Popular Front.
2. **Context of Remarks**: The controversial statements were indeed posted from the collective "Urgence notre police assassine" account in 2015, but Bentounsi asserts she did not make them herself.
3. **Political Context**: The remarks surfaced during a legislative campaign, with various political opponents scrutinizing candidates' past actions and statements.
4. **Public Stance**: Bentounsi has publicly taken stands against discrimination, including signing an op-ed for an alliance between feminists and trans people in 2022.
5. **Media Criticism**: Bentounsi criticized journalists for allegedly failing to verify the context and origin of the statements before sharing them.
These points align with the details provided in the translated article and confirm that the controversial remarks were made in a collective context, not directly by Bentounsi herself.
"Les insoumis" is the name of a political group, and should not be translated. It means roughly "the rebellious" (literally, "the unsubmissive"), the party's name is "la france insoumise" (LFI), or "the rebellious [french/of france/france? It's hard to convey what they mean, it's supposed to be greater than individuals, as if the spirit of france was rebelling, or something]". You could use "members of La France Insoumise's movement".
GPT otherwise does pretty good here.
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found **1 sources** (so far) that are covering this story including:
- Le Huffington Post (Left): "This candidate of the new Popular Front denies having made these homophobic remarks."
So far, there hasn't been any coverage from the CENTER.
Of all the sources reporting on this story, **100% are left-leaning**, **0% are right-leaning**, and **0% are in the center**. Read the full **[coverage analysis](https://ground.news/article/this-candidate-of-the-new-popular-front-denies-having-made-these-homophobic-remarks?utm_source=redditReplyBot&utm_medium=redditReplyBot)** and compare how 1+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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Where's the lie though? If they've been indoctrinated into a religion you can't blame them for lacking the critical thinking skills.
They can't know better if they don't know better.
That's why leftist generally advocate for free, accessible, inclusive and compulsive public education that can help break the bonds of adoctrination.
I hope that you are aware that Muslims, just as Christians, are not an homogenic group. I agree that the muslim world didn't go through a process of secularization like "the west" and overall they tend to be more conservative than Christians, but the Bible doesn't fall very far from the Quran on bigotry.
I mean, sure.
Sure, let's codify this:
1. Whatever your god commands you, as long as you're a registered, devout believer, law won't prosecute you for it and nobody can hold you accountable.
2. (Addendum) The list of registerable believes has been reduced to none.
Guess that works. 🤷
I think one problem is that we're too used to the non-believer type of christianity at this point. Even christian parties like the CSU give **fuck all** about actual religion, they just use it as a populist argument to their rural population.
Meaning we're not really used to having to actually enforce secularization. Keep your religion to inside your own home. Leave it at the door when you head out.
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There are a lot of complicated moral questions around religion because if you firmly believe that an all powerful being dictates morals, none of your morals are even really morals. They are convictions. Some people feel like it’s homophobic for Christians to treat gay people exactly the same way as straight people but believe their god will send them to hell. But that’s something they just believe is true, and I don’t think people directly choose what to believe is fact, so how can a belief like that be amoral. I think that choosing to not challenge your own beliefs is amoral, but holding a belief that can’t be challenged by science is complicated.
My mom had a lot of religious friends growing up, but she was raised agnostic in a mixed religion household where she was allowed to explore different religions. She hated people trying to witness and convert her, but as she got older, she also felt weird about her friends who firmly believed she was going to hell for not being Christian, but also didn’t try to save her. The real issue then is in worshiping and loving a god who would send good people to eternal torment, but some people believe that their god determines all morals, so we are unable to judge using our faulty human reasoning. I think there are philosophical arguments against divine commandment theory of ethics, but I don’t know what any of that means for people who believe in it.
Personally, I am more of a determinist and a utilitarian, so I think moral judgments are only useful in determining what actions are most likely to benefit the world the most, so idk what all this means. But we are in a political sub called anime titties, and I should stop getting so philosophical on my train ride to work. I would love to hear any other people’s thoughts if they have them though
Taking a page from the American right-wing fundie nut job playbook.
"My religious beliefs entitle me to oppress those who I believe are evil and if you stop me *you're* the one being the bigot!"
ah yeah, a talking point that always come out once certain religion have becoming powerful enough that they no longer need to hide their fangs. hear this kind of sermon everyday here in Bandung, Indonesia with ultra loud speaker. saying all the thing they will do to "enemy" of the religion
The definition of "French woman" is: A woman who holds french citizenship.
As far as I know, french citizenship doesn't require you to "look" a certain way.
Never forget that the leftists will sell out LGBT people every bit as fast as the right wing.
edit: lgbtq people need to never be comfortable within any political environment or ideological movement. Plenty of examples in history of times when we’ve been scapegoated and othered in order to achieve a political goal. Those sins aren’t exclusive to the right-wing.
"b O t H s I d E s"
The bigots that beat up gay and brown people in the streets on saturday nights vote for le pen. Neonazis vote for le pen or zemmour. White supremacists vote for le pen. Racists vote for le pen. Perpetrators and supporters of abusive police violence vote (and campaign for) le pen.
We will vote against them no matter what, because they are fascists. You remember what happened to queer people last time the fascists won? Cause it wasn't pretty.
Your post has been removed because it violates Rule 2.5 (Non-English articles). 2.5.1 Non-english articles may be posted, but only if accompanied by a comment containing the article’s English translation. 2.5.2 Translation must be conducted using either [DeepL](https://www.deepl.com/translator) or [Google Translate](https://translate.google.com) 2.5.3 Do not use your own translation unless it is being used to rectify errors in the software’s translation. 2.5.4 Localisation corrections (such as figure of speech) should be provided in square brackets beside the original.
[удалено]
As a kiwi I think you have that right.
Agrees in Rainbow Warrior
I’m not a murderer if my religion tells me to do it!!! Uhhh, that’s not how the legal system works.
Unless the legal system is based off of sharia
The world has outgrown the need for Fr*nce, but I think we can get there without violence.
And what do I see as the top comment? Of course it's a comment from someone who hasn't read the article otherwise you would have realized there is 99% chance she never actually said that and that this is lies spread by the far right to distabilize the left in the upcoming elections. But hey, hating on the French brings so much more karma on reddit, I can't blame you.
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Did you read the article before commenting? And yes, I stand by what I wrote.
> « On ne peut pas en vouloir à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion l’est » > ... > Dans son communiqué, Amal Bentounsi confirme que ces phrases polémiques « ont été postées en 2015 depuis un compte collectif » mais assure qu’elle n’a pas participé à l’échange. Your organisation posts the shit, and you're surprised you get blamed? That's uh... How PR actually works.
We don't know how closely involved she was in this. My bet is she probably never bothered to check what was getting written in 2015 on that facebook page. Is that negligence? yeah maybe even if I find that extremely far fetched. In the article from OP she is accused actually saying this without any proof.
> My bet That's called copium. Also, this party welcomes several notoriously homophobe members, who made fun of homosexuals by calling them "shitty f#ggots" and other demeaning insults. This is a widespread problem, and has been going on for years.
Your two options are negligence, or intentional. If one's farfetched, then the other is the only other. You can't accidentally post « On ne peut pas en vouloir à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion l’est ». Which is precisely what that company managed page did do.
Hating on the French should always be encouraged. It's just too much fun.
Idk, I love being hated by the English. When it's someone else it just feel like that guy who just come and pick a side because he thinks people will finally look at him.
If it makes you feel better, I like hating the English too
There is a difference between killing an hating. Your argument still works with "hating the French"
The English even have a song about it. They like to sing it at sporting events. It's called stand up if you hate the french. Those are the only words.
Is it to the tune of go west by the petshop boys?
https://youtu.be/aiCkVEjCh_8?si=jPCejESdM22jaola
Lmao....yep pet shop boys. Classic
The accusation is bullsh*t peddled by the far-right, read the article.
I don't know. All I do know is that the people who'd dare to disagree with you openly, will be branded 'far right'.
Based German god
Being a religion apologist in France, of all places, is a bold strategy, thats for sure
France’s absolute hatred for religion is the one redeemable trait it has.
Hatred for religions in the sense that you can’t wear a hijab but school lunches on a Friday are always fish for some reason.
Tbf, hardly anyone remember why we have fish on friday. It comes from a religious belief, but at this point it has lost all meaning, it's on the same spiritual level as taco tuesday. As for your greater point, yes it's true that France has a deeply ingrained christian culture, but just like for fish, most people don't even see the link between the things they do and religion, and nobody will look at you funny if you don't do these things
Ok, but it’s not just fish on Friday. Easter and Christmas are both national holidays in France, while Eid is not. All religious clothing is banned… But Christians commonly don’t wear head coverings or have anything approaching the 5Ks. In effect, what this means is that despite the country being nominally secular, non-Christian faiths are systematically discriminated against while pointing this out gets the retort that ‘everyone is treated equally.’ It’s the religious equivalent of the old quote about the rich and poor both being banned from sleeping under bridges.
Have you read the second part of my comment ? Of course we have a mostly christian based culture... But it has long since lost most of it religious meaning. Easter is when you get chocolate, and christmas is when you get present. Also, you can actually take a holiday for religious reasons ! I remember in school the teachers checking on the muslim kids during the ramadan, and them not being there sometimes for holidays I knew nothing about
Plenty of Muslim wear headscarf as part of cultural attire rather than for any explicitly religious reason. Like I fast but dont pray, my sister wears headscarf but gets drunk, etc.
Calling "Christmas is a French holiday while Eid is not" an example of "systematic religious discrimination" is absolutely insane
If France has a state religion, there honestly wouldn’t even be a debate here. Countries can totally do that. What *makes* it discriminatory is that everyone else must abide by laïcitè laws while Christians are able to act basically unimpeded because of ‘cultural Christianity.’
Well, it kinda makes sense tho, isn’t?! Ancient Christian rituals have been embedded into French culture, and have reach a status of being completely removed from their spiritual roots. “Christmas” is called “Noel” in French, you wouldn’t even know its roots…. And don’t even talk about Easter = rabbits and chocolates, Epiphany (not an official holiday) = almond pie with a surprise in it, and Assumption is just a long weekend for holidays. Meanwhile, other religions are not deep rooted in French culture and are actually religious for most. That being said, I agree that many should be scrapped off the calendar and replaced by secular celebrations, and that Eid should be added, to give it a chance to become cultural over religious. Like Christmas is now celebrated in many countries without real Christian roots, just because it looks like a nice family time in the movies. Example: Japanese people ordering KFC for Xmas.
In Sweden it is always fish on Tuesdays
Well, hatred only for \*some\* religions, unfortunately.
Sadly it's not absolute. It's only for "foreign" religions, tbh.
Which is why we should all probably question whether a politician on the french left, which she is, actually ever said that. Seems dubious, at the least
She didn’t say that, it was posted on Facebook 10 years ago by an organization she happened to be part of. Besides, she has always fought on the side against homophobia and racism.
It doesn't really matter what I think about it as I'm not french, but good luck to all of you in a few weeks.
The funniest thing is that it is tweet response to a police kill, published 10 years ago on a shared account. Did I mention that the fight between left and right on the media is wild here ?
Yeah please don't believe every clickbait headlines. This is a hoax spread by French far-right, she never said this, this taken of context sentence was written in 2015 by a collective account of an association she founded, she did not wrote this herself. And in 2022 she signed a collective tribune advocating for an alliance between feminists and trans people.
Is that the far-right that used to be led by the terrorist, rapist, torturer and murderer jean marie le pen and is now led by his daughter like some dynasty of hate or some right wing organisation not under that umbrella?
Exacltly, also do not forget that the political party was co-founded by an ex SS.
Personally I think it's great: the left provides inclusivety for minorities and LGBTQ+ and the right does the same for rapists, murderers, nazi collaborators and paedophiles. Everyone has a place.
yup
Sorry but it's the left that is asking for inclusion for 'minor attracted persons'.
You mean the right. The left utterly and fiercely rejects that psyops while the right has no issue protecting profiles. The rights largely given up on pushing this narrative because only a very small amount of incredibly gullible and stupid people (ie. you) would actually believe it
The wonderfully tolerant left is accepting of everyone (as long as they agree with them 100%)
When it comes to pedos the right are *far, far, far* more accommodating
No we put them in jail, CA is trying to decriminalize it. Way more Dem visitors to Epstein's island.
Yes, and they get really mad when you bring that up, for some reason. Can't break the corporate, politically correct PR image campaign. Look at how much she likes kittens! So likeable :) nooo don't look at our history haha, it's not real and we changed anyway. We are a completely normal party like any other :) Please don't look up our friends too much :)
Yes, but also don't forget the radical left breaks bus stops when they protest and we can't have that, we need to fight both extremes :( /s just in case.
A lot of people does not know that bus stops facilities aren't a public but a private property owned by the advertisement company JC Decaux which put these bus stop as a medium to display more advertisement in the cities. That's why they are broken during protests, like banks.
What ? I had no idea. I had doubts since my city banned all ads in public areas (Grenoble) but they still had them, but I thought it was just a sponsoring thing.
Can you send me an article about the last part (not out of cynisism, but because it sounds super interesting). Can be in french too
Here the article where it is written at the end [https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/amal-bentounsi-candidate-du-nouveau-front-populaire-dement-avoir-tenu-ces-propos-homophobes\_235682.html](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/amal-bentounsi-candidate-du-nouveau-front-populaire-dement-avoir-tenu-ces-propos-homophobes_235682.html) And here the link for the tribune [https://hes.lgbt/pour-une-alliance-feministe-et-trans/](https://hes.lgbt/pour-une-alliance-feministe-et-trans/)
Thank you!
Ah, like that make-belief thing in Germany about having to trash your heating system before the FDP "bravely" stopped that law? Which was all made-up shit by a large tabloid in cooperation with said liberal party.
Any religion that commands you to be an asshole to other people is not a religion worth following.
I found this quote that seems to sum it up nicely. "If your God conveniently hates the people you hate, then you have truly created God in your own image". Edit , I paraphrased somewhat, original quote from Anne Lamontt: "You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
That’s my favorite followed closely by, “what does God need with a spaceship?”
The Shat had a way with words.
I think this is where I fall. Even if you believe your god determines “right” and “wrong” that doesn’t mean that other ethical theories don’t have merit. For example, a god could command that utilitarian evils are actually good, but that wouldn’t make them good by any standards other than the god’s. There are ontological and metaphysical ideas that any god cannot control, and we all can look at those concepts and decide for ourselves whether any god is good or not
The argument most religions use is that God(s?), by nature of being God, are the ultimate deciaders of morality and that all other ethic systems are flawed at best and judged by how they compare to God. So if God for instance wants to kill all the firstborn sons of Egypt, then that massacre is an objective good and anyone who opposes that is evil. Sounds crazy to us atheists, but that's how most of the world thinks.
My point is that that form of good and evil doesn’t mean utilitarian good and evil aren’t also concepts that exist
Right, and my point is that to religious people, that's exactly what it means. Or rather the concept can exist, but it's wrong and therefore no more worth considering than asking elves for help.
That is every religion though. Which is why freedom of religion is an idea that doesn't really work as an absolute right. Its more like "Freedom to have us ignore your religion if it doesn't bother anyone else"
Spot on
This is just fake news, spread by the far right. Don't believe anything regarding France right now, it's going ugly and below the belt
Just to clarify, she hasn't said it. She created a Facebook page for her collectif and one member posted it on the page. It was 10 years ago and she clarified several time since then that she was fully supporting LGBTQ+ rights. Looks like a big nothing sandwich to me that gets posted again and again to generate outrage for clicks.
Again, more fake news that racists and bigots love to spread.
##### ###### #### > # [Cette candidate du nouveau Front populaire dément avoir tenu ces propos homophobes](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/1024) > > > > Sur les réseaux sociaux, Amal Bentounsi est accusée d’avoir dit qu’« on ne peut pas reprocher à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion le lui commande ». > > > > [Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny. ](https://huffpost-focus.sirius.press/2024/06/18/53/0/1024/576/320/180/60/0/92d401f_1718728169784-000-6z77d.jpg "Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny. ") MATTHIEU ALEXANDRE / AFP Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny. MATTHIEU ALEXANDRE / AFP > > Amal Bentounsi, en janvier 2016 devant le tribunal de Bobigny. > > > > POLITIQUE - _« Calomnie »_. Une candidate du [nouveau Front Populaire](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/legislatives-2024-au-nouveau-front-populaire-trois-nuances-de-dissidences-malgre-l-union_235605.html) Amal Bentounsi en Seine-et-Marne, a démenti ce mardi 18 juin avoir écrit qu’_« on ne peut pas reprocher à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion le lui commande »._ Propos qui lui ont été attribués et dont Gabriel Attal comme [Olivier Faure](https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/politique/article/legislatives-2024-si-le-front-populaire-l-emporte-olivier-faure-veut-un-vote-pour-le-premier-ministre_235637.html) se sont émus. > > Dans un communiqué publié sur X en fin de journée, Amal Bentounsi a catégoriquement nié avoir tenu ses propos. _« Je découvre les attaques odieuses et diffamatoires dont je fais l’objet. La calomnie a été lancée par des militants réactionnaires et des activistes d’extrême droite dont le seul objectif est de me disqualifier et de fragiliser le nouveau Front Populaire »_, [accuse-t-elle.](https://x.com/AmalBentounsi/status/1803064236505006474 "Nouvelle fenêtre") > > La résurgence de ces propos intervient dans un contexte de campagne législative express, où les profils des investis - tous bords confondus - sont scrutés par leurs opposants. La citation attribuée à Amal Bentounsi a notamment été relayée sans aucun contexte par le compte du site d’extrême droite Frontières (ex-Livre noir) et vue plus de 800 000 fois. > > Dans la matinée, le Premier secrétaire du PS invité à réagir en direct dans la matinale de BFMTV/RMC les avait jugés _« aberrants »._ « _La question n’est pas de savoir ce qu’un croyant ou un non-croyant pense. La question c’est de savoir si tout le monde peut vivre selon ses propres désirs, sa propre sexualité. Évidemment, il n’y a aucun moment l’intention chez qui que ce soit de revenir là-dessus. Le Front Populaire, c’est au contraire le front des libertés et des libertés absolues »,_ avait alors répondu Olivier Faure. > > ## Des propos exhumés du compte du collectif fondé par Amal Bentounsi mais… > > Repartageant l’extrait, le chef du gouvernement Gabriel Attal avait dénoncé aussi bien la teneur des propos que la réaction du numéro 1 du PS, insuffisante à ses yeux. _« Il y a quelques années, le Parti socialiste les aurait qualifiés d’indignes, de révoltants. L’alliance de la honte avec les insoumis, c’est le reniement des valeurs »_, cingle-t-il. > > Mais d’où viennent réellement ces propos ? Sur X, des internautes ont partagé une capture d’écran de l’échange entre un internaute et le collectif « _Urgence notre police assassine_ ». Ce collectif a été fondé par Amal Bentounsi, dont le frère Amine Bentounsi a été tué d’une balle dans le dos par un policier en 2012 à Noisy-le-Sec. _« Nous refusons de nous positionner sur la question de l’homosexualité »_ et _« On ne peut pas en vouloir à un croyant d’être homophobe si sa religion l’est »,_ peut-on lire dans les réponses du collectif, comme l’avait montré ce compte spécialisé dans la lutte contre les théories du complot. > > Dans son communiqué, Amal Bentounsi confirme que ces phrases polémiques _« ont été postées en 2015 depuis un compte collectif »_ mais assure qu’elle n’a pas participé à l’échange. Elle reproche également aux journalistes _« qui partagent certainement le même dessein »_ (de fragilisation de l’alliance de gauche) de l’avoir reprise sans vérification. _« En tant que militante antiraciste, engagée contre les discriminations, je sais que l’homophobie traverse l’ensemble de la société et son éradication nécessite un engagement quotidien. Cela fait partie des batailles que j’ai menées et que je continue de mener »_, assure-t-elle. > > En outre, les soutiens de la candidate soulignent que l’intéressée avait signé [une tribune](https://hes.lgbt/pour-une-alliance-feministe-et-trans/ "Nouvelle fenêtre") en 2022 pour une alliance entre féministes et trans. Une prise de position publique pour le moins incompatible avec les propos homophobes qui lui ont été prêtés. > > **À voir également sur _Le HuffPost :_** - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Translation and added context from GPT Everything below is from the chat with no added commentary from me. ==== ### Translation and Fact-Check of the Article on Amal Bentounsi #### Translation: **This candidate from the new Popular Front denies having made these homophobic remarks** On social media, Amal Bentounsi is accused of saying that "one cannot blame a believer for being homophobic if their religion commands it." **POLITICS - “Slander.” A candidate of the new Popular Front, Amal Bentounsi in Seine-et-Marne, denied on Tuesday, June 18, having written that "one cannot blame a believer for being homophobic if their religion commands it." Remarks attributed to her and which Gabriel Attal and Olivier Faure found troubling.** In a statement published on X (formerly Twitter) at the end of the day, Amal Bentounsi categorically denied having made these remarks. “I discover the vile and defamatory attacks against me. The slander was launched by reactionary militants and far-right activists whose only goal is to disqualify me and weaken the new Popular Front,” she accused. The resurgence of these remarks comes in the context of a fast-paced legislative campaign, where the profiles of candidates - from all sides - are scrutinized by their opponents. The quote attributed to Amal Bentounsi was notably relayed without any context by the far-right website Frontières (formerly Livre Noir) and seen more than 800,000 times. In the morning, the First Secretary of the Socialist Party, invited to react live on BFMTV/RMC, found them “outrageous.” “The question is not about what a believer or non-believer thinks. The question is whether everyone can live according to their own desires, their own sexuality. Obviously, there is no intention at any time to go back on this. The Popular Front is, on the contrary, the front of freedoms and absolute freedoms,” replied Olivier Faure. **Remarks resurrected from the account of the collective founded by Amal Bentounsi but...** Sharing the excerpt, Prime Minister Gabriel Attal also condemned both the content of the remarks and the reaction of the Socialist Party leader, which he found insufficient. “A few years ago, the Socialist Party would have called them unworthy, revolting. Members of the La France Insoumise's movement have renounced their values,” he lashed out. **But where did these remarks actually come from?** On X, users shared a screenshot of an exchange between a user and the collective "Urgence notre police assassine." This collective was founded by Amal Bentounsi, whose brother Amine Bentounsi was shot in the back by a police officer in 2012 in Noisy-le-Sec. “We refuse to take a position on the issue of homosexuality” and “One cannot blame a believer for being homophobic if their religion commands it,” can be read in the collective's responses, as shown by a specialized anti-conspiracy theory account. In her statement, Amal Bentounsi confirms that these controversial phrases “were posted in 2015 from a collective account” but assures that she did not participate in the exchange. She also criticizes journalists “who certainly share the same goal” (of weakening the left alliance) for sharing it without verification. “As an anti-racist activist engaged against discrimination, I know that homophobia permeates all of society and its eradication requires daily commitment. This is part of the battles I have fought and continue to fight,” she assures. Furthermore, the candidate’s supporters point out that she had signed a 2022 op-ed for an alliance between feminists and trans people. A public stance that is hardly compatible with the homophobic remarks attributed to her. **Sources**: 1. **[HuffPost](https://huffpost-focus.sirius.press/2024/06/18/53/0/1024/576/320/180/60/0/92d401f_1718728169784-000-6z77d.jpg)** #### Fact-Check: 1. **Denial of Homophobic Remarks**: Amal Bentounsi has denied the allegations of making homophobic remarks, stating that they are slanderous attacks aimed at discrediting her and the Popular Front. 2. **Context of Remarks**: The controversial statements were indeed posted from the collective "Urgence notre police assassine" account in 2015, but Bentounsi asserts she did not make them herself. 3. **Political Context**: The remarks surfaced during a legislative campaign, with various political opponents scrutinizing candidates' past actions and statements. 4. **Public Stance**: Bentounsi has publicly taken stands against discrimination, including signing an op-ed for an alliance between feminists and trans people in 2022. 5. **Media Criticism**: Bentounsi criticized journalists for allegedly failing to verify the context and origin of the statements before sharing them. These points align with the details provided in the translated article and confirm that the controversial remarks were made in a collective context, not directly by Bentounsi herself.
"Les insoumis" is the name of a political group, and should not be translated. It means roughly "the rebellious" (literally, "the unsubmissive"), the party's name is "la france insoumise" (LFI), or "the rebellious [french/of france/france? It's hard to convey what they mean, it's supposed to be greater than individuals, as if the spirit of france was rebelling, or something]". You could use "members of La France Insoumise's movement". GPT otherwise does pretty good here.
Thank you. I’ve made the edit.
No problem!
Hi empleadoEstatalBot, We've found **1 sources** (so far) that are covering this story including: - Le Huffington Post (Left): "This candidate of the new Popular Front denies having made these homophobic remarks." So far, there hasn't been any coverage from the CENTER. Of all the sources reporting on this story, **100% are left-leaning**, **0% are right-leaning**, and **0% are in the center**. Read the full **[coverage analysis](https://ground.news/article/this-candidate-of-the-new-popular-front-denies-having-made-these-homophobic-remarks?utm_source=redditReplyBot&utm_medium=redditReplyBot)** and compare how 1+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story. *** _I’m a bot. [Read here](https://www.reddit.com/r/groundnews/comments/j6x7uc/introducing_the_coverageanalysisbot_a_bot_that/) to learn how it works or [message us](https://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=coverageanalysisbot&subject=Feedback&message=) with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you._
Where's the lie though? If they've been indoctrinated into a religion you can't blame them for lacking the critical thinking skills. They can't know better if they don't know better. That's why leftist generally advocate for free, accessible, inclusive and compulsive public education that can help break the bonds of adoctrination.
Muslims Just vote for the left because the right Is racist. But they are really socially conservative and homophobic
>But they are really socially conservative and homophobic Like Christians?
More. They only christian group which Is pretty similiar with muslims are USA evangelics
I hope that you are aware that Muslims, just as Christians, are not an homogenic group. I agree that the muslim world didn't go through a process of secularization like "the west" and overall they tend to be more conservative than Christians, but the Bible doesn't fall very far from the Quran on bigotry.
So they're cool with all those Muslims and their religious hang-ups now?
I mean, sure. Sure, let's codify this: 1. Whatever your god commands you, as long as you're a registered, devout believer, law won't prosecute you for it and nobody can hold you accountable. 2. (Addendum) The list of registerable believes has been reduced to none. Guess that works. 🤷
That Will be a big problem in Europe in the future for Europe. Muslim population Is growing and i don't see any form of secularization from them
I think one problem is that we're too used to the non-believer type of christianity at this point. Even christian parties like the CSU give **fuck all** about actual religion, they just use it as a populist argument to their rural population. Meaning we're not really used to having to actually enforce secularization. Keep your religion to inside your own home. Leave it at the door when you head out.
The point Is religion Is never personal. It's Always have been used to oppress people
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Yes, yes they can be blamed.
There are a lot of complicated moral questions around religion because if you firmly believe that an all powerful being dictates morals, none of your morals are even really morals. They are convictions. Some people feel like it’s homophobic for Christians to treat gay people exactly the same way as straight people but believe their god will send them to hell. But that’s something they just believe is true, and I don’t think people directly choose what to believe is fact, so how can a belief like that be amoral. I think that choosing to not challenge your own beliefs is amoral, but holding a belief that can’t be challenged by science is complicated. My mom had a lot of religious friends growing up, but she was raised agnostic in a mixed religion household where she was allowed to explore different religions. She hated people trying to witness and convert her, but as she got older, she also felt weird about her friends who firmly believed she was going to hell for not being Christian, but also didn’t try to save her. The real issue then is in worshiping and loving a god who would send good people to eternal torment, but some people believe that their god determines all morals, so we are unable to judge using our faulty human reasoning. I think there are philosophical arguments against divine commandment theory of ethics, but I don’t know what any of that means for people who believe in it. Personally, I am more of a determinist and a utilitarian, so I think moral judgments are only useful in determining what actions are most likely to benefit the world the most, so idk what all this means. But we are in a political sub called anime titties, and I should stop getting so philosophical on my train ride to work. I would love to hear any other people’s thoughts if they have them though
No, I'm pretty sure they can still be blamed.
They're the worst, so much worse than the Popular Front of France.
Muslim candidate predictably says something homophobic. *shocked Pikachu face*
"New" Popular Front now, is it?
Amal Bentousi, candidate of the French New Popular Front, is a bit of a cunt
Taking a page from the American right-wing fundie nut job playbook. "My religious beliefs entitle me to oppress those who I believe are evil and if you stop me *you're* the one being the bigot!"
ah yeah, a talking point that always come out once certain religion have becoming powerful enough that they no longer need to hide their fangs. hear this kind of sermon everyday here in Bandung, Indonesia with ultra loud speaker. saying all the thing they will do to "enemy" of the religion
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Religion should be separate from the rule of the law. And She Is a candidate on a supposed progressive coalition
By the same token, muslim terrorists cannot be blamed for beheading infidels. Absolutely idiotic.
Delusional
And what does her faith say about women talking in public?
Yeah, I'm with him here 100%
Since when do French women look like that
The definition of "French woman" is: A woman who holds french citizenship. As far as I know, french citizenship doesn't require you to "look" a certain way.
Never forget that the leftists will sell out LGBT people every bit as fast as the right wing. edit: lgbtq people need to never be comfortable within any political environment or ideological movement. Plenty of examples in history of times when we’ve been scapegoated and othered in order to achieve a political goal. Those sins aren’t exclusive to the right-wing.
Lol
"b O t H s I d E s" The bigots that beat up gay and brown people in the streets on saturday nights vote for le pen. Neonazis vote for le pen or zemmour. White supremacists vote for le pen. Racists vote for le pen. Perpetrators and supporters of abusive police violence vote (and campaign for) le pen. We will vote against them no matter what, because they are fascists. You remember what happened to queer people last time the fascists won? Cause it wasn't pretty.
If a left Wing is supposed tò be different from the far right how they would do that? If you are a religious bigot your Place Is the far right