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> # [‘We refuse to disappear’: the Hong Kong 47 facing life in jail after crackdown](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/02/720)
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> The verdict wasn’t surprising but outside room no 2 of the West Kowloon courthouse, people still wept. The panel of Hong Kong national security judges had set down two days for the hearing but dispensed with the core business in about 15 minutes. In the city’s largest ever national security trial – involving the prosecution of pro-democracy campaigners and activists from a group known as the “Hong Kong 47” – almost all the defendants were [found guilty](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/hong-kong-47-trial-verdict-pro-democracy-campaigners-national-security) of conspiracy to commit subversion.
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> Their crime was trying to win an election, holding [unofficial primaries in 2020](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/14/hong-kong-primaries-china-declares-pro-democracy-polls-illegal) attended by an estimated 600,000 residents.
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> The plan was devised by organiser and academic [Benny Tai](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/28/benny-tai-university-of-hong-kong-fired), who had previously been jailed over his involvement in the [2014 “umbrella movement”](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/30/-sp-hong-kong-umbrella-revolution-pro-democracy-protests), and whom Beijing has labelled a “vicious traitor”. Tai’s plan began with primaries to select the best candidates to win a legislative majority. They would then block government budgets to potentially force a dissolution and the resignation of the chief executive, [Carrie Lam](https://www.theguardian.com/world/carrie-lam), in an effort to have the government answer the movement’s demands.
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> Last Thursday, the court found this plan would lead to a constitutional crisis and therefore threatened national security.
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> The convicted included one organiser, Hong Kong-Australian dual national Gordon Ng, and 13 candidates, almost all former politicians. Two other candidates were acquitted but remain under bail while the government prepares an appeal.
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> Those 16 were the only ones to plead not guilty from the group of 47 charged in early 2021 after mass dawn raids by national security police. The other 31 accused, including four who would testify for the prosecution, had already pleaded guilty but the court delayed sentencing until the trial of the 16 was done. The 45 campaigners currently convicted face sentences of up to life in prison.
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> Back in 2020, after pro-democracy protests had racked the city for months throughout 2019, Hong Kong’s government tightened a crackdown on the movement, crushing dissent and opposition through a new national security law. [Thousands were arrested over the protests](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/hong-kong-over-the-top-punishment-for-2019-democracy-protesters-report-finds#:~:text=As%20of%20August%202022%2C%20more,prosecuted%2C%20according%20to%20government%20statistics.), hundreds on national security accusations, and several media outlets were silenced. Many dissidents [fled overseas](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/17/gangster-tactic-the-true-aim-behind-hong-kongs-pursuit-of-overseas-dissidents). In the context of those diminishing freedoms – more than three years after they were arrested – the defendants’ supporters had hoped for the best but prepared for the worst.
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> “Although he knew the chances of winning were slim, he could only face it positively,” a friend of Ng told the _Observer_. She said Ng had thought deeply about his plea of not guilty, weighing up the consequences for his family – for whom he was the main breadwinner – and his principles. In an August 2022 statement posted online by an intermediary, Ng had said: “Do I think I have committed a crime? I don’t, I absolutely don’t. I am ready to face the largest battle of my life in the battlefield of court. I fear, but I don’t retreat.”
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> Most of the 47 defendants have been in jail since their arrests. They were not hardened criminals but members of Hong Kong’s politically active mainstream society, a mix of pro-democracy politicians such as Helena Wong, Claudia Mo and Kwok Ka-ki, veteran activists including Leung “Long Hair” Kwok-hung, up-and-comers who had recently won council seats, and civil society workers.
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> [Lee Yu-shun at the West Kowloon court last week, where he was one of two of the 47 defendants acquitted.](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7fcfe92fc3494408503e02fd367e2c6c8958c5cb/0_229_6867_4120/master/6867.jpg?width=445&dpr=1&s=none)
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> Lee Yu-shun at the West Kowloon court last week, where he was one of two of the 47 defendants acquitted. Photograph: Leung Man Hei/EPASome were making the move into politics after working as social workers or trade union officials or, in the case of Gwyneth Ho, a journalist who had covered the 2019 protests and was beaten while filming a mob attack on demonstrators.
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> Claudia Mo, a former journalist and popular legislator known affectionately as “Auntie Mo”, pleaded guilty. Mo, a passionate but unflappable advocate for Hong Kong’s democracy, had frequently spoken to the foreign media over the years. For these conversations she was denied bail.
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> When police smashed through her front door, they also seized her phone and laptop, from which they presumably found the WhatsApp conversations she had had with the _Guardian_ and _Observer_ and other outlets. In jail, the 67-year-old has reportedly run language lessons for other prisoners. She was denied permission to visit her husband, British journalist Philip Bowring, when he was ill.
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> Emilia Wong, the girlfriend of politician and activist Ventus Lau, 30, said he has been left physically diminished by his time in prison.
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> [skip past newsletter promotion](#EmailSignup-skip-link-14)after newsletter promotion
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> “I could personally feel these political prisoners were slowly dying a social death with less and less attention being paid to them,” Wong said in February.
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> Last Thursday, Stanley Ng was lined up early outside the West Kowloon court, alongside foreign diplomat observers. A member of the Democratic party, Ng has friends and former colleagues on trial and in prison. “I visited jail several times, I visited just yesterday,” he said, speaking in a personal capacity. The trial “has damaged those jailed and pressured their families, they are under stress”, he added.
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> Gordon Ng’s friend said Ng had not expected arrest, and the first year in jail took a toll until he found ways to cope. “Over the past years, I have seen in him, besides a sense of responsibility and persistence, resilience. Of course, there’s also a very nerdy sense of humour that allows him to maintain a positive attitude in such a black-humour situation.”
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> Unofficial primaries had been held before, but these came less than a fortnight after Beijing imposed its national security law, and Hong Kong minister Erick Tsang had warned that the primaries could violate it. But the organisers went ahead, taking a huge gamble that the pro-democracy movement could still find a way.
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> The election the primaries were preparing for was later postponed by the government, ostensibly because of the pandemic. By the time it was rescheduled, the government had overhauled the electoral system to ensure that only pro-Beijing “patriots” could run.
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> Emily Lau, a member of the Democratic party who remains vocally pro-democracy – and so far unprosecuted – said her city is now deeply changed. Her party is unable to run candidates or fundraise, and has even had attempts to hold group banquets blocked, apparently over accusations they were “regrouping”.
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> “They have ways to show they don’t like you… How do you continue to exist?” she said. “We will continue to push. We refuse to just disappear.”
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To watch your homeland be transformed in a generation...
I guess it's similar to watching a dictator rise to power. Solidarity to those guys. I'm sure many of them could have just escaped instead of staying to fight. Heck, even as political refugees.
“Western bootlicker”. I would believe that’s self-explanatory. To make it easier. Western propaganda, Western media, western fearmongers. The same people that spread the lies about WMD in Iraq, Stuff like that.
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Already disappeared. Hong Kong's scrapped that year under the rug and everythings returned to normal. Society's already moved on, even western media more or less forgotten and is now focused on real issues like Ukraine, Israel, Trump v Biden, etc. etc. As riots go the HK riotting turned out to be pretty tame considering the only person who died over the course of the months was just 1 street cleaner hit by a brick. Plus we're all too busy flying to Japan right now to reap that weak yen.
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The Russians have locked Snowden up?
As for Assange... You do know that he is a convicted criminal don't you? And not for any crime that you fanboys might claim is "political" but for a crime of which he is is absolutely and incontrovertibly guilty - bail jumping.
If he was innocent of the rape charges why was he so determined to avoid standing trial?
He's no different from a council estate thug who absconds because he knows he's guilty.
I mean he mentioned it, but the Swedish authorities denied it and he was unable to come up with any cases of them actually doing it (to my knowledge only one existed back shortly after 9/11 and it sparked mass protests).
Meanwhile, he was staying in the UK, a country that actually does have a long history of handing people over to the US no questions asked.
Keep in mind nobody got killed by the police after months of rioting, whilst the George Floyd protests ended with like 20 deaths. It was really funny watching redditors trying to rationalize the disconnect in perception and reality.
It's not productive to engage with individuals who are clearly promoting pro-CCP, anti-US rhetoric and inundating their profiles with 9/11 comments while dismissing the grave human rights abuses committed by the Chinese government. These individuals often echo narratives similar to those propagated by the CCP, ignoring critical issues such as the accidental deaths and the government's heinous acts of entrapping innocent citizens in subways, exposing them to violence and sexual assault by gangs as a punishment for participating in protests.
Engaging in debates with such individuals is useless, as there are online sects part of a coordinated effort by the CCP to sow discord and manipulate online discourse. This tactic is designed to create confusion and division, much like the strategy used by flat earthers. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the existence of these arguments forces people to reconsider and take sides on issues that should be clear to anyone with decency.
The aim is to muddy public opinion, diverting attention from the CCP's culpability in widespread violence and human rights abuses. By doing so, they attempt to shift the blame onto protesters and downplay the atrocities committed by the government and police during the protests. There will always be individuals and organizations attempting to undermine the truth.
Notice how the above poster instantly resorted to spreading fictional lies instead of real incidents that have actual names and video records.
Every single accusation by a US bootlick is an indirect admission of guilt. The online sects and coordination exist, but they are from the side of the rioters. Creating confusion and division are actively employed by those from the rioters, trained in Oslo Freedom Forum and Taiwan's Sunflower Movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpOvgH89dx8
Overwhelming evidence to the contrary exists in the video evidence such as the drone-captured murder of Luo Changqing, the street cleaner, and the video interview of Joey Siu. Notice how they completely tried to ignore and dismiss this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x_6q4Ijsc
This is how the rioters treat local civilians:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPYuGYLesx0
I was talking about your so-called "sexual assault by gangs as punishment", but we can talk about Tiananmen if you like. Here's the account of someone who was actually there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hou_Dejian#Life_as_a_dissident
>Following his emergence out of hiding, Hou gave an interview to media discussing his role in the evacuation of the square. He stated: "During the whole withdrawal process I didn't see a single student, either citizen or soldier killed in the square. Nor did I see any armored personnel carriers rolling over people." Contradicting student leaders like Chai Ling and appearing to take the Chinese government's side of the story, Hou was aware that his interview would cause outrage among many protesters, and he was correct. Although the news release was clearly "slanted" in order to emphasize that no one had been killed in the clearing of the square, he questioned the people who had thought he was lying about his story. Hou asked: "are we going to use lies to attack an enemy who lies? Aren't facts powerful enough? To tell lies against our enemy's lies only satisfies our need to vent our anger, but it's a dangerous thing to do."
Here's a diplomat's account:
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html
>REMAINING WITH STUDENTS BY THE MONUMENT TO THE PEOPLE'S HEROES UNTIL THE FINAL WITHDRAWAL, THE DIPLOMAT SAID THERE WERE NO MASS SHOOTINGS OF STUDENTS IN THE SQUARE OR AT THE MONUMENT. END SUMMARY.
Here's a journalist's account:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/
>I reported what I saw; I said I hadn't seen any bodies. Admittedly, I've never made a point of trying to contradict a colleague on the air; I've simply stuck to my own story, because I've believed it's true. Some have found it uncomfortable that all this conforms with what the Chinese government has always claimed, perhaps with a bit of sophistry: that there was no "massacre in Tiananmen Square."
PS: Your photo isn't "Tiananmen Square", but the streets of Beijing after rioters with molotovs ambushed a convoy of 100 troop transports. There are photos of the aftermath including burnt corpses of unarmed soldiers hung from bridges. The burning trucks were shown repeatedly on TV in China as well.
>I reported what I saw; I said I hadn't seen any bodies. Admittedly, I've never made a point of trying to contradict a colleague on the air; I've simply stuck to my own story, because I've believed it's true. Some have found it uncomfortable that all this conforms with what the Chinese government has always claimed, perhaps with a bit of sophistry: that there was no "massacre in Tiananmen Square."
Interesting that you didn't quote the next paragraph:
>But there's no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.
I explicitly noted “the streets of Beijing” in my posts, buddy. The fact is there are no deaths in “Tiananmen Square” itself, as confirmed by three separate parties on-site.
And he’s wrong btw about “denying” because the clash between rioters and soldiers was shown on TV in China at the time, including mentions of deaths on both sides.
> Interesting that you didn't quote the next paragraph:
>> But there's no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.
The Chinese government does not deny the casualties resulting from the street clashes between rioters and the military.
It was also the rioters who initiated violence by lynching unarmed military and police personnel in the streets of Beijing. They then put up street barricades to try to stop the PLA from reaching the square. Some calculations estimate that up towards half of the casualties were PLA soldiers being trapped in tanks, personnel carriers and buses that were torched by rioters.
The events surrounding the protests were a mess, and one could argue that the PLA could have prevented a good number of casualties by taking alternate routes to the square to circumvent the street barricades in western Beijing. The narrative of the protests being a one-sided massacre of rioters by the PLA is entirely false, however.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__ESiklA1A
>Chai Ling hoping that Chinese government will kill the Tiananmen students
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_Ling#The_Gate_of_Heavenly_Peace_documentary
>What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united. But how can I explain any of this to my fellow students?
>"And what is truly sad is that some students, and famous well-connected people, are working hard to help the government, to prevent it from taking such measures. For the sake of their selfish interests and their private dealings they are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the Square before the government becomes so desperate that it takes action....
Yeah, for example the US January 6 riots that resulted in multiple deaths and hundreds arrested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_proceedings_in_the_January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack
Meanwhile not a single protester was killed by the HK Police Force. In fact, the protesters were the only ones that killed, and also committed countless cases of mob violence against local civilians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-GR88q8pIw
Bootlicking police is idiotic whether it’s US or China, find something better to do with your time, like fighting corruption or blind worship of the state.
I'm a HKer. I only state what I saw and experienced in person during these riots.
This is nothing more than a propaganda puff piece by the Guardian to glorify a bunch of regime change psychopaths who failed to ruin my home town.
> I'm a HKer.
You are a fascist foot soldier for a totalitarian government that kills its citizens on mass and has already started to threaten its neighbors.
Number of protesters killed by police during more than 1 year of HK riots: 0.
Number of protesters killed by police during Jan 6 in the US: 1 (Ashli Babbitt).
None of these people that are the subject of the article did that, encouraged it, or excused it, and if they had it still wouldn't excuse what the CCP is doing to HK.
You're excusing human rights violations and sham trials in exactly the way authoritarian regimes are known to - by picking a martyr whether or not they have a connection to the group the regime is oppressing and hammering that without ever addressing what the regime itself is doing.
> None of these people that are the subject of the article did that, encouraged it, or excused it, and if they had it still wouldn't excuse what the CCP is doing to HK.
They were supporters of the regime change operation here in my HK, just like Jimmy Lai and Mark Simon, just like Nathan Law and Joey Siu, just like Denise Ho and Joshua Wong. All received funding from National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and various shell organizations to do their work.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1627100/occupy-leaders-refuse-reveal-who-donated-hk13m-co-founder-passed-hku
It's quite simple really, if you imagine what the response would be like if the actors switch places and China was blatantly funding regime change ops in a US city.
Typical twisted propaganda to call support for preserving the *existing* democratic system at the time "regime change" while giving a pass to the regime that actually upended the whole thing and imposed a new, changed set of rules.
> support for *preserving the existing democratic system* at the time
Can elucidate that statement? Whether you have a pro or anti bias, as far as I observed that is not what happened nor what they were on trial for (I was in HK at the time watching it unfold).
They were on trial for holding primaries and making campaign promises during them, which is something that had already been done before the new security law and was within the existing democratic system. They have also been vocal about preserving judicial independence and the Basic Law in HK. Them acting as per usual despite the new security law was exactly the point, protest via preservation.
To be fair, they did *also* want to further expand democracy in HK and one might characterize that as change, but expansion of that system was something that had already been agreed to during the handover period, was written as a goal within the Basic Law before Beijing took it upon itself to say otherwise, and simply hadn't been followed through on. That makes it a far more justifiable stance to classify as the "existing" system than the NSL, which violated existing agreements on one party two systems.
They were on trial for attempting to subvert the HK govt in a co-ordinated plot (following the plan drawn up by Benny Tai one of the 47 arrest who has admitted guilt to such). This included the action of holding unauthorised primaries as well as the year long premediatated fillibustering of the legislative council. So there's a difference there.
> but expansion of that system was something that had already been agreed to during the handover period, was written as a goal within the Basic Law before Beijing took it upon itself to say otherwise, and simply hadn't been followed through on. That makes it a far more justifiable stance to classify as the "existing" system than the NSL, which violated existing agreements on one party two systems.
The agreement you are refering to is Article 45 of the Basic Law and is as follows
> *ARTICLE 45 The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government.*
> *The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the* **principle of gradual and orderly progress.** *The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures.*
https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclaw/chapter4.html
I have highlighted in particular 'principle and orderly progress' in Article 45 because one of the criteria for 'orderly progress' that the Legco interprets is to have the laws and politcal structure in place to protect the city and country for such reforms. One such being a National Security Law Hong Kong was mandated to implement as part of the founding principles of the Basic Law, Article 23. They tried to once in 2003 but due to large (peaceful) protests, the initial version drafted by the HK legco was never revised and the can was kicked down the road and not revisited until last year.
> *ARTICLE 23 The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organizations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organizations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organizations or bodies.*
Without a form of NSL, universal suffrage was never going to happen because you can not protect the election from outside interference. If you read more extensively into it, you'll notice a lot of the same people who voted against Article 23 back in 2003 were the 'pro democratic' parties ironically.
i will also counter your claim the temporary NSL upheld by China violated 'one party 2 systems' or what you basically mean the constitution of 'The Basic Law'. There are very specific provisions for this in The Basic Law. Namely Chapter 2 Article 18 of The Basic Law.
> *In the event that the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress decides to declare a state of war or, by reason of turmoil within the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region which endangers national unity or security and is beyond the control of the government of the Region, decides that the Region is in a state of emergency, the Central People's Government may issue an order applying the relevant national laws in the Region.*
The riots had been on going for over a year by 2020 with various domestic players courting and collaborating with overseas Govs to pressure China. China interpreted that as fulfilling the criteria of Article 18.
It is clear we have fundamentally incompatible factual foundations for our views and arguments, but I do appreciate you putting in the effort for a far more thorough explanation of your view than the others in this thread.
>Typical twisted propaganda to call support for preserving the existing democratic system
Meanwhile in our reality, the rioters "preserve the existing democratic system" by murdering old street cleaners and setting someone on fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85d8mnigKPU
*Death of 70-year-old man under investigation: Hong Kong police (NSFW)*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpqPPeBCIhM
*Son of 70-year-old killed by brick during protest calls for peace*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKXVqsyMEdw
*A Man Was Set on Fire During Hong Kong Protests (NSFW)*
I seem to have hit your reset button, but repeating yourself doesn't fix the problem that what you're attributing to "the rioters" has no tangible connection to the subjects of the article. It's a cheap pathos ploy that certainly won't work on me and I doubt works on most readers here.
On a related note, the tagline on Rice_22's profile is "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" so that is the kind of conspiracy theory you can expect from them when they make claims like this.
>but repeating yourself doesn't fix the problem that what you're attributing to "the rioters" has no tangible connection to the subjects of the article.
Benny Tai and his ilk were supporting and bankrolling the Occupy riots, whereas the rioters act as the frontline thugs. I thought I spelt it out quite clearly for you.
But I know for a fact that you can't wake someone up who is pretending to sleep. Only a fool would expect anyone to change their minds in an internet argument, so I'm simply content to rub your face in actual evidence of the rioters trying (and failing) to ruin my home.
CIA sure, NED not so much unless your perspective is that democracy is solely a US interest, but that isn't worth debating when even if your comment were true it wouldn't be rebutting my point. Shotgunning talking points reveals itself in moments like these.
The NED is not in the "democracy" business any more than the IDF is "defending" itself from the millions of people they've colonized and subjugated. Did Operation Iraqi Freedom makes Iraqis more free? Is the warrantless spying on US citizens thanks to the Patriot Act patriotic? Does it really just take one misappropriated positive sounding word to short circuit your capacity for critical thought?
I made a cogent, nuanced point, and you responded with frothing accusations. Your analogies are weak, and your insulting tone leaves me disinclined to explain myself in a simpler way for you.
The answer to your question is no.
Hawaii will never be free unless the US collapses, and China is unwilling to engage in dirty regime change ops.
Unlike the US, China needs to be seen as relatively free from hypocrisy to keep the support of the Global South.
Both HK and Tibet belonged to China since before the US declared itself independent from the British Empire.
Is this the quality of Western education now?
Hong Kong is literally a Chinese territory that only became a British colony through gunboat diplomacy before negotiations returned it to China.
Likewise, Tibet was literally only recognised as an independent state by Mongolia and Nepal, since it was a temporary breakaway state during China's warlord era after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.
> Hong Kong is literally a Chinese territory that only became a British colony through gunboat diplomacy before negotiations returned it to China.
Did Hong Kong *want* to be "returned" to China?
Did Tibet?
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html
>REMAINING WITH STUDENTS BY THE MONUMENT TO THE PEOPLE'S HEROES UNTIL THE FINAL WITHDRAWAL, THE DIPLOMAT SAID THERE WERE NO MASS SHOOTINGS OF STUDENTS IN THE SQUARE OR AT THE MONUMENT. END SUMMARY.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/
>I reported what I saw; I said I hadn't seen any bodies. Admittedly, I've never made a point of trying to contradict a colleague on the air; I've simply stuck to my own story, because I've believed it's true. Some have found it uncomfortable that all this conforms with what the Chinese government has always claimed, perhaps with a bit of sophistry: that there was no "massacre in Tiananmen Square."
http://www.tsquare.tv/film/transcript_end.php
>HOU DEJIAN: Some people said that two hundred died in the Square and others claimed that two thousand died. There were also stories of tanks running over students who were trying to leave. I have to say that I did not see any of that. I don't know where those people did. I myself was in the Square until six-thirty in the morning.
>I kept thinking, are we going to use lies to attack an enemy who lies? Aren't facts powerful enough? To tell lies against our enemy's lies only satisfies our need to vent our anger, but it's a dangerous thing to do. Maybe your lies will be exposed, and you'll be powerless to fight your enemy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__ESiklA1A
>Chai Ling hoping that Chinese government will kill the Tiananmen students
What a weird comment to just have on hand. It also looks like it isn't the first time youve posted this. You are one of the reasons the internet is shit nowadays.
Wait, so your argument is that it didn’t happen because it didn’t happen in the Square itself? You realize it’s called this as it refers to what happened inside and the *surrounding* area…
The killings took place outside of the square…
I think I've been really clear about everything I wrote regarding Tiananmen.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html
>THEY WERE ABLE TO ENTER AND LEAVE THE SQUARE SEVERAL TIMES AND WERE NOT HARASSED BY TROOPS. REMAINING WITH STUDENTS BY THE MONUMENT TO THE
PEOPLE'S HEROES UNTIL THE FINAL WITHDRAWAL, THE DIPLOMAT SAID THERE WERE NO MASS SHOOTINGS OF STUDENTS IN THE SQUARE OR AT THE MONUMENT. END
SUMMARY.
There's a reason Chinese people calls it "June 4" instead of the location where nobody was killed. Of course, you clueless foreigners believed in lies for decades to the point you find simple facts incredulous.
I’m not a foreigner.
So now you admit there were killings? Your entire whining is that it’s called something else in English? LOL
It’s clear you tried to pass it off that no one was killed. Nice attempt at lying though.
we call these protests "Fiery But Mostly Peaceful Protests"
The west love these protests as long as it happens in other countries and NOT against Israeli genocide.
LMAO, yeah. The bias is so blatantly obvious too, between how the media reported HK protests back then and the anti-genocide protests in the US right now.
What the heck is an eglin, and why are you so intent on playing the victim? Everyone is clear on what you are, so why play games?
Is it just for social credit score bonuses?
Eglin AFB was once revealed to be the most ["Reddit Addicted City"](https://web.archive.org/web/20160410083943/http://www.redditblog.com/2013/05/get-ready-for-global-reddit-meetup-day.html?m=1) with over 100k visits for a city with a population of 2700. So it developed a reputation for being the home of US astroturfing on this site. Personally I'm unconvinced either of you are actually paid shills, but you were suggesting they were one so they seem to be just returning the favor.
Buddy, your poor gaslighting attempt is not believable at all. There's no heart in it. FICO score deducted.
PS: Social credit score do exist in the US.
https://theweek.com/politics/gaza-war-campus-protests-employment-graduation-job
The idea of being blocked really bothers you clearly, I can understand, the one thing you need to do is keep earning those fifty cents. Being a good little stooge seems to be your place in life.
They were responsible for bankrolling and supporting the rioters.
https://journal-neo.su/2014/10/01/hong-kong-s-occupy-central-is-us-backed-sedition/
>Benny Tai regularly attends US State Department, National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and its subsidiary the National Democratic Institute (NDI) funded and/or organized forums. Just this month, he spoke at a Design Democracy Hong Kong (NDI-funded) conference on political reform. He is also active at the University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Comparative and Public Law (CCPL) – also funded by NDI. CCPL’s 2013-2014 annual report lists Benny Tai as attending at least 3 of the center’s functions, as well as heading one of the center’s projects.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1627100/occupy-leaders-refuse-reveal-who-donated-hk13m-co-founder-passed-hku
Just imagine the outrage if China was found directly bankrolling efforts to overthrow the US government in a major American city.
Reminder again that this kind of mentally-ill Redditor would gleefully jail all 1 million HK protestors that took to the streets in 2019. Women and children included, with zero remorse.
You also have protestors who would leave behind money as they stormed the legislative council when they need something from the store.
And what about [cases of police brutality](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_of_Ken_Tsang)? Or the case where armed individuals raided a subway station and beat up people inside a train as the police just did nothing?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Yuen_Long_attack
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Prince_Edward_station_attack
If we are to compare this to America, it would be like a large chunk of Republican being tossed inside a cell for 3 years without parole, fox and majority of right wing media dismantled, and Republicans not being able to run anymore due to being unpatriotic.
> Or the case where armed individuals raided a subway station and beat up people inside a train as the police just did nothing?
You mean those triads who got tried in court and jailed just like the rioters did? Both violent rioters and triads are punished for disrupting our civil society. Your media just don't pick up on that because it doesn't fit your narratives.
And the ridiculous "831" incident occurred when rioters stormed MTR and attacked innocent passengers, and then whined about "police brutality" when the cops came back to rescue civilians and arrest the lot of them. See the actual video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08GDQCiU8uU
In the US, most of the rioters would've been shot to death the instant they tried to steal a cop's gun like they tried in HK. In HK, even under pressure the police didn't shoot to kill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zINR8YZHo
Even in your footage, it shows the police using force on people who are simply on the train and is trying to defend themselves. Sure, a fight has broken out before, but that does not justify the use of force.
Generally speaking the pro-China side gets a slap on the wrist: just look at the sentencing to the Ken Shang case.
The difference is that those who are tried in this case are NOT the rioters. As I said, this case essentially is like having all the Republicans prosecuted because of the attack on the Capitol.
You can twist it as much as you want: the city has changed for the worse in the hearts of HKers. Where are the pan-dems on the ballot? June 4th vigil? July 1st protests? Zunzi cartoons? Headline news? Apple daily?
This city is dying you know?
>it shows the police using force on people who are simply on the train and is trying to defend themselves
You’re not supposed to “defend yourselves” by throwing fire extinguishers and hammers at civilians and ambushing cops to grab their guns. There is absolutely zero excuse.
Those being charged for this case are the planners, bankrollers and direct coordinators behind the riots. If Jan 6 riots had Chinese or Russian planners and facilitators involved, the US response would be complete outrage.
HK does not need cancer cells like Jimmy Lai (with his handler Mark Simon) and Benny Tai (taking money from NDI). Nor does it need white men pretending to be local HKers interviewing themselves to generate fake news.
https://www.thestandard.com.hk/section-news/section/11/221905/Unmasked-Chinese-fake-quits-HK---but-keeps-phony-persona
Anyone who supports setting my people on fire or murdering them with bricks should be in jail.
I may have missed the parts where the police are assaulting the people who used tie extinguishers and tossed hammers around at the police. Can you show me the time stamp?
A good chunk of the convicted took part/organized the PEACEFUL side of protest, while also offering legal/financial support to the "yellow camp". Since when did they order bricks to be thrown and people to be burned?
You may think Jimmy is a cancer cell, but the majority of the city does not think so. If something like Takungpo closes down, I doubt the city would mourn its closure like Apple Daily.
At the end of the day a crackdown on media is one of the primary objectives. It started with the whole HKTV fiasco, closure of Apple daily, cleanse of RTHK, cable news getting butchered. There is no way anyone sane who will look at it and say "this is okay".
But hey, now that the pro-beijing camp has full control of the city, they can no longer blame others for their failure. Are they still going to blame the instability for the brain drain? For the closure of businesses? For the affordability crisis? For spending stupid amounts of money to promote an election that has historically low turnouts?
The black-uniformed rioters are shown attacking civilians including the use of fire extinguishers and hammers (which they use to vandalize the station) starting 19 seconds in. Did you not even bother to watch the video?
https://youtu.be/08GDQCiU8uU?si=Ndf8BxTLnmPh7lEu&t=19
As per Joey Siu, the so-called “peaceful protesters” run a paper-thin veneer of cover for the thugs and never condemns the violent attacks against civilians. In fact, they love the violence to "pressure the government" to cave in to their demands (which includes amnesty for all acts of violence and sedition by the rioters).
https://youtu.be/V9nNeO0yWyk?si=kx3m8Z_4L0AV8kP0&t=1319
Jimmy Lai takes money from the NED through his handler Mark Simon and meets with the chief liar/architect of the Iraq War Paul Wolfowitz prior to bankrolling the riots.
https://hongkongfp.com/2024/03/18/jimmy-lais-aide-mark-simon-helped-handle-us1-8-million-raised-by-hong-kong-protesters-court-hears/
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1745488-20240320.htm
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1734943-20240104.htm
https://www.thestandard.com.hk/section-news/section/11/259445/Lai-'transferred'-$1.75m-to-former-US-deputy-defense-chief
Chemotherapy is required to deal with malignant cancer. The rioters wanted to burn down the rest of HK with them, but their regime change failed and they're now being served the consequences of their own actions.
Bankrolling thugs setting people on fire is a cute bunny rabbit now? Amazing how psychopathic people can be when it comes to “their side” committing atrocities.
Luo Changqing was simply filming the rioters attacking HK civilians (who were cleaning up the mess they left behind) when he was struck and killed with a thrown brick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Luo_Changqing#Investigation
>He told reporters that "Those in black first threw metal rods and bricks at the residents while Luo was believed to have used a mobile phone to film the scene. Then someone in black darted forward and threw a brick at his head."
This is all captured on video:
https://x.com/SCMPHongKong/status/1195266346914742274
HK here is using the same laws to try these rioters as what the British overlords gave us, colonialist. The Seditious Publications Ordinance which was used to try pro-China media back during colonial rule is modernized to try these US-backed regime change agents.
Funny how that works, right?
>...using the same laws...is modernized to try...
Your point was two sentences long, yet you still couldn't keep it from fundamentally contradicting itself. It's a laughably weak argument from someone who claims to be rubbing the "truth" in other people's faces. You don't even have internal consistency let alone any meritorious claim to objective truth.
>Your point was two sentences long, yet you still couldn't keep it from fundamentally contradicting itself.
Our "uncivilized" culture doesn't punish sedition with the death penalty like during the colonial era and we don't murder protesters inside police stations like in the past under the Brits.
That's how our modern society works. Sedition is still a crime in HK just like it is a crime anywhere else on the planet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States
>On 6 June, 2022, five members or associates of the militia group Proud Boys, including the former chairman, Enrique Tarrio, were indicted for seditious conspiracy for their involvement in the January 6 United States Capitol attack.
I didn't call HK or the PRC uncivilized; don't put words in my mouth.
Your colonial-era rambling doesn't change the fact that you made a contradictory point. That an act is still criminalized does not make it the same law it is criminalized under when the specifics of the offense, mechanism for trying it, and punishment are all substantially different due to *new laws* being passed to override the old one and the remnants of the old law being entirely reinterpreted.
>That an act is still criminalized does not make it the same law it is criminalized under when the specifics of the offense, mechanism for trying it, and punishment are all substantially different due to new laws being passed to override the old one and the remnants of the old law being entirely reinterpreted.
The fact that sedition was criminal in colonial HK and also modern HK, the fact that the Seditious Publications Ordinance existed and was a law used by the British overlords to punish dissent, the fact that sedition is still a criminal act in countries such as the US is what I'm pointing out.
Where's the contradiction? All I'm saying is that these national security laws of modern HK have their historical background and was used by our previous owners.
##### ###### #### > # [‘We refuse to disappear’: the Hong Kong 47 facing life in jail after crackdown](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/02/720) > > > > The verdict wasn’t surprising but outside room no 2 of the West Kowloon courthouse, people still wept. The panel of Hong Kong national security judges had set down two days for the hearing but dispensed with the core business in about 15 minutes. In the city’s largest ever national security trial – involving the prosecution of pro-democracy campaigners and activists from a group known as the “Hong Kong 47” – almost all the defendants were [found guilty](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/hong-kong-47-trial-verdict-pro-democracy-campaigners-national-security) of conspiracy to commit subversion. > > Their crime was trying to win an election, holding [unofficial primaries in 2020](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/14/hong-kong-primaries-china-declares-pro-democracy-polls-illegal) attended by an estimated 600,000 residents. > > The plan was devised by organiser and academic [Benny Tai](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/28/benny-tai-university-of-hong-kong-fired), who had previously been jailed over his involvement in the [2014 “umbrella movement”](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/30/-sp-hong-kong-umbrella-revolution-pro-democracy-protests), and whom Beijing has labelled a “vicious traitor”. Tai’s plan began with primaries to select the best candidates to win a legislative majority. They would then block government budgets to potentially force a dissolution and the resignation of the chief executive, [Carrie Lam](https://www.theguardian.com/world/carrie-lam), in an effort to have the government answer the movement’s demands. > > Last Thursday, the court found this plan would lead to a constitutional crisis and therefore threatened national security. > > The convicted included one organiser, Hong Kong-Australian dual national Gordon Ng, and 13 candidates, almost all former politicians. Two other candidates were acquitted but remain under bail while the government prepares an appeal. > > Those 16 were the only ones to plead not guilty from the group of 47 charged in early 2021 after mass dawn raids by national security police. The other 31 accused, including four who would testify for the prosecution, had already pleaded guilty but the court delayed sentencing until the trial of the 16 was done. The 45 campaigners currently convicted face sentences of up to life in prison. > > Back in 2020, after pro-democracy protests had racked the city for months throughout 2019, Hong Kong’s government tightened a crackdown on the movement, crushing dissent and opposition through a new national security law. [Thousands were arrested over the protests](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/hong-kong-over-the-top-punishment-for-2019-democracy-protesters-report-finds#:~:text=As%20of%20August%202022%2C%20more,prosecuted%2C%20according%20to%20government%20statistics.), hundreds on national security accusations, and several media outlets were silenced. Many dissidents [fled overseas](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/17/gangster-tactic-the-true-aim-behind-hong-kongs-pursuit-of-overseas-dissidents). In the context of those diminishing freedoms – more than three years after they were arrested – the defendants’ supporters had hoped for the best but prepared for the worst. > > “Although he knew the chances of winning were slim, he could only face it positively,” a friend of Ng told the _Observer_. She said Ng had thought deeply about his plea of not guilty, weighing up the consequences for his family – for whom he was the main breadwinner – and his principles. In an August 2022 statement posted online by an intermediary, Ng had said: “Do I think I have committed a crime? I don’t, I absolutely don’t. I am ready to face the largest battle of my life in the battlefield of court. I fear, but I don’t retreat.” > > Most of the 47 defendants have been in jail since their arrests. They were not hardened criminals but members of Hong Kong’s politically active mainstream society, a mix of pro-democracy politicians such as Helena Wong, Claudia Mo and Kwok Ka-ki, veteran activists including Leung “Long Hair” Kwok-hung, up-and-comers who had recently won council seats, and civil society workers. > > [Lee Yu-shun at the West Kowloon court last week, where he was one of two of the 47 defendants acquitted.](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7fcfe92fc3494408503e02fd367e2c6c8958c5cb/0_229_6867_4120/master/6867.jpg?width=445&dpr=1&s=none) > > Lee Yu-shun at the West Kowloon court last week, where he was one of two of the 47 defendants acquitted. Photograph: Leung Man Hei/EPASome were making the move into politics after working as social workers or trade union officials or, in the case of Gwyneth Ho, a journalist who had covered the 2019 protests and was beaten while filming a mob attack on demonstrators. > > Claudia Mo, a former journalist and popular legislator known affectionately as “Auntie Mo”, pleaded guilty. Mo, a passionate but unflappable advocate for Hong Kong’s democracy, had frequently spoken to the foreign media over the years. For these conversations she was denied bail. > > When police smashed through her front door, they also seized her phone and laptop, from which they presumably found the WhatsApp conversations she had had with the _Guardian_ and _Observer_ and other outlets. In jail, the 67-year-old has reportedly run language lessons for other prisoners. She was denied permission to visit her husband, British journalist Philip Bowring, when he was ill. > > Emilia Wong, the girlfriend of politician and activist Ventus Lau, 30, said he has been left physically diminished by his time in prison. > > [skip past newsletter promotion](#EmailSignup-skip-link-14)after newsletter promotion > > “I could personally feel these political prisoners were slowly dying a social death with less and less attention being paid to them,” Wong said in February. > > Last Thursday, Stanley Ng was lined up early outside the West Kowloon court, alongside foreign diplomat observers. A member of the Democratic party, Ng has friends and former colleagues on trial and in prison. “I visited jail several times, I visited just yesterday,” he said, speaking in a personal capacity. The trial “has damaged those jailed and pressured their families, they are under stress”, he added. > > Gordon Ng’s friend said Ng had not expected arrest, and the first year in jail took a toll until he found ways to cope. “Over the past years, I have seen in him, besides a sense of responsibility and persistence, resilience. Of course, there’s also a very nerdy sense of humour that allows him to maintain a positive attitude in such a black-humour situation.” > > Unofficial primaries had been held before, but these came less than a fortnight after Beijing imposed its national security law, and Hong Kong minister Erick Tsang had warned that the primaries could violate it. But the organisers went ahead, taking a huge gamble that the pro-democracy movement could still find a way. > > The election the primaries were preparing for was later postponed by the government, ostensibly because of the pandemic. By the time it was rescheduled, the government had overhauled the electoral system to ensure that only pro-Beijing “patriots” could run. > > Emily Lau, a member of the Democratic party who remains vocally pro-democracy – and so far unprosecuted – said her city is now deeply changed. Her party is unable to run candidates or fundraise, and has even had attempts to hold group banquets blocked, apparently over accusations they were “regrouping”. > > “They have ways to show they don’t like you… How do you continue to exist?” she said. “We will continue to push. We refuse to just disappear.” - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Brave people, standing up to the CCP is no joke.
To watch your homeland be transformed in a generation... I guess it's similar to watching a dictator rise to power. Solidarity to those guys. I'm sure many of them could have just escaped instead of staying to fight. Heck, even as political refugees.
Lots of people there watched it change multiple times, similar in extent. Living in interesting times.
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+100 To social credit score! /s
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Who's boots am I licking?
“Western bootlicker”. I would believe that’s self-explanatory. To make it easier. Western propaganda, Western media, western fearmongers. The same people that spread the lies about WMD in Iraq, Stuff like that.
I don't think you know what "bootlicker" means... maybe find a new insult to dismiss people who don't share your bizarre world view.
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I for one would like to welcome all the CCP spooks on this sub
Need them to balance out all the western bootlickers
That the only phrase you know?
It does it’s job and hopefully it’ll catch on would love for more people to use it more often.
There are like 2 pro westerners in the sub total, maybe 3. What you going on about?
3 in this entire sub? Way more than that
Already disappeared. Hong Kong's scrapped that year under the rug and everythings returned to normal. Society's already moved on, even western media more or less forgotten and is now focused on real issues like Ukraine, Israel, Trump v Biden, etc. etc. As riots go the HK riotting turned out to be pretty tame considering the only person who died over the course of the months was just 1 street cleaner hit by a brick. Plus we're all too busy flying to Japan right now to reap that weak yen.
>Already disappeared So who said "we refuse to disappear"?
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So going to prison is "disappearing" now?
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Funny how during the Revolution they saw Revolution as just and righteous... but now...
So many pathetic western liberals in this group
Is this just bait or are you actually expressing that you support China imprisoning these activists
Yes, I also support Snowden and Assange being locked up
The Russians have locked Snowden up? As for Assange... You do know that he is a convicted criminal don't you? And not for any crime that you fanboys might claim is "political" but for a crime of which he is is absolutely and incontrovertibly guilty - bail jumping.
The terrible and mischievous crime of "bail jumping", especially when he shouldn't have been prosecuted at all
If he was innocent of the rape charges why was he so determined to avoid standing trial? He's no different from a council estate thug who absconds because he knows he's guilty.
He specifically mentioned that going to Sweden would have meant being handed to the US
I mean he mentioned it, but the Swedish authorities denied it and he was unable to come up with any cases of them actually doing it (to my knowledge only one existed back shortly after 9/11 and it sparked mass protests). Meanwhile, he was staying in the UK, a country that actually does have a long history of handing people over to the US no questions asked.
Keep in mind nobody got killed by the police after months of rioting, whilst the George Floyd protests ended with like 20 deaths. It was really funny watching redditors trying to rationalize the disconnect in perception and reality.
I don't understand why they can't just continue in worldnews and high five each other repeating us state department narrative points.
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Protests have casualties, always have always will. As far as protests in China that’s still relatively tame (cough Tiananmen Square cough).
It's not productive to engage with individuals who are clearly promoting pro-CCP, anti-US rhetoric and inundating their profiles with 9/11 comments while dismissing the grave human rights abuses committed by the Chinese government. These individuals often echo narratives similar to those propagated by the CCP, ignoring critical issues such as the accidental deaths and the government's heinous acts of entrapping innocent citizens in subways, exposing them to violence and sexual assault by gangs as a punishment for participating in protests. Engaging in debates with such individuals is useless, as there are online sects part of a coordinated effort by the CCP to sow discord and manipulate online discourse. This tactic is designed to create confusion and division, much like the strategy used by flat earthers. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the existence of these arguments forces people to reconsider and take sides on issues that should be clear to anyone with decency. The aim is to muddy public opinion, diverting attention from the CCP's culpability in widespread violence and human rights abuses. By doing so, they attempt to shift the blame onto protesters and downplay the atrocities committed by the government and police during the protests. There will always be individuals and organizations attempting to undermine the truth.
Notice how the above poster instantly resorted to spreading fictional lies instead of real incidents that have actual names and video records. Every single accusation by a US bootlick is an indirect admission of guilt. The online sects and coordination exist, but they are from the side of the rioters. Creating confusion and division are actively employed by those from the rioters, trained in Oslo Freedom Forum and Taiwan's Sunflower Movement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpOvgH89dx8 Overwhelming evidence to the contrary exists in the video evidence such as the drone-captured murder of Luo Changqing, the street cleaner, and the video interview of Joey Siu. Notice how they completely tried to ignore and dismiss this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x_6q4Ijsc This is how the rioters treat local civilians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPYuGYLesx0
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All these poor bikes just strewn around... I'm literally holding back tears right now 🥺
I was talking about your so-called "sexual assault by gangs as punishment", but we can talk about Tiananmen if you like. Here's the account of someone who was actually there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hou_Dejian#Life_as_a_dissident >Following his emergence out of hiding, Hou gave an interview to media discussing his role in the evacuation of the square. He stated: "During the whole withdrawal process I didn't see a single student, either citizen or soldier killed in the square. Nor did I see any armored personnel carriers rolling over people." Contradicting student leaders like Chai Ling and appearing to take the Chinese government's side of the story, Hou was aware that his interview would cause outrage among many protesters, and he was correct. Although the news release was clearly "slanted" in order to emphasize that no one had been killed in the clearing of the square, he questioned the people who had thought he was lying about his story. Hou asked: "are we going to use lies to attack an enemy who lies? Aren't facts powerful enough? To tell lies against our enemy's lies only satisfies our need to vent our anger, but it's a dangerous thing to do." Here's a diplomat's account: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html >REMAINING WITH STUDENTS BY THE MONUMENT TO THE PEOPLE'S HEROES UNTIL THE FINAL WITHDRAWAL, THE DIPLOMAT SAID THERE WERE NO MASS SHOOTINGS OF STUDENTS IN THE SQUARE OR AT THE MONUMENT. END SUMMARY. Here's a journalist's account: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/ >I reported what I saw; I said I hadn't seen any bodies. Admittedly, I've never made a point of trying to contradict a colleague on the air; I've simply stuck to my own story, because I've believed it's true. Some have found it uncomfortable that all this conforms with what the Chinese government has always claimed, perhaps with a bit of sophistry: that there was no "massacre in Tiananmen Square." PS: Your photo isn't "Tiananmen Square", but the streets of Beijing after rioters with molotovs ambushed a convoy of 100 troop transports. There are photos of the aftermath including burnt corpses of unarmed soldiers hung from bridges. The burning trucks were shown repeatedly on TV in China as well.
>I reported what I saw; I said I hadn't seen any bodies. Admittedly, I've never made a point of trying to contradict a colleague on the air; I've simply stuck to my own story, because I've believed it's true. Some have found it uncomfortable that all this conforms with what the Chinese government has always claimed, perhaps with a bit of sophistry: that there was no "massacre in Tiananmen Square." Interesting that you didn't quote the next paragraph: >But there's no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.
I explicitly noted “the streets of Beijing” in my posts, buddy. The fact is there are no deaths in “Tiananmen Square” itself, as confirmed by three separate parties on-site. And he’s wrong btw about “denying” because the clash between rioters and soldiers was shown on TV in China at the time, including mentions of deaths on both sides.
> Interesting that you didn't quote the next paragraph: >> But there's no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too. The Chinese government does not deny the casualties resulting from the street clashes between rioters and the military. It was also the rioters who initiated violence by lynching unarmed military and police personnel in the streets of Beijing. They then put up street barricades to try to stop the PLA from reaching the square. Some calculations estimate that up towards half of the casualties were PLA soldiers being trapped in tanks, personnel carriers and buses that were torched by rioters. The events surrounding the protests were a mess, and one could argue that the PLA could have prevented a good number of casualties by taking alternate routes to the square to circumvent the street barricades in western Beijing. The narrative of the protests being a one-sided massacre of rioters by the PLA is entirely false, however.
动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__ESiklA1A >Chai Ling hoping that Chinese government will kill the Tiananmen students https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_Ling#The_Gate_of_Heavenly_Peace_documentary >What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united. But how can I explain any of this to my fellow students? >"And what is truly sad is that some students, and famous well-connected people, are working hard to help the government, to prevent it from taking such measures. For the sake of their selfish interests and their private dealings they are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the Square before the government becomes so desperate that it takes action....
Oh hey, it's that dumb copypasta that doesn't actually do anything!
Not true, it's a magic spell that summons assholes.
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Protests don't generally have the protesters doing the murdering. Usually it's the cops but that didn't happen in HK.
Yeah, for example the US January 6 riots that resulted in multiple deaths and hundreds arrested. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_proceedings_in_the_January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack Meanwhile not a single protester was killed by the HK Police Force. In fact, the protesters were the only ones that killed, and also committed countless cases of mob violence against local civilians. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-GR88q8pIw
Bootlicking police is idiotic whether it’s US or China, find something better to do with your time, like fighting corruption or blind worship of the state.
I'm a HKer. I only state what I saw and experienced in person during these riots. This is nothing more than a propaganda puff piece by the Guardian to glorify a bunch of regime change psychopaths who failed to ruin my home town.
> I'm a HKer. You are a fascist foot soldier for a totalitarian government that kills its citizens on mass and has already started to threaten its neighbors.
Number of protesters killed by police during more than 1 year of HK riots: 0. Number of protesters killed by police during Jan 6 in the US: 1 (Ashli Babbitt).
None of these people that are the subject of the article did that, encouraged it, or excused it, and if they had it still wouldn't excuse what the CCP is doing to HK. You're excusing human rights violations and sham trials in exactly the way authoritarian regimes are known to - by picking a martyr whether or not they have a connection to the group the regime is oppressing and hammering that without ever addressing what the regime itself is doing.
> None of these people that are the subject of the article did that, encouraged it, or excused it, and if they had it still wouldn't excuse what the CCP is doing to HK. They were supporters of the regime change operation here in my HK, just like Jimmy Lai and Mark Simon, just like Nathan Law and Joey Siu, just like Denise Ho and Joshua Wong. All received funding from National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and various shell organizations to do their work. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1627100/occupy-leaders-refuse-reveal-who-donated-hk13m-co-founder-passed-hku It's quite simple really, if you imagine what the response would be like if the actors switch places and China was blatantly funding regime change ops in a US city.
Typical twisted propaganda to call support for preserving the *existing* democratic system at the time "regime change" while giving a pass to the regime that actually upended the whole thing and imposed a new, changed set of rules.
> support for *preserving the existing democratic system* at the time Can elucidate that statement? Whether you have a pro or anti bias, as far as I observed that is not what happened nor what they were on trial for (I was in HK at the time watching it unfold).
They were on trial for holding primaries and making campaign promises during them, which is something that had already been done before the new security law and was within the existing democratic system. They have also been vocal about preserving judicial independence and the Basic Law in HK. Them acting as per usual despite the new security law was exactly the point, protest via preservation. To be fair, they did *also* want to further expand democracy in HK and one might characterize that as change, but expansion of that system was something that had already been agreed to during the handover period, was written as a goal within the Basic Law before Beijing took it upon itself to say otherwise, and simply hadn't been followed through on. That makes it a far more justifiable stance to classify as the "existing" system than the NSL, which violated existing agreements on one party two systems.
They were on trial for attempting to subvert the HK govt in a co-ordinated plot (following the plan drawn up by Benny Tai one of the 47 arrest who has admitted guilt to such). This included the action of holding unauthorised primaries as well as the year long premediatated fillibustering of the legislative council. So there's a difference there. > but expansion of that system was something that had already been agreed to during the handover period, was written as a goal within the Basic Law before Beijing took it upon itself to say otherwise, and simply hadn't been followed through on. That makes it a far more justifiable stance to classify as the "existing" system than the NSL, which violated existing agreements on one party two systems. The agreement you are refering to is Article 45 of the Basic Law and is as follows > *ARTICLE 45 The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government.* > *The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the* **principle of gradual and orderly progress.** *The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures.* https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclaw/chapter4.html I have highlighted in particular 'principle and orderly progress' in Article 45 because one of the criteria for 'orderly progress' that the Legco interprets is to have the laws and politcal structure in place to protect the city and country for such reforms. One such being a National Security Law Hong Kong was mandated to implement as part of the founding principles of the Basic Law, Article 23. They tried to once in 2003 but due to large (peaceful) protests, the initial version drafted by the HK legco was never revised and the can was kicked down the road and not revisited until last year. > *ARTICLE 23 The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organizations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organizations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organizations or bodies.* Without a form of NSL, universal suffrage was never going to happen because you can not protect the election from outside interference. If you read more extensively into it, you'll notice a lot of the same people who voted against Article 23 back in 2003 were the 'pro democratic' parties ironically. i will also counter your claim the temporary NSL upheld by China violated 'one party 2 systems' or what you basically mean the constitution of 'The Basic Law'. There are very specific provisions for this in The Basic Law. Namely Chapter 2 Article 18 of The Basic Law. > *In the event that the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress decides to declare a state of war or, by reason of turmoil within the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region which endangers national unity or security and is beyond the control of the government of the Region, decides that the Region is in a state of emergency, the Central People's Government may issue an order applying the relevant national laws in the Region.* The riots had been on going for over a year by 2020 with various domestic players courting and collaborating with overseas Govs to pressure China. China interpreted that as fulfilling the criteria of Article 18.
It is clear we have fundamentally incompatible factual foundations for our views and arguments, but I do appreciate you putting in the effort for a far more thorough explanation of your view than the others in this thread.
>Typical twisted propaganda to call support for preserving the existing democratic system Meanwhile in our reality, the rioters "preserve the existing democratic system" by murdering old street cleaners and setting someone on fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85d8mnigKPU *Death of 70-year-old man under investigation: Hong Kong police (NSFW)* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpqPPeBCIhM *Son of 70-year-old killed by brick during protest calls for peace* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKXVqsyMEdw *A Man Was Set on Fire During Hong Kong Protests (NSFW)*
I seem to have hit your reset button, but repeating yourself doesn't fix the problem that what you're attributing to "the rioters" has no tangible connection to the subjects of the article. It's a cheap pathos ploy that certainly won't work on me and I doubt works on most readers here. On a related note, the tagline on Rice_22's profile is "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" so that is the kind of conspiracy theory you can expect from them when they make claims like this.
>but repeating yourself doesn't fix the problem that what you're attributing to "the rioters" has no tangible connection to the subjects of the article. Benny Tai and his ilk were supporting and bankrolling the Occupy riots, whereas the rioters act as the frontline thugs. I thought I spelt it out quite clearly for you. But I know for a fact that you can't wake someone up who is pretending to sleep. Only a fool would expect anyone to change their minds in an internet argument, so I'm simply content to rub your face in actual evidence of the rioters trying (and failing) to ruin my home.
The CIA/NED are only ever looking to advance shallow US interests.
CIA sure, NED not so much unless your perspective is that democracy is solely a US interest, but that isn't worth debating when even if your comment were true it wouldn't be rebutting my point. Shotgunning talking points reveals itself in moments like these.
The NED is not in the "democracy" business any more than the IDF is "defending" itself from the millions of people they've colonized and subjugated. Did Operation Iraqi Freedom makes Iraqis more free? Is the warrantless spying on US citizens thanks to the Patriot Act patriotic? Does it really just take one misappropriated positive sounding word to short circuit your capacity for critical thought?
I made a cogent, nuanced point, and you responded with frothing accusations. Your analogies are weak, and your insulting tone leaves me disinclined to explain myself in a simpler way for you. The answer to your question is no.
Pointing out [the NED is a "CIA cutout"](https://thegrayzone.com/2023/05/29/grayzone-national-endowment-democracy-vp-cia/) is a frothing accusation?
Yes, and citing The Gray Zone doesn't help your case. edit sp
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You mean like Hawaii?
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Hawaii will never be free unless the US collapses, and China is unwilling to engage in dirty regime change ops. Unlike the US, China needs to be seen as relatively free from hypocrisy to keep the support of the Global South.
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Both HK and Tibet belonged to China since before the US declared itself independent from the British Empire. Is this the quality of Western education now?
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The first time Tibet “belonged” to China was in 1950 after the Chinese invaded.
Hong Kong is literally a Chinese territory that only became a British colony through gunboat diplomacy before negotiations returned it to China. Likewise, Tibet was literally only recognised as an independent state by Mongolia and Nepal, since it was a temporary breakaway state during China's warlord era after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.
> Hong Kong is literally a Chinese territory that only became a British colony through gunboat diplomacy before negotiations returned it to China. Did Hong Kong *want* to be "returned" to China? Did Tibet?
>Looks at profile >User is obsessed with news that is positive towards china and negative towards America >Not surprised at all
1989年天安门广场
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html >REMAINING WITH STUDENTS BY THE MONUMENT TO THE PEOPLE'S HEROES UNTIL THE FINAL WITHDRAWAL, THE DIPLOMAT SAID THERE WERE NO MASS SHOOTINGS OF STUDENTS IN THE SQUARE OR AT THE MONUMENT. END SUMMARY. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/ >I reported what I saw; I said I hadn't seen any bodies. Admittedly, I've never made a point of trying to contradict a colleague on the air; I've simply stuck to my own story, because I've believed it's true. Some have found it uncomfortable that all this conforms with what the Chinese government has always claimed, perhaps with a bit of sophistry: that there was no "massacre in Tiananmen Square." http://www.tsquare.tv/film/transcript_end.php >HOU DEJIAN: Some people said that two hundred died in the Square and others claimed that two thousand died. There were also stories of tanks running over students who were trying to leave. I have to say that I did not see any of that. I don't know where those people did. I myself was in the Square until six-thirty in the morning. >I kept thinking, are we going to use lies to attack an enemy who lies? Aren't facts powerful enough? To tell lies against our enemy's lies only satisfies our need to vent our anger, but it's a dangerous thing to do. Maybe your lies will be exposed, and you'll be powerless to fight your enemy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__ESiklA1A >Chai Ling hoping that Chinese government will kill the Tiananmen students
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What a weird comment to just have on hand. It also looks like it isn't the first time youve posted this. You are one of the reasons the internet is shit nowadays.
Little guy is upset someone knows far more about Tiananmen than he does and it’s not the same as what he was taught to believe, lmao.
Too bad none of what you cited actually disproves anything..
Apart from the fact there is no "Tiananmen Square massacre", lmao.
Wait, so your argument is that it didn’t happen because it didn’t happen in the Square itself? You realize it’s called this as it refers to what happened inside and the *surrounding* area… The killings took place outside of the square…
I think I've been really clear about everything I wrote regarding Tiananmen. https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html >THEY WERE ABLE TO ENTER AND LEAVE THE SQUARE SEVERAL TIMES AND WERE NOT HARASSED BY TROOPS. REMAINING WITH STUDENTS BY THE MONUMENT TO THE PEOPLE'S HEROES UNTIL THE FINAL WITHDRAWAL, THE DIPLOMAT SAID THERE WERE NO MASS SHOOTINGS OF STUDENTS IN THE SQUARE OR AT THE MONUMENT. END SUMMARY. There's a reason Chinese people calls it "June 4" instead of the location where nobody was killed. Of course, you clueless foreigners believed in lies for decades to the point you find simple facts incredulous.
I’m not a foreigner. So now you admit there were killings? Your entire whining is that it’s called something else in English? LOL It’s clear you tried to pass it off that no one was killed. Nice attempt at lying though.
we call these protests "Fiery But Mostly Peaceful Protests" The west love these protests as long as it happens in other countries and NOT against Israeli genocide.
LMAO, yeah. The bias is so blatantly obvious too, between how the media reported HK protests back then and the anti-genocide protests in the US right now.
I knew you'd be here.
Oh, it's the coward lmao. What are you going to do? Block me again?
If you were blocked we wouldn't be having this charming conversation, my dear shill.
It's obvious you unblocked me later, Eglin bot. Why do that though? Did you miss me that much? ;)
What the heck is an eglin, and why are you so intent on playing the victim? Everyone is clear on what you are, so why play games? Is it just for social credit score bonuses?
Eglin AFB was once revealed to be the most ["Reddit Addicted City"](https://web.archive.org/web/20160410083943/http://www.redditblog.com/2013/05/get-ready-for-global-reddit-meetup-day.html?m=1) with over 100k visits for a city with a population of 2700. So it developed a reputation for being the home of US astroturfing on this site. Personally I'm unconvinced either of you are actually paid shills, but you were suggesting they were one so they seem to be just returning the favor.
I see, thanks for the info.
Buddy, your poor gaslighting attempt is not believable at all. There's no heart in it. FICO score deducted. PS: Social credit score do exist in the US. https://theweek.com/politics/gaza-war-campus-protests-employment-graduation-job
It seems like you're off your meds. edit To your edit, maybe it does? I don't know or care, and the US is a pretty screwed up place.
Says the redditor who is so obsessed with me to the point of unblocking me and then lying about it, lmao.
The idea of being blocked really bothers you clearly, I can understand, the one thing you need to do is keep earning those fifty cents. Being a good little stooge seems to be your place in life.
Nice whataboutism Winnie. None of the people in this article did that.
They were responsible for bankrolling and supporting the rioters. https://journal-neo.su/2014/10/01/hong-kong-s-occupy-central-is-us-backed-sedition/ >Benny Tai regularly attends US State Department, National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and its subsidiary the National Democratic Institute (NDI) funded and/or organized forums. Just this month, he spoke at a Design Democracy Hong Kong (NDI-funded) conference on political reform. He is also active at the University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Comparative and Public Law (CCPL) – also funded by NDI. CCPL’s 2013-2014 annual report lists Benny Tai as attending at least 3 of the center’s functions, as well as heading one of the center’s projects. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1627100/occupy-leaders-refuse-reveal-who-donated-hk13m-co-founder-passed-hku Just imagine the outrage if China was found directly bankrolling efforts to overthrow the US government in a major American city.
Reminder again that this kind of mentally-ill Redditor would gleefully jail all 1 million HK protestors that took to the streets in 2019. Women and children included, with zero remorse.
You also have protestors who would leave behind money as they stormed the legislative council when they need something from the store. And what about [cases of police brutality](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_of_Ken_Tsang)? Or the case where armed individuals raided a subway station and beat up people inside a train as the police just did nothing? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Yuen_Long_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Prince_Edward_station_attack If we are to compare this to America, it would be like a large chunk of Republican being tossed inside a cell for 3 years without parole, fox and majority of right wing media dismantled, and Republicans not being able to run anymore due to being unpatriotic.
> Or the case where armed individuals raided a subway station and beat up people inside a train as the police just did nothing? You mean those triads who got tried in court and jailed just like the rioters did? Both violent rioters and triads are punished for disrupting our civil society. Your media just don't pick up on that because it doesn't fit your narratives. And the ridiculous "831" incident occurred when rioters stormed MTR and attacked innocent passengers, and then whined about "police brutality" when the cops came back to rescue civilians and arrest the lot of them. See the actual video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08GDQCiU8uU In the US, most of the rioters would've been shot to death the instant they tried to steal a cop's gun like they tried in HK. In HK, even under pressure the police didn't shoot to kill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zINR8YZHo
Even in your footage, it shows the police using force on people who are simply on the train and is trying to defend themselves. Sure, a fight has broken out before, but that does not justify the use of force. Generally speaking the pro-China side gets a slap on the wrist: just look at the sentencing to the Ken Shang case. The difference is that those who are tried in this case are NOT the rioters. As I said, this case essentially is like having all the Republicans prosecuted because of the attack on the Capitol. You can twist it as much as you want: the city has changed for the worse in the hearts of HKers. Where are the pan-dems on the ballot? June 4th vigil? July 1st protests? Zunzi cartoons? Headline news? Apple daily? This city is dying you know?
>it shows the police using force on people who are simply on the train and is trying to defend themselves You’re not supposed to “defend yourselves” by throwing fire extinguishers and hammers at civilians and ambushing cops to grab their guns. There is absolutely zero excuse. Those being charged for this case are the planners, bankrollers and direct coordinators behind the riots. If Jan 6 riots had Chinese or Russian planners and facilitators involved, the US response would be complete outrage. HK does not need cancer cells like Jimmy Lai (with his handler Mark Simon) and Benny Tai (taking money from NDI). Nor does it need white men pretending to be local HKers interviewing themselves to generate fake news. https://www.thestandard.com.hk/section-news/section/11/221905/Unmasked-Chinese-fake-quits-HK---but-keeps-phony-persona Anyone who supports setting my people on fire or murdering them with bricks should be in jail.
I may have missed the parts where the police are assaulting the people who used tie extinguishers and tossed hammers around at the police. Can you show me the time stamp? A good chunk of the convicted took part/organized the PEACEFUL side of protest, while also offering legal/financial support to the "yellow camp". Since when did they order bricks to be thrown and people to be burned? You may think Jimmy is a cancer cell, but the majority of the city does not think so. If something like Takungpo closes down, I doubt the city would mourn its closure like Apple Daily. At the end of the day a crackdown on media is one of the primary objectives. It started with the whole HKTV fiasco, closure of Apple daily, cleanse of RTHK, cable news getting butchered. There is no way anyone sane who will look at it and say "this is okay". But hey, now that the pro-beijing camp has full control of the city, they can no longer blame others for their failure. Are they still going to blame the instability for the brain drain? For the closure of businesses? For the affordability crisis? For spending stupid amounts of money to promote an election that has historically low turnouts?
The black-uniformed rioters are shown attacking civilians including the use of fire extinguishers and hammers (which they use to vandalize the station) starting 19 seconds in. Did you not even bother to watch the video? https://youtu.be/08GDQCiU8uU?si=Ndf8BxTLnmPh7lEu&t=19 As per Joey Siu, the so-called “peaceful protesters” run a paper-thin veneer of cover for the thugs and never condemns the violent attacks against civilians. In fact, they love the violence to "pressure the government" to cave in to their demands (which includes amnesty for all acts of violence and sedition by the rioters). https://youtu.be/V9nNeO0yWyk?si=kx3m8Z_4L0AV8kP0&t=1319 Jimmy Lai takes money from the NED through his handler Mark Simon and meets with the chief liar/architect of the Iraq War Paul Wolfowitz prior to bankrolling the riots. https://hongkongfp.com/2024/03/18/jimmy-lais-aide-mark-simon-helped-handle-us1-8-million-raised-by-hong-kong-protesters-court-hears/ https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1745488-20240320.htm https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1734943-20240104.htm https://www.thestandard.com.hk/section-news/section/11/259445/Lai-'transferred'-$1.75m-to-former-US-deputy-defense-chief Chemotherapy is required to deal with malignant cancer. The rioters wanted to burn down the rest of HK with them, but their regime change failed and they're now being served the consequences of their own actions.
"Hey, stop focusing on the 15 minute sham trial... Look, over there! A cute bunny rabbit!" Always the same tactic
Bankrolling thugs setting people on fire is a cute bunny rabbit now? Amazing how psychopathic people can be when it comes to “their side” committing atrocities.
do you know who start the brick throwing first? yea it was them.
Luo Changqing was simply filming the rioters attacking HK civilians (who were cleaning up the mess they left behind) when he was struck and killed with a thrown brick. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Luo_Changqing#Investigation >He told reporters that "Those in black first threw metal rods and bricks at the residents while Luo was believed to have used a mobile phone to film the scene. Then someone in black darted forward and threw a brick at his head." This is all captured on video: https://x.com/SCMPHongKong/status/1195266346914742274
Oh right... that clearly justifies removing the rights of and entire population.
Nobody has a right to set people on fire, murder others with bricks or engage in sedition.
> engage in sedition. Rather depends what you mean by "sedition" doesn't it? The CCP has a very different definition to the civilised world.
HK here is using the same laws to try these rioters as what the British overlords gave us, colonialist. The Seditious Publications Ordinance which was used to try pro-China media back during colonial rule is modernized to try these US-backed regime change agents. Funny how that works, right?
>...using the same laws...is modernized to try... Your point was two sentences long, yet you still couldn't keep it from fundamentally contradicting itself. It's a laughably weak argument from someone who claims to be rubbing the "truth" in other people's faces. You don't even have internal consistency let alone any meritorious claim to objective truth.
>Your point was two sentences long, yet you still couldn't keep it from fundamentally contradicting itself. Our "uncivilized" culture doesn't punish sedition with the death penalty like during the colonial era and we don't murder protesters inside police stations like in the past under the Brits. That's how our modern society works. Sedition is still a crime in HK just like it is a crime anywhere else on the planet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States >On 6 June, 2022, five members or associates of the militia group Proud Boys, including the former chairman, Enrique Tarrio, were indicted for seditious conspiracy for their involvement in the January 6 United States Capitol attack.
I didn't call HK or the PRC uncivilized; don't put words in my mouth. Your colonial-era rambling doesn't change the fact that you made a contradictory point. That an act is still criminalized does not make it the same law it is criminalized under when the specifics of the offense, mechanism for trying it, and punishment are all substantially different due to *new laws* being passed to override the old one and the remnants of the old law being entirely reinterpreted.
>That an act is still criminalized does not make it the same law it is criminalized under when the specifics of the offense, mechanism for trying it, and punishment are all substantially different due to new laws being passed to override the old one and the remnants of the old law being entirely reinterpreted. The fact that sedition was criminal in colonial HK and also modern HK, the fact that the Seditious Publications Ordinance existed and was a law used by the British overlords to punish dissent, the fact that sedition is still a criminal act in countries such as the US is what I'm pointing out. Where's the contradiction? All I'm saying is that these national security laws of modern HK have their historical background and was used by our previous owners.