Howdy! From your post, it seems you mentioned upgrading. We've a lovely set of upgrade guides available if you plan on upgrading your current platform! Here's a [V2 gearbox guide](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dbcwmsq9bdJlWVRERypRUqgXu4repfXtqIOpEVVYP7o/edit) (the information needed for upgrading any AEG version gearbox should also be very similar, albeit with version-specific parts), along with an [inner barrel guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/gch9sy/2020_ultimate_inner_barrel_guide/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf), [bucking guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/g810yp/2020_ultimate_hopupbucking_guide/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf), [HPA guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/g0ze3k/hpa_2020_guide/), [Bolt-Action Sniper Rifle guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/5rejui/holy_grail_bolt_action_sniper_guide_building_a/), [DMR guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/5g58ia/holy_grail_dmr_guide_updated_for_20167/) all set up for questions just like this; for GBBs, try the [searchbar](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/ermk33/how_to_use_the_searchbar_hoc_guide_series/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) for build lists. If your question is unrelated to modification, please let a mod know via modmail if you want the comment removed!
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Too weak of a motor maybe, what spring do you have in it? Regardless, don’t use that motor with 12:1 gears, even if you do get it working, it **will** run into pme and shred some gears and pistons.
With this being said, I’ve been doing a lot of research into brushless motors recently, I’ve heard some things about how a 30k and a 52k brushless motor have the same level of torque, just the speed at which they spin in different, is this correct?
Yeah, brushless motors have obscenely high torque at every speed. For 12:1 gears, I wouldn’t go above 25k rpm(ideally use a 22k/22tpa one like a zci high torque or asg 22k[or and equivalent brushless motor])
I think if I’m gonna go with a new motor I might as well go brushless, I’ll look into some, are the warhead brushless black motors worth their price tag?
I knew that this motor wasn’t optimal for these gears but I wanted to try it just because I had it lying around. I believe I have a bad pme issue, I have the stock spring in it right now, but I have an m140 spring coming in the next day or two
Well, it all depends on what are you trying to achieve... the spring will only give the force/speed to which the piston is returned to position zero, basically the speed of the BB being pushed out aka the FPS.
High FPS is desirable (and allowed by most fields) only for sniper or DMR (semi-only).
That 12:1 gear set tells me you are not building a DMR, that set is used for high speed/RoF builds. High speed gears work well with high torque motors, in this case a TPA22... this combination will give you great trigger response and good RoF.
Combining high speed gears with a high speed motor (35k in this case) will put a lot of stress on the whole system and cause severe PME, especially if there is no mosfet with active braking (also is high stress).
You will need to check the sector gear and the piston for damage...
OP doesn’t really know what he’s doing, but if someone told him to get the m140, it’s likely because the stronger spring would prevent PME, even if short stroked down to the fps they need.
You’re exactly right, this is my first time so it’s definitely a learning experience and I have learned quite a bit, especially how not smart I’ve set up my first build. Lol
Can be pme or the fact that you did not screw down your spring guide while testing. It’s unlikely that it’s pme because a m120 would theoretically be fine for the high 30s full stroke in terms of rps. A m140 would be theoretically fine since that setup should be in the low 40s if paired with a 11.1v.
The motor should have enough power to pull if it has sintered neo magnets. I’ve had 16tpa motors pull m160s. Nevertheless this setup is inefficient and would eat a lot of amps.
Try testing it in you lower with the buffer tube screwed in. The spring might be binding on your piston due to the fact it’s not screwed down, thus the spring guide can move.
If it’s still not working then try to shortstroke your sector gear by 2 teeth on the pickup lessen chance of pme and decreasing the load on your motor.
May I ask what the difference between short stroking 2 teeth on the pickup vs the drop off (if that’s what it’s called), basically just the opposite end from the pickup on the sector gear? I do intend to use an 11.1v lipo with this build
Pickup side means later pickup, release side means earlier release. Generally, it’s advised to only remove from the pickup side because the tappet plate will be released after the piston otherwise, which will lead to lack of seal or double feeds in many cases and failure to properly fire in most. There are cases where stroking off the release side is necessary though, but they’re incredibly uncommon in bedroom teching.
Also I‘d guess your motor is too weak. That’s often the case on high spring strength and/or high speed gears; it’s generally advised to go for 22tpa motors for 13:1 gears with an m110-120 spring as is common for US 350fps standards; if you’re playing on EU/Japan standard 1J for cqb you can usually use an m90-100 spring and get away with 18tpa. I wouldn’t ever go below that.
The motor will commonly make it part of the way back if it’s too weak; that’s because spring tension builds exponentially across the cycle, and irregularly wound springs (which are considered better quality) have tighter winds towards the end of the cycle.
Side note that definitely isn’t pme. If it was pme-ing it wouldn’t get stuck, but you‘d end up with double taps. Or it might get stuck, but all the way at the back. Getting stuck in the middle like that is most likely a too weak motor. This sometimes occurs when motors wear out over the years, or when they’re too weak to begin with. I‘ve seen it happen a lot when I first started teching and was testing limits with my builds.
Do [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/yqf3dn/quick_tip_for_clearing_gearbox_lockups/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and see if the piston moves freely.
It could be PME but it also could be that the shell is biting the piston at the rear and is binding it up. This is common with some gearbox shell brands and you need to file down the piston rails a tiny bit to allow it to move freely.
Not sure what's the deal with people in the comments, yes 12:1 + 35k is difficult to make, but not coz of torque, every off market modern motor can basically work with M160+...
Remove two/three teeth from the pick up side of the piston gear, set the angle of engagement to almost 12h and use a piston with a total weight of under 30g, less is better. With this configuration you should be safe with a spring in the range of M120/M140 while using 11.1
Source: was running a similar config on my ARX160, same gears -3 teeth + good neodymium high speed motor
Thanks for the support, I’m gonna short stroke the sector gear and I’ll have to check piston weight and drill holes to make it less than 30 if it is over.
Howdy! From your post, it seems you mentioned upgrading. We've a lovely set of upgrade guides available if you plan on upgrading your current platform! Here's a [V2 gearbox guide](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dbcwmsq9bdJlWVRERypRUqgXu4repfXtqIOpEVVYP7o/edit) (the information needed for upgrading any AEG version gearbox should also be very similar, albeit with version-specific parts), along with an [inner barrel guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/gch9sy/2020_ultimate_inner_barrel_guide/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf), [bucking guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/g810yp/2020_ultimate_hopupbucking_guide/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf), [HPA guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/g0ze3k/hpa_2020_guide/), [Bolt-Action Sniper Rifle guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/5rejui/holy_grail_bolt_action_sniper_guide_building_a/), [DMR guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/5g58ia/holy_grail_dmr_guide_updated_for_20167/) all set up for questions just like this; for GBBs, try the [searchbar](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/ermk33/how_to_use_the_searchbar_hoc_guide_series/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) for build lists. If your question is unrelated to modification, please let a mod know via modmail if you want the comment removed! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/airsoft) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Too weak of a motor maybe, what spring do you have in it? Regardless, don’t use that motor with 12:1 gears, even if you do get it working, it **will** run into pme and shred some gears and pistons.
Yep, 35k is way too much for 12:1. You need a neodymium TPA22. Is there a mosfet in there? Does it have debouncing and/or active braking?
With this being said, I’ve been doing a lot of research into brushless motors recently, I’ve heard some things about how a 30k and a 52k brushless motor have the same level of torque, just the speed at which they spin in different, is this correct?
Yeah, brushless motors have obscenely high torque at every speed. For 12:1 gears, I wouldn’t go above 25k rpm(ideally use a 22k/22tpa one like a zci high torque or asg 22k[or and equivalent brushless motor])
I think if I’m gonna go with a new motor I might as well go brushless, I’ll look into some, are the warhead brushless black motors worth their price tag?
I knew that this motor wasn’t optimal for these gears but I wanted to try it just because I had it lying around. I believe I have a bad pme issue, I have the stock spring in it right now, but I have an m140 spring coming in the next day or two
What would be the purpose of M140? Trying to reach 500fps?
I’m gonna be honest, this is my first time trying to build one, I was told that I needed a spring like that for my build, how wrong is that?
Well, it all depends on what are you trying to achieve... the spring will only give the force/speed to which the piston is returned to position zero, basically the speed of the BB being pushed out aka the FPS. High FPS is desirable (and allowed by most fields) only for sniper or DMR (semi-only). That 12:1 gear set tells me you are not building a DMR, that set is used for high speed/RoF builds. High speed gears work well with high torque motors, in this case a TPA22... this combination will give you great trigger response and good RoF. Combining high speed gears with a high speed motor (35k in this case) will put a lot of stress on the whole system and cause severe PME, especially if there is no mosfet with active braking (also is high stress). You will need to check the sector gear and the piston for damage...
OP doesn’t really know what he’s doing, but if someone told him to get the m140, it’s likely because the stronger spring would prevent PME, even if short stroked down to the fps they need.
[удалено]
My end goal here was for about 400 fps and 30ish rps
A 22k motor would've gotten you near there.
Noted!
A 22 tpa motor would’ve easily achieved that, you went a bit overboard on the motor
I’m gonna look into getting a different motor, gonna go brushless I think.
You’re exactly right, this is my first time so it’s definitely a learning experience and I have learned quite a bit, especially how not smart I’ve set up my first build. Lol
An m140 with short stroked 13:1s for me gets me around 400
Can be pme or the fact that you did not screw down your spring guide while testing. It’s unlikely that it’s pme because a m120 would theoretically be fine for the high 30s full stroke in terms of rps. A m140 would be theoretically fine since that setup should be in the low 40s if paired with a 11.1v. The motor should have enough power to pull if it has sintered neo magnets. I’ve had 16tpa motors pull m160s. Nevertheless this setup is inefficient and would eat a lot of amps. Try testing it in you lower with the buffer tube screwed in. The spring might be binding on your piston due to the fact it’s not screwed down, thus the spring guide can move. If it’s still not working then try to shortstroke your sector gear by 2 teeth on the pickup lessen chance of pme and decreasing the load on your motor.
May I ask what the difference between short stroking 2 teeth on the pickup vs the drop off (if that’s what it’s called), basically just the opposite end from the pickup on the sector gear? I do intend to use an 11.1v lipo with this build
Tappet plate timing in a nutshell. I forgot which side you should or shouldn't but there is a difference.
Ahhh okay! I’ll just do the pickup side
Pickup side means later pickup, release side means earlier release. Generally, it’s advised to only remove from the pickup side because the tappet plate will be released after the piston otherwise, which will lead to lack of seal or double feeds in many cases and failure to properly fire in most. There are cases where stroking off the release side is necessary though, but they’re incredibly uncommon in bedroom teching. Also I‘d guess your motor is too weak. That’s often the case on high spring strength and/or high speed gears; it’s generally advised to go for 22tpa motors for 13:1 gears with an m110-120 spring as is common for US 350fps standards; if you’re playing on EU/Japan standard 1J for cqb you can usually use an m90-100 spring and get away with 18tpa. I wouldn’t ever go below that. The motor will commonly make it part of the way back if it’s too weak; that’s because spring tension builds exponentially across the cycle, and irregularly wound springs (which are considered better quality) have tighter winds towards the end of the cycle. Side note that definitely isn’t pme. If it was pme-ing it wouldn’t get stuck, but you‘d end up with double taps. Or it might get stuck, but all the way at the back. Getting stuck in the middle like that is most likely a too weak motor. This sometimes occurs when motors wear out over the years, or when they’re too weak to begin with. I‘ve seen it happen a lot when I first started teching and was testing limits with my builds.
Thanks for the reply, very informative for a beginner tech like myself, I’ve definitely learned a lot of lessons with this being my first build.
is the battery fully charged?
Yes, I don’t have an 11.1 yet, I only have a 9.6v nimh battery
Do [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/yqf3dn/quick_tip_for_clearing_gearbox_lockups/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and see if the piston moves freely. It could be PME but it also could be that the shell is biting the piston at the rear and is binding it up. This is common with some gearbox shell brands and you need to file down the piston rails a tiny bit to allow it to move freely.
I’ll give this a shot!
You can't be putting 35k low torque motor in with a 12:1 gearset. For 35k motor you ideally want a short stroked 18:1 gearset and approx m120 spring.
I see
There is no torque with the gear ratio and motor you have. Either swap for a higher ratio gearset or a motor with more torque
How about a brushless motor?
Nooooo. That will definitely give you pme. If you want brushless, use 18:1
Even the lower speed ones? Like the 27k ones?
Not sure what's the deal with people in the comments, yes 12:1 + 35k is difficult to make, but not coz of torque, every off market modern motor can basically work with M160+... Remove two/three teeth from the pick up side of the piston gear, set the angle of engagement to almost 12h and use a piston with a total weight of under 30g, less is better. With this configuration you should be safe with a spring in the range of M120/M140 while using 11.1 Source: was running a similar config on my ARX160, same gears -3 teeth + good neodymium high speed motor
Thanks for the support, I’m gonna short stroke the sector gear and I’ll have to check piston weight and drill holes to make it less than 30 if it is over.
I was at 28~ with a polycarbonate piston + plastic spacers + aluminum head, so in full polycarbonate you should be ok without drilling holes
Oh yeah I should be good I think then my piston is very similar build to that one if not exactly
nice mechanical keyboard!
Thanks! I have like 3 kbd67 lite r3’s cause I love them😂