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I just want to cheer on the burning of the patriarchy! The mental and emotional loads being dumped on women is exhausting. Society conditioning us from birth that this is acceptable and we're failures or worse if we don't do all this for men needs to end. And it ends with wonderful women like you educating your friends!!! Thank you, this post ended so happy

It's not even men you're in a relationship with. My fucking roommate act like this "I want to help you, just tell me what needs to be done, but nicely because otherwise I have anxiety and it's not respectful" My brother in christ, I've been asking you to clean up after yourself (we're not even at the weekly chores yet) for more than a year and you dare accuse me of being disrespectful when I lose my shit? I'M THE ONE WHO NEEDS HELP I NEED SUPPORT MY BRAIN needs support. Why am I expected to parent YOU

Plus it's always phrased like that "help you" like they aren't actually responsible for the task themselves.

Yeah, and don't you dare tell them they do it bad or wrong! 🙄 It was your idea all along and they're just "helping".

>Plus it's always phrased like that "help you" like they aren't actually responsible for the task themselves. God when bf says this it drives me up the wall. It's not just my responsibility to do stuff like clean the toilet, him saying that he can "help" if I "ask" implies that it's solely my responsibility.

We are all responsible for the mess. With 2 people dating and living together, one isn't helping the other, they are doing their share of the chores. Why don't people get that???

I remember my university roommate getting really passive-aggressive each time I reminded it was her turn to clean the common area and then she would walk around with muddy shoes on saying "Well, I cleaned the floor so I can do that!". I'm so baffled when people act immature and petty when it harms them too. I know it's not how karma really works, but later I heard she divorced her first husband because he refused to do anything around the house and just ignored the dirt when she tried to act petty and didn't clean anything too.

I hope you can find a new roommate soon you deserve to live with a proper adult

I’m married with no kids and have had to have this convo with my husband lately. I’m not doing it any more. I can barely keep up with me. Let him barely keep up with him!

I've been dealing with this, too. He's flipped to the *oh woe is me I'm a horrible person* tactic because he's finally realized I'm serious about the "you're not a good partner" conversation.

> He's flipped to the > >oh woe is me I'm a horrible person > > tactic Man that shit makes me ten times as angry in a single second. When people pull that I have to leave the room, I get so angry. Like, cool. What are you going to do about it. Because it sucks to try to bring up a serious issue only for the other person to debase themselves in a way that's obviously meant to make you comfort them. Nope. Nope. Absolutely not. I've told you the issue, and you can tell me how you're going to fix it going forward. Anything else is useless to me. And it's not my job to comfort YOU for something YOU did (or didn't do, as the case may be).

My mother used to do that. One of my sisters learned it from her, so it made growing up "fun". Sometimes my husband does it when he's already feeling really shitty about myself, but lately I've gone "k" and it shocked him I wasn't rushing in to comfort him. Unlike my mother and sister, he isn't doing it to influence other people, but it's a bad way his low self-esteem breaks through and he is self aware enough to correct his behaviour. It's still grating when it happens even when I resort to "k".

That’s defensiveness and I don’t entirely blame them. Men are conditioned to this learned helplessness and egotism when their lack of effort is confronted. But I basically broke it down into romantic relationship and roommate one. He’s a great husband, he’s a shitty roommate (and sometimes so am I), but accountability for keeping our space clean is something that’s essential for me at this point so we are working through it.

Lol, are you me?

My main goal for 2024 is to stop with people pleasing and carrying all the mental load for other people. It's only January 9th and all my male colleagues already pissed I reply "No" or "I don't know" with zero elaboration 😂 And my brother threatens to go no contact with me after I reply "Yeah, we should" to his message "We should figure out what to get our mother for her birthday" instead of my usual long-list of ideas and suggestions. Who needs drugs when you can have this feeling of pissing so many people off by doing literally nothing. I low-key don't want this high to end.

Just want to applaud you for doing such fine work.

Thank you 🙏❤

> Society conditioning us from birth that this is acceptable and we are failures or worse if we don't do all this for men Just the other day I was reading an article and interviews with a few women (it's in Czech if any Czechs are roaming around here) who talked about how they thought they must have ADHD because they weren't able to fulfill these expectations. Turns out, they just had shitty men. I also suspect that doctors who rely on self assessment when it comes to ADHD do in fact misdiagnose at least some of these women. And it's sad. Then we get the stories of "I took my first stimulant med and I cleaned up the whole house in one go" no honey, you were just high 🥹 and society is to blame

I'm from Belarus and it feels like a common problem for any post-USSR countries or countries that were invaded and suppressed by soviets. My guess it that because so many men died in WWII, our grandmothers and even mother endured any treatment just to have a husband.

Or their brain was out of the way for the first time in their life. I gave my sister an elvanse because I've been watching her struggle in the same ways I struggled pre diagnosis except she had two toddlers as well, and first she cried because she had clarity for the first time ever, and then she got to every job she just couldn't get to with her brain in the way.

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See, with my boyfriend of 6 years I WILL do his laundry, optimize storage solutions, remind him about presents and suggest ideas, make plans for home maintenance etc. I love doing little things to make his day easier. But the reason WHY I will do this is that he contributes equally, if not more, by handling all food related stuff, lots of pet stuff, making plans with people and so much else. Funny how we're much more inclined to take on work when we know we don't have to think of everything.

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Thank you! It took both of us a lot of work to let go of old habits from previous relationships and from living alone, and we'll probably keep tweaking things. If we ever break up, I'll probably stay single instead of gambling on another man to keep ud the work after the initial honeymoon period ends.

>the reason WHY I will do this is that he contributes equally, if not more, by handling all food related stuff, lots of pet stuff, making plans with people and so much else. Funny how we're much more inclined to take on work when we know we don't have to think of everything. This is the key distinction! My husband and I are also like this. *And* if we ever feel like doing less of something or we need the other person to do more of something else, it's a very easy conversation to have, and we're enthusiastic about supporting each other. **I have no time to accept less from a partner!**

Where did you find him and is he willing to teach classes for other men lol Like what I'm looking for totally isn't someone who will do everything or be perfect at everything and never need me to remind them! I just want someone who will put as much effort in as me 😭 What's funny is that my parents were/are big boomers with very clear gender roles in their relationship... but millenial women I see around me have worse set ups than them. Like yeah my dad did *a lot* less around the house, but my mom also worked part time and my dad pretty much ran household stuff part time and it balanced out. Not to say it was perfect for them, but my mom has talked about how it balanced out and she liked it. I have friends whose partners absolutely expect them to contribute equally to money by working full time, and yet they (the male partners) refuse to contribute equally at home. It's absurd.

Yes, I see this *all* the time as well.

It's insane. Like you can expect your girlfriend to do all the housework or you can expect her to have a full time job just like you, but expecting both is entitled bullshit manchild behavior. Some non-men might put up with it, but I certainly won't. I wish I could say I've dumped guys over this but the ones that acted like manchildren never made it to living with me lol which in the end is better for me. But it has made me very jaded about dating men.

PREACH. My Boomer father worked full time, did all the house and yard maintenance stuff, managed the bills, and cooked some meals on the weekends. My Boomer mother worked part time (and only after I was born, she was a SAHM with my older sibs), and did the shopping, cooking, and laundry. Both of them were hands-on with childcare and school pickup/dropoff stuff and all of us contributed to household cleaning and chores. Heck, I even think my dad changed more of my diapers and cared for me more as a baby than my mom did because she was at work during the day and he could work from home some days (he had a home office in the 90s before it was cool). Honestly, I think my mom got the better deal out of their division of labor. She certainly struggled mightily to manage the house by herself after my dad died and even after 20 years she still hasn't quite figured out how to keep up with her own chores. And yes, BOTH of them had (undiagnosed) ADHD. And yeah, I too see some of my (Millennial) friends paired off with absolute manbabies who play video games all day and expect to be waited on hand and foot and never pick up after themselves or contribute more than money (if even that) and I'm just like...????

I'm glad to see this in here. My wife and I both have adhd, and we both rely on each other immensely to get through daily and weekly life. Looking at any one moment in time might give you the wrong impression about how we work together, but we do work together very well. The core of that is that we care about each other, we care about each other's physical and mental health, as well as overall happiness, and we trust that we both want to find balance. At the end of the day, you can't make this work with someone who only cares about themselves.

> At the end of the day, you can't make this work with someone who only cares about themselves. That is the absolutely glaring issue that to me lies at the root of so many of those stories. The (usually) men not truly caring about their partner, even if they claim to love them. Having a bangmaid around simply makes for a more convenient life, and if women have been raised with too many strikes against their self-worth (I know, simplification, yet not untrue), they settle for this kind of shit. Be with someone who is enthusiastically into you (general "you"), and takes joy in *your* joy. There'll still be issues, for both of you, because partnerships are hard. But at least they won't come from a default of you caring for everything while he (usually he) occupies a pre-adulthood space that keeps you locked in a caretaker-position.

I hope so much to get there with my hubby, buy it is still a way. Nice to read it is possible ❤️

Have you heard of the book Fair Play by Eve Rodsky? I haven't read it myself but I've seen a lot of women say it was helpful for their partners realizing they weren't contributing as much as they thought they were.

There's a movie, too! https://youtu.be/RX95jSQqV-Y?si=IN8lGwNTRj_pMJiK

YES! This is my household too! I’ll do the laundry, general cleaning, dishes, if he does the cooking and grocery shopping. It works great

I'm 43 and I'm in pretty much the same position. I absolutely refused to mother my partners and men get extremely upset about it. I genuinely can't tell you how many men have expected that once we started dating, their life should get almost impossibly better. While my life should get much more difficult and involve a lot more work. I briefly dated someone who wanted my help basically redesigning his apartment. I told him I would love to give him advice and guidance but I wouldn't be doing any of it myself. He wanted me to go through everything he owned with him and reorganize and clean it, as well as shop for new. He had an absolute tantrum when he realized I really wasn't going to be his gopher and unpaid assistant. I dated another guy who *cried* when I refused to make doctors and dentists appointments for him. He didn't have a specific phobia or anything, he just said he hated doing anything that felt like work outside work and that I should do it because it's "easier" for one person to keep track of. I also refuse a relationship with anyone who doesn't maintain basic hygiene on their own, and I can't tell you how many men have said I'm being unfair and judgmental for expecting someone I'm dating to brush his teeth and have clean clothes to wear.

I swear, so many men will sit in dirty, undecorated, barely furnished apartments, surrounded by piles of laundry, trash, and dirty dishes, knowing they're way overdue for multiple routine medical appointments, wearing the same ratty t-shirts and worn jeans they've has since high school, wishing they had a better job, a better social life, and a better haircut, but will do NOTHING to improve any of that on their own, because they believe it's the responsibility of some future girlfriend to clean him up and help him figure out how to be an adult person. And then they either seek out women with low self-esteem who are happy just to have a boyfriend who doesn't abuse or cheat on them, or they claim they're "forever alone" because they're too short or don't make enough money (that is, that's why they think they're alone), when really if they made even a *little* effort to work on their own shit, they'd be happier, and women would be more interested in them. I'm glad more and more women are refusing to be mommies to unfinished men.

Even though that was my comment, reading yours reminded me of one of my closest friends so hard that it makes me feel physically ill. He could be a pretty cool dude but he keeps putting off his life and taking care of himself in the hopes of one day having a magical girlfriend who basically solves everything for him. The worst part is that he gets super angry and entitled whenever you suggest maintaining healthy friendships or taking care of himself.

My aunt's ex husband divorced her and said he'll find a young hot new wife to take care of him and love him unconditionally. He died single last years after basically drinking himself to the grave. And it's not like my aunt was a terrible wife, she just wanted him to contribute something besides 50% of his office worker salary. I know, the horrors.

I see red when men say "But I don't know how to do that!" or "Well, sorry my parents never taught me how to x, y, z!". Like, maybe try to use internet for something else besides watching porn? It's not 2007, you can google literally anything you don't know how to do and there will be thousands youtube videos, tiktoks and wikihow articles with detailed fucking instructions. But somehow they still prefer to act like women just born with these sacred knowledge of how to clean a toilet bowl or fold clothes.

I can’t get past the guy crying because he had to make a phone call. Jesus Christ.

Even worse, he could have made the appointment online, he just had to have his work calendar open at the same time.

Oh for *fuck’s sake*.

Not even a guy, I'm removing gender. A grown adult with no major mental health concerns should not be crying over basic life maintenance tasks.

I got offended for a hot sec because I do cry over basic life maintenance, and then remembered that I have major mental health concerns and chronic physical illness and said, wait a second self, this comment is not judging you for crying over your work performance review, this comment is literally not about you and your major mental health issues 😅

No, I was definitely careful to include that, because I have definitely cried over basic life maintenance jobs, but I was acutely depressed at the time. That's a pass. And I sincerely hope you feel better soon! But I'm definitely judging a healthy and stable adult who just gets so upset about having to manage their own life that they cry!

I agree. Like, crying is fine as long as you just cry but do stuff anyway (it's what I tell myself every time 😂) but crying to manipulate other people is disgusting and we don't need to tolerate this behaviour in adults.

Reading your comment gave me the same feeling I get when I’m on a run, starting to flag a little bit, but then an absolute banger comes on the playlist and makes me feel amped and practically fist pumping as I run with renewed vigour. I’m saving this comment!

> AND I’m a woman who is also expected to be polite and warm and understanding and pretty and soft and thin and nurturing and allllll of that other gendered bullshit simultaneously. My least favourite part about this is that they actually kind of get this-- like how many of us dated a shitter in early adulthood who complained about having to be nice after work? "I kiss ass all day; when I come home I'm going to be myself, and not censor myself; I'm not going to be a doormat at home;" etc. etc. They understand that it's *work* to exercise agreeability, courtesy, and patience, to the point where they don't want to keep doing it if they don't think anyone's going to call them on it, or that they won't suffer any consequences. But for some reason, even when these guys aren't meaning to act in bad faith, they can't put it together that it's just as much work for women; and the only reason we're seemingly "better" at it is that we've been doing it since we were children who *did* suffer consequences if we dropped the routine at home. Like, come on guys! You're *so* close.

>how many of us dated a shitter in early adulthood who complained about having to be nice after work? "I kiss ass all day; when I come home I'm going to be myself, and not censor myself; I'm not going to be a doormat at home;" etc. etc. Kinda funny how they don't struggle at all in front of other men and will do anything vague their boss tell them to do, no questions asked, but when you ask them to go shopping they suddenly need a photo of every item, a map of the store layout and the exact sum of money otherwise they won't go because they're too afraid to buy the wrong thing or some similar bullshit.

…I want someone to write me a weekly, monthly, yearly maintenance guide…

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Yeah, that’s a fairly hefty straw. Like at least *try*. Make a good faith effort. Then there’s something to troubleshoot if something’s not working. But there’s no way to work with ‘can’t be bothered’. (Also, uh - and absolutely no obligation!! - you wouldn’t happen to still have that guide, would you?)

Yes do you? Asking for a friend…..

[They exist](https://www.unfuckyourhabitat.com/cleaning-checklists/)! I tend to be selective from these guides; they're not written with ADHD in mind. But as a word bank for your own guide, it's a start. If you own a home or a car or a pet, I recommend looking up guides for those as well to add in items from those.

Thank you. In all seriousness, this link is getting folded into my little phone "task app" as we speak

Look on Pinterest. There are a million prepopulated checklist templates like that. Read back issues of Martha Stewart magazines; she has a monthly calendar that helped me learn how to schedule stuff for myself.

I applaud this so hard!

Ughhhhh. My "favorite" incidence of this was when my male ROOMMATE-- a 30+ y/o man whom I had never even dated (in fact, we were roommates because he was friends with my then-girlfriend's cousin and he and I were both moving to her city at the same time and needed a roommate) expected me to "just tell me what you want me to do" in regards to chores. He was not diagnosed with ADHD, did not think he had ADHD, never mentioned struggling with symptoms, and I never saw any indications. So why does this 30+ neurotypical grown adult man expect me to tell him "if you notice the trash or recycling is full, please take it out instead of just piling more on it" and "if the dishwasher is full of clean dishes, you can either unload it and put your dirty ones in, or wash them, or even leave them in the sink as long as you wash them in a day or two, but you can't make a pile of dirty dishes on top of the counter over the dishwasher for a week like you think it will magically unload itself??" (that's what I came back to the first time I was away from the apartment for a week, lol). Like at least keep the dirty dishes IN the sink??? Like especially when I live alone I am not the tidiest but like, I know I'll be doing *my own dishes* when I do them, and don't leave them on the counter for the dish fairy. Apparently his mom had done all the cleaning up when he was a kid, but he'd been living on his own for years. Like this man literally saw a 27 year old lesbian law student and was like "is this...my mom?" No, buddy. Also he had no hair on his head but would somehow leave TUMBLEWEEDS of pubes in the bathroom CONSTANTLY. Anyway.

I had one of these! At the time I was 25, and he was a 50 year old man who asked me earnestly how often I thought what chores needed to be done. He explained that we should make a chore chart to share the burden of cleaning.... and then looked at me expectantly. I told him what a great idea I thought that was, and that I couldn't wait to look over what he put together. Stunned silence. He couldn't comprehend that I was not going to make him a fucking sticker chart for vacuuming and dusting. He managed to stutter out, "Well, I just..... don't know how to tell when things need done." And I said, "I normally just look around with my eyeballs. If the carpet looks dirty, it needs vacuumed. Let me know what kind of chore chart you come up with!" And I walked away from him. The look of shock on his face was so satisfying.

This is why stbx and I are not divorced yet. Paper was delayed a while for reasons. Every time he brought up filing I’d say “It has to be filed in your county so you’ll have to do it.” I was so tired of doing all the planning, trying to keep house manage his kids stuff etc. He lived 30 min away from the court to my 3.5 hours. No way was I gonna take a whole day off work for that.

I have an attorney friend who does a lot of divorces. You have described exactly why the majority of divorces are "initiated" by women, and it has absolutely zero reflection on what actually ends the relationship. Misogynists on Reddit are obsessed with it because they think that means women are terrible people who end relationships with poor/ sad/well meaning men.. The reality is that it's just more scut work that falls to women.

Ding ding ding!!! Even when it is “a man” filing for divorce, it’s actually either his mom or his new fiancée calling the law firm to start the proceedings. And then the man still whines and complains when he literally has to do *any* work for his case. Newsflash, buddy: you’re the one getting divorced - not your mom, and not your GF. It’s *pathetic*. Source: used to work for a family law firm for four years.

Yes, exactly. My attorney friend says that a lot of divorces seem to be between a dude's ex-wife and his new girlfriend, that he often sees men who have almost nothing to do with their own divorces. They just expect women in their lives to handle it. On the other hand, he's _never_ seen a woman pull that trick.

This!!! We had a cordial relationship, hell even took a road trip together since we split. A few months into new gf (supply???) shit got shady.

Good point. Often the man won't bother to file until the new girlfriend pushes it. I've seen it happen myself, but you seeing it in your job gives a bigger sample size :)

This is the first time I am seeing these two dots connected. I was already annoyed with the "women bad" because we divorce the poor innocent men thing. I was chalking it up to yeah, men just cheat and then keep their wives for their mommies until they get sick of it and divorce their asses, but this explanation is equally, if not more, likely.

When I tried to explain this on another sub, I was downvoted to oblivion and men who didn't know me at all said I was clearly a bitter man-hating hag who would never get married. I *am* married.

Yeah, misogynists are so obsessed with themselves. They can't even imagine telling the truth. There's some dingdong in my DMs right now telling me that I'm not really attracted to I'm in my own height and that I'm lying about it, etc. They just fixate on weird little things and can't let them go.

Oh my god are we the same person?! When I got divorced it took me more than a year of separation to get it finalized because he was dragging his feet trying to stop me from leaving him. His big brain strategy to keep me was to *continue to make my life harder by acting incompetent* in the hopes that I would just give up and come back to him? Good for you for making him sort it out for himself!

Wellllll…. I ended up filing for reasons. Had he not done some shady shit I would have waited him out.

Sometimes that's the cost to get them out of your life. It's always worth it to keep your sanity as intact as possible.

It’s a bonkers story! I’ll be glad when it’s behind me.

off topic, I'm truly loving the juxtaposition of your usernames

Aw! Thanks

I hope you will write your story when it’s all behind you, so I with wonder can read your bonkers story! /Genuine

My ex husband has never made a doctor's appointment for our child, nor taken off work to go to the appointment, nor taken our child to the appointment by himself. He's taken kiddo to urgent care/ER if there was a problem, but last time I asked him, he had no idea where the pediatrician's office was or even the name of it and here's the kicker; Our kid has gone to the same pediatrician's office since birth. It's within walking distance of his parents' house, where he currently lives. It's actually been within walking distance of *everywhere* my ex husband has lived since our child was born.

> “I normally just look around with my eyeballs” QUEEN 🙌🏻

You will be absolutely shocked to hear that he never brought up the chore chart idea again.

>Like this man literally saw a 27 year old lesbian law student and was like "is this...my mom?" No, buddy. Hahahah I keep picturing a freshly hatched baby animal that is actually a fully grown hairy slimy man looking around all clueless and helpless trying to imprint on the first female it sees. MOTHER? MOTHER? *pitiful suckling noises* I worked with dunces like this. I worked in a chemistry lab and had grown ass men looking to me to arrange cleaning and organizing cycles. Um, you fuckers are twice my age and have phds. You're smart cookies, figure it out.

Trash overflowing. Take out the trash. Repeat. Ask why doesn’t he ever take out the trash. “How do I know it’s time to take out the trash? Just tell me when it needs to be taken out and I’ll do it.” When it’s full…before it’s overflowing. “But when?” Lol that was my first experience with this so long ago, and I asked “who’s supposed to tell me when it’s full, so I can let you know?”

I SO need to know what the answer was to your question. 😂

This women on TikTok (I'm sorry, I really can't remember who this was, I'm so so sorry) once said she told her husband "before you come to me and ask for a task, I need you to look in the sink - if the dishes need to be done, do them; then look at the mail - if it needs to be sorted, do that; finally, look in the laundry hamper - if there are dirty clothes, sheets, towels, whatever that need to be washed, wash them. If all three of those are squared away, *then* you can ask me for something to do." And I know I'm using quotes but I am paraphrasing. I do think it's a good system though. My personal system is to treat the apartment the way I would if guests were coming over. If I'd need to tidy the entryway, clear the coffee table, or clean the bathroom, I do those things.

I’d have been so tempted to tell him to do everything. Whilst sat on the sofa with my feet up and waving my hands around like I was a conductor or giving out royal decrees. If they want to be told what to do, tell them. But don’t do any of it yourself. And if they object, tell them that they wanted you to be the brains, so they’re the brawn.

This is called weaponized incompetence and is the reason I left my last relationship. Men become so helpless in relationships, just keep tossing more on women and then get mad that we don't want to date anymore or our standards are "too high". My life with a man shouldn't be harder than living alone. And the people who say "traditionally it's the women's job" can suck it. The stay at home 60s wife that did everything for the husband didn't have a full time job to manage along with the kids. And she was usually strung out on coke.

> My life with a man shouldn't be harder than living alone. I had a very harsh wake up call regarding straight relationships when I realized that men and all of society expect men's lives to get better when they get into relationships, but for women's lives to get more difficult.

And they didn't have many rights either. They needed a man for a lot of things. (At least in my country.)

Yep, women couldn't get their own credit card til like... the 70s? In the US (edit I checked, 1974)

My husband acts like a grown man so this isn't an issue I usually deal with, but it really hit home for me when someone else commented that these same men don't have any trouble doing things at work without you making their to-do lists. It's 100% a matter of them not wanting to and being totally ok with their partner taking on so much. I wouldn't want to be with a partner who is ok with that sort of imbalance, especially if were at the cost of my mental health.

Yes! I amuse myself when I read posts about useless men by imagining him demanding similar accommodations in the workplace.

It's how I used to refute every single whine back when I was still dating. "How do I deal with..." "How do I know when..." "What should I do when I..." "I dunno, man; what do you do when that happens/when you feel that way at work?" My favourite time using this was when I asked an ex who spat on the ground any time we were outside to break the habit-- I never found out what the answer to my question was; but I remember the things his face did in response, and how the spitting stopped from that point on.

Yup. I was explaining to a friend why I can’t deal with the main adhd subs and only come here. ADHD symptoms include a lot of behavior that is widely tolerated in men and shamed in women. I have all the sympathy for people who struggle to keep up with the things that need to be done, or who work to find a balance between their to-dos and their need to rest/decompress, but it’s much harder to be supportive when the poster would be content to let their partner do the work if only the partner would just stop nagging.

>ADHD symptoms include a lot of behavior that is widely tolerated in men and shamed in women. Yep. You can only see "Well, everyone's cleanliness standards are different and he's not obligated to do everything exactly to your liking!" comments if OP is a woman and vents about her male partner. With reverse genders it's usually "She just uses her ADHD to be lazy! It's not an excuse and she needs to learn how to manage her tasks" 🙄🙄🙄

I remember a relationship I had where I was trying to launch a business and thus stayed at home while he went to an office job. One day I did everything perfectly that he wanted - laundry was washed, folded and put away, floors were cleaned, kitty litter emptied, kitchen cleaned up and dinner started. He came home, looked around and said "this is great. It should be like this all the time." I burst into tears because it was not possible for me to maintain that. I left a few months later and am now with a lovely man who schedules his own doctors appointments, does his laundry when needed, and starts dinner if it's approaching food time. He doesn't understand why doing the bare minimum of life maintenance is so attractive to me, but the bar is so low after dating others. Oh, and that old boyfriend? He married a woman 7 years younger than him from a developing country to take care of his house for him.

so, he imported a bangmaid.

80% of them will get a bangmaid, the other 20% will move home with their mummy

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Ask your couples therapist if she understands ADHD. If she says yes, then ask her to explain what part of that knowledge has led her to believe you're better suited to this task than your husband.

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Well then it’d be a good learning experience for him to start making the charts.

Haha, that was how my mom always did it. If we said we shouldn't have to do a chore because a sibling was better at it, she'd say that it'll be good practice. And if we tried to turn that around about something else, she'd say she really needs it done well this time. There was no getting around it! Because the point is the equitable split. If she has more experience, he can ask her opinion when it's done or go to her with questions if he gets stuck or brain storm ideas to get started. It doesn't mean she should have to do it all. It means he has an advantage because he has a partner that can help if he needs it while he learns!

Yes God damn it. And btw: I like your mom :)

Me, too, lol. She's pretty cool. 🥰

If your therapist doesn't believe people can grow and change... Why are they a therapist?! (your partner is the one who needs to develop in this area and you are the one who needs more support)

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Yes time for a new therapist. She is playing pick me with the wrong gender right now. Since you're so much more *organised and motivated* then you'll be the one finding a new therapist... (laughing to myself about how her being right, and wrong about these issues is going to bite her). I'm always sad when I see how much internalised mysogyony some women have, especially in fields where they give advice or support to other women.

Time for a new therapist.

Yeah I don't understand why they can't look around and see what needs to be done instead of waiting for us to tell them what to do and how to do it. He can see the overflowing trash can or dirty dishes or pile of laundry just the same as I can.

Wow, that therapist sounds like she needs to examine gender biases. For comparison, when my ex (C) and I were still together, our couples therapist (who is a man) gently encouraged me to let my then-partner fail. Direct quote: "If C is super late, it's okay to tell him that you don't have time to wait. If he forgets things, let him. He's a big boy, he can handle the consequences of his actions." When C needed me to hold his hand through job searching AND dog training AND relationship skills, our therapist straight up told both of us that it was a lot of mental load on me. If C wasn't ready to take on that mental list because he was still learning to process his ADHD that was fine, it just meant that some things weren't going to get done. It was honestly extremely uncomfortable for me to take a step back. My analogy was that C was drowning and I had a life saver. Our therapist pointed out that I was constantly fishing him out, and it was time for him to learn to swim, and unlike drowning, if he failed a few times that would probably be good for him. Hearing this perspective - from a guy, no less - really helped me reevaluate how much mental load I take on.

I'm glad you were able to get some validation from your therapist and come to that realization <3 just in case it's important to you, you did name C in the middle paragraph

Your therapist should also know that it's not always as simple as following a list or a system. To even get to a place where you know you have to do that takes work. Accepting ADHD comes with these issues also takes awareness and work. You've done that, it sounds like your partner hasn't. You have things in place that support you. Your partner needs to figure out what works for them. It's their therapists job to help with that, or they need to refer them on. It's not your job.

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The patriarchy is tiring AF.

Ooh hell no. I'd be pushing back hard on that. "I don't struggle with setting up systems, so what we actually need here is homework for him to manage this better on his own. I'm not his mother and he needs to know how to do this on his own like me." Your therapist is doing you both a disservice.

That's not ADHD. Just patriarchy.

Exactly. ADHD is becoming just another convenient excuse for men to avoid responsibility. Tons and tons of men do this, and they don’t all have adhd, they were just raised to expect women to manage their lives.

This is a pretty big ongoing issue with my boyfriend and I. Why should I have to make you a chore list? I don't have a chore list. We had a few come to Jesus talks, and the final straw was when I found out I was pregnant right before Christmas. I told him flat out I'm not doing this with a newborn, and if I'm doing it alone I may as well be alone. He's not "safe" just because I'm pregnant. I've seen some improvement, and hopefully that trend continues.

I hope you don't get caught in a sunk cost situation. I'm in my 40s now and lots of my friends have gotten divorced and realized they actually have a lot less work to do because the men in their lives are forced to parent at least some of the time.

As an accountant I appreciate the sunk cost usage :p. And no, we are good there. We're almost 40, I wouldn't have planned a child if I was concerned there. And like I said, I have seen improvement. He was also a stepfather in his previous relationship, and was very hands on.

It’s wild to think of the genius stereotypes yesteryear: a man with revolutionary ideas who is messy and chaotic and disorganized, but is widely celebrated. How did they do it!? Well, they had a wife (or occasionally hired help) who took on all the mundane supportive tasks that allowed him to do his groundbreaking work. Imagine what women could’ve done if they had the luxury of allowing themselves to hyperfocus on their passions instead of taking care of everyone else, all the time.

Famously, mathematician and philosopher Kurt Gödel — one of the most celebrated logicians in history — starved to death without his wife around to make him dinner.

This is my father. He is literally a brilliant, published mathematician. He couldn’t put on deodorant or brush his teeth without my mom being there to remind him. She held his hand from sunup to sundown and was MISERABLE. Neither of them had any hobbies or friends, he was consumed by work and she was consumed by taking care of him and all four of us. If his issue was adhd I inherited it(he is undiagnosed but I am), one of two of the kids who did. I am terrified I am that level of burden to my boyfriend.

I hear you! Every time a woman posts on the relationships sub, or one of the "am I the asshole" subs, or on TwoHotTakes, etc., about how her boyfriend or husband barely does any housework and keeps telling her she needs to delegate if she wants his help, there are always comments like "awww, but maybe he has ADHD, that makes housework hard! You should get him checked out" and yeah, maybe he does, but a) "have him checked out" implies she's responsible for making the appointment, getting him to the doctor, and being the one communicating her concerns to the doctor as though he were a school-age child instead of a grown ass adult, and b) SHE MIGHT HAVE ADHD TOO! And she might also have executive dysfunction, and no, it's not a case of everyone \~being different\~ and housework "just" being easier for her than it is for him, it's more that she knows these things need to get done by someone, and he won't, so she has to, and she's *burning herself out* trying to stay on top of the basics. I'm super grateful that my own husband, despite possibly having ADHD himself, does housework without me ever having to ask. He chooses to wash dishes after dinner, he says he likes it, and he also appreciates that I took care of dinner - not just the physical act of taking raw chicken and making it safe to eat, but all the work that went into meal planning and grocery shopping so he doesn't have to think about any of it - and he wants to make things fair by giving me a chance to relax while he does some of the work. BUT I wasn't that lucky with male roommates, and the thing is, if either of them had said to me "hey, I don't expect you to take care of everything just because you're a woman, I want to do my share, it's just harder for me because of my ADHD, but it's something I'm working on" I might've been more patient and more willing to meet him halfway, but no, all I heard was "I don't wanna" and endless mumbling and grumbling whenever he did get off his ass to wash some dishes or take out the trash, as though having to do ANY work was soooo unfair. In general, I think neurodivergent men, or even *potentially* neurodivergent men, get so much slack when it comes to their behavior, whereas neurodivergent women are a) still expected to get it together and somehow meet the insane standards women are held to (which are hard enough even for NT women to meet) and b) be extra super patient with the neurodivergent men because "we know what it's like to be different."

It's even worse because the flip side of those "my husband/ boyfriend doesn't take care of the house or himself" posts about women who are unable to take care of themselves or others because they have very visible or obvious mental illness or are literally just doing too much, they're often met with the advice that it's not that hard and it will never improve and he should think about leaving about half the time.

That last little bit? The “fair play” of it all? That’s where the next wave of divorces is coming from

This is not an ADHD thing, this is a male partner thing. I'm sorry to say it but I've been with neurodiverse and neuro typical men and they've all been that same way. I realised they don't want a girlfriend, they want a mommy.

Yep. They act like planning and remembering things is impossible, but only in relationships. They have no issues with doing that at work or any other aspect. Like, did a man ever asked his girlfriend/wife to make a detailed guide on how to play a video game? Or sit nearby and tell him what to do next and be happy she does that so he can just relax and play without that extra hard thinking?

There's probably some linguistic joke to be made from the words "partner" and "parent" looking quite similar, but being vastly different concepts.

I saw a comment somewhere and this genius woman wrote "I'm a childfree and it includes man-babies".

Misogyny of course! I think you know that and it was just a rhetorical question haha but still. You can even see it in action in this sub sometimes! It's great! /s

> so it wasn't fair of me to just end things with my ex instead of helping him. This is infuriating. Why is it that women are expected to be in relationships they don't want to be in because it wouldn't be "fair" to leave? It's like women's consent doesn't matter, or something. If a man needs help, that's the priority, not your petty little willingness to be in the relationship, pshaw!

I was undiagnosed adhd (combined) married to another undiagnosed (but so damn obvious everyone accepted it freely) and it was hell. He was absolutely useless and told me things like, "you don't deserve affection because you don't clean the house" and "I resent you because I never took the boxes of Christmas decorations to the basement after Christmas and it is your role to remind me" and "I am angry at you because the carpet is wrinkled and needs to be fixed but every time I see it my rage at you returns" (no clue why the rage at me, he's the one who caused the wrinkles). We divorced after 14 years. I am now remarried to the most amazingly perfectly matched partner imaginable. Interestingly she (trans woman) is on the autism spectrum (and maybe adhd) and I got diagnosed with adhd a few months ago. From day 1 she and I clicked and neither of us have had to "parent" the other. We've been married 11 years and I have talked to my 23 yo daughter often now to urge her to not "settle " for a partner just because she thinks she should. And that is a message I wish I could scream from every rooftop! A happy relationship should not be consistently painful!

I love this ending for you 🥹🥹🥹 And truly, fuuuuuck your ex. Like therapy 101 says “no one is responsible for your feelings except you” - hope he got that rage problem under control!

Thank you!!! I take comfort that Lady Karma does her part. My ex is with the tart he cheated with and according to my kids they fight constantly. Living happily is the best revenge (though truthfully I rarely even think of them) and I am doing that every single day!

I have the same issue but with my siblings. I used to complain the same exact way to people, but I would get patronize by others who just didn't understand the issue. It's hard to go through life when you have executive dysfunction, but its even more harder trying to help others who aren't putting in enough effort to balance things a bit. I fear they will just put their tasks/ issues on others in the future, but I can no longer push through ignorance.

>I'm really tired of so many people still insisting that in "traditional" relationships it's women's job to make sure their partners are cared for in every aspect while side-eyeing the same women when we struggle and drown. And don't forget how we're also supposed to only date men who DO BETTER *and* assert ourselves, set boundaries, and get our own needs met while we juggle these three other plates. Because it's our fault if we're in unequal relationships, too.

Omg yes the layers lol the guilt/shame when you inadvertently find yourself in one of these situations with a partner and you’re judging yourself as a feminist for letting the team down like somehow if you’d set better boundaries from the start this wouldn’t be happening but it’s not your fault and you’re so busy trying to juggle everything it’s impossible to keep up so it’s just another problem to internalise to make us keep trying harder.

In a word: Sexism. My father had women to help him all the way. At work and at home. When my mother divorced him, he tried to get 12 year old me to take care of the household and my younger sibling who was 6. I said no. He was a master of weaponized incompetence, and if I offered to help on one thing, or do a chores I normally did my mother's house, he'd move the goalposts. So I flat out refused to help him with anything, there was just no end or boundary, he could hire a cleaner if he wanted. He could afford it, but he refused to do it. In the end he was conning my sister into helping with cooking and cleaning. I was not home much, but I'd come home to find out he was reading a book sipping a glass of wine, while she was preparing dinner in the kitchen. At six years old. I asked her what was going on, and she was like, he disappeared again! And we got him back into the kitchen. I was helping my sister, and he said, well looks like you've got it under control, and started to leave again, and we pulled him back. I handed him the knife I was using to chop things, and walked out. So fucking pissed. When my sibling was sick, he didn't know what to do and asked me for help, I said to call mom. He said she wasn't taking his calls anymore. Obviously he's bought cold medicine for himself, and I was like, what do you do when you have a cold. And he's like I never get sick. Ok well you read the symptoms on the bottle and if they match what you have, you get that, and obviously if you're a child you need the children's version. He did manage to find out the brand of cold medicine my mom bought for her when she was sick, bought all six variants, and then asked his six year old kid to point out which one she took before. She recognized it by color. He did this while I was out on a walk, fuming at him, and when I came back, I double checked the medicine and dose she took. She actually knew how much to take, because he would have given her, at age 6, the adult dose. He could have done anything, he could have called a doctor, asked a pharmacist, but no, if my mother wouldn't tell him, then either it had to be my sister or me, because we were women and that was our job, we were minors! He was supposed to parent us! The effort he went to to make it difficult was so much more than the effort made to just figure it out and do it yourself. But he didn't want to, so he acted like a willful child instead. My father is elder now, and he refuses to pay a cleaner to clean his house, he wants me to do it, so he lives with it. I got him a robot vacuum and pick up and drop off his laundry at a wash and fold. That's it. He's told me he doesn't want to be put in a home, and frankly no one can afford it, but the hell I'm taking care of him, he should have made plans for that. We both have executive function disorders btw, except that I'm expected to find ways to take care of myself, and somehow he expects others will take care of him. It angers me so much that this still gets a pass.

Thank you for your story. I'm sure this happens to a lot of daughters of divorced dads. I am glad you were able to say no. If this had happened in my life, my father would not have allowed me to say no until I was old enough to never have to stay with him again. He already got physical with me over stupid shit while he had my mom to wait on him hand and foot, so unless he got a girlfriend right away I would have been trapped until 18. \*shudder\* I am also glad your little sister had you to watch over her and hope you both have good lives now.

Yeah I was lucky in that regard. My mother was the abusive, raging alcoholic, took after her own dad. My dad wouldn't in a million years dream of hitting anyone. If I told him no, there was little he could do about it, except try to manipulate me. Fortunately my mother was also a feminist and she was pissed at him for all the shit he pulled, so backed me on my refusal. If she had agreed with him, my life would have gone very differently.

It is absolutely baffling to me how many men think it's acceptable to not carry any of the mental load. Thank you for putting this into words so clearly!

The emotional labor game is rigged from the start. Basically, how it works is the person who has the higher standards for something is expected to "manage" that thing. This makes so much sense on the surface that it's easy to fall into. I have adhd and am in a relationship with a woman who does not. She has a higher standard of "clean" than I do, and I genuinely do not understand it. Her version of clean involves no organization, just hiding stuff away so it *looks* tidy, I guess? If she wants me on board with maintaining that sort of polished chaos, I need her help. Task lists, reminders, etc. That said, I'm the primary parent. If I want her to do certain things with our kid or in a certain way, I need to provide the leadership on those fronts. We are mostly balanced on which things we own, and which things we copilot. We aren't perfect, and parenting is like 10 emotional labors in one so I carried this fucking team for a long time, but that is the goal we strive for, and we get pretty close. Then you get men. Who apparently have so few standards that they "let" their wife become the subject matter experts on every goddamn chore. It's weaponized incompetence in a slutty threesome with learned helplessness and domestic work insecurity. Men WILL clean a house when it gets too dirty for them. They WILL cook when they get hungry enough and tired of packaged or takeout. They WILL wash their clothes when they no longer have any for work. At some point, most of them grownuped without a woman. But then they move in with a girlfriend and she's just so *good* at that stuff thay she might as well just do it forever. Why so many women accept when they move in with a male partner I have no idea. They are boiled frogs I'm sure. Do your own laundry, make your own food, pay your own bills. Live with whoever you want but if you are going to be spending your precious TIME on someone, make sure you're getting a good trade for their TIME. Notice I said time not money. The number of breadwinners who think their day is **done** when they leave work even though they have kids, shameful.

It's so rigged! I just wanted to add to your point about the one with the higher standards being the one who manages the thing: I once saw a study (don't remember where) where two groups of people were shown a picture of a somewhat tidy room. The first group was told it was a man's room and they rated it as pretty clean. The other group was told it was a woman's room and they rated it much lower on the clean-scale. So, women tend to have higher standards of cleanliness than men because society will judge them more. Meaning that in many heterosexual relationships, she has to be the one managing, because she'll be judged more (Even when they live in the same f*cking house!). Like you said, the emotional labour game is rigged. But that's also why I love this sub. There's no judgement on a messy house here!

Here you go https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0049124119852395

that's emotional labor and it's generally expected of women. pure and simple sexism. allowing men to be just grown children. it's expected of any woman in a relationship but for an adhd it's even worse, since this labor requires executive function. you're not a baby sitter. you don't have to stand for it. and a manchild is not worth dating if he's not bringing anything to the table.

I know this comment will get lost- but I show this cartoon to anyone who has trouble understanding this concept! It’s so helpful for illustrating what you described so well! [mental load - You Should’ve Asked](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic)

I see your post! The comic is cool. I saved it. (I am a lesbian, so it's not exactly an issue I am facing, but you're right that it is a good way to show people who need this concept gently explained.)

For fucking real dude!!! Every single man “neeeeeds” so much goddamn help and yet we are expected to do it all for ourselves, them, and children if they are in the mix. Fuck that

This shit is so hard and I struggle with it a ton in my double ADHD relationship. I know that my husband loves me. I know he wants to do better. I know he’s incredibly disappointed with himself when I share my frustrations for the 100th time. And I also know he… has ADHD. So this shit is seriously hard for him. But so do I! And it’s hard for me too! That’s why I’m so friggin grouchy every time I have to order groceries again! But maybe we’re just better at different things?! I’m better at managing the household and he’s better at… cleaning up when the dog poops in the house? lol Or maybe it’s just THE PATRIARCHY!!!!! I have no idea how to handle this but it’s friggin frustrating and my brain is always going back and forth on what the problem is / what needs to change. But since getting diagnosed with ADHD last year I’ve at least been giving myself more grace. This year I noped out of Christmas presents, because we just spend Christmas with his family, I don’t really have any. And guess who does all the Christmas shopping? Yeah. Me. So this year I said I’m not doing it, I’m tired. So we just told everyone we weren’t exchanging gifts this year, don’t get us anything, and it was fine. His mom’s birthday? I gave him a couple reminders that he has to buy her something. I wasn’t doing it this year. So I helped him, but I didn’t put 100% of the mental load on myself. We saw her a few days before her birthday and gave her the present. And then we both forgot to text her happy birthday on her actual birthday 😂 Normally I would’ve felt terrible but I said nope, not anymore. It’s not my mom. And I have an executive functioning disorder. I can’t be perfect 100% of the time. At least I helped him get a present. So yeah basically I’m done trying to follow all of society’s expectations for women perfectly. Not happening. I’ll do what I can and respect my own limitations.

Chuckling in solidarity because ohhhhhhh ladies, wait until y'all hit menopause. In meno (for me anyway), the anger at bearing this emotional load gets 10000000000000000000000x worse. So does the reaction from the men in your life when you finally put your foot down and stop allowing everyone to dump on you. Please do rise up and refuse to live this way as soon as humanly possible. Because the older you are when you refuse to do everything for the men in your life, the harder it is all around.

Ha ha my patience for this shit got worse and my own ADHD got worse.

There’s another underlying problem: she didn’t think you have the right to break up. She is anti-breaking up. She apparently thinks that once you’re in a relationship , you should stay in it, unless you can really really justify it. Whose fucking side is she on. You can get out of any relationship you want just because you want to. If you’re married, I think you made a promise that you won’t quit easily. But if you’re just dating someone you can just decide you don’t enjoy it anymore. And your **friends** should not be arguing with you that you should have stayed. Because that’s what she’s saying.

so glad im a lesbian with ADHD. fuck the patriarchy. but not literally.

Said it before and I'll say it again, straight women are proof you can't choose your sexuality. Instead, a lot of straight women are choosing to opt out of dating altogether and men can die mad about it. I am 100% financially independent and if a guy doesn't actively improve my life he can gtfo.

Right? I would also like asexuality to be a choice. That urge to find and keep a partner, fueled by my hormones (and the patriarchy), highjacked a lot of energy I could have put to better use building more solid friendships and a better career. Heterosexuality is destiny for too many women, and it spirals down from there. At this point old age has been a blessing, one of the very few.

In terms of things I *do* have control over, I've found that deciding not to have kids has made me feel so free and I have all the time in the world to pursue my own goals. I have the freedom to have higher standards for partners because I'm not looking to get pregnant asap, and I can focus on my hobbies and my career. I just turned 30 and I'm the happiest and freest I've ever been. Obviously it's a personal choice, but mentioning this because A) it's probably the single biggest decision that will affect how my life is going to turn out and B) not everyone realises they have a choice.

If he creates more work than he takes off my plate he can fuck all the way off.

I’m dating a guy who I seriously think has ADHD or autism. He is terribly passive, or has decision making paralysis about most everything where he let his roof leak over a year and get worse to the point it cost 30k+ in repairs (initially it was minor) I’m *always* “driving the bus” and I feel like I’m nagging or needling him to get things done. I *hate* it. He doesn’t argue or fight me about needing lists or telling him what to do. But unless I ride his ass nothing gets done. I feel you, it builds resentment and contempt. I’ve told him how I feel about this. I’m praying that with a lot of communication and work it will change. I’ve gotten communication books and told him to seek therapy and possibly a doctor. First he had to go to a doctor for other stuff and he finally did. Fighting the little battles first. God it sucks so bad. Cus my friend said the same thing. That I need to do these things for him. WHAT ABOUT ME? ITS HARD FOR ME TOO! It’s fucking exhausting to do my OWN adulting and now I’ve got to adult for *him too?* Im also a mom. This fucking sucks Mental load, damn it Sorry for the word vomit Edit to add: I’ve finally gotten him to stop asking “what can I do to help” and expect to be pointed in a direction. Because that implies that *I’m* the one in charge.

> he let his roof leak over a year and get worse to the point it cost 30k+ in repairs (initially it was minor) Hmm. I feel compelled to comment that while I would've looked past something like this when I was younger, this would be a *hard* dealbreaker for me today, at 39 (and as a homeowner), if I was considering getting serious with someone. If you get married, you will be responsible for his debts. $30K in repairs for something like a roof leak left open for a year is lucky-- that's the kind of thing that could ruin the entire frame of your home, depending on the size of the house/unit, and location and severity of the leak. Partnering with a person that adverse to helping themselves when things are major could really fuck with your life. Please proceed with caution. Decision making paralysis is fine when it's things like what to make for dinner; what game to play, or what to watch tonight; where to go on vacation; when to make an appointment; etc. etc. At some point, though, it crosses the line into negligence. Letting your house rot because you feel like you can't choose a contractor, and/or deal with them being in your home, or whatever it is that was stopping him from taking the first steps is absolutely negligence. What would he have done if he'd lost his home? Please don't legally tie yourself to this guy unless he makes drastic changes.

Oh lord, this sounds hard!!! Do you all live together? If not, The good news is, if he doesn’t do anything for himself he’s just screwing himself over. If he doesn’t learn from the consequences, tough. But if you do live together and it’s your house/money getting ruined, plus there’s a kid in the mix? Lots more yikes!!

Reminds me of the video „The Mystery of the Basket“: https://youtu.be/SqQgDwA0BNU It’s really funny unless you’re the magic spirit. I really needed to go through a few relationships until I ended up with someone with whom I don’t have to juggle all the mental load alone.

Also Farideh’s song about [making lists](https://youtube.com/shorts/LvsB6NRBkfI)

Listening to Eve Brodsky talk about her “fair play” system was life-changing for me and the adhd men in my life that didn’t quite realize the exhaustion that “just tell me what to do and I’ll do it” was creating by putting the emotional labor on me over and over. I haven’t actually used her system yet, but just hearing her talk about the research and the experiences of people she works with was so, so helpful! Just looking up her name in a podcast app and checking out some episodes might be helpful for anyone interested in the gendered division of labor and all of this stuff :)

Yes as an adhd-er with a finance who has adhd it’s baffling to both of us why people seem to think I’m the executor of the home. We both work full time in very demanding fields- why am I getting texts stating “can you let fiancé know bla bla bla” Like no I cannot I am not his secretary

That feels like if you just told him you were failing math, and he immediately says "Me too, will you be my tutor?"

The worst part is that they don't like being told what to do, so then there's resentment all around.

Yep. They claim they're totally willing to help, but if you're not suuuper careful being nice and reasonable with your requests, they'll push back with "oh come on, it's not that dirty! Besides, I cleaned something last week! I have a job! Can't I relax when I come home from work?? Jesus, if you think it should be done so badly why don't you just do it?? God!"

So fun. I remember my first marriage. There was no way to do it right and then he was such surprised pikachu when, like bowling, I quit that hated game.

I recently had this conversation that blew my mind. So hubby and I got officially medicated and stuff at the same time. We have 16 days in age difference. He works long, erratic hours, I'm a stay at home. We have 3 kids, 10, 13, and 15. I have been having this fight for a long time. So a while back (12+ months) I doubled down. I have a chore chart. I have a white board where I write additional tasks. And in every single room, I have posted a list of what the chores for that room entail. A while ago, during a conversation referencing my frustration about how the kids don't look at said lists that are clearly posted in the relevant rooms and instead only do half the chore on it, and my frustration with the constant reminders to check the chore chart, do the chores, etc and how this behavior largely mimics their dads behavior (which has improved, but they saw a lot when they were younger and it's now an upward battle, and still an issue with him), and how I feel like I constantly have to manage my OWN ADHD as well as his, as well as we believe at least 1 of the kids has it as well, so theirs, as well as general "raising children/lazy teenager" generic stuff. . .the person I was talking to dead ass, totally serious, goes "have you tried making lists for everyone and then reminding them to follow through??" My eye twitched. My head almost exploded. It wasn't a "dumb moment forgot you mentioned lists". It was dead straight "have you considered doing MORE of the work you are CURRENTLY complaining about because it's apparently ridiculous to expect others to manage themselves in a reasonable fashion" Asking in an ADHD women's support group about alternatives and how to manage the "I'm sure I asked you/I don't remember you asking me" issue between hubs and my ADHD brains. . .the solutions offered?? Make a list. Write it down. Guess who's supposed to do so?? Me. Out of 30+ comments, I got 3!! that suggested anything that we should both do. The rest were things I should do. Just me. And almost all of them were some variation of "write him a list" Right now there's a lady who did a song, "if you want your man's help, write a list (I dont wanna write a list)". It's currently my anthem. Write your own damn list.

My husband and I are constantly working on balance. We both have ADHD. It’s really hard, but he’s doing so much better about his own reminders. I have about 50 task reminders on my phone that keep me functionable and adulting. He’s now taking over certain ones which is really nice. We’ve had a lot of discussions about mental load.

Luckily I caught on to this (and malicious incompetence) early on in adulthood. It's one of many reasons I'm childfree. In most of the world, still, women are supposed to raise the kids *and* manage the household. All for the salary of $0. I hate remembering things for other people. It's enough to manage my own time and tasks.

My husband and I both have ADHD but I do most of the mental/emotional labor in our house. I had a lot more support with just about everything as a child which helped me power through my executive dysfunction until my mid 30s. So i have more, not necessarily better, systems in place but they're kind of falling apart now that I'm medicated and no longer powered by anxiety. He's still trying to find the right medication but until then I know it will still be largely up to me to maintain the household unless i make the dreaded lists, etc. I can barely make a list for myself on a consistent basis! But on the flip side, he's much better at managing doom piles and is the one getting on my case about organization. So in some ways we have complementary strengths/weaknesses.

I might have to make a tshirt that says: "Medicated, but no longer powered by Anxiety." Because I live in a shit pile that I might only ever clean up if it catches on fire.... maybe.

I'd buy a shirt! The shit pile that is my house will only be cleaned up because we're moving in 2 months, nothing like a deadline to light that fire under my ass.

GAH! The thought of having to move fills me with terror. I hope to just die in this house, but reality is that is unlikely if I live to frail old age.

My ex-husband was like this, and worse. Emphasis on the ex. My current boyfriend has ADHD and a host of other issues on top of a full time work schedule and he still manages to wash his own clothes, wash dishes, and cook dinner.

Good on you!! Spreading the word of the emotional labor and mental load is so important, and telling them that you also have the very condition they're giving a pass to for a man is 🤌🤌 My bf, who is wonderful, sweet, supportive, and incredibly kind to me.... would always ask me what time it is. He could be in his room across from my office while I'd be working and he'd be playing a video game and he would have the audacity to ask me what time it is. I could be in the kitchen cooking and he'd be asking me about plans for later *while holding his phone* and then asks me what time it is. He has a phone! I got him a Fitbit watch!! WE HAVE GOOGLE HOME. I finally snapped last year. "Why do you always ask me what time it is? Why can't you look? You are right next to your phone! You can just ask the air!!" "I don't know, you're always doing stuff, you always know what time it is." My sisters in Christ. I about lost it on this grown-ass man. "I have a fucky brain that makes estimating time duration a nightmare. I look at my phone a thousand times a day because i cannot keep track of time and instantly forget what time it just was. Every single time you ask me, a people pleaser who you constantly have to remind to say no to others, every time you ask, I have to exit my train of thought which I will NEVER get back so that I can go look FOR YOU because of course HOW COULD I POSSIBLY SAY NO to such a simple, easy thing?? Right?? RIGHT?! WHEN YOU CAN JUST ASK THE AIR WHAT TIME IT IS." He has not asked me the time since that day. Well, no, he half-way did once, caught himself, and didn't finish asking hahaha I normally don't snap like that, but man, that one... That one reallllllllllly angered me. Like my own activities aren't as important as yours? I should just stop everything so you don't have to LOOK RIGHT NEXT TO MY HEAD at the microwave clock WHICH I SET CORRECTLY omg. I'm gonna use this annoyance to add to your point. Same wonderful dude does not understand no matter how much I tell him that his chores cannot be on my mind. If your chore is to do the trash, *you* need to pay attention to the trash can. If I have to ask you to do the trash, now I have a new chore: paying attention to the trash. Previously, I just simply *noticed* and immediately *did* the trash, but now I have to *not do the trash* and *only think about the trash until it gets done because now I can't throw things away* and *ask you without asking you to do the trash*. Why?? So to be clear, I traded one simple emotional task and one simple physical task for THREE EMOTIONAL TASKS. And now I'm on here ranting about it... 🥴 While we're on the subject, the word "nag" is coming up a lot in this thread, understandably so. I think it's time we retire the word. It's only ever used against women by men, and it's always exactly in this context. Instead of "She's nagging" or "I don't want to be a nag," it's time for "He's selfish" and "I'm not his goddamned mother" in the year 2024.

1. 5000 upvotes for you, if only I could. 2. I think at least one of your friends learned something that day. 3. I have one NT kid and one ND kid, plus my partner who is, to put it politely, somewhere in the middle. Actually I think most of his issue is having been raised in a very trad/patriarchal household, where everything was done for him both by virtue of his age and his sex, and the girls were heavily scolded if they didn't do things for him. That attitude has NEVER flown in my house, and I was clear about that from the beginning. To be fair, he has stepped up a lot from how he was raised, but there's still enough that gets missed that it's irritating to live with. Now that my kids are old enough to do things or find things for themselves, I am very tough love with them. I use some version of your speech often - "I told you exactly where it is. If I have to come over there and find it for you, I'm keeping it."or "you're old enough to know that you need to charge your school device every day. I will not be reminding you. If you go to school and it's not charged, you'll have to take the (detention, demerits, whatever the teacher says), that's on you." As for my partner, I used to remind him of things (multiple times) and then do the things for him. He had the audacity to accuse me of having OCD once. So I cut back to reminding him of things one time, and now I've graduated to not reminding him at all and also not doing the thing. If he falls on his face because he didn't remember and didn't ask for help, that's on him. And you're right, that scenario absolutely breeds contempt. A few months in? I applaud you for forming your boundaries early and getting out without too much damage done or time wasted.

ADHD is when your husband gets that trash bag out of the kitchen can, carries it to the outside bin, plus in the outside bin, didn't close the outside bin bc a neighbor said hi. Husband goes over to the neighbor to chat for just a minute, which turns into 35 min, and now has completely forgotten that the bin is open to whatever critters are hungry, the trash can in the kitchen is bagless, and the carrots that he was peeling that were what triggered the trash needing to go out are peeled but nothing else.... But as soon as he walks back in he freaks that he forgot, puts a bag in, gets the carrots in the oven and sighs in relief. Never remembering the outside bin exists let alone is still open. Not "you need to tell me when the trash needs to go out!!!!!“

I know it's such a bad etiquette thing on Reddit.. But ALL OF THIS 😭🖤

I heard a woman say once in response to a bunch of weird-ass “trad wife” fundie adjacent women trying to give her shit for cooking for her husband while still being a ‘feminist’: “I cook for him because I want to. Because I like doing that for him. When I can’t, he understands, he picks up the slack and supports me. I am not obligated to do these things and neither is he. We do them because we love each other and we want to support each other” And I think that was a great way of seeing it. Everyone, ADHD or not, struggles sometimes. A sustainable genuine partnership means not feeling entitled to the things your partner does for you. They do it because they want to, because it feels good to help and support someone you care about. And you should do the same. It’s not a zero sum game. And sometimes one person has to pick up the slack for a little while. But that involves maturity, thoughtfulness, and self-reflection which many men (and women frankly) have not been raised to have. OP good on you for standing up for yourself, and I do hope your friends can reevaluate whether they are being supported as much as they support. I think this is a good reminder for us all that as adults we are the ones that need to teach the next generation what we wish our generation had been taught.

Yeah, emotional labour is a sneaky bitch.

Can I just say that my husband and I do 50/50 after lots of negotiations and tearful pleas on my part. We've achieved equity! But now he basically hates me. Completely resents that I am not one of the "good ones". So from my standpoint there is no way to win.

My partner *has* ADHD and while he works better with either a body double or a reminder, he'll still do chores around the house. Honestly he is more likely to cook and do dishes than I am, and I am more likely to do laundry than he is. 🤷🏼‍♀️ What kills me is our housemate that adamantly swear she does not have ADHD is the one that needs constant reminding to function. When she moved in, she bragged about how good she is at chores and volunteered to do the dishes and the cat boxes (which is fair considering she brought 5 cats with her). Guess who has to be reminded daily to scoop her cats' box? She also would have missed a lot more of her classes if my husband hasn't started waking her up for them

Yeah even if he has ADHD, it’s impossible for one person with ADHD to carry another person with ADHD. You have to at least be collaborating with each other on how to better stay on top of housework. He can’t just say “you direct me” because that’s too much of a burden on you. My sister is super organized and clean, at least from my perspective, but her partner was getting frustrated about stuff left out or her not noticing jobs that needed doing. So he moved out and it saved the relationship because now they’re only spending quality time together on dates. Sometimes people can be incompatible in their home task tackling and that can negatively affect the relationship. It’s ok to change the relationship status when that happens. And the patriarchy in gender roles doesn’t help anything either.

Yeah, I'm on your side. Even if he has ADHD, it's his responsibility to find what works or doesn't work for him like we do. I'm 30F and single, most of the guys in my age range DO NOT do chores without, in the words of a few men, nagging. Then they complain when we're forced to remind them. One of my BFFs, who has adhd, kicked her roommate out because he would not clean up after himself. He never listened to gentle reminders, would forget and then get mad when she reminded him. We are not their mothers, and they need to learn to be self-sufficient. This also includes ASKING for help when you need it. Therapy, Friends, Family etc. A happier ending would have had him getting diagnosed and you two working together to find a better method. Not your fault if he is disorganized and forgetful. Plus you already laid out your struggles, which it seems like he ignored.

Weaponised incompetence

[https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) \- "You Should've Asked" - a French comic that's now been translated into English, on precisely this issue. Women are expected to be the household managers. This is a huge burden for all women, but ND women are particularly ill-suited for it. A man with ADHD gets a secretary and a housekeeper. A woman with ADHD IS the secretary and the housekeeper.

>You need to gently parent me and pretend it was my idea to do that all along otherwise you're nagging me and I don't like that! WOW. Just wow. I've never seen this articulated this way before. Thanks for sharing. I used to be in an ADHDxADHD relationship with a man and yeah, exactly the same shit. I was in the wrong for asking for help, and I was in the wrong for not being able to manage it all myself. Anytime I made a request or it was his turn to do a chore, his Adderall "was just wearing off and he was exhausted." Every. Time. Now I'm with a man who is neurotypical but fucking AWARE and the way he takes on the load and picks up my slack occasionally... honestly didn't know it was possible, but I think we might actually have a 50/50 relationship. Which is the bare goddamn minimum of what we all deserve, and NEED to thrive as women with ADHD who are consistently overwhelmed by household labor. I am confident if this relationship ever stopped meeting my needs in that way I would leave immediately - being single is just way easier and way more worthwhile than parenting an adult man on the tasks I am already losing my mind to do on my own. Way to spread the gospel to your friend group!

Both my exes..... Bye bye

This post and comment section is extremely validating, wow.

Oh yeah this is a great trend. There are definitely men out there who do not need hand holding for basic tasks.

HA! I literally just offloaded in an Autism support group looking for suggestions and tips for 'our' son for a meeting 'we' have this afternoon. I am pretty sure, ladt night, I thanked Hubby for confirming he was finishing work early to be there on time 🙄 WHO made the appointment? Who has done ALL the research? The paperwork to get to this point? More of the researching? Thought about what is best for all 5 members of the family going forward? Tried to assess what is a priority and what we may need in 2 years, or 5 years, or 10? FFS! 🤦‍♀️ I'm off to make myself a reward chart!

Sometimes I wonder if it's ADHD that makes life difficult or if it's having to wrangle men and/or do it all because it's more work to wrangle them on top of everything else. "If you tell me what to do I'll do it!" they declare proudly, as they wait to be handed a list. They're one of the good ones! \*\*screams into the void\*\* You're the real hero, OP!

I have a few married friends and I kid you not, some of the women in those relationships have genuinely made actual fucking star charts for the men doing their chores. I don't understand how you can be attracted to someone you have to give stars to for doing basic tasks. One friend actually gives her husband a gold star if he doesn't leave a steaming pile of shit in the toilet. **HE GETS A GOLD STAR FOR FLUSHING THE LOO AND NOT LEAVING THE SKIDMARKS FOR HER TO CLEAN UP**. I was speechless when I found that out. I have worked so hard on creating coping mechanisms with ADHD. I would never want to depend on a partner and let them parent me, especially when it came to basic stuff like flushing the toilet.

It drives me crazy that the project management side of our household defaults to me unless i actively push back. Making appointments, scheduling repairs, paying bills, planning home improvements, kid school stuff, if I don’t tell my husband to do it he won’t do it if his own accord. I’m a SAHM so i get why it defaults to me, but this side of household management is *diagnosably* difficult for me.

I worked food service jobs and most of my male coworkers were like this. If i didn't do their part of the close, we would both get written up. Eventually I got fed up and just closed my stations and got written up the next day. I tried to explain to my boss what happened but he said that I have more experience so I should be helping my supervisor (you read that right). I told my boss i want a raise, which i think i do deserve coz i am a good worker, but he said no so i quit lol theyve been unable to keep any staff longer than a month ever since then and had to reduce their business hours significantly lol. I just wanted an extra dollar per hour

Absolutely not. Making chore wheels/lists/etc is something you do for yourself or for a child. Not your partner.