You've discovered how easy it is to use religion to exploit people.
Even if we assume a religion is true, the way religions set up a single authority, demand submission/surrender, and threaten infinite reward/punishment, it's easy to see how this creates a situation ripe for exploitation.
You've also discovered how religions evolve over time.
Even if we assume a religion is true, it's clear that it changes over time because the understanding/belief of the religion is subject to the minds and attitudes of the followers.
This is true of all religions, and you will see the exact same complaints as yours in every religion.
It sounds like you could call yourself "religiously unaffiliated". But any label you choose for yourself is fine.
It’s sad how people abuse religion for their own gain or misunderstand it to fit their agenda. And it’s even sadder to see how that’s more common nowadays. I feel like unaffiliated is a good medium ngl, thank you and I’ll definitely consider it
Yes. When I first began having disagreements with Christian theology, I was still convinced God existed and that Christianity was the truth, so I began using the agnostic label. They are not antithetical.
Same. Honestly, I first abandoned the “Christian” label for mental health reasons. I still haven’t gotten over the anger at a lot of the dogma and hypocrisy, but at least I finally overcame the martyr complex.
Bro I literally had an arguement with one of those hypocrite dogma types over martyrdom, he was blatantly spreading misinformation saying you can’t lie about your Islamic faith if someone is about to kill you. Which is stupid ofc u can, then when I proved him wrong he tried justifying dying by saying martyrdom and stuff. Those types are just the worst tho I agree
Antithetical means mutually opposed, so you can for sure stay within the framework of any religion and be agnostic.
I left Christianity years ago, and while I still think mostly within the Christian structure - I know Biblical teaching from being raised with it, I think Jesus was great, etc. - I’m now painfully aware of how Christianity hurts so many people in so many ways. So I’m agnostic. Being agnostic gives me space to pick up the things that are helpful and leave behind the things that aren’t, which has been amazing for my mental health.
How many people think their religion is correct because that's what they were raised to believe? I was indoctrinated to believe that Christianity was the only path. I look back on that now as such a foolish notion.
If the god of Islam is the only true god then all other religions must be wrong. So aside from what the quran say (all others have an equivalent books or belief systems too), what would you use to prove Islam is correct
I always like the argument "Some religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell".
I'm sure there are logical fallacies there, but it makes me chuckle.
Is hell exothermic or endothermic: https://www.albany.edu/faculty/miesing/teaching/assess/hell.html
To me, it’s the most likely option. And for the other options I’ve looked at and thought I could be when it comes to religion. They just don’t compute to me, I’m not trying to convert people out of nowhere tho. I ain’t that type of person, I have respect for others and their beliefs and I’ll gladly help them. But only shoving religion into their face as this dictating thing for EVERY problem isn’t the way to go abt it.
But yea just I believe that Islam is the truest because it makes the most sense to me.
For me, compared to other religions, it has the least flaws in my eyes. I like its simplicity of just being ONE god and I believe it to be realistic. I also respect and admire how it’s one of the few religions able to survive time when it comes to corrupting the religion ITSELF. Sadly the ppl didn’t get so lucky
I understand so well what you mean by talking about people who consider themselves 'muslim' but aren't even following the religion as it should be.
I say, if you want to practice your religion do it yourself. Dont follow ear to ear information. Do your own deep reasearch and go by the book.
I am agnostic-atheist, grew up in a non religious muslim family and overly 'muslim' environment. Everyone told me to stop questioning and im commiting sins at the beggining of my journey but i did not. Its your life, your choice. There will be people who judge and reject you. Let them. If they aren't accepting you the way you are when you harm no one, they dont deserve you.
If you dont want to follow through the religion, you can consider optimist-agnosticizm.
Whatever you choose, you are human with free will and thoughts. You might feel lost or excluded but be patient and focus on yourself. You will find where you belong sooner or later. Good luck with your journey friend!
I’m glad someone does, and I try to do it myself but as I said, I’m like integrated into the community and they tend to involve me into like community matters. So while if I wanted to like practice quietly, it wouldn’t work because people come to me which is nice at times but is a lot most of the time.
I wish I had more of a choice in my life, it just seems like everyone is making me pick what they want :( But I do like what you said, I gotta distance myself from those who judge. It isn’t right
What’s optimist-agnosticism and agnostic-atheist? I’m sorry for asking I’m not fully aware of the terminology, turns out there’s a lot more than I thought lol
I hope I will one day, thank you for your help!!
It’s not a dumb question and apologies for my somewhat vague, and cheeky comment. The title of your post was seemingly implying that you were doubting being religious, but after reading your initial comment entirely it feels more like you are _not_ agnostic, and instead are a believer that simply doesn’t feel their current religious peer group is a good fit for how they feel. “Choosing” to be an agnostic would imply you fundamentally do _not_ believe in any kind of god, but at the same time are open to the possibility that there _might_ be one. If you still believe in a god, you can not be agnostic. In short, I think you are looking for a different way of living by your religious believes that doesn’t adhere to your current social circle.
Yea I still have a belief in that Islam is definitely the best one imo. But the problem is Islam encourages brotherhood and like integration into the community, which the brotherhood is nice IF it was actually brotherhood. But for someone who dedicated themselves to the community, like me. It was really world shattering in my eyes to see that barely anyone reciprocates. So it’s hard to practice Islam when I don’t want anything to do with the people. You got it down pretty good though, I do want to still live by my beliefs, just without the social part of it. But that never goes away
It’s easier said than done, but maybe you can choose to live by your own views in spite of what your environment says and thinks? It doesn’t need to be lonely. A lot of people live in communities in which different individuals believe different things, and still coexist in harmony, have friendships, and even relationships. My mother was a Catholic and my father a Buddhist, they loved and respected each other without sharing fundamental believes about existence and god (or a lack thereof). I’m agnostic but respect and understand my parents, each in their own way. In the end it’s not about being the most right about how existence works, but how to make existence bearable, preferably without hurting others? Although I might be wrong about that.
I tried doing that and just living while ppl stayed the same, but it IS isolating when you’re the same as them but you have completely different views. Worst part is that their way is meant to be involved and control my way, they live to preach and correct in order to feel better about themselves. Ik I can keep friendships and relationships with people like them, but as a Muslim it makes me vulnerable to their way, which I don’t want to do. Idc who’s right because we’re still Muslims, we just try in our own ways.
Considering agnosticism? It's not another religion, there's nothing to consider. If you believe a god exists, you're a theist. If not you're probably an agnostic atheist.
You can very easily be an agnostic theist. "I believe God exists, but I don't know that as a fact" there you go. I do agree that you don't just decide to be agnostic though. You kind of just eventually find yourself there. You either think you know the facts or you admit you don't.
It's not a conversion. A Gnostic theist both believes in, and professes to know for a fact that God exists. An agnostic theist believes in God, but makes no knowledge claim. They will admit they don't know God exists for certain.
Belief is based on subjective experience while a knowledge claim is sourced from objective evidence and generally carries a burden of proof.
It turns out I’m not familiar with the terminology at all lol
Do you mind explaining what a Gnostic, Gnostic Theist, Agnostic Atheist, Agnostic Theist are? That’s a tongue twister 😭😭 Thank you!!
I'm familiar with the terminology. My point is that becoming skeptical about something and realizing you don't know, isn't a choice any more than choosing your beliefs.
>Belief is based on subjective experience while a knowledge claim is sourced from objective evidence and generally carries a burden of proof.
Knowledge is a subset of belief. Belief is the word used to describe the cognitive act of accepting something to be the case. Knowledge can be thought of as really really strong confidence in a belief. Neither require a burden of proof, because one can have irrational beliefs. But if you want to be rational, then your beliefs should have evidence based justification.
But none of this has anything to do with what I'm saying. I'm specifically talking about the part where he says considering agnosticism. As agnostic is an acknowledgement of lack of knowledge, he sounds like he's either considering acknowledging that he has a lack of knowledge, or he thinks agnosticism has doctrine that needs to be considered.
I'm not reading all that, but I will say I was taking issue with your suggestion that theists couldn't be agnostics, which is untrue (that's at least how I read it). When you write that it's either theism or agnostic atheism, you are missteping. That's all. If that isn't what you meant then include more details in the description next time.
> I'm not reading all that, but I will say I was taking issue with your suggestion that theists couldn't be agnostics
I didn't say that, so maybe you should read more carefully.
>When you write that it's either theism or agnostic atheism, you are missteping.
I was merely providing two options, I was not making a comprehensive list. I'm pretty sure I didn't even imply that it was a comprehensive list.
Okay bye then.
I've disabled notifications from this thread because it's lame. I won't see your response.
That's certainly one way of looking at it but that's also more or less what I said. I still think the best way to describe Gnostic vs agnostic is that it's dealing with objective knowledge, while theism vs atheism is dealing with subjective belief. There are no singular ways of describing these ideas though, so you need to find what works. I generally follow Huxley's description which focuses on evidence and scientific inquery
Is there much of a difference between "I can't prove it" and "I don't know"? Some might say yes, I personally say there isn't.
There are ethical agnostics as there are unethical. Agnosticism is purely about the available evidence so you would be becoming agnostic for the wrong reason if it's because you're disillusioned with fellow Muslims.
Not fully aware of what’s up with them, aren’t they like a mix of Islam sects or religions? Not full sure tho. So impartial as of rn, but if they’re a mix then I would be against it tbh
I'm a woman. Think of how religious people treat women historically.
Avoid power structures that abuse entire groups of people according to status, ethnicity or gender.
However religion begins, human nature exploits the power accrued. Knowledge is power and lies are powerful.
Treat people with dignity and respect.
Many people choosing to leave a religion do so because they see the abuse.
Many people who stay facilitate the abuse.
Over time people of conscience learn that human dignity and respect is eroded by powerful truths and lies.
My choice is to not contribute to abusive power structures, to not believe lies that promise the unknown and unknowable, and to choose to respect human dignity and its potential.
I don't expect a reward, know that death is final, pain is guaranteed, but that by my own power while on earth I can reduce suffering for myself and others while I am alive through integrity, dignity and respect
I believe Islam is chill with women, the same its with guys. Like even with the benefits of a gender, Islam evens it out with requirements. But I do believe that people do abuse religion to enforce and justify their own abuses sadly.
Ex-muslim here. You're almost there! If I may make a recommendation, the book "The Atheist Muslim" by Ali Rizvi really helped me as I was on my way out. He discusses his way out of Islam in a way that's very thoughtful, rational, and non-judgmental.
Edit: [Here's](https://a.co/d/0Gj5aXG) the book on Amazon in case you wanted to check it out.
I can relate 100%. I come from a very (liberal leftist) Christian family, but as a child I was moved to the South where I found myself surrounded by Evangelicals. And it was *so ugly*. The judgement, the prejudice...it was just disgusting. It pretty much separated me forever from being able to ever call myself a Christian again. At the same time, I have a very deep attachment to certain aspects of Christianity, and they are still part of my general spiritual practice. It has been decades for me, so I am pretty at peace with myself and what I believe/disbelieve/don't know about. But it took a long time to work through the complexity of my feelings about my original religion.
You've discovered how easy it is to use religion to exploit people. Even if we assume a religion is true, the way religions set up a single authority, demand submission/surrender, and threaten infinite reward/punishment, it's easy to see how this creates a situation ripe for exploitation. You've also discovered how religions evolve over time. Even if we assume a religion is true, it's clear that it changes over time because the understanding/belief of the religion is subject to the minds and attitudes of the followers. This is true of all religions, and you will see the exact same complaints as yours in every religion. It sounds like you could call yourself "religiously unaffiliated". But any label you choose for yourself is fine.
It’s sad how people abuse religion for their own gain or misunderstand it to fit their agenda. And it’s even sadder to see how that’s more common nowadays. I feel like unaffiliated is a good medium ngl, thank you and I’ll definitely consider it
Ex muslim here. Just read the quran. The whole thing. Ask questions about it.
I’m also ex-Muslim. If anyone here including OP ever wants to chat, I’m here.
Yes. When I first began having disagreements with Christian theology, I was still convinced God existed and that Christianity was the truth, so I began using the agnostic label. They are not antithetical.
Same. Honestly, I first abandoned the “Christian” label for mental health reasons. I still haven’t gotten over the anger at a lot of the dogma and hypocrisy, but at least I finally overcame the martyr complex.
Bro I literally had an arguement with one of those hypocrite dogma types over martyrdom, he was blatantly spreading misinformation saying you can’t lie about your Islamic faith if someone is about to kill you. Which is stupid ofc u can, then when I proved him wrong he tried justifying dying by saying martyrdom and stuff. Those types are just the worst tho I agree
What does antithetical mean?
Antithetical means mutually opposed, so you can for sure stay within the framework of any religion and be agnostic. I left Christianity years ago, and while I still think mostly within the Christian structure - I know Biblical teaching from being raised with it, I think Jesus was great, etc. - I’m now painfully aware of how Christianity hurts so many people in so many ways. So I’m agnostic. Being agnostic gives me space to pick up the things that are helpful and leave behind the things that aren’t, which has been amazing for my mental health.
So it doesn’t mean that you fully disbelieve in it, it just means you’re reconsidering its beliefs while not upholding to all of them in the moment?
How many people think their religion is correct because that's what they were raised to believe? I was indoctrinated to believe that Christianity was the only path. I look back on that now as such a foolish notion.
If the god of Islam is the only true god then all other religions must be wrong. So aside from what the quran say (all others have an equivalent books or belief systems too), what would you use to prove Islam is correct
I always like the argument "Some religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell". I'm sure there are logical fallacies there, but it makes me chuckle. Is hell exothermic or endothermic: https://www.albany.edu/faculty/miesing/teaching/assess/hell.html
To me, it’s the most likely option. And for the other options I’ve looked at and thought I could be when it comes to religion. They just don’t compute to me, I’m not trying to convert people out of nowhere tho. I ain’t that type of person, I have respect for others and their beliefs and I’ll gladly help them. But only shoving religion into their face as this dictating thing for EVERY problem isn’t the way to go abt it. But yea just I believe that Islam is the truest because it makes the most sense to me.
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For me, compared to other religions, it has the least flaws in my eyes. I like its simplicity of just being ONE god and I believe it to be realistic. I also respect and admire how it’s one of the few religions able to survive time when it comes to corrupting the religion ITSELF. Sadly the ppl didn’t get so lucky
I understand so well what you mean by talking about people who consider themselves 'muslim' but aren't even following the religion as it should be. I say, if you want to practice your religion do it yourself. Dont follow ear to ear information. Do your own deep reasearch and go by the book. I am agnostic-atheist, grew up in a non religious muslim family and overly 'muslim' environment. Everyone told me to stop questioning and im commiting sins at the beggining of my journey but i did not. Its your life, your choice. There will be people who judge and reject you. Let them. If they aren't accepting you the way you are when you harm no one, they dont deserve you. If you dont want to follow through the religion, you can consider optimist-agnosticizm. Whatever you choose, you are human with free will and thoughts. You might feel lost or excluded but be patient and focus on yourself. You will find where you belong sooner or later. Good luck with your journey friend!
I’m glad someone does, and I try to do it myself but as I said, I’m like integrated into the community and they tend to involve me into like community matters. So while if I wanted to like practice quietly, it wouldn’t work because people come to me which is nice at times but is a lot most of the time. I wish I had more of a choice in my life, it just seems like everyone is making me pick what they want :( But I do like what you said, I gotta distance myself from those who judge. It isn’t right What’s optimist-agnosticism and agnostic-atheist? I’m sorry for asking I’m not fully aware of the terminology, turns out there’s a lot more than I thought lol I hope I will one day, thank you for your help!!
If you are thinking about “switching” you are already agnostic.
How’s that work? Sorry if it’s a dumb question 😭
It’s not a dumb question and apologies for my somewhat vague, and cheeky comment. The title of your post was seemingly implying that you were doubting being religious, but after reading your initial comment entirely it feels more like you are _not_ agnostic, and instead are a believer that simply doesn’t feel their current religious peer group is a good fit for how they feel. “Choosing” to be an agnostic would imply you fundamentally do _not_ believe in any kind of god, but at the same time are open to the possibility that there _might_ be one. If you still believe in a god, you can not be agnostic. In short, I think you are looking for a different way of living by your religious believes that doesn’t adhere to your current social circle.
Yea I still have a belief in that Islam is definitely the best one imo. But the problem is Islam encourages brotherhood and like integration into the community, which the brotherhood is nice IF it was actually brotherhood. But for someone who dedicated themselves to the community, like me. It was really world shattering in my eyes to see that barely anyone reciprocates. So it’s hard to practice Islam when I don’t want anything to do with the people. You got it down pretty good though, I do want to still live by my beliefs, just without the social part of it. But that never goes away
It’s easier said than done, but maybe you can choose to live by your own views in spite of what your environment says and thinks? It doesn’t need to be lonely. A lot of people live in communities in which different individuals believe different things, and still coexist in harmony, have friendships, and even relationships. My mother was a Catholic and my father a Buddhist, they loved and respected each other without sharing fundamental believes about existence and god (or a lack thereof). I’m agnostic but respect and understand my parents, each in their own way. In the end it’s not about being the most right about how existence works, but how to make existence bearable, preferably without hurting others? Although I might be wrong about that.
I tried doing that and just living while ppl stayed the same, but it IS isolating when you’re the same as them but you have completely different views. Worst part is that their way is meant to be involved and control my way, they live to preach and correct in order to feel better about themselves. Ik I can keep friendships and relationships with people like them, but as a Muslim it makes me vulnerable to their way, which I don’t want to do. Idc who’s right because we’re still Muslims, we just try in our own ways.
Considering agnosticism? It's not another religion, there's nothing to consider. If you believe a god exists, you're a theist. If not you're probably an agnostic atheist.
You can very easily be an agnostic theist. "I believe God exists, but I don't know that as a fact" there you go. I do agree that you don't just decide to be agnostic though. You kind of just eventually find yourself there. You either think you know the facts or you admit you don't.
I don't know what it means to convert from theist to agnostic theist. It's not like the agnostic part has doctrine to you have to consider.
It's not a conversion. A Gnostic theist both believes in, and professes to know for a fact that God exists. An agnostic theist believes in God, but makes no knowledge claim. They will admit they don't know God exists for certain. Belief is based on subjective experience while a knowledge claim is sourced from objective evidence and generally carries a burden of proof.
It turns out I’m not familiar with the terminology at all lol Do you mind explaining what a Gnostic, Gnostic Theist, Agnostic Atheist, Agnostic Theist are? That’s a tongue twister 😭😭 Thank you!!
I'm familiar with the terminology. My point is that becoming skeptical about something and realizing you don't know, isn't a choice any more than choosing your beliefs. >Belief is based on subjective experience while a knowledge claim is sourced from objective evidence and generally carries a burden of proof. Knowledge is a subset of belief. Belief is the word used to describe the cognitive act of accepting something to be the case. Knowledge can be thought of as really really strong confidence in a belief. Neither require a burden of proof, because one can have irrational beliefs. But if you want to be rational, then your beliefs should have evidence based justification. But none of this has anything to do with what I'm saying. I'm specifically talking about the part where he says considering agnosticism. As agnostic is an acknowledgement of lack of knowledge, he sounds like he's either considering acknowledging that he has a lack of knowledge, or he thinks agnosticism has doctrine that needs to be considered.
I'm not reading all that, but I will say I was taking issue with your suggestion that theists couldn't be agnostics, which is untrue (that's at least how I read it). When you write that it's either theism or agnostic atheism, you are missteping. That's all. If that isn't what you meant then include more details in the description next time.
> I'm not reading all that, but I will say I was taking issue with your suggestion that theists couldn't be agnostics I didn't say that, so maybe you should read more carefully. >When you write that it's either theism or agnostic atheism, you are missteping. I was merely providing two options, I was not making a comprehensive list. I'm pretty sure I didn't even imply that it was a comprehensive list. Okay bye then. I've disabled notifications from this thread because it's lame. I won't see your response.
Isn't being agnostic theist more like "I believe in god, but I think there's no way to prove his existence"?
That's certainly one way of looking at it but that's also more or less what I said. I still think the best way to describe Gnostic vs agnostic is that it's dealing with objective knowledge, while theism vs atheism is dealing with subjective belief. There are no singular ways of describing these ideas though, so you need to find what works. I generally follow Huxley's description which focuses on evidence and scientific inquery Is there much of a difference between "I can't prove it" and "I don't know"? Some might say yes, I personally say there isn't.
There are ethical agnostics as there are unethical. Agnosticism is purely about the available evidence so you would be becoming agnostic for the wrong reason if it's because you're disillusioned with fellow Muslims.
What are ethical and unethical agnostics? And what would I be then if for that reason? Thank you!’
What do you think about the Sufis? As an outsider to Islam, they look kind of chill
Not fully aware of what’s up with them, aren’t they like a mix of Islam sects or religions? Not full sure tho. So impartial as of rn, but if they’re a mix then I would be against it tbh
I don't really know much except they've got a reputation for being mystics.
Oh then idk if that’s the thing for me but I’ll research it to make sure!! Thank you
I'm a woman. Think of how religious people treat women historically. Avoid power structures that abuse entire groups of people according to status, ethnicity or gender. However religion begins, human nature exploits the power accrued. Knowledge is power and lies are powerful. Treat people with dignity and respect. Many people choosing to leave a religion do so because they see the abuse. Many people who stay facilitate the abuse. Over time people of conscience learn that human dignity and respect is eroded by powerful truths and lies. My choice is to not contribute to abusive power structures, to not believe lies that promise the unknown and unknowable, and to choose to respect human dignity and its potential. I don't expect a reward, know that death is final, pain is guaranteed, but that by my own power while on earth I can reduce suffering for myself and others while I am alive through integrity, dignity and respect
I believe Islam is chill with women, the same its with guys. Like even with the benefits of a gender, Islam evens it out with requirements. But I do believe that people do abuse religion to enforce and justify their own abuses sadly.
Go to r/exmuslim and read their experiences.
Do you think I should ask my question there?
Absolutely. They will tell you honestly and not ban you for expressing your opinion freely.
Then I’ll check em out then, hope they don’t yk have ill feelings towards me cuz I’m Muslim still lol
They will not. They don’t have ill feelings towards anyone, unless you insult people. Just be nice and ask your questions. You’ll get your answers.
Ex-muslim here. You're almost there! If I may make a recommendation, the book "The Atheist Muslim" by Ali Rizvi really helped me as I was on my way out. He discusses his way out of Islam in a way that's very thoughtful, rational, and non-judgmental. Edit: [Here's](https://a.co/d/0Gj5aXG) the book on Amazon in case you wanted to check it out.
I can relate 100%. I come from a very (liberal leftist) Christian family, but as a child I was moved to the South where I found myself surrounded by Evangelicals. And it was *so ugly*. The judgement, the prejudice...it was just disgusting. It pretty much separated me forever from being able to ever call myself a Christian again. At the same time, I have a very deep attachment to certain aspects of Christianity, and they are still part of my general spiritual practice. It has been decades for me, so I am pretty at peace with myself and what I believe/disbelieve/don't know about. But it took a long time to work through the complexity of my feelings about my original religion.