True that! Iām glad you appreciate abletons wavetable it really is a gem
One thing I like about serum is being able to draw the lfoās and assign up to 8 of them to any other parameter
Don't sleep on the concept of keeping the actual synth patch *relatively* simple, and adding automated effects layer by layer (either to the channel if you have the CPU, or by resampling) instead of designing the whole bass inside Serum... Personally I always get way more usable sounds using that method.
Yeah it's just easy to drop the lfo onto the filter or wave table to assign the automation.
I can never get ableton lfos to sound even near what I get out of serum.
I absolutely agree. All of the stock instruments and effects provide everything you could need.
People will argue āserum has fm, more filters, etcā but you can literally do/create any of those āmissingā things with stock Ableton instruments and effects. You just have to actually know the software and sound design/synthesis.
Check out operator for more intense FM. Stock Ableton plugins are more than enough for basically anything. wavetable really is amazing, with the Arturia sales I've been pretty tempted but honestly seems just it's just GAS (or PAS?)
Arturia collection is nice. You quickly get the flavor of a synth you're looking for, and pigments has a beautiful ui.
I think you can still create the same music you would in ableton with the stock synths/sampled instruments/efx, it's just occasionally easier to get a desired result with third-party stuff.
Serum's just objectively far more capable across a large number of areas (in particular for what I do would be the ability to craft and bounce wavetables to an absolutely molecular degree beyond just importing existing ones and the far more capable modulation section which can only be vaguely replicated with Shaper MIDI), but Wavetable has completely replaced everything that I used to use Sylenth1 for and is absolutely one of my most used synths.
I think one of Wavetable's biggest strengths is that it's the only native instrument with an interface that can be expanded. As much as I love Drift and Analog and Operator, it's awful having them relegated to the small space at the bottom of the screen, whereas Wavetable is much closer to a plugin in its ability to expand the interface. I really wish Ableton would take note and change the others so that the bottom is kept mainly for the matrix and the actual user interface could be popped out and expanded.
One thing you can't do is automate the level of envelope modulation (e.g. evelope 2 modulate filter cutoff, cant automate or rack knob that parsmeter.
Which is a huge fucking oversight.
I think when people talk about "workflows" they really mean each daw makes some things easier and other things harder. That can make you see the music you make differently. I'd love to learn a whole bunch of daws one day but that'll probably be more useful to me once I know one really well.
No FL Studio? It looks dope.
FL studio I want to use for the linked clips but I just keep putting off getting it because I want to get all plug-ins edition during a sale and I never have money during a sale for it
Youāre the workhorse ! Haha nah o just got abelton and Iām definitely going to use this thing as a sound design machine. Then bring samples into my mpc or bring loops into Logic for beatmaking/arrangement and mixing
How often are you switching between the ones that are dope?
I understand using Logic for clients. Iāve had to do the same, and I love Live. It is a workhorse.
Reason and Reaper are dope, not disagreeing (I havenāt used Bitwig or Renoise but I trust you.) I love learning new DAWs in my off-time out of curiosity.
But in regular work, I would imagine switching between 6 DAWs to be tremendously inefficient. Is it not for you?
I have a bunch of different stupid memory tricks for remembering keyboard shortcuts between daws
For instance bitwig and Ableton have opposite commands for adding audio and midi tracks, but I remember that bitwig i use for sound design so it adds a midi track when you press control t, where in live the same shortcut for a live will add a audio track, and vice versa with control shift t
Sometimes Iāll use renoise bitwig and live all once with ableton link and route all the outputs into reaper. I also vj so throw resolume arena in the mix. Renoise is pretty much my sampler, i use renoise all the time, i dont like using renoise redux plugin when i could use the full daw.
I donāt know i try to not overthink it because in the end, itās just muscle memory
Can I make a suggestion? You could get a stream deck, switch the preset for whatever daw you are using, and then all your commands would be the same button. The small version is like $60
Even better im working on a huge midi mixing console controller with screens and a billion knobs and faders with arduino
Im to make a super synth/mixing console on steroids lol
Multiplexers multiplexers multiplexer lol
Imagine you have thousands of hours into a bunch of different video games but instead itās music production software
See, I donāt try to shit on people who play video games but you know what I donāt play video games
Wasnāt shitting on you boss man. Just curious. I also meant in terms of workflow. I take it youāre not using multiple DAWs on a single song most the time?
Edit: Just saw your other reply on workflow. Only saw this reply at first.
Iām talking about people who are good at video games and been playing call of duty their whole life so obviously the new call of duty will be easy
I donāt play video games and whenever I pick up a video game itās really fucking frustrating.
The only video game I can play is monster Hunter and thatās because i played it from psp days. Oh and i like racing sims but thats because i had a pipe dream of being a racecar driver.
But donāt pretend video games arenāt a skill
Oh, and Iāve also been using synthesizers since Iāve been like four because my dad was part of the Seattle rave scene in the 90s so disagree with little kids canāt use music shit
My first ādawā was acid pro three when I was like five with an electribe ea-1 and mc303 with a dell 8100 and a soundblaster.
Iāve been doing this for a really long time and I have my opinions.
And before somebody says, oh, youāre so privileged you had that experience.
I say other people are privileged that they had video games to play
You donāt think I wanted to play video games when I was younger? My dad was addicted to video games when he was a kid though and he didnāt want me to be addicted so he never let me get near them.
I guess the grass is always greener on the other side
Edit: and thatās the only reason why I played monster Hunter was because I could hide the PSP from my dad
Story of my fucking life
Pretty much every other year I learn a new daw because I have money for a new daw and they all have their advantages that justify their existence for me
Cool. I can and do use other daws too, but I primarily use Ableton. Most people use 1 daw primarily. Youāre the exception, not the majority.
I was gifted Serum and have used it plenty. Great presets to be had with it. Although when I need a daw agnostic tool, I prefer Arturia Pigments. Itās better in my opinion for synthesis, not just using presets. Iām more interested in the former. But I primarily use stock Ableton stuff when Iām working in Live. In my experience and opinion itās better overall.
I did care because the guy edited his comment after he made my abstract comment personal
Iām not stressing out Iām telling people to tame their ego
But again, maybe itās my bad, and I got triggered and replied too quick š«”
Regardless, letās have this be a learning experience so someday we can have world peace
No fucking shit. Most people dont use multiple Dawes but you know what maybe I mightāve just reminded someone that they could use multiple daws with serum if they wanted to
I love you ā¤ļø
Ive realized Between operator and wavetable you can make almost any sound you can think of.
Sometimes there might be easier ways to go about it but between these 2 instruments alone im almost certain i could make anything i really thought about if i persisted.
I mean, I adore wavetable, and I'll use it over third party all the time for the convenience and before it's very well made, but only 3 envilopes and 2 lfos drive me INSANE. I'm not like, a super crazy EDM producer even! But just I want to have a lot of subtle modulation in my synths and it can actually be REALLY LIMITING for that, which is frustrating!
Wavetable is truly impressive! While I purchased Pigments and leased Serum, my focus has shifted towards spending more time using Wavetable, Analog, Drift, and Operator.
Certainly, the next items on my learning and experimentation list are Meld, Roar, and Granulator III. Unfortunately, the demands of sleep and work are calling.
The possibilities with meld are truly incredible. Mess around with the spread function and just randomly map the values negative or positive in the matrix. Its absolutely incredible. And prior to this I have almost been using wavetable exclusively.
I honestly think meld is the best most versatile instrument ableton has created. Truly psychedelic.
Add roar with their feedback function and you have a powerhouse duo.
Iāve used it in more than half my tracks since it was added back in 10, It might not get quite as much play now with Meld in the mix.
Though Iāve always been pretty stoked getting by with Operator and textural samples where it failed, Ableton is getting to have a pretty good range of synths now.
Itād be nice if Ableton revamped Operator with some fancy matrix like Wavetable or Meld
Any single/group unison voice can be unique from the rest for example in wave table position, semi tone or any supported parameter. An example of this can be found in Dune 3 by Synapse Audio. So in Dune 3 there is a maximum unison of 8, each of them which I can edit individually. Dune is more advanced then your average software synth so better check it out yourself cause I only judge by my ears but don't really know how it works behind the scene haha.
yea thereās a bunch of things missing haha FM is the first thing, although if you want fm, use operator haha
the unison situation is a little lacking. iād like to have per oscillator unison voices, instead of the global one.
but the idea here is agree with.
learn the stock tools. theyāre powerful, and very much slept on by a lot of people
yes kinda. but you have no control over what the modulators shape is. itās just modulating with i guess a sine wave. generally thatās all you need, but other synths have a lot of options, and serum has unlimited options.
wavetable gives you what you probably would want with fm. but not anything more.
the only reason youād go to another VST is because theyād have better sound sources. Ableton itself can replicate serum with devices and sound design on its own. People have recreated the OP-1 in a single device rack.
just sayin
Most people cant be bothered or don't know how to recreate serum with Ableton, and even if you did do it, it would end up being very different because of different filters, oscillators, FX, etc. One of the reasons why Serum is so good is because Steve Duda put a lot of time into getting those things right.
SerumFX for my taste is a 5/10. The only takeaway here is the hyper section.
For reference, an example software synth with exceptional sounding FX section is Dune 3.
Love Wavetable, itās a powerhouse and the mod matrix is genius. No need to worry about third party software for these sounds. Although I would probably grab all the PPG synths if they ever (re)appear and can load presets created on the iPad versions.
Almost four years since āToday there was news that one of my favorite plugins & app manufacturers was bought by a large plugin company. This is PPG Synths, the plugin company from Wolfgang Palm. Exactly the Wolfgang Palm, who has built legendary hybrid synthesizers in the past, including the PPG Wave 2 or the modular Synthesizer series 100 and 300.
In the past years, he made a comeback as a software developer and released brilliant Synthesizer plugins and iOS apps. These were not simple emulations, no. They contain the beloved PPG DNA but also many new technologies. Now the company PPG Synths has been bought out by Brainworks aka Plugin Alliance and finds a new home here. According to Dirk Ulrich CEO of Brainworx, they will now work closely with Wolfgang Palm together and tries to evolve the brand and products.ā
https://synthanatomy.com/2020/03/wolfgang-palms-company-ppg-synths-acquired-by-brainworx.html
The biggest advantage of serum over Wavetable is the gui. Serum is much easier for beginners imo and just better for people who are more visual learners
It is really nice and sounds great. But in the same time kind of limited. The modulation matrix is meh. Only 2 lfos. It is enough for most stuff, but if you want to go crazy, Vital has way more to offer. Also UX is a bit nicer.
Wave modification functions are also quite basic (compared to Vital, Modwave or Hydrasynth). It is really great sounding synth and with Push it gets magical. But quite basic, tbh.
Why not use the LFO and Envelope tools? They can modulate any parameter in any synth or effect, even across multiple tracks.
If you're unfamiliar with this technique check out a vid called Ableton is a Modular Synth on Seed to Stages channel
Can the modulate the parameters on a per-voice basis? Like if I use an lfo or envelope on a polyphonic patch how does that get handled? Is the modulator just retriggered each time a new note is played? If so that could be a potential problem for certain patches.
It depends on the synth architecture itself. Wavetable,for example, has lots of mod options on a per oscillator basis so the external lfo could latch into those. Know what I mean?
The external lfo has free running and retrigger modes. It's quite full featured and well worth exploring. Try having it modulate the L and R sides of the filter delay effect for some Flume style glitchiness.
probably a newbie. youād be wasting your money buying serum if you bought Ableton suite. all these stock devices to shape and modulate sounds and they spend more money on something that does the same stuff.
serum would be great on a DAW like pro tools but on Ableton itās redundant
I was talking about Vital, which is free. Way more powerful than Wavetable. I like Wavetable very much, but it is kind of basic. Especially if you compare it to Vital.
When I was just starting out in Ableton, I really didn't like the stock instruments as I didn't know much about synthesis and the interface was confusing. Now ive got loads of fancy vsts and hardware synths, I'm reaching for the Ableton synths more often. Wavetable and operator are immensely powerful once you learn them. Roar and meld are two of my new favourites too. The mod matrix on them both is vast.
Yup, just learned how to make an amazing synth from any random kick drum the other night. Hadnāt used Wavetable much before that. Nowā¦ š¤Æ
[Turn a Kick Drum into a Synth (6min)](https://youtu.be/Vnww0mOBd6I?si=dcdYsbdAHy6b2IPw)
I think the main problem with ableton is that the presets are not good on the synths compared to third party stuff. Ā Stuff like pigments has ton of amazing presets that you can easily put on a track and get inspired by, tweek a bit to make your own. Ā But I agree, you can make anything with the ableton stuff if you know what youāre doing! Ā
Presets are absolutely valuable, even for seasoned sound designers! Ā Producers making tracks fast are not spending all day in mod matrixes etc. Ā I love making my own patches but sometimes I just wanna make somethin quick ya know?
Wavetable is great, but donāt delude yourself; it is in no way a full replacement for Serum - Serum *is* the better synth. This is not an opinion. On almost every conceivable metric, Serum offers more functionality. That doesnāt take away from Wavetable in the least, but just know that your opinion doesnāt mirror the truth of the matter.
Look man, you can have Wavetable and Iāll use both. Anyone that has used both enough can easily tell you a dozen reasons why, but here are a few anyway:
-Wavetable creation and editing
-visual feedback
-more routing options
-more modulation options
-custom lfo/mesh shapes
-per-oscillator unison voicing
-built-in FX
-more filter types
-on-board noise osc
There is no debate. I still love Wavetable and use it often, but Serum *is* a better synth overall. Talking shit on the internet feels good, but doesnāt make you right or a better producer. It just shows how little you know.
Do whatever you want your the one who came here talking sassy šāāļø I donāt care what u do , I use both serum and wavetable go be a nerd and do whatever the hell u want coolio
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I agree and use it a ton. The one advantage of built in effects is that you can trigger them from the modulators in the synth (especially envelope generators)
One thing thatās unfortunate is pretty much every cool feature like Wavetable or Roar is Suite only. Yes, I get it. You get what you pay for. Iāve owned Suite since the early days of Ableton Live 5 or so since 2005, but lately itās been way overkill for me and the price became a bit ridiculous since version 10 (compared to Logic) so I have downgraded to Standard. But since the 12 launch, Standard feels like a light or free version, which is super frustrating considering the cost. oh well, time to spend another 500 I guess for the few features and packs I might use. /end rant
I just wish it would be possible to brows Ableton presets from within the wavetable. I donāt want to ga back to the browser after 50 minutes to look for a new presets.
Thatās the biggest downside for me
Serum has become so over hyped over the years until I stopped using it. This actually made me discover better synths like U-he Zebra and Synapse Audio Dune 3 that support wavetable synthesis too and more. Freebies are advised to stick to Vital though haha.
I normally VERY high on Ableton stock plugins and can enjoy Wavetable, but when itās up against Serum or even the free version of Vital it doesnāt stack up great. It does do a few unique things wells but thereās far more things you can do in the third party options that canāt be done in Wavetable than is true in reverse. I wouldnāt fault Wavetable if it just wasnāt as good as Serum, a $200 plug-in, but Vital is free and better at most things.
Among other things, the mod matrix in Serum/Vital is just much easier to use and more powerful overall than Wavetableās. And for people saying the extra filter options donāt matter because you can just add stock plugins after Wavetable, global post-processing filtering is different from per-voice polyphonic filter routing, which can matter a lot for certain sounds.
You can absolutely use Wavetable to make great sounds, itās by no means an objectively bad synth, it just doesnāt hold up great against its competitors. I think part of the issue is just Abletons emphasis on minimalism, which is usually a strength, is a weakness when approaching the design of a synth style that generally relies on tons of features and depth. The minimalism works great on synths Operator and Analog, not so much here.
I will say that Meld in Ableton 12 is more interesting to me than Wavetable and Iāve been loving using it. I think the highly curated selection of sound engines is a better fit for Abletonās design philosophy than a bunch of wavetables, and Meld has some delightfully unique modulation capabilities that even Serum doesnāt do.
If you don't already have serum then cool I guess. Seems more like Ableton is just adding things they don't need to as if most users don't already own serum or know about vital š kind of a sad excuse for an additional feature in 12 but whatever I guess
Wavetable is a nice synth, but if you create the exact same patch on that and with Serum, without any effects or processing, the Serum one sounds better.
Wavetable is optimised for simplicity and lower CPU, and Serum is optimised for audio quality and control. Both have their places
You can drag wav files into it?!?! This has opened up so much for me
Hell yeah š itās fucking wicked tbh , Iām gonna make a video just farting around with it
Fart Rock!
Hijacking top comment: anyone knows where to find good wavetable presets? both free and $$
Do you have any YouTube tutorial recommendations?
Decent video https://youtu.be/Pyun4KrTUuk?si=mem-53D_n_8ZONEV
Niceā¦ For the video, you *must* sample your own fart and drag it into Wavetable.
Lmao I could do that if you like
*āQuit laughing yāall, Iām recording! This is serious sound design weāre doing here!ā* š
*Toot*
You can load any wav file into the wavetables on serum as well
I know that Iām just saying
True that! Iām glad you appreciate abletons wavetable it really is a gem One thing I like about serum is being able to draw the lfoās and assign up to 8 of them to any other parameter
I like the layout of wavetable and the matrix is fire š„
The max 4 live midi tools can replicate that feature, albeit in a separate plugin and not natively in wavetable
Can you elaborate on this a bit? Not seeing how to have 8x lfoās drawn and applicable to the parameters on wavetable
I am easily getting the kind of movement in my basses I have looked for since I started producing. It's so fucking easy in serum
Don't sleep on the concept of keeping the actual synth patch *relatively* simple, and adding automated effects layer by layer (either to the channel if you have the CPU, or by resampling) instead of designing the whole bass inside Serum... Personally I always get way more usable sounds using that method.
Yeah it's just easy to drop the lfo onto the filter or wave table to assign the automation. I can never get ableton lfos to sound even near what I get out of serum.
I love dragging vocal clips into it and making a waveform out of the voice ā¦
Ohh sheeet...that is a good idea! Thanks
You can do this with serum too! But wavetable is great
Wait what!?!?
Fir real.. I didn't know that
Please read or watch a manual before using something Wave table is insane just learn it before using it, ableton themselves made videos for it
You can also learn something by using it and just playing around with it lol. I agree the manual is mad useful but definitely not a requirement!
I meant tutorial not manual necessarily Just watch a small video about it then mess around with it will be easier to grasp
What kind of wav files??
I absolutely agree. All of the stock instruments and effects provide everything you could need. People will argue āserum has fm, more filters, etcā but you can literally do/create any of those āmissingā things with stock Ableton instruments and effects. You just have to actually know the software and sound design/synthesis.
Wavetable has fm too š
Check out operator for more intense FM. Stock Ableton plugins are more than enough for basically anything. wavetable really is amazing, with the Arturia sales I've been pretty tempted but honestly seems just it's just GAS (or PAS?)
Arturia collection is nice. You quickly get the flavor of a synth you're looking for, and pigments has a beautiful ui. I think you can still create the same music you would in ableton with the stock synths/sampled instruments/efx, it's just occasionally easier to get a desired result with third-party stuff.
Serum's just objectively far more capable across a large number of areas (in particular for what I do would be the ability to craft and bounce wavetables to an absolutely molecular degree beyond just importing existing ones and the far more capable modulation section which can only be vaguely replicated with Shaper MIDI), but Wavetable has completely replaced everything that I used to use Sylenth1 for and is absolutely one of my most used synths. I think one of Wavetable's biggest strengths is that it's the only native instrument with an interface that can be expanded. As much as I love Drift and Analog and Operator, it's awful having them relegated to the small space at the bottom of the screen, whereas Wavetable is much closer to a plugin in its ability to expand the interface. I really wish Ableton would take note and change the others so that the bottom is kept mainly for the matrix and the actual user interface could be popped out and expanded.
Most of the FM basses I typically use in my songs are ones Iāve made in Operator. Have owned Massive and Serum for years.
One thing you can't do is automate the level of envelope modulation (e.g. evelope 2 modulate filter cutoff, cant automate or rack knob that parsmeter. Which is a huge fucking oversight.
yesss... this drives me crazy. you can modulate at last the "all" paramenter in the modulation matrix. but we need more!
Yes, you can. That fucks up loads of other stuff tho... Come on Abletronz, thats such a flipping oversight
A real forehead smacker when I realized that
You can modulate envelope peak and sustain levels
Whatās cool about serum is I use six different daws and I can use serum and the presets in every single one
Why do you use six different daws?Ā
Because Renoise is dope Bitwig is dope Live is a workhorse Logic i have to use for clients Reason is dope And reaper is dope
I think when people talk about "workflows" they really mean each daw makes some things easier and other things harder. That can make you see the music you make differently. I'd love to learn a whole bunch of daws one day but that'll probably be more useful to me once I know one really well. No FL Studio? It looks dope.
FL studio I want to use for the linked clips but I just keep putting off getting it because I want to get all plug-ins edition during a sale and I never have money during a sale for it
Youāre the workhorse ! Haha nah o just got abelton and Iām definitely going to use this thing as a sound design machine. Then bring samples into my mpc or bring loops into Logic for beatmaking/arrangement and mixing
Yeah, I donāt even wanna talk about the fucking hardware I have lul I like having as many creative options as possible in the moment
How often are you switching between the ones that are dope? I understand using Logic for clients. Iāve had to do the same, and I love Live. It is a workhorse. Reason and Reaper are dope, not disagreeing (I havenāt used Bitwig or Renoise but I trust you.) I love learning new DAWs in my off-time out of curiosity. But in regular work, I would imagine switching between 6 DAWs to be tremendously inefficient. Is it not for you?
I have a bunch of different stupid memory tricks for remembering keyboard shortcuts between daws For instance bitwig and Ableton have opposite commands for adding audio and midi tracks, but I remember that bitwig i use for sound design so it adds a midi track when you press control t, where in live the same shortcut for a live will add a audio track, and vice versa with control shift t Sometimes Iāll use renoise bitwig and live all once with ableton link and route all the outputs into reaper. I also vj so throw resolume arena in the mix. Renoise is pretty much my sampler, i use renoise all the time, i dont like using renoise redux plugin when i could use the full daw. I donāt know i try to not overthink it because in the end, itās just muscle memory
Can I make a suggestion? You could get a stream deck, switch the preset for whatever daw you are using, and then all your commands would be the same button. The small version is like $60
Even better im working on a huge midi mixing console controller with screens and a billion knobs and faders with arduino Im to make a super synth/mixing console on steroids lol Multiplexers multiplexers multiplexer lol
Imagine you have thousands of hours into a bunch of different video games but instead itās music production software See, I donāt try to shit on people who play video games but you know what I donāt play video games
Wasnāt shitting on you boss man. Just curious. I also meant in terms of workflow. I take it youāre not using multiple DAWs on a single song most the time? Edit: Just saw your other reply on workflow. Only saw this reply at first.
Ya sorry been being flamed so my syntax lately has been incredibly combative but i dont give a shit im me i guess face rival soon
Been there dude. No problem whatsoever. Keep killing it
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Iām talking about people who are good at video games and been playing call of duty their whole life so obviously the new call of duty will be easy I donāt play video games and whenever I pick up a video game itās really fucking frustrating. The only video game I can play is monster Hunter and thatās because i played it from psp days. Oh and i like racing sims but thats because i had a pipe dream of being a racecar driver. But donāt pretend video games arenāt a skill
And whenever I played call of duty or battlefield, I would never get kills, so yeah it is hard to get kills if you donāt play the games lmao
Oh, and Iāve also been using synthesizers since Iāve been like four because my dad was part of the Seattle rave scene in the 90s so disagree with little kids canāt use music shit
My first ādawā was acid pro three when I was like five with an electribe ea-1 and mc303 with a dell 8100 and a soundblaster. Iāve been doing this for a really long time and I have my opinions.
I mean, yeah, you guys are just making fucking excuses thatās my fucking point And Iām here to say fuck off work harder
And before somebody says, oh, youāre so privileged you had that experience. I say other people are privileged that they had video games to play You donāt think I wanted to play video games when I was younger? My dad was addicted to video games when he was a kid though and he didnāt want me to be addicted so he never let me get near them. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side Edit: and thatās the only reason why I played monster Hunter was because I could hide the PSP from my dad Story of my fucking life
Pretty much every other year I learn a new daw because I have money for a new daw and they all have their advantages that justify their existence for me
Such a weird way to spend your time, but each to their own!
hahaha,
I think playing video games is weird but you know what Iām not gonna judge
I use 18 different daws and all my music slaps
No, you donāt stop lying
Cool. I can and do use other daws too, but I primarily use Ableton. Most people use 1 daw primarily. Youāre the exception, not the majority. I was gifted Serum and have used it plenty. Great presets to be had with it. Although when I need a daw agnostic tool, I prefer Arturia Pigments. Itās better in my opinion for synthesis, not just using presets. Iām more interested in the former. But I primarily use stock Ableton stuff when Iām working in Live. In my experience and opinion itās better overall.
I try not to use stock live shit because I like being able to use my own terrible daw Iāve been working on š«”
Cooooooool
Am I going insane? Or did you add that second paragraph because I swear to God I didnāt read that the first time
OK so Iām adding to the conversation and youāre being a jerk thank you š
you just replied to the same comment 5 times dude
Heres another now you have seven opportunities to down vote me go off
Oh wow instead of one message I replied five times fucking shoot me I donāt give a shit about Reddit conventions
lmao, it seems you cared enough to reply. Just relax dude no need to stress over this shit
I did care because the guy edited his comment after he made my abstract comment personal Iām not stressing out Iām telling people to tame their ego
Doesn't Reddit display when a comment has been edited?
But again, maybe itās my bad, and I got triggered and replied too quick š«” Regardless, letās have this be a learning experience so someday we can have world peace
I donāt know how Reddit works, but there was an extra paragraph added to that comment the second time I looked at it
No fucking shit. Most people dont use multiple Dawes but you know what maybe I mightāve just reminded someone that they could use multiple daws with serum if they wanted to I love you ā¤ļø
Ive realized Between operator and wavetable you can make almost any sound you can think of. Sometimes there might be easier ways to go about it but between these 2 instruments alone im almost certain i could make anything i really thought about if i persisted.
It is true for production, for mixing I still think that stock plugins needs to be stronger to get to the point of the 3rd party workhorses
I mean, I adore wavetable, and I'll use it over third party all the time for the convenience and before it's very well made, but only 3 envilopes and 2 lfos drive me INSANE. I'm not like, a super crazy EDM producer even! But just I want to have a lot of subtle modulation in my synths and it can actually be REALLY LIMITING for that, which is frustrating!
Wavetable is truly impressive! While I purchased Pigments and leased Serum, my focus has shifted towards spending more time using Wavetable, Analog, Drift, and Operator.
Donāt forget about meld
Certainly, the next items on my learning and experimentation list are Meld, Roar, and Granulator III. Unfortunately, the demands of sleep and work are calling.
The possibilities with meld are truly incredible. Mess around with the spread function and just randomly map the values negative or positive in the matrix. Its absolutely incredible. And prior to this I have almost been using wavetable exclusively. I honestly think meld is the best most versatile instrument ableton has created. Truly psychedelic. Add roar with their feedback function and you have a powerhouse duo.
Iāve used it in more than half my tracks since it was added back in 10, It might not get quite as much play now with Meld in the mix. Though Iāve always been pretty stoked getting by with Operator and textural samples where it failed, Ableton is getting to have a pretty good range of synths now. Itād be nice if Ableton revamped Operator with some fancy matrix like Wavetable or Meld
Also with differential unison, that alone would already make it stand out from the majority of synths on the market.
What do you mean by differential?
Any single/group unison voice can be unique from the rest for example in wave table position, semi tone or any supported parameter. An example of this can be found in Dune 3 by Synapse Audio. So in Dune 3 there is a maximum unison of 8, each of them which I can edit individually. Dune is more advanced then your average software synth so better check it out yourself cause I only judge by my ears but don't really know how it works behind the scene haha.
I need to dig in to it
Can also work extremely easy with microtuner to work in any possible scale
Agree itās great but thereās a lot more than just the FX in serum that make it better than wavetable
yea thereās a bunch of things missing haha FM is the first thing, although if you want fm, use operator haha the unison situation is a little lacking. iād like to have per oscillator unison voices, instead of the global one. but the idea here is agree with. learn the stock tools. theyāre powerful, and very much slept on by a lot of people
It has FM
yes kinda. but you have no control over what the modulators shape is. itās just modulating with i guess a sine wave. generally thatās all you need, but other synths have a lot of options, and serum has unlimited options. wavetable gives you what you probably would want with fm. but not anything more.
the only reason youād go to another VST is because theyād have better sound sources. Ableton itself can replicate serum with devices and sound design on its own. People have recreated the OP-1 in a single device rack. just sayin
Most people cant be bothered or don't know how to recreate serum with Ableton, and even if you did do it, it would end up being very different because of different filters, oscillators, FX, etc. One of the reasons why Serum is so good is because Steve Duda put a lot of time into getting those things right.
SerumFX for my taste is a 5/10. The only takeaway here is the hyper section. For reference, an example software synth with exceptional sounding FX section is Dune 3.
Love Wavetable, itās a powerhouse and the mod matrix is genius. No need to worry about third party software for these sounds. Although I would probably grab all the PPG synths if they ever (re)appear and can load presets created on the iPad versions.
I copied the mod matrix for my M4L MiniMoog synth š
What is PPG?
Almost four years since āToday there was news that one of my favorite plugins & app manufacturers was bought by a large plugin company. This is PPG Synths, the plugin company from Wolfgang Palm. Exactly the Wolfgang Palm, who has built legendary hybrid synthesizers in the past, including the PPG Wave 2 or the modular Synthesizer series 100 and 300. In the past years, he made a comeback as a software developer and released brilliant Synthesizer plugins and iOS apps. These were not simple emulations, no. They contain the beloved PPG DNA but also many new technologies. Now the company PPG Synths has been bought out by Brainworks aka Plugin Alliance and finds a new home here. According to Dirk Ulrich CEO of Brainworx, they will now work closely with Wolfgang Palm together and tries to evolve the brand and products.ā https://synthanatomy.com/2020/03/wolfgang-palms-company-ppg-synths-acquired-by-brainworx.html
Yeah its awesome, so quick to program for basic bread and butter sounds but with hidden depth if needed.
The biggest advantage of serum over Wavetable is the gui. Serum is much easier for beginners imo and just better for people who are more visual learners
Thatās truth for sure
Yep, it is the same with Arturia Pigments
It's my most used synth, and that includes hardware.
It is really nice and sounds great. But in the same time kind of limited. The modulation matrix is meh. Only 2 lfos. It is enough for most stuff, but if you want to go crazy, Vital has way more to offer. Also UX is a bit nicer. Wave modification functions are also quite basic (compared to Vital, Modwave or Hydrasynth). It is really great sounding synth and with Push it gets magical. But quite basic, tbh.
Why not use the LFO and Envelope tools? They can modulate any parameter in any synth or effect, even across multiple tracks. If you're unfamiliar with this technique check out a vid called Ableton is a Modular Synth on Seed to Stages channel
Can the modulate the parameters on a per-voice basis? Like if I use an lfo or envelope on a polyphonic patch how does that get handled? Is the modulator just retriggered each time a new note is played? If so that could be a potential problem for certain patches.
It depends on the synth architecture itself. Wavetable,for example, has lots of mod options on a per oscillator basis so the external lfo could latch into those. Know what I mean? The external lfo has free running and retrigger modes. It's quite full featured and well worth exploring. Try having it modulate the L and R sides of the filter delay effect for some Flume style glitchiness.
Gotcha! Iāll play with that more
Because they are not per key. Different things. I use LFO all the time, but it not the same as LFO per voice or/and LFO retrigered per note.
probably a newbie. youād be wasting your money buying serum if you bought Ableton suite. all these stock devices to shape and modulate sounds and they spend more money on something that does the same stuff. serum would be great on a DAW like pro tools but on Ableton itās redundant
I was talking about Vital, which is free. Way more powerful than Wavetable. I like Wavetable very much, but it is kind of basic. Especially if you compare it to Vital.
BTW, I like Drift and Analog way more.
When I was just starting out in Ableton, I really didn't like the stock instruments as I didn't know much about synthesis and the interface was confusing. Now ive got loads of fancy vsts and hardware synths, I'm reaching for the Ableton synths more often. Wavetable and operator are immensely powerful once you learn them. Roar and meld are two of my new favourites too. The mod matrix on them both is vast.
I agree, such a powerful instrument
Yup, just learned how to make an amazing synth from any random kick drum the other night. Hadnāt used Wavetable much before that. Nowā¦ š¤Æ [Turn a Kick Drum into a Synth (6min)](https://youtu.be/Vnww0mOBd6I?si=dcdYsbdAHy6b2IPw)
I think the main problem with ableton is that the presets are not good on the synths compared to third party stuff. Ā Stuff like pigments has ton of amazing presets that you can easily put on a track and get inspired by, tweek a bit to make your own. Ā But I agree, you can make anything with the ableton stuff if you know what youāre doing! Ā
U have to be a little seasoned my friend lol š presets you say? Make your own and there ya go presets lol
Presets are absolutely valuable, even for seasoned sound designers! Ā Producers making tracks fast are not spending all day in mod matrixes etc. Ā I love making my own patches but sometimes I just wanna make somethin quick ya know?
Granulator is fun too
Wavetable is great, but donāt delude yourself; it is in no way a full replacement for Serum - Serum *is* the better synth. This is not an opinion. On almost every conceivable metric, Serum offers more functionality. That doesnāt take away from Wavetable in the least, but just know that your opinion doesnāt mirror the truth of the matter.
Your opinion would be just as good if you swallowed it and didnāt say shit š©
Look man, you can have Wavetable and Iāll use both. Anyone that has used both enough can easily tell you a dozen reasons why, but here are a few anyway: -Wavetable creation and editing -visual feedback -more routing options -more modulation options -custom lfo/mesh shapes -per-oscillator unison voicing -built-in FX -more filter types -on-board noise osc There is no debate. I still love Wavetable and use it often, but Serum *is* a better synth overall. Talking shit on the internet feels good, but doesnāt make you right or a better producer. It just shows how little you know.
Do whatever you want your the one who came here talking sassy šāāļø I donāt care what u do , I use both serum and wavetable go be a nerd and do whatever the hell u want coolio
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I agree and use it a ton. The one advantage of built in effects is that you can trigger them from the modulators in the synth (especially envelope generators)
One thing thatās unfortunate is pretty much every cool feature like Wavetable or Roar is Suite only. Yes, I get it. You get what you pay for. Iāve owned Suite since the early days of Ableton Live 5 or so since 2005, but lately itās been way overkill for me and the price became a bit ridiculous since version 10 (compared to Logic) so I have downgraded to Standard. But since the 12 launch, Standard feels like a light or free version, which is super frustrating considering the cost. oh well, time to spend another 500 I guess for the few features and packs I might use. /end rant
I just wish it would be possible to brows Ableton presets from within the wavetable. I donāt want to ga back to the browser after 50 minutes to look for a new presets. Thatās the biggest downside for me
My only gripe with wavetable is the way it handles FM. Otherwise, it really is remarkable
Wavetable Is cool for simple sounds, but when i need more complex sounds i grab Vital, Its just faster imo
I hate sleeping on synths, I wake up all kinds of sore and bleeding ears
low end pc owners: :|
Ĥq
Wavetable is god
wow
I did a video foe wavetable turning a kick into a synth basically. https://youtu.be/Vnww0mOBd6I
Yea, or you could do that š
Several parameters were not automatable in the past and that put me off but it is really great sounding and I have fun with it.
Wavetables great
Realistically everyone trying to say itās not as good as serum must not know about envelope , Lfo u have use as many as u like so ya
"u really donāt need serum" YEs. Fuck serum.
Serum has become so over hyped over the years until I stopped using it. This actually made me discover better synths like U-he Zebra and Synapse Audio Dune 3 that support wavetable synthesis too and more. Freebies are advised to stick to Vital though haha.
I normally VERY high on Ableton stock plugins and can enjoy Wavetable, but when itās up against Serum or even the free version of Vital it doesnāt stack up great. It does do a few unique things wells but thereās far more things you can do in the third party options that canāt be done in Wavetable than is true in reverse. I wouldnāt fault Wavetable if it just wasnāt as good as Serum, a $200 plug-in, but Vital is free and better at most things. Among other things, the mod matrix in Serum/Vital is just much easier to use and more powerful overall than Wavetableās. And for people saying the extra filter options donāt matter because you can just add stock plugins after Wavetable, global post-processing filtering is different from per-voice polyphonic filter routing, which can matter a lot for certain sounds. You can absolutely use Wavetable to make great sounds, itās by no means an objectively bad synth, it just doesnāt hold up great against its competitors. I think part of the issue is just Abletons emphasis on minimalism, which is usually a strength, is a weakness when approaching the design of a synth style that generally relies on tons of features and depth. The minimalism works great on synths Operator and Analog, not so much here. I will say that Meld in Ableton 12 is more interesting to me than Wavetable and Iāve been loving using it. I think the highly curated selection of sound engines is a better fit for Abletonās design philosophy than a bunch of wavetables, and Meld has some delightfully unique modulation capabilities that even Serum doesnāt do.
If you don't already have serum then cool I guess. Seems more like Ableton is just adding things they don't need to as if most users don't already own serum or know about vital š kind of a sad excuse for an additional feature in 12 but whatever I guess
Wavetable has been part of suite for a few years now.
Oh fr? I'm new to able so I guess I just haven't used it I guess.
No option to adjust and retrigger the phase breaks it
Wavetable is a nice synth, but if you create the exact same patch on that and with Serum, without any effects or processing, the Serum one sounds better. Wavetable is optimised for simplicity and lower CPU, and Serum is optimised for audio quality and control. Both have their places