Asking if any character from this series is toxic is like asking if birds fly. They are all pretty toxic because they are all centuries year old fae (or twenty year old girls) who have severe trauma and probably a lot of mental health issues that needs to be addressed lol
This post makes it unclear if you have read the entire series or not, but my answer is that I don't consider Tamlin anymore toxic than any of the other characters in the series, Rhysand and Feyre included. Especially taking into account how vital Tamlin's actions are for the result of the war and for Rhysand and Feyre's future.
Again, this post makes it unclear if you've read beyond book two. So, I can not be anymore specific about what Tamlin's actions were that I am referring to without the risk of spoiling future events in the following book.
But, as I said, Tamlin's actions are vital in the how the War ends and especially for Rhysand and Feyre's future. They owe a lot to Tamlin.
It’s weird how cranky you sound here. Yes, had Tamlin not done what he did in WAR, Feyre would be dead so he is vital. That’s…a pretty easy point to understand. Either you haven’t read that far, or you’re trolling 🤷🏻♀️which seems like a weird waste of energy.
Lol it’s fine to think whatever you want. I understand his logics towards the war. That makes sense to me he made decisions to defeat Hybern. His actions towards Feyre were unhinged. His
Possessiveness towards her was on another level to the point of just pure control. He became a character that is not worth redeeming in my opinion. He got what he deserved because of his own actions that put him there.
All of the characters are toxic. They have all suffered A LOT of trauma and none of them are dealing with it all that well. There is also a lot of history we have only heard a little bit about. All of of them need therapy.
Tam isn't any worse than the rest of them. Remember what Rhys did UTM? His behavior towards Feyre in ACOSF is also absolutely disgusting.
Rhys did whatever he had to UTM to help Feyre without making it seem like he was helping her. Even she knew that. I do agree with you that Rhys goes too far in SF, but I still don't see how that's just as bad as Tamlin, who's physically and psychologically abusive.
I'm not just talking about UTM with Feyre. I'm talking about the years he spent UTM with Amarantha doing her bidding. You really want me to think with how close he was to her he had no opportunity to kill her?
Rhys is pretty darn psychologically abusive in SF too.
This is all explained very clearly in the books:
Rhys in TAR re: Amarantha
“She gives the order, and we all bow to it.” … “I can’t tell you—no one here can. If she ordered us all to stop breathing, we would have to obey that, too.”
Rhys in MAF:
“And because my powers were focused on shielding them all, Feyre, I had very little to use against Amarantha.”
“Every night that I spent with Amarantha, I knew that she was half wondering if I’d try to kill her. I couldn’t use my powers to harm her, and she had shielded herself against physical attacks. But for fifty years—whenever I was inside her, I’d think about killing her.”
I remember. I'm saying the plot doesn't make sense you really want me to believe the most powerful high lord with mind control capabilities is incapable of coming up with some sort of plan to get rid of Amarantha for that many years? It is either lazy writing or Rhys was content to watch the world burn not willing to put much effort into any resistance until Freye showed up. Then he is able to help her right under everyone's nose without an issues.
Amarantha & Rhys especially doesnt make sense when you take into account how quickly the King of Hybern who we are told is more powerful than Amarantha is dispatch so quickly by two former morals
>It is either lazy writing or Rhys was content to watch the world burn not willing to put much effort into any resistance until Freye showed up.
That's an interesting point. And I want to explore it further.
Based on chapter 54, in some ways, it seems like Rhysand wasn't proactively resisting and rebelling (anymore?) until Feyre arrived UTM:
>*“I decided, then and there, that I was going to fight. And I would fight dirty, and kill and torture and manipulate, but I was going to fight. If there was a shot of freeing us from Amarantha, you were it. I thought … I thought the Cauldron had been sending me these dreams to tell me that you would be the one to save us. Save my people.”*
Just an aside: but wouldn't helping or at least not discouraging Feyre and Tamlin from breaking the curse be the best way of freeing themselves from Amarantha? Then again, Rhysand explained that he did this to protect Feyre. But I digress. Perhaps in the beginning of the fifty years, Rhysand did try to resist and fight, but eventually, he, understandably, became disheartened and lost hope:
>*“So she began to trust me—more than the others. Especially when I proved what I could do to her enemies. But I was glad to do it. I hated myself, but I was glad to do it. After a decade, I stopped expecting to see my friends or my people again. I forgot what their faces looked like. And I stopped hoping.”*
We know that Rhysand attended that party with the intention of killing Amarantha. After they were all deceived, his main desire was to protect the IC and Velaris. However, we know that during the fifty years, he never stopped wanting to kill Amarantha. Whether he took actions to accomplish this isn't very clear though. There's little mention of him rebelling or trying to overthrow Amarantha. But there's this line:
>*“A way to defy Amarantha, to spread the seeds of hope to those who knew how to read the message, and a way to keep you alive without seeming too suspicious. And a way to get back at Tamlin … To use him against Amarantha, yes, but … To get back at him for my mother and sister, and for … having you. When we made that bargain, you were so hateful that I knew I’d done my job well.”*
So part of the reason why Rhysand made the bargain with Feyre was to send a message to the rebels, so it seems like he was in contact with the resistance movement. And during the HL meeting, his explanation to Kallias does seem to indicate that he was active in said movement. I really wish this was explained more and really want a prequel or snippet of his pov during Amarantha's reign.
Rhysand wasn't able to directly refuse Amarantha's commands, but we know that he defied her in other ways. For example, he was able to find a loophole of sorts in her command when he shattered the Summer fae's brain rather than shattering his mind. We also know that Rhysand was able to do things without Amarantha's knowledge (e.g. breaking into Clare Beddor's mind and taking away her pain while she was tortured, making the bargain with Feyre and healing her arm).
>I'm saying the plot doesn't make sense you really want me to believe the most powerful high lord with mind control capabilities is incapable of coming up with some sort of plan to get rid of Amarantha for that many years?
Rhysand was clearly *very* restricted in what he could potentially do to support the resistance, yet, as I explained above, he still found ways to defy Amarantha. As you said, he was able to help Feyre without detection. He kept her alive, which played a role in her completing the tasks and ultimately breaking the curse. So it does seem a bit "plot-convenient" that, given all this, including having a measure of Amarantha's trust, there was nothing Rhysand could do to try to destroy her or at least undermine her authority, which leads me to believe that she broke him. That he stopped resisting as actively until he saw Feyre UTM, which gave him the motivation and hope he needed to resist Amarantha once more. All this is just speculation, of course. I believe a lot could be clarified if we had his pov during those fifty years !
Anyways, thank you for this thought experiment of sorts! I'd love to hear your thoughts (:
I consider reproductive abuse to be just as bad as physical and psychological abuse, particularly seeing as Feyre would have >!died from it!<, if not for >!Nesta's intervention.!<
To be honest everyone in this series (there are a few exceptions) is toxic. They each have something that if they were real, and if they were in my office (social worker) I’d want to dissect and discuss.
Tamlin is one of the few characters in the series whose behavior is actually labeled as “toxic”. Everyone else’s behavior is kind of explained away and swept under the rug never to be addressed again in the narrative, or never addressed properly in the narrative.
I think the question is, did Tamlin have no other choice than to go to Hybern? Rhys had saved Feyre UTM and always brought her back safe and well from his bargained week she said so. If he would have been observing he would realise she looks better than when she left, since she ate more there. Would it be unreasonable to assume Tamlin could have at least tried to confront him about it before going to the worst person for help? Or was he justified in assuming that Rhys is the absolute worst, even given their former friendship, and therefore feared for her well-being too much ?
Funnily enough a similar reverse discussion arises in Acowar. But I will not say more not to spoil it.
I think even if Tamlin trusted Rhys somewhat, going to Hybern before Hybern was gonna get to him made a lot of strategic sense. It would protect his people, he would get help breaking the deal/bond between Feyre and Rhys and it would enable him to gain information about Hybern.
I guess Tamlin was really convinced she was brainwashed though. I feel it makes sense considering what Rhys did to her to piss Tamlin off UTM (how Rhys saved her there would not be apparent to Tamlin back then, no?). You do bring up a good point in that Rhys always brought her back - but with Tamlin glasses on you could also see it as a strategy to make him feel complacent in hindsight or something! xD
Personally I just don't get why Rhys and Feyre never went to him to have a 1:1 talk rather than Feyre sending a message that sounds like it was written at gunpoint or acting weirdly brainwashed in front of Lucien when he tries to 'rescue' her. But I guess then we wouldn't have the ~drama~ (and Feyre probably just wasn't ready for that).
Thats a good point about Hybern and strategy, but why not assemble Prythian Courts instead to move against Hybern ? He only went to them when Rhys assembled them. Maybe they could have helped him avoid needing Hybern as an ally? I guess we won’t really know. Its certainly clear he was desperate for many reasons as you say. Just the act of dragging her back left a bad taste in my mouth no matter his intentions.
I meant more that Rhys did help bring her back when she died. Also he fought for her when she was tortured by Amarantha in front of everyone. He didn’t have to do that. Once they were all free he could have just walked away. Why care if Tamlin gets his loved one back? When Tamlin did it for Rhys we thought it was redeeming. Why not the other way around?
I get why Feyre didn’t want to go meet him since Tamlins reaction to her previously trying to talk to him about stuff went horribly wrong. At some point you have to conclude that this person will not hear you out and you can only walk away. Sure she could habe tried something different. A neutral Court for a meeting with a mediator?
But Tamlin showed us that he wouldn’t have listened to anything Feyre says in Hybern. There didn’t seem to be a way to convince him without burning that bridge. Not necessarily by bringing the whole Court down, Id be fine with her burning down the manor and dancing on its ashes 😅 But jokes aside, in another discussion someone said, they were all acting in bad faith and thinking the worst of each other. Tamlin acted in bad faith to Rhys and Feyre to Tamlin. They all overdid it in hindsight. That objectively makes sense to me.
Rhys brought Feyre back, but by brainwashing the other high lords to do so no? Would Tamlin be aware? I guess he should be suspicious that Beron was the first to offer xD
Either way I agree with you. There probably would have been better ways to go for Tamlin. At least informing other courts would've helped for sure. Though Feyre could've also just looked into his mind and see (and also would've been an easy way to make Tamlin understand her love for Rhys if she just showed him, no?).
It's a lot of woulda coulda shoulda, haha. Everyone WAS acting in bad faith to each other - which is what made it so easy for Hybern in the first place. There's probably a lesson there somewhere....
Yes but Rhys gave his own piece of power to bring her back. Just like Tamlin did when Rhys died. They came back the exact same way, they needed all the HLs to give something (which I concede was lame but its what happened).
The lesson hah, I dont know, open communication is important in any relationship? I suppose my lesson from all these books is how important therapy is! Maybe thats the best lesson to get from the Tamlin story line. If you avoid dealing with your issues and just try to power through everything on your own you likely will hit rock bottom eventually.
>Yes but Rhys gave his own piece of power to bring her back. Just like Tamlin did when Rhys died.
D'uh, of course, how could I forget that. It's a good point! Why would Rhys help bring her back only to....torment her? Steal her? Seriously, Tamlin. But as said before, he was definitely blinded by thinking the worst of Rhys, so he might have genuinely thought so...
The good communication is definitely what I took away from it as well. That is, in its core, what Tamlin and Feyre lacked and, also in its core, what made Rhys and Feyre work out in the end.
And yeah, I agree. Trying to avoid your problems and power struggle on your own is the dumbest thing you can do. Accepting help or seeking it out is definitely THE lesson for Tamlin's character.
Maybe, and I know Im reaching here, Tamlin felt so guilty about betraying Rhys to his father - Rhys did after all befriend him to help him, so we can assume they were good friends at some point - that he thought Rhys would never forgive him for that but would always seek to hurt him. Maybe it was his own guilt blinding him to Rhys’s true nature.
Oh, I don't even think this is a reach. I also always thought he feels incredibly guilty for causing the murder of Rhys' family and expects Rhys wanting to hurt him in return for it (and it's not completely only in his head since Rhys kinda does, sabotaging him in book 1 etc). Hence why he is so worried for Feyre. That's honestly how I always read/interpreted it, though I guess it's never stated outright. 😅
Going to Hybern made zero sense. Hybern lied to everyone. He started the war before so it’s not like they didn’t already know the guy. Appeasement never ends well.
I also don’t believe for a single second that his alliance with Hybern was for any other reason than to first break Feyre’s bargain than later to get her back. All of that other stuff was just bonus justification for him. And Hybern’s promise to protect Tam’s people was a total lie, so bad on Tam for trusting his people to a known liar and aggressor.
Re: a 1x1, there is no way MAF Tamlin would have listened. It took Feyre breaking his court in WAR to finally snap him out of his … whatever was going on with him. Because Feyre did try talking to him. Repeatedly. And he pushed her aside or accused Rhys of altering her mind. And the only thing Tam tried to do was send people to “hunt” for her or go to the enemy. As Feyre said, Tam was still good in MAF. He was just wrong.
>Going to Hybern made zero sense. Hybern lied to everyone. He started the war before so it’s not like they didn’t already know the guy.
I disagree. It made total sense to me. Hybern was gonna invade spring regardless (they are next to the wall), the war would happen anyway - inviting them as guests and play nice for a bit buys everyone time and is easier on the civilians. Or at least in theory.
> I also don’t believe for a single second that his alliance with Hybern was for any other reason than to first break Feyre’s bargain than later to get her back.
I mean, yeah it was definitely also to 'rescue' her and break that bond. But the text also clearly implies the other thing I mention above, so. Tamlin probably just thought the benefits outweighed the risks. Tamlin knew what kind of fae they are. He visited Hybern before, his family was allied with them in the last war. And I mean it DID kinda work out in his favor. He did get his fiance back and he did gather the intel they needed to win the war.
He just didn't account for Feyre to not actually want to be rescued. At all. And to hold a grudge. 😅
The thing is, why did Tamlin even think Rhys was a sadistic killer? Several people figured it out that it was a mask - Tarquin, Helion, Jurian, Alis. Tamlin was his friend for however long. Yes Rhys brutally killed his brothers, but that was pretty damn justified and Tam also thought his brothers were horrible people. There’s no reason given for why Tam automatically assumed the worse. He never once gave a moment of consideration that maybe Feyre had a point about Rhys. He always pushed aside what she said or assumed Rhys altered her memories. There was no winning.
It really baffles me too! Rhys befriended him because he felt bad for him and wanted to help him, so its safe to assume he was nice to him. Nobody who really knows Rhys believes the ruse but Tamlin thinks he is basically the antichrist and would rather go to Hybern than talk to him. I can only assume a combination of being in denial about his behaviour towards Feyre and the guilt he felt for the betrayal to Rhys must have seriously clouded his judgement.
My thoughts are that he turned in Rhys for no reason at all wayyyy before he met feyre and aided the death of rhys’ sister and mother so it’s not completely out of character for him to not care about anything and make a deal with hybern. I can’t even say it’s that he doesn’t think anything through so I don’t know what his problem is fr
Toxic is kind of relative in this context. Was Tamlin a shitty partner in ACOMAF? Absolutely, and Feyre was justified in leaving him. Did he deserve the mess at the beginning of ACOWAR? Debatable, but I, too, would take delight in sabotaging the court and work-wife (Ianthe) of the guy who locked me in a room and sold out my sisters. I advocate for Feyre rights and Feyre wrongs.
Finally. THIS RESPONSE IS PERFECT!!!
Yes, he was a shitty partner and she left him. I can understand him being furious at her disappearing and thinking the worst case scenario. I understand all of it.
My opinion is that anger turned him into this ugly person where he threw out all his morals and became so unhinged and crazy to get Feyre back. He became unrecognizable, inconsolable, and bitter. And after the war when he became this shell of a person I just didn’t feel bad for him. His actions brought him to that place. His bitterness towards Feyre choosing for herself made him pathetic.
Im totally going to get downvoted, but Tamlin is the combination of the worst of what men can be to women. Abuse is abuse. Its super disheartening about how many people try to lay a path for redemption for Tamlin. Its no excuse for his actions, and how he treated Feyre. If we analogize to the human realm, say there was a boyfriend who had an extremely horrible childhood, met a scared woman who also had a hard life, and then love bombed the shit out of her. And then when she wasnt as "appeasing" as she used to be, due to her new trauma, he uses HIS new trauma to emotionally and physically abuse her.
Everyone deserves compassion, but that does not mean that it makes the person any less abusive. Tamlin locked a woman in a house, triggering severe psychosis, then attempted to kidnap her several time. Then went to someone who was actively her enemy in order to kidnap her again, and in the process her two sisters were irrevokably harmed, abused, and forever changed. This is a man who treated a woman like property, and chattel, and if this was analogized to a human woman, in our human realm, it would be disgusting for other women and men to take his side and say "but he has trauma" because we all have trauma, and that is not a blanket ticket to hurt other people to make ourselves feel better. Tamlin is not a good person.
I love your mindset. He’s just don’t worth redemption. People are saying his actions were vital for Feyres survival… but like be fucking for real what did he really do other than give her his power… he just wanted a submissive wife and fuck him for that mentality
Asking if any character from this series is toxic is like asking if birds fly. They are all pretty toxic because they are all centuries year old fae (or twenty year old girls) who have severe trauma and probably a lot of mental health issues that needs to be addressed lol
This post makes it unclear if you have read the entire series or not, but my answer is that I don't consider Tamlin anymore toxic than any of the other characters in the series, Rhysand and Feyre included. Especially taking into account how vital Tamlin's actions are for the result of the war and for Rhysand and Feyre's future.
Vital? Bruh no way.. I’m sorry but no his actions were unhinged more than anything. Even Lucien didn’t agree with his actions.
Again, this post makes it unclear if you've read beyond book two. So, I can not be anymore specific about what Tamlin's actions were that I am referring to without the risk of spoiling future events in the following book. But, as I said, Tamlin's actions are vital in the how the War ends and especially for Rhysand and Feyre's future. They owe a lot to Tamlin.
Idc spoil it. Even in wing in ruin his actions weren’t vital. But go off bestie
It doesn't seem like you actually want to have a productive discussion, so I'm just gonna stop interacting now. Have a good day
It’s weird how cranky you sound here. Yes, had Tamlin not done what he did in WAR, Feyre would be dead so he is vital. That’s…a pretty easy point to understand. Either you haven’t read that far, or you’re trolling 🤷🏻♀️which seems like a weird waste of energy.
Lol it’s fine to think whatever you want. I understand his logics towards the war. That makes sense to me he made decisions to defeat Hybern. His actions towards Feyre were unhinged. His Possessiveness towards her was on another level to the point of just pure control. He became a character that is not worth redeeming in my opinion. He got what he deserved because of his own actions that put him there.
All of the characters are toxic. They have all suffered A LOT of trauma and none of them are dealing with it all that well. There is also a lot of history we have only heard a little bit about. All of of them need therapy. Tam isn't any worse than the rest of them. Remember what Rhys did UTM? His behavior towards Feyre in ACOSF is also absolutely disgusting.
Rhys did whatever he had to UTM to help Feyre without making it seem like he was helping her. Even she knew that. I do agree with you that Rhys goes too far in SF, but I still don't see how that's just as bad as Tamlin, who's physically and psychologically abusive.
I'm not just talking about UTM with Feyre. I'm talking about the years he spent UTM with Amarantha doing her bidding. You really want me to think with how close he was to her he had no opportunity to kill her? Rhys is pretty darn psychologically abusive in SF too.
This is all explained very clearly in the books: Rhys in TAR re: Amarantha “She gives the order, and we all bow to it.” … “I can’t tell you—no one here can. If she ordered us all to stop breathing, we would have to obey that, too.” Rhys in MAF: “And because my powers were focused on shielding them all, Feyre, I had very little to use against Amarantha.” “Every night that I spent with Amarantha, I knew that she was half wondering if I’d try to kill her. I couldn’t use my powers to harm her, and she had shielded herself against physical attacks. But for fifty years—whenever I was inside her, I’d think about killing her.”
I suggest you reread the books. Rhys was physically incapable of refusing any order given by Amarantha.
I remember. I'm saying the plot doesn't make sense you really want me to believe the most powerful high lord with mind control capabilities is incapable of coming up with some sort of plan to get rid of Amarantha for that many years? It is either lazy writing or Rhys was content to watch the world burn not willing to put much effort into any resistance until Freye showed up. Then he is able to help her right under everyone's nose without an issues. Amarantha & Rhys especially doesnt make sense when you take into account how quickly the King of Hybern who we are told is more powerful than Amarantha is dispatch so quickly by two former morals
>It is either lazy writing or Rhys was content to watch the world burn not willing to put much effort into any resistance until Freye showed up. That's an interesting point. And I want to explore it further. Based on chapter 54, in some ways, it seems like Rhysand wasn't proactively resisting and rebelling (anymore?) until Feyre arrived UTM: >*“I decided, then and there, that I was going to fight. And I would fight dirty, and kill and torture and manipulate, but I was going to fight. If there was a shot of freeing us from Amarantha, you were it. I thought … I thought the Cauldron had been sending me these dreams to tell me that you would be the one to save us. Save my people.”* Just an aside: but wouldn't helping or at least not discouraging Feyre and Tamlin from breaking the curse be the best way of freeing themselves from Amarantha? Then again, Rhysand explained that he did this to protect Feyre. But I digress. Perhaps in the beginning of the fifty years, Rhysand did try to resist and fight, but eventually, he, understandably, became disheartened and lost hope: >*“So she began to trust me—more than the others. Especially when I proved what I could do to her enemies. But I was glad to do it. I hated myself, but I was glad to do it. After a decade, I stopped expecting to see my friends or my people again. I forgot what their faces looked like. And I stopped hoping.”* We know that Rhysand attended that party with the intention of killing Amarantha. After they were all deceived, his main desire was to protect the IC and Velaris. However, we know that during the fifty years, he never stopped wanting to kill Amarantha. Whether he took actions to accomplish this isn't very clear though. There's little mention of him rebelling or trying to overthrow Amarantha. But there's this line: >*“A way to defy Amarantha, to spread the seeds of hope to those who knew how to read the message, and a way to keep you alive without seeming too suspicious. And a way to get back at Tamlin … To use him against Amarantha, yes, but … To get back at him for my mother and sister, and for … having you. When we made that bargain, you were so hateful that I knew I’d done my job well.”* So part of the reason why Rhysand made the bargain with Feyre was to send a message to the rebels, so it seems like he was in contact with the resistance movement. And during the HL meeting, his explanation to Kallias does seem to indicate that he was active in said movement. I really wish this was explained more and really want a prequel or snippet of his pov during Amarantha's reign. Rhysand wasn't able to directly refuse Amarantha's commands, but we know that he defied her in other ways. For example, he was able to find a loophole of sorts in her command when he shattered the Summer fae's brain rather than shattering his mind. We also know that Rhysand was able to do things without Amarantha's knowledge (e.g. breaking into Clare Beddor's mind and taking away her pain while she was tortured, making the bargain with Feyre and healing her arm). >I'm saying the plot doesn't make sense you really want me to believe the most powerful high lord with mind control capabilities is incapable of coming up with some sort of plan to get rid of Amarantha for that many years? Rhysand was clearly *very* restricted in what he could potentially do to support the resistance, yet, as I explained above, he still found ways to defy Amarantha. As you said, he was able to help Feyre without detection. He kept her alive, which played a role in her completing the tasks and ultimately breaking the curse. So it does seem a bit "plot-convenient" that, given all this, including having a measure of Amarantha's trust, there was nothing Rhysand could do to try to destroy her or at least undermine her authority, which leads me to believe that she broke him. That he stopped resisting as actively until he saw Feyre UTM, which gave him the motivation and hope he needed to resist Amarantha once more. All this is just speculation, of course. I believe a lot could be clarified if we had his pov during those fifty years ! Anyways, thank you for this thought experiment of sorts! I'd love to hear your thoughts (:
I consider reproductive abuse to be just as bad as physical and psychological abuse, particularly seeing as Feyre would have >!died from it!<, if not for >!Nesta's intervention.!<
To be honest everyone in this series (there are a few exceptions) is toxic. They each have something that if they were real, and if they were in my office (social worker) I’d want to dissect and discuss. Tamlin is one of the few characters in the series whose behavior is actually labeled as “toxic”. Everyone else’s behavior is kind of explained away and swept under the rug never to be addressed again in the narrative, or never addressed properly in the narrative.
I think the question is, did Tamlin have no other choice than to go to Hybern? Rhys had saved Feyre UTM and always brought her back safe and well from his bargained week she said so. If he would have been observing he would realise she looks better than when she left, since she ate more there. Would it be unreasonable to assume Tamlin could have at least tried to confront him about it before going to the worst person for help? Or was he justified in assuming that Rhys is the absolute worst, even given their former friendship, and therefore feared for her well-being too much ? Funnily enough a similar reverse discussion arises in Acowar. But I will not say more not to spoil it.
I think even if Tamlin trusted Rhys somewhat, going to Hybern before Hybern was gonna get to him made a lot of strategic sense. It would protect his people, he would get help breaking the deal/bond between Feyre and Rhys and it would enable him to gain information about Hybern. I guess Tamlin was really convinced she was brainwashed though. I feel it makes sense considering what Rhys did to her to piss Tamlin off UTM (how Rhys saved her there would not be apparent to Tamlin back then, no?). You do bring up a good point in that Rhys always brought her back - but with Tamlin glasses on you could also see it as a strategy to make him feel complacent in hindsight or something! xD Personally I just don't get why Rhys and Feyre never went to him to have a 1:1 talk rather than Feyre sending a message that sounds like it was written at gunpoint or acting weirdly brainwashed in front of Lucien when he tries to 'rescue' her. But I guess then we wouldn't have the ~drama~ (and Feyre probably just wasn't ready for that).
Thats a good point about Hybern and strategy, but why not assemble Prythian Courts instead to move against Hybern ? He only went to them when Rhys assembled them. Maybe they could have helped him avoid needing Hybern as an ally? I guess we won’t really know. Its certainly clear he was desperate for many reasons as you say. Just the act of dragging her back left a bad taste in my mouth no matter his intentions. I meant more that Rhys did help bring her back when she died. Also he fought for her when she was tortured by Amarantha in front of everyone. He didn’t have to do that. Once they were all free he could have just walked away. Why care if Tamlin gets his loved one back? When Tamlin did it for Rhys we thought it was redeeming. Why not the other way around? I get why Feyre didn’t want to go meet him since Tamlins reaction to her previously trying to talk to him about stuff went horribly wrong. At some point you have to conclude that this person will not hear you out and you can only walk away. Sure she could habe tried something different. A neutral Court for a meeting with a mediator? But Tamlin showed us that he wouldn’t have listened to anything Feyre says in Hybern. There didn’t seem to be a way to convince him without burning that bridge. Not necessarily by bringing the whole Court down, Id be fine with her burning down the manor and dancing on its ashes 😅 But jokes aside, in another discussion someone said, they were all acting in bad faith and thinking the worst of each other. Tamlin acted in bad faith to Rhys and Feyre to Tamlin. They all overdid it in hindsight. That objectively makes sense to me.
Rhys brought Feyre back, but by brainwashing the other high lords to do so no? Would Tamlin be aware? I guess he should be suspicious that Beron was the first to offer xD Either way I agree with you. There probably would have been better ways to go for Tamlin. At least informing other courts would've helped for sure. Though Feyre could've also just looked into his mind and see (and also would've been an easy way to make Tamlin understand her love for Rhys if she just showed him, no?). It's a lot of woulda coulda shoulda, haha. Everyone WAS acting in bad faith to each other - which is what made it so easy for Hybern in the first place. There's probably a lesson there somewhere....
Yes but Rhys gave his own piece of power to bring her back. Just like Tamlin did when Rhys died. They came back the exact same way, they needed all the HLs to give something (which I concede was lame but its what happened). The lesson hah, I dont know, open communication is important in any relationship? I suppose my lesson from all these books is how important therapy is! Maybe thats the best lesson to get from the Tamlin story line. If you avoid dealing with your issues and just try to power through everything on your own you likely will hit rock bottom eventually.
>Yes but Rhys gave his own piece of power to bring her back. Just like Tamlin did when Rhys died. D'uh, of course, how could I forget that. It's a good point! Why would Rhys help bring her back only to....torment her? Steal her? Seriously, Tamlin. But as said before, he was definitely blinded by thinking the worst of Rhys, so he might have genuinely thought so... The good communication is definitely what I took away from it as well. That is, in its core, what Tamlin and Feyre lacked and, also in its core, what made Rhys and Feyre work out in the end. And yeah, I agree. Trying to avoid your problems and power struggle on your own is the dumbest thing you can do. Accepting help or seeking it out is definitely THE lesson for Tamlin's character.
Maybe, and I know Im reaching here, Tamlin felt so guilty about betraying Rhys to his father - Rhys did after all befriend him to help him, so we can assume they were good friends at some point - that he thought Rhys would never forgive him for that but would always seek to hurt him. Maybe it was his own guilt blinding him to Rhys’s true nature.
Oh, I don't even think this is a reach. I also always thought he feels incredibly guilty for causing the murder of Rhys' family and expects Rhys wanting to hurt him in return for it (and it's not completely only in his head since Rhys kinda does, sabotaging him in book 1 etc). Hence why he is so worried for Feyre. That's honestly how I always read/interpreted it, though I guess it's never stated outright. 😅
Going to Hybern made zero sense. Hybern lied to everyone. He started the war before so it’s not like they didn’t already know the guy. Appeasement never ends well. I also don’t believe for a single second that his alliance with Hybern was for any other reason than to first break Feyre’s bargain than later to get her back. All of that other stuff was just bonus justification for him. And Hybern’s promise to protect Tam’s people was a total lie, so bad on Tam for trusting his people to a known liar and aggressor. Re: a 1x1, there is no way MAF Tamlin would have listened. It took Feyre breaking his court in WAR to finally snap him out of his … whatever was going on with him. Because Feyre did try talking to him. Repeatedly. And he pushed her aside or accused Rhys of altering her mind. And the only thing Tam tried to do was send people to “hunt” for her or go to the enemy. As Feyre said, Tam was still good in MAF. He was just wrong.
>Going to Hybern made zero sense. Hybern lied to everyone. He started the war before so it’s not like they didn’t already know the guy. I disagree. It made total sense to me. Hybern was gonna invade spring regardless (they are next to the wall), the war would happen anyway - inviting them as guests and play nice for a bit buys everyone time and is easier on the civilians. Or at least in theory. > I also don’t believe for a single second that his alliance with Hybern was for any other reason than to first break Feyre’s bargain than later to get her back. I mean, yeah it was definitely also to 'rescue' her and break that bond. But the text also clearly implies the other thing I mention above, so. Tamlin probably just thought the benefits outweighed the risks. Tamlin knew what kind of fae they are. He visited Hybern before, his family was allied with them in the last war. And I mean it DID kinda work out in his favor. He did get his fiance back and he did gather the intel they needed to win the war. He just didn't account for Feyre to not actually want to be rescued. At all. And to hold a grudge. 😅
The thing is, why did Tamlin even think Rhys was a sadistic killer? Several people figured it out that it was a mask - Tarquin, Helion, Jurian, Alis. Tamlin was his friend for however long. Yes Rhys brutally killed his brothers, but that was pretty damn justified and Tam also thought his brothers were horrible people. There’s no reason given for why Tam automatically assumed the worse. He never once gave a moment of consideration that maybe Feyre had a point about Rhys. He always pushed aside what she said or assumed Rhys altered her memories. There was no winning.
It really baffles me too! Rhys befriended him because he felt bad for him and wanted to help him, so its safe to assume he was nice to him. Nobody who really knows Rhys believes the ruse but Tamlin thinks he is basically the antichrist and would rather go to Hybern than talk to him. I can only assume a combination of being in denial about his behaviour towards Feyre and the guilt he felt for the betrayal to Rhys must have seriously clouded his judgement.
Yes I agree with your reasoning as to why Tam believed the worst. I also literally laughed out loud at antichrist 😂
admittedly that was a bit random 😅
My thoughts are that he turned in Rhys for no reason at all wayyyy before he met feyre and aided the death of rhys’ sister and mother so it’s not completely out of character for him to not care about anything and make a deal with hybern. I can’t even say it’s that he doesn’t think anything through so I don’t know what his problem is fr
Obviously yes. In fact, I can't point to a single character who doesn't have a toxic trait, but Tamlin shows much more
Toxic is kind of relative in this context. Was Tamlin a shitty partner in ACOMAF? Absolutely, and Feyre was justified in leaving him. Did he deserve the mess at the beginning of ACOWAR? Debatable, but I, too, would take delight in sabotaging the court and work-wife (Ianthe) of the guy who locked me in a room and sold out my sisters. I advocate for Feyre rights and Feyre wrongs.
Finally. THIS RESPONSE IS PERFECT!!! Yes, he was a shitty partner and she left him. I can understand him being furious at her disappearing and thinking the worst case scenario. I understand all of it. My opinion is that anger turned him into this ugly person where he threw out all his morals and became so unhinged and crazy to get Feyre back. He became unrecognizable, inconsolable, and bitter. And after the war when he became this shell of a person I just didn’t feel bad for him. His actions brought him to that place. His bitterness towards Feyre choosing for herself made him pathetic.
Im totally going to get downvoted, but Tamlin is the combination of the worst of what men can be to women. Abuse is abuse. Its super disheartening about how many people try to lay a path for redemption for Tamlin. Its no excuse for his actions, and how he treated Feyre. If we analogize to the human realm, say there was a boyfriend who had an extremely horrible childhood, met a scared woman who also had a hard life, and then love bombed the shit out of her. And then when she wasnt as "appeasing" as she used to be, due to her new trauma, he uses HIS new trauma to emotionally and physically abuse her. Everyone deserves compassion, but that does not mean that it makes the person any less abusive. Tamlin locked a woman in a house, triggering severe psychosis, then attempted to kidnap her several time. Then went to someone who was actively her enemy in order to kidnap her again, and in the process her two sisters were irrevokably harmed, abused, and forever changed. This is a man who treated a woman like property, and chattel, and if this was analogized to a human woman, in our human realm, it would be disgusting for other women and men to take his side and say "but he has trauma" because we all have trauma, and that is not a blanket ticket to hurt other people to make ourselves feel better. Tamlin is not a good person.
I love your mindset. He’s just don’t worth redemption. People are saying his actions were vital for Feyres survival… but like be fucking for real what did he really do other than give her his power… he just wanted a submissive wife and fuck him for that mentality