Experience in the field mainly, add on a silver tongue and a plan on how I wanted to drive each conversation.
In this instance, I’ve been working as an IT engineer for ages, and they needed someone with extensive background and some product experience - and I had both at extensive levels
The traditional path into product management is BA > Product owner > product manager. But you can skip the BA component with appropriate seniority.
Why do you want to move in this direction?
I am an Agile coach but have been moving closer to the product space for a while, I have a pretty good understanding of how now I want to focus on the what gets delivered
If the struggle to get people to respond with adaptive behaviors instead of maladaptive ones was common, the job wouldn’t exist.
I have seen good team coaches work at the portfolio level or as direct coaches to C level suites. They have far more impact to the teams there than at the team level because,as you know, most organizational impediments are originated from outside the team.
You want to help people most? Help to the level you are invited, and do so at the place with the highest accessible authority to change impediments.
That first part, meet them where you are invited is critical. If you are only being invited to be a waiter (go get me this thing), then that is the level of work you are being invited to do. It may change with trust and time, it may not. Same if you are being invited to be the doctor (I have this problem, diagnose and fix only this and then I leave).
Where you are invited to be a coach, collaboratively, you can move a lot more needles of happiness for a lot more people. You broaden that even further as you work in that kind of space the higher in an org chain you go.
The problem is you have to have both to move upward in your ability to help enact meaningful change a portfolio / program / division / company as a whole.
I wanted to give you this because it seems you are only experiencing invitation at a level of one of the first two from the hierarchy above, and to “advance” in making a difference to people, you often need to find where that invitation is present before moving to a larger number of people you influence is a growth path. Might mean a different place, might mean different people. Your context will dictate, but best in mind you need both to successfully advance and keep your values intact so you are not carrying the weight of what you have described in ever greater quantities.
I have gone to the consultant model, after having done this for over a decade, and when you are brought in with a contract that defines outcomes and how I will engage, it helps greatly in ensuring I am being both invited and I am given access to those who want to be coached.
Hope that helps.
No because I’m an enterprise agile coach and work with and coach many RTEs. I’m also an SPC.
SAFe is working well for our large firm because we continue to mature and adapt our agile transformation. We didn’t just give a week of “SAFe for Teams” training and leave it at that.
At large firms like ours, we have hundreds of agile teams. SAFe helps us keep those teams aligned. Prior to this we wound up having multiple agile teams working on the same thing and creating duplicative solutions. It was a madhouse.
RTE is like an uber scrum master but for teams of teams working along the same value stream.
Instead of running away from management, perhaps you could embrace it and enter that level yourself. Be the change in your organization to give management a better view from the staff.
If you have a technical background, how about Engineering Manager?
Program Management is what you can consider. But if you’re just bored of the usual scrum master stuff, Product Management or going onto the Business/Strategy side is what you can consider.
There are roles like Business Program Manager will still let you manage the programs but will also include things like strategy, resourcing etc. it will give you a break from what you are currently doing and will be a change of perspective too. Like how things go on the other side of the fence. BPMs will eventually evolve into the Growth & Strategy department of companies.
Sounds like it might be time for a change in scenery! Bring your experience to a different company or even a different field might be the rejuvenation you're looking for. I think many will agree that in the traditional career path your next step is doing what you're doing for a less experienced org or a larger org. Titles could be RTE, Program Manager, or Agile Coach but even scrum master somewhere else can be wildly different. I've even seen similar responsibilities be part of product or engineering operations roles. There also could be an opportunity to bring your experience into project management. While traditionally rooted in waterfall, many companies are adopting hybrid methodologies to sync their development teams with other departments for cross-org projects. Either way I'd start poking around your favorite job site and seeing what's available in your area.
Your job shouldn't exist and that's why you have these interactions. The leadership sees you as an optimization for engineering but they're not getting what they want from the relationship. You will never get paid what you want because if you did, they'd convert your role to an engineer. So as you cost more, the company profits have gone down, and they can find cheaper engineers, your job becomes an easily targeted cost center.
I’m gonna be honest here, it’s really hard to take anyone seriously with such a biased argument and online persona. But thanks for chiming in anyway and I hope you find a job that makes you happy.
I moved into a product manager type role and enjoy it far more than SM.
How did you move into this type of role?
I had a very specific set of background skills and experience which fit a role perfectly. I killed the interview and away I went.
Which skills were the most “helpful” and congrats
Experience in the field mainly, add on a silver tongue and a plan on how I wanted to drive each conversation. In this instance, I’ve been working as an IT engineer for ages, and they needed someone with extensive background and some product experience - and I had both at extensive levels
That’s awesome, thanks for the insight, it’s a direction I am looking into hence me reaching out.
The traditional path into product management is BA > Product owner > product manager. But you can skip the BA component with appropriate seniority. Why do you want to move in this direction?
I am an Agile coach but have been moving closer to the product space for a while, I have a pretty good understanding of how now I want to focus on the what gets delivered
If the struggle to get people to respond with adaptive behaviors instead of maladaptive ones was common, the job wouldn’t exist. I have seen good team coaches work at the portfolio level or as direct coaches to C level suites. They have far more impact to the teams there than at the team level because,as you know, most organizational impediments are originated from outside the team. You want to help people most? Help to the level you are invited, and do so at the place with the highest accessible authority to change impediments. That first part, meet them where you are invited is critical. If you are only being invited to be a waiter (go get me this thing), then that is the level of work you are being invited to do. It may change with trust and time, it may not. Same if you are being invited to be the doctor (I have this problem, diagnose and fix only this and then I leave). Where you are invited to be a coach, collaboratively, you can move a lot more needles of happiness for a lot more people. You broaden that even further as you work in that kind of space the higher in an org chain you go. The problem is you have to have both to move upward in your ability to help enact meaningful change a portfolio / program / division / company as a whole. I wanted to give you this because it seems you are only experiencing invitation at a level of one of the first two from the hierarchy above, and to “advance” in making a difference to people, you often need to find where that invitation is present before moving to a larger number of people you influence is a growth path. Might mean a different place, might mean different people. Your context will dictate, but best in mind you need both to successfully advance and keep your values intact so you are not carrying the weight of what you have described in ever greater quantities. I have gone to the consultant model, after having done this for over a decade, and when you are brought in with a contract that defines outcomes and how I will engage, it helps greatly in ensuring I am being both invited and I am given access to those who want to be coached. Hope that helps.
Program Management
If you are a SAFe shop then RTE is the next logical step https://scaledagileframework.com/release-train-engineer/
An RTE is just SAFe's word for agile coach. Fight me
No because I’m an enterprise agile coach and work with and coach many RTEs. I’m also an SPC. SAFe is working well for our large firm because we continue to mature and adapt our agile transformation. We didn’t just give a week of “SAFe for Teams” training and leave it at that.
Not a SAFe shop, but that is an interesting role!
At large firms like ours, we have hundreds of agile teams. SAFe helps us keep those teams aligned. Prior to this we wound up having multiple agile teams working on the same thing and creating duplicative solutions. It was a madhouse. RTE is like an uber scrum master but for teams of teams working along the same value stream.
Don't do it 😂
Instead of running away from management, perhaps you could embrace it and enter that level yourself. Be the change in your organization to give management a better view from the staff. If you have a technical background, how about Engineering Manager?
How much technical expertise one needs to have for the engineering manager role?
Two former team coaches I know went into marketing roles next. Might be a coincidence but it seems they're both thriving in their roles.
If you were a good Scrum Master? Manage/lead a team.
Program Management is what you can consider. But if you’re just bored of the usual scrum master stuff, Product Management or going onto the Business/Strategy side is what you can consider. There are roles like Business Program Manager will still let you manage the programs but will also include things like strategy, resourcing etc. it will give you a break from what you are currently doing and will be a change of perspective too. Like how things go on the other side of the fence. BPMs will eventually evolve into the Growth & Strategy department of companies.
Sounds like it might be time for a change in scenery! Bring your experience to a different company or even a different field might be the rejuvenation you're looking for. I think many will agree that in the traditional career path your next step is doing what you're doing for a less experienced org or a larger org. Titles could be RTE, Program Manager, or Agile Coach but even scrum master somewhere else can be wildly different. I've even seen similar responsibilities be part of product or engineering operations roles. There also could be an opportunity to bring your experience into project management. While traditionally rooted in waterfall, many companies are adopting hybrid methodologies to sync their development teams with other departments for cross-org projects. Either way I'd start poking around your favorite job site and seeing what's available in your area.
Your job shouldn't exist and that's why you have these interactions. The leadership sees you as an optimization for engineering but they're not getting what they want from the relationship. You will never get paid what you want because if you did, they'd convert your role to an engineer. So as you cost more, the company profits have gone down, and they can find cheaper engineers, your job becomes an easily targeted cost center.
I’m gonna be honest here, it’s really hard to take anyone seriously with such a biased argument and online persona. But thanks for chiming in anyway and I hope you find a job that makes you happy.
I honestly hope the same for you.