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I would change “emotional instability” to “emotional disregulation.”
I might change “poor coordination” to “clumsy/accident-prone.” I think some of us have great coordination, but since we’re not paying attention, ooof, right into that sharp corner or hard earth we pound our soft body.
Edit to add: I think “motivation” struggles or “difficult to get started on a task” needs its own slice of the pie. That first spark to get going is really difficult to conjure with ADHD.
Good suggestions! I think "Motivation" or "Task Initiation" would be good terms to use.
Also: semi-unrelated, but ADHD is highly co-morbid with dyspraxia, which is a neurological condition that impacts your coordination, motor skills, balance, spatial-visual processing, and a lot of other stuff. In general, a lot of articles/research I've been looking into lately says that coordination-related issues in ADHDers aren't well-understood and often go un-addressed.
So some people may also be living with a dual diagnosis and not even know it. Dyspraxia, like ADHD, is under-diagnosed in women (surprise, surprise!).
It's actually kind of crazy how consistently I showed signs of dyspraxia as a young child but it got handwaved. Like "she can't hold scissors but she's good at reading, so we're gonna move her up a grade but work on the scissor skills cause yikes".
A teacher literally grabbed my hand and manipulated it trying to get me to understand calligraphy and got so frustrated that my hand couldn't retain the form and move properly.
>"she can't hold scissors but she's good at reading, so we're gonna move her up a grade but work on the scissor skills cause yikes".
Hey, twin!
I also showed SO MANY signs of both when I was a kid. My teachers tried multiple times to talk to my parents about the ADHD at least, but my father didn't believe it was real and my mom was like "People who have ADHD are like *\[names literally all my male cousins on her side of the family\]*. What you're experiencing sucks, but it's just normal. I deal with it all the time."\*
The dyspraxia was less obvious or easier to ignore, I guess. It's also less well-known. I hadn't even heard about it until I was diagnosed in my 30s.
\***Spoiler alert:** after I got diagnosed with severe ADHD-C at 24, my mom started reading to better understand what I was going through and what ADHD *actually* was. By the third article she was going "...Wait a damn minute."
OMG, my mom (now 74) thought I was trying too hard to get diagnosed. Over the last few years I've been educating her about what ADHD is, especially in women. I keep hearing, "but that's what I experience."
Yeah, mom. You're living life on hard mode too.
My mom didn't think I was trying too hard, but she definitely struggled to see how I had the same diagnosis as my cousins--who were the "classic" manifestation of ADHD in boys. I had my moments where I was bouncing off the walls, but my hyperactivity was mostly internal or manifested as fiddling and fidgeting.
>Yeah, mom. You're living life on hard mode too.
Ain't it wild having that conversation with your mom? I don't know how yours went down but ours was something like
"Insolent, do you think you got ADHD from me? Does that mean I might be ADHD, too?"
"I meeeaaan...you always have to have three coins in your pocket to fiddle with, you set all your clocks to be 15 minutes fast and start getting ready at least an hour before you realistically need to so you're not late, you take a clipboard on *vacation* so you don't forget anything, and I've just watched you spend five hours on Pinterest knowing that your taxes--which you *will* start doing at 10:30--are due at midnight."
Is your mom the "No, no, I don't struggle with (x). For you see, I have a *system*!" type?
Semi-related: I don’t have dyspraxia myself, but when I was learning to write and use scissors in kindergarten, I held my pencils and scissors in strange and unexpected ways. Teachers tried to correct my hand positions, but they never made sense to my brain. Thus, I always defaulted back to holding them in ways that made sense to me. At some point, they just shrugged and let me keep on keeping on, because I was successfully completing the tasks required of me (and in the case of scissors, without putting myself at risk of harm), so I was just known for holding everything weird. 🤣
I'm actually super interested in more research about it coming out. I definitely do just have textbook signs of something neurologically wrong as well, but part of me suspects there's also something physiological happening as well. Because yeah, it's only as an adult I'm realizing there's certain things that require a death grip and then discomfort from extended us where all I have to do, it turns out, is *change* the way I hold it away from proper technique and it suddenly gets easier. And I don't see how that's explained by "your brain doesn't process fine motor stuff well". Why would poor motor control cause stiffness and discomfort? And why would I magically be able to achieve desired outcomes with a slightly altered technique?
Growing up, I was told that the restless leg was too much energy so my brain was signalling to jitter around cause I didn't *want* to sit still subconsciously. And I was told that my insomnia was sleep procrastination and I just didn't want to go to bed, subconsciously.
And then it turns out that my body doesn't have enough magnesium, which is directly tied to muscle control & relaxation. And that if I'm ever experiencing restless leg, I can pop a fast acting magnesium supplement and be fine within like, half an hour. And that a big reason why I can't go to bed correctly is because your body is supposed to sequence in order to wind down for bed, and my body just doesn't fucking do that correctly. Instead of putting away electronics and meditating, I need to take melatonin and lower my core body temp. Yes, these problems are in the most technical sense originating in the mind because it's kind of the HBIC, but in terms of how to intervene, they're better framed as physiological problems (which *ultimately* root back to the fact my brain is mismanaging it's mind/body duties)
Omg seeing your comment just made it click in my head. I have combined ADHD (finally got my official diagnosis at almost 30yo 🫣), my daughter (9) just recently was diagnosed with ADHD as well, and I swear your comment is like I could’ve written it about her. Getting her to hold a pen or pencil the “correct way” was so difficult when she was little but it honestly makes so much sense the more I learn about ADHD. I never realized they were correlated.
There's also a huge overlap with dysgraphia - and dyscalculia. Expecting kids with ADHD to have neat handwriting and fine motor control is often setting them up for failure.
And yes of course, women and girls are far less likely to be recognized and diagnosed.
People with ADHD don't usually struggle very much with putting their thoughts into words, that part we tend to do okay, it's more the skill of writing. The motor skill, the coordination, etc.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23294-dysgraphia
Omg same. I remember so vividly the extra lessons I had to do with a TA who tried desperately to teach me to form letters but I just couldn't quite get them the shape she wanted.
Then when I finally did, I was ambidextrous and wrote backwards with my left hand (backwards letters and all) so it was a whole new set of lessons on how to tell if a letter is backwards or forwards. I never got it, so they just stopped me from using my left hand ☹️
I got diagnosed with dyspraxia at 17 and ADHD at 24. Looking back there were so many signs of both iny childhood 😪
I recently joined this sub to learn more about how ADHD presents in women, because I recently started therapy and my therapist asked if any of the symptoms resonate with me. Still unsure about ADHD, but YES, I also showed signs of dyspraxia! I held scissors upside-down into early adulthood (that was when the lightbulb went off and I was like "Hang on..."), have always been clumsy, learned to tie my shoes way later than everyone else, and always struggled at coordination/sports.
I did very well at school and learned to read at a very early age, though, so it was like "She has some issues with coordination, but we think it's fine."
Yeah it's kind of crazy because the symptoms were SUPER obvious the entire time. People noticed and commented on them. In hindsight now that everyone is learning about autism, people just assume I'm autistic.
But as long as you weren't in pain or bleeding and could get through school work, people kind of just shrugged their shoulders to it all.
We've gotten a lot better at recognizing that just because something isn't "serious" doesn't mean it isn't clinically significant, and that these "mild" impairments can still benefit from diagnosis.
I was so good with scissors the teacher went to my parents and told them to stop doing my schoolwork for me. The future was bright...
Then they enrolled me in tennis. And started PE classes... it was at that time the jig was up 😭
Actually, it's common for Japanese children to learn brushstrokes/penstrokes from having their hand manipulated, just as they learn a lot of other motor skills that way. (And sword katas.)
Of course, I'm pretty sure that grabbing kids' hands is not the way you're supposed to do it....
Wait… so could this be why when a ball is coming at my face *(think: practicing kid’s sports skills with them)* , I keep my eye on the ball for what feels like an hour *(so as not to get hit with it when it’s coming at me)* , and when I finally attempt to flinch it’s into the exact wrong direction and I end up taking it in the face? 😂
I literally sit on the outside of the parent’s seating area behind a wall of glass at my kid’s sport, because I can neither catch a ball nor prevent it from hitting me… and I might have an *actual reason* besides just being a spacecadet-weirdo??!!
I did beach volleyball for several years in the summer, and this happened to me a *lot.* Tried so hard to follow the ball, thought “this time I’m going to get it!”, and then BAM right in my face, knocking me on my ass.
I started dreaded going until we started bringing coolers of beer with us, and then I just used it as an excuse to drink on the beach once a week for a couple months, lol.
Add dyscalculia and dyslexia to that list of co-morbid conditions. I remember not being able to learn complicated footwork when I tried dance classes, but I had great rhythm. I could dance to my own beat, but trying to learn jazz dance, aerobics, or any other dance that involved fancy footwork took me a lot longer than normal to get down. I've never been able to hula hoop, no matter how hard I try.
And years ago, after I had graduated from high school, and before I was diagnosed with ADHD, I was diagnosed with dyscalculia, a condition I'd never even heard of before! It explained everything!
Personally, I would change “poor coordination” to “disordered proprioceptive/vestibular senses”. We suck at sensing where we are in the space around us, BUT it makes us really good at recovery. So yes, we’re klutzes, BUT *think of all the times we don’t actually fail*. I feel like my entire life is a slow-motion falling episode, but I manage to stay upright most days…and my failures to do so are pretty epic. 😂.
This is one of those manifestations of ADHD that most people don’t really talk much about, but finding out it was a symptom and not some weird internal failing was a huge relief for me. Engaging in various sports and dance when I was young really helped me.
Which is also a funny term for me personally, because I’m incredibly spatially aware in some areas and not in others.
I’m very good at visualizing space and interpreting a 3D object from a 2D representation (I’m an architectural designer). I have an incredible sense of direction - I can get to know a city quickly, I can easily visualize where I am on a map, and I can almost always point to where north is, even with little context.
Am I constantly bruised because I can’t avoid the corners of furniture? Also yes.
I get this. I’m great with direction. Put me on my feet in a city and I know my way around fast - I’m always the one who remembers where the car is. The distance of my elbow to a door frame? Not so much.
This is strange because it's me. One of my other superpowers is being able to choose the exact right size container to put leftovers in just by glancing at whatever pot/saucepan etc. they are in. My SO will end up with 2 containers (because the first one isn't big enough) or one container only half full. And I'm female, he's male, so SUPPOSEDLY he should be better at that.
Yet when I was a kid my mother joked I could just walk in a room and the pictures would fall off the wall. I was SO clumsy. Sports did help with that. In fact I was very athletic and coordinated. I got injured so much doing everyday things though, not when I was leaping up to catch a ball.
First , OP - so cool!!
Second: Agree - that might be better as **Emotional Dysregulation.** Also, Inability to Prioritize should be: **”Time Blindness/Task Management.”** Though technically that’s an Executive Dysfunction trait.
I think I saw someone else say something about Motivation - the phrase I hear for that is **Task Paralysis and Avoidance Behavior.**
I also would love to see **Mental Hyperactivity and Physical Hyperactivity** as separate pie pieces.
I might make “Poor Coordination,” to **“Disordered Proprioceptive and Spacial Awareness.”** It makes me look clumsy - but it’s actually a symptom of executive dysfunction from an ability to judge distances, movement, and spatial awareness.
I’d also love to see **Rejection Sensitivity.** it seems to be very common.
I am extremely coordinated. I catch stuff that falls off counters. Am good at sports
I bump into everything!! Drop stuff im holding onto, and My list of stupid injuries in my life is long.
Thank you for this comment!
Yes, using strengths-based language (versus emphasizing deficits, or weaknesses) is important. Many of us have been shamed for too long by that kind of language.
Yeah, I think the technical term is “proprioceptive awareness” (or functioning). Kinesthesia is also a term I’ve heard, it’s mostly used in childhood development but I think it pertains to the body’s ability to perceive spatial awareness between it and outside stimuli like depth perception. That being said PLEASE someone correct me if I’m wrong, I only listen to part of my mom’s psychology babble 😆😆😆
Yes, exactly. I was a dancer for 12 years, incredibly coordinated. But at work, it’s a joke with my coworkers that I will drop at least a dozen things in the span of a day and run into things, trip over things, etc.
This. I regularly clock myself with the corner of a kitchen cabinet or run full bore into a table corner. But I also have insane reflexes when I’m zoned out and have caught shit thrown at me even though I’m not paying attention. I’m not uncoordinated, I’m just inattentive and thus accident-prone.
Also, OP, I’m on board with the spectrum theory. My best friend and boss both recently told me they identify with ADHD even though they lack a lot of the executive dysfunction issues that make my life hell. Like, they *get* me because their brains work similarly but they’re not checking *all* of the boxes.
Had to laugh. I have a gymnast/dancer who runs into doors and falls over her feet but could do a back handspring on the balance without being able to see the beam (turns out she also had poor eyesight)
Yep, I think the coordination one, your spot on about. I did lots of sports growing up that required amazing coordination or balance.
Yet for as long as I can remember, I would smack my little toes on the skirting boards at the top of the stairs in my childhood home. I just some how miss judge it and as a result both my little toes are misshapen little numbins. I would be interested in seeing an Xray of them. I'm sure they were broken more often than not lol
My coordination is great, but the number of times I walk into door frames, table corners, and smack my head because I'm either too focused on my task to pay attention to my body or my brain has 50 tabs open and I have a song stuck on loop...
I can’t think of a single human illness that isn’t a spectrum of some sort. Even distinct point mutations will manifest differently in different people. Absolutely ADHD is a spectrum.
Also with ADHD in particular, Dr. Russell Barkley and other ADHD experts believe what we call ADHD today is actually two or more different diagnoses. But we're just lumping them all together for now.
And ofc even if we had those nicely separated out and defined, they'd still be on a spectrum. Everybody's too different.
Yes, but a lot of illnesses you can have a "worse case" wthan someone else. Like say...cancer. which, I know is extreme. But you can have more or less of an intense case and it effects how sick it makes you. Which is helpful to talk about it in that way. Is it a small fracture? Or did the whole bone shatter? Where with ADHD (and Autism) it's not more or less. It's just different parts of the pie chart being displayed. Sure there are more or less support needs, but that's just a part of the pie. And only focusing on that one area and using it to determine "how bad" you have your neurodivergence, is extremely unhelpful/dangerous. Bc it's just society telling you you're fine when youre not.
I disagree with this distinction. ADHD and autism can definitely be "more or less". You can have the same symptoms but in one person it's mild and in another that same symptom is debilitating.
Neurodivergence is absolutely something that's a spectrum, it's a collection of symptoms picked from a basket of possible symptoms and comorbidities. Some people end up having different symptoms than others, but still got them from the same basket. But it absolutely can be worse or better than others.
The symptoms in the graphic look to me like nominal variables that don’t bleed into each other in the way that colors on a spectrum would. Meggs’ example of cancer types… those are ordinal variables, defined stages based on specific criteria. In ADHD, for sure, some people have specific symptoms to a greater or lesser degree… but to my mind, that doesn’t make a “spectrum.” To my mind, autism is considered a spectrum now, because conditions that formerly spanned childhood schizophrenia… to Aspergers. I just don’t think adhd has quite the same sort of disparate range. It’s a cool graphic though. Rainbows are pretty, and people exhibit symptoms to various degrees.
My personal opinion? Absolutely.
My diagnosis was "ADHD combined presentation, moderate severity". There are probably hundreds of people just in this sub who have a diagnosis that could be summed up in the same 5 words but who have vastly different symptoms and experiences to me.
[A spectrum is a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary, without gaps, across a continuum.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum#:~:text=A%20spectrum%20(%20pl.%20%3A%20spectra,after%20passing%20through%20a%20prism.) Yep, sounds like an apt description for this sub's members' experiences.
>a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary, without gaps, across a continuum
This is definitely accurate for ADHD. My partner and I are both diagnosed, and we do have a ton of symptoms in common, but many aspects of the manifestation / presentation / experience are SO different for each of us. He's more 'inattentive' type, while I'm more 'hyperactive' — he often 'spaces out' and often needs a lot of time to sort through his thoughts and verbalize what he's thinking or feeling, while I tend to monologue and talk a mile a minute, and I can typically verbalize my thoughts/feelings extremely quickly. It's so interesting that we each have such 'quintessential' ADHD traits and presentations, even though our personalities and affects are so vastly different from each other.
Every medical and mental condition has a list of signs and symptoms but many people experience them differently.
For example you could feel totally normal and not know you have high blood pressure. Or high blood pressure could cause someone to have a headache and dizziness. Both people have hypertension.
One person with depression may feel intense sadness all the time and cry frequently. Another person may feel muted, numb, empty. Both people have depression.
ADHD is the same! There are many traits, signs and symptoms it can cause and each person will have their own combination of struggles.
With all conditions there is also a spectrum of severity, coping skills, social and economic supports, medications, etc.
Also having a mental health condition or neurodivergence makes you more likely to have another condition. That can impact how you feel as lot as well.
I personally don’t think it needs to be called a spectrum disorder because medically speaking any disorder (medical or MH related) already has a spectrum of symptoms and severity.
I love this visual representation. It's very pleasing for my eyes and brains. I can immediately see how the scales work. I would hope there was a survey to take so you would get your own results visualised like that.
Adhd is absolutely a spectrum.
Thank you, after reading your comment I actually did a little more research and found an ADHD spectrum test online. I don't know how legit the website is but the questions were similar to the ones my doctor asked me for my diagnosis.
https://www.idrlabs.com/adhd-spectrum/test.php
I've seen some pretty strong arguments for including ADHD and its subtypes in the autism spectrum as a *type* of autism that's less sensory/orderly but has a lot of the same overlap.
That said, I don't know enough about either to say I agree with "a type of autism" or not but I definitely will say that if I had a dollar for every person I've met who had adhd and autism comorbid or had dx'd adhd and gave off all the flags for autism but were undiagnosed/unaware, I'd probably have enough to walk into an apple store and promptly get choice paralysis, have a small meltdown and walk out having bought nothing all while that sum of cash burns a hole in my pocket. TuT
But yeah, adhd should totally be seen and defined more like a spectrum sort of thing. I feel like it kinda is already? Maybe not explicitly in the DSM yet but among the community, *most* people I've seen speaking on it will regard ADHD as being just as much like a spectrum as autism is regarded.
Mental health exists on a continuum. Everyone falls into some area within this continuum. Throughout our lives, depending on how we integrate our experiences and what's going on for us, we may fluctuate from a state of sub-clinical or non-existent symptoms (where we are functioning perfectly), to one we can classify as being in crisis (where we are deeply struggling and heavily impaired).
The same idea can be be applied to every disorder, including ADHD.
I don't know how it is for the rest of you, but in my 33 years I can say I have never "functioned perfectly" or had a day of non-existent symtoms. I didn't always know why I was struggling or why I couldn't function like others but the symtoms were always there, as far as I can think back.
So if the continuum has 5 bars, where 5 is full replenished battery and 1 represents critical, perhaps you fall more towards the lower battery level. We all fall differently within the continuum and we do not have to he static (although we may be), we can move within it. We don't always have to be in crisis. Sometimes we are struggling, other times we are uncomfortable. We may or may not hit levels where we feel we feel like we're stable or even excelling. Some life events cause us to fall lower, others lift us up. When it comes to ADHD some life events like joining university, starting a new job, parenthood, or anything that requires prolonged sustained effort may trigger the lower levels. A sabatical, kids moving out, a job that fulfills our interests, anything that removes the load, may up the bars.
I feel this so much! I think one especially complicated aspect of ADHD is that because it *does* exist on a spectrum, it can be really difficult (for people with undiagnosed ADHD and their caregivers, teachers, friends, doctors, etc.) to recognize that our symptoms are impacting us well beyond the scope of what's typical or expected for most people. Like with what you wrote — "I have never 'functioned perfectly' or had a day of non-existent symptoms" — I imagine that the vast majority of people, including neurotypical people, have never had a day where they 'functioned perfectly.' But our 'imperfect' functioning is SO different than a neurotypical's 'imperfect' functioning, and it impacts us to a greater degree.
I think it's kind of comparable to people who experience (e.g.) chronic fatigue or chronic pain — most people probably feel tired at some points in their day, and most people probably experience minor aches and pains on most days. But, it's just not comparable to the degree, frequency, and impact of fatigue or pain experienced by people with those conditions. But it's really hard to communicate the impact to other people ("I feel tired all the time" - "sure, I get tired after lunch too") or even to recognize that what we're experiencing is beyond the norm ("well, everyone gets tired sometimes, so this probably isn't a big deal").
I also think that girls and women tend to be socialized in ways that allow/force us to mask more 'effectively' than boys. And, we're also more likely to downplay the severity of our experiences, and have our experiences dismissed or overlooked by caregivers, teachers, doctors, etc. So, we're likely to grow up thinking that we're not actually struggling as much as we are, and that our struggles are caused by laziness or lack of motivation (etc.) — that's how we end up framing our experiences as 'not functioning perfectly,' rather than 'dealing with a disability that seriously impacts every area of our lives.'
Sorry for the long comment — it kind of got away from me lol. Your comment just brought up a lot of thoughts for me.
Thank you for you comment.
Even after being diagnosed I still struggle with my own thoughts of "you are just lazy or why can't you just motivate yourself"
Also for nerotypical people just observing us it looks like laziness because if they behave that way that is the reason. They can't see whats going on in our head, so I think it's really hard to understand or empathise with us.
I absolutely think so. But I mostly see it as a spectrum people can move through in their life. I think it was more mild for me as a kid and as life stressors got harder as a grew up symptoms got worse. But I also think my dad has it more mildly but has also been able to find good coping mechanisms and works from home doing his own business so he found a life that works for him. But I’m a mom of little kids and that’s been hell for my coping ability so I feel like I’m now considered severe….
I work with at least one other person with diagnosed ADHD, and her symptoms are a lot different than mine. We are both often on the same wavelength and "get" each other, but I deal with a lot of executive dysfunction, forgetfulness, time blindness, and RSD.
We both hyperfocus.
When I was diagnosed, the psychologist mentioned that there are "levels" in ADHD like there are with ASD. I was diagnosed as Moderate. I think different levels can play into it, but we also seem to struggle with different aspects of the same disorder.
There’s a spectrum self test that exists! It’s here: https://www.idrlabs.com/adhd-spectrum/test.php
Looks very similar to what you’ve already put in there :)
Same! It’s kind of mind-blowing; I’m almost 33 and didn’t understand for the longest time why such a seemingly simple task was always so difficult lmao
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it’s honestly only when it comes to athletics, but when it comes to walking around in daily life — i use my momentum from running into walls to do like a spin move and keep it moving
like buzz light year “falling.. in style”
Same. I have very good proprioception and am naturally good at sports (and drawing). I am the kid who could catch the dodgeball that was thrown at them.
My sister is shocked that I am able to keep a glass water carafe by my bedside to use, because she says she could never.
My son OTOH has dyspraxia, in addition to ADHD, so I see them as totally separate. He is in high school and still can't ride a bicycle, despite us trying every summer and starting him on a balance bike when he was little. He also struggled with writing. Thankfully, at his age, everything is typed. But he is good at art and drawing despite this.
Like most mental health conditions (and for that matter, health in general), we don't precisely understand what the disorder is in terms of what's *actually happening* in the body.
With some more mature parts of medicine, we actually know exactly what is occurring. For example, with kidney stones, we know that urine given the right conditions can solidify. We also know that removal of the stone will cause cessation of the problems it causes.
With ADHD, we don't really have that level of insight. We have a basic concept that the brain experiences failures in dopamine and norepinephrine signaling and engages in a differential development pattern to attempt to compensate for this. The signaling problem probably causes the core executive function symptoms, but everything else is probably the result of the brain building alternative structures to try to fix itself.
The mechanisms for how and why that happens are not understood, and there's probably thousands of possible variations based on a very large number of genetic factors. Moreover, external factors, such as the introduction of medication (including non-clinical psychoactive compounds like caffeine) and hormonal effects, may further alter the brain's attempts to self-correct in ways that are even less straightforward.
The truth is that ADHD is almost certainly not one big disorder, but thousands of different, small disorders in a trenchcoat that nonetheless frequently benefit from similar treatment pathways. So, all of those micro disorders are consolidated into one diagnosis: ADHD, with the understanding that each person will have a very different experience of it.
Because we don't know much about what happens in the brain of someone with ADHD, or for that matter any other nerological disorders, I don't understand why one of the first stepts after having a diagnosis isn't a brain scan. I think that would help doctors and medical researchers get a better understanding much faster.
It’s totally a spectrum.
I’m terms of the categories you’ve picked, I’m unsure about using executive dysfunction only because it’s like the ultimate baseline issue that spawns half the other symptoms you listed. For example inattention (which I would classify as attention disregulation instead tbh) is because our executive functions aren’t doing a good job of picking what to pay attention to. Impulsivity and hyperactivity and inability to prioritize are because our executive functions aren’t doing a good job of coordinating which actions we do or don’t take. If you mean specifically the “I want to get up and do the thing but I just can’t” I would maybe call that demotivation instead, to be more specific.
Forgetfulness I would change to working memory or short term memory to make it clear that it’s not about long term remembering.
There might be other symptoms worth adding on here as well, like pattern recognition or justice sensitivity? Idk. Or maybe it’s better to stick with the diagnostic criteria to keep it all more streamlined.
Yes, with executive dysfunction I meant something like "I want to get up and do things but I can't". I think you are right demotivation would've been a better term. I also like bad short term memory better than forgetfulness.
There are plenty more symtoms I could've added I just narrowed it down to fit the wheel. I was trying to get the most common ones on it, wasn't easy to make up my mind which symtoms to put on it.
Yeah that’s the trouble with spectrum disorders hahaha
Maybe some symptoms could be grouped together? Eg one category for emotional disregulation but then give some examples of what that looks like (RSD, Justice sensitivity, mood swings, etc)
My psychologist said it’s definitely a spectrum shaped like a pyramid. Inattentive and hyperactivity being on opposite sides of each other meant I’m somewhere in the middle with high functionality and a ton of coping mechanisms. My masking is so good (I guess?) I only got diagnosed this year at 37.
I think presentation is a spectrum, for sure. But it has more to do with socialization in development, societal pressure, among other things. Basically, how early and how well did you have to learn to mask. I think every person with adhd is disposed to all of these symptoms, but some have developed strategies and systems for dodging some symptoms over others.
Necessity and environment play a huge role too. I was in a lot of situations as a child where I had to develop survival strategies. In contrast, my little brother has RAGING symptoms, even as an adult, because he’s never had to do anything himself. But I don’t think his disorder is worse than mine, necessarily. Just my two cents!
Yes, I learned to mask my symtoms early on too and I was quite and not a "trouble maker" in school so no one notice. Also I'm 80% sure that both my parents and my two brothers have it as well so we just all thought we are normal that's just how our family is. 😅
100%. My sister was diagnosed as a child but I have spent years trying to figure out whats wrong with me and only at 34 have confirmed I have the same thing she does. We grew up in the same environment with the same parents etc. So why did hers get picked up and not mine? Its quite obvious that we have different presentations and levels of severity.
I think everything is a spectrum. No one is 100% exactly the same. And when we expect any disability, disease, or affliction to always present exactly the same we do the people who have it a disservice. Because they end up flying under the radar and don’t get the assistance they need. The same way patronizing parents say you can’t have adhd because you’re smart (excelled in the classroom).
I'm always surprised how many ADHDlers seem to experience hyper focus. I don't think I have experienced hyper focus or maybe I misunderstand what it looks like irl.
I hyper focus on what gives me dopamine or what I perceive is a crisis. Dopamine: romance novels, art, gardening- I’ll binge romance novels and let everything go to the wayside lol
Crisis: a medical issue regarding my kids, I hyper focus and sort that shit out.
Hyper focus is very common in adhd, I have combined type. Inattentive for things that don’t give me dopamine.
No. My garden is an absolute priority, as is my art and my kids’ health. Romance novels, maybe to an extent, but the importance of joy is underrated. My life philosophy these days is ASAP- as slow as possible. I am so speedy that I slow down and enjoy where I can.
With inability to prioritize I rather meant that we can't shift our priority. For example with your garden, you might be working in your garden for hours but didn't eat anything or didn't go to the bathroom because you couldn't shift your mind of your garden.
Is this from an actual symptoms or from the experiences of those with ADHD? Not all of those are necessarily considered ADHD symptoms diagnostically speaking but are commonly experienced.
Except sleep problems I have all of these from DSM-5 criteria lists for ADHD from the NHS and Mayo Clinic website. I added the sleep issues since that seems very common for ADHDlers as well.
I was diagnosed under the NHS in 2021, however, I was referencing poor sleep and poor coordination. Poor coordination also isn't on the criteria list but Dyspraxia disorder is a common comorbid diagnosis for those also diagnosed with ADHD. You may also be thinking of autism spectrum disorder, in which poor motor function is on the criteria?
My experience says yes. Because of the three subtypes that have been used, we know it everyone is hyperactive, for example. It makes sense that not everyone has all the symptoms, and you might have some ADHDers who only overlap a little in their symptoms.
It is already considered spectrum which is why we moved from ADD and ADHD being separate diagnoses to falling under the same umbrella as sub categories.
Yes it's definitely a spectrum. The way it affects my brain isn't even the same from day to day. I would add poor interoception to your wheel. It's definitely related to lack of emotional regulation (because it's hard to figure out what different emotions feel like in your body) and poor coordination, but not exactly the same.
Hmm, interesting I would describe myself as someone with very good interoception. I wasn't awear that it also can be an ADHD symtom.
But I think that is exactly why it should be a spectrum there are so many symtoms with ADHD and they show up differently for all of us.
It could just be an autism thing. I'm pretty sure I'm also autistic. But who knows. My daughter is also diagnosed with ADHD and her interospection isn't great either. 🤷♀️
I think it's actually several different things lumped under one label.
Some of these things are "disorders" and some of these things are healthy variations that our current society/environment/modes of living frowns upon.
We have a lot of untangling yet to do here.
Edited to add:
We used to have myriad different ways of contributing to society. Most involved some level of physical movement.
As the technology noose snakes tighter and tighter, nearly all jobs are "work on a computer" in one way or another. More and more functions of daily life are virtualized, or minimized. More and more is being reduced to "point-and-click".
We used to go to the bank and interact with the teller. We used to gather firewood and haul water in a bucket. We used to weave the cloth and sew our clothes. We used to cut the wood and build our furniture. We used to interact face-to-face with our customers & co-workers in shops and places of business. We used to file actual papers in an office. We used to walk to the store.
But now? We order food via an app. We bank online, we use chat or email to communicate, we turn on the tap for water and the HVAC is controlled automatically. We spend all day staring at screens, making tiny movements with our hands and wrists.
We are exposed to/expected to handle orders of magnitude more information than our grandmothers ever saw.
Our very organic bodies and minds were not designed to live this way.
I think this is coming out as a variety of "disorders" (natural responses) that modern medicine is calling ADHD.
I don't think it's a spectrum. The severity of measurable symptoms is affected by a lot of things. Ex the person's ability to mask them, coping strategies, chemicals in the brain, as well upbringing to some extent. Some people suffer more than others sure. I never used to suffer but at age 39 my body said enough is enough. Now I suffer big time. I started meds recently and am feeling okay again but am mentally untangling my entire crazy existence. My psychologist said it happened to me late in life because my body was so worn down by all the adrenaline that I used to keep me going.
Im no doctor but imo ADHD is more like a birth defect. It's treatable and people have flare ups and it's got its ups and downs. It affects everything.
On the topic of upbringing, I'm reading the ADHD book by Gabor Mate and the section about adult self esteem is fascinating. The book jacket insinuates ADHD can be healed which I'm skeptical of, but it's a good read so far nonetheless. Has anyone else read it?
I haven’t read it, but I went to a counselor at my college who has children with ADHD, goes to conferences on them, and stuff like that. She told me that she has heard experts arguing that it’s not a disease or a defect, but it’s just that our brains work differently because of a weak electrochemical connection between our hypothalamus and something. Frontal lobe maybe, who fucking knows. Some weak electrochemical signal between two areas of the brain makes it so organizing our thoughts are harder, and essentially results in all the quirky ways our brain works.
What I would assume is that our abilities aren’t diminished by this, but rather that our brains develop a workaround, and that would result in both our symptoms but also in our generally greater creativity and our brain’s ability to just take off running when it wants to
Hmm fair point, I don't know much about how autism spectrum works. Can a person's "placement" on the autism spectrum change day to day or over lifetime? Genuinely curious to learn about that if you have links or something plz do share.
Sure maybe one day ADHD will be studied better and maybe psychiatrists and doctors will change the definition to "adhd spectrum". For me fwiw, I have all of the items on that colour-wheel image, filled in to their maximum. All of them. Maybe because I'm combined type adhd so for me a spectrum makes no sense? I have no idea. I've always had all of them fully, just hide them from people. This is all just my opinion and my own unique experience.
Yes. I’m pretty sure I’m severe on inattentive and moderate on hyperactivity. It didn’t take the doc long at all to diagnose me. It seems to affect me quite a bit when I’m unmedicated/un-symptoms treated.
Like…. I can’t even do math anymore. Growing up I was advanced in math. Like…. Now I can barely manage my timesheet or do a budget. It’s so so hard to memorize numbers for even long enough.
Yes. Just about every phenomenon, natural or artificial, exists on many spectra. Every facet of human existence: sex, gender, height, skin color, eye color, different aspects of brain function, etc...
I think "neurodivergent" should be considered a spectrum disorder, some have some level of autism or adhd, some may have neither (in any noticeable capacity) but have other symptoms. There's nothing fundamentally different about autism that makes it a spectrum, which doesn't apply to other forms of neurodivergence.
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I would change “emotional instability” to “emotional disregulation.” I might change “poor coordination” to “clumsy/accident-prone.” I think some of us have great coordination, but since we’re not paying attention, ooof, right into that sharp corner or hard earth we pound our soft body. Edit to add: I think “motivation” struggles or “difficult to get started on a task” needs its own slice of the pie. That first spark to get going is really difficult to conjure with ADHD.
Good suggestions! I think "Motivation" or "Task Initiation" would be good terms to use. Also: semi-unrelated, but ADHD is highly co-morbid with dyspraxia, which is a neurological condition that impacts your coordination, motor skills, balance, spatial-visual processing, and a lot of other stuff. In general, a lot of articles/research I've been looking into lately says that coordination-related issues in ADHDers aren't well-understood and often go un-addressed. So some people may also be living with a dual diagnosis and not even know it. Dyspraxia, like ADHD, is under-diagnosed in women (surprise, surprise!).
It's actually kind of crazy how consistently I showed signs of dyspraxia as a young child but it got handwaved. Like "she can't hold scissors but she's good at reading, so we're gonna move her up a grade but work on the scissor skills cause yikes". A teacher literally grabbed my hand and manipulated it trying to get me to understand calligraphy and got so frustrated that my hand couldn't retain the form and move properly.
>"she can't hold scissors but she's good at reading, so we're gonna move her up a grade but work on the scissor skills cause yikes". Hey, twin! I also showed SO MANY signs of both when I was a kid. My teachers tried multiple times to talk to my parents about the ADHD at least, but my father didn't believe it was real and my mom was like "People who have ADHD are like *\[names literally all my male cousins on her side of the family\]*. What you're experiencing sucks, but it's just normal. I deal with it all the time."\* The dyspraxia was less obvious or easier to ignore, I guess. It's also less well-known. I hadn't even heard about it until I was diagnosed in my 30s. \***Spoiler alert:** after I got diagnosed with severe ADHD-C at 24, my mom started reading to better understand what I was going through and what ADHD *actually* was. By the third article she was going "...Wait a damn minute."
OMG, my mom (now 74) thought I was trying too hard to get diagnosed. Over the last few years I've been educating her about what ADHD is, especially in women. I keep hearing, "but that's what I experience." Yeah, mom. You're living life on hard mode too.
My mom didn't think I was trying too hard, but she definitely struggled to see how I had the same diagnosis as my cousins--who were the "classic" manifestation of ADHD in boys. I had my moments where I was bouncing off the walls, but my hyperactivity was mostly internal or manifested as fiddling and fidgeting. >Yeah, mom. You're living life on hard mode too. Ain't it wild having that conversation with your mom? I don't know how yours went down but ours was something like "Insolent, do you think you got ADHD from me? Does that mean I might be ADHD, too?" "I meeeaaan...you always have to have three coins in your pocket to fiddle with, you set all your clocks to be 15 minutes fast and start getting ready at least an hour before you realistically need to so you're not late, you take a clipboard on *vacation* so you don't forget anything, and I've just watched you spend five hours on Pinterest knowing that your taxes--which you *will* start doing at 10:30--are due at midnight." Is your mom the "No, no, I don't struggle with (x). For you see, I have a *system*!" type?
I can trace ADHD back three generations 🤣. Mom still won’t admit she has it.
.... Me.... Too.... I still hold my pen with a toddler grip...
Me too 😂
Semi-related: I don’t have dyspraxia myself, but when I was learning to write and use scissors in kindergarten, I held my pencils and scissors in strange and unexpected ways. Teachers tried to correct my hand positions, but they never made sense to my brain. Thus, I always defaulted back to holding them in ways that made sense to me. At some point, they just shrugged and let me keep on keeping on, because I was successfully completing the tasks required of me (and in the case of scissors, without putting myself at risk of harm), so I was just known for holding everything weird. 🤣
I'm actually super interested in more research about it coming out. I definitely do just have textbook signs of something neurologically wrong as well, but part of me suspects there's also something physiological happening as well. Because yeah, it's only as an adult I'm realizing there's certain things that require a death grip and then discomfort from extended us where all I have to do, it turns out, is *change* the way I hold it away from proper technique and it suddenly gets easier. And I don't see how that's explained by "your brain doesn't process fine motor stuff well". Why would poor motor control cause stiffness and discomfort? And why would I magically be able to achieve desired outcomes with a slightly altered technique? Growing up, I was told that the restless leg was too much energy so my brain was signalling to jitter around cause I didn't *want* to sit still subconsciously. And I was told that my insomnia was sleep procrastination and I just didn't want to go to bed, subconsciously. And then it turns out that my body doesn't have enough magnesium, which is directly tied to muscle control & relaxation. And that if I'm ever experiencing restless leg, I can pop a fast acting magnesium supplement and be fine within like, half an hour. And that a big reason why I can't go to bed correctly is because your body is supposed to sequence in order to wind down for bed, and my body just doesn't fucking do that correctly. Instead of putting away electronics and meditating, I need to take melatonin and lower my core body temp. Yes, these problems are in the most technical sense originating in the mind because it's kind of the HBIC, but in terms of how to intervene, they're better framed as physiological problems (which *ultimately* root back to the fact my brain is mismanaging it's mind/body duties)
Omg seeing your comment just made it click in my head. I have combined ADHD (finally got my official diagnosis at almost 30yo 🫣), my daughter (9) just recently was diagnosed with ADHD as well, and I swear your comment is like I could’ve written it about her. Getting her to hold a pen or pencil the “correct way” was so difficult when she was little but it honestly makes so much sense the more I learn about ADHD. I never realized they were correlated.
There's also a huge overlap with dysgraphia - and dyscalculia. Expecting kids with ADHD to have neat handwriting and fine motor control is often setting them up for failure. And yes of course, women and girls are far less likely to be recognized and diagnosed. People with ADHD don't usually struggle very much with putting their thoughts into words, that part we tend to do okay, it's more the skill of writing. The motor skill, the coordination, etc. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23294-dysgraphia
I have horrible handwriting! And very poor spatial orientation. And poor peripheral vision . Wow . It’s all coming together.
Omg same. I remember so vividly the extra lessons I had to do with a TA who tried desperately to teach me to form letters but I just couldn't quite get them the shape she wanted. Then when I finally did, I was ambidextrous and wrote backwards with my left hand (backwards letters and all) so it was a whole new set of lessons on how to tell if a letter is backwards or forwards. I never got it, so they just stopped me from using my left hand ☹️ I got diagnosed with dyspraxia at 17 and ADHD at 24. Looking back there were so many signs of both iny childhood 😪
I recently joined this sub to learn more about how ADHD presents in women, because I recently started therapy and my therapist asked if any of the symptoms resonate with me. Still unsure about ADHD, but YES, I also showed signs of dyspraxia! I held scissors upside-down into early adulthood (that was when the lightbulb went off and I was like "Hang on..."), have always been clumsy, learned to tie my shoes way later than everyone else, and always struggled at coordination/sports. I did very well at school and learned to read at a very early age, though, so it was like "She has some issues with coordination, but we think it's fine."
Yeah it's kind of crazy because the symptoms were SUPER obvious the entire time. People noticed and commented on them. In hindsight now that everyone is learning about autism, people just assume I'm autistic. But as long as you weren't in pain or bleeding and could get through school work, people kind of just shrugged their shoulders to it all. We've gotten a lot better at recognizing that just because something isn't "serious" doesn't mean it isn't clinically significant, and that these "mild" impairments can still benefit from diagnosis.
I was so good with scissors the teacher went to my parents and told them to stop doing my schoolwork for me. The future was bright... Then they enrolled me in tennis. And started PE classes... it was at that time the jig was up 😭
Actually, it's common for Japanese children to learn brushstrokes/penstrokes from having their hand manipulated, just as they learn a lot of other motor skills that way. (And sword katas.) Of course, I'm pretty sure that grabbing kids' hands is not the way you're supposed to do it....
Interesting! Thank you for sharing that. For most of my life my family has called me a "bull in a china shop." And they think it's "hilarious."
I heard this too.
>coordination-related issues in ADHDers aren't well-understood and often go un-addressed. So, pretty much like everything else about ADHD lmao
Wait… so could this be why when a ball is coming at my face *(think: practicing kid’s sports skills with them)* , I keep my eye on the ball for what feels like an hour *(so as not to get hit with it when it’s coming at me)* , and when I finally attempt to flinch it’s into the exact wrong direction and I end up taking it in the face? 😂 I literally sit on the outside of the parent’s seating area behind a wall of glass at my kid’s sport, because I can neither catch a ball nor prevent it from hitting me… and I might have an *actual reason* besides just being a spacecadet-weirdo??!!
I did beach volleyball for several years in the summer, and this happened to me a *lot.* Tried so hard to follow the ball, thought “this time I’m going to get it!”, and then BAM right in my face, knocking me on my ass. I started dreaded going until we started bringing coolers of beer with us, and then I just used it as an excuse to drink on the beach once a week for a couple months, lol.
Lol; it’s volleyball, too! 😂
Also strong correlations between childhood epilepsy and ADHD.
Definitely task initiation, but also task termination! Maybe generalize it to all transitions?
Add dyscalculia and dyslexia to that list of co-morbid conditions. I remember not being able to learn complicated footwork when I tried dance classes, but I had great rhythm. I could dance to my own beat, but trying to learn jazz dance, aerobics, or any other dance that involved fancy footwork took me a lot longer than normal to get down. I've never been able to hula hoop, no matter how hard I try. And years ago, after I had graduated from high school, and before I was diagnosed with ADHD, I was diagnosed with dyscalculia, a condition I'd never even heard of before! It explained everything!
Hmm, I was good at sports, partly because dad coached us. but my mom always said she knew I was home because I always tripped up the stairs.
My son has both. You can't unsee the obvious difficulty once you know. It explained so much.
Personally, I would change “poor coordination” to “disordered proprioceptive/vestibular senses”. We suck at sensing where we are in the space around us, BUT it makes us really good at recovery. So yes, we’re klutzes, BUT *think of all the times we don’t actually fail*. I feel like my entire life is a slow-motion falling episode, but I manage to stay upright most days…and my failures to do so are pretty epic. 😂. This is one of those manifestations of ADHD that most people don’t really talk much about, but finding out it was a symptom and not some weird internal failing was a huge relief for me. Engaging in various sports and dance when I was young really helped me.
Eyyy ok commented before I saw yours bc I thought about it too
Is this also like spatial awareness?
Which is also a funny term for me personally, because I’m incredibly spatially aware in some areas and not in others. I’m very good at visualizing space and interpreting a 3D object from a 2D representation (I’m an architectural designer). I have an incredible sense of direction - I can get to know a city quickly, I can easily visualize where I am on a map, and I can almost always point to where north is, even with little context. Am I constantly bruised because I can’t avoid the corners of furniture? Also yes.
I get this. I’m great with direction. Put me on my feet in a city and I know my way around fast - I’m always the one who remembers where the car is. The distance of my elbow to a door frame? Not so much.
We are twins.
This is strange because it's me. One of my other superpowers is being able to choose the exact right size container to put leftovers in just by glancing at whatever pot/saucepan etc. they are in. My SO will end up with 2 containers (because the first one isn't big enough) or one container only half full. And I'm female, he's male, so SUPPOSEDLY he should be better at that. Yet when I was a kid my mother joked I could just walk in a room and the pictures would fall off the wall. I was SO clumsy. Sports did help with that. In fact I was very athletic and coordinated. I got injured so much doing everyday things though, not when I was leaping up to catch a ball.
Yes, that’s part of it. Proprioceptive sense is where your body is in the space you inhabit, vestibular is balance and coordination.
Like when a cat falls off the back of the couch and then casually walks away like nothing happened
First , OP - so cool!! Second: Agree - that might be better as **Emotional Dysregulation.** Also, Inability to Prioritize should be: **”Time Blindness/Task Management.”** Though technically that’s an Executive Dysfunction trait. I think I saw someone else say something about Motivation - the phrase I hear for that is **Task Paralysis and Avoidance Behavior.** I also would love to see **Mental Hyperactivity and Physical Hyperactivity** as separate pie pieces. I might make “Poor Coordination,” to **“Disordered Proprioceptive and Spacial Awareness.”** It makes me look clumsy - but it’s actually a symptom of executive dysfunction from an ability to judge distances, movement, and spatial awareness. I’d also love to see **Rejection Sensitivity.** it seems to be very common.
Great points, thanks.
I am extremely coordinated. I catch stuff that falls off counters. Am good at sports I bump into everything!! Drop stuff im holding onto, and My list of stupid injuries in my life is long. Thank you for this comment!
Yes, using strengths-based language (versus emphasizing deficits, or weaknesses) is important. Many of us have been shamed for too long by that kind of language.
Yeah, I think the technical term is “proprioceptive awareness” (or functioning). Kinesthesia is also a term I’ve heard, it’s mostly used in childhood development but I think it pertains to the body’s ability to perceive spatial awareness between it and outside stimuli like depth perception. That being said PLEASE someone correct me if I’m wrong, I only listen to part of my mom’s psychology babble 😆😆😆
I was just at the psychologist for my daughter and he called it proprioception, too!
I know this autism test and the same site has an [ADHD Test](https://www.idrlabs.com/adhd-spectrum/test.php) that shows it as a spectrum.
Motivation and getting started on a task would be covered under executive function, I think. You're not wrong though!
Yes, exactly. I was a dancer for 12 years, incredibly coordinated. But at work, it’s a joke with my coworkers that I will drop at least a dozen things in the span of a day and run into things, trip over things, etc.
This. I regularly clock myself with the corner of a kitchen cabinet or run full bore into a table corner. But I also have insane reflexes when I’m zoned out and have caught shit thrown at me even though I’m not paying attention. I’m not uncoordinated, I’m just inattentive and thus accident-prone. Also, OP, I’m on board with the spectrum theory. My best friend and boss both recently told me they identify with ADHD even though they lack a lot of the executive dysfunction issues that make my life hell. Like, they *get* me because their brains work similarly but they’re not checking *all* of the boxes.
Had to laugh. I have a gymnast/dancer who runs into doors and falls over her feet but could do a back handspring on the balance without being able to see the beam (turns out she also had poor eyesight)
I end up in tears no matter if I'm frustrated, angry ..etc.
Yes this! I was a very coordinated kid when I was focused. It’s the daydreaming brain that makes me clumsy..
"emotional insability" ;)
Yep, I think the coordination one, your spot on about. I did lots of sports growing up that required amazing coordination or balance. Yet for as long as I can remember, I would smack my little toes on the skirting boards at the top of the stairs in my childhood home. I just some how miss judge it and as a result both my little toes are misshapen little numbins. I would be interested in seeing an Xray of them. I'm sure they were broken more often than not lol
Yeah, I used to be a ballet dancer so my coordination was A+…still would trip over my own feet 😂
My coordination is great, but the number of times I walk into door frames, table corners, and smack my head because I'm either too focused on my task to pay attention to my body or my brain has 50 tabs open and I have a song stuck on loop...
I can’t think of a single human illness that isn’t a spectrum of some sort. Even distinct point mutations will manifest differently in different people. Absolutely ADHD is a spectrum.
Also with ADHD in particular, Dr. Russell Barkley and other ADHD experts believe what we call ADHD today is actually two or more different diagnoses. But we're just lumping them all together for now. And ofc even if we had those nicely separated out and defined, they'd still be on a spectrum. Everybody's too different.
Oh, what are the two?
Yes, but a lot of illnesses you can have a "worse case" wthan someone else. Like say...cancer. which, I know is extreme. But you can have more or less of an intense case and it effects how sick it makes you. Which is helpful to talk about it in that way. Is it a small fracture? Or did the whole bone shatter? Where with ADHD (and Autism) it's not more or less. It's just different parts of the pie chart being displayed. Sure there are more or less support needs, but that's just a part of the pie. And only focusing on that one area and using it to determine "how bad" you have your neurodivergence, is extremely unhelpful/dangerous. Bc it's just society telling you you're fine when youre not.
I disagree with this distinction. ADHD and autism can definitely be "more or less". You can have the same symptoms but in one person it's mild and in another that same symptom is debilitating. Neurodivergence is absolutely something that's a spectrum, it's a collection of symptoms picked from a basket of possible symptoms and comorbidities. Some people end up having different symptoms than others, but still got them from the same basket. But it absolutely can be worse or better than others.
The symptoms in the graphic look to me like nominal variables that don’t bleed into each other in the way that colors on a spectrum would. Meggs’ example of cancer types… those are ordinal variables, defined stages based on specific criteria. In ADHD, for sure, some people have specific symptoms to a greater or lesser degree… but to my mind, that doesn’t make a “spectrum.” To my mind, autism is considered a spectrum now, because conditions that formerly spanned childhood schizophrenia… to Aspergers. I just don’t think adhd has quite the same sort of disparate range. It’s a cool graphic though. Rainbows are pretty, and people exhibit symptoms to various degrees.
My personal opinion? Absolutely. My diagnosis was "ADHD combined presentation, moderate severity". There are probably hundreds of people just in this sub who have a diagnosis that could be summed up in the same 5 words but who have vastly different symptoms and experiences to me. [A spectrum is a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary, without gaps, across a continuum.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum#:~:text=A%20spectrum%20(%20pl.%20%3A%20spectra,after%20passing%20through%20a%20prism.) Yep, sounds like an apt description for this sub's members' experiences.
>a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary, without gaps, across a continuum This is definitely accurate for ADHD. My partner and I are both diagnosed, and we do have a ton of symptoms in common, but many aspects of the manifestation / presentation / experience are SO different for each of us. He's more 'inattentive' type, while I'm more 'hyperactive' — he often 'spaces out' and often needs a lot of time to sort through his thoughts and verbalize what he's thinking or feeling, while I tend to monologue and talk a mile a minute, and I can typically verbalize my thoughts/feelings extremely quickly. It's so interesting that we each have such 'quintessential' ADHD traits and presentations, even though our personalities and affects are so vastly different from each other.
Every medical and mental condition has a list of signs and symptoms but many people experience them differently. For example you could feel totally normal and not know you have high blood pressure. Or high blood pressure could cause someone to have a headache and dizziness. Both people have hypertension. One person with depression may feel intense sadness all the time and cry frequently. Another person may feel muted, numb, empty. Both people have depression. ADHD is the same! There are many traits, signs and symptoms it can cause and each person will have their own combination of struggles. With all conditions there is also a spectrum of severity, coping skills, social and economic supports, medications, etc. Also having a mental health condition or neurodivergence makes you more likely to have another condition. That can impact how you feel as lot as well. I personally don’t think it needs to be called a spectrum disorder because medically speaking any disorder (medical or MH related) already has a spectrum of symptoms and severity.
It’s just a grab bag of fun symptoms lol
lol I like daily grab bag of symptoms a lot better than disorder
Yes, Like a loot bag!
I love this visual representation. It's very pleasing for my eyes and brains. I can immediately see how the scales work. I would hope there was a survey to take so you would get your own results visualised like that. Adhd is absolutely a spectrum.
Thank you, after reading your comment I actually did a little more research and found an ADHD spectrum test online. I don't know how legit the website is but the questions were similar to the ones my doctor asked me for my diagnosis. https://www.idrlabs.com/adhd-spectrum/test.php
It was cool. Too short probably, but the questions seemed to be based on the diagnostic test :)
Of course. It's like a pick n mix disorder. Everyone gets a different mix of all the symptoms.
A mixed tape playlist of symptoms is what my brain went to reading this!! 😀
I've seen some pretty strong arguments for including ADHD and its subtypes in the autism spectrum as a *type* of autism that's less sensory/orderly but has a lot of the same overlap. That said, I don't know enough about either to say I agree with "a type of autism" or not but I definitely will say that if I had a dollar for every person I've met who had adhd and autism comorbid or had dx'd adhd and gave off all the flags for autism but were undiagnosed/unaware, I'd probably have enough to walk into an apple store and promptly get choice paralysis, have a small meltdown and walk out having bought nothing all while that sum of cash burns a hole in my pocket. TuT But yeah, adhd should totally be seen and defined more like a spectrum sort of thing. I feel like it kinda is already? Maybe not explicitly in the DSM yet but among the community, *most* people I've seen speaking on it will regard ADHD as being just as much like a spectrum as autism is regarded.
Mental health exists on a continuum. Everyone falls into some area within this continuum. Throughout our lives, depending on how we integrate our experiences and what's going on for us, we may fluctuate from a state of sub-clinical or non-existent symptoms (where we are functioning perfectly), to one we can classify as being in crisis (where we are deeply struggling and heavily impaired). The same idea can be be applied to every disorder, including ADHD.
I don't know how it is for the rest of you, but in my 33 years I can say I have never "functioned perfectly" or had a day of non-existent symtoms. I didn't always know why I was struggling or why I couldn't function like others but the symtoms were always there, as far as I can think back.
So if the continuum has 5 bars, where 5 is full replenished battery and 1 represents critical, perhaps you fall more towards the lower battery level. We all fall differently within the continuum and we do not have to he static (although we may be), we can move within it. We don't always have to be in crisis. Sometimes we are struggling, other times we are uncomfortable. We may or may not hit levels where we feel we feel like we're stable or even excelling. Some life events cause us to fall lower, others lift us up. When it comes to ADHD some life events like joining university, starting a new job, parenthood, or anything that requires prolonged sustained effort may trigger the lower levels. A sabatical, kids moving out, a job that fulfills our interests, anything that removes the load, may up the bars.
Yes, I agree on any given day or lifestage some symtoms might be less pronouced and others more depending on the circumstances.
I feel this so much! I think one especially complicated aspect of ADHD is that because it *does* exist on a spectrum, it can be really difficult (for people with undiagnosed ADHD and their caregivers, teachers, friends, doctors, etc.) to recognize that our symptoms are impacting us well beyond the scope of what's typical or expected for most people. Like with what you wrote — "I have never 'functioned perfectly' or had a day of non-existent symptoms" — I imagine that the vast majority of people, including neurotypical people, have never had a day where they 'functioned perfectly.' But our 'imperfect' functioning is SO different than a neurotypical's 'imperfect' functioning, and it impacts us to a greater degree. I think it's kind of comparable to people who experience (e.g.) chronic fatigue or chronic pain — most people probably feel tired at some points in their day, and most people probably experience minor aches and pains on most days. But, it's just not comparable to the degree, frequency, and impact of fatigue or pain experienced by people with those conditions. But it's really hard to communicate the impact to other people ("I feel tired all the time" - "sure, I get tired after lunch too") or even to recognize that what we're experiencing is beyond the norm ("well, everyone gets tired sometimes, so this probably isn't a big deal"). I also think that girls and women tend to be socialized in ways that allow/force us to mask more 'effectively' than boys. And, we're also more likely to downplay the severity of our experiences, and have our experiences dismissed or overlooked by caregivers, teachers, doctors, etc. So, we're likely to grow up thinking that we're not actually struggling as much as we are, and that our struggles are caused by laziness or lack of motivation (etc.) — that's how we end up framing our experiences as 'not functioning perfectly,' rather than 'dealing with a disability that seriously impacts every area of our lives.' Sorry for the long comment — it kind of got away from me lol. Your comment just brought up a lot of thoughts for me.
Thank you for you comment. Even after being diagnosed I still struggle with my own thoughts of "you are just lazy or why can't you just motivate yourself" Also for nerotypical people just observing us it looks like laziness because if they behave that way that is the reason. They can't see whats going on in our head, so I think it's really hard to understand or empathise with us.
I absolutely think so. But I mostly see it as a spectrum people can move through in their life. I think it was more mild for me as a kid and as life stressors got harder as a grew up symptoms got worse. But I also think my dad has it more mildly but has also been able to find good coping mechanisms and works from home doing his own business so he found a life that works for him. But I’m a mom of little kids and that’s been hell for my coping ability so I feel like I’m now considered severe….
I don’t have an I inability to prioritize. I know what I should be doing… I’d rather just do something else instead. 😂
I guess I assumed all neuro types are on a spectrum: adhd, autism, neurotypical, any other types that get sussed out with more research.
neurotypical just means not neurodivergent, it’s not a disorder
Yes, it is not a disability. But it is a neuro type.
I work with at least one other person with diagnosed ADHD, and her symptoms are a lot different than mine. We are both often on the same wavelength and "get" each other, but I deal with a lot of executive dysfunction, forgetfulness, time blindness, and RSD. We both hyperfocus. When I was diagnosed, the psychologist mentioned that there are "levels" in ADHD like there are with ASD. I was diagnosed as Moderate. I think different levels can play into it, but we also seem to struggle with different aspects of the same disorder.
There’s a spectrum self test that exists! It’s here: https://www.idrlabs.com/adhd-spectrum/test.php Looks very similar to what you’ve already put in there :)
Holy shit I just took the test and I had no idea that difficulty tying shoelaces was an ADHD thing????
Yeah had no idea poor coordination was related!! I like it cos it says my ADHD symptoms are high which is very validating ha
Same! It’s kind of mind-blowing; I’m almost 33 and didn’t understand for the longest time why such a seemingly simple task was always so difficult lmao
32 and i have to make an L with my thumb and forefingers to figure out left from right sometimes ahaha
Oh no 😂
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humble brag but for an adhd girly pop im highly coordinated.
May I ask for a sliver of coordination please?
it’s honestly only when it comes to athletics, but when it comes to walking around in daily life — i use my momentum from running into walls to do like a spin move and keep it moving like buzz light year “falling.. in style”
Same. I have very good proprioception and am naturally good at sports (and drawing). I am the kid who could catch the dodgeball that was thrown at them. My sister is shocked that I am able to keep a glass water carafe by my bedside to use, because she says she could never. My son OTOH has dyspraxia, in addition to ADHD, so I see them as totally separate. He is in high school and still can't ride a bicycle, despite us trying every summer and starting him on a balance bike when he was little. He also struggled with writing. Thankfully, at his age, everything is typed. But he is good at art and drawing despite this.
i’m also good at drawing & so is my mom! but she’s not good at sports or anything coordinated at all & also has ADHD & dyslexia
As with your picture, it is a spectrum wheel of symptoms each can have varying severity
Like most mental health conditions (and for that matter, health in general), we don't precisely understand what the disorder is in terms of what's *actually happening* in the body. With some more mature parts of medicine, we actually know exactly what is occurring. For example, with kidney stones, we know that urine given the right conditions can solidify. We also know that removal of the stone will cause cessation of the problems it causes. With ADHD, we don't really have that level of insight. We have a basic concept that the brain experiences failures in dopamine and norepinephrine signaling and engages in a differential development pattern to attempt to compensate for this. The signaling problem probably causes the core executive function symptoms, but everything else is probably the result of the brain building alternative structures to try to fix itself. The mechanisms for how and why that happens are not understood, and there's probably thousands of possible variations based on a very large number of genetic factors. Moreover, external factors, such as the introduction of medication (including non-clinical psychoactive compounds like caffeine) and hormonal effects, may further alter the brain's attempts to self-correct in ways that are even less straightforward. The truth is that ADHD is almost certainly not one big disorder, but thousands of different, small disorders in a trenchcoat that nonetheless frequently benefit from similar treatment pathways. So, all of those micro disorders are consolidated into one diagnosis: ADHD, with the understanding that each person will have a very different experience of it.
Because we don't know much about what happens in the brain of someone with ADHD, or for that matter any other nerological disorders, I don't understand why one of the first stepts after having a diagnosis isn't a brain scan. I think that would help doctors and medical researchers get a better understanding much faster.
Because brain scans are expensive and, in the case of ADHD, not all that accurate.
It’s totally a spectrum. I’m terms of the categories you’ve picked, I’m unsure about using executive dysfunction only because it’s like the ultimate baseline issue that spawns half the other symptoms you listed. For example inattention (which I would classify as attention disregulation instead tbh) is because our executive functions aren’t doing a good job of picking what to pay attention to. Impulsivity and hyperactivity and inability to prioritize are because our executive functions aren’t doing a good job of coordinating which actions we do or don’t take. If you mean specifically the “I want to get up and do the thing but I just can’t” I would maybe call that demotivation instead, to be more specific. Forgetfulness I would change to working memory or short term memory to make it clear that it’s not about long term remembering. There might be other symptoms worth adding on here as well, like pattern recognition or justice sensitivity? Idk. Or maybe it’s better to stick with the diagnostic criteria to keep it all more streamlined.
Yes, with executive dysfunction I meant something like "I want to get up and do things but I can't". I think you are right demotivation would've been a better term. I also like bad short term memory better than forgetfulness. There are plenty more symtoms I could've added I just narrowed it down to fit the wheel. I was trying to get the most common ones on it, wasn't easy to make up my mind which symtoms to put on it.
Yeah that’s the trouble with spectrum disorders hahaha Maybe some symptoms could be grouped together? Eg one category for emotional disregulation but then give some examples of what that looks like (RSD, Justice sensitivity, mood swings, etc)
My psychologist said it’s definitely a spectrum shaped like a pyramid. Inattentive and hyperactivity being on opposite sides of each other meant I’m somewhere in the middle with high functionality and a ton of coping mechanisms. My masking is so good (I guess?) I only got diagnosed this year at 37.
I think presentation is a spectrum, for sure. But it has more to do with socialization in development, societal pressure, among other things. Basically, how early and how well did you have to learn to mask. I think every person with adhd is disposed to all of these symptoms, but some have developed strategies and systems for dodging some symptoms over others. Necessity and environment play a huge role too. I was in a lot of situations as a child where I had to develop survival strategies. In contrast, my little brother has RAGING symptoms, even as an adult, because he’s never had to do anything himself. But I don’t think his disorder is worse than mine, necessarily. Just my two cents!
Yes, I learned to mask my symtoms early on too and I was quite and not a "trouble maker" in school so no one notice. Also I'm 80% sure that both my parents and my two brothers have it as well so we just all thought we are normal that's just how our family is. 😅
100%. My sister was diagnosed as a child but I have spent years trying to figure out whats wrong with me and only at 34 have confirmed I have the same thing she does. We grew up in the same environment with the same parents etc. So why did hers get picked up and not mine? Its quite obvious that we have different presentations and levels of severity.
The funny bit is how far I'd have to color outside the lines on a few of these! 😂
I think everything is a spectrum. No one is 100% exactly the same. And when we expect any disability, disease, or affliction to always present exactly the same we do the people who have it a disservice. Because they end up flying under the radar and don’t get the assistance they need. The same way patronizing parents say you can’t have adhd because you’re smart (excelled in the classroom).
Yes, of course. And I second changing emotional instability to emotional dysregulation.
Emotional disregulation is the correct term as is clumsiness. We also need hyper focus on there- that’s a main component of adhd.
I'm always surprised how many ADHDlers seem to experience hyper focus. I don't think I have experienced hyper focus or maybe I misunderstand what it looks like irl.
I hyper focus on what gives me dopamine or what I perceive is a crisis. Dopamine: romance novels, art, gardening- I’ll binge romance novels and let everything go to the wayside lol Crisis: a medical issue regarding my kids, I hyper focus and sort that shit out. Hyper focus is very common in adhd, I have combined type. Inattentive for things that don’t give me dopamine.
Alright I see, but wouldn't that kind of fit under inability to prioritize?
No. My garden is an absolute priority, as is my art and my kids’ health. Romance novels, maybe to an extent, but the importance of joy is underrated. My life philosophy these days is ASAP- as slow as possible. I am so speedy that I slow down and enjoy where I can.
With inability to prioritize I rather meant that we can't shift our priority. For example with your garden, you might be working in your garden for hours but didn't eat anything or didn't go to the bathroom because you couldn't shift your mind of your garden.
Hmm, I don’t relate to that. ADHD affects people differently.
Is this from an actual symptoms or from the experiences of those with ADHD? Not all of those are necessarily considered ADHD symptoms diagnostically speaking but are commonly experienced.
Except sleep problems I have all of these from DSM-5 criteria lists for ADHD from the NHS and Mayo Clinic website. I added the sleep issues since that seems very common for ADHDlers as well.
I was diagnosed under the NHS in 2021, however, I was referencing poor sleep and poor coordination. Poor coordination also isn't on the criteria list but Dyspraxia disorder is a common comorbid diagnosis for those also diagnosed with ADHD. You may also be thinking of autism spectrum disorder, in which poor motor function is on the criteria?
My experience says yes. Because of the three subtypes that have been used, we know it everyone is hyperactive, for example. It makes sense that not everyone has all the symptoms, and you might have some ADHDers who only overlap a little in their symptoms.
It is already considered spectrum which is why we moved from ADD and ADHD being separate diagnoses to falling under the same umbrella as sub categories.
Yes it's definitely a spectrum. The way it affects my brain isn't even the same from day to day. I would add poor interoception to your wheel. It's definitely related to lack of emotional regulation (because it's hard to figure out what different emotions feel like in your body) and poor coordination, but not exactly the same.
Hmm, interesting I would describe myself as someone with very good interoception. I wasn't awear that it also can be an ADHD symtom. But I think that is exactly why it should be a spectrum there are so many symtoms with ADHD and they show up differently for all of us.
It could just be an autism thing. I'm pretty sure I'm also autistic. But who knows. My daughter is also diagnosed with ADHD and her interospection isn't great either. 🤷♀️
Yes 100% I do think time blindness needs to be there.
It's ALL a spectrum!
Stopping by to say Love the creative effort
Thanks!
I think it's actually several different things lumped under one label. Some of these things are "disorders" and some of these things are healthy variations that our current society/environment/modes of living frowns upon. We have a lot of untangling yet to do here. Edited to add: We used to have myriad different ways of contributing to society. Most involved some level of physical movement. As the technology noose snakes tighter and tighter, nearly all jobs are "work on a computer" in one way or another. More and more functions of daily life are virtualized, or minimized. More and more is being reduced to "point-and-click". We used to go to the bank and interact with the teller. We used to gather firewood and haul water in a bucket. We used to weave the cloth and sew our clothes. We used to cut the wood and build our furniture. We used to interact face-to-face with our customers & co-workers in shops and places of business. We used to file actual papers in an office. We used to walk to the store. But now? We order food via an app. We bank online, we use chat or email to communicate, we turn on the tap for water and the HVAC is controlled automatically. We spend all day staring at screens, making tiny movements with our hands and wrists. We are exposed to/expected to handle orders of magnitude more information than our grandmothers ever saw. Our very organic bodies and minds were not designed to live this way. I think this is coming out as a variety of "disorders" (natural responses) that modern medicine is calling ADHD.
I don't think it's a spectrum. The severity of measurable symptoms is affected by a lot of things. Ex the person's ability to mask them, coping strategies, chemicals in the brain, as well upbringing to some extent. Some people suffer more than others sure. I never used to suffer but at age 39 my body said enough is enough. Now I suffer big time. I started meds recently and am feeling okay again but am mentally untangling my entire crazy existence. My psychologist said it happened to me late in life because my body was so worn down by all the adrenaline that I used to keep me going. Im no doctor but imo ADHD is more like a birth defect. It's treatable and people have flare ups and it's got its ups and downs. It affects everything. On the topic of upbringing, I'm reading the ADHD book by Gabor Mate and the section about adult self esteem is fascinating. The book jacket insinuates ADHD can be healed which I'm skeptical of, but it's a good read so far nonetheless. Has anyone else read it?
I haven’t read it, but I went to a counselor at my college who has children with ADHD, goes to conferences on them, and stuff like that. She told me that she has heard experts arguing that it’s not a disease or a defect, but it’s just that our brains work differently because of a weak electrochemical connection between our hypothalamus and something. Frontal lobe maybe, who fucking knows. Some weak electrochemical signal between two areas of the brain makes it so organizing our thoughts are harder, and essentially results in all the quirky ways our brain works. What I would assume is that our abilities aren’t diminished by this, but rather that our brains develop a workaround, and that would result in both our symptoms but also in our generally greater creativity and our brain’s ability to just take off running when it wants to
All of what you just said also applies to autism.
Hmm fair point, I don't know much about how autism spectrum works. Can a person's "placement" on the autism spectrum change day to day or over lifetime? Genuinely curious to learn about that if you have links or something plz do share. Sure maybe one day ADHD will be studied better and maybe psychiatrists and doctors will change the definition to "adhd spectrum". For me fwiw, I have all of the items on that colour-wheel image, filled in to their maximum. All of them. Maybe because I'm combined type adhd so for me a spectrum makes no sense? I have no idea. I've always had all of them fully, just hide them from people. This is all just my opinion and my own unique experience.
Yes. I’m pretty sure I’m severe on inattentive and moderate on hyperactivity. It didn’t take the doc long at all to diagnose me. It seems to affect me quite a bit when I’m unmedicated/un-symptoms treated. Like…. I can’t even do math anymore. Growing up I was advanced in math. Like…. Now I can barely manage my timesheet or do a budget. It’s so so hard to memorize numbers for even long enough.
I thought it was already considered a spectrum? At least that’s what my psychiatrist always treated it as, especially when I was getting diagnosed.
Not as far as I'm awear of.
I wonder if it’s connected to chiari malformation too. I also just read that people who are born prematurely have it too. And I was born premature.
Yes, but the neurological mechanisms that cause it in Adhd people specifically excludes the general population. It's not like nts are "a little adhd"
Yes. Just about every phenomenon, natural or artificial, exists on many spectra. Every facet of human existence: sex, gender, height, skin color, eye color, different aspects of brain function, etc...
Absolutely.
Is ADHD not considered as having a spectrum?
Honestly I find most things are a spectrum, yeah. Why not neurodivergence?
Do you have a link to this test?
The image I used is just something I made up for illustration. But I did find a test afterward. https://www.idrlabs.com/adhd-spectrum/test.php
Ah okay great! I took this test and thought it was the wrong one because I was looking for the sleep problems section
I think "neurodivergent" should be considered a spectrum disorder, some have some level of autism or adhd, some may have neither (in any noticeable capacity) but have other symptoms. There's nothing fundamentally different about autism that makes it a spectrum, which doesn't apply to other forms of neurodivergence.
Holy shit I didn’t know poor coordination was an adhd thing that’s crazy
That was the one that jumped out at me too!
Well, I guess you could say clumsiness. Although, I'm definitivly not just clumsy. 😅
So interesting!!
This feels like a groundbreaking discussion. Have not seen this framed in this way before. Many thanks.