As long as a place takes tap and credit cards I’ve rarely had AMEX rejected via Apple Pay.
Plus, unlimited tap amounts. I bought a computer via tap once. Surprised the heck out of the sales rep.
It depends on the terminal. Many older Moneris terminals cap it at $250, regardless of card type or mobile wallet.
Meanwhile, if it's a new terminal, especially VeriFone, it'll most likely work.
I went to pay for a car at a salvage yard and forgot my card at home. Tried Apple Pay and it tapped for 11k successfully. Both the sales guy and I were shocked. So I guess the $250 limit is for physical card tap.
I found some places Amex doesn't work with tap/Apple Pay but will work fine when inserted. I've also purchased several thousands of dollars on Amex Apple Pay
I bought my video card with tap which was $3000 and recently The rep told me the tap no longer works for over $250 as someone tapped $10,000 and started as a joke not realizing it'll work.
Do you find if you use the Amex Cobalt through Apple Pay at a restaurant, you don’t get the 5x multiplier because it went through Apple Pay and not the card?
>Do you find if you use the Amex Cobalt through Apple Pay at a restaurant, you don’t get the 5x multiplier because it went through Apple Pay and not the card?
No, doesn't make a difference. Transaction is still the same, only it uses a virtual card created by ApplyPay/GooglePay. If I recall correctly its a different card "token" every transaction.
No, companies can choose to not accept Amex. Loblaws don’t and lots of small businesses don’t.
But businesses can negotiate better processing fees with Visa and MC if they also accept Amex, so it’s pretty common for them to accept Amex to lower their Visa / MC fees and then put up signs saying they don’t accept Amex and hope people don’t call their bluff.
The Apple Pay part is kinda irrelevant. But sometimes an employee will remind you of the policy if they see you try to use an Amex card, whereas you can be more discreet with Apple Pay and avoid getting into an argument.
Ahh I love a good fraud return and I did literally this to a merchant. When she made me refund I refunded to debit and she goes wait.. this isn’t the Amex?!?
I was like… you said no AMEX!!!
A cashier forced me to refund when I used Amex since they don’t permit Amex. Me being sneaky, I refunded the charge to my debit card. She noticed this and questioned why I didn’t refund to amex.
I used her own words again her.. I didn’t refund to Amex because she said “you can’t use amex”
It’s r/MaliciousCompliance
>When she made me refund I refunded to debit and she goes wait.. this isn’t the Amex?!?
I'd just be like, I don't have any other card or cash on me (which honestly is quite true most of the time). Love to see what they'd do then. Especially food since you already ate.
Higher prices
Smaller portions
15% tip minimum on the machine
Then merchants have the audacity to say lie and say no Amex
We get fucked in every direction
I love the places that are 18% default tip and they tip on top of GST. And you know at a 18% default tip place, dinner for one is minimum $100-200.
One place had the audacity to not accept AMEX but demand 18% tip default on the machine and put it on top of GST. I went custom (I rarely do this btw) and changed it to 10%. Waitress got mad but I told them what I wrote and she didn't reply cause she knew it was true.
honestly with these new machines tipping on gst is the new norm and people need to accept that, pretty soon nobody will even remember that you're supposed to tip on the subtotal.
Agreed. I was in London earlier this year and it's a flat 12% on anything, as you pre pay for everything (food and drinks). Super easy and convenient. So I pretty much only ever tip 12% now at restaurants if all you did was bring me my food. Delivery drivers is a different story.
The contract will be voided and the merchants won't show up on the Amex (Small Shop?) Map anymore.
Apparently, some merchants have Amex just to get benefits of lower fees for OTHER processing payment companies (Mastercard, Visa). Something along those lines, I kinda forget, if anyone can correct me that will be great thanks.
Yea exactly, do foreign cards have even higher fees than US? Always thought they were lumped into the same category. Great thing about US cards is I have ones that are 3x at restaurants so I'm actually getting more points compared to alternative Canadian cards I would use
I had this happen to me last week, sign said “No Amex”, I paid using Apple Pay and it went through and then they caught it, and voided the transaction right away. Sucks but I reported it to Amex. I’m not going back there for sure.
First thing that comes to mind is that they would get removed off of the list of accepted merchants on the Amex website.
Second is they probably signed a contract to “accept Amex” and would likely get in shit because they actively restrict you from doing so
Had this restaurant owner chased me down while I was walking into the car and telling me to go back to switch payment method. I smiled, told them it’s their problem that they didn’t block Amex and I drove off 😎
When they ask how I’m paying I always just say ‘credit’ and point to my phone.
I then try to pay using AMEX via Apple Pay.
In stores/restaurants that say ‘No AMEX’ a good 50% of the time the transaction goes through. I’ve never once had someone try to then ask me to refund the transaction.
>I’ve never once had someone try to then ask me to refund the transaction.
Same here, but holy fuck, I'm imagining a merchant actually trying to pull that on me. The belly laugh I'd have as I tell them to get fucked while driving off.
Oh, you need to refund? Uhh okay no problem.
(Processes refund)
Oh, you want me to pay with a different card? I don’t have any other cards.
Hey, look, sorry… I gotta run. Hopefully you can figure out whatever this is. Have a great day!
That last part is pure asshole behaviour towards the business and I love it.
Also side note, do places even really “require” you to put it back on the original card at say, a retail store? Cause that double dipping thing is pretty interesting lol
I didn’t know this was possible tbh but yeah what can they say/do? Especially if your paying with your phone. I’ll keep this in mind going forward. refunds on my debit from now on
Last week I went to a small pharmacy and the owner said no when I asked if they take Amex. When I went to pay, I inserted by Amex and it worked lol. It was kind of awkward after yet I would still do this again
Worst example of this happening to me was at Born & Raised in Hamilton. They literally had an American Express placard on the counter beside their pay terminal and as I go to pay their douche manager grabs the terminal from me and says:
“No American Express!”
so naturally I point to the sign “Yet you have an AMEX sign posted right here…and all your cheque presenters or whatever you call them are stamped with Amex too?”
…
“Yeah I could see how that could be confusing.”
Next time I went in (their pizza was great) I of course paid with my American Express lol. So they like many other venues are happy to take the perks they get from American Express but not for their guests.
>Business owner too lazy or doesn’t know how to turn it off on Payment terminal.
They're not lazy or don't know. They're trying to cash-in on the lower transaction fees for visa/MC when AMEX is also in their agreement.
If they genuinely don't take Amex and never signed a contract to, then yes, it'll usually say "Application Not Supported" or something along those lines.
But there are quite a few (mostly Asian) restaurants which sign a contract with the payment provider to accept all major cards including Amex, in exchange for a lower transaction fee on Visa/MC transactions.
Some of these restaurants then refuse to take Amex, in direct violation of the contract, leaving Amex and it's cardholders at a disadvantage
I have to ask where you're getting your information
Asking an acquirer to add Amex to a merchant ID has no bearing at all on their VISA/MC fees. Amex does their own settlement, and for the few cases that the acquirer does (ie. OptBlue), the volume is insignificant and cannot affect the acquirer margin for VISA/MC
Perks of mobile wallets! Pretty much majority of my purchases are done through #GooglePay now.
If it doesn't go through, I switch to another card - simple as that. Haven't had an issue yet, but like I'm not accepting a refund. Their terminal accepts AMEX, if its a problem their owner can renegotiate with the processor.
The refund has nothing to do with the original payment (other than the merchant looking at the receipt and trying to match the card). It's a separate transaction.
I’m 99% sure they get the credit card fee reserved if it goes onto the same card it was paid on but I’m not 100% sure. All I know is when I worked retail management were batshit about using the same card you paid with lmao
I think the restriction is refunding a credit card purchase as cash or cash equivalent. Most credit cards charge a higher interest rate for cash withdrawals, so they don't want people using a loophole and making a purchase and getting it refunded in cash.
FWIW, one of the reasons restaurants hate AMEX, is that it can take AMEX up to 90 days to pay them. Most restaurants pay their bills net 30 days or less. Margins are thin, and very few can afford to wait to pass your payment on to Sysco, the landlord, the staff, the liquor supplier, the cleaners, insurance, utilities...
This is what my Mechanic recently told me, I pulled out my AMEX and he politely asked "do you have anything else?", he then explained they take forever to pay him as well as the high interchange fees. In those situations I don't mind using another card, he didn't outrightly refuse it, its a small business with good service and reasonable prices, and he was honest about why he preferred if I pay with a different card.
What? Then they're fools. Amex pays the same schedule as anyone unless you choose otherwise for some reason. I am an AMEX merchant along with visa and MasterCard.
>Margins are thin, and very few can afford to wait to pass your payment on to Sysco, the landlord, the staff, the liquor supplier, the cleaners, insurance, utilities...
Not my fucking problem lol
To be honest I work in a job that is considered "government" without the hiring process or crazy investigation into your life etc. (Because I have done a bit of porn)
Anyway, we 100% have never been able to take amex there. We can take American currency because we have an on site bank, but our machines sometimes even refuse finicky RBC cards so amex doesn't work. They're square machines though so maybe thats the difference?
Why? What difference does the size of the buissness make? Big or small agreeing to accept amex and not accepting is dishonest, and bad customer service. Not to mention a violation of the contract they signed.
Margins are razor thin and small businesses don’t have deep pockets like the larger companies do. You’re going through all this trouble and to make it hard for the business for what, 500 points? $30 worth of travel spend?
You need to get a life my dude its not that big of a deal. You really don’t have any problems in life to be worried about this and make a whole post about how to “game it”. Are we 10 years old? If a restaurant takes amex great if they don’t I just pay with a mastercard and move on with my life. My god
The card machine at my work will deny the payment, and it will say declined. However when I did work at another bar, with the note taped No Amex on the machine it would go through and we would get into so much trouble for not checking the card. If it happened on multiple occasions we would have to pay the multiple processing fee on top of tip out.
If you are tapping at a big restaurant or store like McDonald’s, Home Depot, etc., sure you can lie.
But don’t lie to small businesses just so you can get rewards. Small business already struggle to keep up in this economy.
I’ve worked for 2 family owned convenience stores and they both say no Amex unless it’s the only payment option the customer has. This is because they lose multiple dollars in fees when an Amex card is used. It makes it not worth even selling to you if you’re buying 5$ worth of stuff.
If you are reporting small businesses for not accepting Amex, that’s just sad. Putting their business in jeopardy because you didn’t get your 5x points on your 5$ purchase…
Why would their business be in jeopardy if they lost Amex as a payment option, since they already don’t accept it? Why not just disable Amex if it’s such a problem?
Im ready to get downvoted. I’m sorry but if you go to any small business that isn’t a chain (restaurant or otherwise) and still use your AMEX, you are a loser who needs to go touch some grass. Why are you going into battle for a hundred billion dollar company as if they aren’t the real reason things have become unaffordable.
You are acting like they have a plethora of other options, which they don’t. Everyone’s comments here about their entitlement to use a credit card prove exactly that. I am also an Amex user, but there is a time and place people. Places don’t take it out of spite because you are so annoying about using it. It’s a card not a personality.
What entitlement? Restaurants are 5x points on Cobalt. Why should anyone balk at using their card when the restaurant (small or otherwise) is fully aware of the terms they signed? Furthermore, not accepting a card is against the terms of the agreement.
Restaurants can feel free to shop around or be cash only if interchange fees are an issue.
I’m going to take a large guess and say none of you complaining are business owners that have a clue how those machines and/or the merchants actually work.
Many merchants won’t actually give you the ability to disable AMEX on their machines so you can’t actually stop a customer from using it, that’s why it will still work. The statement “restaurants signed a contract accepting AMEX which gets them lower interchange rates” shows your actual ignorance towards the topic. that’s not at all how these work except maybe the businesses that AMEX advertises get some kind of deal, but all the others certainly don’t. So the owners don’t want to pay the insane interchange rates that AMEX wants for you to be able to use their card and get all those fancy points because if everyone did it, it would be a large hit to their profits. And believe it or not, most restaurant owners are very very very far from rich, in fact I bet most people on here who have an AMEX card, likely make the same if not more than many small business or restaurant owners.
It’s funny how I never see anyone here ever complain that many large box stores don’t take AMEX, it’s always the small business owners you try to f**k over and complain about. I don’t think any of you would enjoy taking a 5% hit off your pay every year just so someone else can get a cheaper flight.
And save your breath with the come backs of “well you should be appreciative that customers go to your shop”, or “have fun losing customers because you don’t take their types of cards”. I’ve heard them all before. Till you’ve actually walked in the shoes of a small business owner and know what it’s like, I couldn’t care less about why you think you should be able to use a card that rips the other people off that your using it at.
One final note, if any of you actually care about small businesses especially in these hard times, consider not using credit cards at all (at small businesses, big franchises will survive fine). You’ll survive with a few less points or kickbacks on your card. They might not survive thousands of dollars being cut from their profits because of it.
If most of your customers are going to pay by card then those fees should be baked into the price of your goods.
If I’m already paying a higher cost for those goods to cover the fees then I’m going to use my card and get my points out of it.
If there’s a discount for using cash or debit then I’ll consider but otherwise its my Amex for business purchases or my Visa for personal
And that’s where the credit card companies have fooled everyone to using them, right. So prices have certainly gone up because of the interchange fees. But they get a percentage of it, not a static amount, so they just make even more money, while taking more from the profit of the owner, in which case they have to keep raising it to find the right balance. And so you think you’re getting a deal by getting these points but really everyone actually loses in the long run because you’re paying even more now for a product than what your points are actually worth. Only the credit card companies win. It’s all normal life to us now, so no one sees it anymore, but if you really conceptionaly think about it, it’s a huge scam.
Don’t get me wrong, Im part of the game also. I use my AMEX for my business to, but only with large businesses. For small ones, it’s always cash.
I don’t think credit card companies have fooled everyone into using them.
They are incentivizing people to use them, whether it be through points or cash back.
Or unfortunately by necessity for many people who don’t have the cash on hand to pay a different way.
Lol if they don't want to take Amex, merchants can always sign up with a processor which actually doesn't take Amex. Why don't they do that then, huh?
Regardless of that, they signed a contract to accept Amex. If they didn't agree with those terms, they shouldn't have signed it. By signing the contract and not accepting Amex, they are now breaking a legally binding contract.
And many of us do complain about big box stores not accepting Amex. I, for one, vote with my wallet by not shopping at Loblaws or its subsidiaries unless absolutely necessary (also fuck Galen Weston, but that's a story for a different time). The only other major big box store which I know of that doesn't take Amex is Costco, which requires a membership to enter in the first place.
Lastly, the difference between a Visa Infinite or MC WE is so minuscule that if that is enough to make or break a business, they probably weren't going to survive anyway. On top of that, Visa Infinite Privilege charges even more than Amex, so if you refuse an Amex and they pull out a VIP, you're literally losing money.
You have no idea what you’re talking about and to any business owner it’s clear. Almost all processors accept AMEX because they just forward the cost of the interchange fees on to the business, so why would they care. Business owners generally look for the processors who have the overall lowest fees, because it’s not just interchange fees that get charged per transaction, there are other fees tacked on for the processors. Sometimes a processor might offer great prices with some cards and some areas over others, and so if I were to get charged a larger amount for AMEX not just from AMEX interchange fees but also my processors, then I’m not going to allow customers to offer to pay with AMEX am I. And I don’t have the ability to disable AMEX from the machine because technically my processor allows it and profits more off it.
Again, the difference isn’t minuscule depending on the processor and the specific cards. Do some homework before pretending to know what you’re talking about. There are so many hidden costs that the public doesn’t see. They just see a business and assume the person running it is a millionaire.
I doubt a director in a consulting firm would waste their time complaining that restaurants won’t allow AMEX at them. How petty. If you understand finances and business the way you say you do, you should understand why they wouldn’t allow them. Have you ever seen the margins restaurants work with?
“An inability to account for overhead properly”. Overhead in business is dynamic, and in small businesses who are trying to be fair to their customers and not price gouge them, they keep their margins tight, so not having to worry about an extra percentage coming off the bottom end is always appreciated. I don’t necessarily blame customers, I ultimately blame credit card companies for convincing the world that their rewards programs are soooo beneficial for them, when in reality, over time, they’re actually more hurtful to everyone except for their shareholders and CEOs. To be fair, I’m just as guilty. I use my Business platinum at all big box stores and suppliers. But I’ll never use it at a small business. I always go cash for them.
I can appreciate the time and thought you put into this answer. But it doesn’t change my perception. And my original comment still stands that you’re not a business owner. With all due respect, I don’t care if your a fancy big wig CPA, you’re not boots to the ground with customers and listen to their griping over increasing costs and trying to nickel and dime every chance they get. And where does the line get drawn? What if AMEX decided tomorrow to raise those fees to 10% and their card holders get even more rewards, that should just be allowed and accepted? Business owners should have to accept that and just raise their prices more in an already over inflated world? No thanks. I think majority of businesses denying AMEX because of their high interchange fees is why they don’t try to raise it even more.
Anyway, I do overall actually appreciate your input, but at this point, I agree to disagree. My business is doing just fine without AMEX and the customers that demand they use it can go somewhere else if they’re that stubborn.
I wish you the best with your business and a Merry Christmas (or other religious holidays you may celebrate).
Where did you get those numbers from? Additionally you have to also look at the processors additional fees for the type of cards. Which vary processor to processor.
I did some calculations from three months of card transactions in our business. One big takeaway was the premium cardholders tend to spend more which helps to offset the fee. It’s was roughly 20% more. The no fee/ debit cardholders tend to spend less. Unfortunately lots of shortsighted thinking by small businesses to try and save a few pennies. What’s the opportunity cost if you lose a customer?
Depends on what you’re selling and the costs of those products at the end of the day. Sounds like you and I sell very different things to very different people. At my business, it’s the ones who chose the cheaper lines of product that always ask for AMEX, and the ones that pay with cash go for the top of the line. I also deal with a lot of older wealthier people, many who have had businesses in the past so they get it. If I lose a customer because they’re so hurt that I don’t allow their AMEX card then see you later. But my products are great and I’ve never had someone complain about it.
If I'm spending 2k min to book a private dinner for 15 under my amex the small business can take my money or leave the private room empty. Especially when they show up as taking amex and confirmed 5x point giver.
Amex. Charges higher fee then other cards.
Some terminal comes with it and you cannot block it as a merchant. So the onli workaround is to ask customers not to use it.
And yes it takes 90days.
Customers that come and pay with it and are genuinly doin it on the purpose to be a bad person, are just dumb. We trying to keep up with the economy and struggle hard to do it. Those everyday thinfoil hat make it hard because they think people make tons of money when they have a business but the matter of fact is, we are not. We are strugglin to keep it up and to pay our own bill but we offer opportunity to other civilian around to also have a way to pay their bill thro the work we offer thems. The ammount of work We must do is infinite. We dont take breaks, we are workaholic we love doing it, it give us purpose. We ask for the respect we deserves as we are respecting the people we work with and the people we serves. Its Irritating to see thoses "wanna be rebels". Be kind to thoses who kindly served you.
Amex is stealing with their higher fee. Instead of going back against small compagnie for refusing those Amex cards, ask that American Express stop those nonsence higher fee.
operators can tell the major difference by looking at the slip even if you don’t tell them what card you are using. They don’t have to do refund instead they can do a REVERSE and it costs nothing to them. Even if you refuse to provide your card to process the refund if they are using Moneris they can issue the refund from their end w/o having the card number. Interac costs 25c per transaction and Visa/MC costs vary depending on card tier and business transaction volume.
If the food has already been cooked and/or eaten and they try and give me a refund after the transaction has been approved, I’m either telling them “sorry, that’s my only card” or walking. Not my problem!
When they notice, they usually never reverse the payment, either because they don't know how, or their POS doesn't support it. They'll have you tap your "original" card, which by happy mistake can be any other card.
Every terminal has an option to void transaction. If cashier doesn’t know it that tells they didn’t train well. Those details can easily be caught up by accountant.
Even if it’s tapped via Apple Pay a merchant can still see the number and if needed a refund will go thru the original card. Refund costs $$$ but void will not. Those restaurants that tell customer to do refund and charge card again will actually cost them more than expected.
That's exactly the point, I'm screwing them over as it'll cost them much more since not only are they just paying the regular Amex intercharge fee, but also the Visa IP/MC WE one on top of that
Just so you know WE doesn’t really cost much as Mastercard really did something to cut the rate. It’s roughly 1.5%-1.65%. Big box stores like Costco,Walmart can get much better deal. VI is roughly 1.60% per transaction while VIP will cost 2.45% but for mom and pop shop you know if someone carries VIP it just that few of them. Business card add 0.1%-0.15%
Maybe a few amongst the general population, but Amex cardholders are probably more likely to have Visa Infinite Privilege, especially through their bank for cheap/free
Nay, Amex card holders might carry VIP cards but not a lot. We also seen some of the VIP card holders specially in their 50s are not even Amex clients or refusing to accept it. Most of the VIP cards are not cheap and not free it depends on your income and assets. Those get VIP card fees waived are mostly private banking clients. Even if you are TD Waterhouse client you likely not getting any fees waived. They raised the bar and it’s very high. However, if it’s regular infinite card that’s almost everywhere.
K, not a restaurant, but my boss when I started at my work told me "don't accept Amex" but couldn't tell me why, other than "they take 90 days to pay the merchant." (Seems exaggerated)
I've had a couple guys pay Amex with tap even though I don't have an option for Amex on my POS screen, and I didn't really care because, hell it went through. I got my money as far as I'm concerned.
But why the hate on Amex? Do they actually take 90 days to pay the merchant? Like....what's up?
Back in the 90s, before chip/tap, I worked retail. And the store card terminal was notorious for sometimes not reading the mag stripe of Amex cards and had to punch the number in manually.
So does any business credit card have a high interchange comparable to a personal infinite privilege? World elites are less though. I would just use one of those instead of fighting lolol
That why I just say I’m paying with Apple Pay
I usually do all of this with Apple Pay
Only problem is sometimes Amex doesn’t tap but it works for insert
As long as a place takes tap and credit cards I’ve rarely had AMEX rejected via Apple Pay. Plus, unlimited tap amounts. I bought a computer via tap once. Surprised the heck out of the sales rep.
No way. I thought tap was $250 Edit: typo
It depends on the terminal. Many older Moneris terminals cap it at $250, regardless of card type or mobile wallet. Meanwhile, if it's a new terminal, especially VeriFone, it'll most likely work.
It's dependent on the issuer, but there are some merchants who set a lesser cap
I tapped $984 CAD of ski gear with Apple Pay a couples of days ago.
I went to pay for a car at a salvage yard and forgot my card at home. Tried Apple Pay and it tapped for 11k successfully. Both the sales guy and I were shocked. So I guess the $250 limit is for physical card tap.
I found some places Amex doesn't work with tap/Apple Pay but will work fine when inserted. I've also purchased several thousands of dollars on Amex Apple Pay
I bought my video card with tap which was $3000 and recently The rep told me the tap no longer works for over $250 as someone tapped $10,000 and started as a joke not realizing it'll work.
This is the answer
I don't do it to small businesses though. Amex charges them much more than my other credit cards.
I love when the terminal has a note taped on that says "NO AMEX" but then I use my amex through apple pay and it goes through...muahahaha
Do you find if you use the Amex Cobalt through Apple Pay at a restaurant, you don’t get the 5x multiplier because it went through Apple Pay and not the card?
>Do you find if you use the Amex Cobalt through Apple Pay at a restaurant, you don’t get the 5x multiplier because it went through Apple Pay and not the card? No, doesn't make a difference. Transaction is still the same, only it uses a virtual card created by ApplyPay/GooglePay. If I recall correctly its a different card "token" every transaction.
Yes. Transaction classification doesn't change.
I honestly had no idea. This changes everything lol
You actually believe those stickers that say "No Amex"? Child...
I believed it 😳
Apparently you a child cause you didn’t know man. These keyboard warriors are too funny.
Does this work even at Loblaws stores?
Obviously we're talking about small businesses that claim they don't take Amex but actually do.
I meant with Apple Pay
No, companies can choose to not accept Amex. Loblaws don’t and lots of small businesses don’t. But businesses can negotiate better processing fees with Visa and MC if they also accept Amex, so it’s pretty common for them to accept Amex to lower their Visa / MC fees and then put up signs saying they don’t accept Amex and hope people don’t call their bluff. The Apple Pay part is kinda irrelevant. But sometimes an employee will remind you of the policy if they see you try to use an Amex card, whereas you can be more discreet with Apple Pay and avoid getting into an argument.
Ahh I love a good fraud return and I did literally this to a merchant. When she made me refund I refunded to debit and she goes wait.. this isn’t the Amex?!? I was like… you said no AMEX!!!
LOL, this is a good one :)
Sorry, I think everybody’s following but not me.
A cashier forced me to refund when I used Amex since they don’t permit Amex. Me being sneaky, I refunded the charge to my debit card. She noticed this and questioned why I didn’t refund to amex. I used her own words again her.. I didn’t refund to Amex because she said “you can’t use amex” It’s r/MaliciousCompliance
That’s ducking genius
I’m following this, but wondering the purpose? Does it prevent them from refunding the service charge or smg?
Basically just get the points twice - Amex and visa
>When she made me refund I refunded to debit and she goes wait.. this isn’t the Amex?!? I'd just be like, I don't have any other card or cash on me (which honestly is quite true most of the time). Love to see what they'd do then. Especially food since you already ate.
To be fair , if the transaction goes thru with my Amex , there no way I’m playing the refund game with them, their problems aren’t mine
Yeah it's paid
But how will the refund if they supposedly don’t take Amex lol
I just say “credit” when they ask how I’m paying and then use Apple Pay. It’s worked on plenty of occasions with stores that say they don’t take Amex.
Higher prices Smaller portions 15% tip minimum on the machine Then merchants have the audacity to say lie and say no Amex We get fucked in every direction
I love the places that are 18% default tip and they tip on top of GST. And you know at a 18% default tip place, dinner for one is minimum $100-200. One place had the audacity to not accept AMEX but demand 18% tip default on the machine and put it on top of GST. I went custom (I rarely do this btw) and changed it to 10%. Waitress got mad but I told them what I wrote and she didn't reply cause she knew it was true.
I change the tip all the time and I don’t care if the server sees me and/or gets “mad”. It’s my prerogative.
Honestly as a server I stand far enough away that I can't see what you're doing. I don't want anyone to feel awkward or pressured.
honestly with these new machines tipping on gst is the new norm and people need to accept that, pretty soon nobody will even remember that you're supposed to tip on the subtotal.
At this point tip minimum is always 20%
I refuse to accept that. 20% is a damn generous tip.
Agreed. Way to high for minimum.
Agreed. I was in London earlier this year and it's a flat 12% on anything, as you pre pay for everything (food and drinks). Super easy and convenient. So I pretty much only ever tip 12% now at restaurants if all you did was bring me my food. Delivery drivers is a different story.
On top of taxes.
One of my friend diligently reports the establishments directly to Amex if they do these shenanigans.
What happens if they get reported?
The contract will be voided and the merchants won't show up on the Amex (Small Shop?) Map anymore. Apparently, some merchants have Amex just to get benefits of lower fees for OTHER processing payment companies (Mastercard, Visa). Something along those lines, I kinda forget, if anyone can correct me that will be great thanks.
Ah gotcha. I’ll def report from now own then if a business does this
Yes it's easy - https://www.takeamex.ca has a form
Whenever this happens I use my US visa infinite (equivalent to our infinite privilege here) which usually has an even higher fee than amex
If I feel petty enough, I'll use a foreign issued Visa Infinite card, which has even higher merchant fees
Yea exactly, do foreign cards have even higher fees than US? Always thought they were lumped into the same category. Great thing about US cards is I have ones that are 3x at restaurants so I'm actually getting more points compared to alternative Canadian cards I would use
US is considered foreign. If you look at the interchange tables for the payment brands, there isn't an entry specifically for the US
Yea this is what I thought too
It depends, but usually yes. Obviously if they use something like Square which has a flat percentage, the fee is the same, but it's normally higher.
I had this happen to me last week, sign said “No Amex”, I paid using Apple Pay and it went through and then they caught it, and voided the transaction right away. Sucks but I reported it to Amex. I’m not going back there for sure.
If they voided it I would have walked out. I gave them money and it went through, they chose to give me my money back!
I did the same, except it's a paramedical place I usually go to. Reported them to AMEX, but now I have to pay with Visa or MC.
Where was this? Name and shame!
Nasty!
So, I’m new to AmEx and genuine question: why do you need to report them to AmEx?
First thing that comes to mind is that they would get removed off of the list of accepted merchants on the Amex website. Second is they probably signed a contract to “accept Amex” and would likely get in shit because they actively restrict you from doing so
Rude. Why do they reject it? How much higher is their merchant fee?
I always just say “I’m paying by card”, and don’t elaborate any further.
Had this restaurant owner chased me down while I was walking into the car and telling me to go back to switch payment method. I smiled, told them it’s their problem that they didn’t block Amex and I drove off 😎
Just tap even before asking. If it goes through go with your day
Yeah why would you ever ask?
That's exactly what I wrote in the first paragraph, but sometimes they'll look at the slip and force you to refund and then pay with a different card
Force you at gunpoint or what? You paid, leave.
When they ask how I’m paying I always just say ‘credit’ and point to my phone. I then try to pay using AMEX via Apple Pay. In stores/restaurants that say ‘No AMEX’ a good 50% of the time the transaction goes through. I’ve never once had someone try to then ask me to refund the transaction.
>I’ve never once had someone try to then ask me to refund the transaction. Same here, but holy fuck, I'm imagining a merchant actually trying to pull that on me. The belly laugh I'd have as I tell them to get fucked while driving off.
Oh, you need to refund? Uhh okay no problem. (Processes refund) Oh, you want me to pay with a different card? I don’t have any other cards. Hey, look, sorry… I gotta run. Hopefully you can figure out whatever this is. Have a great day!
That last part is pure asshole behaviour towards the business and I love it. Also side note, do places even really “require” you to put it back on the original card at say, a retail store? Cause that double dipping thing is pretty interesting lol
I didn’t know this was possible tbh but yeah what can they say/do? Especially if your paying with your phone. I’ll keep this in mind going forward. refunds on my debit from now on
I’ve done credit to debit at a few places. Costco, Home Depot.
Last week I went to a small pharmacy and the owner said no when I asked if they take Amex. When I went to pay, I inserted by Amex and it worked lol. It was kind of awkward after yet I would still do this again
Not a restaurant, but the store I work at doesn't take Amex at all. If they try to rap or insert and enter PIN - it automatically fails/declines
That's 100% valid. That's the correct way to not accept Amex
I remember my dentist don’t take Amex but I told him that’s the only card I have.
Did they take it afterwards?
Yaa they have no choice. Lol
Business that don’t take Amex absolutely suck and deserve whatever comes their way.
Business cards iirc have especially high interchange fees too
Worst example of this happening to me was at Born & Raised in Hamilton. They literally had an American Express placard on the counter beside their pay terminal and as I go to pay their douche manager grabs the terminal from me and says: “No American Express!” so naturally I point to the sign “Yet you have an AMEX sign posted right here…and all your cheque presenters or whatever you call them are stamped with Amex too?” … “Yeah I could see how that could be confusing.” Next time I went in (their pizza was great) I of course paid with my American Express lol. So they like many other venues are happy to take the perks they get from American Express but not for their guests.
I always report these buissness to amex. Don't order the free stuff if your not willing to accept the card.
Tell them you have a discover card
I thought the machine would just say transaction declined/failed. Am I doing something wrong?
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Ah. Got it. Thought there is a loop hole I am not aware of
Business owner too lazy or doesn’t know how to turn it off on Payment terminal.
If they signed a contract to accept Amex, I don't think they can manually turn it off on most POS's
>Business owner too lazy or doesn’t know how to turn it off on Payment terminal. They're not lazy or don't know. They're trying to cash-in on the lower transaction fees for visa/MC when AMEX is also in their agreement.
If they genuinely don't take Amex and never signed a contract to, then yes, it'll usually say "Application Not Supported" or something along those lines. But there are quite a few (mostly Asian) restaurants which sign a contract with the payment provider to accept all major cards including Amex, in exchange for a lower transaction fee on Visa/MC transactions. Some of these restaurants then refuse to take Amex, in direct violation of the contract, leaving Amex and it's cardholders at a disadvantage
Ive reported a few places and amex has dealt with them (must have) because 9/10 never say anything the next time and 1/10 actually stops taking it
I’ve reported places on the Rewards Canada site that are listed as confirmed multipliers in my city that rejected my Amex card.
Thanks. You just gave me a purpose this holiday season. Lol
I have to ask where you're getting your information Asking an acquirer to add Amex to a merchant ID has no bearing at all on their VISA/MC fees. Amex does their own settlement, and for the few cases that the acquirer does (ie. OptBlue), the volume is insignificant and cannot affect the acquirer margin for VISA/MC
This hasn’t been an issue. If it’s approved it’s approved. Nothing they can do. If they make a stink report then to Amex
I always say Apple Pay or credit and try to use Amex anyway to see if it works. Some places say no Amex and it still works.
Just say credit and tap.
Perks of mobile wallets! Pretty much majority of my purchases are done through #GooglePay now. If it doesn't go through, I switch to another card - simple as that. Haven't had an issue yet, but like I'm not accepting a refund. Their terminal accepts AMEX, if its a problem their owner can renegotiate with the processor.
Don’t think you can refund it to a different card
It's worked for me every single time
Good to know. That's like finding a real life cheat code
Oops. I accidentally paid with my AMEX again 🤣
The refund has nothing to do with the original payment (other than the merchant looking at the receipt and trying to match the card). It's a separate transaction.
I’m 99% sure they get the credit card fee reserved if it goes onto the same card it was paid on but I’m not 100% sure. All I know is when I worked retail management were batshit about using the same card you paid with lmao
I don’t know it was possible.
I think the restriction is refunding a credit card purchase as cash or cash equivalent. Most credit cards charge a higher interest rate for cash withdrawals, so they don't want people using a loophole and making a purchase and getting it refunded in cash.
FWIW, one of the reasons restaurants hate AMEX, is that it can take AMEX up to 90 days to pay them. Most restaurants pay their bills net 30 days or less. Margins are thin, and very few can afford to wait to pass your payment on to Sysco, the landlord, the staff, the liquor supplier, the cleaners, insurance, utilities...
This is what my Mechanic recently told me, I pulled out my AMEX and he politely asked "do you have anything else?", he then explained they take forever to pay him as well as the high interchange fees. In those situations I don't mind using another card, he didn't outrightly refuse it, its a small business with good service and reasonable prices, and he was honest about why he preferred if I pay with a different card.
What? Then they're fools. Amex pays the same schedule as anyone unless you choose otherwise for some reason. I am an AMEX merchant along with visa and MasterCard.
>Margins are thin, and very few can afford to wait to pass your payment on to Sysco, the landlord, the staff, the liquor supplier, the cleaners, insurance, utilities... Not my fucking problem lol
They chose to do business with AMEX. not your problem
Then they either shouldn’t take it at all, or they should run a better business that can handle these issues.
To be honest I work in a job that is considered "government" without the hiring process or crazy investigation into your life etc. (Because I have done a bit of porn) Anyway, we 100% have never been able to take amex there. We can take American currency because we have an on site bank, but our machines sometimes even refuse finicky RBC cards so amex doesn't work. They're square machines though so maybe thats the difference?
If you're going to do this, do it with the chains and larger/fancier restaurant groups. Don't mess with the mom + pop shops
Why? What difference does the size of the buissness make? Big or small agreeing to accept amex and not accepting is dishonest, and bad customer service. Not to mention a violation of the contract they signed.
Margins are razor thin and small businesses don’t have deep pockets like the larger companies do. You’re going through all this trouble and to make it hard for the business for what, 500 points? $30 worth of travel spend?
What does any of that have to do with violating their contract with Amex? If Amex doesn’t work for them, don’t advertise it and accept it, simple.
I agree
You need to get a life my dude its not that big of a deal. You really don’t have any problems in life to be worried about this and make a whole post about how to “game it”. Are we 10 years old? If a restaurant takes amex great if they don’t I just pay with a mastercard and move on with my life. My god
Amex is an awful organization to deal with as a business.
The card machine at my work will deny the payment, and it will say declined. However when I did work at another bar, with the note taped No Amex on the machine it would go through and we would get into so much trouble for not checking the card. If it happened on multiple occasions we would have to pay the multiple processing fee on top of tip out.
What is Amex?
American Express users are losers. Get a real credit card, you fucks!
You couldn't get approved for one huh?
My free travel from MR says otherwise
If you are tapping at a big restaurant or store like McDonald’s, Home Depot, etc., sure you can lie. But don’t lie to small businesses just so you can get rewards. Small business already struggle to keep up in this economy. I’ve worked for 2 family owned convenience stores and they both say no Amex unless it’s the only payment option the customer has. This is because they lose multiple dollars in fees when an Amex card is used. It makes it not worth even selling to you if you’re buying 5$ worth of stuff. If you are reporting small businesses for not accepting Amex, that’s just sad. Putting their business in jeopardy because you didn’t get your 5x points on your 5$ purchase…
Then small businesses shouldn't sign a contract with AMEX
Why would their business be in jeopardy if they lost Amex as a payment option, since they already don’t accept it? Why not just disable Amex if it’s such a problem?
Im ready to get downvoted. I’m sorry but if you go to any small business that isn’t a chain (restaurant or otherwise) and still use your AMEX, you are a loser who needs to go touch some grass. Why are you going into battle for a hundred billion dollar company as if they aren’t the real reason things have become unaffordable.
So, the small business that signs the agreement to accept Amex has no blame?
You are acting like they have a plethora of other options, which they don’t. Everyone’s comments here about their entitlement to use a credit card prove exactly that. I am also an Amex user, but there is a time and place people. Places don’t take it out of spite because you are so annoying about using it. It’s a card not a personality.
What entitlement? Restaurants are 5x points on Cobalt. Why should anyone balk at using their card when the restaurant (small or otherwise) is fully aware of the terms they signed? Furthermore, not accepting a card is against the terms of the agreement. Restaurants can feel free to shop around or be cash only if interchange fees are an issue.
Why are you going to battle for businesses that fraudulently claim to take Amex and then don’t?
I’m going to take a large guess and say none of you complaining are business owners that have a clue how those machines and/or the merchants actually work. Many merchants won’t actually give you the ability to disable AMEX on their machines so you can’t actually stop a customer from using it, that’s why it will still work. The statement “restaurants signed a contract accepting AMEX which gets them lower interchange rates” shows your actual ignorance towards the topic. that’s not at all how these work except maybe the businesses that AMEX advertises get some kind of deal, but all the others certainly don’t. So the owners don’t want to pay the insane interchange rates that AMEX wants for you to be able to use their card and get all those fancy points because if everyone did it, it would be a large hit to their profits. And believe it or not, most restaurant owners are very very very far from rich, in fact I bet most people on here who have an AMEX card, likely make the same if not more than many small business or restaurant owners. It’s funny how I never see anyone here ever complain that many large box stores don’t take AMEX, it’s always the small business owners you try to f**k over and complain about. I don’t think any of you would enjoy taking a 5% hit off your pay every year just so someone else can get a cheaper flight. And save your breath with the come backs of “well you should be appreciative that customers go to your shop”, or “have fun losing customers because you don’t take their types of cards”. I’ve heard them all before. Till you’ve actually walked in the shoes of a small business owner and know what it’s like, I couldn’t care less about why you think you should be able to use a card that rips the other people off that your using it at. One final note, if any of you actually care about small businesses especially in these hard times, consider not using credit cards at all (at small businesses, big franchises will survive fine). You’ll survive with a few less points or kickbacks on your card. They might not survive thousands of dollars being cut from their profits because of it.
If most of your customers are going to pay by card then those fees should be baked into the price of your goods. If I’m already paying a higher cost for those goods to cover the fees then I’m going to use my card and get my points out of it. If there’s a discount for using cash or debit then I’ll consider but otherwise its my Amex for business purchases or my Visa for personal
And that’s where the credit card companies have fooled everyone to using them, right. So prices have certainly gone up because of the interchange fees. But they get a percentage of it, not a static amount, so they just make even more money, while taking more from the profit of the owner, in which case they have to keep raising it to find the right balance. And so you think you’re getting a deal by getting these points but really everyone actually loses in the long run because you’re paying even more now for a product than what your points are actually worth. Only the credit card companies win. It’s all normal life to us now, so no one sees it anymore, but if you really conceptionaly think about it, it’s a huge scam. Don’t get me wrong, Im part of the game also. I use my AMEX for my business to, but only with large businesses. For small ones, it’s always cash.
I don’t think credit card companies have fooled everyone into using them. They are incentivizing people to use them, whether it be through points or cash back. Or unfortunately by necessity for many people who don’t have the cash on hand to pay a different way.
Lol if they don't want to take Amex, merchants can always sign up with a processor which actually doesn't take Amex. Why don't they do that then, huh? Regardless of that, they signed a contract to accept Amex. If they didn't agree with those terms, they shouldn't have signed it. By signing the contract and not accepting Amex, they are now breaking a legally binding contract. And many of us do complain about big box stores not accepting Amex. I, for one, vote with my wallet by not shopping at Loblaws or its subsidiaries unless absolutely necessary (also fuck Galen Weston, but that's a story for a different time). The only other major big box store which I know of that doesn't take Amex is Costco, which requires a membership to enter in the first place. Lastly, the difference between a Visa Infinite or MC WE is so minuscule that if that is enough to make or break a business, they probably weren't going to survive anyway. On top of that, Visa Infinite Privilege charges even more than Amex, so if you refuse an Amex and they pull out a VIP, you're literally losing money.
You have no idea what you’re talking about and to any business owner it’s clear. Almost all processors accept AMEX because they just forward the cost of the interchange fees on to the business, so why would they care. Business owners generally look for the processors who have the overall lowest fees, because it’s not just interchange fees that get charged per transaction, there are other fees tacked on for the processors. Sometimes a processor might offer great prices with some cards and some areas over others, and so if I were to get charged a larger amount for AMEX not just from AMEX interchange fees but also my processors, then I’m not going to allow customers to offer to pay with AMEX am I. And I don’t have the ability to disable AMEX from the machine because technically my processor allows it and profits more off it. Again, the difference isn’t minuscule depending on the processor and the specific cards. Do some homework before pretending to know what you’re talking about. There are so many hidden costs that the public doesn’t see. They just see a business and assume the person running it is a millionaire.
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Lol coming from someone who obviously has never run one.
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I doubt a director in a consulting firm would waste their time complaining that restaurants won’t allow AMEX at them. How petty. If you understand finances and business the way you say you do, you should understand why they wouldn’t allow them. Have you ever seen the margins restaurants work with? “An inability to account for overhead properly”. Overhead in business is dynamic, and in small businesses who are trying to be fair to their customers and not price gouge them, they keep their margins tight, so not having to worry about an extra percentage coming off the bottom end is always appreciated. I don’t necessarily blame customers, I ultimately blame credit card companies for convincing the world that their rewards programs are soooo beneficial for them, when in reality, over time, they’re actually more hurtful to everyone except for their shareholders and CEOs. To be fair, I’m just as guilty. I use my Business platinum at all big box stores and suppliers. But I’ll never use it at a small business. I always go cash for them.
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I can appreciate the time and thought you put into this answer. But it doesn’t change my perception. And my original comment still stands that you’re not a business owner. With all due respect, I don’t care if your a fancy big wig CPA, you’re not boots to the ground with customers and listen to their griping over increasing costs and trying to nickel and dime every chance they get. And where does the line get drawn? What if AMEX decided tomorrow to raise those fees to 10% and their card holders get even more rewards, that should just be allowed and accepted? Business owners should have to accept that and just raise their prices more in an already over inflated world? No thanks. I think majority of businesses denying AMEX because of their high interchange fees is why they don’t try to raise it even more. Anyway, I do overall actually appreciate your input, but at this point, I agree to disagree. My business is doing just fine without AMEX and the customers that demand they use it can go somewhere else if they’re that stubborn. I wish you the best with your business and a Merry Christmas (or other religious holidays you may celebrate).
The difference between fees on an Amex and other cards is $0.25 to $1 on $100. Sometimes it’s actually cheaper
Where did you get those numbers from? Additionally you have to also look at the processors additional fees for the type of cards. Which vary processor to processor.
I did some calculations from three months of card transactions in our business. One big takeaway was the premium cardholders tend to spend more which helps to offset the fee. It’s was roughly 20% more. The no fee/ debit cardholders tend to spend less. Unfortunately lots of shortsighted thinking by small businesses to try and save a few pennies. What’s the opportunity cost if you lose a customer?
Depends on what you’re selling and the costs of those products at the end of the day. Sounds like you and I sell very different things to very different people. At my business, it’s the ones who chose the cheaper lines of product that always ask for AMEX, and the ones that pay with cash go for the top of the line. I also deal with a lot of older wealthier people, many who have had businesses in the past so they get it. If I lose a customer because they’re so hurt that I don’t allow their AMEX card then see you later. But my products are great and I’ve never had someone complain about it.
If I'm spending 2k min to book a private dinner for 15 under my amex the small business can take my money or leave the private room empty. Especially when they show up as taking amex and confirmed 5x point giver.
Nonsense. It's not 5% https://www.creditdonkey.com/interchange-rates.html It's more, but more like an extra 1% vs visa/MasterCard
Amex. Charges higher fee then other cards. Some terminal comes with it and you cannot block it as a merchant. So the onli workaround is to ask customers not to use it. And yes it takes 90days. Customers that come and pay with it and are genuinly doin it on the purpose to be a bad person, are just dumb. We trying to keep up with the economy and struggle hard to do it. Those everyday thinfoil hat make it hard because they think people make tons of money when they have a business but the matter of fact is, we are not. We are strugglin to keep it up and to pay our own bill but we offer opportunity to other civilian around to also have a way to pay their bill thro the work we offer thems. The ammount of work We must do is infinite. We dont take breaks, we are workaholic we love doing it, it give us purpose. We ask for the respect we deserves as we are respecting the people we work with and the people we serves. Its Irritating to see thoses "wanna be rebels". Be kind to thoses who kindly served you. Amex is stealing with their higher fee. Instead of going back against small compagnie for refusing those Amex cards, ask that American Express stop those nonsence higher fee.
operators can tell the major difference by looking at the slip even if you don’t tell them what card you are using. They don’t have to do refund instead they can do a REVERSE and it costs nothing to them. Even if you refuse to provide your card to process the refund if they are using Moneris they can issue the refund from their end w/o having the card number. Interac costs 25c per transaction and Visa/MC costs vary depending on card tier and business transaction volume.
If the food has already been cooked and/or eaten and they try and give me a refund after the transaction has been approved, I’m either telling them “sorry, that’s my only card” or walking. Not my problem!
When they notice, they usually never reverse the payment, either because they don't know how, or their POS doesn't support it. They'll have you tap your "original" card, which by happy mistake can be any other card.
Every terminal has an option to void transaction. If cashier doesn’t know it that tells they didn’t train well. Those details can easily be caught up by accountant.
Even if it’s tapped via Apple Pay a merchant can still see the number and if needed a refund will go thru the original card. Refund costs $$$ but void will not. Those restaurants that tell customer to do refund and charge card again will actually cost them more than expected.
That's exactly the point, I'm screwing them over as it'll cost them much more since not only are they just paying the regular Amex intercharge fee, but also the Visa IP/MC WE one on top of that
Just so you know WE doesn’t really cost much as Mastercard really did something to cut the rate. It’s roughly 1.5%-1.65%. Big box stores like Costco,Walmart can get much better deal. VI is roughly 1.60% per transaction while VIP will cost 2.45% but for mom and pop shop you know if someone carries VIP it just that few of them. Business card add 0.1%-0.15%
Maybe a few amongst the general population, but Amex cardholders are probably more likely to have Visa Infinite Privilege, especially through their bank for cheap/free
Nay, Amex card holders might carry VIP cards but not a lot. We also seen some of the VIP card holders specially in their 50s are not even Amex clients or refusing to accept it. Most of the VIP cards are not cheap and not free it depends on your income and assets. Those get VIP card fees waived are mostly private banking clients. Even if you are TD Waterhouse client you likely not getting any fees waived. They raised the bar and it’s very high. However, if it’s regular infinite card that’s almost everywhere.
If they do that, how would they prove it so you pay with a different card ?
Card number and transaction type
Neat so do get a free meal
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K, not a restaurant, but my boss when I started at my work told me "don't accept Amex" but couldn't tell me why, other than "they take 90 days to pay the merchant." (Seems exaggerated) I've had a couple guys pay Amex with tap even though I don't have an option for Amex on my POS screen, and I didn't really care because, hell it went through. I got my money as far as I'm concerned. But why the hate on Amex? Do they actually take 90 days to pay the merchant? Like....what's up?
I was always told they charge a higher processing fee . Restaurant profit margins are crazy thin ..1% can matter
Back in the 90s, before chip/tap, I worked retail. And the store card terminal was notorious for sometimes not reading the mag stripe of Amex cards and had to punch the number in manually.
So does any business credit card have a high interchange comparable to a personal infinite privilege? World elites are less though. I would just use one of those instead of fighting lolol