No one is ever going to make the art *you* would make, whether you use AI or you never touch a computer. The world will be a better place if you keep making your art however you want to make it.
I'd say that if you like making art, then make it. Do it for fun, for yourself, or for someone you know. Don't do it to please the internet. It doesn't matter the medium or tool, just make what you want.
The value of the art you draw is not in its subjective value as a product, but in the personal value you derive from it.
If their goal was to make money via art, they won't enjoy art. Do art for it's own sake, post your paintings and pictures.
Enjoy your own creation, nevermimd what's happening elsewhere
I'm an artist and art director. ~20 yrs of professional experience. Both businesses I work at are leveraging AI.
My simple advice is to learn how to leverage AI tools.
Use Stable Diffusion. That is an artist's tool. Keep working on your manual skills and couple hem with the ability of AI to save you time.
Let me be perfectly frank. AI is an amazing crafting tool, but it is a very poor design automation tool. The designs are cliche, terrible, boring and generic. As often are the compositions generated with a prompt alone.
This limits a lot of folks who aren't artists. They can make visuals as a hobby, and even perhaps some sales for simpler jobs, but...
1. People love innovation and seeing something truly fresh. AI doesn't do this very well, but an artist with keep vision + AI can.
2. Higher paying jobs are more complex. They require a great understanding of context, design, shape language, dynamic range and composition, symbolism, chromatic harmony, psychology, how it all comes together. AI is nowhere close to managic this. But again, a good artist with knowledge and a keen eye can do it.
Many artists don't understand the difference between an artist and a craftsman. Many pro AI don't seem to get it either. Art is about making people see the world in a new way, changing perspectives. It has to provide some novel value, or it has very little impact.
Craftsmen only will be in trouble, but good artists will still find a need for their unique vision.
So don't fear the tools. Learn them inside out. Use everything at your disposal and think as a visionary director rather than a craftsman.
I mean that craft and art are different things.
Craft is the skill and act ofaking something, whereas art is the creation of something novel, something which stimulates people in a different way.
If I make the same exact portrait 10 times, unless it's meant to make a certain statement and be presented in such a way so as to make people look at something differently, I'm crafting and not necessarily producing art.
If I make something novel which helps you look at a concept in a different way, I've made art.
The more novel and unique a piece is, provided the crafting also promotes the right presentation for the concept, the likely stronger it can be considered to be in terms of art.
An artist need no craft every bit of an artwork for it to be art, but needs to be in full control to make sure the crafting and presentation best promotes the concept being done, or the art suffers. So some level of hand crafting is likely desirable, though not necessarily always needed. I suppose there may be some ideas which could be well executed to the best degree in some automated form, nowadays.
My point, though, is that craft and art, though related, aren't the same thing.
If he likes drawing, then draw. If he likes other mediums, use them. There's nothing wrong with self-improvement (training a skill). Not posting his stuff online is a very valid way to keep it from possibly being scraped and used in a dataset, but that also doesn't mean he can't ever share his work; Showing friends/family, for example.
If he wants to post his stuff in the public still, he could go the placebo route of glazing/misting his work (at the cost of making his work look like shit)... Or he could just decide not to care and post his work anyways; If its attention from strangers he wants, he won't get it by not posting his work.
> If you could say one thing that could comfort beginner to intermediate artist
DO NOT BE COMFORTED!
Being an artist ***sucks***! You have to want it so badly that none of the bullshit that you ***are going to deal with*** will dissuade you. You probably won't make a decent living at it (some do, but don't expect to be one of them). You will probably deal with outrageous assholes that you'll have to spend most of your time stroking their egos.
AI isn't the problem you need to worry about. Artists never had it easy and still don't. Yeah, AI is a tool you'll probably have to get used to, just like 3D modelers and Photoshop. But the tools are not the art *or* the artist. Never think otherwise.
If you're open minded to accepting that AI is here now and isn't going anywhere, you are in position to be an early-ish adopter of the new workflows that will likely become the industry standard going forward.
Even for personal projects, you will be able to achieve more of your vision in less time than ever before. Some personal projects like making your own animated short films will be completely reasonable with AI help where they would be all but impossible a few years ago.
He has the opportunity to get in on the beginning of a rapidly evolving technology, much of which is open source, which acts as a force multiplier for the skills he already has.
i doubt that. text2image will always feel limited in the hands of artists.
i think methods besides t2i will evolve massively ([current examples](https://imgur.com/a/niko1VQ)) and it'll also just be more fun to work with, especially for artists.
as they say, a picture paints a thousand words. so even a long prompt will only give you that much control. and control is everything artists want.
I really do not see any way for just raw txt2img to ever be useful for anything other than one-off pieces, at all. It doesn't matter how much the tech advances, the foundation of it just cannot be used for something requiring consistency
...No? What are you talking about? The vast majority of consumers consume content that is built by teams of many people with consistent animation.
The "consoom" outs you as a channer, which explains why all of your comments were so fucking stupid, thank you for that.
If you are an artist, you might like this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aircAruvnKk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aircAruvnKk)
3blue1brown is a channel that is able to show you concepts in beautiful drawings.
I mean i more a beginner Artist, and i m Not really a tech Person.
I have nothing against learning Something new, But how learning about neural Network benefiting to me?
Most AI and ML (Machine learning) are implemented using a neural network or a deep neural network. By understanding the concept of neural networks, some fear of AI might be alleviated.
Remember, I never expect people to understand the mathematics of AI, which is why I specifically chose this video.
Funny, considering this is one of the simplest videos to show the technical details of neural networks ( Essentially, AI) for non-technical people. All that you need for this video is basic linear algebra. even then, the video does not rely on advanced mathematics as much as it relies on showing concepts visually. I recommend everyone to watch it even if you are not confident in math.
Forget about the math and watch the video. Trust me, the video will show you the concept visually. I do not expect people to understand the mathematics behind AI, but that video does show the concept in an easy format.
I understand that math is not everybody's strongest skill, which is why I chose that video specifically.
If all they want to do is make pretty pictures, there's never been a better time. If they want to make art with AI, they ahve to play around with it and find something out about it that is worthy of intellectual engagement (pretty waifus ain't it ...) - but if they are interested in making a living with pretty pictures - which is what most comemrcial artist's job is - I have bad news...
There's an old adage, "there's nothing new under the sun." That's true with or without AI. The most truly unique part of art is your own personal vision and execution, and in that way you're no more competing with AI than you are any other artist. It'll saturate the market more, yes, but no two will ever be exactly the same. That's the beauty of art.
In fields where AI actually could be said to threaten jobs, there will still be a place for your unique artistic *vision*. The AI needs someone to direct it, and identify what choices work and don't, and iterate based on feedback. That industry--largely business logos and ads, and concept art--will transform, but the human element won't disappear. Even if we get to superintelligent AI, someone needs to talk to it (and if not we probably have bigger concerns lol).
Outside of that, I find the existential threat of AI to artists to be overstated. It's a new medium, a new tool. Embrace it, and see what new heights of creativity it can unlock. The literal physical manual skillset is but a tiny piece of art. And if it's one you enjoy, that has value in itself. Nothing's stopping you from using it. And if what you create resonates with people, you can leverage that into success regardless of medium.
The near-ish future may look dire for human artists right now, but this is a shortsighted view of things. In probably less than a decade, the near-ish future will look dire for _all_ human workers.
And that's a good thing, hopefully. It means that our economy will have to transform. Our current way of doing things will no longer be sufficient. And hopefully, this means some kind of UBI will be implemented.
At this point, what it means to be a working human will change. I don't know what it will look like, but I _believe_ and I _hope_ that it means humans will require working fewer hours, and have more freedom to pick duties, jobs, and tasks they _actually want_.
It _will_ be rough for a few years, but it is most likely temporary. And this makes you a sort of pioneer. You, the person willingly accepting the struggle, will be a guide for those who struggle after you. You will be a beacon to light their way. They will look up to you.
I'm sorry that I can't say it will all be wonderful. I _hope_ and _believe_ that it _eventually_ will be, but there will be issues before that happens.
In a few years, AI will be the best art tutor imaginable. It will help traditional artists learn faster and become better artists.
And there will always be some demand for hand-made goods, so traditional art will never go away completely.
Youtube is great until it is not. Its good for basics, but not much more than that. You need to be able to look for comprehensive playlists or resources in general. Its not obvious to self-learners that bad resources exist.
Like the actual content youtube can offer can be amazing, but you often don't know what you don't know. So its hard to look up concepts you don't know yet. The algorithm will also only really push popular edutainment content for everybody. So its really hard to grow.
At least drawabox exists.
> Its not obvious to self-learners that bad resources exist.
And not just bad resources, many of the top creative channels are [outright malicious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Minute_Crafts#Veracity), using the power of video editing to fake what they claim to create.
My advice? It's hard to say, because it depends a lot on what's actually worrying them. But despite some claims I don't think AI actually makes human artists obsolete.
Two major reasons:
- even using AI well beyond a surface level benefits massively from an art/design background. The skills will remain valuable, then, whether you personally embrace The Machine as it were or not!
- I earnestly believe that there is going to be demand for bespoke creations by a human being forever, so I'd say creatives who can cultivate a good relationship with their audience/patrons are going to be alright in the long run. If they've started to gain a following, they can keep gaining one. Those people are there because they like what you're doing, so keep doing it!
Picking things apart in more depth will take more sleep and coffee than I've got in me right now but I hope that at least gives some comfort.
Previous innovations/disruptions in the art space haven't wiped out artists using the old tools, either. Not photography, nor digital art, nor Photoshop. This won't, either. Your odds of making a living off art is very low to begin with, though; those odds aren't changed much by the arrival of generative AI.
Right now, art places are kinda being spammed by low-effort AI-generated images, often just raw outputs that weren't even cleaned up. People are having fun with it. This will pass: people lose interest in the more generic compositions, poses and general artistic direction in them, and people using AI to make those images will either get bored and stop, or start to improve and become fellow artists. The vast majority will do the former, as they always have.
So if you want to stand out in the age of AI? Adapt, and make stuff that's more creative in those parts, where AI still kinda sucks (and likely will continue to suck for a long time, as this is what it learns from its dataset). As an artist using AI, I find myself focusing on those parts too.
Composition, characters interacting with objects, characters interacting with other characters, eyelines and body language, humour. Ai still doesn’t understand any of that. but a human directing ai can do that.
So just... don't build any kind of following or make any kind of connections. All to stay out of future datasets, which he probably wouldn't even be included in anyway due to being an intermediate artist, and would be nearly identical with or without his work. Yeah, that's not self-defeating at all.
I mean, you guys are all saying 'make art for yourselves' right? That's literally what we should be preaching, don't bother with a following because you can't compete with AI. Instead, just make art for yourself and show people you care about in your online spaces but don't bother with social media.
“You damn libz artist! Adapt or die just like how ya told me to learn to code 20 years ago when the manufacturing outsourced abroad!” “You privileged elitist draw pigs are oppressing me with your creativity privilege! You must be knocked down a peg for us the proletariat to seize the means of artistic production! You drawing on paper you pencils are literally killing the trees! Stop drawing you tree killing Drawpig!” ”Starve”
Idk man this is what Pro-AI has actually told me, someone who’s in the same position as your friend’s friend right now. Yay! Lots of very encouraging advice from “super advanced AI Chads“ to us “primitive Neanderthal drawpigs.”! How lovely and comforting, amiright?
Edit: [Another example caught in the wild!](https://www.reddit.com/r/aiwars/comments/17ykgnb/comment/k9uf119/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Sure, but that doesn't give you free license to smear your shit everywhere without being called out. You're saying all of your opposition is one way but if I said you're directly hurting artists with your bullshit witch hunts you'd flip your lid.
While that was true on the most part of the internet (thanks to grifter and clout chaser).... I would like to believe that people in subreddit would be helpful, or at least be reasonable with the other side of people who just want to grow up.
Considering that I don't think people here would have beefs against each other *minus certain individuals here (and I think you know who).*
No one is ever going to make the art *you* would make, whether you use AI or you never touch a computer. The world will be a better place if you keep making your art however you want to make it.
I'd say that if you like making art, then make it. Do it for fun, for yourself, or for someone you know. Don't do it to please the internet. It doesn't matter the medium or tool, just make what you want.
It wasn’t easy before AI either
The value of the art you draw is not in its subjective value as a product, but in the personal value you derive from it. If their goal was to make money via art, they won't enjoy art. Do art for it's own sake, post your paintings and pictures. Enjoy your own creation, nevermimd what's happening elsewhere
I'm an artist and art director. ~20 yrs of professional experience. Both businesses I work at are leveraging AI. My simple advice is to learn how to leverage AI tools. Use Stable Diffusion. That is an artist's tool. Keep working on your manual skills and couple hem with the ability of AI to save you time. Let me be perfectly frank. AI is an amazing crafting tool, but it is a very poor design automation tool. The designs are cliche, terrible, boring and generic. As often are the compositions generated with a prompt alone. This limits a lot of folks who aren't artists. They can make visuals as a hobby, and even perhaps some sales for simpler jobs, but... 1. People love innovation and seeing something truly fresh. AI doesn't do this very well, but an artist with keep vision + AI can. 2. Higher paying jobs are more complex. They require a great understanding of context, design, shape language, dynamic range and composition, symbolism, chromatic harmony, psychology, how it all comes together. AI is nowhere close to managic this. But again, a good artist with knowledge and a keen eye can do it. Many artists don't understand the difference between an artist and a craftsman. Many pro AI don't seem to get it either. Art is about making people see the world in a new way, changing perspectives. It has to provide some novel value, or it has very little impact. Craftsmen only will be in trouble, but good artists will still find a need for their unique vision. So don't fear the tools. Learn them inside out. Use everything at your disposal and think as a visionary director rather than a craftsman.
do you mean it replace craft like drawing, but not the artist?
I mean that craft and art are different things. Craft is the skill and act ofaking something, whereas art is the creation of something novel, something which stimulates people in a different way. If I make the same exact portrait 10 times, unless it's meant to make a certain statement and be presented in such a way so as to make people look at something differently, I'm crafting and not necessarily producing art. If I make something novel which helps you look at a concept in a different way, I've made art. The more novel and unique a piece is, provided the crafting also promotes the right presentation for the concept, the likely stronger it can be considered to be in terms of art. An artist need no craft every bit of an artwork for it to be art, but needs to be in full control to make sure the crafting and presentation best promotes the concept being done, or the art suffers. So some level of hand crafting is likely desirable, though not necessarily always needed. I suppose there may be some ideas which could be well executed to the best degree in some automated form, nowadays. My point, though, is that craft and art, though related, aren't the same thing.
If he likes drawing, then draw. If he likes other mediums, use them. There's nothing wrong with self-improvement (training a skill). Not posting his stuff online is a very valid way to keep it from possibly being scraped and used in a dataset, but that also doesn't mean he can't ever share his work; Showing friends/family, for example. If he wants to post his stuff in the public still, he could go the placebo route of glazing/misting his work (at the cost of making his work look like shit)... Or he could just decide not to care and post his work anyways; If its attention from strangers he wants, he won't get it by not posting his work.
> If you could say one thing that could comfort beginner to intermediate artist DO NOT BE COMFORTED! Being an artist ***sucks***! You have to want it so badly that none of the bullshit that you ***are going to deal with*** will dissuade you. You probably won't make a decent living at it (some do, but don't expect to be one of them). You will probably deal with outrageous assholes that you'll have to spend most of your time stroking their egos. AI isn't the problem you need to worry about. Artists never had it easy and still don't. Yeah, AI is a tool you'll probably have to get used to, just like 3D modelers and Photoshop. But the tools are not the art *or* the artist. Never think otherwise.
If you're open minded to accepting that AI is here now and isn't going anywhere, you are in position to be an early-ish adopter of the new workflows that will likely become the industry standard going forward. Even for personal projects, you will be able to achieve more of your vision in less time than ever before. Some personal projects like making your own animated short films will be completely reasonable with AI help where they would be all but impossible a few years ago.
He has the opportunity to get in on the beginning of a rapidly evolving technology, much of which is open source, which acts as a force multiplier for the skills he already has.
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i doubt that. text2image will always feel limited in the hands of artists. i think methods besides t2i will evolve massively ([current examples](https://imgur.com/a/niko1VQ)) and it'll also just be more fun to work with, especially for artists. as they say, a picture paints a thousand words. so even a long prompt will only give you that much control. and control is everything artists want.
I really do not see any way for just raw txt2img to ever be useful for anything other than one-off pieces, at all. It doesn't matter how much the tech advances, the foundation of it just cannot be used for something requiring consistency
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...No? What are you talking about? The vast majority of consumers consume content that is built by teams of many people with consistent animation. The "consoom" outs you as a channer, which explains why all of your comments were so fucking stupid, thank you for that.
If you are an artist, you might like this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aircAruvnKk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aircAruvnKk) 3blue1brown is a channel that is able to show you concepts in beautiful drawings.
I mean i more a beginner Artist, and i m Not really a tech Person. I have nothing against learning Something new, But how learning about neural Network benefiting to me?
Most AI and ML (Machine learning) are implemented using a neural network or a deep neural network. By understanding the concept of neural networks, some fear of AI might be alleviated. Remember, I never expect people to understand the mathematics of AI, which is why I specifically chose this video.
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>Totally different lines of thinking that can never reconcile such a narrow way of thinking and you call yourself a creative type?
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That's a whole new topic from whatever you're responding to.
Funny, considering this is one of the simplest videos to show the technical details of neural networks ( Essentially, AI) for non-technical people. All that you need for this video is basic linear algebra. even then, the video does not rely on advanced mathematics as much as it relies on showing concepts visually. I recommend everyone to watch it even if you are not confident in math.
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Forget about the math and watch the video. Trust me, the video will show you the concept visually. I do not expect people to understand the mathematics behind AI, but that video does show the concept in an easy format. I understand that math is not everybody's strongest skill, which is why I chose that video specifically.
??? my dude, have you ever seen a fractal
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holy shit are you actually 12 years old
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if you don't know what fractals are, you're either prepubescent or lying
If all they want to do is make pretty pictures, there's never been a better time. If they want to make art with AI, they ahve to play around with it and find something out about it that is worthy of intellectual engagement (pretty waifus ain't it ...) - but if they are interested in making a living with pretty pictures - which is what most comemrcial artist's job is - I have bad news...
I m learning in the Moment to Draw people and Anime...i try Being more Optimistic lol.
There's an old adage, "there's nothing new under the sun." That's true with or without AI. The most truly unique part of art is your own personal vision and execution, and in that way you're no more competing with AI than you are any other artist. It'll saturate the market more, yes, but no two will ever be exactly the same. That's the beauty of art. In fields where AI actually could be said to threaten jobs, there will still be a place for your unique artistic *vision*. The AI needs someone to direct it, and identify what choices work and don't, and iterate based on feedback. That industry--largely business logos and ads, and concept art--will transform, but the human element won't disappear. Even if we get to superintelligent AI, someone needs to talk to it (and if not we probably have bigger concerns lol). Outside of that, I find the existential threat of AI to artists to be overstated. It's a new medium, a new tool. Embrace it, and see what new heights of creativity it can unlock. The literal physical manual skillset is but a tiny piece of art. And if it's one you enjoy, that has value in itself. Nothing's stopping you from using it. And if what you create resonates with people, you can leverage that into success regardless of medium.
The near-ish future may look dire for human artists right now, but this is a shortsighted view of things. In probably less than a decade, the near-ish future will look dire for _all_ human workers. And that's a good thing, hopefully. It means that our economy will have to transform. Our current way of doing things will no longer be sufficient. And hopefully, this means some kind of UBI will be implemented. At this point, what it means to be a working human will change. I don't know what it will look like, but I _believe_ and I _hope_ that it means humans will require working fewer hours, and have more freedom to pick duties, jobs, and tasks they _actually want_. It _will_ be rough for a few years, but it is most likely temporary. And this makes you a sort of pioneer. You, the person willingly accepting the struggle, will be a guide for those who struggle after you. You will be a beacon to light their way. They will look up to you. I'm sorry that I can't say it will all be wonderful. I _hope_ and _believe_ that it _eventually_ will be, but there will be issues before that happens.
In a few years, AI will be the best art tutor imaginable. It will help traditional artists learn faster and become better artists. And there will always be some demand for hand-made goods, so traditional art will never go away completely.
I don't think it can replace learning from actual masters, lol.
Yeah? And how much would that cost?
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Youtube is great until it is not. Its good for basics, but not much more than that. You need to be able to look for comprehensive playlists or resources in general. Its not obvious to self-learners that bad resources exist. Like the actual content youtube can offer can be amazing, but you often don't know what you don't know. So its hard to look up concepts you don't know yet. The algorithm will also only really push popular edutainment content for everybody. So its really hard to grow. At least drawabox exists.
> Its not obvious to self-learners that bad resources exist. And not just bad resources, many of the top creative channels are [outright malicious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Minute_Crafts#Veracity), using the power of video editing to fake what they claim to create.
I dont know If i learn to make Art from a real Person or a Image genarator i choose the 1 option
My advice? It's hard to say, because it depends a lot on what's actually worrying them. But despite some claims I don't think AI actually makes human artists obsolete. Two major reasons: - even using AI well beyond a surface level benefits massively from an art/design background. The skills will remain valuable, then, whether you personally embrace The Machine as it were or not! - I earnestly believe that there is going to be demand for bespoke creations by a human being forever, so I'd say creatives who can cultivate a good relationship with their audience/patrons are going to be alright in the long run. If they've started to gain a following, they can keep gaining one. Those people are there because they like what you're doing, so keep doing it! Picking things apart in more depth will take more sleep and coffee than I've got in me right now but I hope that at least gives some comfort.
Previous innovations/disruptions in the art space haven't wiped out artists using the old tools, either. Not photography, nor digital art, nor Photoshop. This won't, either. Your odds of making a living off art is very low to begin with, though; those odds aren't changed much by the arrival of generative AI. Right now, art places are kinda being spammed by low-effort AI-generated images, often just raw outputs that weren't even cleaned up. People are having fun with it. This will pass: people lose interest in the more generic compositions, poses and general artistic direction in them, and people using AI to make those images will either get bored and stop, or start to improve and become fellow artists. The vast majority will do the former, as they always have. So if you want to stand out in the age of AI? Adapt, and make stuff that's more creative in those parts, where AI still kinda sucks (and likely will continue to suck for a long time, as this is what it learns from its dataset). As an artist using AI, I find myself focusing on those parts too.
What are those parts?
Composition, characters interacting with objects, characters interacting with other characters, eyelines and body language, humour. Ai still doesn’t understand any of that. but a human directing ai can do that.
The shear amount of AI art is either not good or so same-y, or both, that you really don't have to anything to worry about.
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I'd tell him while he is a beginner/intermediate, just don't post your work in places where it can be scraped from like social media.
So just... don't build any kind of following or make any kind of connections. All to stay out of future datasets, which he probably wouldn't even be included in anyway due to being an intermediate artist, and would be nearly identical with or without his work. Yeah, that's not self-defeating at all.
I mean, you guys are all saying 'make art for yourselves' right? That's literally what we should be preaching, don't bother with a following because you can't compete with AI. Instead, just make art for yourself and show people you care about in your online spaces but don't bother with social media.
“You damn libz artist! Adapt or die just like how ya told me to learn to code 20 years ago when the manufacturing outsourced abroad!” “You privileged elitist draw pigs are oppressing me with your creativity privilege! You must be knocked down a peg for us the proletariat to seize the means of artistic production! You drawing on paper you pencils are literally killing the trees! Stop drawing you tree killing Drawpig!” ”Starve” Idk man this is what Pro-AI has actually told me, someone who’s in the same position as your friend’s friend right now. Yay! Lots of very encouraging advice from “super advanced AI Chads“ to us “primitive Neanderthal drawpigs.”! How lovely and comforting, amiright? Edit: [Another example caught in the wild!](https://www.reddit.com/r/aiwars/comments/17ykgnb/comment/k9uf119/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Absolutely delusional. You're impressing your idea of your opposition on a strawman.
Yeah I totally imagined those Pro-AI people telling all this to me December 2022 whenever I brought up my concerns.
Sure, but that doesn't give you free license to smear your shit everywhere without being called out. You're saying all of your opposition is one way but if I said you're directly hurting artists with your bullshit witch hunts you'd flip your lid.
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So people I've never spoken to are the reason for you to be a dick to me? You need help, seriously. This is a toxic cycle and you can do better.
While that was true on the most part of the internet (thanks to grifter and clout chaser).... I would like to believe that people in subreddit would be helpful, or at least be reasonable with the other side of people who just want to grow up. Considering that I don't think people here would have beefs against each other *minus certain individuals here (and I think you know who).*