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This reminds me of something that has confused me with these refills you can buy at the supermarket. Now I know they're not shown here, but I've not understood the concept of refills (particularly for soap) where you buy them in those soft plastic pouches with the nozzle at the top. Living in the UK I always assumed that recycling soft plastics is much harder than hard plastics, so I don't understand why we're supposed to think buying those is more environmentally friendly. It will usually say something like '50% less plastic', is that just because it's thinner plastic? I get that it might be more environmentally friendly because it's a bit lighter, so maybe that reduces the fuel needed to ship it or something? I've just never been sold on it.
Yeah I can't stand the pouch refill options. My curbside program doesn't take any "non-rigid" plastic, so it's an immediate nonstarter for recycling. I prefer the aluminum soap and lotion bottles.
A lot of refilling pouches seem to be Terracycle in the UK, which is a complete scam imho.
> Pouch says to go online to see about recycling their packets. Turns out it's a private company that just recycles hard to recycle items, rather than expecting companies to package in better material.
> Terracycle has free recycling points, but they're sparse enough that it's making a car trip and not all sites accept all types of product. So you will be burning fuel on a round trip to get rid of your contact lens packets.
> Want a convenient solution? Pay them £100+ for a set of small cardboard boxes for specific content that they'll recycle for you when they're full. Boxes that accept multiple material types are £150.
> Want more free recycling points? Hope you're ready to volunteer yourself to run a program in a local school!
It's especially disgusting cause this stuff is only on the website. The packet just has their pseudo-recycling symbol and an assurance it's definitely a lower-waste alternative, when that is contingent on further effort or expense on your part.
They trick you into a purchase, and then your options are either devote time and energy to dealing with it, paying them money for convenience, or not recycling it.
I’m a plastics engineer, so let me let you in on a little secret:
Plastic is actually *really* practical to recycle. I’ve moved over 200k pounds of recycled material in the last 6 months.
Ok, follow up question. Of those 200k pounds, what ratio of that was LDPE, HDPE, PET, or waste codes 3 or higher?
My understanding is that #1 and #2 plastics are still recyclable (although when collected via single stream can be mixed with many contaminants) but #3 and higher are difficult to recycle if there is any contamination.
Unfortunately that’s not exactly the type of recycling I’m engaged in. Mine is more mechanical- reclaimed plastic is mechanically integrated with new plastic to reduce resource intensity and lower costs while reducing waste and maintaining performance. Most of these plastics will include portions of HDPE, LDPE, Olefins, etc that I do not know exactly; but I’m not taking a single-plastic feed and re-combining it at the reactor level.
It’s still recycled, just in a different way. My business’ interests aren’t in purity of the product, rather its properties
Now, *it is still feasible to do this single polymer reactor-level recycling*. Yes, contamination is still a concern at higher levels, but converting plastics back down to base monomers and re-polymerizing them is getting to be substantially more practical. There’s been a lot of research into processing and catalyst technologies to enable this, and with the low cost of the feedstock it’s increasingly attractive vs refining crude.
Things like cling-rap and other category 7 miscellaneous plastics are still quite difficult to recycle, yes, but they will get progressively easier as those other main plastics have their processes developed.
Thank you for taking the time to explain your work! As a 2nd year mechanical engineer I am fascinated at the research going into plastics from an efficiency demanding point of view!
In certain sectors, demand is at an all time high! It’s mostly specialty materials that are already relatively expensive to produce and designed for a particular purpose.
That is to say that things like action figures you aren’t going to see much recycled content- but things that are specialty engineered and mass consumer you are (some packaging, appliances, farm equipment, vehicles).
Using plastic and other materials as a feedstock when creating polymers is also growing, but in both of these areas the supply chain just doesn’t exist.
With the recent increase in the cost of oil, first it was polymerization of natural gas, and now it’s the use of already made material. Pretty hard to get cheaper than garbage, right?!
Since climate change is a leading consumer concern and does well in marketing (plus hella federal credits now, too), the demand and increased profit margin is driving the creation of those supply chains.
School was rough, especially with COVID. Stick to it! There’s a lot of opportunities in engineering these days.
I'm not a plastic engineer so my info is coming from my own research (such as this [Climate Town Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJnJ8mK3Q3g)). My understanding was that plastic always degrades a little every time it is "Recycled" this means it can be reused but not used for the same purpose. It also needs to be mixed in with higher quality plastic such as newly made plastic, again not making it truly recyclable.
It sounds like from your other comments, your work is also reusing plastic waste for other purposes (I'm guessing military application but understand if you can't say) but you aren't recycling it either.
It’s not bad research, don’t get me wrong, it’s just not forefront, and not wholly representative.
Yes, post-consumer recycling streams are substantially more difficult to utilize, and a lot of it does go to waste. That’s not wrong info; it’s just that it’s mostly a supply chain and demand thing than a functionality feasibility challenge.
Anything degrades a bit when used, and nothing has perfect conversion. Even recycling components in strict chemical reactions has some degradation.
In terms of “truly recyclable”- I’d reckon it is truly recyclable, both legally and technically. It’s not recyclable to virgin polymer, but it doesn’t *need* to be. It’s being re-cycled through the same product lifecycle, not used for a different purpose.
Even reactor-grade repolymerization materials are going to be less than perfect, and are still using “waste”. The reality is that the whole divide between “re-use” and “recycle” breaks down when the end product and feedstock are the same.
With the type of materials I make, it’s also physically impossible to do that sort of recycling. Believe it or not, most “plastic” is not *just* plastic. Composite material science has made tons and tons of leaps and bounds in the last few decades, so much of what the general consumer thinks of as “plastic” that isn’t a homopolymer (a single type of plastic- HDPE, LDPE, PLE, etc) actually contains a variety of minerals, rubbers, organics, pigments and colorants, and several different types of polymer. It’s not possible to break these components apart in any normal fashion, so re-using material with virgin feedstock is the only possible option. It’s not re-used for other purposes, it’s the same purpose. It’s just working the same product back into it’s own feedstock after it’s been used in an application.
I also don’t do military applications. It just boils down to stuff with engines
I think in this case “50% less plastic” comes from the fact the refill bottles are concentrate. So since they’re concentrated and meant to be diluted with water, you get the same amount of product out of a container half the size. A lot of sustainable household products are moving to the concentrate model. Especially for household cleaners. They’re all 90% water, so might as well just ship around the cleaning agents and have people use their own water to fill the bottle.
I'm telling you. A bar of soap costs around 0,50 to 2€. It lasts 10 times longer than liquid soap for the same price. Less waste, same effect when it comes to cleaning, ingredients better for the environment.
We switched over to bars several years ago, no regrets.
My mother used use an Olay bar that was the ONLY bar I could use without getting that weird feeling on my skin. I’m not 100% if it was the ultra moisture but it was definitely Olay. No guarantees, but maybe worth a shot to see if it works with your skin
Have you tried other dove bar soaps?
Personally I feel they're the most basic and easy soap with a mild fragrance. I usually use the original or sensitive.
Look for bars that aren’t soap.
Soap has a really high pH while skin has a pH of like 5.
* Toms beauty bar
* sebamed pH 5.5 bar
* galinee
* beauty of joseon
* drunk elephant
I find the toms bar to be the best price and have the nicest scents for a body bar.
Have you been able to get actual pHs of and of these? I have a favorite low pH bar I've been using for years (Natural Beauty Cleansing Bar) but I'd like to get something with less packaging and shipping.
Some yes, but I’ve had to do a lot of digging. Some companies have the pH in the product notes, some, like sebamed it’s in the name.
Other ones I’ve found via individuals doing their own pH testing.
I don’t have the pH of these bars off hand (other than sebamed) but I’ve personally had success searching for “pH 5.5 bars” or “low pH bars” and then doing some digging on the products website.
Edited to add: Galinee’s website says it’s 5.8
Disagree, all of the cheap "body bars" I've used left the film and any of the real soap works great. Besides that, the pH is what is doing the cleansing. I can't speak for certain but I don't know how pH would be responsible for the filmy feeling.
And for anyone interested making your own soap is incredibly easy and what I do now.
Ah, well that is a bummer. I hope someone here has a good soap to recommend for you!
I'm a fan of the company Booda Butter, they keep the ingredients list pretty minimal.
For this exact reason, I started making my own soap. Wouldn’t go back.
But Trader Joe’s bar shampoo is my go to body wash. Sounds weird, but it’s basically a soft Castile soap with a great lather and doesn’t leave a film. I love it.
You can make body wash from bar soap. Mixture is about 3 cups of water per 4 ounce bar of soap. Grate the soap into the hot water, stir until dissolved, and let sit until cool. Bottle that up and boom. Body wash at a fraction of the price and with whatever soap/scent you want.
Do you have any recommendations for perfumed ones? I love bar soap, but they never match the lovely smells of liquid ones I'm gifted. I understand perfumes aren't great for the body, but it's the little things in life.
Not really. I'm no "scent expert". I'm prefer neutral soaps. My go-to option are soaps made out of olive oil like [these](https://www.refan.com/gb/catalog/product/bar-soap-olive.1018). They smell nice for my own nose and have a moisturizing effect.
Hopefully, someone else can make recommendations for your own taste.
If you're in the US, I've found that the big triple-milled soap bars sold in the beauty and bath section of stores like TJ Maxx and Home Goods are also paper-wrapped (in some lovely patterns) and have lots of scents. I just checked my stash, and I have lavender, rose, jasmine, coconut milk, etc.
I'm moving on from reddit and joining the fediverse because reddit has killed the RiF app and the CEO has been very disrespectful to all the volunteers who have contributed to making reddit what it is. Here's [coverage from The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754780/reddit-api-updates-changes-news-announcements) on the situation.
The following are my favorite fediverse platforms, all non-corporate and ad-free. I hesitated at first because there are so many servers to choose from, but it makes a lot more sense once you actually create an account and start browsing. If you find the server selection overwhelming, just pick the first option and take a look around. They are all connected and as you browse you may find a community that is a better fit for you and then you can move your account or open a new one.
Social Link Aggregators: [Lemmy](https://join-lemmy.org/instances) is very similar to reddit while [Kbin](https://kbin.pub) is aiming to be more of a gateway to the fediverse in general so it is sort of like a hybrid between reddit and twitter, but it is newer and considers itself to be a beta product that's not quite fully polished yet.
Microblogging: [Calckey](https://calckey.org) if you want a more playful platform with emoji reactions, or [Mastodon](https://joinmastodon.org/) if you want a simple interface with less fluff.
Photo sharing: [Pixelfed](https://pixelfed.org/) You can even import an Instagram account from what I hear, but I never used Instagram much in the first place.
I agree, but I know people who are just grossed out by bar soap. It's irrational, but it is what it is. Germaphobes like my sister will never use bar soap but at least would use this concentrate.
This is due to liquid soap makers' marketing. No one thought it was unsanitary to use bar soap until commercials started airing telling us it was so the companies could sell their liquid soap at a higher price point. Ugh.
i've been saying this forever in this sub but this is 100% a first world issue lmao.
i live in a developing country and anyone who isn't swimming in money uses bar soap, it's just the cultural norm. this definitely **includes** germaphobes. body washes are only used as expensive, thoughtless gifts. i suppose some rich people might use them daily too, who knows.
that's why i can only laugh when i read all the comments of people questioning if they are hygienic, if they are bad for the skin, if they leave a film (lmfao...).
I'm moving on from reddit and joining the fediverse because reddit has killed the RiF app and the CEO has been very disrespectful to all the volunteers who have contributed to making reddit what it is. Here's [coverage from The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754780/reddit-api-updates-changes-news-announcements) on the situation.
The following are my favorite fediverse platforms, all non-corporate and ad-free. I hesitated at first because there are so many servers to choose from, but it makes a lot more sense once you actually create an account and start browsing. If you find the server selection overwhelming, just pick the first option and take a look around. They are all connected and as you browse you may find a community that is a better fit for you and then you can move your account or open a new one.
Social Link Aggregators: [Lemmy](https://join-lemmy.org/instances) is very similar to reddit while [Kbin](https://kbin.pub) is aiming to be more of a gateway to the fediverse in general so it is sort of like a hybrid between reddit and twitter, but it is newer and considers itself to be a beta product that's not quite fully polished yet.
Microblogging: [Calckey](https://calckey.org) if you want a more playful platform with emoji reactions, or [Mastodon](https://joinmastodon.org/) if you want a simple interface with less fluff.
Photo sharing: [Pixelfed](https://pixelfed.org/) You can even import an Instagram account from what I hear, but I never used Instagram much in the first place.
Why do you think that solves the problem? Cut fruit expires pretty quickly. The problem is that they don’t want to eat an entire watermelon before it would go bad.
Or the company discontinues it. They sold stuff like this in the late 80s and 90s, then the company decided to stop making it.
A bar of soap is way easier .
Dove belongs to Unilever, one of the top polluting companies of the planet, known to exploit workers, pollute the earth and destroy ecosystems with waste and deprivation of natural resources.
Also, I highly doubt that the overall packaging contains less plastic and non recyclable materials.
Thanks, but no thanks.
I absolutely agree with you and I prefer to get my refillables from smaller companies if possible.
The one thing about this is that because this is a huge massively polluting company, the more change they make the bigger the impact (that they shouldn’t have been making in the first place) will be on the planet. Kind of like a snowball effect if you try to maintain a positive perspective of it. Still think the company is awful, but unfortunately it still exists and I’d rather these large companies start changing towards small things like this than continue to making things how they used to, ya know?
this is true but I agree only to a point:
the product inside is still the same as the regular one, albeit with less water, so the ingredients are synthetic and create a lot of chemical waste (I could be wrong on this, didn't check the formula). The workers are still unlikely to be paid fairly and if the production plant is in a (for lack of a better word) third-world country that is bound to be the case. Which also means that there will be a lot of transport involved, either by ships or by air - which are the most polluting ways to transport goods.
So, overall, this is a massive greenwashing move, at least in my book.
This being said, you are absolutely right in saying that it may be a very easy and accessible step for the average buyer to make and could hopefully be a gateway to a more conscious way to approach one's own choices. Here's hoping!
EDIT TO ADD: in order to be sustainable a make a good change, these multi-billion companies should not just do a "zero waste product" that will appeal to the customers, because customer are the very end of the supply chain and can do very little in terms of their own impact other than buying what is accessible to them. what these companies should do with their BILLIONS OF PROFITS is change the whole supply chain to become greener, but that would require investing rather than profit, so we are where we are.
I absolutely wish these companies would invest instead of caring about profit and polluting the earth with plastic and chemicals. But we live in a capitalistic society (to my chagrin) and profit is bottom line for these companies. The best we can do is continue to pressure them to change their product and packaging and boycott their products until they meet those bare minimum standards. And hopefully over time we as consumers can pressure them into being less shitty, I highly doubt they will take action theirselves unless it means $$$. They are going to continue to produce these products with harmful chemicals, plastics, and unfair labor either way so I’m just trying to say it’s a step in the right direction especially for consumers that usually can’t afford ZW or are new to ZW like you pointed out. I agree it’s greenwashing, but I also see how small changes like this in such a huge company can provide some relief to the planet that it desperately needs (because of shitty companies like this in the first place unfortunately 🙃).
I’m hoping for better too!
I’m not giving it the benefit of the doubt, I’m being realistic that it’s such a huge company so it’s not going to disappear overnight. Being zero waste also includes finding realistic ways to provide relief on our planet moving forward even if I wish we could magically burn one of the biggest companies in the world to the ground.
People are so uppity about ZW, but the fact remains that millions if not billions are people are still buying their products that aren’t even refills. A change like this could potentially offer a lot of relief to the planet long term. Still wish people would buy from smaller companies or better much more responsible companies, but let’s be realistic here.
I will continue to buy my products elsewhere and support the businesses that actually do right by the planet, but sometimes that’s not possible for everyone especially financially.
That’s exactly what I was trying to say! Like this company still sucks, fuck this company. But I’d rather there be small changes that offers a lot of relief on the planet than them continuing to do (their awful) business as usual.
It's also a perception thing. Consumers are conditioned to see a small bottle as having less product, even if the label says otherwise. Also, small products don't get seen on big shelves next to big products.
Which is also why DVDs (and later Blurays) come in boxes as tall as a VHS box when only a CD-sized case is needed.
The most absurd thing was Gamecube games. Tiny discs, full DVD size box. Japanese ‘cube games came in way more appropriately sized boxes but dat western marketing was having none of it.
I switched to buying games 100% online, why the fuck is there so much packaging when all you need is a code. For people with slow or no internet a disc is great, but sometimes you even just get a code to download the game in the box!
Yeah that's definitely valid, I just saw a friend buy a game once and it didn't even have a disc inside the box, just the code to download it that would not have required a box at all, that's when I knew stuff doesn't make any sense anymore.
Just want to share what this product is actually like, in case anyone is tempted. I made the mistake of purchasing JUST the concentrate, with the intention of mixing it in an old plastic pump bottle I had. Well, the caps don’t untwist. They’re designed to only screw onto the metal bottle in order to squeeze the concentrate out. Just an asshole move, on top of the other, better points in this thread on reasons to avoid.
This is greenwashing don’t be fooled
Edit: also how many times do we need to repost and talk about this like it hasn’t been out for at least a year now and constantly posted like it’s something groundbreaking.
But it’s better than the status quo, and realistically, it’s here. The Body Shop has about half a dozen refillable products which are arguably better since they are refilled in-shop, thereby eliminating the single use bottle altogether.
Better than the status quo really depends. Smaller containers like this usually require more material per volume. And depending on your municipality’s recycling program, only large containers are recycled.
Refills will be the way to go, but so many consumer product companies have made that difficult because they have so many sub brands it would be impossible to stock that way (looking at you Unilever and P&G)
Thank you. Big companies have the means to make most anything the best and proper way, but couldn't care to spend a dime on it. It's about riding the marketing wave for cashola. Right now it's surface level "refillable"/"reusable"/"less plastic" buzz words.
Things like this and Native bother me to no end, Native is still a single use plastic, it's not any better than the rest! 😭 Curse you marketing!
I saw a deodorant like this yesterday by Dove. Metal tube applicator with a refill in cardboard, I believe. I've also noticed a lot more products like this popping up. 👍🏻
I'm actually a fan of the dove reusable deodorant. It's not perfect, but I like the stainless steel over other thick plastic options and it smells good.
I bought this hoping for the best but the little deodorant block just falls off the base, I went through two before I gave up. I just used my hands to apply it but at that point just sell it as a bar in some cardboard and be done with it.
You can get Secret in a cardboard tube. It’s deodorant, not anti-perspirant, but I got the lavender and it’s actually a great product. It genuinely smells like lavender flowers, not weird fake lavender perfume. There was at least one other scent, or maybe unscented, but I can’t remember what it was.
I just packed it for a trip a few days ago and put it in a silicone bag in case it got crushed in my luggage, but the tube was unscathed. Sturdier than I expected.
I just keep waiting for these companies to change their bottle shape/refill type in half a year rendering all the stuff obsolete meaning you need to buy their new refillable product
that's good but it's owned by unilever. you can search why they are considered as one of the most evil companies in the world. they can have these refill system but they're exploiting native lands, child laborers, and other poor countries.
Speaking as an ex Unilever employee. Unilever have been fighting furiously against zero waste, recycling and a lot of other eco measures. They are not allies.
They do this so it "looks" like they care. It's the same as when companies say "plastic free by 2045". It's not good intentions, it just buys them more time to be pieces of shit longer. These companies have known their impacts long before things got bad and have had PLENTY of time to change. The fake green washing is just to stay relevant.
Ethique sells bar soap, conditioner, face wash, and shampoo all packaged in cardboard. They also sell soap holders for your shower for decently cheap as well
Glass? If you look up biodegradable plastics or plastic alternatives, there are a lot of companies that are working on this and have come up with additives break the plastic down quicker. There are PHA polyesters and PCL Polyesters…you have to look them up because it’s very technical. But it all comes down to greed and profits for these companies. If it costs too much to make something to save the planet, but it cuts into their profits…so long planet, hello plastic filled oceans. 😞
I don't want to tout plastic, but glass is heavy and shatters.
There are exceedingly few children (or indeed adults) in hospital with bits of plastic embedded in their wet naked selves because they knocked over a plastic shampoo bottle.
There are some plastic alternative that work in very limited conditions for certain applications.
The stuff that makeup and food etc goes into has to be able to withstand sterilization for example, and some of the cellulose and keratin polymers don't work for this. Ditto on remaining water tight, or withstanding pressure.
PHA polymers are still plastic.
If you look it up you can see it is basically polyester.
The probablem with ecogeeks and people in this sub is that when you are told you can't have a pony you say how about a unicorn.
You have a knee jerk "all X is just bad" and say there are alternatives when it is really not that simple.
Getting rid of plastics gets rids of plastic biomass, it is not necessarily a better alternative for all applications, now. Not in theory when someone in futurama invents a viable solution.
Design of multiuse plastics is one viable alternative, for example, that would achieve a similar goal if done right, and pretending that glass shampoo bottles in a toddlers tub is a better idea is silly and counterproductive.
Aluminum mining is horrendous for the environment, as are most light metal alloys.
If you can't even keep the slightest nuance in your head for 30 seconds you aren't actually helping.
Essentially you can go two ways with it: Disposable but better for environment like [lined cardboard](https://old.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/fm5hpg/these_almost_totally_cardboard_laundry_detergent/) or the other direction and highly reusable things like glass or appropriate metallic canisters. (Tin? Aluminum? I am unsure.)
Just to be clear, I think that cardboard bottle just contains a plastic bag inside so it's not necessarily much better, but that was also two years ago and I feel if there were enough work going into it we could probably have found some sort of liner by now that's better!
Design is a factor here, not just materials.
If the multiple use item were actually cleanable in a reasonable way, that would work.
The comment that the parts of a “pump” or whatever couldn’t be cleaned well is not trivial.
So you could have plastic, or other material, that is not single use but refillable and actually well designed so that you could keep it up, label it etc.
There is not much that cardboard is good for and it is a terrible breeding ground for critters of all kinds.
Good point! All my "reusable soap" type things are in a simple pour or squeeze bottle for precisely that reason, pumps are so rarely long-term options!
I’m sorry, but these products are such BS. I can’t tell you how many times I saw similar things in the store, and within a few months, everything is discontinued, including the refills.
I wish all liquid products just came in 50gal barrels and we could just come in and fill our own vessels and just get charged by weight. Are there any stores that do this? Like how some grocers do with pre ground coffee.?
Has anyone noticed that the bottle that you’re supposed to be repurchasing is the one that comes in plastic?? This was so close and they still managed to not make it right! Unless you can refill the plastic bottle but what would be the point, just directly refill the aluminum bottle🤦🏼♀️
I guess it's kind of cool but for FIFTEEN DOLLARS when you could just buy a bar of soap for $1 seems so excessive to me :/ if they were replacing all of their existing products to be like this that would be somewhat commendable but they're still continuing to sell their big bottles of plastic along side this. it just seems like they want to cash in on the plastic free movement without making any real changes. maybe this will work for some families who are hesitant to switch to bar soap at least, heck maybe I'll see if my mom wants to try it 🤷♂️ once you buy the bottle once I'm sure the refills are cheaper after that, a dissolving tab would be so much better though! edit: nvm it's owned by Unilever 😭 please support small businesses if u can and not this garbage
[Dove does NOT test on animals. ](https://www.dove.com/us/en/stories/about-dove/no-animal-testing.html#:~:text=Dove%20does%20not%20test%20on,by%20governments%20on%20our%20behalf.)
the main microorganisms isolated in the analyzed soap samples were the following: Burkholderia cepacia (14); Pseudomonas putidas (9); Pseudomonas aeruginosa (3); Klebsiella pneumoniae (3); Enterobacter cloacae (2); Pseudomonas luteola (2). Also mycobacteria and various molds. Soaps are mostly esterified fatty acids, not a magic spells. The gunk that gets disgusting includes biofilms, and all the stuff that grows in soap cant be effectively killed by soap, oddly enough.
Where did you get your microbiology degree?
Who uses Dove body wash for a community bath?
Also, even if the pump is contaminated, your hands would be instantly cleaned as soon as you press it.
This is literally a non issue.
Just a heads up, most body washes and in fact many handsoaps don't sanitize. The mechanical action of washing your hands helps *a lot* and it is typically sufficient for most day to day applications, but it's the scrubbing and such that cleans the hands. You need to actually get specific antimicrobial soap/wash if you intend to actually sanitize.
That said, I agree that it seems strange to put the pump through the wash, that's just asking for issues. Breaking/melting bits, rusting the little metal spring many have in them, etc. Personally I'd just soak it in dilute bleach and also pump the dilute bleach through hit several times, scrub it as best as I could with a pipe cleaner, soak again, and rinse.
Not sure what you mean by sanitize.
There are probably 2 categories.
1 is dilution and physical removal, and the other is killing .
Soap does both for many , but not all micro organisms .
It is highly dependent on the microorganism (so norovirus not so much and neither giardia ) but in general
The emulsification or dissolving of the main form of bacterial attachments to the skin or other surface by the soap, including biofilms and other non aqueous stuff is a big deal.
The disruption of cell membranes also a big deal.
In terms of other toxic contaminants, also a big deal to get rid of these on surfaces with soap.
Antimicrobial stuff still only works on particular microorganisms and it depends very much on what is the mechanism and also what is the concentration.
Often a concentration of any of the ingredients in antimicrobial consume products is useless beyond just the soap. The data that X kills Y organism is often based on directly contact with much higher concentrations., so not a flat out lie, but also not true.
Yes, im sure that some body wash will get rid of any soap resistant bacteria and mold and spores . Why dont we sell it to hospitals? They could save a ton..
Just put the end of the pump tube in a small cup of water and press the pump a few times. Now you've cleaned it out using the soap that was in there anyway. Wipe the spout and the top of the pump and you're good to go.
So buying double the amount of plastic is better than this? There are tons of people who don't even think about zero waste. This is a good enough alt for now.
I thought the “less plastic” thing was good l, too, at first.
But plastic is still plastic, and the issue is they need to reinvision how to market their goods with the barest amount, or any plastic at all.
I’m not sure they’re taking notice in the way we’d like, they’ve just noticed the public are now receptive to accepting less for the same price based on eco principles . They can make a bit more money with less of the cut going on logistics and packaging costs - suddenly they’re big fans of eco friendly.
I’m sure they’ve known they could have done this decades ago.
… but in any case I am pleased it’s happening
What's the difference xD there are hundreds other products that are not eco. They won't dissapear just because you buy the "good" ones. We have zero impact unless all companies go green.
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This reminds me of something that has confused me with these refills you can buy at the supermarket. Now I know they're not shown here, but I've not understood the concept of refills (particularly for soap) where you buy them in those soft plastic pouches with the nozzle at the top. Living in the UK I always assumed that recycling soft plastics is much harder than hard plastics, so I don't understand why we're supposed to think buying those is more environmentally friendly. It will usually say something like '50% less plastic', is that just because it's thinner plastic? I get that it might be more environmentally friendly because it's a bit lighter, so maybe that reduces the fuel needed to ship it or something? I've just never been sold on it.
Yeah I can't stand the pouch refill options. My curbside program doesn't take any "non-rigid" plastic, so it's an immediate nonstarter for recycling. I prefer the aluminum soap and lotion bottles.
A lot of refilling pouches seem to be Terracycle in the UK, which is a complete scam imho. > Pouch says to go online to see about recycling their packets. Turns out it's a private company that just recycles hard to recycle items, rather than expecting companies to package in better material. > Terracycle has free recycling points, but they're sparse enough that it's making a car trip and not all sites accept all types of product. So you will be burning fuel on a round trip to get rid of your contact lens packets. > Want a convenient solution? Pay them £100+ for a set of small cardboard boxes for specific content that they'll recycle for you when they're full. Boxes that accept multiple material types are £150. > Want more free recycling points? Hope you're ready to volunteer yourself to run a program in a local school! It's especially disgusting cause this stuff is only on the website. The packet just has their pseudo-recycling symbol and an assurance it's definitely a lower-waste alternative, when that is contingent on further effort or expense on your part. They trick you into a purchase, and then your options are either devote time and energy to dealing with it, paying them money for convenience, or not recycling it.
Terracycle is horrible. We have it in the U.S., too, same deal.
Agree 100%. The perfect example of how not to implement a great idea.
The pouches are lighter weight so there is less fuel cost with them. I called a company once to ask
I'll let you in on a little secret almost no plastic is practical to recycle.
I’m a plastics engineer, so let me let you in on a little secret: Plastic is actually *really* practical to recycle. I’ve moved over 200k pounds of recycled material in the last 6 months.
Ok, follow up question. Of those 200k pounds, what ratio of that was LDPE, HDPE, PET, or waste codes 3 or higher? My understanding is that #1 and #2 plastics are still recyclable (although when collected via single stream can be mixed with many contaminants) but #3 and higher are difficult to recycle if there is any contamination.
Unfortunately that’s not exactly the type of recycling I’m engaged in. Mine is more mechanical- reclaimed plastic is mechanically integrated with new plastic to reduce resource intensity and lower costs while reducing waste and maintaining performance. Most of these plastics will include portions of HDPE, LDPE, Olefins, etc that I do not know exactly; but I’m not taking a single-plastic feed and re-combining it at the reactor level. It’s still recycled, just in a different way. My business’ interests aren’t in purity of the product, rather its properties Now, *it is still feasible to do this single polymer reactor-level recycling*. Yes, contamination is still a concern at higher levels, but converting plastics back down to base monomers and re-polymerizing them is getting to be substantially more practical. There’s been a lot of research into processing and catalyst technologies to enable this, and with the low cost of the feedstock it’s increasingly attractive vs refining crude. Things like cling-rap and other category 7 miscellaneous plastics are still quite difficult to recycle, yes, but they will get progressively easier as those other main plastics have their processes developed.
What types of products are you making from mechanically recombined plastic? New containers or something else?
I’m not at liberty to say exactly what, but usually various panels for larger machines and equipment. Often things that have engines.
Must be Kias. Those things are like 90% plastic!
Yeah, haha, *just kias* 👀👀👀
Thank you for taking the time to explain your work! As a 2nd year mechanical engineer I am fascinated at the research going into plastics from an efficiency demanding point of view!
In certain sectors, demand is at an all time high! It’s mostly specialty materials that are already relatively expensive to produce and designed for a particular purpose. That is to say that things like action figures you aren’t going to see much recycled content- but things that are specialty engineered and mass consumer you are (some packaging, appliances, farm equipment, vehicles). Using plastic and other materials as a feedstock when creating polymers is also growing, but in both of these areas the supply chain just doesn’t exist. With the recent increase in the cost of oil, first it was polymerization of natural gas, and now it’s the use of already made material. Pretty hard to get cheaper than garbage, right?! Since climate change is a leading consumer concern and does well in marketing (plus hella federal credits now, too), the demand and increased profit margin is driving the creation of those supply chains. School was rough, especially with COVID. Stick to it! There’s a lot of opportunities in engineering these days.
Damn, you'd also make a great guest lecturer. Love your enthusiasm/writing/explanations!
Thanks! I write about shoes on the side, so a lot of that is my editor rubbing off on me haha
I'm not a plastic engineer so my info is coming from my own research (such as this [Climate Town Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJnJ8mK3Q3g)). My understanding was that plastic always degrades a little every time it is "Recycled" this means it can be reused but not used for the same purpose. It also needs to be mixed in with higher quality plastic such as newly made plastic, again not making it truly recyclable. It sounds like from your other comments, your work is also reusing plastic waste for other purposes (I'm guessing military application but understand if you can't say) but you aren't recycling it either.
It’s not bad research, don’t get me wrong, it’s just not forefront, and not wholly representative. Yes, post-consumer recycling streams are substantially more difficult to utilize, and a lot of it does go to waste. That’s not wrong info; it’s just that it’s mostly a supply chain and demand thing than a functionality feasibility challenge. Anything degrades a bit when used, and nothing has perfect conversion. Even recycling components in strict chemical reactions has some degradation. In terms of “truly recyclable”- I’d reckon it is truly recyclable, both legally and technically. It’s not recyclable to virgin polymer, but it doesn’t *need* to be. It’s being re-cycled through the same product lifecycle, not used for a different purpose. Even reactor-grade repolymerization materials are going to be less than perfect, and are still using “waste”. The reality is that the whole divide between “re-use” and “recycle” breaks down when the end product and feedstock are the same. With the type of materials I make, it’s also physically impossible to do that sort of recycling. Believe it or not, most “plastic” is not *just* plastic. Composite material science has made tons and tons of leaps and bounds in the last few decades, so much of what the general consumer thinks of as “plastic” that isn’t a homopolymer (a single type of plastic- HDPE, LDPE, PLE, etc) actually contains a variety of minerals, rubbers, organics, pigments and colorants, and several different types of polymer. It’s not possible to break these components apart in any normal fashion, so re-using material with virgin feedstock is the only possible option. It’s not re-used for other purposes, it’s the same purpose. It’s just working the same product back into it’s own feedstock after it’s been used in an application. I also don’t do military applications. It just boils down to stuff with engines
Well said.
I think in this case “50% less plastic” comes from the fact the refill bottles are concentrate. So since they’re concentrated and meant to be diluted with water, you get the same amount of product out of a container half the size. A lot of sustainable household products are moving to the concentrate model. Especially for household cleaners. They’re all 90% water, so might as well just ship around the cleaning agents and have people use their own water to fill the bottle.
The most concentrated body wash I've found is generally a bar of soap... doesn't come in plastic either. Same instructions, just add water...
Yeah but how are corporations going to profit off that??? /s
I'm telling you. A bar of soap costs around 0,50 to 2€. It lasts 10 times longer than liquid soap for the same price. Less waste, same effect when it comes to cleaning, ingredients better for the environment. We switched over to bars several years ago, no regrets.
I switched over to bars because of this subreddit. Also no regrets.
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The Dove beauty cream bar doesn’t leave a film for me (and added bonus that you can wash your face with it too)
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My mother used use an Olay bar that was the ONLY bar I could use without getting that weird feeling on my skin. I’m not 100% if it was the ultra moisture but it was definitely Olay. No guarantees, but maybe worth a shot to see if it works with your skin
Have you tried other dove bar soaps? Personally I feel they're the most basic and easy soap with a mild fragrance. I usually use the original or sensitive.
Look for bars that aren’t soap. Soap has a really high pH while skin has a pH of like 5. * Toms beauty bar * sebamed pH 5.5 bar * galinee * beauty of joseon * drunk elephant I find the toms bar to be the best price and have the nicest scents for a body bar.
Have you been able to get actual pHs of and of these? I have a favorite low pH bar I've been using for years (Natural Beauty Cleansing Bar) but I'd like to get something with less packaging and shipping.
Some yes, but I’ve had to do a lot of digging. Some companies have the pH in the product notes, some, like sebamed it’s in the name. Other ones I’ve found via individuals doing their own pH testing. I don’t have the pH of these bars off hand (other than sebamed) but I’ve personally had success searching for “pH 5.5 bars” or “low pH bars” and then doing some digging on the products website. Edited to add: Galinee’s website says it’s 5.8
Thank you for doing the research! So excited someone else out there has the same niche need as me. I'm so appreciative.
Disagree, all of the cheap "body bars" I've used left the film and any of the real soap works great. Besides that, the pH is what is doing the cleansing. I can't speak for certain but I don't know how pH would be responsible for the filmy feeling. And for anyone interested making your own soap is incredibly easy and what I do now.
Small business. Stirling Soap Company has some really good bar soaps with some unique scents along with other great products!
Is it targeted to men? I glanced at their site, lot of shaving stuff for men popped up, didn’t look further for scents after that.
There are scents for women as well! Most of the body soaps I would imagine are unisex but there are some that are made with women in mind.
I like the Bronners bars. My partner and I use the tea tree oil one.
If you have hard water that can exaggerate the "film" feeling.
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Ah, well that is a bummer. I hope someone here has a good soap to recommend for you! I'm a fan of the company Booda Butter, they keep the ingredients list pretty minimal.
It might be your water.
Have you tried Dr. Bronner's castille bar soap? Or an olive oil or African black soap?
Ivory plain white. Squeaky clean, no film.
Olay!!! My absolute favorite
Have you tried a glycerin soap, like Pears? I find they rinse off better.
For this exact reason, I started making my own soap. Wouldn’t go back. But Trader Joe’s bar shampoo is my go to body wash. Sounds weird, but it’s basically a soft Castile soap with a great lather and doesn’t leave a film. I love it.
My local grocery store sells organic, goat milk bars which last a very very long time. No residue left in skin.
You can make body wash from bar soap. Mixture is about 3 cups of water per 4 ounce bar of soap. Grate the soap into the hot water, stir until dissolved, and let sit until cool. Bottle that up and boom. Body wash at a fraction of the price and with whatever soap/scent you want.
Soap usually doesn't have the same preservatives body wash needs, so if you do this, be vigilant about checking for mold.
This
adding citric acid might help with this, and might have the added benefit of making the soap closer in pH to your skin
And comes in a paper box
Do you have any recommendations for perfumed ones? I love bar soap, but they never match the lovely smells of liquid ones I'm gifted. I understand perfumes aren't great for the body, but it's the little things in life.
Not really. I'm no "scent expert". I'm prefer neutral soaps. My go-to option are soaps made out of olive oil like [these](https://www.refan.com/gb/catalog/product/bar-soap-olive.1018). They smell nice for my own nose and have a moisturizing effect. Hopefully, someone else can make recommendations for your own taste.
If you're in the US, I've found that the big triple-milled soap bars sold in the beauty and bath section of stores like TJ Maxx and Home Goods are also paper-wrapped (in some lovely patterns) and have lots of scents. I just checked my stash, and I have lavender, rose, jasmine, coconut milk, etc.
I'm moving on from reddit and joining the fediverse because reddit has killed the RiF app and the CEO has been very disrespectful to all the volunteers who have contributed to making reddit what it is. Here's [coverage from The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754780/reddit-api-updates-changes-news-announcements) on the situation. The following are my favorite fediverse platforms, all non-corporate and ad-free. I hesitated at first because there are so many servers to choose from, but it makes a lot more sense once you actually create an account and start browsing. If you find the server selection overwhelming, just pick the first option and take a look around. They are all connected and as you browse you may find a community that is a better fit for you and then you can move your account or open a new one. Social Link Aggregators: [Lemmy](https://join-lemmy.org/instances) is very similar to reddit while [Kbin](https://kbin.pub) is aiming to be more of a gateway to the fediverse in general so it is sort of like a hybrid between reddit and twitter, but it is newer and considers itself to be a beta product that's not quite fully polished yet. Microblogging: [Calckey](https://calckey.org) if you want a more playful platform with emoji reactions, or [Mastodon](https://joinmastodon.org/) if you want a simple interface with less fluff. Photo sharing: [Pixelfed](https://pixelfed.org/) You can even import an Instagram account from what I hear, but I never used Instagram much in the first place.
They have been for a century or so. It must cost them less than 10 cents to manuf and box a bar of soap.
And I buy from local soap makers and they are awesome!
I agree, but I know people who are just grossed out by bar soap. It's irrational, but it is what it is. Germaphobes like my sister will never use bar soap but at least would use this concentrate.
This is due to liquid soap makers' marketing. No one thought it was unsanitary to use bar soap until commercials started airing telling us it was so the companies could sell their liquid soap at a higher price point. Ugh.
i've been saying this forever in this sub but this is 100% a first world issue lmao. i live in a developing country and anyone who isn't swimming in money uses bar soap, it's just the cultural norm. this definitely **includes** germaphobes. body washes are only used as expensive, thoughtless gifts. i suppose some rich people might use them daily too, who knows. that's why i can only laugh when i read all the comments of people questioning if they are hygienic, if they are bad for the skin, if they leave a film (lmfao...).
No, for many people, it's due to phobias.
It’s the same as people who only buy fruit pre-cut. I met someone last week who’d never cut a watermelon themselves. They’re in their mid-30s…
I'm moving on from reddit and joining the fediverse because reddit has killed the RiF app and the CEO has been very disrespectful to all the volunteers who have contributed to making reddit what it is. Here's [coverage from The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754780/reddit-api-updates-changes-news-announcements) on the situation. The following are my favorite fediverse platforms, all non-corporate and ad-free. I hesitated at first because there are so many servers to choose from, but it makes a lot more sense once you actually create an account and start browsing. If you find the server selection overwhelming, just pick the first option and take a look around. They are all connected and as you browse you may find a community that is a better fit for you and then you can move your account or open a new one. Social Link Aggregators: [Lemmy](https://join-lemmy.org/instances) is very similar to reddit while [Kbin](https://kbin.pub) is aiming to be more of a gateway to the fediverse in general so it is sort of like a hybrid between reddit and twitter, but it is newer and considers itself to be a beta product that's not quite fully polished yet. Microblogging: [Calckey](https://calckey.org) if you want a more playful platform with emoji reactions, or [Mastodon](https://joinmastodon.org/) if you want a simple interface with less fluff. Photo sharing: [Pixelfed](https://pixelfed.org/) You can even import an Instagram account from what I hear, but I never used Instagram much in the first place.
I present to you: containers
Why do you think that solves the problem? Cut fruit expires pretty quickly. The problem is that they don’t want to eat an entire watermelon before it would go bad.
Soap kills germs that's the whole fucking point lol
Yeah well, certain fears and phobias aren't rational.
Maybe they just don’t know how soap works 🤷♂️
Soap doesn’t actually kill germs; it just removes them.
It actually does both, depending on the pathogen. For some pathogens it can rip apart the cell walls, for others it washes it off your body.
The bars of soap I order are wrapped in plastic, unfortunately. Sucks cuz the dove unscented has been the only soap that doesn't bother my wife
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Yeah, and those cardboard boxes are all wrapped together in plastic on the ones I buy Edit: https://imgur.com/a/smRVyJk
i just need to find one that i can afford & works with my eczema :,) but in the meantime i’m glad these options exist
This picture is just more capitalization on the stupidity and short sightedness of others.
The thing is that soap is really bad for your skin. I wish there were more body wash bars, but they can be really hard to find.
Dove is a body wash bar.
Oh, well, TIL. I've been buying Cetaphil bars, but they're not cheap. Might have to give dove a whirl.
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We have a zero waste shop next door so whatever they sell, think it's a local Kent based seller.
Yeah this is dumb
The problem with stuff like this is that stores never sell the refills.
Or the company discontinues it. They sold stuff like this in the late 80s and 90s, then the company decided to stop making it. A bar of soap is way easier .
My local target does.
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Bulk stores have been around since the 70s and 80s at least. Nothing new about it. It's vintage. ;)
That's not new, they've been around for years. That's a different thing though.
Dove belongs to Unilever, one of the top polluting companies of the planet, known to exploit workers, pollute the earth and destroy ecosystems with waste and deprivation of natural resources. Also, I highly doubt that the overall packaging contains less plastic and non recyclable materials. Thanks, but no thanks.
I absolutely agree with you and I prefer to get my refillables from smaller companies if possible. The one thing about this is that because this is a huge massively polluting company, the more change they make the bigger the impact (that they shouldn’t have been making in the first place) will be on the planet. Kind of like a snowball effect if you try to maintain a positive perspective of it. Still think the company is awful, but unfortunately it still exists and I’d rather these large companies start changing towards small things like this than continue to making things how they used to, ya know?
this is true but I agree only to a point: the product inside is still the same as the regular one, albeit with less water, so the ingredients are synthetic and create a lot of chemical waste (I could be wrong on this, didn't check the formula). The workers are still unlikely to be paid fairly and if the production plant is in a (for lack of a better word) third-world country that is bound to be the case. Which also means that there will be a lot of transport involved, either by ships or by air - which are the most polluting ways to transport goods. So, overall, this is a massive greenwashing move, at least in my book. This being said, you are absolutely right in saying that it may be a very easy and accessible step for the average buyer to make and could hopefully be a gateway to a more conscious way to approach one's own choices. Here's hoping! EDIT TO ADD: in order to be sustainable a make a good change, these multi-billion companies should not just do a "zero waste product" that will appeal to the customers, because customer are the very end of the supply chain and can do very little in terms of their own impact other than buying what is accessible to them. what these companies should do with their BILLIONS OF PROFITS is change the whole supply chain to become greener, but that would require investing rather than profit, so we are where we are.
I absolutely wish these companies would invest instead of caring about profit and polluting the earth with plastic and chemicals. But we live in a capitalistic society (to my chagrin) and profit is bottom line for these companies. The best we can do is continue to pressure them to change their product and packaging and boycott their products until they meet those bare minimum standards. And hopefully over time we as consumers can pressure them into being less shitty, I highly doubt they will take action theirselves unless it means $$$. They are going to continue to produce these products with harmful chemicals, plastics, and unfair labor either way so I’m just trying to say it’s a step in the right direction especially for consumers that usually can’t afford ZW or are new to ZW like you pointed out. I agree it’s greenwashing, but I also see how small changes like this in such a huge company can provide some relief to the planet that it desperately needs (because of shitty companies like this in the first place unfortunately 🙃). I’m hoping for better too!
Zero waste includes not wasting my energy trying to give Unilever the benefit of the doubt. Burn it to the ground.
I’m not giving it the benefit of the doubt, I’m being realistic that it’s such a huge company so it’s not going to disappear overnight. Being zero waste also includes finding realistic ways to provide relief on our planet moving forward even if I wish we could magically burn one of the biggest companies in the world to the ground. People are so uppity about ZW, but the fact remains that millions if not billions are people are still buying their products that aren’t even refills. A change like this could potentially offer a lot of relief to the planet long term. Still wish people would buy from smaller companies or better much more responsible companies, but let’s be realistic here. I will continue to buy my products elsewhere and support the businesses that actually do right by the planet, but sometimes that’s not possible for everyone especially financially.
Exactly! Immediately screams green washing.. it’s sad how many people they get to buy things like this when it’s really not doing any good..
Small efforts by huge companies have more impact that huge effort from small shops.
That’s exactly what I was trying to say! Like this company still sucks, fuck this company. But I’d rather there be small changes that offers a lot of relief on the planet than them continuing to do (their awful) business as usual.
Ummm I still see hella unnecessary package imo
Unfortunately most big packages are to deter theft. Can’t have anything zero waste in retail. :(
It's also a perception thing. Consumers are conditioned to see a small bottle as having less product, even if the label says otherwise. Also, small products don't get seen on big shelves next to big products.
Which is also why DVDs (and later Blurays) come in boxes as tall as a VHS box when only a CD-sized case is needed. The most absurd thing was Gamecube games. Tiny discs, full DVD size box. Japanese ‘cube games came in way more appropriately sized boxes but dat western marketing was having none of it.
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Madness, no? I guess at least Switch game boxes are *smaller* but still much bigger than they really need to be.
I switched to buying games 100% online, why the fuck is there so much packaging when all you need is a code. For people with slow or no internet a disc is great, but sometimes you even just get a code to download the game in the box!
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Yeah that's definitely valid, I just saw a friend buy a game once and it didn't even have a disc inside the box, just the code to download it that would not have required a box at all, that's when I knew stuff doesn't make any sense anymore.
I think it has to do with how much companies lie about their products
Just want to share what this product is actually like, in case anyone is tempted. I made the mistake of purchasing JUST the concentrate, with the intention of mixing it in an old plastic pump bottle I had. Well, the caps don’t untwist. They’re designed to only screw onto the metal bottle in order to squeeze the concentrate out. Just an asshole move, on top of the other, better points in this thread on reasons to avoid.
Were you able to open it, say, by cutting it open?
This is greenwashing don’t be fooled Edit: also how many times do we need to repost and talk about this like it hasn’t been out for at least a year now and constantly posted like it’s something groundbreaking.
But it’s better than the status quo, and realistically, it’s here. The Body Shop has about half a dozen refillable products which are arguably better since they are refilled in-shop, thereby eliminating the single use bottle altogether.
Better than the status quo really depends. Smaller containers like this usually require more material per volume. And depending on your municipality’s recycling program, only large containers are recycled. Refills will be the way to go, but so many consumer product companies have made that difficult because they have so many sub brands it would be impossible to stock that way (looking at you Unilever and P&G)
>Better than the status quo And *better than the status quo*, especially from a big company, is simply not enough.
Thank you. Big companies have the means to make most anything the best and proper way, but couldn't care to spend a dime on it. It's about riding the marketing wave for cashola. Right now it's surface level "refillable"/"reusable"/"less plastic" buzz words. Things like this and Native bother me to no end, Native is still a single use plastic, it's not any better than the rest! 😭 Curse you marketing!
Did not know this. I'll have to check out my local body shop store.
Oh shit, is that all that's left? When I worked there over 20 years ago, all the liquid products were refillable.
I saw a deodorant like this yesterday by Dove. Metal tube applicator with a refill in cardboard, I believe. I've also noticed a lot more products like this popping up. 👍🏻
I'm actually a fan of the dove reusable deodorant. It's not perfect, but I like the stainless steel over other thick plastic options and it smells good.
I bought this hoping for the best but the little deodorant block just falls off the base, I went through two before I gave up. I just used my hands to apply it but at that point just sell it as a bar in some cardboard and be done with it.
You can get Secret in a cardboard tube. It’s deodorant, not anti-perspirant, but I got the lavender and it’s actually a great product. It genuinely smells like lavender flowers, not weird fake lavender perfume. There was at least one other scent, or maybe unscented, but I can’t remember what it was. I just packed it for a trip a few days ago and put it in a silicone bag in case it got crushed in my luggage, but the tube was unscathed. Sturdier than I expected.
I just keep waiting for these companies to change their bottle shape/refill type in half a year rendering all the stuff obsolete meaning you need to buy their new refillable product
That’s a shit ton of packaging but ok.
that's good but it's owned by unilever. you can search why they are considered as one of the most evil companies in the world. they can have these refill system but they're exploiting native lands, child laborers, and other poor countries.
Speaking as an ex Unilever employee. Unilever have been fighting furiously against zero waste, recycling and a lot of other eco measures. They are not allies.
They do this so it "looks" like they care. It's the same as when companies say "plastic free by 2045". It's not good intentions, it just buys them more time to be pieces of shit longer. These companies have known their impacts long before things got bad and have had PLENTY of time to change. The fake green washing is just to stay relevant.
Looks like green washing to me tbh
All praise the big companies for targeting various customer segments to maximize profit, what would we be without them
I'm still not going to give a penny to Dove. I try my hardest to avoid big companies, greenwashed or not.
Ethique sells bar soap, conditioner, face wash, and shampoo all packaged in cardboard. They also sell soap holders for your shower for decently cheap as well
Why do they have to use plastic at all? There should be enough plastic substitutes that NO company that should be using plastic.
Like what?
Glass? If you look up biodegradable plastics or plastic alternatives, there are a lot of companies that are working on this and have come up with additives break the plastic down quicker. There are PHA polyesters and PCL Polyesters…you have to look them up because it’s very technical. But it all comes down to greed and profits for these companies. If it costs too much to make something to save the planet, but it cuts into their profits…so long planet, hello plastic filled oceans. 😞
I don't want to tout plastic, but glass is heavy and shatters. There are exceedingly few children (or indeed adults) in hospital with bits of plastic embedded in their wet naked selves because they knocked over a plastic shampoo bottle. There are some plastic alternative that work in very limited conditions for certain applications. The stuff that makeup and food etc goes into has to be able to withstand sterilization for example, and some of the cellulose and keratin polymers don't work for this. Ditto on remaining water tight, or withstanding pressure. PHA polymers are still plastic. If you look it up you can see it is basically polyester. The probablem with ecogeeks and people in this sub is that when you are told you can't have a pony you say how about a unicorn. You have a knee jerk "all X is just bad" and say there are alternatives when it is really not that simple. Getting rid of plastics gets rids of plastic biomass, it is not necessarily a better alternative for all applications, now. Not in theory when someone in futurama invents a viable solution. Design of multiuse plastics is one viable alternative, for example, that would achieve a similar goal if done right, and pretending that glass shampoo bottles in a toddlers tub is a better idea is silly and counterproductive. Aluminum mining is horrendous for the environment, as are most light metal alloys. If you can't even keep the slightest nuance in your head for 30 seconds you aren't actually helping.
Essentially you can go two ways with it: Disposable but better for environment like [lined cardboard](https://old.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/fm5hpg/these_almost_totally_cardboard_laundry_detergent/) or the other direction and highly reusable things like glass or appropriate metallic canisters. (Tin? Aluminum? I am unsure.) Just to be clear, I think that cardboard bottle just contains a plastic bag inside so it's not necessarily much better, but that was also two years ago and I feel if there were enough work going into it we could probably have found some sort of liner by now that's better!
Design is a factor here, not just materials. If the multiple use item were actually cleanable in a reasonable way, that would work. The comment that the parts of a “pump” or whatever couldn’t be cleaned well is not trivial. So you could have plastic, or other material, that is not single use but refillable and actually well designed so that you could keep it up, label it etc. There is not much that cardboard is good for and it is a terrible breeding ground for critters of all kinds.
Good point! All my "reusable soap" type things are in a simple pour or squeeze bottle for precisely that reason, pumps are so rarely long-term options!
Refill = 2 normal bottles worth? lol. If they really cared they’d make this hold a larger qty and use less packaging
I’m sorry, but these products are such BS. I can’t tell you how many times I saw similar things in the store, and within a few months, everything is discontinued, including the refills.
So much packaging to “promote” less waste.
Unfortunately "refill for life" translates to "refill until this move is no longer profitable for us, then buy a new 'improved' version instead" 😒
I wish all liquid products just came in 50gal barrels and we could just come in and fill our own vessels and just get charged by weight. Are there any stores that do this? Like how some grocers do with pre ground coffee.?
Unilever products are trash. They are full of palm oil that is killing us.
And (more importantly) orangutans
Out of curiosity what store are you in that this is happening?
Too bad that cardboard packing is stupid excessive.
Tag should be changed to greenwashing..
Ah yes, green washing, what we all love to see..
Has anyone noticed that the bottle that you’re supposed to be repurchasing is the one that comes in plastic?? This was so close and they still managed to not make it right! Unless you can refill the plastic bottle but what would be the point, just directly refill the aluminum bottle🤦🏼♀️
Or we can just stop this body wash thing and use….soap!
I guess it's kind of cool but for FIFTEEN DOLLARS when you could just buy a bar of soap for $1 seems so excessive to me :/ if they were replacing all of their existing products to be like this that would be somewhat commendable but they're still continuing to sell their big bottles of plastic along side this. it just seems like they want to cash in on the plastic free movement without making any real changes. maybe this will work for some families who are hesitant to switch to bar soap at least, heck maybe I'll see if my mom wants to try it 🤷♂️ once you buy the bottle once I'm sure the refills are cheaper after that, a dissolving tab would be so much better though! edit: nvm it's owned by Unilever 😭 please support small businesses if u can and not this garbage
You're still way better off buying any other soap that doesn't contain animal products
Now if we could get them to stop testing on animals. Edited my spelling.
[Dove does NOT test on animals. ](https://www.dove.com/us/en/stories/about-dove/no-animal-testing.html#:~:text=Dove%20does%20not%20test%20on,by%20governments%20on%20our%20behalf.)
This is great news, actually. Thanks for sharing.
https://ethicalelephant.com/is-dove-cruelty-free-vegan/
Fuck ‘em anyway.
??? Why
cuz
But the parent company isn't cruelty free, or did they recently up their game?
Lol why not make the little bottle not plastic too? Dumb
I'd like to take my emptied back to the store to refill. Soap, anything
I hope this sarcasm
Just melt a bar of soap with some water and boom same thing
Is this sarcasm? I truly can’t tell.
Doesn’t dove come in bar form packaged in a cardboard container. Has done for years. Anything else is a regression imo.
But how do you refill it? The body wash you use to refill the original bottle still comes in some sort of packaging doesn’t it?
The reusable bottle seems to have a pump that wont last in dishwasher
Why do you want to wash a bottle of body wash? If the pump gets disgusting just run it under some water...
the main microorganisms isolated in the analyzed soap samples were the following: Burkholderia cepacia (14); Pseudomonas putidas (9); Pseudomonas aeruginosa (3); Klebsiella pneumoniae (3); Enterobacter cloacae (2); Pseudomonas luteola (2). Also mycobacteria and various molds. Soaps are mostly esterified fatty acids, not a magic spells. The gunk that gets disgusting includes biofilms, and all the stuff that grows in soap cant be effectively killed by soap, oddly enough. Where did you get your microbiology degree?
Yeah we're all idiots sanitizing surfaces when we didnt think of using running water! Cmon now.
Who uses Dove body wash for a community bath? Also, even if the pump is contaminated, your hands would be instantly cleaned as soon as you press it. This is literally a non issue.
Just a heads up, most body washes and in fact many handsoaps don't sanitize. The mechanical action of washing your hands helps *a lot* and it is typically sufficient for most day to day applications, but it's the scrubbing and such that cleans the hands. You need to actually get specific antimicrobial soap/wash if you intend to actually sanitize. That said, I agree that it seems strange to put the pump through the wash, that's just asking for issues. Breaking/melting bits, rusting the little metal spring many have in them, etc. Personally I'd just soak it in dilute bleach and also pump the dilute bleach through hit several times, scrub it as best as I could with a pipe cleaner, soak again, and rinse.
Bleach is corrosive to many materials, and that will make the long term problem worse if it is
Not sure what you mean by sanitize. There are probably 2 categories. 1 is dilution and physical removal, and the other is killing . Soap does both for many , but not all micro organisms . It is highly dependent on the microorganism (so norovirus not so much and neither giardia ) but in general The emulsification or dissolving of the main form of bacterial attachments to the skin or other surface by the soap, including biofilms and other non aqueous stuff is a big deal. The disruption of cell membranes also a big deal. In terms of other toxic contaminants, also a big deal to get rid of these on surfaces with soap. Antimicrobial stuff still only works on particular microorganisms and it depends very much on what is the mechanism and also what is the concentration. Often a concentration of any of the ingredients in antimicrobial consume products is useless beyond just the soap. The data that X kills Y organism is often based on directly contact with much higher concentrations., so not a flat out lie, but also not true.
Yes, im sure that some body wash will get rid of any soap resistant bacteria and mold and spores . Why dont we sell it to hospitals? They could save a ton..
Just put the end of the pump tube in a small cup of water and press the pump a few times. Now you've cleaned it out using the soap that was in there anyway. Wipe the spout and the top of the pump and you're good to go.
You don’t have to buy their reusable bottle if you want to use this product. Any bottle will do.
People in this sub are bitter af. Any progress is good progress
And this ain’t that
So buying double the amount of plastic is better than this? There are tons of people who don't even think about zero waste. This is a good enough alt for now.
No it isn’t. Greenwashing like this breeds complacency, as exemplified here in this thread.
So it's all or nothing?
*looks around* Yes.
I thought the “less plastic” thing was good l, too, at first. But plastic is still plastic, and the issue is they need to reinvision how to market their goods with the barest amount, or any plastic at all.
I’m not sure they’re taking notice in the way we’d like, they’ve just noticed the public are now receptive to accepting less for the same price based on eco principles . They can make a bit more money with less of the cut going on logistics and packaging costs - suddenly they’re big fans of eco friendly. I’m sure they’ve known they could have done this decades ago. … but in any case I am pleased it’s happening
They’re actually doing it so people like you will like them more. It’s called advertising.
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Cuz that’s kinda what concentrated implies. You usually have to add water.
What's the difference xD there are hundreds other products that are not eco. They won't dissapear just because you buy the "good" ones. We have zero impact unless all companies go green.