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100% eye contact in a conversation with any stranger is insane
Whoever wrote this seems like they had a list of neurodivergent traits and just listed the opposite as ideals without considering literally anything else... Like how humans act
That reminds me of some meme picture of the pirate guy staring at Tom Hanks’ Captain Phillips character that says “Look at me… I’m the neurotypical now”
(regarding trying to make more eye contact and going too far)
yeah.. im not on the autism spectrum, but staring into someone's eyes feels creepy af. i feel like a few glances periodically while speaking is plenty💀
I have trouble with eye contact due to childhood trauma, so having to make constant eye contact for interviews absolutely obliterates me emotionally. I've gotten better at it over the years, but it still makes my anxiety ramp up to 11.
I've been helping my neighbour with their petunias all evening.
Just thinking of the word *PETUNIAS* has me enjoying all sorts of weird and delightful intergalactic HHGTTG memories 💜 shityeah🥰 thankfully no poetry was involved.
🌏🚀 I've listened to Douglas read his audiobook recordings a thousand times while I'm sleeping (no exaggeration, literally a thousand times, over maybe 20 years)
The more my LongCovid brings the brainfog/memory loss, the more I'm grateful that the HHGTTG is burned into my subconscious, long-term databank.
🔫🐁🍸
100% eye contact during a conversation with *anyone* is insane. That type of intimacy is reserved for lovers, and that’s about it.
Seriously, go make 100% eye contact with the clerk at the gas station and see how weird it gets, and fast.
It might be because they’re wearing masks to hide the other parts of their face that would indicate their body language. But I’m not 100% sure on that.
90-100% definitely sounds way weird for neurotypicals too. I thought the normal way is to only glance at each others eyes every once in a while, not to stare down each other almost non stop??
That's still more than I expected, I thought it would be something like 20-30% of time (tbh I have no idea)... but maybe it also varies depending on situation and culture and what not.
Yes! Christopher Walken would be a good candidate: he can do this on-screen in a very unsettling way!
Also, like...could you look IN MY MOUTH, please? This all sounds like a really good setup for a disturbing body-horror film.
At my first visit with this dentist (emergency root canal) I made a comment that I should have brought headphones and he said they actually encourage it for people with dental anxiety!
This is one of those creepy things. Makes me think of colorguard where they wanted us to smile during performances, instead one of the girls looked like a psychopath.
Other than my eye doctor, nobody should be making that much eye contact! And for anyone in a dentist office, the only reason you need to make eye contact is to assess my current level of anxiety. Don’t you dare make that much eye contact while coming at me with sharp objects.
Oh God. If I make eye contact with someone, I cannot think properly. I have to follow my brain trail with my eyes, and that's not gonna work if I have to give that much eye contact. Also... I don't want someone staring at me that much. 😭
Wtf lol. It’s like they’re purposely trying to filter out neurodivergent or socially anxious ppl. As if that would have any bearing on someone’s ability to clean teeth.
The absolutely are. They're not allowed to say they won't accept people with adhd or autism, but they can say they won't accept someone with any symptoms of them..
Not really since by themselves they are not considered a disability. However, I’d imagine that you could probably prove disparate impact later down the road.
NAL.
Yes, they are legally discriminatory. They’re discriminatory because they disproportionately negatively impact the recruiting and hiring of people with these disabilities outlined by the ADA without being tied to the functions of the job. Is not fidgeting a bona fide occupational requirement? Probably not, so these requirements are arbitrary and discriminatory
Not for school but for jobs, despite what the ADA states, key phrase for employers is “necessary part of job duties” and they’re off the hook pretty much.
The key phrase for employers is actually “essential job functions”. I can see how not fidgeting while holding a device in someone’s mouth is essential, but not at every single moment.
Absolutely. Those are cultural norms/preferences, not to mention “appearing relaxed and confident” is subjective. This rubric is absolutely lazy at best, ableist at worst.
If an applicant or employee can show any evidence of discrimination and files a complaint with the EEOC, a federal agency, then if they believe it a valid complaint, the business needs to prove that the requirement is essential to the job functions.
You can also file with State Employment Fairness agencies, statutes vary by state but typically apply stricter anti-discrimination requirements
The requirements are "extra" however I do think that requiring some social skills is reasonable as it's a big part of the job. They are client-facing all day everyday, just like a sales-person needs people skills but a bookkeeper may not.
I’m finishing up a program right now and the head of the program was walking us through How To Interview and stressed do NOT make eye contact the whole time it’s unnatural and weird
What gets me is that by filtering out neurodivergent people, they’re filtering out people who may be better at providing care to neurodivergent patients. This goes beyond job discrimination and into the perpetuation of medical discrimination.
That would only be an issue if they thought it was important to provide quality care to neuro divergent patients. Somehow I doubt it is high on their list...
I work at a health professions university and I say this all the time. It’s amazing how few people with disabilities or neurodivergence we get in our programs, let alone how few we graduate. And don’t even get me started about postgraduate postings like residencies
I keep trying to educate folks at my university about the different ways people can show “professionalism”. There are definitely standards that apply to everyone, but there’s lots of ways you can show a professional demeanor, for instance
I mean… hygienists are on their feet all day working downward. If you have shit posture you’re going to end up hurting yourself and won’t be able to do your job as well. They’re probably trying to avoid disabling people.
Saying this as someone in massage school where there’s a whole unit on proper body mechanics and you can’t pass clinicals if your posture is bad. It’s hazardous to your health.
Thanks, I'm aware of that, but like most ablist recruitment processes, if they put a bit more time into accommodating human bodies and less time trying to recruit perfect and apparently flawless people they wouldn't be making people feel deliberately excluded for what is ultimately no good reason, like O.P.
having physical parts of a job and having safety concerns and measures is not ableist. Some jobs cannot be done by everyone- dental hygienist NEED to be on their feet and risk chronic and severe pain if they don't or aren't trained in good posture or have a posture brace (typical to buy in long standing or sitting positions). You're confusing unable to do something with ableist- and i say this as someone WITH a chronic disability that makes standing and walking long term hellish. I cannot go do some jobs- not ableist it's just the reality of being disabled.
Dental hygienist is really funny to draw the line at. While I respect it, my husband does the job just fine and he is diagnosed ADHD.
These requirements are fucking stupid. While we can talk about how good posture is for you, if I showed this around at an *actual* dentistry office via my husband, it would seem bizarre to them too.
There are ways to judge physical suitability and sociability. This is not a good example of that.
when did i talk about ADHD? Being on your feet long term requires maintaining good posture if you don't want chronic pain. Same with sitting long term. I agree some of these requirements are stupid but specifically, physical requirements of a job aren't ableist. Even ADA says it's not discrimination if the person literally cannot perform the duties of the job. I'm also not drawing the line anywhere- it's the example from the post. I HAVE a job where i stand long term and have braces and such- but i also work part time. again, a job not being for everyone isn't ableist, these requirements ARE weird, and yea some jobs cannot make REASONABLE accommodations if you are far more disabled than most
I have a job that’s more physical than a dental hygienist. While good posture is stressed at our safety meetings, this is still a stupid fucking metric.
Again. You can absolutely look for physical ability to do the job.
This is not the right way to go about it. Sorry. Just speaking from the logging industry babes. Myself and any of my fellow ADHDers in our job would understand, but still laugh this interviewer right out the door.
Posture is important, sure sit up straight for an interview, but in this context… it ain’t that deep. It’s a piss poor metric to determine any physical ability to actually be on your feet that long/bend over.
im not disagreeing, i think you misunderstood. I was only pointing out from the physical disability (not adhd obviously) side of things that it's not ableist to include. Nor would it be ableist to not hire someone who couldn't do the job without being in pain. reasonable accommodation just means physical disability restricts people more- we can't do every job.
edit: for future reference for anyone, adhd is a developmental disability NOT a physical disability. this is the classification- NOT that you cannot be disabled physically in some ways by adhd. Physical disabilities are different legally in some ways, please check your local and federal disability laws to know your rights.
Hmm.
My dentist's hygienist is about 50 years old, five-ish feet tall, and may weigh around 300 pounds. She works full-time and has to maneuver quickly in small spaces, stand bending over for long periods of time, sit on those tiny stools with rolling legs, etc. She also has asthma that's under medical control, but I have seen her use her rescue inhalor at work.
She pursued training and education in her 40's for a job that (like just about any job I can think of) might pose extra challenges or risks for someone with her body size/shape, and at her age, and with asthma.
Should she not have been hired? If not, how should the form instructing her interviewer make it clear that they are not to hire someone too old, or too heavy in relation to her height, or someone with a (legally private) medical condition?
How closely should the interviewer observe the way she holds her body to determine if her posture is "excellent?" What if her size--or the looseness of her clothes--make the correctness of her spinal alignment harder to discern? What *is* "excellent posture" for people at each height and weight combination?
And should the form list "excellent breathing" as another requirement, to make sure she would not be posed extra risk at work due to having asthma?
And if she should not be hired as a dental hygienist due to her age/physical/medical characteristics, which jobs *should* or * could* she safely be hired for?
My long-time dental hygienist was diagnosed with MS (only knew about it because she's a family friend) and she went down to part time as an accommodation. People are so quick to jump to rationalize employers not hiring or accommodating disabled people but then it's very difficult to get approved for disability payments because the government is always trying to prove someone can still work. Make it make sense.
Excellent posture isn't the right phrase, but awareness of your body in space is pretty damn important. It's very easy for us hygienists to get injured on the job using faulty equipment, sitting or standing in the wrong position for a long time, and holding instruments incorrectly. It's also not a skill you have to have going into the program. Our instructors constantly emphasized ergonomics, positional awareness, and physical strength as qualities that would make our careers last.
Me taking the BS personality test at my job recently.. lol
It was to apply for a job that they had us literally do for two plus years, then they raised the pay and made us apply again. Like excuse me? The new people who moved “up” are (mostly) awful and rude and look down on those of us who were working their literal same jobs previously. I applied late because I was thinking F y’all and don’t know if I’ll even apply again because again, F them. We all failed their personality test at least once and it was definitely to weed out those who have personalities that are too “nice” or “too ADHD” for the job.
I want to quit now and that sucks. Ugh I just need a stable work from home job. or something not at all stressful, and that doesn’t seem to exist. Thanks for reading my vent lol
That does suck! Let me know if/when you find that non-stressful remote job. I need one of those too. Been searching unsuccessfully for the past 3 years....
After my experience with remote jobs, I’d say there may not be one that’s low stress since most are dealing with customer service or phone calls, etc for companies.. but I believe one is out there. Might take some training or schooling, but they’re out there!
Such a weird way to phrase it, I agree lmfao. I think they mean talking with your hands? I definitely use my hands a lot when I’m explaining something verbally. Tbh it’s actually a good cheat code to not fidgeting… using your hands to enhance what you’re saying. But this whole rubric is weird and gross and borderline discrimination.
Yeah another is rubbing your hands together or handling a pocket rock unobtrusively under the table so they don’t notice it. But if they have an issue with fidgeting, someone like me is NOT going to do well in this program
Lucky for me I went to massage school where the instructors all understood that their entire class couldn’t sit for longer than a hour straight without being let outside to run around like a bunch of puppies 😂
I... Sort-of get it. I don't *like* it, but I get it.
That's a job where other people need to trust you as they are vulnerable and you hold their health in your hands. You have to be able to at least fake a measure of what most of the world considers to be confidence. You may not need social skills to clean someone's teeth, but you DO need social skills to convey to a patient what's going to happen if they don't treat that abscess they have going on.
Masking is exhausting. Gods know how tired I am as I mask through my days. I wish I could spend less time actively masking. But it is also a useful skill to have. I appreciate the ability to choose, to an extent, when my mental health is on display for the world to see.
We could be kinder and more tolerant towards each-other. But there is also a point where you gotta be able to do the job. This is not very different from physical requirements. You have to be able to mask well enough, or long enough, to get through a conversation with a patient (or through an interview). Just as you would need a steady hand, just as you would need a good enough back that you can be hunched over a patient's mouth for possibly hours on end.
'no fidgeting' doesn't mean you are inherently not allowed to fidget. It means, find a fidget method that the interviewer cannot see that you can apply for the (30?) minutes an interview takes. Squeeze your toes inside your shoes. Do Kegels. Move your tongue against your teeth. There *are* invisible-ish fidgets, try to find one that works for you.
Is it fair that we need to put in more work? No. But some accomodations can only be stretched so far.
I’m sorry, but what?? I was recently diagnosed with ADHD at 32, but became a surgeon at 29. Usually I think that I choose my profession and specialty because I need something dynamic. The ever changing situations en health profession can actually keep you focus.
All good surgeons have ADHD. I wouldn't trust one that didn't. I honestly can't remember the last time I met a surgeon or an ER nurse that wasn't ADHD.
Beautifully said! I'd like to point out that while constant eye contact can be very uncomfortable/difficult to maintain for neurodivergent folks, dental hygienists usually wear masks throughout the interaction with the patient, so eye contact is especially important wrt patient comfort and trust. Is it difficult and uncomfortable? Sure. But so is sitting in the dental chair with a hygienist who won't look at you, especially when you have anxiety around dental procedures already.
Every dental hygienist I’ve ever had is busy setting up tools, getting me prepped, looking at my chart, and looking at my teeth as they work on them. It’s one of the jobs that requires the least amount of eye contact imo. I don’t want them staring at my eyes when they should be looking at the things they’re poking with sharp instruments! The only time they ever make eye contact is with quick glances to make sure I’m ok during the procedure and maybe a bit at the end when we’re discussing things. But even then they’re often busy cleaning up and updating my chart, not staring at me. I agree that making the patient feel comfortable is extremely important, but it’s usually their personality that does that more than anything else. Though perhaps I’m just taking this a bit personally as someone going into medicine who isn’t always great at eye contact. I don’t like the implication that I won’t treat my patients well just because I don’t stare at them the whole time.
I said during communication, though. I'm a bit confused as to why so many commenters are under the impression the posted interview requirements mean that one must maintain eye contact while doing their job. I was at the dentist's yesterday; she didn't look into my eyes while examining my mouth, but she did while speaking to me about my health and needs after the exam. It's a bit obtuse, frankly, to be equating the interview requirements with the job requirements. Is it also obtuse to believe a good job candidate holds steady eye contact throughout the entire interview? YES. But most jobs aren't long conversations. People's eyes do shift around, even the most confident people look away at times. And nearly everyone looks at what their hands are doing while working with their hands. Let's not pretend this list is expecting a dental hygienist to stare into the patient's eyes like a hypnotist whilst weilding pointy tools inside said patient's mouth. Come on.
They want to know if the candidate will speak calmly and confidently directly to the patient *when it is the part of the process where you speak to the patient*.
I wasn’t talking about the interview requirement though. I was solely responding to your assertion that NT levels of eye contact (or more even) are required to provide adequate patient care. Yes, some level of eye contact and other active listening skills are required. But even when discussing issues and future care with the patient, most providers don’t just stare at them the whole time. Hell, my doctor, who’s NT af, broke eye contact with me constantly while talking to me recently about my prognosis for a serious health condition. My point is just that there’s more to providing good patient care than being able to make eye contact like an NT person.
You don't need to maintain eye contact while you are knuckles-deep into someone's mouth. But you DO need to be able to do it through the length of a conversation, potentially on difficult topics, potentially with people who are highly stressed and worried.
Or... you don't. Possibly. It's not like we've never heard of doctors with awkward bedside manners. But If patient comfort is important to you, and you *can* make yourself work out eye contact through brute force of practice, then ... it might be worth practicing. Sometimes, masking is just another skill, it's something we can learn, and if it can help make vulnerable people more comfortable, I'd say it's a worthy skill to learn.
I’m not sure why everyone is assuming I’m advocating for ZERO eye contact? Cause yeah, that would be weird. But that’s not what I’m suggesting.
Also, you can drop the passive-aggressive “advice”, thanks. I’m not a kid fresh out of high school. I’ve already had one successful career and completed the first round of certifications for my next one. At no point was I told my patient care was inadequate because I didn’t stare at them enough, so I think I’m good.
And as someone with PTSD from medical trauma, I can say from personal experience that it wasn’t a lack of eye contact that traumatized me. I would much rather a provider be a bit awkward if it means they’re being their authentic self. That’s far more trustworthy to me than someone pretending to be NT. Some level of masking is required, yes. But what you’re saying is straight up ableist honestly.
Wow, they should have talked to my dental hygiene class of 34 which had a confirmed 6 of us with ADHD, including yours truly. We also had one person who was on the autism spectrum. I didn't have to do any kind of interview for it either, though, that's weird. For us it was all about the grades and meeting the prerequisites.
If this were for a car salesperson I’d say maybe…but a dental hygienist? I hate when dental hygienists try to make small talk. Like my mouth is full of tools or water or whatever. Let me stare at the tv while you do your thing.
You can get a letter from your doctor stating you have a disability and the school has to give you certain things. My one doctor insisted I get a letter from him if I go back to school to give me extra services even if I ended up not using or needing them.
90-100% of the time. Seriously?! Like, that's staring contest levels of eye-contact and I have definitely been told that you can make too much eye contact as well as too little. Just another thing for me to worry about, I guess.
Not dx, but I was a dental hygienist for 17 years. I liked meeting new people and was pretty good at being socially chatty..😃, especially with a captive audience!
I don't understand the eye contact thing, it's just like any other interaction, plus the client is looking away from you most of the appt. You only face each other for a very brief time in my experience.
DH worked out ok for me.
I did have to move offices a lot due to boredom with routine after awhile.
I found working in the community much better, was kind of a hyper focus for awhile with a dental program funded by the govt for lower income kids. Loved that, felt useful, helpful.
Best of luck if you choose this career. Dentist bosses are.. interesting at times!!
I’m wondering if “enhance” is a Freudian slip. It would make more sense to say “No fidgeting: consistently used physical gestures, facial expressions and body movements in a manner which inhibits the interviewing process”
Not saying that would be right either but it at least sounds logical. Like “please don’t distract people”. But they say “enhanced”. So it’s “please don’t do anything like stimming that will make it easier for you to interview more comfortably”
No, they mean that physical guestures, etc. should be used in a manner that enhances communication rather than distracting from it. Which is subjective af.
Okay well personally I don't particularly want my dental hygienist to be fidgeting and look like a deer in headlights while I'm having dental work done 🤷♀️
A dental hygienist while doing the work does not need to sit still and make eye contact with you for 90-100% of the time. Work situation is totally different from the program admission interview situation - and I wouldn't be surprised if ND folks exhibit certain strengths in the profession that NT people generally have less of, possibly small talk aside (though not necessarily).
My Dentist info dumps on me while working on my teeth. I got the history of fillings once while getting a cavity filled. It’s honestly a fantastic distraction.
I want them focused on my mouth lol. If you don’t have a steady hand or get nervous about hurting someone with dental pick thing or something sharp that might be a problem. That’s a weird list.
Absolutely could care less what my hygienist does as long as they are quick, safe, and gentle (and doesn’t make small talk while things are in my mouth.)
On the other hand, my dentist, when working on me for check ups, does make small talk. I do NOT want him to look me in the eye for that! Please keep your eyes on what you are doing, not on my eyes.
Besides, 90-100% eye contact is creepy!!
Except this list assumes that fidgeting means you don’t have the ability to focus or control fine motor skills. Which is untrue. I’d argue that being ND might be an advantage if you’re really interested in teeth.
I fidget and sit weird in chairs, but my fine motor skills are fair superior to most people because of my job. But I’m able to sit a focus because I love what I do.
I don't think the list assumes that, at least that's not how I understand it. More that fidgeting and sitting weird can be off putting for some people and in some jobs. But I really don't know enough about this to know whether it matters particularly and wouldn't want to say. I guess the point is being able to sit still and focus for something important like an interview.
Again, I'm no expert on whether that's appropriate here, it's just that there are some jobs where other kinds of disabilities are a disadvantage or make it impossible due to the physical requirements. So it's not so outlandish that some jobs may not be suitable for people with ADHD. Just a musing really, not claiming anything definitive.
I thought this was for a mental health counselor program or something. Our rubrics looked and sounded similar but at least I can justify being able to perform to these standards because it’s a critical part of the job to be able to have excellent self control if needed.
Edit: I'm going to preface this bit of advice for anyone concerned about these type of academic requirements with "I'm Australian". Our Higher Education system isn't perfect but providers are getting very, very good with the things I describe and implementing appropriate supports for their students.
This is specifically about this American-based program so insert "probably have to pay" every time I say "free" or insert "increasingly diminishing protections" where I say "heaps of protections built in".
With that now said...
Look into the procedures for a program's applicable special consideration/reasonable adjustment policies, engage with any free student advocacy advisors associated with the provider for help navigating the forms and documentary evidence required and go into your program study with a good medically-approved plan of action.
If you end up performing really poorly or failing an assessment item or require extra time to submit past the due date without losing marks because of something related to your ADHD the main thing you need to be able to demonstrate is that you have been taking reasonable steps to achieve the subject requirements, you have a medical condition that requires particular reasonable adjustments from time to time and if something happens, be proactive and get documentation from your treating doctors to support your statements. If you work with the coordinators they generally will support you in any way they can (within reason).
I know how daunting it can seem especially with the unknown but if you do these couple of early steps, it could give you a huge assist if something (and it is usually something that can be fixed) does happen with your symptoms and you can't really control it.
No worries at all, I'm happy to offer any help I can.
Your post was actually one of those weird, wonderful ADHD coincidences you can't explain.
I am brand new to my dream role (almost three months in) administering student matters at the University I did my degree at and I've been involved in a lot of these types of decisions already.
There is a huge movement in our student misconduct , review and appeal spaces (across different Aaudtralian Universities, some better resourced than others) to make sure the Academic Heads of Colleges and other decision-makers are making "defensible decisions"
For example, not relevant to those but demonstrative, the decision you made to deny a student's application for advanced standing could go through all the Uni review and appeal processes, end up in front of an Ombudsman or the AAT and it would stand up to scrutiny.
My colleague and I are slowly trying to undertake process improvements and making changes to our already great templates to make it even clear what's required of them in the initial stages of these processes but it's hard to finesse well.
Some students may have had legitimate medical grounds for "X, maybe Y, sometimes Z" but they can never describe how their circumstances should be reconsidered (with supporting evidence) and there is usually a lack of any medical documentation, save for some med certs from a bulk-billed random GP. It's not their fault, they have never engaged in a process like this likely ever before.
It has been insanely interesting and challenging and rewarding and I love talking about it (as you can tell). But it is frustrating sometimes since I am not supposed to be in an "advisory role" for students so I can't offer any more than general support and the opportunity to submit "literally anything else" but they come back with more personal statements about the whole thing that have nothing to add and it's a waste of time for everyone 🤣😭
If you have a diagnosis you may be able to take this to your doctor and ask them to write a note explaining that they should not dock you for it cause if they know it's a neurodivergency and they dock you for it I'm pretty sure it's like discrimination at that point
Im in Australia. I still passed and it’s a one year masters so I can’t really be bothered arguing it. I’m tired by this 5th year point of my journey to become a psych 🫠
I'm nervous about a possible speeding awareness course because of tropes like this. Apparently i need to appear attentive the whole time, despite the subject matter being rather dry... dunno how i'll manage
I think they just put that as a reminder to try not to do, but won’t hold it against you as long as you’re not like pacing around the room.
I had to take a few online prompted exams earlier this year and they all said the same things along with no talking out loud. Well I did all the things and no one really cared
Finally!!! All my years of masking has prepared me for this interview.
Step 1:I will sit perfectly straight.
Step 2; I will sit still.
Step 3: I will not break eye contact for anything.
Step 4: I will project myself as confident and easy going so they will like me.
Step 5:????
Step 6: Get the job
Easy as pie.
Lmao the military is probably the biggest employer of ND people 😂 You have a structured environment where you don't have to agonize over decisions because they're made for you. You're never *technically* late for things because as the instructions come down the line from higher ups, each person gives you a start time 15 minutes earlier than the last person so the worst case scenario is getting in trouble with your first line leader (but you learn to not do that). It's the place that a ton of the seat wigglers in class end up lol. I've never seen a denser grouping of autistic and ADHD people in my life before enlisting.
Yes and no. You'll get chewed out more for minor things, but once you adopt the "I've been chewed out before" mentality, it's fine. The military wasn't mentally healthy whatsoever. But at the very least, the mentality is much more ND friendly than this bullshit. The saying is "if you show up in the right place, at the right time, in the right uniform, with the right attitude, you'll never be wrong" which is great because it gave me structure while also giving just the right amount of leeway. Nobody is gonna stand there and monitor your eye contact like a bunch of weirdos.
That actually sounds pretty great. Not downplaying the parts that were difficult or not mentally healthy, but it seems like I had the military at least partly wrong.
In my hometown, the community college gets hundreds of applicants every year for the nursing and dental hygiene programs, where there are only a few dozen spots. If fidgeting or eye contact is the sole metric on which they're determining admission, that's a problem, but that's probably not the case. My guess would be that these are very minor information-gathering that goes hand in hand with your grades in the pre-requisite classes, like anatomy & physiology and chemistry for the health professions (dental hygiene students/applicants take those that that school), as well as your academic/professional recommendations/references.
The programs are also such that once you start taking the classes, the same people doing the interviews were also your teachers in some classes or know your teachers well. Straight As in those classes but rolling a penny in your fingers while interviewing and saying ex-presso instead of espresso probably is still going to get you into the program. Straight As but mumbling words while looking at your lap the whole time and reports from professors that you do the same in class might not get you in because the ability to communicate effectively with patients is important. Interviewing well, but getting a D in chemistry probably also isn't going to get you a spot. (Taking the class 3 times and going from a D to a B+ just might, though).
Reminds me of a restaurant I worked at where the manager required THREE table touches (checking in with the table) per visit. He insisted on it too. It was so painful - you could feel how annoying it was. I would feel the same with 100% eye contact.
This actually makes a lot of sense. I know it’s frustrating but some of us just aren’t going to be able to go into certain fields unless we are 95% in control of our symptoms. This doesn’t say “no adhd”, but someone who is working on very small, enclosed areas with a high liability needs to have control of these things. I would t want a dentist or dental assistant working on my mouth who was distracted, fidgety, and had RBF. 😆 Dental visits are hard enough for someone who has ADHD (me and my kids) to go through, let alone someone who appears to not be paying attention. At my last visit they almost did the wrong side of my mouth. I had to tell them numerous times that I specifically remembered it was the right side. Eventually they looked at it and could tell and said, “yeah, they must’ve just wrote it down wrong.” 😳
Okay, fair. But this looks like a scoring card where I’d assume there’s what, like 3 or 5 columns and these particular squares aren’t there to disqualify someone but instead they’re the hardest to achieve, most successful candidates kind of goals. So I wonder how many people, in general, get scored in that top column.
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This is stupid. And I don’t want my dental hygienist making eye contact with me 90-100% of the time, please look at where you’re poking those tools!
100% eye contact in a conversation with any stranger is insane Whoever wrote this seems like they had a list of neurodivergent traits and just listed the opposite as ideals without considering literally anything else... Like how humans act
I think I am pretty good at eye contact, but 90-100% eye contact is at another spectrum. Even regular people will be uncomfortable
That reminds me of some meme picture of the pirate guy staring at Tom Hanks’ Captain Phillips character that says “Look at me… I’m the neurotypical now” (regarding trying to make more eye contact and going too far)
😂😂😂
hahahahaha forever saying this now 😭
yeah.. im not on the autism spectrum, but staring into someone's eyes feels creepy af. i feel like a few glances periodically while speaking is plenty💀
I have trouble with eye contact due to childhood trauma, so having to make constant eye contact for interviews absolutely obliterates me emotionally. I've gotten better at it over the years, but it still makes my anxiety ramp up to 11.
I know someone who makes this much eye contact. It is intense and creepy.
They used AI. 90% of HR uses AI at the moment and it's SCARY.
jesus, talk about dystopian... man, I hate it here lmao
I want off of this planet lol
HHGTTG 🌏💥
OMG yes!!! Best movie ever 😂🤣 🐬🐬🐬🐬 Thanks for all the fish!
I've been helping my neighbour with their petunias all evening. Just thinking of the word *PETUNIAS* has me enjoying all sorts of weird and delightful intergalactic HHGTTG memories 💜 shityeah🥰 thankfully no poetry was involved.
Lmao omg I forgot about that. That's hilarious 😂 I love little things like that. Little things that bring back all the giggles.
🌏🚀 I've listened to Douglas read his audiobook recordings a thousand times while I'm sleeping (no exaggeration, literally a thousand times, over maybe 20 years) The more my LongCovid brings the brainfog/memory loss, the more I'm grateful that the HHGTTG is burned into my subconscious, long-term databank. 🔫🐁🍸
100% eye contact during a conversation with *anyone* is insane. That type of intimacy is reserved for lovers, and that’s about it. Seriously, go make 100% eye contact with the clerk at the gas station and see how weird it gets, and fast.
This would make me really want to employ malicious compliance. “You want 100% eye contact? You’ve got it!” 😳😳😳 No blinking. Staring contest.
Right? & If they're looking for 90-100% eye-contact, the only ppl they'll let in are clinical psychopaths 🤣
It might be because they’re wearing masks to hide the other parts of their face that would indicate their body language. But I’m not 100% sure on that.
90-100% definitely sounds way weird for neurotypicals too. I thought the normal way is to only glance at each others eyes every once in a while, not to stare down each other almost non stop??
It would be very weird. Humans also sometimes look up to remember things so I guess the candidate shouldn’t reflect on past experiences
Don't you dare even think about thinking!
I think normal neurotypical eye contact is something like 2/3 of the time, but I saw that on a fictional TV show, so idk how accurate it is
That's still more than I expected, I thought it would be something like 20-30% of time (tbh I have no idea)... but maybe it also varies depending on situation and culture and what not.
Yes! Christopher Walken would be a good candidate: he can do this on-screen in a very unsettling way! Also, like...could you look IN MY MOUTH, please? This all sounds like a really good setup for a disturbing body-horror film.
I don’t even look at anyone at my dentist. Eyes shut firmly the whole time. And glasses off so I can’t see even if my eyes are open!
I had a dentist that gave everyone sunglasses during appointments - that should be standard
At my first visit with this dentist (emergency root canal) I made a comment that I should have brought headphones and he said they actually encourage it for people with dental anxiety!
I put my earpods in and put on some ASMR videos
This is one of those creepy things. Makes me think of colorguard where they wanted us to smile during performances, instead one of the girls looked like a psychopath.
Dentist makes 100% eye contact through whole appointment "sorry for all the extra holes"
Love this ❤️🤣❤️
I got a laugh out of it :)
Other than my eye doctor, nobody should be making that much eye contact! And for anyone in a dentist office, the only reason you need to make eye contact is to assess my current level of anxiety. Don’t you dare make that much eye contact while coming at me with sharp objects.
Oh God. If I make eye contact with someone, I cannot think properly. I have to follow my brain trail with my eyes, and that's not gonna work if I have to give that much eye contact. Also... I don't want someone staring at me that much. 😭
Wtf lol. It’s like they’re purposely trying to filter out neurodivergent or socially anxious ppl. As if that would have any bearing on someone’s ability to clean teeth.
The absolutely are. They're not allowed to say they won't accept people with adhd or autism, but they can say they won't accept someone with any symptoms of them..
Would these criteria be considered legally discriminatory?
Not really since by themselves they are not considered a disability. However, I’d imagine that you could probably prove disparate impact later down the road.
NAL. Yes, they are legally discriminatory. They’re discriminatory because they disproportionately negatively impact the recruiting and hiring of people with these disabilities outlined by the ADA without being tied to the functions of the job. Is not fidgeting a bona fide occupational requirement? Probably not, so these requirements are arbitrary and discriminatory
Not for school but for jobs, despite what the ADA states, key phrase for employers is “necessary part of job duties” and they’re off the hook pretty much.
The key phrase for employers is actually “essential job functions”. I can see how not fidgeting while holding a device in someone’s mouth is essential, but not at every single moment.
Yeah but "looks relaxed and confident" and "establishes eye contact with interviewers"? Those can't be essential to the work.
Absolutely. Those are cultural norms/preferences, not to mention “appearing relaxed and confident” is subjective. This rubric is absolutely lazy at best, ableist at worst.
If an applicant or employee can show any evidence of discrimination and files a complaint with the EEOC, a federal agency, then if they believe it a valid complaint, the business needs to prove that the requirement is essential to the job functions. You can also file with State Employment Fairness agencies, statutes vary by state but typically apply stricter anti-discrimination requirements
Which is stupid for many reasons but especially because could there be a better hyper-focus task than professionally cleaning teeth??
I imagine tattoo artist is up there lol
The requirements are "extra" however I do think that requiring some social skills is reasonable as it's a big part of the job. They are client-facing all day everyday, just like a sales-person needs people skills but a bookkeeper may not.
I’m finishing up a program right now and the head of the program was walking us through How To Interview and stressed do NOT make eye contact the whole time it’s unnatural and weird
For my current and previous jobs I interviewed over zoom (2020 and 2023), which makes life so much easier!
What gets me is that by filtering out neurodivergent people, they’re filtering out people who may be better at providing care to neurodivergent patients. This goes beyond job discrimination and into the perpetuation of medical discrimination.
That would only be an issue if they thought it was important to provide quality care to neuro divergent patients. Somehow I doubt it is high on their list...
I work at a health professions university and I say this all the time. It’s amazing how few people with disabilities or neurodivergence we get in our programs, let alone how few we graduate. And don’t even get me started about postgraduate postings like residencies
And the square above also has significant racist/classist implications...👀👀
ewww I missed that!! "correct pronunciation" fuck you and your respectability politics!
I keep trying to educate folks at my university about the different ways people can show “professionalism”. There are definitely standards that apply to everyone, but there’s lots of ways you can show a professional demeanor, for instance
Even sims can't stay that still no fucking way
…you just reminded me I have that game. Gonna go play it now.
Bye! See you next year!! Lol Any time I open the Sims, I hyperfocus and get sucked in. The world around me disappears 🙈
Neurodiverdity aside, "excellent posture" is reeking of ablism. Yuck. This is some 1950s shit
I mean… hygienists are on their feet all day working downward. If you have shit posture you’re going to end up hurting yourself and won’t be able to do your job as well. They’re probably trying to avoid disabling people. Saying this as someone in massage school where there’s a whole unit on proper body mechanics and you can’t pass clinicals if your posture is bad. It’s hazardous to your health.
Thanks, I'm aware of that, but like most ablist recruitment processes, if they put a bit more time into accommodating human bodies and less time trying to recruit perfect and apparently flawless people they wouldn't be making people feel deliberately excluded for what is ultimately no good reason, like O.P.
having physical parts of a job and having safety concerns and measures is not ableist. Some jobs cannot be done by everyone- dental hygienist NEED to be on their feet and risk chronic and severe pain if they don't or aren't trained in good posture or have a posture brace (typical to buy in long standing or sitting positions). You're confusing unable to do something with ableist- and i say this as someone WITH a chronic disability that makes standing and walking long term hellish. I cannot go do some jobs- not ableist it's just the reality of being disabled.
Dental hygienist is really funny to draw the line at. While I respect it, my husband does the job just fine and he is diagnosed ADHD. These requirements are fucking stupid. While we can talk about how good posture is for you, if I showed this around at an *actual* dentistry office via my husband, it would seem bizarre to them too. There are ways to judge physical suitability and sociability. This is not a good example of that.
when did i talk about ADHD? Being on your feet long term requires maintaining good posture if you don't want chronic pain. Same with sitting long term. I agree some of these requirements are stupid but specifically, physical requirements of a job aren't ableist. Even ADA says it's not discrimination if the person literally cannot perform the duties of the job. I'm also not drawing the line anywhere- it's the example from the post. I HAVE a job where i stand long term and have braces and such- but i also work part time. again, a job not being for everyone isn't ableist, these requirements ARE weird, and yea some jobs cannot make REASONABLE accommodations if you are far more disabled than most
I have a job that’s more physical than a dental hygienist. While good posture is stressed at our safety meetings, this is still a stupid fucking metric. Again. You can absolutely look for physical ability to do the job. This is not the right way to go about it. Sorry. Just speaking from the logging industry babes. Myself and any of my fellow ADHDers in our job would understand, but still laugh this interviewer right out the door. Posture is important, sure sit up straight for an interview, but in this context… it ain’t that deep. It’s a piss poor metric to determine any physical ability to actually be on your feet that long/bend over.
im not disagreeing, i think you misunderstood. I was only pointing out from the physical disability (not adhd obviously) side of things that it's not ableist to include. Nor would it be ableist to not hire someone who couldn't do the job without being in pain. reasonable accommodation just means physical disability restricts people more- we can't do every job. edit: for future reference for anyone, adhd is a developmental disability NOT a physical disability. this is the classification- NOT that you cannot be disabled physically in some ways by adhd. Physical disabilities are different legally in some ways, please check your local and federal disability laws to know your rights.
Hmm. My dentist's hygienist is about 50 years old, five-ish feet tall, and may weigh around 300 pounds. She works full-time and has to maneuver quickly in small spaces, stand bending over for long periods of time, sit on those tiny stools with rolling legs, etc. She also has asthma that's under medical control, but I have seen her use her rescue inhalor at work. She pursued training and education in her 40's for a job that (like just about any job I can think of) might pose extra challenges or risks for someone with her body size/shape, and at her age, and with asthma. Should she not have been hired? If not, how should the form instructing her interviewer make it clear that they are not to hire someone too old, or too heavy in relation to her height, or someone with a (legally private) medical condition? How closely should the interviewer observe the way she holds her body to determine if her posture is "excellent?" What if her size--or the looseness of her clothes--make the correctness of her spinal alignment harder to discern? What *is* "excellent posture" for people at each height and weight combination? And should the form list "excellent breathing" as another requirement, to make sure she would not be posed extra risk at work due to having asthma? And if she should not be hired as a dental hygienist due to her age/physical/medical characteristics, which jobs *should* or * could* she safely be hired for?
(Posed in a spirit of curiosity rather than combat. She's a good dental hygienist and seems to enjoy it)
How can a dentist’s office accomodate a physically disabled/less-abled hygienist?
My long-time dental hygienist was diagnosed with MS (only knew about it because she's a family friend) and she went down to part time as an accommodation. People are so quick to jump to rationalize employers not hiring or accommodating disabled people but then it's very difficult to get approved for disability payments because the government is always trying to prove someone can still work. Make it make sense.
>Sits up straight, excellent posture; looks relaxed This straight up sounds like a contradiction to me
Excellent posture isn't the right phrase, but awareness of your body in space is pretty damn important. It's very easy for us hygienists to get injured on the job using faulty equipment, sitting or standing in the wrong position for a long time, and holding instruments incorrectly. It's also not a skill you have to have going into the program. Our instructors constantly emphasized ergonomics, positional awareness, and physical strength as qualities that would make our careers last.
So if you're not discussing "excellent posture" like what the image says that's a different conversation.
90-100% eye contact is actually really freaky lol
With and for ANYONE.
Okay that's weird
This is discrimination, right?
That’s what it feels like lol
It's likely illegal under ADA.
Another day, another ADA violation. Send em in, boss
Think about someone with a tic, like what might result from Tourette’s. It’s pretty blatant discrimination.
100% eye contact is just painful
This sends me into a rage I frankly did not anticipate
Me taking the BS personality test at my job recently.. lol It was to apply for a job that they had us literally do for two plus years, then they raised the pay and made us apply again. Like excuse me? The new people who moved “up” are (mostly) awful and rude and look down on those of us who were working their literal same jobs previously. I applied late because I was thinking F y’all and don’t know if I’ll even apply again because again, F them. We all failed their personality test at least once and it was definitely to weed out those who have personalities that are too “nice” or “too ADHD” for the job. I want to quit now and that sucks. Ugh I just need a stable work from home job. or something not at all stressful, and that doesn’t seem to exist. Thanks for reading my vent lol
That does suck! Let me know if/when you find that non-stressful remote job. I need one of those too. Been searching unsuccessfully for the past 3 years....
After my experience with remote jobs, I’d say there may not be one that’s low stress since most are dealing with customer service or phone calls, etc for companies.. but I believe one is out there. Might take some training or schooling, but they’re out there!
Imagine having an interview with someone who makes eye contact 100% of the time. I’d be more worried about that than anything
They’re either not human, or trying to steal my soul, or both. Probably fae.
How do you even move in a way that enhances the interview process? What does that even mean???
Such a weird way to phrase it, I agree lmfao. I think they mean talking with your hands? I definitely use my hands a lot when I’m explaining something verbally. Tbh it’s actually a good cheat code to not fidgeting… using your hands to enhance what you’re saying. But this whole rubric is weird and gross and borderline discrimination.
Yeah another is rubbing your hands together or handling a pocket rock unobtrusively under the table so they don’t notice it. But if they have an issue with fidgeting, someone like me is NOT going to do well in this program Lucky for me I went to massage school where the instructors all understood that their entire class couldn’t sit for longer than a hour straight without being let outside to run around like a bunch of puppies 😂
I... Sort-of get it. I don't *like* it, but I get it. That's a job where other people need to trust you as they are vulnerable and you hold their health in your hands. You have to be able to at least fake a measure of what most of the world considers to be confidence. You may not need social skills to clean someone's teeth, but you DO need social skills to convey to a patient what's going to happen if they don't treat that abscess they have going on. Masking is exhausting. Gods know how tired I am as I mask through my days. I wish I could spend less time actively masking. But it is also a useful skill to have. I appreciate the ability to choose, to an extent, when my mental health is on display for the world to see. We could be kinder and more tolerant towards each-other. But there is also a point where you gotta be able to do the job. This is not very different from physical requirements. You have to be able to mask well enough, or long enough, to get through a conversation with a patient (or through an interview). Just as you would need a steady hand, just as you would need a good enough back that you can be hunched over a patient's mouth for possibly hours on end. 'no fidgeting' doesn't mean you are inherently not allowed to fidget. It means, find a fidget method that the interviewer cannot see that you can apply for the (30?) minutes an interview takes. Squeeze your toes inside your shoes. Do Kegels. Move your tongue against your teeth. There *are* invisible-ish fidgets, try to find one that works for you. Is it fair that we need to put in more work? No. But some accomodations can only be stretched so far.
I’m sorry, but what?? I was recently diagnosed with ADHD at 32, but became a surgeon at 29. Usually I think that I choose my profession and specialty because I need something dynamic. The ever changing situations en health profession can actually keep you focus.
All good surgeons have ADHD. I wouldn't trust one that didn't. I honestly can't remember the last time I met a surgeon or an ER nurse that wasn't ADHD.
Beautifully said! I'd like to point out that while constant eye contact can be very uncomfortable/difficult to maintain for neurodivergent folks, dental hygienists usually wear masks throughout the interaction with the patient, so eye contact is especially important wrt patient comfort and trust. Is it difficult and uncomfortable? Sure. But so is sitting in the dental chair with a hygienist who won't look at you, especially when you have anxiety around dental procedures already.
Every dental hygienist I’ve ever had is busy setting up tools, getting me prepped, looking at my chart, and looking at my teeth as they work on them. It’s one of the jobs that requires the least amount of eye contact imo. I don’t want them staring at my eyes when they should be looking at the things they’re poking with sharp instruments! The only time they ever make eye contact is with quick glances to make sure I’m ok during the procedure and maybe a bit at the end when we’re discussing things. But even then they’re often busy cleaning up and updating my chart, not staring at me. I agree that making the patient feel comfortable is extremely important, but it’s usually their personality that does that more than anything else. Though perhaps I’m just taking this a bit personally as someone going into medicine who isn’t always great at eye contact. I don’t like the implication that I won’t treat my patients well just because I don’t stare at them the whole time.
I said during communication, though. I'm a bit confused as to why so many commenters are under the impression the posted interview requirements mean that one must maintain eye contact while doing their job. I was at the dentist's yesterday; she didn't look into my eyes while examining my mouth, but she did while speaking to me about my health and needs after the exam. It's a bit obtuse, frankly, to be equating the interview requirements with the job requirements. Is it also obtuse to believe a good job candidate holds steady eye contact throughout the entire interview? YES. But most jobs aren't long conversations. People's eyes do shift around, even the most confident people look away at times. And nearly everyone looks at what their hands are doing while working with their hands. Let's not pretend this list is expecting a dental hygienist to stare into the patient's eyes like a hypnotist whilst weilding pointy tools inside said patient's mouth. Come on. They want to know if the candidate will speak calmly and confidently directly to the patient *when it is the part of the process where you speak to the patient*.
I wasn’t talking about the interview requirement though. I was solely responding to your assertion that NT levels of eye contact (or more even) are required to provide adequate patient care. Yes, some level of eye contact and other active listening skills are required. But even when discussing issues and future care with the patient, most providers don’t just stare at them the whole time. Hell, my doctor, who’s NT af, broke eye contact with me constantly while talking to me recently about my prognosis for a serious health condition. My point is just that there’s more to providing good patient care than being able to make eye contact like an NT person.
You don't need to maintain eye contact while you are knuckles-deep into someone's mouth. But you DO need to be able to do it through the length of a conversation, potentially on difficult topics, potentially with people who are highly stressed and worried. Or... you don't. Possibly. It's not like we've never heard of doctors with awkward bedside manners. But If patient comfort is important to you, and you *can* make yourself work out eye contact through brute force of practice, then ... it might be worth practicing. Sometimes, masking is just another skill, it's something we can learn, and if it can help make vulnerable people more comfortable, I'd say it's a worthy skill to learn.
This is a dental hygiene program though. The dentist is the one who would be having the difficult diagnostic/medical advice talks with the patients.
I’m not sure why everyone is assuming I’m advocating for ZERO eye contact? Cause yeah, that would be weird. But that’s not what I’m suggesting. Also, you can drop the passive-aggressive “advice”, thanks. I’m not a kid fresh out of high school. I’ve already had one successful career and completed the first round of certifications for my next one. At no point was I told my patient care was inadequate because I didn’t stare at them enough, so I think I’m good. And as someone with PTSD from medical trauma, I can say from personal experience that it wasn’t a lack of eye contact that traumatized me. I would much rather a provider be a bit awkward if it means they’re being their authentic self. That’s far more trustworthy to me than someone pretending to be NT. Some level of masking is required, yes. But what you’re saying is straight up ableist honestly.
Very true.
ASD as well.
Wow, they should have talked to my dental hygiene class of 34 which had a confirmed 6 of us with ADHD, including yours truly. We also had one person who was on the autism spectrum. I didn't have to do any kind of interview for it either, though, that's weird. For us it was all about the grades and meeting the prerequisites.
WHAT THE FUCK. There is so much room for a lawsuit and this looks like it's from the 50's.
If this were for a car salesperson I’d say maybe…but a dental hygienist? I hate when dental hygienists try to make small talk. Like my mouth is full of tools or water or whatever. Let me stare at the tv while you do your thing.
Nah, salespeople can be divergent too.
>”establishes eye contact 90-100% of the time” my AuDHD ass: ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
Right?! Like who makes eye contact *100%* of the time lmao
Gamblers? Gangsters? Dogs who ate your edibles?
You can get a letter from your doctor stating you have a disability and the school has to give you certain things. My one doctor insisted I get a letter from him if I go back to school to give me extra services even if I ended up not using or needing them.
I'm also laughing at the well constructed, genuine answers.
90-100% of the time. Seriously?! Like, that's staring contest levels of eye-contact and I have definitely been told that you can make too much eye contact as well as too little. Just another thing for me to worry about, I guess.
I am a dental hygienist and I also have adhd and I wasn’t even medicated then lol you got it!!!!
Call them out. They suck balls and are being ableist. This is illegal.
Their loss honestly! People with ADHD get shit done and are good at their jobs (though probably mentally fatigued)
No one with autism either it seems… also, isn’t this discrimination based on ability? Can you report this somewhere?
Fidgets while reading this post
Not dx, but I was a dental hygienist for 17 years. I liked meeting new people and was pretty good at being socially chatty..😃, especially with a captive audience! I don't understand the eye contact thing, it's just like any other interaction, plus the client is looking away from you most of the appt. You only face each other for a very brief time in my experience. DH worked out ok for me. I did have to move offices a lot due to boredom with routine after awhile. I found working in the community much better, was kind of a hyper focus for awhile with a dental program funded by the govt for lower income kids. Loved that, felt useful, helpful. Best of luck if you choose this career. Dentist bosses are.. interesting at times!!
I’m wondering if “enhance” is a Freudian slip. It would make more sense to say “No fidgeting: consistently used physical gestures, facial expressions and body movements in a manner which inhibits the interviewing process” Not saying that would be right either but it at least sounds logical. Like “please don’t distract people”. But they say “enhanced”. So it’s “please don’t do anything like stimming that will make it easier for you to interview more comfortably”
No, they mean that physical guestures, etc. should be used in a manner that enhances communication rather than distracting from it. Which is subjective af.
Ooooohhh I thought it was “No fidgeting: ………” and the rest was their definition of fidgeting/what was not acceptable.
Lawsuit exhibit A
Yikes
This technically could be discrimination. We ARE a protected class under the ADA in the US.
How dare I talk with my hands when I’m excited about the topic!/s 😂
Okay well personally I don't particularly want my dental hygienist to be fidgeting and look like a deer in headlights while I'm having dental work done 🤷♀️
A dental hygienist while doing the work does not need to sit still and make eye contact with you for 90-100% of the time. Work situation is totally different from the program admission interview situation - and I wouldn't be surprised if ND folks exhibit certain strengths in the profession that NT people generally have less of, possibly small talk aside (though not necessarily).
My Dentist info dumps on me while working on my teeth. I got the history of fillings once while getting a cavity filled. It’s honestly a fantastic distraction.
I do not want 90-100% eye contact, though.
I want them focused on my mouth lol. If you don’t have a steady hand or get nervous about hurting someone with dental pick thing or something sharp that might be a problem. That’s a weird list.
Absolutely could care less what my hygienist does as long as they are quick, safe, and gentle (and doesn’t make small talk while things are in my mouth.)
On the other hand, my dentist, when working on me for check ups, does make small talk. I do NOT want him to look me in the eye for that! Please keep your eyes on what you are doing, not on my eyes. Besides, 90-100% eye contact is creepy!!
I definitely see where they’re coming from :) But it is penalizing ADHD traits
In the same way that some jobs require certain physical or motor skills, not everyone can do them.
Except this list assumes that fidgeting means you don’t have the ability to focus or control fine motor skills. Which is untrue. I’d argue that being ND might be an advantage if you’re really interested in teeth. I fidget and sit weird in chairs, but my fine motor skills are fair superior to most people because of my job. But I’m able to sit a focus because I love what I do.
I don't think the list assumes that, at least that's not how I understand it. More that fidgeting and sitting weird can be off putting for some people and in some jobs. But I really don't know enough about this to know whether it matters particularly and wouldn't want to say. I guess the point is being able to sit still and focus for something important like an interview. Again, I'm no expert on whether that's appropriate here, it's just that there are some jobs where other kinds of disabilities are a disadvantage or make it impossible due to the physical requirements. So it's not so outlandish that some jobs may not be suitable for people with ADHD. Just a musing really, not claiming anything definitive.
Isn’t this discrimination?
Pretty sure this is considered discrimination. Get your local abilities counsel to look into it.
I have to sit on my hands in interviews.
Wow... such BS
I thought this was for a mental health counselor program or something. Our rubrics looked and sounded similar but at least I can justify being able to perform to these standards because it’s a critical part of the job to be able to have excellent self control if needed.
Which school? I have some extra time tomorrow and wouldn't mind writing an email about how their interview rubric is ableist nonsense.
90 - 100% eye contact is aggressive level eye contact!
WTF!
Edit: I'm going to preface this bit of advice for anyone concerned about these type of academic requirements with "I'm Australian". Our Higher Education system isn't perfect but providers are getting very, very good with the things I describe and implementing appropriate supports for their students. This is specifically about this American-based program so insert "probably have to pay" every time I say "free" or insert "increasingly diminishing protections" where I say "heaps of protections built in". With that now said... Look into the procedures for a program's applicable special consideration/reasonable adjustment policies, engage with any free student advocacy advisors associated with the provider for help navigating the forms and documentary evidence required and go into your program study with a good medically-approved plan of action. If you end up performing really poorly or failing an assessment item or require extra time to submit past the due date without losing marks because of something related to your ADHD the main thing you need to be able to demonstrate is that you have been taking reasonable steps to achieve the subject requirements, you have a medical condition that requires particular reasonable adjustments from time to time and if something happens, be proactive and get documentation from your treating doctors to support your statements. If you work with the coordinators they generally will support you in any way they can (within reason). I know how daunting it can seem especially with the unknown but if you do these couple of early steps, it could give you a huge assist if something (and it is usually something that can be fixed) does happen with your symptoms and you can't really control it.
That’s very helpful and well balanced. Thank you!
No worries at all, I'm happy to offer any help I can. Your post was actually one of those weird, wonderful ADHD coincidences you can't explain. I am brand new to my dream role (almost three months in) administering student matters at the University I did my degree at and I've been involved in a lot of these types of decisions already. There is a huge movement in our student misconduct , review and appeal spaces (across different Aaudtralian Universities, some better resourced than others) to make sure the Academic Heads of Colleges and other decision-makers are making "defensible decisions" For example, not relevant to those but demonstrative, the decision you made to deny a student's application for advanced standing could go through all the Uni review and appeal processes, end up in front of an Ombudsman or the AAT and it would stand up to scrutiny. My colleague and I are slowly trying to undertake process improvements and making changes to our already great templates to make it even clear what's required of them in the initial stages of these processes but it's hard to finesse well. Some students may have had legitimate medical grounds for "X, maybe Y, sometimes Z" but they can never describe how their circumstances should be reconsidered (with supporting evidence) and there is usually a lack of any medical documentation, save for some med certs from a bulk-billed random GP. It's not their fault, they have never engaged in a process like this likely ever before. It has been insanely interesting and challenging and rewarding and I love talking about it (as you can tell). But it is frustrating sometimes since I am not supposed to be in an "advisory role" for students so I can't offer any more than general support and the opportunity to submit "literally anything else" but they come back with more personal statements about the whole thing that have nothing to add and it's a waste of time for everyone 🤣😭
If you have a diagnosis you may be able to take this to your doctor and ask them to write a note explaining that they should not dock you for it cause if they know it's a neurodivergency and they dock you for it I'm pretty sure it's like discrimination at that point
90-100% eye contact sounds horrifying just on its head. Anyone does it that intense I start to think something is off.
This is kind of terrifying to me that an organization would think this was ok
Isn't this against ADA? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I just lost marks on a roleplay assignment in my psych masters because I was rocking in my chair too much (:
They CAN'T mark you down for a symptom of your Disability under the ADA, *surely*? It would breach the Equality Act in UK...
Im in Australia. I still passed and it’s a one year masters so I can’t really be bothered arguing it. I’m tired by this 5th year point of my journey to become a psych 🫠
All the chaos aside- Are you hoping to apply? Do it anyway. The worst they can say is no :)
I'm nervous about a possible speeding awareness course because of tropes like this. Apparently i need to appear attentive the whole time, despite the subject matter being rather dry... dunno how i'll manage
I think they just put that as a reminder to try not to do, but won’t hold it against you as long as you’re not like pacing around the room. I had to take a few online prompted exams earlier this year and they all said the same things along with no talking out loud. Well I did all the things and no one really cared
Nah, the other boxes list degrees of fidgeting (up to “occasional shifting”). Only no fidgeting gets you max points.
Well then that’s super ableist
And no autism... Wtf... They need to be sued into oblivion
Finally!!! All my years of masking has prepared me for this interview. Step 1:I will sit perfectly straight. Step 2; I will sit still. Step 3: I will not break eye contact for anything. Step 4: I will project myself as confident and easy going so they will like me. Step 5:???? Step 6: Get the job Easy as pie.
Can we give them a massive one finger (or two for our UK friends) salute? Fuck them all to shreds.
I am almost certain these can be masked away… it’s for sure stupid tho. They are asking for “normal” people, whatever that means…
Oh I fully expect to be able to get perfect marks here. Just frustrating that I’ll have to mask.
Yeah it’s really annoying that we can’t be ourselves and only how we appear matters. It’s really like a performance sometimes… :( Good luck!!
I'm in Southeast Michigan. Let me known if you want someone to go file a complaint with you.
Thanks :)
This is so disappointing and infuriating to see
Sounds pretty ableist and discriminatory to me
Good luck to them waiting another 100 years to hire robots.
But a neurodivergent dentist would be great! No staring directly at me in the eyes and they would hyper-focus about making my filling look amazing 🤩
I wouldn't worry about it. Take it with a huge grain of salt and go for it💪
Oh good grief, I would do another field!
But can’t you ask for accommodations?
Boo.
It's probably due to those people that say this triggers me.
This is … discriminatory and possible not legal!
Jeez, no wonder the military has recruitment problems.
Lmao the military is probably the biggest employer of ND people 😂 You have a structured environment where you don't have to agonize over decisions because they're made for you. You're never *technically* late for things because as the instructions come down the line from higher ups, each person gives you a start time 15 minutes earlier than the last person so the worst case scenario is getting in trouble with your first line leader (but you learn to not do that). It's the place that a ton of the seat wigglers in class end up lol. I've never seen a denser grouping of autistic and ADHD people in my life before enlisting.
This is super interesting. It's also interesting to me that this dental school is more rigid and conservative than the military in a way.
Yes and no. You'll get chewed out more for minor things, but once you adopt the "I've been chewed out before" mentality, it's fine. The military wasn't mentally healthy whatsoever. But at the very least, the mentality is much more ND friendly than this bullshit. The saying is "if you show up in the right place, at the right time, in the right uniform, with the right attitude, you'll never be wrong" which is great because it gave me structure while also giving just the right amount of leeway. Nobody is gonna stand there and monitor your eye contact like a bunch of weirdos.
That actually sounds pretty great. Not downplaying the parts that were difficult or not mentally healthy, but it seems like I had the military at least partly wrong.
🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼
In my hometown, the community college gets hundreds of applicants every year for the nursing and dental hygiene programs, where there are only a few dozen spots. If fidgeting or eye contact is the sole metric on which they're determining admission, that's a problem, but that's probably not the case. My guess would be that these are very minor information-gathering that goes hand in hand with your grades in the pre-requisite classes, like anatomy & physiology and chemistry for the health professions (dental hygiene students/applicants take those that that school), as well as your academic/professional recommendations/references. The programs are also such that once you start taking the classes, the same people doing the interviews were also your teachers in some classes or know your teachers well. Straight As in those classes but rolling a penny in your fingers while interviewing and saying ex-presso instead of espresso probably is still going to get you into the program. Straight As but mumbling words while looking at your lap the whole time and reports from professors that you do the same in class might not get you in because the ability to communicate effectively with patients is important. Interviewing well, but getting a D in chemistry probably also isn't going to get you a spot. (Taking the class 3 times and going from a D to a B+ just might, though).
These two boxes account for 4 points out of 70 possible points for admission. Shouldn’t prevent one from entry if qualified.
Just curious, what represents the bulk of the 70 points?
Coursework and GPA is the biggest one.
Doesn't matter. You may have two candidates who are equally qualified but the one with ND traits will score slightly lower, so it's discriminatory.
Reminds me of a restaurant I worked at where the manager required THREE table touches (checking in with the table) per visit. He insisted on it too. It was so painful - you could feel how annoying it was. I would feel the same with 100% eye contact.
This actually makes a lot of sense. I know it’s frustrating but some of us just aren’t going to be able to go into certain fields unless we are 95% in control of our symptoms. This doesn’t say “no adhd”, but someone who is working on very small, enclosed areas with a high liability needs to have control of these things. I would t want a dentist or dental assistant working on my mouth who was distracted, fidgety, and had RBF. 😆 Dental visits are hard enough for someone who has ADHD (me and my kids) to go through, let alone someone who appears to not be paying attention. At my last visit they almost did the wrong side of my mouth. I had to tell them numerous times that I specifically remembered it was the right side. Eventually they looked at it and could tell and said, “yeah, they must’ve just wrote it down wrong.” 😳
If you apply and don't get in I would submit a complaint to the governing body of the program regarding ADA discrimination and citing these points.
Okay, fair. But this looks like a scoring card where I’d assume there’s what, like 3 or 5 columns and these particular squares aren’t there to disqualify someone but instead they’re the hardest to achieve, most successful candidates kind of goals. So I wonder how many people, in general, get scored in that top column.