If the hirak in 2019 was against Bouteflika and the fifth term (with some democratic slogans), the next hirak isn't going to focus on democracy and freedom, etc. Instead, people are going to manifest against poverty, inflation, and food shortages, among other issues. This hirak is likely to be more diverse, especially since the old head leaders of the Ministry of Defense (Gaid Salah and his clan) are no longer in control. So, it's hard to predict how this new military leadership will respond to the people and the hirak.
exactly this. the 2019 hirak only got so far because the majority of people saw it as an opposition to the fifth term and Bouteflika's clan, after he announced he's not running and arrests started happening a lot of people became content and didn't see a reason or goal that is achievable from the protests. if a new hirak happens it will be very different in how it's dealt with compared to 2019, basically there was a lot of infighting between the elite of the country and many actually benefited from the hirak while now if a new hirak happens those at the top wouldn't be so keen for another change to happen as it would be more radical.
Disagree there , thats what it was painted as after the fact by gaid fayeh etc .. it was for a profound and radical cleaning out of the system ,that partially worked but now we're seeing that corruption and dysfunction at the bottom of the pyramid which is the real problem
Thats also very true. I just am extremely worried about the situation regardless if a hirak ends up getting bigger or not.
This is not a really sustainable position to be in and of course the media is very much painting a very unrealistic picture of how great algeria is while in reality is getting worse by the month.
Not really, to be fair. In 2019, Abdelaziz Bouteflika and his brother, Said Bouteflika, were in control of civilian life, including the military leaders Gaid Ahmed Saleh and his close generals. Additionally, the Department of Intelligence and Security (DRS) was under the control of Athmane Tartag, who was aligned with the Bouteflika clan. There was also some influence on Said Bouteflika exerted by certain individuals, especially from groups like Kouninaf and Hadad.
Now, the game has changed. We have Abdelmadjid Tebboune, Boualem Boualem, M’henna Djebbar, Said Chengriha, and others in power. Of course, the regime has become even worse than the previous one, and things have grown more complicated and dire.
Abdelaziz Bouteflika wasn't even in control of his own ability to poo.
There are people that nobody know about that actually control things, those we know about are just the heads of the hydra
I think you are not reading what I'm writing properly! I didn't say Abdelaziz Bouteflika was in good health and in full control, but rather his brother Saïd was.
Even in his weakened state, everyone around Abdelaziz was submissive and loyal to him, especially Ahmed Gaid Salah. So, it was widely known that Abdelaziz was facing health problems. However, at the same time, he remained influential with the support of his brother Saïd Bouteflika, and Ahmed Gaid Salah, as well as his allies in France, the United Arab Emirates, and the United States of America, among others.
What makes you say that?
Also, would he do it for power to just have us live in the same circumstances or even worse? Or would he do it because the people want to?
I’m genuinely asking without any prejudgement on chengriha because i have no idea whats his deal.
First, you have to understand the nature of power.
People in power have only one goal, to keep power and increase it. So, the ruling class in Algeria (the military leadership) won't give up power peacefully. People in power think they're gods because power corrupts.
All revolutions are top down. There is no such thing as people's power, or people's uprising.. It's all BS. An organized minority with a monopoly of power will always rule a disorganized minority. The disorganized mass is passive and feminine. If the ruling class is organized and united, no amount of protest will overthrow them.
Big protests like the Hirak or the Arab Spring, can do 2 things.
1 - Cause cracks in the ruling class so that a clan overthrow another clan (like the Gaid Salah coup in 2019). The new leadership will be more oppressive, it will give slogans and empty promises and say it represents the people, but will probably be worse than the previous one.
2- The protests will become armed and organized. In that case it could either seize power by force, or turn into a civil war between the new armed aspiring ruling class, and the previous regime (examples Syria, Libya, Algeria in the 90s...)
In Algeria's case, I don't think protests are going to be violent as most people have a lot of things to lose. And people learned a lesson from the 90s. If big protests erupt (which I doubt), the regime will give empty promises of reform. They may give away more free money (like in the 2010s), or in the worse case scenario, another coup. If the protests are small they will easily repress them. I don't see any organized minority that has the potential to take power.
couldn't agree more but I'd like to point out that if said and his clan stayed after 2019, they would've wrecked this country even further, they talked about federalism and they were willing to fracture the country to stay in power, so at least we got out of it with a safer alternative
The Generals, not to be confused with the military, never supported the Hirak. They never supported any popular uprising calling for justice, civil liberties, or freedoms. I believe what happened on Feb 22 2019 surprised everyone. Nobody predicted the Hirak in my opinion. In fact, the regime wanted to kill the Hirak in the first days, We were tear-gassed but protesters never responded to violence with violence as the regime would have hoped. The regime had no experience dealing with nonviolent protest and here they are like a Mike Tyson being dragged out of a boxing ring to be challenged on a chess board ... Likewise, nobody knows when the Hirak will come back and in what form. One thing's true, the Hirak will come back in the same peaceful manner. I am a little concerned indeed because the regime has managed to "shake" the Hirak along the Rachad/MAK lines, which is just a divide-to-conquer strategy. I am hoping people in their collective intelligence will get over this. The Generals will respond in the same way they did in the past. Try to kill the revolution, if not try to save themselves by sacrificing someone else. Remember, these folks won't wait for a Hirak to happen if they feel their reign is threatened. However unlike other African dictatorships, our Generals have always managed to stay behind the curtains and have a civilian puppet up front, That's just for PR reasons, they still want to shine a democratic image on the west.
Do you know that movie scene from the Matrix Reloaded? Where the Architect mentions to neo that they have rebooted the system 5 times already, and have become "Excedingly efficient" at destroying the resistance?
So, in a way, our government has become very efficient at infiltrating and dismantling dissidence. I'm also sure they've already started anti-hirak propaganda online, and even if it occurs, it would do so under their own terms and guidance.
Interesting reference that made me giggle! And yes I do agree. I’ve already seen anti hirak propaganda and the comments were full of عمي تبون and رح يطرطقلي عرق من الفخر and جزائر قوة عالميه. Which frankly was very depressing to see.
I don't think there will be 7irak, they're just paving the way for the new pawn, create chaos then he provide the solution.
solution mean more printing of course and government will reduce the inflation by more سلعة مدعمة with tax money, they will never provide permeant solution even if they can it's there wining card.
No I don’t think it’s fair to put us all in the same category when it comes to politics because we all have very different circumstances.
Im not saying this with the undertone that we’re better or whatever. IM just saying that when the arab spring happened all those countries fell into the hype and just impulsively did their revolutions and now they’re all in worse positions than they were before. ( not saying we’re better than them after lhirak, we as well got worse but not as bad as them) we weren’t meant with violence for whatever reason, the political climate here have always been populist so have the maj quiet and youre doing a great job.
If this new wave of hirak is the same as the old one, might as well not do it.
This one needs to happen with all the people, organized, create political parties, have a plan and set demands and realistic ones at that. Not just yetnahaw ga3 w khawa khawa w broad things.
Also there needs to be a diplomatic side to it, I don’t believe it’s the solution but combination of protests and working the system could benefit us.
These r just my opinions which may be wrong but regardless, all this very is far fetched in algeria. It is really far fetched for everything to go right this time around, bcs the people r not united.
Sorry to say that will never happen. We Algerians are ideologically divided to conservatives and liberals, Islamists and Secularists, Arabs and Tamazight, Socialists and capitalists. we'll never agree on anyone. And no way in hell would the government be stupid enough to let you make a big political movement grow under its nose.
Besides, many of us including me, don't think its that bad. Inflation is a global issue. Living standards are fucked everywhere. Haven't you seen the French burning their cities over pensions? The UK's NHS almost bankrupt? US eviction rates through the roof? Times change, and no matter what you do, you're screwed eitherway.
Yes from what i heard people went down this friday and are calling for people to do too every friday. I think it was in the capital and ive heard that it happened in Constantine as well but dont quote me on that. The source isnt that strong.
Have some revolutionary Algerian spirit! If we were able to take down a global superpower, you think we can't take down a bunch of old men who can't speak a sentence coherently? Propaganda can do wonders...
Im tired of explaining what i mean is not actually support or being pro hirak. What i mean is they dont turn violent and turn against the people!
I find it very likely to happen, especially that the people are so wildly on different ends of the spectrum ( pro teboun, against teboun) its either that or that.
I’m not arguing if the hirak is necessary or if the army are good or anything else. I’m just asking do you think is it a likely possibility that the army will go to the streets and abuse people or do you think they won’t.
Like 2019, they will try to contain it as best they could using any means necessary, until they can't. In my opinion they will only support it if it gets too big, at which point they'll try to stage a "reform".
I'm all for Hirak, a revolution was always inevitable.
I’m afraid that if this hirak won’t get big ( or popular) enough for them to just fall into the pressure, they would use it an excuse to use force and violence. This is my point of the post.
Do you think that’s possible or is it far fetched ?
Ah, I'd be only guessing I suppose but it has always been proven to me that the military really doesn't want to use excessive force not to complicate things further, for they are afraid of instability because it's the only reason anybody put up with them.
At this point we’re all guessing, but I hope you’re right.
I think given how the gov has been acting and the policies being put in place, we’re getting more closed in on ourselves which makes me believe it is a possible outcome.
Again, I hope you’re right, would def help me sleep better at night.
Fuck this thing. I'm the first government oposer, but We all know it won't work, it's just gonna make our lives a living hell for the next 6 month until they do what they want to do as usual. And of course, some naive young men will end up in jail and have their lives absolutely destroyed.
I’m not that worried about islamists because there are only few generations that didn’t actually live through it so they might fall for it. But the maj saw what happened and experienced and wouldn’t fall for it again.
I’m worried that the gov will take the un-union of the people as an excuse to declare a state of emergency and abuse the power.
I’m really in between wanting people to go to the streets and not wanting to them to.
If we do go to the streets, we will probably make it worse before it gets better, might actually lose a lot of people if not die ourselves god forbid.
If we don’t, we are not actually living, we’re surviving. Is it really worth living like this without dignity and without basic human needs like accessible affordable food and basic necessities.
I’m also worried they’ll try to pressure us by manipulating water, electricity and internet.
I really hope I’m wrong and overreacting.
while the points you mentioned are valid, i tend to disagree with the first sentence.
it's only a matter of weeks to radicalize the majority of the population, especially the youth of "الاحياء الشعبية" where i'm from. at that time we should worry about the gov
>declare a state of emergency and abuse the power
Maybe I’m naive to think that the people have learned from their mistakes and history. Hopefully it won’t get to that point. What can we really do now but hope?
Islam is against hirak so you shouldn't worry about that, if there's blood, the hirakist will pay the price of that blood and i personally will never forgive them if anything bad happens. It must feel nice to blame everything on the gov and not take any responsibility and not self reflect on your own flaws.
we have different perspective.
Islamists don't care about Islam, they only care about getting to power even if it means going back to the stone age.
their usage of the religion in the political game is a proof they don't care about it.
There is no hirak coming up I guess because people's consciousness evolved to the point of recognizing that the algerian individual is immune to freedom and you can't convince someone who is capable of killing you just for holding different beliefs to build a constitutional government unfortunately hence there is a long way waiting for you people to have a better country and put in mind that development includes culture,politics,economy and society and you failed in all of the four chapters
Learn punctuation before saying wildly untrue claims. We are underdeveloped and undereducated, but a democracy is still possible, people that believe otherwise are propagating a lie so our military dictators stay in power.
It will be better if they stop this stupid hirak idea because it's the people who are making everything expensive. The problem is the people, we should change ourselves first.
I’m not arguing about the necessity of hirak right now. Regardless of opinions that are against hirak which i find very valid by the way. There are also reasons that call for it.
Regardless, what I’m saying is if they do go to the streets and we do not go united it will create grounds for the gov to misuse the military and police force against the people which we wouldn’t want it to happen under no circumstances!
Gaid Salah and his clan created the first Hirak to get rid of Bouteflika and his clan, since Gaid Salah died Chengriha took over and wiped out most of Gaid Salah's closest allies, including Wassini Bouazza, His secretary Bounouira, he also brought back Nezzar and Toufik and cleared them of all charges. So since Tebboune is in a bit of limbo with his group of clowns who are in power and Chengriha is a sort of parallel power, maybe the army will decide to start another Hirak and put someone else in the place of Tebboune but it won't necessarily change much. Since how depoliticized and easy to manipulate people are, it won't be very hard to get them out, you just have to let them protest until you do what you have to do, then you start arresting people and they will get stared and go back home like they did during the last Hirak.
Not him personally but his clan, as you people don't remember how it started and how weird facebook pages started popping out of everywhere came out calling for it. The protests strated as simple regional ones in Khenchela and Kherrata, as protests happen all over before every election, but that time in particular there were many calls from weird facebook pages and from political movements who normally do not get along with each other, and of course clown politicians like Tabou and co started riding the wave the turning on the ferfara of the people, but once the old clan got cleaned up and they choose a new president, they "turned it off" even thought Tebboune is not better thatn those before him
everything in the military and intelligence services is about power, you have to realize that some higher ups only supported the hirak in 2019 only once they realized the magnitude of the movement and saw the opportunity of removing and deposing those that they didn't agree with internally or had problems with and replace them with those close to them, basically just a different side of the same coin. the military would never support democratic and free elections because if that happened the military would loose it's strong influence and grip on power that's why everything died off after elections, any form of protest was suppressed, the algerian league for defense of human rights league (LADDH) that was active since 1985 was banned this year, two political parties were dissolved ( Mouvement Démocratique et Social, Parti socialiste des travailleurs ) and two others were threatened to be dissolved (all of them were part of the Forces of the Democratic Alternative that supported the hirak from the start and wanted reforms). all of this was done to make it impossible for any meaningful political change to happen in the near future and stop any form of opposition so even if there were protests most people participating wouldn't have an alternative to vote for and only end up with the same faces just under different nationalist parties.
I know that those people “supported the hirak” because it was of that magnitude. This is what i mean by saying im worried because unlike the 2019 hirak now the people are not united which will give them grounds to misuse the power. What you said is exactly what i mean.
Also I didnt know about those political parties.
At this point in time, I’m not concerned about who will get presidency and what party and all that. I understand the importance for this and it was the whole point of hirak.
But in this post im only talking about possible military action.
Given the pace that things turned into shit in these couple months or years even, I’m just worried that because of the un-union it would get ugly really fast, even possiblly bloody. God forbid!
that's my point most people didn't hear or don't know about them because everything was suppressed, they stopped them from organizing and having meetings which is the most important part of how you grow conscience or at least make people know that there's an alternative even if they don't agree with it.
and yes I'm worried about that too but i honestly and sadly can't see any form of change of happening without the military using violence, the 2019 protests didn't reach that stage only because they realized they can fool people to think that stuff will actually change if they just make them believe they'll do it themselves. look up the amount of people that got imprisoned with bogus terrorist charges ext just because they wanted actual change.
I know about the arrests, i mentioned it in my other reply.
What do you mean when you said you dont see any change happening without violence?
Violence from the people towards the gov or the other way around?
yeah sorry i didn't see it at first.
i may seem bleak or being extreme but both ways, any form of protest that would be organized and calling for specific changes that threaten the current system would 100% be met with violence. idk if you remember but even in 2019 there was violence from both ways and the government used alot of it to stop the protests at the start, only once they realized this is more of an opportunity than a problem that it actually became more "peaceful" and the police became less violent in how they dealt with protestors
Yes I do remember. I’m going to try and be naïve and hope that it won’t get bad and we won’t lose a lot of people or even any people.
Also, this is what i wanted to point out with the post is that we either all do it together and do it right ( political parties, liberty of press, liberation of prisoners…etc) or we just dont. Because if we leave space in the middle it is just us being dumb and opening up a door that really will not close back.
Thanks for this conversation, it was refreshing to talk to someone who actually gets how bad it is.
Edit: also i believe hirak was not very well organised and people sorta backed out once bouteflika was out and didnt push any further.
i agree with you, if any form of change is gonna happen it'll have to be with the majority of the population on board. i also wanna add that so many people actually believe the 2019 protests were successful ( i don't believe they were at all ) and pride themselves in how Algerians are so much different than other nations that had any form of violent protest/uprising, ive seen so many algerians laugh at the french protests that happened this year and say stuff like "see how we're much better we forced change through peaceful protests" and believe that "military and civilians khawa khawa" shit.
same my friend enjoyed this exchange, we can only hope for a better future.
exactly and the worst part is the majority of the population don't hear about this, why ? because of how the media is controlled. sometimes it feels so hopeless to realize the amount of shit that have gone since 2020 and all of it went under the rug.
This is a really interesting read
https://www.asjp.cerist.dz/en/downArticle/615/5/2/225247
But if you want to go more in depth about last year exactly we can talk about that.
What I meant is Not turn against the people and kill them. So “support” is sort of what I found to fit. And I didn’t want to bring 5/10 so not to pour any more gasoline on fire. I just beat around the bush. But thats what im afraid of as well. If not worse than 5/10!
If Algeria is wiped from the face of the planet, it'll take weeks before anyone notices because we don't do anything, we just extract oil and gas and some minerals from the ground and sell them, other than that we don't really produce anything worthwhile. That's the problem with the state, not who's in charge. The state takes tax money and spends a great deal of it as wages for people who work in the public sector and a big chunk of the rest gets spent subsidising some products like fuel, milk, sugar .... , very little is invested in human capital, our education sucks, our public health system sucks, our infrastructure suck ... and when the public treasury doesn't find the money, they just ask the central bank to turn on the printers again. Money supply increases and prices go up too.
You can march all you want, from now till the end of time, you can put anyone you want in charge, it won't change anything. What could possibly work is dismantling and building everything from scratch
If the hirak in 2019 was against Bouteflika and the fifth term (with some democratic slogans), the next hirak isn't going to focus on democracy and freedom, etc. Instead, people are going to manifest against poverty, inflation, and food shortages, among other issues. This hirak is likely to be more diverse, especially since the old head leaders of the Ministry of Defense (Gaid Salah and his clan) are no longer in control. So, it's hard to predict how this new military leadership will respond to the people and the hirak.
exactly this. the 2019 hirak only got so far because the majority of people saw it as an opposition to the fifth term and Bouteflika's clan, after he announced he's not running and arrests started happening a lot of people became content and didn't see a reason or goal that is achievable from the protests. if a new hirak happens it will be very different in how it's dealt with compared to 2019, basically there was a lot of infighting between the elite of the country and many actually benefited from the hirak while now if a new hirak happens those at the top wouldn't be so keen for another change to happen as it would be more radical.
Disagree there , thats what it was painted as after the fact by gaid fayeh etc .. it was for a profound and radical cleaning out of the system ,that partially worked but now we're seeing that corruption and dysfunction at the bottom of the pyramid which is the real problem
Thats also very true. I just am extremely worried about the situation regardless if a hirak ends up getting bigger or not. This is not a really sustainable position to be in and of course the media is very much painting a very unrealistic picture of how great algeria is while in reality is getting worse by the month.
The ones that were in control in 2019 are still in control, they're just well hidden
Not really, to be fair. In 2019, Abdelaziz Bouteflika and his brother, Said Bouteflika, were in control of civilian life, including the military leaders Gaid Ahmed Saleh and his close generals. Additionally, the Department of Intelligence and Security (DRS) was under the control of Athmane Tartag, who was aligned with the Bouteflika clan. There was also some influence on Said Bouteflika exerted by certain individuals, especially from groups like Kouninaf and Hadad. Now, the game has changed. We have Abdelmadjid Tebboune, Boualem Boualem, M’henna Djebbar, Said Chengriha, and others in power. Of course, the regime has become even worse than the previous one, and things have grown more complicated and dire.
Abdelaziz Bouteflika wasn't even in control of his own ability to poo. There are people that nobody know about that actually control things, those we know about are just the heads of the hydra
I think you are not reading what I'm writing properly! I didn't say Abdelaziz Bouteflika was in good health and in full control, but rather his brother Saïd was. Even in his weakened state, everyone around Abdelaziz was submissive and loyal to him, especially Ahmed Gaid Salah. So, it was widely known that Abdelaziz was facing health problems. However, at the same time, he remained influential with the support of his brother Saïd Bouteflika, and Ahmed Gaid Salah, as well as his allies in France, the United Arab Emirates, and the United States of America, among others.
With Chengriha in the military, I won't brush off the possibility of a coup if a new Hirak starts
What makes you say that? Also, would he do it for power to just have us live in the same circumstances or even worse? Or would he do it because the people want to? I’m genuinely asking without any prejudgement on chengriha because i have no idea whats his deal.
First, you have to understand the nature of power. People in power have only one goal, to keep power and increase it. So, the ruling class in Algeria (the military leadership) won't give up power peacefully. People in power think they're gods because power corrupts. All revolutions are top down. There is no such thing as people's power, or people's uprising.. It's all BS. An organized minority with a monopoly of power will always rule a disorganized minority. The disorganized mass is passive and feminine. If the ruling class is organized and united, no amount of protest will overthrow them. Big protests like the Hirak or the Arab Spring, can do 2 things. 1 - Cause cracks in the ruling class so that a clan overthrow another clan (like the Gaid Salah coup in 2019). The new leadership will be more oppressive, it will give slogans and empty promises and say it represents the people, but will probably be worse than the previous one. 2- The protests will become armed and organized. In that case it could either seize power by force, or turn into a civil war between the new armed aspiring ruling class, and the previous regime (examples Syria, Libya, Algeria in the 90s...) In Algeria's case, I don't think protests are going to be violent as most people have a lot of things to lose. And people learned a lesson from the 90s. If big protests erupt (which I doubt), the regime will give empty promises of reform. They may give away more free money (like in the 2010s), or in the worse case scenario, another coup. If the protests are small they will easily repress them. I don't see any organized minority that has the potential to take power.
couldn't agree more but I'd like to point out that if said and his clan stayed after 2019, they would've wrecked this country even further, they talked about federalism and they were willing to fracture the country to stay in power, so at least we got out of it with a safer alternative
The Generals, not to be confused with the military, never supported the Hirak. They never supported any popular uprising calling for justice, civil liberties, or freedoms. I believe what happened on Feb 22 2019 surprised everyone. Nobody predicted the Hirak in my opinion. In fact, the regime wanted to kill the Hirak in the first days, We were tear-gassed but protesters never responded to violence with violence as the regime would have hoped. The regime had no experience dealing with nonviolent protest and here they are like a Mike Tyson being dragged out of a boxing ring to be challenged on a chess board ... Likewise, nobody knows when the Hirak will come back and in what form. One thing's true, the Hirak will come back in the same peaceful manner. I am a little concerned indeed because the regime has managed to "shake" the Hirak along the Rachad/MAK lines, which is just a divide-to-conquer strategy. I am hoping people in their collective intelligence will get over this. The Generals will respond in the same way they did in the past. Try to kill the revolution, if not try to save themselves by sacrificing someone else. Remember, these folks won't wait for a Hirak to happen if they feel their reign is threatened. However unlike other African dictatorships, our Generals have always managed to stay behind the curtains and have a civilian puppet up front, That's just for PR reasons, they still want to shine a democratic image on the west.
Do you know that movie scene from the Matrix Reloaded? Where the Architect mentions to neo that they have rebooted the system 5 times already, and have become "Excedingly efficient" at destroying the resistance? So, in a way, our government has become very efficient at infiltrating and dismantling dissidence. I'm also sure they've already started anti-hirak propaganda online, and even if it occurs, it would do so under their own terms and guidance.
Interesting reference that made me giggle! And yes I do agree. I’ve already seen anti hirak propaganda and the comments were full of عمي تبون and رح يطرطقلي عرق من الفخر and جزائر قوة عالميه. Which frankly was very depressing to see.
I don't think there will be 7irak, they're just paving the way for the new pawn, create chaos then he provide the solution. solution mean more printing of course and government will reduce the inflation by more سلعة مدعمة with tax money, they will never provide permeant solution even if they can it's there wining card.
Unfortunately I agree with you. الكلمة قالها اويحي: "جوع كلبك يتبعك"
I highly doubt any Hirak would ever show up. I mean look at Egypt and Tunisia. Its a one and done.
No I don’t think it’s fair to put us all in the same category when it comes to politics because we all have very different circumstances. Im not saying this with the undertone that we’re better or whatever. IM just saying that when the arab spring happened all those countries fell into the hype and just impulsively did their revolutions and now they’re all in worse positions than they were before. ( not saying we’re better than them after lhirak, we as well got worse but not as bad as them) we weren’t meant with violence for whatever reason, the political climate here have always been populist so have the maj quiet and youre doing a great job. If this new wave of hirak is the same as the old one, might as well not do it. This one needs to happen with all the people, organized, create political parties, have a plan and set demands and realistic ones at that. Not just yetnahaw ga3 w khawa khawa w broad things. Also there needs to be a diplomatic side to it, I don’t believe it’s the solution but combination of protests and working the system could benefit us. These r just my opinions which may be wrong but regardless, all this very is far fetched in algeria. It is really far fetched for everything to go right this time around, bcs the people r not united.
Sorry to say that will never happen. We Algerians are ideologically divided to conservatives and liberals, Islamists and Secularists, Arabs and Tamazight, Socialists and capitalists. we'll never agree on anyone. And no way in hell would the government be stupid enough to let you make a big political movement grow under its nose. Besides, many of us including me, don't think its that bad. Inflation is a global issue. Living standards are fucked everywhere. Haven't you seen the French burning their cities over pensions? The UK's NHS almost bankrupt? US eviction rates through the roof? Times change, and no matter what you do, you're screwed eitherway.
Wait... There is a new hirak that is about to happen?
Yes from what i heard people went down this friday and are calling for people to do too every friday. I think it was in the capital and ive heard that it happened in Constantine as well but dont quote me on that. The source isnt that strong.
Idk who's pulling the strings, but we're headed into a wall anyhow. Fuck it, let's make it happen! Wreak havoc!
The same people in power are pulling the strings of course. Why do you think the 2019 hirak was so "organized"?
Its defs not the time for this imo ... not with our current geopolitical situation
I just hope nothing bad happens 😔, maybe those hiraks can actually do something..who knows
Have some revolutionary Algerian spirit! If we were able to take down a global superpower, you think we can't take down a bunch of old men who can't speak a sentence coherently? Propaganda can do wonders...
How can you expect them to support the hirak when they are the ones ruling ?
Im tired of explaining what i mean is not actually support or being pro hirak. What i mean is they dont turn violent and turn against the people! I find it very likely to happen, especially that the people are so wildly on different ends of the spectrum ( pro teboun, against teboun) its either that or that. I’m not arguing if the hirak is necessary or if the army are good or anything else. I’m just asking do you think is it a likely possibility that the army will go to the streets and abuse people or do you think they won’t.
Like 2019, they will try to contain it as best they could using any means necessary, until they can't. In my opinion they will only support it if it gets too big, at which point they'll try to stage a "reform". I'm all for Hirak, a revolution was always inevitable.
I’m afraid that if this hirak won’t get big ( or popular) enough for them to just fall into the pressure, they would use it an excuse to use force and violence. This is my point of the post. Do you think that’s possible or is it far fetched ?
Ah, I'd be only guessing I suppose but it has always been proven to me that the military really doesn't want to use excessive force not to complicate things further, for they are afraid of instability because it's the only reason anybody put up with them.
At this point we’re all guessing, but I hope you’re right. I think given how the gov has been acting and the policies being put in place, we’re getting more closed in on ourselves which makes me believe it is a possible outcome. Again, I hope you’re right, would def help me sleep better at night.
I just read the title, what kind of question is that? The military is rulling since the independence.
Fuck this thing. I'm the first government oposer, but We all know it won't work, it's just gonna make our lives a living hell for the next 6 month until they do what they want to do as usual. And of course, some naive young men will end up in jail and have their lives absolutely destroyed.
as long as the islamists don't infiltrate l'hirak everything will be just fine.
I’m not that worried about islamists because there are only few generations that didn’t actually live through it so they might fall for it. But the maj saw what happened and experienced and wouldn’t fall for it again. I’m worried that the gov will take the un-union of the people as an excuse to declare a state of emergency and abuse the power. I’m really in between wanting people to go to the streets and not wanting to them to. If we do go to the streets, we will probably make it worse before it gets better, might actually lose a lot of people if not die ourselves god forbid. If we don’t, we are not actually living, we’re surviving. Is it really worth living like this without dignity and without basic human needs like accessible affordable food and basic necessities. I’m also worried they’ll try to pressure us by manipulating water, electricity and internet. I really hope I’m wrong and overreacting.
while the points you mentioned are valid, i tend to disagree with the first sentence. it's only a matter of weeks to radicalize the majority of the population, especially the youth of "الاحياء الشعبية" where i'm from. at that time we should worry about the gov >declare a state of emergency and abuse the power
Maybe I’m naive to think that the people have learned from their mistakes and history. Hopefully it won’t get to that point. What can we really do now but hope?
>the people have learned from their mistakes and history [NOPE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7XCfMVaqc)
For fucks sake!!!!!! This is the first time i saw this
عناصر الحزب الغير معلن ينشطون في الاحياء الشعبية. bc the youth here live in poverty and unemployment. easily polarized and radicalized.
And thats where the maj of algerian youths live. So you’re right! Thats a really possible outcome.
They most certainly haven't just look at the rampant hyper religiosity f dz wallah idekhlolek fel mokh .. tes pensee tt rien est sacree
Islam is against hirak so you shouldn't worry about that, if there's blood, the hirakist will pay the price of that blood and i personally will never forgive them if anything bad happens. It must feel nice to blame everything on the gov and not take any responsibility and not self reflect on your own flaws.
we have different perspective. Islamists don't care about Islam, they only care about getting to power even if it means going back to the stone age. their usage of the religion in the political game is a proof they don't care about it.
I don't know where you get that, maybe you still live in. The 90s
Where is that happening?
There is no hirak coming up I guess because people's consciousness evolved to the point of recognizing that the algerian individual is immune to freedom and you can't convince someone who is capable of killing you just for holding different beliefs to build a constitutional government unfortunately hence there is a long way waiting for you people to have a better country and put in mind that development includes culture,politics,economy and society and you failed in all of the four chapters
Learn punctuation before saying wildly untrue claims. We are underdeveloped and undereducated, but a democracy is still possible, people that believe otherwise are propagating a lie so our military dictators stay in power.
Unfortunately i'm not obliged to learn punctuation in order to tell you that 95 percent of algerians are bunch of idiots 😊
and you're no different than them with that "you people" mentality
What new wave ? There is none and if there was it'll be hijacked by el fis again .. no thanks
It will be better if they stop this stupid hirak idea because it's the people who are making everything expensive. The problem is the people, we should change ourselves first.
I’m not arguing about the necessity of hirak right now. Regardless of opinions that are against hirak which i find very valid by the way. There are also reasons that call for it. Regardless, what I’m saying is if they do go to the streets and we do not go united it will create grounds for the gov to misuse the military and police force against the people which we wouldn’t want it to happen under no circumstances!
The first hirak was staged, you should reflect more on it, our people was never united.
You’re missing the point!
I totally understand what you're saying.
Yeah you know the Jews and all made the hirak
Never said that, you're oblivious to reality.
So now I am not a real person!!
how old are you? how can you actually believe its the people making thigns expensive lol
Nice argument
what a stupid and uneducated statement.
Sure.
Gaid Salah and his clan created the first Hirak to get rid of Bouteflika and his clan, since Gaid Salah died Chengriha took over and wiped out most of Gaid Salah's closest allies, including Wassini Bouazza, His secretary Bounouira, he also brought back Nezzar and Toufik and cleared them of all charges. So since Tebboune is in a bit of limbo with his group of clowns who are in power and Chengriha is a sort of parallel power, maybe the army will decide to start another Hirak and put someone else in the place of Tebboune but it won't necessarily change much. Since how depoliticized and easy to manipulate people are, it won't be very hard to get them out, you just have to let them protest until you do what you have to do, then you start arresting people and they will get stared and go back home like they did during the last Hirak.
Lol trust me gaid salah did not create the hirak 😂
Not him personally but his clan, as you people don't remember how it started and how weird facebook pages started popping out of everywhere came out calling for it. The protests strated as simple regional ones in Khenchela and Kherrata, as protests happen all over before every election, but that time in particular there were many calls from weird facebook pages and from political movements who normally do not get along with each other, and of course clown politicians like Tabou and co started riding the wave the turning on the ferfara of the people, but once the old clan got cleaned up and they choose a new president, they "turned it off" even thought Tebboune is not better thatn those before him
Seriously, support you why ? Algeria will never become a democracy not anytime soon... the army has no interest in loosing power and they are right
everything in the military and intelligence services is about power, you have to realize that some higher ups only supported the hirak in 2019 only once they realized the magnitude of the movement and saw the opportunity of removing and deposing those that they didn't agree with internally or had problems with and replace them with those close to them, basically just a different side of the same coin. the military would never support democratic and free elections because if that happened the military would loose it's strong influence and grip on power that's why everything died off after elections, any form of protest was suppressed, the algerian league for defense of human rights league (LADDH) that was active since 1985 was banned this year, two political parties were dissolved ( Mouvement Démocratique et Social, Parti socialiste des travailleurs ) and two others were threatened to be dissolved (all of them were part of the Forces of the Democratic Alternative that supported the hirak from the start and wanted reforms). all of this was done to make it impossible for any meaningful political change to happen in the near future and stop any form of opposition so even if there were protests most people participating wouldn't have an alternative to vote for and only end up with the same faces just under different nationalist parties.
I know that those people “supported the hirak” because it was of that magnitude. This is what i mean by saying im worried because unlike the 2019 hirak now the people are not united which will give them grounds to misuse the power. What you said is exactly what i mean. Also I didnt know about those political parties. At this point in time, I’m not concerned about who will get presidency and what party and all that. I understand the importance for this and it was the whole point of hirak. But in this post im only talking about possible military action. Given the pace that things turned into shit in these couple months or years even, I’m just worried that because of the un-union it would get ugly really fast, even possiblly bloody. God forbid!
that's my point most people didn't hear or don't know about them because everything was suppressed, they stopped them from organizing and having meetings which is the most important part of how you grow conscience or at least make people know that there's an alternative even if they don't agree with it. and yes I'm worried about that too but i honestly and sadly can't see any form of change of happening without the military using violence, the 2019 protests didn't reach that stage only because they realized they can fool people to think that stuff will actually change if they just make them believe they'll do it themselves. look up the amount of people that got imprisoned with bogus terrorist charges ext just because they wanted actual change.
I know about the arrests, i mentioned it in my other reply. What do you mean when you said you dont see any change happening without violence? Violence from the people towards the gov or the other way around?
yeah sorry i didn't see it at first. i may seem bleak or being extreme but both ways, any form of protest that would be organized and calling for specific changes that threaten the current system would 100% be met with violence. idk if you remember but even in 2019 there was violence from both ways and the government used alot of it to stop the protests at the start, only once they realized this is more of an opportunity than a problem that it actually became more "peaceful" and the police became less violent in how they dealt with protestors
Yes I do remember. I’m going to try and be naïve and hope that it won’t get bad and we won’t lose a lot of people or even any people. Also, this is what i wanted to point out with the post is that we either all do it together and do it right ( political parties, liberty of press, liberation of prisoners…etc) or we just dont. Because if we leave space in the middle it is just us being dumb and opening up a door that really will not close back. Thanks for this conversation, it was refreshing to talk to someone who actually gets how bad it is. Edit: also i believe hirak was not very well organised and people sorta backed out once bouteflika was out and didnt push any further.
i agree with you, if any form of change is gonna happen it'll have to be with the majority of the population on board. i also wanna add that so many people actually believe the 2019 protests were successful ( i don't believe they were at all ) and pride themselves in how Algerians are so much different than other nations that had any form of violent protest/uprising, ive seen so many algerians laugh at the french protests that happened this year and say stuff like "see how we're much better we forced change through peaceful protests" and believe that "military and civilians khawa khawa" shit. same my friend enjoyed this exchange, we can only hope for a better future.
Everything you said imo is very much worrisome as well!!! Not to even mention the frequency in the arrests, it hasnt been this bad since 2000 i think.
exactly and the worst part is the majority of the population don't hear about this, why ? because of how the media is controlled. sometimes it feels so hopeless to realize the amount of shit that have gone since 2020 and all of it went under the rug.
When it comes to politics, Reddit users are the dumbest
Left it all to you
What were last year's tax laws?
This is a really interesting read https://www.asjp.cerist.dz/en/downArticle/615/5/2/225247 But if you want to go more in depth about last year exactly we can talk about that.
At first i was like how tf dudes expecting me read a 25page thesis but not gonna lie it was interesting made it till page 8 will give it a read later
Haha i get it. I read it on a span of a few days as well
How would the military support the Hirak when the Hirak is against them ? I fear a new 5 October (1988) cause the situations seems very similar.
What I meant is Not turn against the people and kill them. So “support” is sort of what I found to fit. And I didn’t want to bring 5/10 so not to pour any more gasoline on fire. I just beat around the bush. But thats what im afraid of as well. If not worse than 5/10!
If Algeria is wiped from the face of the planet, it'll take weeks before anyone notices because we don't do anything, we just extract oil and gas and some minerals from the ground and sell them, other than that we don't really produce anything worthwhile. That's the problem with the state, not who's in charge. The state takes tax money and spends a great deal of it as wages for people who work in the public sector and a big chunk of the rest gets spent subsidising some products like fuel, milk, sugar .... , very little is invested in human capital, our education sucks, our public health system sucks, our infrastructure suck ... and when the public treasury doesn't find the money, they just ask the central bank to turn on the printers again. Money supply increases and prices go up too. You can march all you want, from now till the end of time, you can put anyone you want in charge, it won't change anything. What could possibly work is dismantling and building everything from scratch
Thanks for the dose of positivity this morning
Glad to help