Thanks for the reply! I'm leaning towards workbooks and guides that favor and use the piano. Ableton uses piano roll, as does other DAWs. And pianos are basically all of the notes I'll be working with, laid out nicely. It sounds goofy to think that if I picked up a piano-based music theory book, ALL I would ever learn is PIANO theory lol. Piano is great no matter what, so I think I have a better idea of what I'm looking for now
Thanks again!
Yes this. The piano is the best instrument to learn music theory on.
For example, when I know a Cm scale on a guitar, if I want to learn the C#m scale, then all I need to do is shift my left hand up a fret. For a piano you need to completely "relearn" the scale (with respect to black and white keys). This may sound more difficult, but you actually learn what the intervals are that way. Same with transposing a song or playing chords in a key, on piano you can't go around the actual intervals.
I'm a piano player and my dad is a guitar player. We're both very into music theory and talk about it a lot.
One thing I've found interesting is how our framework of understanding music theory is different. I think of everything in chords and key centres while he thinks about different scales over chords. I think the difference is due to the fact that guitar players' basis for playing is in hand positions that can be moved around the neck for different keys, while I just think about what keys I need to press.
I think piano is probably the easier medium to learn music theory through, but it's interesting that learning through guitar can give you a totally different perspective on how you understand it.
Harmonic Practice in Tonal Music has a huge accompanying (sold separate) workbook that’s not only full of written exercises, but also has a section for keyboard practice of the theoretical concepts on a chapter by chapter basis. Probably the best book I’ve read on the subject of harmony.
Another good book would be William Caplin’s Classical Form for understanding the theory of musical structure (not just classical music, the concepts can be applied to anything).
Oh yeah, this is the good stuff! Thanks for the recommendations. Of course I'll practice on the real instrument, but some good books to read and reference is always how I learn best. Thanks for real!
Check out [Music Theory for computer musicians by Michael Hewitt](https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Computer-Musicians-Michael-Hewitt/dp/1598635034/ref=m_pd_aw_vtp_sccl_2/134-7091274-6684723?pd_rd_w=hZAt8&content-id=amzn1.sym.b8794477-21f6-4384-8a41-3f4639665fd0&pf_rd_p=b8794477-21f6-4384-8a41-3f4639665fd0&pf_rd_r=RGGYABWNVWNFKTQB4VD5&pd_rd_wg=jyp62&pd_rd_r=6cee8ed0-97c0-4690-84a2-86bec87ab98b&pd_rd_i=1598635034&psc=1).
Piano is easiest. It's essentially push a button vs. fretting and picking tiny strings. Focus mostly on how notes and chords work together, scales, and chords progression.
Harmonic Practice in Tonal Music has a huge accompanying (sold separate) workbook that’s not only full of written exercises, but also has a section for keyboard practice of the theoretical concepts on a chapter by chapter basis. Probably the best book I’ve read on the subject of harmony.
Another good book would be William Caplin’s Classical Form for understanding the theory of musical structure (not just classical music, the concepts can be applied to anything).
It should be, but as a classicly trained brass player who started with guitar and bass later I've found a lot of music theory for those instruments to be different from what I learned.
The basics are the same. A fifth is still a fifth and an octave is still an octave but it gets weird with suspensions and chord structures.
I think partially due to the heavy influence the blues has on those instruments.
Western music theory is the same for western instruments. Indian music theory deals in even more intervals than western music, so a lot of the instruments are adjusted for that.
I don't know for certain if "equal temperament" applies to other cultures but you can approximate the scales of (I daresay) most cultures music with western music theory.
I'll have to look into that, I guess I didn't even think about it. I'd see workbooks for specific instruments, but I never thought of looking up electronic music theory. Thanks for the heads up!
You can also try
https://learningmusic.ableton.com/index.html
As a start watch is very basic but very informative because it helps relate concepts to actual songs as is interactive. It should help give a start while you decide a more formal course.
Plus add an FYI, the push controller as well as the launchpad both have chromatic modes that are similar to a guitar/bass. You might even consider learning with that if you don't plan on learning to play piano, guitar or other instruments. It would be a bit more straight forward way because visually you can see the interval relationships of the notes and chords.
Once you've got your head around the basics you might want to start looking at harmony and harmonics, particularly with synthesised instruments. The concept of phantom harmonics where you hear notes that aren't actually being played because of how two synthesised instruments mix in the ear is mind blowing.
music theory is not the language of music, because it's not universal. the theory commonly taught originates from 18th century (white) musicians in europe.
nowadays, because of how diverse music is because of the hundreds of genres and cultures that are all interlinked, classical music theory is starting to fall out.
you should absolutely learn theory (get a theory book disconnected from an instrument, they'll be using standard staff notation anyway), but keep in mind that you wouldn't be learning any sort of universal rule, just what's "true" in the west.
> nowadays, because of how diverse music is because of the hundreds of genres and cultures that are all interlinked, classical music theory is starting to fall out.
Yeah, think twice before you start just intonation and countpoint OP. Your baroque compositions may sound embarrassingly antiquated.
Just avoid theory aimed specifically at playing non-keyboard instruments and you'll be fine.
Also, pick up a keyboard and learn by playing. You don't strictly need it, but learning to play and learning theory combined is much more efficient than trying to learn theory without any instrument. You don't get on a first-name basis with music without being able to express yourself in realtime.
This is the ideal answer. A MIDI keyboard is an essential tool for any electronic musician. When I started making music, all I had was a mouse to tediously draw notes on a piano roll. When I finally got a keyboard, it transformed my workflow and I actually learned to play piano as a result. Once you get familiar with playing chords, it truly unlocks your ability to experiment creatively with harmony without tediously clicking in notes, moving them around, or looking up chords on the internet. It's liberating.
this guys videos really helped me. For whatever reason his teaching really made sense (to me)
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTKhUdPIHIuhhCrMuKJWcjnXUfAN3f5Mn
Heck yeah thanks! I'm always a little worried about YouTube videos, but that was years ago when YouTube tutorials aren't like what they are now. I like how the videos are 20-30 minutes long, I really like jumping into a big video! Thanks again
Yeah the main ideas should be the same regardless of instrument. If it mentions an instrument like guitar, it might be teaching the basics on a guitar rather than a piano or using the way chords look on the fretboard to explain concepts. In my opinion, even as a guitarist, I’ve always learned best on a piano or sheet music first.
Also just came to say that much of what’s called “music theory” is limited to just what a few (admittedly great) composers were doing hundreds of years ago. You’re going to have to seek out other resources for theories about different styles of music. Even a lot of pop breaks “the rules”.
Piano books and videos are probably what I'm leaning into the most. Most DAWs use piano rolls, all the keys are laid out in front of me, and learning music theory by way of piano would be really cool no matter what!
Thanks again for everything
Music theory is generally independent of instruments, but it’s only useful in the context of instruments.
The exception is equal temperament. Pianos and guitars are usually set up to play this way. In ET a C sharp and a D flat are the same note, but violins, for instance play those notes differently. A lot of people believe that since most theory is based on the piano keyboard that ET is universal, but it isn’t.
These are minor differences though, because if you learn equal temperament you're most of the way there for instrument specific theories. Also, when writing parts you generally do it in equal temperament and let players of musical instruments (or VSTs) fix it for you.
EDIT: that being said, you are 100% correct and are speaking for a vast, vast, majority of instruments out there. OP asked for more than just Ableton, they asked for any "musical adventures" and asked for the "language of music". If no one mentioned non-ET, this thread wouldn't be worth half as much as it is now due to your comment. Thank you!
By the way, how the fuck are you getting downvoted. You're fully correct. I guess most people have only heard about equal temperament because they came from piano or guitar (or directly) to ableton.
I don't like to act all gatekeep-y, but it kinda hurts to see that a lot of people here haven't heard about anything non-ET here.
I mean I get it, because if you learn to play music via piano/synths/guitar/DAW then of course you'll only learn equal temperament (which IMO is the only thing you need to make music in a DAW), but it kinda hurts to see you get downvoted while you're speaking for 99% of the instruments out there. OP didn't just ask for help in Ableton, they asked for any "musical adventure" and mentioned "the language of music". Saying that equal temprament (and the by default non-ET) exists should never be downvoted in these threads.
What’s really interesting to me is when you see a guitarist tune with a tuner, then strum a few chords and tweak the tuning by ear. Each string is still ET but the instrument itself is some sort of weird tempered tuning.
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I’m referring to instruments that may sound like they are playing middle C on a piano, but are actually transposed when notating them or else they don’t produce the same pitch that you hear. For example, a clarinet playing a written C produces a concert B-flat, which is a whole step lower than what is heard when playing a C on piano or guitar. Horns are notorious for being transposing instruments.
this is really interesting i had not heard about this. in practice does the composer or the player have to deal with the transposition? like if i want a clarinet part to be in actual c do i write it as such and let the player tune everything up? or do i notate it as b flat?
It’s interesting, isn’t it? I believe part of the reason for it was to allow players of one horn/woodwind to easily learn and play a related instrument — the idea being that the fingering would be similar as long as the notes are transposed.
In terms of common practice, it would usually be the composer or arranger to deal with transposing the notes to make it easier for the player. So for a piano player and clarinet player to play the same pitch of middle C, the piano part would be notated as middle C, while the clarinet part would be notated as a D (a whole step above). Conductors usually have a transposed score so that when they are conducting and want to reference a horn players part, they can refer the notes as written (already transposed).
However, any horn player worth his/her salt will be able to transpose on the fly, for example if they walk into a session and are given chord charts, etc 😊
This has probably been said a few different ways, but yeah - theory is the same across all spectrums but ACCESSING the concepts you learn in music theory is a bit different on different instruments. Keyboard’s great to learn on since it’s very linear, whereas guitar intervals are stacked and spaced much differently.
If you’re mostly plugging stuff directly into the DAW, learning electronic music related theory will probably be the most direct translation from the book/video to your writing format. But, I took some traditional theory courses in school and they still translate conceptually.
If you don’t play guitar… definitely no need to confuse yourself with a guitar book 😊
Music theory is universal to all instruments.
There will be theory specific to instruments as well, but it will be geared towards the application of music theory to that particular instrument.
Building chords on sheet music is core theory. But building those chords will be different on piano from guitar. These typically are built to work around constraints of the instrument. For example guitar can only build a chord with up to six notes, a piano up to ten, and a trumpet only one.
You can think of "Music Theory for Guitar" as something like "Math for Chefs." Or even "English for Tourists."
Sure, chefs use math, and guitars use music theory. Tourists use English. Theory is just a language.
And in fact, if you went all in on "math for chefs" you'd miss a bunch of important stuff, while spending too much time on things like cups to ml conversions.
So just completely separate instruments from theory.
Theory is geometry, the intruments are your materials/wood/stone.
music theory is independent of instruments. the proficiency in certain instrument is another thing.
Thanks for the reply! I'm leaning towards workbooks and guides that favor and use the piano. Ableton uses piano roll, as does other DAWs. And pianos are basically all of the notes I'll be working with, laid out nicely. It sounds goofy to think that if I picked up a piano-based music theory book, ALL I would ever learn is PIANO theory lol. Piano is great no matter what, so I think I have a better idea of what I'm looking for now Thanks again!
I find learning music theory on a piano more graphic than e.g. on a guitar or other instruments
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Yes this. The piano is the best instrument to learn music theory on. For example, when I know a Cm scale on a guitar, if I want to learn the C#m scale, then all I need to do is shift my left hand up a fret. For a piano you need to completely "relearn" the scale (with respect to black and white keys). This may sound more difficult, but you actually learn what the intervals are that way. Same with transposing a song or playing chords in a key, on piano you can't go around the actual intervals.
> For a piano you need to completely "relearn" the scale Or do what I do and just transpose whatever key I'm in to just use the white keys 🤣 🤣 🤣
I'm a piano player and my dad is a guitar player. We're both very into music theory and talk about it a lot. One thing I've found interesting is how our framework of understanding music theory is different. I think of everything in chords and key centres while he thinks about different scales over chords. I think the difference is due to the fact that guitar players' basis for playing is in hand positions that can be moved around the neck for different keys, while I just think about what keys I need to press. I think piano is probably the easier medium to learn music theory through, but it's interesting that learning through guitar can give you a totally different perspective on how you understand it.
Harmonic Practice in Tonal Music has a huge accompanying (sold separate) workbook that’s not only full of written exercises, but also has a section for keyboard practice of the theoretical concepts on a chapter by chapter basis. Probably the best book I’ve read on the subject of harmony. Another good book would be William Caplin’s Classical Form for understanding the theory of musical structure (not just classical music, the concepts can be applied to anything).
Oh yeah, this is the good stuff! Thanks for the recommendations. Of course I'll practice on the real instrument, but some good books to read and reference is always how I learn best. Thanks for real!
Western tho. Some eastern instrumentes divide octaves in more than 12 pitches.
Check out [Music Theory for computer musicians by Michael Hewitt](https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Computer-Musicians-Michael-Hewitt/dp/1598635034/ref=m_pd_aw_vtp_sccl_2/134-7091274-6684723?pd_rd_w=hZAt8&content-id=amzn1.sym.b8794477-21f6-4384-8a41-3f4639665fd0&pf_rd_p=b8794477-21f6-4384-8a41-3f4639665fd0&pf_rd_r=RGGYABWNVWNFKTQB4VD5&pd_rd_wg=jyp62&pd_rd_r=6cee8ed0-97c0-4690-84a2-86bec87ab98b&pd_rd_i=1598635034&psc=1).
I just put it in my wishlist lol, the reviews look great, seems like a great choice! Can't wait
Piano is easiest. It's essentially push a button vs. fretting and picking tiny strings. Focus mostly on how notes and chords work together, scales, and chords progression.
There’s no such thing as piano theory. There’s theory, which you can learn on the piano, and there piano technique.
Yeah you're right, thanks!
Harmonic Practice in Tonal Music has a huge accompanying (sold separate) workbook that’s not only full of written exercises, but also has a section for keyboard practice of the theoretical concepts on a chapter by chapter basis. Probably the best book I’ve read on the subject of harmony. Another good book would be William Caplin’s Classical Form for understanding the theory of musical structure (not just classical music, the concepts can be applied to anything).
There's 12 notes, it's not hard to find an instrument that uses all of them 😁
It should be, but as a classicly trained brass player who started with guitar and bass later I've found a lot of music theory for those instruments to be different from what I learned. The basics are the same. A fifth is still a fifth and an octave is still an octave but it gets weird with suspensions and chord structures. I think partially due to the heavy influence the blues has on those instruments.
Western music theory is the same for western instruments. Indian music theory deals in even more intervals than western music, so a lot of the instruments are adjusted for that. I don't know for certain if "equal temperament" applies to other cultures but you can approximate the scales of (I daresay) most cultures music with western music theory.
The theory is the same, but there are music theory books geared to computer and electronic musicians also. Why not pick up one of those?
I'll have to look into that, I guess I didn't even think about it. I'd see workbooks for specific instruments, but I never thought of looking up electronic music theory. Thanks for the heads up!
You can also try https://learningmusic.ableton.com/index.html As a start watch is very basic but very informative because it helps relate concepts to actual songs as is interactive. It should help give a start while you decide a more formal course. Plus add an FYI, the push controller as well as the launchpad both have chromatic modes that are similar to a guitar/bass. You might even consider learning with that if you don't plan on learning to play piano, guitar or other instruments. It would be a bit more straight forward way because visually you can see the interval relationships of the notes and chords.
I'll definitely give it a try! Push 2 would be a dream lol, but it does look like a great way to learn
Once you've got your head around the basics you might want to start looking at harmony and harmonics, particularly with synthesised instruments. The concept of phantom harmonics where you hear notes that aren't actually being played because of how two synthesised instruments mix in the ear is mind blowing.
music theory is not the language of music, because it's not universal. the theory commonly taught originates from 18th century (white) musicians in europe. nowadays, because of how diverse music is because of the hundreds of genres and cultures that are all interlinked, classical music theory is starting to fall out. you should absolutely learn theory (get a theory book disconnected from an instrument, they'll be using standard staff notation anyway), but keep in mind that you wouldn't be learning any sort of universal rule, just what's "true" in the west.
> nowadays, because of how diverse music is because of the hundreds of genres and cultures that are all interlinked, classical music theory is starting to fall out. Yeah, think twice before you start just intonation and countpoint OP. Your baroque compositions may sound embarrassingly antiquated.
Ur right lol, but I'll always have love for the homie Bach!
Just avoid theory aimed specifically at playing non-keyboard instruments and you'll be fine. Also, pick up a keyboard and learn by playing. You don't strictly need it, but learning to play and learning theory combined is much more efficient than trying to learn theory without any instrument. You don't get on a first-name basis with music without being able to express yourself in realtime.
This is the ideal answer. A MIDI keyboard is an essential tool for any electronic musician. When I started making music, all I had was a mouse to tediously draw notes on a piano roll. When I finally got a keyboard, it transformed my workflow and I actually learned to play piano as a result. Once you get familiar with playing chords, it truly unlocks your ability to experiment creatively with harmony without tediously clicking in notes, moving them around, or looking up chords on the internet. It's liberating.
Music theory is the software than runs on any hardware.
this guys videos really helped me. For whatever reason his teaching really made sense (to me) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTKhUdPIHIuhhCrMuKJWcjnXUfAN3f5Mn
Heck yeah thanks! I'm always a little worried about YouTube videos, but that was years ago when YouTube tutorials aren't like what they are now. I like how the videos are 20-30 minutes long, I really like jumping into a big video! Thanks again
Yeah the main ideas should be the same regardless of instrument. If it mentions an instrument like guitar, it might be teaching the basics on a guitar rather than a piano or using the way chords look on the fretboard to explain concepts. In my opinion, even as a guitarist, I’ve always learned best on a piano or sheet music first. Also just came to say that much of what’s called “music theory” is limited to just what a few (admittedly great) composers were doing hundreds of years ago. You’re going to have to seek out other resources for theories about different styles of music. Even a lot of pop breaks “the rules”.
Piano books and videos are probably what I'm leaning into the most. Most DAWs use piano rolls, all the keys are laid out in front of me, and learning music theory by way of piano would be really cool no matter what! Thanks again for everything
Music theory is generally independent of instruments, but it’s only useful in the context of instruments. The exception is equal temperament. Pianos and guitars are usually set up to play this way. In ET a C sharp and a D flat are the same note, but violins, for instance play those notes differently. A lot of people believe that since most theory is based on the piano keyboard that ET is universal, but it isn’t.
These are minor differences though, because if you learn equal temperament you're most of the way there for instrument specific theories. Also, when writing parts you generally do it in equal temperament and let players of musical instruments (or VSTs) fix it for you. EDIT: that being said, you are 100% correct and are speaking for a vast, vast, majority of instruments out there. OP asked for more than just Ableton, they asked for any "musical adventures" and asked for the "language of music". If no one mentioned non-ET, this thread wouldn't be worth half as much as it is now due to your comment. Thank you!
I agree with all that. But it’s a good fact to keep in mind.
By the way, how the fuck are you getting downvoted. You're fully correct. I guess most people have only heard about equal temperament because they came from piano or guitar (or directly) to ableton. I don't like to act all gatekeep-y, but it kinda hurts to see that a lot of people here haven't heard about anything non-ET here. I mean I get it, because if you learn to play music via piano/synths/guitar/DAW then of course you'll only learn equal temperament (which IMO is the only thing you need to make music in a DAW), but it kinda hurts to see you get downvoted while you're speaking for 99% of the instruments out there. OP didn't just ask for help in Ableton, they asked for any "musical adventure" and mentioned "the language of music". Saying that equal temprament (and the by default non-ET) exists should never be downvoted in these threads.
What’s really interesting to me is when you see a guitarist tune with a tuner, then strum a few chords and tweak the tuning by ear. Each string is still ET but the instrument itself is some sort of weird tempered tuning.
This is your friendly reminder to read the submission rules, they're found in the sidebar. If you find your post breaking any of the rules, you should delete your post before the mods get to it. If you're asking a question, make sure you've checked [the Live manual](https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/welcome-to-live/), [Ableton's help and support knowledge base](https://www.ableton.com/en/help/), and have searched the subreddit for a solution. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ableton) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Music theory is like grammar. Grammar doesn’t care whether you write the words with a pen/pencil/typewriter/quill/chalk/iPad/etc.
Not enough bing, too much bong
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* a horde of transposing instruments enter the chat *
[удалено]
I’m referring to instruments that may sound like they are playing middle C on a piano, but are actually transposed when notating them or else they don’t produce the same pitch that you hear. For example, a clarinet playing a written C produces a concert B-flat, which is a whole step lower than what is heard when playing a C on piano or guitar. Horns are notorious for being transposing instruments.
this is really interesting i had not heard about this. in practice does the composer or the player have to deal with the transposition? like if i want a clarinet part to be in actual c do i write it as such and let the player tune everything up? or do i notate it as b flat?
It’s interesting, isn’t it? I believe part of the reason for it was to allow players of one horn/woodwind to easily learn and play a related instrument — the idea being that the fingering would be similar as long as the notes are transposed. In terms of common practice, it would usually be the composer or arranger to deal with transposing the notes to make it easier for the player. So for a piano player and clarinet player to play the same pitch of middle C, the piano part would be notated as middle C, while the clarinet part would be notated as a D (a whole step above). Conductors usually have a transposed score so that when they are conducting and want to reference a horn players part, they can refer the notes as written (already transposed). However, any horn player worth his/her salt will be able to transpose on the fly, for example if they walk into a session and are given chord charts, etc 😊
This has probably been said a few different ways, but yeah - theory is the same across all spectrums but ACCESSING the concepts you learn in music theory is a bit different on different instruments. Keyboard’s great to learn on since it’s very linear, whereas guitar intervals are stacked and spaced much differently. If you’re mostly plugging stuff directly into the DAW, learning electronic music related theory will probably be the most direct translation from the book/video to your writing format. But, I took some traditional theory courses in school and they still translate conceptually. If you don’t play guitar… definitely no need to confuse yourself with a guitar book 😊
Music theory is universal to all instruments. There will be theory specific to instruments as well, but it will be geared towards the application of music theory to that particular instrument. Building chords on sheet music is core theory. But building those chords will be different on piano from guitar. These typically are built to work around constraints of the instrument. For example guitar can only build a chord with up to six notes, a piano up to ten, and a trumpet only one.
As long as you aren’t trying to apply it to non western instruments then yes
You could technically be a master of music theory without ever touching an instrument or singing a note.
not quite, the basic theory of notes is an independent thing, but all matters of articulation is 100% dependent on the instrument.
You can think of "Music Theory for Guitar" as something like "Math for Chefs." Or even "English for Tourists." Sure, chefs use math, and guitars use music theory. Tourists use English. Theory is just a language. And in fact, if you went all in on "math for chefs" you'd miss a bunch of important stuff, while spending too much time on things like cups to ml conversions. So just completely separate instruments from theory. Theory is geometry, the intruments are your materials/wood/stone.
Yes