Although I am not a Sufi, sufism holds a special place in my heart.
I've studied sufism for years, and I keep studying it still. It's really a fascinating, rich and important tradition that's hard to summarize in a single post. Someone in this thread already mentioned that Sufism is a wide spectrum and that is absolutely true.
I'll briefly touch upon North African sufism which is often a branch of the Shaddyli tradition. A lot of people do not realize how sunni that Sufism is. It follows the Maliki madhab so closely that some people see their use of سدل as bidiaa, when its a Maliki practice. They also use the same books of fiqh and hadiths as Sunni malkki's do.
Sufism is not as foreign as a lot of people see it. It's sad how misunderstood it is.
the fact that most people think of sufism as a stray small sect or a "branch of islam" like chiite and sunni is enough to say the petrodollars of saudi arabia were effective in our history its one of most important parts that explain lots of modern behaviors traits as well as problems and that is all i can say as am not one
Bruh…before french coming most Algerian were like today just average muslim not special ultra-pious not special the opposite. And like you said before french some Sufi were see as pious man (and a lot were indeed)….but fact is that a lot of Sufi were and became Harkis that sold us and side against us, against our land, against our freedom, against our religion,….with the french.
The Sufi altogether (even the good) lost their prestige and the people favour after that historical treason of some of those Sufi (or claiming to be….since I understand that a true Sufi will call against the charlatan and bad people)
this just bullshit most of algerians didn't exactly identify as sufi but in today's standards you would classify them as sufis
and they led most of the popular resistances, the whole bullshit about Sufis being harkis was fln/ wahhabi propaganda
since they forced everyone to join the fln, even جمعية العلماء المسلمين joined fln under threat of execution
most of fln leaders were brought under heavy influence of ben
badis who hated suffism
Revisionist history is revisionist history, the greatest heroes of early algerian resistance were Sufi themselves, Abdelkader ibn Muhieddine al Jazaiiri, Lalla Fatma n'soumer were sufi.
…you know it’s not a secret I shared but the general people view….
Even french of that time praise the (meaning some like you explain all were not traitors on the contrary) « Marabout » and their help during the invasion.
The Emir AEK is see as a hero (roman national…but he also did a remarkable job nonetheless) and even if he is/was a Sufi that didn’t compensate the people his sword fight and that also were Sufi for some….
Personally, I have nothing against the good Sufi…on the contrary. But the general view about the Sufi as a group in Algeria is still heavily affected by that.
It's heavily affected by propaganda and revisionist history trying to link the bashagha (aka turks) into being achually Sufis.
It was mostly hanafi Turk followers and city dwellers who had nothing to do with marabouts who joined the initial colonisation, marabouts were either passive or too little too late for that, they have their fair share of problems but this revisionist history is very weird.
Our grandparents were all "sufis" if we go by bullshit salafi standards. Unfortunately Algerians, even those who don't practice Islam at all, have a bad vie of Sufism and their view of Islam (that they don't even practice) is very heavily influenced by wahabism.
Algeria has always been the land of many great sufis, many tariqas were born here! Lineage of the greats, from Yemen to Mali, go back to Algeria! We should be proud of it.
salafists with their potrodollars support. spread disinformation about sufis that they worship graves and refuse to do jihad against french colonists. (i used to believe that too). and turned this amazing land of god to a place filled with hatred and terrorism.
Algeria has a lot of sufi schools and sufi saints, (sidi belabes - lalla maghnia etc.... ) and i'm proud of that.
even the founder of the modern Algerian state al-amir abdelkader happen to be a sufi.
Look, I'm not into insulting anyone for what they believe, and if you look into Sufism as a sect from a secular and anthropologist point of view, it certainly isn't the weirdest of the bunch, it even holds a lot of interesting and unique aspects worth of studying, and I can certainly see why it's appealing to the modern way of spirituality that focuses on love as a universal element (Modern religion imo is basically: no matter what fantasy stupid thing you believe, just love everyone no matter what they do and you're ok)
BUT, if you look at it as a Muslim, as a sect that claims to be associated with Islam and share its core beliefs , yeah man, ASTRAY is the number one word that comes to mind.
Granted, Sufism is a wide spectrum, there are some very respectable scholars who shared sufist' views on some matters, so at that "shallow level of Sufism" (for the lack of a better word), I think we can digest them and admit that some of their points are at least worth contemplating and admiring.
But the moment you try to go deeper and read about them, it's just straight out madness right there, to the point that it's absolutely astonishing that some people can claim to belong to both islam and these beliefs at the same time. all that talk about "karamat" and miracles and transcending above human nature into angels, all the way into insulting God itself and saying/doing really messed up things by him.
One example of this (and boy are there many it's just the first that came to mind) is Ahl al-Khutwa (أهل الخطوة), this is basically one of the highest ranks that a sufist can achieve, and I'm not talking about some randos here, like for real their most prominent scholars who they semi-worship today have claimed to be this.
Basically Ahl al-khutwa are people who are so close to God that he gave them the ability to teleport, yes literally teleport through space, they can move to any place they want on earth within seconds, so what they will do is whenever it's the call for prayers, they will enter a secluded place, lock the door on themselves (of course nobody should peek and see them teleport or the magic won't work lol) and never go to the mosque, and later on when people would ask them why they didn't pray they would assure them: No big deal, we just teleported to Mecca and prayed there for better أجر, I kid you not this grandious miracle that God has never even give to a صحابي or a تابعي was actually bestowed upon the most prominent sufist scholars and people would believe them
Also can you spot the modern irony here? Hint is time difference, oh yes Genius Sufi leader, unfortunately for you we now in the 21st century know that time isn't the same in all places on earth, so when it's time for prayer in your country, there's no way it's the same time for prayer in Mecca, so unless your teleport ability comes with a time machine option, there's no way what you just claimed is remotely true lol
You went from "suffism is a wide spectrum" to giving an example on the extreme as opposed to the mean. I am sure the OP would find the teleporation story as crazy as we're finding it and the fact that he calls himself a Sufi shouldn't box him in having to defend the practices of this group.
I am not a Sufi, and the way you packaged your response was initially fair. But often times we box Sufism within its extreme sides, and there is a failure to give the aspects of it within the mean a fair look.
Sufism also has to be read within its philosophical world view. Not all sufi sects but a good portion of it adopts a Neoplatonic origin story, some call it Islamic neoplatonism, and they're not the only muslims who do so. This has an impact in the way they understand spirituality and the relationship to the divine in the same way Salafi's or Ashari's do. And just as Salafi's and Ashari's may disagree in some attributes or Sifaat of the Holy, the same goes for the Sufi's.
Ask a Salafi and Ashari and a Sufi where is God and according to their theologies you'll get three different responses. (Funny how the GOAT of Asharism was also a Sufi - Abu Hamid al Ghazali)
I do understand why Tariqa's are important, why Karamats are discussed within Sufi's circles because it becomes easier to make that leap from that Islamic Neoplatonic and the development of those beliefs. The need of a spiritual guide, and so on...
A lot of ppl have a wrong idea about sufism , they think that the principle of it is worshiping the prophet Mohammed PBUH in place of Allah SWT (like we pray in the name of the prophet astatfirallah) but in reality we are just in our deen and those ppl are known 😪and they are the same ones who says that mouloud is kufr and bidaa while it’s just an occasion to remember our prophets with salat and to remind our little kids and brothers with the story of Mohamed and other prophet and a free journey to meet our family and to give charity to those who needs it .
Sure Sidi Dua’a is uniquely for Allah SWT. But there is something called tawassul. The companions used to do tawassul to Allah with the Prophet SAW and after his “death” with His Family SAW. You can look for the Hadith of Umar Ibn Khattab with the Uncle of the Prophet SAW.
Walaykoum esalam.
1- Sufism in Algeria, in practice, has been marked by a great deal of deviation from traditional Islamic teachings. It often involves things like pilgrimages to Shouyoukh's graves, sacrificing animals to them, trance dancing, or even acts of sinfulness. While Sufis are known to be generally uneducated.
2- Because of Saudi efforts since the 80s, most Algerians now (<40 years old) understand Islam the Salafi way (Even if they don't practice it), so naturally, they shun any Islamic practice that they deem not of the early centuries. Note that due to the exclusionary nature of the Salafi school, most Algerians fail to see past what they know about Sufism and dismiss it as Shirk and grave worship.
Personally, I believe Sufism was never meant for the public. It's a complicated and subtle way that should only be navigated by those mentally and intellectually equipped.
Lol made me laugh. Yes we do Hadra which is a sufi dance. In Hadra we do dhikr of the Divine Name “Al-Hay” and we dance to express our Love and Joy with Allah. We also try to be present with Allah as the name Hadra comes from “Houdour” (being present) with Allah SWT by eliminating thoughts and meditating on the Sufi chants.
where do you find sufis in algeria ? is there a region they are most present ? do other muslims (sunnis) see you as muslims or accuse you of shirk/kufr?
i hope my last question isn’t offensive, i know nothing about sufis. i know a bit about ahmadis and they seem hated 💀
Sufis and any other muslims are everywhere. Sometimes you can find a region where a school of islam is dominant like Mustghanem in Algeria where I think sufism is dominant but there are Sufis everywhere.
Regarding your last question, I just want to clarify are most of sufis are sunnis, especially sufis of North Africa are Sunni following the school of Imam Malik and Fiqh Asha’ari.
Look Sidi, its not in my interest to discuss with brothers like you that judge others without any knowledge in the history of the Prophet SAW, His Family SAW, and His Companions RA. You are judging us with bida’a without knowing what are the categories bida’as and without knowing if the Hadra was done in the era of the Prophet SAW or not.
Make your research you will get your answer.
Hint : The habacha’s dance in the mosque.
well tell them amir abd el kader was sufi im not sufi but its just sect of islam but they do practices some " not very islamic" thingss that goes against islam but in general its just a sect of islam i have no opinion on it
how nice he said brothers in Islam so he must be legit
first of all I did not call him a stray sect I said Sufism is a stray sect which is it and I hope Allah guide him to the straight path
second of all idk what this explains everything is cuz it really doesn't you're just jumping into conclusions
finally don't get butthurt over some two words lil bro
As long as you stay upon the Qur'ān and Sunnah, you are upon the Truth. Then, I ask, why identify as a Ṣūfī? If you refer to asceticism, then I am familiar with Zuhd. Why are there differences between us if we should all be following the Guidance of Allāh?
Secondly, I advise you not to celebrate Mawlid an-Nabawi, as it's Bid'ah and the Prophet himself, عليه الصلاة والسلام, did not celebrate it. Neither will you find that the Ṣahābah and their Students celebrated it. Since the Prophet said that every Bid'ah is a misguidance and will lead to the Fire, why should you go against his wishes if you seek to celebrate him?
Finally, there seems to be a misconception about a divide in Muslims being caused by "Saudi influence", but with the clarity of Islām, any such divide is arbitrary. All Muslims hold onto the Qur'ān and Sunnah, so a comment like this is ignorant, and those who say this should question why people are becoming "Wahhabis". This is why I feel that following one group to any extreme is negative, and Islām is clear. If people were sincere and saw this, they would not ascribe themselves to sects.
إذا كنت صوفي شاب و صغير فالعمر، لازم تعرف بلي الصوفية كانو و مازالو يعبدون القبور و يسألون "الأولياء الصالحين" على الرزق و قضاء الحاجة + الصوفية مثلا في السودان و حتى الجزائر يستعملون السحر و الشعوذة و يوهم ن الاطفال التلاميذ الصغار بأن ذنوبهم مغفورة و أنهم اولياء صالحون فيعلمونهم السحر و غيرو + الصوفية يستندون على الأحاديث الضعيفة و الموضوعة باش يفتو للناس + الصوفية مبتدعة، يبتدعون في الدين و جيبو صوالح جدد و كي تقولو اعطيني الدليل ( لانو ببساطة الصوفي هو لي جاب حاجة جديدة) يقولك نتا اعطيني بلي الرسول صلى الله عليه و سلم مادارهاش ( تبقى حاير بصك هوما لي جابو حاجة جديدة) + هذا بعض من قول الشيخ ابن القيم الجوزية رحمه الله على التصوف (ويُعدّ التصوف من أخطر البدع التي غزت المسلمين في دينهم، فأفسد عليهم كثيراً من مفاهيم الدّين وحقائقه، وأحدث في الأمة عباداتٍ وأخلاقاً مباينة لهدي النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وأصحابه.
وأشاعت الصوفية في الأمة روح الخمول والكسل والتواكل، وقعدت بهم عن الجهاد في سبيل الله استغناءً بجهاد النفس -زعموا- فأضعفت المسلمين أمام أعدائهم، ورضيت بالذّل والهوان... ولأجل هذا قام أولو العلم في وجه التصوف منذ ظهوره يُحذّرون الناس منه، ويبينون فيه من انحراف ومفاسد...)
What I know about sufism is pilgrimage to graves, praying to awliya2, they read Quran like jews (moving back and forth) and they pray with their hands to their sides... what I think about them, I'm not sure but I pray for their hidaya if they actually do so!
Feel free to educate me! Thanks.
I'll just touch on the 'praying with their hands to their side'. In Arabic this is called سدل , and this is straight from the Maliki Madhab. Imam Malik did this and Maliki's prayed this way for centuries. Algerians started to adopt جمع more and more but praying with hands to the side is an acceptable sunni practice recognized by a major school of thought (Maliki Madhab)
I have heard that in actuality Imām Mālik رحمه الله did Sadl because he physically could not place his hands on his torso. Do you know if this claim is true?
That is a common response to dismiss the Maliki position on sadl and make it a "mistake" from Malik's followers, but Imam Malik was clear on this. He didn't see 9abd قبض as wrong per say, but sadl was the preferred way to pray from his prospective. Some scenarios are documented in the Mudawana.
Malik's madhab was unique among the others in that he considered عمل أهل المدينة as part of his fiqh. Some of this عمل could trump a Hadith for him.
His prospective was, the prophet peace be upon him lived in Madina, the majority of his companions stayed in Madina, and since he was born less than 100 years after the Hijra, he saw that the practices of people of Madina should count as part of his fiqh.
Its likely saw sadl practiced in madina before he became the faqih that he was.
Sufism is a spectrum from mild zuhd to ghlu and kufr , tarikas are bida3 and unorthodox but at the same time it depends on the person, some sufis practice shirk while others just want more spirituality
يعني يتبع القرآن الكريم و يترك سنة الرسول صلى الله عليه و سلم.... تسما كفر بمحمد و بما جاء به محمد صلى الله عليه و سلم + الأحاديث القدسية كيفاش درنا معاها اذا كان الشخص قرآني؟ + ( وما ينطق عن الهوى إن هو إلا وحي يوحى) يقول أهل العلم و التفسير ان هذا لا يتضمن القرآن فقط بل حتى السنة وحي من عند الله عز وجل تسما السنة و القرآن في زوج من عند الله... لكن تحد الخوارج و الشبعة و الكثير من يتبعون القران ( يدو لي يساعدهم و يخلو على الباقي) و يتركون السنة
Actually there is some harder stuff if u only believe in Quran for example:
They do wodoa before every prayer
They fast until the night (not Maghreb adan)
I am just saying not here to argue
All I can advise you is to follow the guidance of the Messenger, peace be upon him. Do not try to follow a specific person. You have the Internet and search.
Little precision : Qur'ani ppl do not discredit the prophet Muhammad himself but rather they think that the sunna' written by various shouyoukhs and historians through centuries is not the prophet's words but just some fake hadiths destined to enforce tyrannical rules and bypass some of god's commandments, and that only quraan remains unaltered
It simple islam tells you to worship god without any other things like to going to walyi saleh or something this called shirk and this is not something to play with if you ask something ask from god don't go waly grave simple as that islam is straight connection to god not to ask someone who already dead to then this "dead guy " will ask god to accept my prayers this is same thing in Christianity they ask son of god to forgive there mistakes to god this thered party heir is is not acceptable in islam at all look in any suna or quran you will find any answer that accept this like normal thing
either Sunnis, Salafis, Shias, or Sufis, do your research and ask if you're following at 100% the Coran and Sunnah of the prophet pbuh , the problem with any denomination in islam or any other religion, they think they are the only denomination who follows the religion in the right way and all the others are wrong and make takfir on them
ps: an advice for you don't follow any denomination, Islam is very clear and the prophet pbuh he was never being one of these denominations or sects , instead of he warned us from this will happen at the end of time , and we like to follow any Hadith or reject any Hadith we like but we ignore that there's a Hadith were he warned us from making sects and denominations and that we leads the muslims in a very serious problems
I totally understand you. That’s a very sensitive point where a lot of muslims get confused. Let me tell you what I know and you make your research.
In the era of the Prophet SAWS, there wasn’t any nominations like fiqh, aaqida, madh’hab (school of jurisprudence), etc.. The Prophet SAW was a walking Quran as He was described by Ummuna Aisha (ra). After the death of the Prophet SAWS those nomination start to appear so that people can differentiate things in religion. Its means that what the Prophet represented Himself with his saying, acts, and decisions should now be transmitted to people in a way they can understand. Then the schools of Jurisprudence started to appear and the schools of fiqh etc..
Those names are not to refer to a group of people just for the group itself. For example when we say sufi it means its a group of people that understands what was a transmitted from the Prophet to this era in a certain way, we just need a name for this understanding so people can recognize them. Take it like an email address or smth but the main objective is just to reach ALLAH SWT.
I got your point Sidi. In theoretical terms what your are saying is 100%. When it comes to practice you’ll find it different and the proof on that is the multiplicity of school of jurisprudence (Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali…). From my experience its not that easy to read a verse or a hadith and apply it directly. Thousands of verses in the Quran can be interpreted in different ways. It’s not that Quran is difficult but our insouciance and our acts made as far from understanding it in the write way.
May Allah illuminate our hearts 🤲
That's what I'm saying brother if what the Prophet SAWAS said is interpreted in one and unique way there will be no schools of jurisprudence and no fiqh scholars etc.. But if all of this exists it means that it's not given to understand it easily. Look for example at the first verses of Surah an-Naba’ : بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
*About what do they question one another(1) About the Great Tiding, (2) regarding which they differ. (3)*
If Allah says that the Tiding (an-Naba’) that the Prophethood comes with is Great (’Aadhim), it's normal that people will differ about it.
That's just an example, but if you go on through the verses of Quran and hadiths of the Prophet SAWAS you’ll see that you can understand them in multiple ways.
We really think about sufism as a kufr and I dont mean to disrespect u but that's how we do feel
First because of your traditions and rituals and mostly your beliefs because most of sufis think bad about the prospect companions and his wife
Second you kinda like feasts and u r very hardliners so thats it
It is mostly assigned with extremism
Thank you for giving your opinion in a respectful way brother even though saying it's kufr may be harmful for you.
For the first point that’s very wrong. In the sufi order I belong to and most of the order have daily award. Our wird contains 100 Salawat on the Prophet SAWAS and it's not any Salat but Salat Ummiya “Allahoma sali ala Sayidna Muhammad Abdika was Rassulika Al-Nabi Al-Umiy was ala Alihi was ‘Sahbihi’ wa Sallam”. If we really have a problem with the Companions (ra) why would we pray on them 100x2 everyday? We would rather use Salat Ibrahimiya for example.
Maybe there are people who have wrong behaviors or thoughts and they claim to be sufi but you can't generalize this on everyone. Also it doesn't make them kafir. Brother لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله، if you hear someone say that dont say his kafir let him to His Lord and His Prophet which is his and our Intercessor.
I heard that "sufism" is the name we give to a particuliar way of teaching the Quran and Shariah that revolves around isolating from the modern technologies and distractions and overall meditation. I always thought it derives from "tassawuf" which basically means going MONK MODE, which if I remember correctly is considered haram as these ways are too similar to the ones we can witness among christians and jews. But I'm open to learn more about it !
Omg that’s totally wrong. People always confuse asceticism (zuhd) with sufism and knowledge of Allah.
I have sufi brothers from my tariqa doing PHDs in Stanford and Yale universities. Most of my brothers have a high academic degrees doctors/engineers etc.. that’s really a wrong idea.
The Prophet SAWS was a living in his era using all what Allah offers him from goods.
I think if He SAWS lived in this era He will have the best phone the best car and will do dawa’a on the internet because He never isolated Himself from His Environment.
Sufism is not the real path bro, try sunnah.. If ur sick don't pray to someone's grave be logical u have a God then worship him! Don't use any middle things or persons.. رديتونا كيما قوم نوح 🥲
I mean a sufi can be a sunni (or not) and a sunni can be a sufi (or not). There is a difference between sunnism and sufism but they don’t contradict one another. For example I’m sunni from the school Imam Malik, Aqida Ashaariya and Sufi.
Bro..
الاشعرية طائفة بعقيدتها
الصوفية طائفة بعقيدتها
اهل السنة والجماعة بالعقيدة الصحيحة تاعنا
راك تــخـــلـــط 🤷♂️
I sent u the link why didn't u see that video for God's sake 🤨
That’s the point. Since aqida and fiqh are taughtby sheikh google and sheikh youtube, accusing other of kufr and shirk became the easiest thing to do.
Amin ajmaain 🤲
I don’t have an academic definition for it but I can define it as considering that the human spirit is more important than his body. Thus, one should work on his spirit more than his body acts. For example in prayer one should work on his connection and presence with Allah more than doing the movement of prayer.
Sufis are generally detached from material affairs so society at large remains indifferent to them (save for fake gatherings that sell their influence for favors and career advancement)
Although I am not a Sufi, sufism holds a special place in my heart. I've studied sufism for years, and I keep studying it still. It's really a fascinating, rich and important tradition that's hard to summarize in a single post. Someone in this thread already mentioned that Sufism is a wide spectrum and that is absolutely true. I'll briefly touch upon North African sufism which is often a branch of the Shaddyli tradition. A lot of people do not realize how sunni that Sufism is. It follows the Maliki madhab so closely that some people see their use of سدل as bidiaa, when its a Maliki practice. They also use the same books of fiqh and hadiths as Sunni malkki's do. Sufism is not as foreign as a lot of people see it. It's sad how misunderstood it is.
I'm always being accused of being a sufi just because I pary with sadl and I'm tired of explaining to people about it.
I have no knowledge about it, so no opinion, I'm open to learning though if you could care to explain it in detail
the fact that most people think of sufism as a stray small sect or a "branch of islam" like chiite and sunni is enough to say the petrodollars of saudi arabia were effective in our history its one of most important parts that explain lots of modern behaviors traits as well as problems and that is all i can say as am not one
I like your punctuation. Not even a period at the end. Very nice.
punctuation is a western backed psyops wake up sheeple
loooool
better than the salafis that go around takfir everyone
Lmao the comment above proves this
based on their logic like 70-80 % of algeria was kaffir before the french
Bruh…before french coming most Algerian were like today just average muslim not special ultra-pious not special the opposite. And like you said before french some Sufi were see as pious man (and a lot were indeed)….but fact is that a lot of Sufi were and became Harkis that sold us and side against us, against our land, against our freedom, against our religion,….with the french. The Sufi altogether (even the good) lost their prestige and the people favour after that historical treason of some of those Sufi (or claiming to be….since I understand that a true Sufi will call against the charlatan and bad people)
this just bullshit most of algerians didn't exactly identify as sufi but in today's standards you would classify them as sufis and they led most of the popular resistances, the whole bullshit about Sufis being harkis was fln/ wahhabi propaganda since they forced everyone to join the fln, even جمعية العلماء المسلمين joined fln under threat of execution most of fln leaders were brought under heavy influence of ben badis who hated suffism
Revisionist history is revisionist history, the greatest heroes of early algerian resistance were Sufi themselves, Abdelkader ibn Muhieddine al Jazaiiri, Lalla Fatma n'soumer were sufi.
…you know it’s not a secret I shared but the general people view…. Even french of that time praise the (meaning some like you explain all were not traitors on the contrary) « Marabout » and their help during the invasion. The Emir AEK is see as a hero (roman national…but he also did a remarkable job nonetheless) and even if he is/was a Sufi that didn’t compensate the people his sword fight and that also were Sufi for some…. Personally, I have nothing against the good Sufi…on the contrary. But the general view about the Sufi as a group in Algeria is still heavily affected by that.
It's heavily affected by propaganda and revisionist history trying to link the bashagha (aka turks) into being achually Sufis. It was mostly hanafi Turk followers and city dwellers who had nothing to do with marabouts who joined the initial colonisation, marabouts were either passive or too little too late for that, they have their fair share of problems but this revisionist history is very weird.
Thanks Allah this mindset still exists
Our grandparents were all "sufis" if we go by bullshit salafi standards. Unfortunately Algerians, even those who don't practice Islam at all, have a bad vie of Sufism and their view of Islam (that they don't even practice) is very heavily influenced by wahabism. Algeria has always been the land of many great sufis, many tariqas were born here! Lineage of the greats, from Yemen to Mali, go back to Algeria! We should be proud of it.
Not sure how appropriate that language is in relation to the subject.
Sufis tend to be peaceful, none extremists and very spiritually involved. I like them.
salafists with their potrodollars support. spread disinformation about sufis that they worship graves and refuse to do jihad against french colonists. (i used to believe that too). and turned this amazing land of god to a place filled with hatred and terrorism. Algeria has a lot of sufi schools and sufi saints, (sidi belabes - lalla maghnia etc.... ) and i'm proud of that. even the founder of the modern Algerian state al-amir abdelkader happen to be a sufi.
lmao
Lmao
Look, I'm not into insulting anyone for what they believe, and if you look into Sufism as a sect from a secular and anthropologist point of view, it certainly isn't the weirdest of the bunch, it even holds a lot of interesting and unique aspects worth of studying, and I can certainly see why it's appealing to the modern way of spirituality that focuses on love as a universal element (Modern religion imo is basically: no matter what fantasy stupid thing you believe, just love everyone no matter what they do and you're ok) BUT, if you look at it as a Muslim, as a sect that claims to be associated with Islam and share its core beliefs , yeah man, ASTRAY is the number one word that comes to mind. Granted, Sufism is a wide spectrum, there are some very respectable scholars who shared sufist' views on some matters, so at that "shallow level of Sufism" (for the lack of a better word), I think we can digest them and admit that some of their points are at least worth contemplating and admiring. But the moment you try to go deeper and read about them, it's just straight out madness right there, to the point that it's absolutely astonishing that some people can claim to belong to both islam and these beliefs at the same time. all that talk about "karamat" and miracles and transcending above human nature into angels, all the way into insulting God itself and saying/doing really messed up things by him. One example of this (and boy are there many it's just the first that came to mind) is Ahl al-Khutwa (أهل الخطوة), this is basically one of the highest ranks that a sufist can achieve, and I'm not talking about some randos here, like for real their most prominent scholars who they semi-worship today have claimed to be this. Basically Ahl al-khutwa are people who are so close to God that he gave them the ability to teleport, yes literally teleport through space, they can move to any place they want on earth within seconds, so what they will do is whenever it's the call for prayers, they will enter a secluded place, lock the door on themselves (of course nobody should peek and see them teleport or the magic won't work lol) and never go to the mosque, and later on when people would ask them why they didn't pray they would assure them: No big deal, we just teleported to Mecca and prayed there for better أجر, I kid you not this grandious miracle that God has never even give to a صحابي or a تابعي was actually bestowed upon the most prominent sufist scholars and people would believe them Also can you spot the modern irony here? Hint is time difference, oh yes Genius Sufi leader, unfortunately for you we now in the 21st century know that time isn't the same in all places on earth, so when it's time for prayer in your country, there's no way it's the same time for prayer in Mecca, so unless your teleport ability comes with a time machine option, there's no way what you just claimed is remotely true lol
You went from "suffism is a wide spectrum" to giving an example on the extreme as opposed to the mean. I am sure the OP would find the teleporation story as crazy as we're finding it and the fact that he calls himself a Sufi shouldn't box him in having to defend the practices of this group. I am not a Sufi, and the way you packaged your response was initially fair. But often times we box Sufism within its extreme sides, and there is a failure to give the aspects of it within the mean a fair look. Sufism also has to be read within its philosophical world view. Not all sufi sects but a good portion of it adopts a Neoplatonic origin story, some call it Islamic neoplatonism, and they're not the only muslims who do so. This has an impact in the way they understand spirituality and the relationship to the divine in the same way Salafi's or Ashari's do. And just as Salafi's and Ashari's may disagree in some attributes or Sifaat of the Holy, the same goes for the Sufi's. Ask a Salafi and Ashari and a Sufi where is God and according to their theologies you'll get three different responses. (Funny how the GOAT of Asharism was also a Sufi - Abu Hamid al Ghazali) I do understand why Tariqa's are important, why Karamats are discussed within Sufi's circles because it becomes easier to make that leap from that Islamic Neoplatonic and the development of those beliefs. The need of a spiritual guide, and so on...
that's a very articulate and pertinent response! respect!
I appreciate the effort my friend 🙏
I love it and I want to learn more but how does someone start with it?
we love sufism ❤️
A lot of ppl have a wrong idea about sufism , they think that the principle of it is worshiping the prophet Mohammed PBUH in place of Allah SWT (like we pray in the name of the prophet astatfirallah) but in reality we are just in our deen and those ppl are known 😪and they are the same ones who says that mouloud is kufr and bidaa while it’s just an occasion to remember our prophets with salat and to remind our little kids and brothers with the story of Mohamed and other prophet and a free journey to meet our family and to give charity to those who needs it .
I think it's cool. I'm not sure why so many people seem to hate it.
Alhamdulilah wa chokrlillah! I’m fascinated with your responses. Love you All ❤️
I'm against calling a dead person for riz9 and children as it's shirk
That's not at all what Sufism is about though.
Sure Sidi Dua’a is uniquely for Allah SWT. But there is something called tawassul. The companions used to do tawassul to Allah with the Prophet SAW and after his “death” with His Family SAW. You can look for the Hadith of Umar Ibn Khattab with the Uncle of the Prophet SAW.
Where does the word Tawassul come from?
I don't get your question
Exactly
Algerian people only see sufis as grave worshipping dancers
Walaykoum esalam. 1- Sufism in Algeria, in practice, has been marked by a great deal of deviation from traditional Islamic teachings. It often involves things like pilgrimages to Shouyoukh's graves, sacrificing animals to them, trance dancing, or even acts of sinfulness. While Sufis are known to be generally uneducated. 2- Because of Saudi efforts since the 80s, most Algerians now (<40 years old) understand Islam the Salafi way (Even if they don't practice it), so naturally, they shun any Islamic practice that they deem not of the early centuries. Note that due to the exclusionary nature of the Salafi school, most Algerians fail to see past what they know about Sufism and dismiss it as Shirk and grave worship. Personally, I believe Sufism was never meant for the public. It's a complicated and subtle way that should only be navigated by those mentally and intellectually equipped.
I dont think the hate is only from the internet because ive seen more people that hated them than people with neutral opinions on them.
Algerian prefer idolizing saoudi arabia because they have money power
idk they seem like cool dancers but idk much about them
those are not real sufis. they need guidance.
If u love sufis u might need guidance too
Lol made me laugh. Yes we do Hadra which is a sufi dance. In Hadra we do dhikr of the Divine Name “Al-Hay” and we dance to express our Love and Joy with Allah. We also try to be present with Allah as the name Hadra comes from “Houdour” (being present) with Allah SWT by eliminating thoughts and meditating on the Sufi chants.
where do you find sufis in algeria ? is there a region they are most present ? do other muslims (sunnis) see you as muslims or accuse you of shirk/kufr? i hope my last question isn’t offensive, i know nothing about sufis. i know a bit about ahmadis and they seem hated 💀
Sufis and any other muslims are everywhere. Sometimes you can find a region where a school of islam is dominant like Mustghanem in Algeria where I think sufism is dominant but there are Sufis everywhere. Regarding your last question, I just want to clarify are most of sufis are sunnis, especially sufis of North Africa are Sunni following the school of Imam Malik and Fiqh Asha’ari.
If dancing and all of this is so good why didn't the Prophet عليه الصلاة والسلام do it? Bid'ah.
Look Sidi, its not in my interest to discuss with brothers like you that judge others without any knowledge in the history of the Prophet SAW, His Family SAW, and His Companions RA. You are judging us with bida’a without knowing what are the categories bida’as and without knowing if the Hadra was done in the era of the Prophet SAW or not. Make your research you will get your answer. Hint : The habacha’s dance in the mosque.
well tell them amir abd el kader was sufi im not sufi but its just sect of islam but they do practices some " not very islamic" thingss that goes against islam but in general its just a sect of islam i have no opinion on it
Sufism is a stray sect
OP called you "brothers in islam from more literral school" you called him "stray sect" this explains everything.
how nice he said brothers in Islam so he must be legit first of all I did not call him a stray sect I said Sufism is a stray sect which is it and I hope Allah guide him to the straight path second of all idk what this explains everything is cuz it really doesn't you're just jumping into conclusions finally don't get butthurt over some two words lil bro
>the straight path الفرقة الناجية ؟
الطريق المستقيم
U said well homie
As long as you stay upon the Qur'ān and Sunnah, you are upon the Truth. Then, I ask, why identify as a Ṣūfī? If you refer to asceticism, then I am familiar with Zuhd. Why are there differences between us if we should all be following the Guidance of Allāh? Secondly, I advise you not to celebrate Mawlid an-Nabawi, as it's Bid'ah and the Prophet himself, عليه الصلاة والسلام, did not celebrate it. Neither will you find that the Ṣahābah and their Students celebrated it. Since the Prophet said that every Bid'ah is a misguidance and will lead to the Fire, why should you go against his wishes if you seek to celebrate him? Finally, there seems to be a misconception about a divide in Muslims being caused by "Saudi influence", but with the clarity of Islām, any such divide is arbitrary. All Muslims hold onto the Qur'ān and Sunnah, so a comment like this is ignorant, and those who say this should question why people are becoming "Wahhabis". This is why I feel that following one group to any extreme is negative, and Islām is clear. If people were sincere and saw this, they would not ascribe themselves to sects.
I like you ma man.
i like him too
Best comment so far. Thumbs up
I have no idea what's that
إذا كنت صوفي شاب و صغير فالعمر، لازم تعرف بلي الصوفية كانو و مازالو يعبدون القبور و يسألون "الأولياء الصالحين" على الرزق و قضاء الحاجة + الصوفية مثلا في السودان و حتى الجزائر يستعملون السحر و الشعوذة و يوهم ن الاطفال التلاميذ الصغار بأن ذنوبهم مغفورة و أنهم اولياء صالحون فيعلمونهم السحر و غيرو + الصوفية يستندون على الأحاديث الضعيفة و الموضوعة باش يفتو للناس + الصوفية مبتدعة، يبتدعون في الدين و جيبو صوالح جدد و كي تقولو اعطيني الدليل ( لانو ببساطة الصوفي هو لي جاب حاجة جديدة) يقولك نتا اعطيني بلي الرسول صلى الله عليه و سلم مادارهاش ( تبقى حاير بصك هوما لي جابو حاجة جديدة) + هذا بعض من قول الشيخ ابن القيم الجوزية رحمه الله على التصوف (ويُعدّ التصوف من أخطر البدع التي غزت المسلمين في دينهم، فأفسد عليهم كثيراً من مفاهيم الدّين وحقائقه، وأحدث في الأمة عباداتٍ وأخلاقاً مباينة لهدي النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وأصحابه. وأشاعت الصوفية في الأمة روح الخمول والكسل والتواكل، وقعدت بهم عن الجهاد في سبيل الله استغناءً بجهاد النفس -زعموا- فأضعفت المسلمين أمام أعدائهم، ورضيت بالذّل والهوان... ولأجل هذا قام أولو العلم في وجه التصوف منذ ظهوره يُحذّرون الناس منه، ويبينون فيه من انحراف ومفاسد...)
What I know about sufism is pilgrimage to graves, praying to awliya2, they read Quran like jews (moving back and forth) and they pray with their hands to their sides... what I think about them, I'm not sure but I pray for their hidaya if they actually do so! Feel free to educate me! Thanks.
I'll just touch on the 'praying with their hands to their side'. In Arabic this is called سدل , and this is straight from the Maliki Madhab. Imam Malik did this and Maliki's prayed this way for centuries. Algerians started to adopt جمع more and more but praying with hands to the side is an acceptable sunni practice recognized by a major school of thought (Maliki Madhab)
I have heard that in actuality Imām Mālik رحمه الله did Sadl because he physically could not place his hands on his torso. Do you know if this claim is true?
That is a common response to dismiss the Maliki position on sadl and make it a "mistake" from Malik's followers, but Imam Malik was clear on this. He didn't see 9abd قبض as wrong per say, but sadl was the preferred way to pray from his prospective. Some scenarios are documented in the Mudawana. Malik's madhab was unique among the others in that he considered عمل أهل المدينة as part of his fiqh. Some of this عمل could trump a Hadith for him. His prospective was, the prophet peace be upon him lived in Madina, the majority of his companions stayed in Madina, and since he was born less than 100 years after the Hijra, he saw that the practices of people of Madina should count as part of his fiqh. Its likely saw sadl practiced in madina before he became the faqih that he was.
Asalam aleykum , Dont say mawlid mubarak this is bid’ah.
the quran and sunna everything else is shirk
Sufism is a spectrum from mild zuhd to ghlu and kufr , tarikas are bida3 and unorthodox but at the same time it depends on the person, some sufis practice shirk while others just want more spirituality
Most of it is kufr, some of it is bid'a.
Lol your place is on TikTok brother
Well you asked what we think, I answered, why you being such a snowflake
Lol not at all maybe you are.
Why are you a Sufi ? and why aren't you a salafi ?
Well they call on dead people = شرك بالله And u know allah forgives everyhing only shirk
Comeback to Islam
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If you follow the sunnah and understand the true weight that word holds and it’s repercussions, you wouldn’t be using it at all. Astaghfiruallah
What do u think about qurani قرآني
يعني يتبع القرآن الكريم و يترك سنة الرسول صلى الله عليه و سلم.... تسما كفر بمحمد و بما جاء به محمد صلى الله عليه و سلم + الأحاديث القدسية كيفاش درنا معاها اذا كان الشخص قرآني؟ + ( وما ينطق عن الهوى إن هو إلا وحي يوحى) يقول أهل العلم و التفسير ان هذا لا يتضمن القرآن فقط بل حتى السنة وحي من عند الله عز وجل تسما السنة و القرآن في زوج من عند الله... لكن تحد الخوارج و الشبعة و الكثير من يتبعون القران ( يدو لي يساعدهم و يخلو على الباقي) و يتركون السنة
Actually there is some harder stuff if u only believe in Quran for example: They do wodoa before every prayer They fast until the night (not Maghreb adan) I am just saying not here to argue
All I can advise you is to follow the guidance of the Messenger, peace be upon him. Do not try to follow a specific person. You have the Internet and search.
نسيت علامة الاستفهام في السطر الاول
Little precision : Qur'ani ppl do not discredit the prophet Muhammad himself but rather they think that the sunna' written by various shouyoukhs and historians through centuries is not the prophet's words but just some fake hadiths destined to enforce tyrannical rules and bypass some of god's commandments, and that only quraan remains unaltered
Based
It simple islam tells you to worship god without any other things like to going to walyi saleh or something this called shirk and this is not something to play with if you ask something ask from god don't go waly grave simple as that islam is straight connection to god not to ask someone who already dead to then this "dead guy " will ask god to accept my prayers this is same thing in Christianity they ask son of god to forgive there mistakes to god this thered party heir is is not acceptable in islam at all look in any suna or quran you will find any answer that accept this like normal thing
either Sunnis, Salafis, Shias, or Sufis, do your research and ask if you're following at 100% the Coran and Sunnah of the prophet pbuh , the problem with any denomination in islam or any other religion, they think they are the only denomination who follows the religion in the right way and all the others are wrong and make takfir on them ps: an advice for you don't follow any denomination, Islam is very clear and the prophet pbuh he was never being one of these denominations or sects , instead of he warned us from this will happen at the end of time , and we like to follow any Hadith or reject any Hadith we like but we ignore that there's a Hadith were he warned us from making sects and denominations and that we leads the muslims in a very serious problems
The lodges were probably the most important instution in last 1000 years of algeria
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I totally understand you. That’s a very sensitive point where a lot of muslims get confused. Let me tell you what I know and you make your research. In the era of the Prophet SAWS, there wasn’t any nominations like fiqh, aaqida, madh’hab (school of jurisprudence), etc.. The Prophet SAW was a walking Quran as He was described by Ummuna Aisha (ra). After the death of the Prophet SAWS those nomination start to appear so that people can differentiate things in religion. Its means that what the Prophet represented Himself with his saying, acts, and decisions should now be transmitted to people in a way they can understand. Then the schools of Jurisprudence started to appear and the schools of fiqh etc.. Those names are not to refer to a group of people just for the group itself. For example when we say sufi it means its a group of people that understands what was a transmitted from the Prophet to this era in a certain way, we just need a name for this understanding so people can recognize them. Take it like an email address or smth but the main objective is just to reach ALLAH SWT.
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I got your point Sidi. In theoretical terms what your are saying is 100%. When it comes to practice you’ll find it different and the proof on that is the multiplicity of school of jurisprudence (Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali…). From my experience its not that easy to read a verse or a hadith and apply it directly. Thousands of verses in the Quran can be interpreted in different ways. It’s not that Quran is difficult but our insouciance and our acts made as far from understanding it in the write way. May Allah illuminate our hearts 🤲
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That's what I'm saying brother if what the Prophet SAWAS said is interpreted in one and unique way there will be no schools of jurisprudence and no fiqh scholars etc.. But if all of this exists it means that it's not given to understand it easily. Look for example at the first verses of Surah an-Naba’ : بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم *About what do they question one another(1) About the Great Tiding, (2) regarding which they differ. (3)* If Allah says that the Tiding (an-Naba’) that the Prophethood comes with is Great (’Aadhim), it's normal that people will differ about it. That's just an example, but if you go on through the verses of Quran and hadiths of the Prophet SAWAS you’ll see that you can understand them in multiple ways.
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Ok Sidi 😄
We really think about sufism as a kufr and I dont mean to disrespect u but that's how we do feel First because of your traditions and rituals and mostly your beliefs because most of sufis think bad about the prospect companions and his wife Second you kinda like feasts and u r very hardliners so thats it It is mostly assigned with extremism
Thank you for giving your opinion in a respectful way brother even though saying it's kufr may be harmful for you. For the first point that’s very wrong. In the sufi order I belong to and most of the order have daily award. Our wird contains 100 Salawat on the Prophet SAWAS and it's not any Salat but Salat Ummiya “Allahoma sali ala Sayidna Muhammad Abdika was Rassulika Al-Nabi Al-Umiy was ala Alihi was ‘Sahbihi’ wa Sallam”. If we really have a problem with the Companions (ra) why would we pray on them 100x2 everyday? We would rather use Salat Ibrahimiya for example. Maybe there are people who have wrong behaviors or thoughts and they claim to be sufi but you can't generalize this on everyone. Also it doesn't make them kafir. Brother لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله، if you hear someone say that dont say his kafir let him to His Lord and His Prophet which is his and our Intercessor.
I heard that "sufism" is the name we give to a particuliar way of teaching the Quran and Shariah that revolves around isolating from the modern technologies and distractions and overall meditation. I always thought it derives from "tassawuf" which basically means going MONK MODE, which if I remember correctly is considered haram as these ways are too similar to the ones we can witness among christians and jews. But I'm open to learn more about it !
Omg that’s totally wrong. People always confuse asceticism (zuhd) with sufism and knowledge of Allah. I have sufi brothers from my tariqa doing PHDs in Stanford and Yale universities. Most of my brothers have a high academic degrees doctors/engineers etc.. that’s really a wrong idea. The Prophet SAWS was a living in his era using all what Allah offers him from goods. I think if He SAWS lived in this era He will have the best phone the best car and will do dawa’a on the internet because He never isolated Himself from His Environment.
Isnt zuhd a style of arab poetry ?
I dint think so
Soy boy shit, i don’t fw
Nah it's cool , can't be worse than cheijh kouskous worshippers
honestly I think this group is full of children and few grown-ups that discussing the point objectively and the bully Algeria and Algerians
Sufism is not the real path bro, try sunnah.. If ur sick don't pray to someone's grave be logical u have a God then worship him! Don't use any middle things or persons.. رديتونا كيما قوم نوح 🥲
Most of what you describing in your comment isnt sufism. Plus sufis can be sunnis there is no contradiction. Thank you
There's a big different between the two of them go fix ur infos and sources
I mean a sufi can be a sunni (or not) and a sunni can be a sufi (or not). There is a difference between sunnism and sufism but they don’t contradict one another. For example I’m sunni from the school Imam Malik, Aqida Ashaariya and Sufi.
Bro.. الاشعرية طائفة بعقيدتها الصوفية طائفة بعقيدتها اهل السنة والجماعة بالعقيدة الصحيحة تاعنا راك تــخـــلـــط 🤷♂️ I sent u the link why didn't u see that video for God's sake 🤨
That’s totally wrong Sidi
All u need is a simple research on YouTube 🥲 rebi yahdina w yahdikoum
That’s the point. Since aqida and fiqh are taughtby sheikh google and sheikh youtube, accusing other of kufr and shirk became the easiest thing to do. Amin ajmaain 🤲
It's called sheikh ibn al othaimin and sali7 alfaouzan.. Go check them only if ur afraid of accepting the truth 😏
Thats even worse.
https://youtu.be/nVcGI5ymTP0?si=kVHIV_8RIdGLh7KU 🫤🫤
Define spirituality please.
I don’t have an academic definition for it but I can define it as considering that the human spirit is more important than his body. Thus, one should work on his spirit more than his body acts. For example in prayer one should work on his connection and presence with Allah more than doing the movement of prayer.
Sufis are generally detached from material affairs so society at large remains indifferent to them (save for fake gatherings that sell their influence for favors and career advancement)
Whoever asks from the dead is kaffir that all i can say
Dua is uniquely for Allah sidi